Yes, the book was like that, too. Unprepossessing little bastards.

I'll bite. Which movie are you talking about?

I agree -- I didn't give a darn about any of the kids, or other characters. Unlike LOTR.

I also very much disliked the anti-intellectualism / anti-reality-based nature. Not preparing kids for Catholicism, but for faith, in general.

It's been a long time since I read the books, but I don't remember being particularly sympathetic with the kids. That said, I still loved the books---what entertains about Narnia is the world of Narnia (at least for me).

Haven't read the books since I was a kid. I do remember, however, I was sad when the older kids couldn't return because they were, well, too old. So, they were portrayed with at least enough depth to garner the affection of an 8 or 9 year old kid.

Wasn't bad? It was horrible. The acting was terrible. The special effects were amateurish at best. Don't even let me get started on the costumes. Did they need to dress like the bumbling Knight from Dragon's Lair? The music, blah. The editing was crap. I didn't know what the heck was going on and read the book. The older kid at various points in the movie looked like he was going to make out with his sister, his brother, and even the damn CG lion. Like I said in a previous post, worse than Mosquito Coast. Oh, and my popcorn was stale!

Compare this movie to The Never Ending Story or Something Wicked This Way Comes. It doesn't hold up.

I still haven't seen last year's "beloved children's classic," Polar Express...which I gather was based on some "classic" from ten or fifteen years ago; at least the CS Lewis stuff goes back enough decades to be considered for classic status.

As to that other movie, if they retitle it as "Brownback Mountain" it may sell in Kansas.

The book was very much like that. All seven of them, actually. The same kids were in Prince Caspian and they seemed much smarter and harder-nosed. Maybe it took Lewis a while to warm up to them, too.

It's been a very long time, but, yeah, the two youngest were more interesting at the beginning. I read them out of sequence - and I read them once, only. By the time you get to "The Last Battle," the allegory is beginning to press very heavily; I was moved, but I also resented the pushiness.
Reading Tolkien at the same age was quite different - he very explicitly eschewed allegory, and left many obstacles in the path of anyone who might want to force the issue. No exemplary little islands, as in "Voyage of the Dawn Treader", to stand for schools of (erroneous) thought, or heresy. Still fun, but the more you know about history, the cleverer it gets, and for a fantasy, clever is not a compliment.

Whether or not Middle America™ is ready for a movie about gay cowboys.

Perhaps if it came in a plain, brown wrapper?
.

I don't think you were supposed to develope much affection for the kids per se -- they were just there so that you could catch a ride to this amazing place, especially since they kind of turn into kings & queeens overnight without any development at all.

The best of the lot I think is A Horse and His Boy, precisely because there are no English kids running around -- Lewis could get completely into the world without touching ours at all.

Well, two gay cowgirls maybe . . .

Was the book like that too? I don't remember.

Yes.

This is a characteristic of all of CS Lewis's writings.

Stories? interesting. Settings, fascinating. Background/culture, richly detailed. Characters? yawn.

Yes, yes, I think everyone who lives or works near a computer has been fully informed by now of the contempt felt for the works of C.S. Lewis by every blogger, commenter, columnist and friend and relative thereof in his or her precocious youth. Thank you for contributing.

Well, two gay cowgirls maybe . .

Recent events in these threads lead me to believe this would be a blockbuster.

Gay cowboys? George Strait seemed happy in that movie he made and nobody cared, what's the big deal?

I saw the previews of the 'gay cowboy' movie. It looked real interesting and cutting edge. Having said that, I doubt I will go to the movies to see it. Does make one wonder about being 'partners' in the old cowboy movies.

Whether or not Middle America™ is ready for a movie about gay cowboys. The answer is almost certainly no, so let's move on, shall we?

I am currently developing a movie about a shepherd and his sheep. Where can I find funding?

I am the only one to think that nowadays, in the world of cutting-edge technological advances, that most of us are more or less becoming lemmings, minions without brain.

Stamp a movie as a Christian movie, and all the people in the world will ape that the movie must be good and wholesome.

Sheesh !

Recent events in these threads lead me to believe this would be a blockbuster.

Yes, just like Wild Things, Wild things 2 and Wild Things: Diamonds in the Rough.

Whether or not Middle America™ is ready for a movie about gay cowboys.

I'm sorry, but have you seen "Red River"? Gayest. Western. Ever. Especially that scene where Montgomery Clift and the other cowboy are admiring each other's, uh, revolvers?

Are you really a whitehouse reporter? I mean the url says washington monthly and all, but I don't see you on CSPAN.

Yeah... what's that Gay cowboy movie called....

'Bareback Mountain' or sumpin' like that?

Uh...be careful using the word "ape" in the same sentence as the word "Christian." It brings back bad evolution-related memories, especially for those from Kansas or in love with [Un]Intelligent Design!

Well, two gay cowgirls maybe . .

As long as they wear the cowboy hat and boots. Just the cowboy hat and boots. Well, OK, maybe some chaps. And spurs. And if there's some lassoing involved as well....

My God, is it hot in here? Somebody open a window!

"...was that you never really develop any affection for the children as the movie progresses. Was the book like that too? I don't remember."

Just read the whole series to my 7-yr-old, and in the first book I figured Eustance provided the id that the other kids weren't allowed to express.

As a de facto atheist, the deism of the Narnia books don't bother me too much because Lewis' religiosity has a mystical aspect that keeps it from becoming a strict, life-denying code.

What's keeping me from taking my kids to the movie is that reviews reveal an emphasis on the book's violence, and I don't want to support Anschutz' didactic conservative agenda.

I just don't get the attraction to C.S. Lewis (bet you thought I was going to say cowboys). I don't think Narnia is remotely interesting: it's little more than a hodge-podge of familiar animals (good guys are the animals we like, bad guys are those we don't) and the usual mythological beasts. The narrative and setting are obviously cardboard props for thinly veiled symbolism. It doesn't add up to much of an allegory -- pretty second-rate in my opinion.

Unlike many, I don't have a problem with what C.S. Lewis was trying to do: it's just I can't ignore the fact that his drinking buddy, Tolien, was in a totally different class. It's like comparing Grisham with one of the Russians.

I've read the books again to my kids, and they seem so -- light. Interstingly, even as youngsters, they knew Tolkien rocked.

I only ever read (or had read to me) the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I remember the children just being there as sort of vessels. In fact, since I was about 8 or 9, I probably envisioned the story from their viewpoints, experiencing the whole thing from how it would be as a child and didn't think very much about character development.

'Bareback Mountain' or sumpin' like that?
Posted by: Yoshi on December 14, 2005 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

I'm writing a screenplay for a movie about gay Iraqi insurgents, called "Blowback Mountain"

Yeah... what's that Gay cowboy movie called....

'Bareback Mountain' or sumpin' like that?

I believe it was 'Bareback Mounting.'

Sir Henry,

The makers of Woolite might put up some dough. Remember Gene Wilder in the gutter with the brown bag of Woolite after he lost his ewe?

My God, is it hot in here? Somebody open a window!

You know you got my sympathy/
But don't shoot shoot shoot that thing at me!

Middle America™ is not ready for anything our corporate leaders don't want Middle America™ to be ready for.

But thanks to the web online romances are the best tool yet for destroying unhappy and sham heterosexual marriages and making it a lot easier for all those people in the closet in Middle America™ to find each other and be truly happy, precipitating a lot of people who are going to stand up for their rights to having insurance for their new homosexual significant others.

So fuck you, corporations. Just when you thought state bans on gay marriage would do the trick...think again. You've only just delayed the inevitable.

"unprepossessing". What a strange word.

Onomasticator: "Tolkien, was in a totally different class. It's like comparing Grisham with one of the Russians."

As an obsessive-compulsive youth, I got really into TLoTR thanks to its generous helpings of geneology and detail, but it can make tedious reading if one's elf-philia has cooled, and I couldn't make it past the Fellowship of the Ring as bedtime reading. The Hobbit, OTOH, I can't say anything bad about. The audio CD is a regular part of a long trip in the car.

I assume that Thin White Guy is a parody. If not, he is espoused a rather fascinating attempt (though ridiculous) to assert that economic conservatives share the same social views as social conservatives.

as for Brokeback Mountain, I agree with Micky Kaus...it will fail for one simple reason (or, at least this one): a romantic movie must have leads that audience members can actually feel smitten with. for the 98% of the country that's either heterosexual or lesbian...there's nothing there. (in theory women could be enamoured with the male leads except for the little every-married-woman's-worst-nightmare problem -- her husband being gay)...thus, it will crash and burn.
and when all is said and done, it won't do much better in Austin or Madison then in Topeka.

3rdPaul:

Yes - been awhile since I've seen that. Lasting memory from that movie is Woody Allen as a sperm.

"I'm not going out there! I'm not going to get shot out of that thing! What if he's masturbating?"

with that said, I do intend to see it...

I have to argue that Lewis did have at least one memorable character that's stuck with me: Screwtape. The old demon came alive through those letters.

I'm sorry, but have you seen "Red River"? Gayest. Western. Ever. Especially that scene where Montgomery Clift and the other cowboy are admiring each other's, uh, revolvers?
Posted by: Stefan on December 14, 2005 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

You're forgetting "Lust in the Dust".

I found five different articles that used the phrase "beloved children's classic." Who used it first?

Why the heck does it matter whether a movie appeals to "middle america" or not? We're a diverse country. Shouldn't it be fine if a movie appeals to enough people to make it profitable? If that doesn't include middle america, or coastal america, who cares?

GM Texan,

Doesn't seem like much of America is thrilled with the stuff Hollywood is putting out. They are in a multi-year drought and that's despite LOTR and Harry Porter. Even George Clooney is have a hard time of it with a series of box office turkeys especially the last two. Syrianna will be lucky to stay in the top 5 in it's 2nd week despite massive publicity and will be out of circulation in a month.

Hollywood is having a rough go of it.

I have to argue that Lewis did have at least one memorable character that's stuck with me: Screwtape. The old demon came alive through those letters. Posted by: Linkmeister on December 14, 2005 at 3:38 PM

Hmmm, that book and "Out of the Silent Planet" were the only Lewis stuff I read. I was 11 years old and detested both of them, so I avoided "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe".

That and "A Wrinkle in Time" depressed the crap out of me in 3rd grade when I read it. Ugh, what a horrifying book for a young child.

On behalf of Middle America™, I'd like to respond to the notion that we're not "ready" for gay cowboys. Where exactly do you think gay cowboys come from? San Diego?

Georgie Henley reminds me of Alice Liddell in a superb, disturbing photograph by the Reverend Charles Dodgson, aka Lewis Carroll.

a romantic movie must have leads that audience members can actually feel smitten with.

Eh, I don't know. Many of my (straight) female friends report that seeing Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhall dressed as cowboys and making out is like their ultimate fantasy sprung to life.

On behalf of Middle America™, I'd like to respond to the notion that we're not "ready" for gay cowboys. Where exactly do you think gay cowboys come from? San Diego?
Posted by: Middle American on December 14, 2005 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

way I heard tell; only two things come out of Oklahoma, Steers and Queers. You ain't got no horns, boy.

a romantic movie must have leads that audience members can actually feel smitten with. for the 98% of the country that's either heterosexual or lesbian...there's nothing there.

I think the existence of slash fanfic shows that you are wrong.

IIRC, Montgomery Cliff was Matt garth in "Red River" and the cowboy who he trades banter with, over their six-shooters, is named "Cherry Valance". And what about Coffer and TC (Strother Martin and L.Q. Jones) from "The Wild Bunch"? And what was up with Dutch Engstrom and Pike Bishop anyway?

Well, two gay cowgirls maybe . . .

I'd settle for the reverse cowgirl....

way I heard tell; only two things come out of Oklahoma, Steers and Queers. You ain't got no horns, boy.

Very butch, OBF. Not overcompensating or anything, are you?

Some of us Middle Americans are tired of being part of the punchline in jokes told by arrogant liberals.

It's Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal? (I know, I know, but I've been busy.) Dang, that does has the potential for hotness.

In fact, the biggest problem with the movie, I thought, was that you never really develop any affection for the children as the movie progresses. Was the book like that too? I don't remember.
—Kevin Drum

I felt the same way about the characters in the book - none of them was particularly interesting.

I bet that the movie will be, one of the few, that is actually better than the book, all rather stiff, thanks to CGI.

Stefan: yeah, but we live in Manhattan...how many married women do we know...

Constantine:, um, I said "romantic movies"

I vote for Middle American over Vergasy as more fun MA.

"economic conservatives" = "There's no way in hell we're going to start insuring all those homosexuals..."

"social conservatives" = "...because they're faggots."

But are they ready for Gay Cowboys on Acid?

Hollywood is having a rough go of it.
Posted by: rdw on December 14, 2005 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

Bullshit.

Hollywood is having trouble because of the changes being brought about by new technology. And entrenched distribution monopolies who would rather bribe politicians to buy laws that infringe on our privacy and fair use rights, rather than figure a new, profitable business model that accomidates the new technology. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the VHS-age. And they profitted handsomely from it.

The notion that Americans are rejecting the material is just more made up bullshit from the Dobson brigade. Propagated by kool-aide drinking fascists like yourself. The lie fits your world-view, so you're comfortable with it. But it's still a lie, and it's still ignorant of the real changes that the market is undergoing as a result of new technology.

of course, the presence of Memoirs of a Geisha in the theaters (which will also bomb) allows men an alternative when forced to the mandatory chick flick of the month. (I have successfully argued that King Kong counts as a chick flick.)

Stefan: yeah, but we live in Manhattan...how many married women do we know...

Eh, I know quite a few.

I remember hearing once that in the Israeli Army, a very large percentage (I don't remember what it was, but it was certainly impressive for me to have remembered hearing about it) had a homosexual experience while doing their military service. Since Israelis don't strike me as a people who necessarily condone homosexuality, it's even more impressive.

I imagine that the same thing must have happened with cowboys, with so few women around.

So, it's not like the gay cowboy film is totally fictional. Yet, America is still not "ready" for it.

Just like there were lots of African-Americans in the Wild West, having recently been emancipated, but you couldn't guess that from all those American cowboy movies.

Isn't that called "denial"?

way I heard tell; only two things come out of Oklahoma, Steers and Queers. You ain't got no horns, boy.

Very butch, OBF. Not overcompensating or anything, are you? Posted by: Middle American

I think he's paraphrasing a line from An Officer and a Gentleman and not waxing homophobic.

Stefan: heh. interesting. the only ones I know who live in the city are coworkers...and once they have kids they end up in Queens, Brooklyn or Westchester.

Thin White Guy: you think corporations really care that much about 3-4% of the population? but leaving that aside, how do you explain all the companies who already have domestic partner benefits without being legally mandated to do so.

My biggest problem was the witch's rasta hair style, and the glop of ice that was supposed to be her crown.

And then her fisher-price palace tied for second most annoying thing in the movie, with the weak, overbearing music.

But the kids were alright.

Everyone knows that Middle America™ only exists on TV. I hate to break it to all you people in Middle America™ feeling sorry for yourselves because you're the butt of 'arrogant liberal' jokes, but the reason you're the butt of 'arrogant liberal' jokes is because you don't realize that when your Middle American™ neighbors go home and get on the internet they're not as 'normal' as you think they are. Discrimination and prejudice are the only things keeping Middle America™ together as a voting block. Don't you get it? If tolerance and understanding won out in Middle America™ the entire GOP base would shatter faster than you can say Rock Hudson.

So you tell me why you shouldn't be the butt of 'arrogant liberal' jokes when all we're laughing at is how much you don't realize how much you're being used and apparently enjoy it. Ha ha ha.

shortstop: thank you.

Michèle: you bet it is. Just another example of the "if I don't acknowledge it, it's not really there" worldview. Not exclusive to us out here in the hinterlands, BTW.

Whether or not Middle America™ is ready for a movie about gay cowboys. The answer is almost certainly no, so let's move on, shall we?

i am so fucking sick of pacifying middle america. oprah's program yesterday was about swingers -- and the guests she had expouding the lifestyle weren't outta hollywood.

I remember hearing once that in the Israeli Army, a very large percentage (I don't remember what it was, but it was certainly impressive for me to have remembered hearing about it) had a homosexual experience while doing their military service. Since Israelis don't strike me as a people who necessarily condone homosexuality, it's even more impressive.

I imagine that the same thing must have happened with cowboys, with so few women around.

So, it's not like the gay cowboy film is totally fictional. Yet, America is still not "ready" for it.

Isn't that called "denial"? Posted by: Michèle

You left out buggery at English boarding schools.

Dan Savage states emphatically that having a "homosexual experience" or even liking anal sex with men does not a homosexual make.

BTW, where was all this in the The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe? Oh, I get it! Wardrobe is code for closet. You people are so clever.

You may be brainwashed by corporate media if you are unaware that expanding equal rights to any segment of the population (including gay people) also expands economic opportunity and puts pressure on wages, which would reduce corporate profits.

Yeah, I think Kaus's whole, "I can't enjoy it because I'm not the least bit gay" argument is really weak. Um, the wives in the movie are pretty hot, so it's not like there isn't eye candy there for straight boys.

Call me crazy, but I think it's much more the, "I can't go see this movie, because if I feel any sort of connection to these characters people will think it's not because I can empathize with them for how awful it must feel to love someone and have that love be forbidden, but because I'm a great big queer ohmigod some people might think I might be gay and that's just so scary that I'd rather avoid the whole subject, thank you."

And sorry, the notion that straight women would have their ardor doused by the gay infidelity? Please explain, then, the success of Fatal Attraction, a movie that portrayed straight infidelity, something I think your average woman far more reasonably fears than gay infidelity.

Good point, linda.

According to Terry Gould's The Lifestyle: A Look at the Erotic Rites of Swingers (ISBN 1552094820), swinging began among U.S. Air Force pilots and their wives during World War II.

Scientific research into swinging has been conducted in the USA since the late 1960s. It has consistently found that swingers have better pair-bonds than monogamous couples. The most recent and most thorough study, based on an Internet questionnaire addressed to visitors of lifestyle-related sites, found swingers are happier in their relationships than the norm. 60% of swingers said that swinging improved their relationship and only 1.7% said it made their relationship less happy. Half of those who rated their relationship very happy before becoming swingers maintained it had become even happier. 90% of those with less happy relationships said swinging improved them. Almost 70% of swingers claimed no problem with controlling jealousy, around a quarter admitted "I have difficulty controlling jealousy when swinging" to be somewhat true but only 6% said this was "Yes, Very Much" true. Swingers rate themselves happier (59% against 32% very happy) and their lives much more exciting (76% against 54% exciting) than does the rest of the population, by surprisingly large margins. There was no difference between the responses of men and women, although more males (70%) than females completed the survey. (Bergstrand & Williams, Today's Alternative Marriage Styles: The Case of Swingers, Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Vol.3, 10 October 2000 [1]). However it should be noted that this study may be biased in terms of its sample (i.e. potentially those swinging couples who had stronger relationships would be motivated to complete the questionnaire, or alternatively the stress that swinging may place on a marriage means that only those with higher than average levels of commitment to their partners are able to remain married whilst swinging; additionally, couples that have jealousy or strife issues caused by swinging will not usually stay in the swinging lifestyle).

Due to the risks of jealousy, swingers most often prefer the lifestyle be something to be used as an enhancement to an already-stable relationship. In the words of one in the lifestyle:

"if the marriage is in need of repair, I wouldn't suggest this is the time to explore swinging."—[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging

I thought all cowboys where gay.

Have to disagree with the host here -- the answer to "Is Middle America ready...?" can only be, We don't know yet (unless, of course, by acceptance we mean Titanic-like grosses; since no drama has done remotely that well in the last 25 years, that's pretty safe to bet against).

There are plenty of reasons to think Brokeback can do well. It's had excellent reviews, and will undoubtedly be a major Oscar nominee, which always pumps up grosses. It's by all reports a devastating romance -- a genre which has historically drawn in female audiences. It's directed by a guy who's already broken the bonds of box-office expectation, earning well over $120 million for a subtitled, historical martial-arts epic (that one even played my parents' small Connecticut town). And it's not as if gayness is some automatic box-office repellent: Philadelphia did over $70 million in 1993, which by today's dollars would crack $100 million, easy.

As for this whole "middle America" thing -- people far too freely use athrase as a synonym for the most backward of the Bush voters. For Christ's sake, Kerry -- "the Massachusetts liberal" -- damn near carried Missouri, Ohio and Arkansas, which I think qualify as middle America in most people's reckoning. There are plenty of reasonably liberal people all over the country, and may of them are even liberal about sexuality (yes, gay marriage sends up red flags; but civil unions gets close to majority support, and that high a percentage can't be all godless city dwellers).

I think there's every chance Brokeback could turn into a relative blockbuster -- which won't mean the country is undergoing a conversion, but will mean many have underestimated its openness to novelty.

Nathan, I'm just saying that stories of gay male relationships are ones that people outside of gay males have an interest in. The biggest consumers and producers of slash fanfic (a subculture I have no understanding of) are heterosexual women. Heck, half the porn films out there (so I've heard) contain portrayals of lesbian relationships, and I think the market for those goes a bit beyond the lesbian community.

Will "middle america" see brokeback mountain? Probably not, and neither will I. But I think it's almost a given that enough people are interested in seeing the movie that it will take in more money than it cost to make.

oy! this ain't a study -- "The most recent and most thorough study, based on an Internet questionnaire addressed to visitors of lifestyle-related sites,"

of course, even assuming the data from a self-selected group is accurate. all that it says is that the very small minority of people who become swingers enjoy it. in no way does that imply that the majority of people would enjoy it or that it would help their marriages.

linda: exactly who is suggesting "pacifying middle America"?...we're debating whether this movie will bomb, and if so, why?

theorajones: this argument will easily be settled...when we have the box office returns. I'm betting the movie will flop...for pretty much the same reasons that Barber Shop didn't play so well with white audiences (the difference between Barber Shop and Brokeback Mountain is that Barber Shop had a low budget and easily hit its intended revenue targets...Brokeback Mountain is a niche movie attempting to hit a broad audience segment...it will fail).

"Nathan, I'm just saying that stories of gay male relationships are ones that people outside of gay males have an interest in."

This is what I'm doubting. But we'll see.

"Heck, half the porn films out there (so I've heard) contain portrayals of lesbian relationships, and I think the market for those goes a bit beyond the lesbian community."

lol. better see some porn. generally speaking, they don't contain "portrayals of lesbian relationships", they display contrived episodes of girl-on-girl sexuality...usually with specific acts, positions and devices aimed at a male audience. most of it has very little correlation with actual lesbian sexuality and everything to do with male fantasy.

"ill "middle america" see brokeback mountain? Probably not, and neither will I. But I think it's almost a given that enough people are interested in seeing the movie that it will take in more money than it cost to make."

Remember that advertising often costs more than the actual movie. You'd be surprised how many movies fail to net a profit and how many profitable movies depend upon overseas proceeds (which Brokeback Mountain isn't going to garner much of, even from enlightened Montrealites like Michele).

I first read both LOTR and Narnia some 27 years ago. Since that time, I've read LOTR another 20 times or so. Have yet to get to my second time through Narnia. The main reason was I hated 3 of the 4 kids. The older sister was kind of hot (in my feverish mind at the time) so I didn't mind her.

"And it's not as if gayness is some automatic box-office repellent: Philadelphia did over $70 million in 1993, which by today's dollars would crack $100 million, easy."

exactly, which is why the "is Middle America ready" thing is such a crock.

with that said, Philadelphia was not a gay love story...heck, it wasn't really a "gay movie" at all.

They weren't cowboys but sheepherders.

I guess you know what they say about Wyoming: where the men are men, the sheep are scarce, and virgin wool is hard to find.

Nathan, box office returns so far have broken all records for per-screen take. And that's just in limited release in a few cities.

The comment-thread here shows numerous examples of men salivating over fictional lesbians. Well, guess what. Women are quite enamoured of gay men, and not just as dishy friends to gossip with.

Believe me when I say most women I know are drooling to see this film.

Women's enjoyment of slash and gay-male-porn may not get as much commercial attention as men's enjoyment of lesbian-porn, but it exists.

The main risk I see to the box office is that men won't want to accompany their wives/girlfriends to see it as a date flick... but then again, Titanic remains the top grosser of all time so you never know...

tomeck: "The older sister was kind of hot (in my feverish mind at the time) so I didn't mind her."

Well, Susan got interested in lipstick and partying with Calormenes, so she was cast out of The Garden.

osama,

So why are fewer people going to see George Clooney while even more go to see Hary Potter?

feh, it doesn't matter if the protaganists are gay cowboys or not, it's still a romance movie. To my cretin mind that means it's a chick flick.

As I said, the obsession with slash fanfic and the affection that hetero-women have with discussing the romantic relationships of their gay male friends does indicate to me that there's a market for low-budget films about gay male relationships outside of the gay male community.

You'd be surprised how many movies fail to net a profit and how many profitable movies depend upon overseas proceeds

A movie that makes profits from overseas proceeds is a profitable movie. If every film were dependent on appealing to the tastes of the demographic segment known as "middle america," all movies would be pretty damn boring. There's no doubt a market for people interested in westerns featuring romantic relationships between cowboys. The movie industry is welcome to attempt to profit off of them.

Nathan, the biggest strike against Brokeback Mountain isn't that it's gay, it's that it's a drama. The biggest winners at the Box Office are action movies and comedies.

Brokeback Mountain was never supposed to appeal to Middle America--that's what King Kong is for. But, um, King Kong won't do well because Middle America is supportive of bestiality for the same reason that Memoirs of a Geisha won't do comparatively poorly because Middle America is opposed to prostitution. It's because they're different kinds of movies!

All we really appear to be testing is how homophobic American drama audiences are--will they not see a good drama because it's about two gay men?

Of course, if it's a blockbuster, it might be Ang Lee's amazing direction, a great story, or because Middle America really likes gay cowboys. Take your pick. But we really don't have to look to homophobia to explain why a serious drama ain't playing in Peoria.

Actually, Nathan, Brokeback -- though it may look expensive -- had a budget barely over $11 million. I see no way it doesn't get back its investment: it's more than halfway to its first million after three days in five cities. Whether it gets into any box-office stratosphere is of course still in question, but its producer Jmaes Schamus was quoted in today's trades saying, thanks to pre-sells, they're approaching breakeven already.

Philadelphia isn't perceived as a terribly gay movie now (which shows how far we've come), but it sure was back in '93 -- at least until it debuted number one at the box-office. I think Ang Lee, a generally very tasteful director, might be able to similarly win audiences over.

rdw, you're not really worth answering when you throw out stupidities like comparing Harry Potter to Syriana or Good Night and Good Luck. Gee, I bet you're amazed Spider Man outgrossed Kinsey, too. For the record: smaller, adult-oriented movies never approach the earning of mass-marketed fantasies. Big news. Good Night and Good Luck was made for $7.5 million, has grossed a healthy $22 so far, probably more with help from the Oscars. Syriana, dismissed as a commercial no-hoper a few weeks back, opened around $12 million, will probably do $40-50 million; again, fine for a demanding adult drama.

BTW, where was all this in the The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe? Oh, I get it! Wardrobe is code for closet. You people are so clever.

Yes, nothing Freudian about entering a secret magical world through a dark furry enclosed space....

Nathan, people from Montreal are called Montrealers in English, not Montrealites.

As for box-office receipts, Broke Back Mountain is appearing in English and in dubbed French in many theaters in Montreal. We have lots of independent movies playing here from all over the world, even American ones.

Another thing I don't get-- why is the release of a film an excuse for a "cultural showdown." Ang Lee just wants to make a movie that gets more revenue than it cost to make. Right-wingers want to win some cultural war at the box office over a $14 million movie.

As I said, the obsession with slash fanfic and the affection that hetero-women have with discussing the romantic relationships of their gay male friends does indicate to me that there's a market for low-budget films about gay male relationships outside of the gay male community.

Films about relationships, or porn?
I mean, I don't think the guys posting here about cowgirls are terribly interested in "relationships."
If all we can get is relationships, we'll take it, but I think if you look at the stuff women are creating for themselves and other women, we can have just as prurient interests as guys.

The biggest consumers and producers of slash fanfic (a subculture I have no understanding of) are heterosexual women.
What do you want to know?

Brokeback Mountain may have been made for $11 million, but the amount spent on publicity has easily exceeded that.

but hey, this is actually a fun argument...cause we'll know in a few weeks who's right. either it will flop, or it won't.

btw, Constantine, its the demands of overseas audiences that actually make Hollywood movies worse...scripts, endings and stars are all planned now for ease of translation and overseas selling points.

Yes, nothing Freudian about entering a secret magical world through a dark furry enclosed space.... Posted by: Stefan

Lewis was described as "priggish." However, how do you square your Freudian observation in a world of Brazilian bikini waxing?

Right. I hear you. Back to work.

I saw 'Brokeback Mountain' on opening day in NYC. Every show was sold out well in advance of show time. It's still selling out almost a week later.

But this is in NYC. In Chelsea, a more-or-less gay neighborhood. definitely not Middle America™.

And yet, it's not really a 'gay movie' at all. And it's not one of those lefty, feel good, "Jimmy has two daddies" thing, either. It's serious drama, serious acting, heart rending tale of unresolvable love. I recommend it to all.

Lis Riba: you're quite right, Brokeback Mountain is doing quite well in a couple friendly theaters (kind of like the Brown Bunny)...that, er, means nothing (see the Brown Bunny).

Michele, I've been to Montreal many times...yes, you have a thriving stage and film scene. but no, there will not be substantial overseas box office returns for Brokeback Mountain...and it won't be because French Canadians are especially homophobic.

Jack, yep, if they sell out at Astoria 14 then I might change my mind.

Nathan, you say that you've been to Montreal many times. I don't know where you live, but if it's in the US, do you remember having to cross an ocean to get here? Wouldn't that would mean that Canadian box office is not "overseas"?

So why are fewer people going to see George Clooney while even more go to see Hary Potter?

Because most people don't take their 9-to-12-year-old children to see talky black-and-white movies about the McCarthy era?

Not to mention that most parents won't be taking their kids to see "Syriana" or "Brokeback Mountain," either. Because -- guess what? -- they're movies made for adults, not kids. And movies you can take your kids to always make more money than movies for adults.

Or did you not know that a huge portion of "Titanic"'s audience was teenage girls?

Nathan, had the matrix only made $14 million, it would have been a "flop." The beauty of independent film is that it can be a "success" while still appealing to a rather narrow audience. You seem to resent this.

demtom,

I wasn't comparing Clooneys flicks to Harry Potter, a sure blockbuster. I was pointing out that people still want to see fun movies like Harry Potter but can't be bothered with the simple-minded message movies Clooney is putting out. Who cares what Clooney thinks about anything?

Hollywood isn't having a bad run because the business model has changed. Hollywood is having a bad run because they make too many movies that suck. Harry Potter and Nardia prove people still love movies.

$50M for Syriana will suck after they spent a fortune on advertising. It's a turkey.

rdw, I seem to recall that Syriana had 3 Golden Globe nominations....

I don't know where you live, but if it's in the US, do you remember having to cross an ocean to get here? Wouldn't that would mean that Canadian box office is not "overseas"?

Nathan lives in Manhattan doesn't he?

I believe that it's surrounded by two seas, rarely crossed, the Hudson on one side, the East River on the other.

rdw, you were comparing Clooney's movie (Good Night and Good Luck, I assume) to Harry Potter. Also, Good Night, and Good Luck cost $7 million to make. It made more than it cost, taking in $25 million in receipts, so far. Much better than "fun" movies of which you are so enamored, such as "Stealth."

A number of people have made references to how Hollywood is hurting and that viewership of movies is down. One thing to consider is that the industry is really being affected by the home entertainment industry and particularly video games. The video game industry is now more lucrative than the film industry. But the majority of them are located near Hollywood and are structured very much like the film studios. So looking at it from a different perspective, Hollywood isn't hurting at all.

I think he's paraphrasing a line from "An Officer and a Gentleman" and not waxing homophobic.

Close -- it's from "Full Metal Jacket." But you were right in a sense since it was said by the drill sergeant played by R. Lee Ermey.

Nathan, you say that you've been to Montreal many times. I don't know where you live, but if it's in the US, do you remember having to cross an ocean to get here? Wouldn't that would mean that Canadian box office is not "overseas"? Posted by: Michèle

Perhaps he should have been more exact and said "foreign," as even most of Canada thinks of Quebec as a different country. Furthermore, rather presumptious of you to assume that all Canadians are nothing but Plastic Americans. Afterall, does anyone South of the Border understand The Red and the Green?

nemmo,

You are missing the point. Hollywood is not in a drought because of kids movies. Of course they have a bigger audience. That segment is doing fine.

But Hollywood isn't doing well and it's because they can't attract adults. How wants to waste two hours of their life listening to George Clooney tell us oil companies are evil?

There's no problem with the business model. They're making lousy movies.

Why on Gods green earth would anyone want to be lectured to by George Clooney?

Build good stuff and they will come. Make movies. Cram the messages up your ass.

Mnemosyne,

A lot of those girls watching Titanic were not teenagers.

That was a good movie with a story well told.

[Titanic] was a good movie with a story well told.

Let me just say that no one is going to take a single statement you make on movies seriously for the rest of the thread.

constantine,

Actually I was talking about Syriana. Good night is obviously in the same vein in terms of being a message movie but even Clooney knew that was not going to get an audience.

If Good Night only cost $7M that has to mean none of the actors got paid and they got free advertising. I would have expected Clooney to take a percentage and wonder if that's of the gross?

I think Clooney is an excellent actor and may be a very good director but I can't tolerate the thought of being lectured to by an actor.

Close -- it's from "Full Metal Jacket." But you were right in a sense since it was said by the drill sergeant played by R. Lee Ermey. Posted by: Mnemosyne

Kubric may have stolen the line, but Lou Gosset's drill sargent character uses it twice in O&G. But thanks for playing our game.

The famous line from Full Metal Jacket (other than the title itself) is, "The is my rifle, this is my gun. With this I do work, with this I have fun"

constantine,

I thoroughly enjoyed Titanic especially the way he told the story with the flashbacks from the current age back to the voyage. I love historical epics. That was clever and well executed.

I may have an advantage over you. I'm not a movie snob. I'll watch Harry Potter 10x's before Clooney.

Actually I was talking about Syriana.

Syriana cost $50 million to make. At the rate it's going ($10 million on opening weekend), I image that eventually it will do ok for itself. If it doesn't, that doesn't make the film much different from, say, "Legend of Zorro." I'll probably see Syriana eventually, but that's because I have a bias towards thrillers. Besides, people love to see movies about about evil oil companies. Just look at "The World Is Not Enough." :)

I think Clooney is an excellent actor and may be a very good director but I can't tolerate the thought of being lectured to by an actor.

And yet you don't mind when Bush talks to the American people like they're idiots.

I'm not a movie snob, but I hate being addressed like I'm an idiot. Unfortunately, that's a lot of what you get with most big-budget movies, Titanic included. Isn't that the irony? The only people who love "Hollywood" are "middle america." The "intellectual elites" are the ones who talk about how they can't stand the mindlessness of Hollywood blockbusters.... on the other hand, they don't turn every big-budget, mass-appeal bomb like The Island and Stealth into a cultural battleground.

Michele,

Syrianna could have 50 golden globes. People aren't going to watch it. King Kong, Harry Potter and Nardia are going to bury it.

I'm not into the 'art' side. I go to movies to be entertained and there has to be a good story for that. I don't need special effects. My favorite movie of the last few years was Master and Commander. That was a really good and interesting story well told.

We're not getting enough of that.

That was a really good and interesting story well told. We're not getting enough of that. Posted by: rdw

Actually, with your preference for something like Titanic or M&C, both of which have loads of special effects, I'd say you like old-fashioned melodrama.

Syriana is hardly an "art" movie, nor is Good Night and Good Luck. Political yes. Arty, no.

Having actually seen Syriana, I can tell you its not anything close to a lecture.

Its true that in the movie there are no "good guys", but there also aren't any truly "bad" guys either. Its all shades of gray. The movie raises many questions, and perhaps makes people uncomfortable because it raises serious questions/flaws in the system, but you can't put your finger on a sigle entity or person (including the oil execs) and say that that one person is the problem. Everyone in the story is equally culpable, and yet equally forgivable.

I should also note that adults have been effectively banished from the movie theatres since the early 80s. If a movie isn't one that parents can take their kids to or one that young people won't see on their own, the movie studios aren't so interested. That's been the pattern ever since, oh, ET came out.

And sure, to rip off a line from Heather Havrilesky's days at Suck, I love a good fruit smoothie and read a pick-me-up book as much as anyone, but sometimes you want to drink a whiskey sour and read a dark novel.

I saw Syriana and it was really good. The cinema was full as well. I was surprised by the reaction of the other patrons, who liked it as well.

dk, stop interrupting a perfectly good conversation with actual facts!

Worst kids ever in a movie. Except for the little one, who between her pouting and the soundtrack, kept making a grown man stifle back tears. The other kids just had nothing, and I could care less for them, for the most part. Some say it's that they were English, but I loved Time Bandits.

I think it's hysterical that, everywhere I go, slashficcers and slashficfen turn up (and,yes, I inlude myself in both groups). For something that supposed to be fringe-y, that is one BIG subculture :D

Short explanation: Men find girl-on-girl sex hot. Women find boy-on-boy sex hot. Same reasons, probably.

Oh, and slash can definitely be about the porn more than the plot. In fact, there's a subcategory of slash known as PWP - "Plot? What Plot?"

For something that supposed to be fringe-y, that is one BIG subculture :D

CaseyL, I just blogged this but if Brokeback Mountain's a hit among women (to which all signs point to yes), this could finally open people's eyes to slash's popularity.

Still, the all-time best cry-inducing performance by a child actress, though not just about her but the just the overall excellence of the story, the director, and Denzel Washington, was that cute kid in Man on Fire. Tears hadn't fallen from my eyes like that in a long, long time, if ever, towards the conclusion of that movie, and it came on so strong and natural I didn't even bother to try and block it. Of course, it didn't hurt I watched the movie alone, at home, so was just deeply emotionally involved in the movie, without distractions (and noone was around to question my manliness either when it came to the tears portion).

Women find boy-on-boy sex hot? I've never heard that one before. Granted I often run in bohemian crowds, but I know a lot more straight women who enjoy watching girl-on-girl than boy-on-boy, and who are a lot more willing with a few drinks to tease the boys about it with a little exhibitionism with each other (usually just kissing).

Hmmmm.

My last two comments, lined up one after the next, have to be one of the odder combinations of content and sympathies.

Jimm, I'll let you in on a little secret. Some of us find both kinds hot, or at least highly interesting. Watching other people have sex is many adjectives, but boring is not one of them.

rdw, if you type Nardia one more time, someone's going to think you live in 'Tardia. Oh, wait, we already do.

As for the gay cowboy movie, in mainstream middle-class America I'd bet you'd find lots more women inclined to see a movie about novel and forbidden love between men than you would find guys who would show up for a lesbian love movie (this would be about 12 guys, and only those with the most demanding girlfriends), unless it showed a lot of T&A. :) As for the guys showing up for the gay cowboy movie, a lot of middle-class homophobes I know wouldn't even consider being seen at such an event.

shortstop, I hear what you're saying, and it makes sense, it just isn't something that generally comes up in straight crowds. but hey, maybe I've been missing something this whole time. anything that gets the ladies hot and flustered is well worth my attendance.

Tom, they could retitile it as "Bareback Mountain," starring Andrew Sullivan... sure to be kid-friendly, with two AFA thumbs up.

I'm not into the 'art' side. I go to movies to be entertained and there has to be a good story for that. I don't need special effects. My favorite movie of the last few years was Master and Commander. That was a really good and interesting story well told.

Really? I mean it wasn't bad or anything, but it didn't even come close to my expectations having read several of the books in the series from which it was drawn, even given my generous allowance for how movies based on books usually suck in terms of storytelling vs. the source material.

If you really want Tolkien, read Silmarilion

I should also note that adults have been effectively banished from the movie theatres since the early 80s. If a movie isn't one that parents can take their kids to or one that young people won't see on their own, the movie studios aren't so interested. That's been the pattern ever since, oh, ET came out.

Adult movies don't create massive merchandising opportunities. I mean, I don't think Hasbro's going to move a billion dollars worth of Brokeback Mountain action figures.

what strikes me odd about the the supporter's arguement about torture is that it's the same logic as those who oppose the death penalty.

where the men are men, the sheep are scarce

I thought it was, and the sheep are scared

Yes, nothing Freudian about entering a secret magical world through a dark furry enclosed space....
Posted by: Stefan on December 14, 2005 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

VERY funny. Thanks.

rdw: I'll watch Harry Potter 10x's before Clooney.

What's the beef with Clooney? He was brilliant in Team America.

Constantine,

Believe me, no one takes rdwooten seriously on any matter on any thread. He is a right wing obtuse idealogue.

Jeff II,

That famous line may have come from Full Metal Jacket, but US Army and Marine DIs have said that to recruits for years prior to that movie. And the ending in 1960 at Ft Leonard Wood was, "this is for killing, this is for fun".

Stefan,

Re: Red River, check out The Outlaw from Howard Hughes in the mid-40s - The uproar was over Jane Russell's cleavage, but the story was about the "relationship" among Billy the Kid, Pat Garrett and another older friend. So much attention was paid to the cleavage, that the story went past the audience. But, yes, in those days, they did have to lay it between the lines.
Also, check out how Gore Vidal was able to put it past Heston in Ben Hur. Only the other actor was in on the joke. Check out his eyes when he meets the Heston character after many years. Stephen Boyd's glitter and dance.

And don't forget how many ladies loved Doris Day as Annie Oakley.
Must try to stop remembering the spandex cat fight between Charlize Theron and Tori Hatcher in "2 Days in the valley" - How many guys wanted them to kiss and make up?

Why on Gods green earth would anyone want to be lectured to by George Clooney?

I can tell you're neither a straight woman nor a gay man. I would pay to see George Clooney read the phone book, even if he is 30 pounds overweight in Syriana. Plus Alexander Siddig -- the ultra-hottie from "ST:DS9" -- is one of the costars. So, yes, I'll be there. Probably after King Kong, but I'll go.

Oh, and speaking of secretly gay classic cowboy movies: Johnny Guitar.

As they say in Bad Movies We Love, plays as though the entire cast is dying to burst out of the closet.

cmdicely:Really? I mean it wasn't bad or anything, but it didn't even come close to my expectations having read several of the books in the series from which it was drawn, even given my generous allowance for how movies based on books usually suck in terms of storytelling vs. the source material.

No doubt I was clearly helped by NOT having read any of the O'Brien series until after having seen the movie. Consequently, I liked the movie. It is those pesky expectations that I was not burdened with, I suppose.

Um, well I kinda liked it and I kind liked the kids too. And I don't even like kid's movies.

And the ending in 1960 at Ft Leonard Wood was, "this is for killing, this is for fun".

Wow! You're so old dude! I was one in 1960.

Must try to stop remembering the spandex cat fight between Charlize Theron and Tori Hatcher in "2 Days in the valley".Posted by: thethirdPaul

Why? Sometimes it's the only thing that gets me through the day.

thethirdpaul: Also, check out how Gore Vidal was able to put it past Heston in Ben Hur.

Ah, which puts me in mind of the Gayest Movie Ever, Spartacus.

Mnemosyne: I would pay to see George Clooney read the phone book.

You and me both, honey. I came late to the Church of George, but I'm one of its most devout members these days.

Jeff II: Why? Sometimes it's the only thing that gets me through the day.

rofl!

I found five different articles that used the phrase "beloved children's classic." Who used it first?


I don't imagine this is the first usage but I found the phrase in a 1939 New York Times article about The Wizard of Oz movie.

So this thread inspired me to call up my dad for a little late-afternoon fun at his expense. My mom and I cry with laughter every time we think of his reaction to Johnny Depp's sexually ambiguous character in Pirates of the Caribbean: total bewilderment and vague unease. My mom says he kept leaning over to her and furiously muttering, "Why's he doing that? Why's he acting like that?" She kept waiting for him to shout, "But everyone knows pirates aren't gay!"

In his defense, he's in his 70s, was raised in a very conservative environment and tries really hard not to be a homophobe. Sometimes he succeeds, sometimes not.

So, anyway, Dad doesn't plan on seeing Brokeback Mountain, and he wants to know if I don't have anything better to do than call him up and laugh at him. Well, not at the moment, no.

...Johnny Depp's sexually ambiguous character in Pirates of the Caribbean...

Johnny Depp played a sexually ambiguous character in Pirates of the Carribbean?

mnemosne,

Good for you!!!! I get it. He's also a terrific actor. I disagree with his politics but I am sure he's a fine human being. By all means spend your $10 and enjoy your 2 hours. He's selling and you're buying and that's capitalism at it's best.

He's missing a much larger market and that's fine too. He's got money coming out his ears. But he is missing a much larger market as is Hollywood. If he really wanted to have influence he'd try to be at least a little bit subtle. For this effort and his last her was only able to attract the choir and that's probably all he'll ever get.

In his defense, he's in his 70s, was raised in a very conservative environment and tries really hard not to be a homophobe. Sometimes he succeeds, sometimes not.

So, anyway, Dad doesn't plan on seeing Brokeback Mountain, and he wants to know if I don't have anything better to do than call him up and laugh at him. Well, not at the moment, no. Posted by: shortstop

Did you see the Boondocks series when Riley's grandfather goes to see Brokeback Mountain? Funny the first couple of days, began to come across a bit homophobic in its repetition.

cmdicely,

I had the advantage for Master & Commander because I hadn't read the book. It's so rare for a movie to match the book. I also didn't have high expectations and I have an affinity for historical as well as naval movies.

I didn't think it was a great movie. It certainly wasn't exciting or fast paced but I thought it was a terrific story with good acting.

Caribbean, cmdicely. But you avoided the more common error, "Carribean."

As for pirates and sex, well, y'all tell me. I frankly didn't notice any sexual signals at all coming off the good captain, but a lot of reviewers and general moviegoers seemed to pick up on this, whether they found it funny or off-putting. Geez, dancing skeletons are just not enough for some people.

Shortstop,

Reminds me of a co-worker once telling me about her devout small town parents who came to LA - Her day was a cowboy fan, so, when they saw the ad, went to view Jon Voight and Dustin Hoffman in that great "cowboy" film set in New York. Tis a shame that one of the best parts of the film has been edited for TV. It was the part where Brenda Vacarro has taken Voight to her apartment and he has had a slight problem in performing. So, they play Scrabble - it is his turn and all he has is "ay" - He is stumped - Brenda suggests any number of letters could be used - rhymes with day, or say , or play, or gay, is that your problem? - he turns into an animal - All that is left after the cut is Brenda and Ratzo leaving the party, with Ratzo negotiating as Voight's pimp, and fast forwarding to her calling her girl friends the next morning to extol his performance. The Srabble game has been cut.
Now, who is running scared of the right.

George Clooney was terrific in the Coen Brothers film about the escaped convicts. However, once the right realized that he is a liberal, his films suddenly suck.

Jeff II: Did you see the Boondocks series when Riley's grandfather goes to see Brokeback Mountain? Funny the first couple of days, began to come across a bit homophobic in its repetition.

That's usually the problem with the Boondocks--Magruder (sp.?) beats an originally funny joke to death.

Shortstop:

I loved Pirates and was so swept into that adventurous world that any sexual ambiguity via Depp went right on past me. But maybe a lot of that comes from not really giving a shit one way or another...

I loved Pirates and was so swept into that adventurous world that any sexual ambiguity via Depp went right on past me. But maybe a lot of that comes from not really giving a shit one way or another...
Posted by: E. Henry Thripshaw

Either that or you have no gaydar.

Great. I'm gonna hear jokes about Bareback Mountin' for the next month...

As for Narnia, if y'all haven't seen it, don't...it's a renter. It really didn't keep myself or the little_grape entertained, 'tho I'll agree that Georgie managed to steal the show by being cute and endearing without becoming Culkin-style annoying.

Oh, and Tilda Swinton's Celtic-warrior-queen White Witch: Well acted and downright hot...it's the eyes... and much more interesting than the plain-vanilla-bland 'good guys' in the movie, who I actually wanted to lose the battle by the time the end of the film rolled around.

Oh, and an update on the little_grape: She still hasn't turned Christian fundamentalist after seeing Narnia...

As for Depp's character in Pirates of the Caribbean: The character is not 'sexually ambiguous'; the character is a take-off on freakin' Keith Richards!...Yes, that Keith Richards.

Oh, and an update on the little_grape: She still hasn't turned Christian fundamentalist after seeing Narnia...

Believe it or not, you've actually lessened the chances of such a turn by exposing her to Narnia. The fundies have latched onto it, but they don't seem to have actually read them.

Especially that part in The Last Battle where Aslan tells a young Calormene that it's not a problem that the Calormene actively disbelieved in Aslan -- the Calormene's good acts get him into "heaven" anyway.

Many a fundie parent's hair must have stood on end when they got to that part of the book ...

Here's a fresh movie peeve that aggravating me this morning: I saw a print ad for King Kong that touted it as "Awesome! Thrilling!" in big print. In tiny print, it attributed these superlatives to a critic I'd never heard of. What happened to the old days when studio marketing departments felt free to use unattributed hype??

Jeff II: "The is my rifle, this is my gun. With this I do work, with this I have fun"

The chant as it's used in Full Metal Jacket goes, "This one's for fighting, this one's for fun."

But thanks for playing our game.

BTW, there should be, if there isn't already, a Godwin Law for movie threads regarding the increasing probability of somebody defending Titanic. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

As for Depp's character in Pirates of the Caribbean: The character is not 'sexually ambiguous'; the character is a take-off on freakin' Keith Richards!...Yes, that Keith Richards.
Posted by: Ann Coulter in the late afternoon

I remember reading that somewhere. However, his diction was far too clear, and you've got to remember that Keith Richards is neither a junkie nor a drunk anymore, but is only playing a character now called Keith Richards, Rollingstone.

...the character is a take-off on freakin' Keith Richards!...Yes, that Keith Richards.

Like I said, sexually ambiguous. And like I said, dancing skeleton.

I love Keith. I can't believe I missed that.

grape_crush, did you just out yourself as Ann Coulter? Thanks for all the entertainment you've provided us this week.

"It is so rare when a movie matches the book"

Yes, it is rare - and it did not happen in Master and Commander - Without going back to the archives, they used two different books and changed the enemy. Other than that, it was spot on.

Yes, Shortstop, once again you were correct about Johnny Depp in Pirates. Didn't even need replay. Brilliant actor.

Here's a fresh movie peeve that aggravating me this morning: I saw a print ad for King Kong that touted it as "Awesome! Thrilling!" in big print. In tiny print, it attributed these superlatives to a critic I'd never heard of. What happened to the old days when studio marketing departments felt free to use unattributed hype??

You're just now noticing this? For every piece of crap panned by the real critics (NYT, LAT, Seattle PI, New Yorker, RollingStone and few others) they come up with good ol' Jeffrey Lyons who has apparently never seen a bad movie. Same goes for the whores at Entertainment Weekly.

The chant as it's used in Full Metal Jacket goes, "This one's for fighting, this one's for fun." But thanks for playing our game.Posted by: Grumpy

Actually, the question was which movie the "steers and queers" phrase came from, not the exact wording (of which there are many variations) of the line borrowed by Kubric for FMJ.

Master and Commander - Title of the first book.

The Far Side of the World - much of the plot taken from the 10th book.

Enemy in film was French - Enemy in the book was American.

Other than that, they were identically the exact same, same exact and equal to boot.

Yes, it is rare - and it did not happen in Master and Commander - Without going back to the archives, they used two different books and changed the enemy. Other than that, it was spot on. Posted by: thethirdPaul

The only two exception I've ever seen are The Year of Living Dangerously, actually better than the book, and Brideshead Revisited. Then again, they did that in thirteen hours, and it's almost word-for-word.

Oh. And then there's Repo Man.

Hey, you're both right!

"Only steers and queers come from Texas, Private Cowboy. And you don't look much like a steer to me so that kinda narrows it down."

From Full Metal Jacket

grape_crush, did you just out yourself as Ann Coulter?

Yes thanks for the entertainment. shortstop I thought it was you.

rdw posted about George Clooney: If he really wanted to have influence he'd try to be at least a little bit subtle.

I think Syriana is about something extremely unsubtle: the current quasi-fascist hookup of Big Oil, Big Business, and the Republicans ... so "subtle" wouldn't really be appropriate. Perhaps if rdw ever actually notices what's going on in the reality-based world -- and how little his Rethuglican masters care about his welfare or that of anyone except themselves -- he'll rethink his objection.

And Diana, I agree: The Horse & His Boy is the best of the Narnia books for exactly the reason you suggested -- it's all in the Narnian world.

Yep, that was little old me doing the Coulter parody; hope that it wasn't too annoying. The schtick was getting a bit old anyway...Always felt like taking a bath in Tilex after reading through Old Bony Ass Coulter's droppings.

It was easy to write: One part Alice/Patton, one part Joan Crawford, one part compulsive liar. Funny thing is, the more I Googled "Ann Coulter +whatever", the less original insane-sounding material I had to make up; her columns and quotes are in themselves a gold mine of freak-conservative insanity. Best thing about the parody was that I could be completely incoherent and not break character...

Oh, and after visiting her personal site, my computer picked up a spyware app. No joke.

Rumor had it that in the Pirates sequel, now in post-production, the actual Keith Richards would play Jack Sparrow's father...but a quick check of imdb.com doesn't list Richards.

For further fun, compare Dr. Evil in Austin Powers to Lorne Michaels of SNL or Dustin Hoffman's Hook in...Hook...to William F. Buckley, or even Hoffman's Robert Evans-esque Hollywood producer in Wag the Dog.

Jeff II: The only two exception I've ever seen are The Year of Living Dangerously, actually better than the book...

God, what a fantastic movie. Oh, Mel, where did you go wrong? And whatever happened to Linda Hunt? "Sukarno, feed your people!" That scene in the car in the rain...wow.

...and Brideshead Revisited. Then again, they did that in thirteen hours, and it's almost word-for-word.

It really is almost word for word. I haven't seen that in years; it might be time to put it in the old Netflix queue.

Coulter's grapy goodness: For further fun, compare Dr. Evil in Austin Powers to Lorne Michaels of SNL or Dustin Hoffman's Hook in...Hook...to William F. Buckley, or even Hoffman's Robert Evans-esque Hollywood producer in Wag the Dog.

You are a gold mine! Thanks for all this.

3rd paul,

Never saw the Coen bros movie but liked Clooney in Three Kings. One automatically assumes if they're from Hollywood and they're in a movie they're liberal. I still go to movies. I just don't go for politics. I'll even go watch Alec Baldwin and Tim Robbins although will draw the line at Sean Penn. Where Clooney goes wrong and where Hollywood has gone wrong is to make message movies. If it's a political message they can automatically say good-bye to half their audience, in many cases forever. I know of few people who head to the movies to get a message on life from George Clooney. Now, knowing he's on a mission to convert the great unwashed, I don't bother.

He'll still die a fabulously wealthy man but he's not helping the business.

I should also note that adults have been effectively banished from the movie theatres since the early 80s.

This just isn't true. Granted you have to live in LA, SF, or NYC to experience movies made for love instead of money, but I am constantly amazed at how many movies get made because of love of storytelling. This year, despite the poor box office, is the richest sine '98. Besides Brokeback Mountain , we have Good Night and Good Luck, Walk the Line , Tsotsie , The Squid and the Whale (a movie everyone from a dysfunctional, intellectual household should see), Mrs. Henderson Presents , and the finest adaptation of Jane Austen I have ever seen in the new Pride and Prejudice.

Granted these movies may not play the multiplex in Topeka, but it doesn't mean they aren't being made, or appreciated.

grape_, I shall miss your interpretaton of Ms. Coulter, although I still maintain it should be bourbon rather than effete, surrender-monkey, Anglo-Saxon swill.

Michele wrote:

"I saw Syriana and it was really good. The cinema was full as well. I was surprised by the reaction of the other patrons, who liked it as well."

Posted by: Michèle on December 14, 2005 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK

I started out not liking Clooney. He didn't have much of a character in Tarantino's From Dusk until Dawn. He did well in Oh Brother Where Art Thou and then I didn't care for Ocean's Eleven. But, I liked him in that movie with Nicole Kidman where he was a soldier trying to stop nukes from coming into America. So, I can say that in the right role he's okay. In Syriana he's terrific, but it's not a 'lead' role, it's a significant character, but not a starring role. He was very good. Alexander Siddig was downright royal.

The movie is disconcerting because, as has been mentioned, there's no good guys or bad guys. It's shades of gray nuance and all that. Republicans would probably be confused as Hell. There's also not a discernible storyline with a clearcut beginning middle and end. There's ambiguity out the wazoo.

But, there are good character portrayals of everyone involved in the Middle East and it's oil politics. Perhaps the one thing left out which is intriguing most of us these days is the very top politicos of US government. Their involvement is undeniable, but in Syriana it's filtered down through multiple layers of lawyers, lobbyists, agency bureaucrats and agents. What you see in the movie is much more ground-level action and the players out there on the field.

One like I really liked was when a guy is telling Clooney's CIA field agent that another guy is "a soldier, just like you". It brings home that our people in the field are all troops, whether they carry rifles or not. That also means they're expendable.

If there was a message it was when Clooney's character was undercut and he had to ask where his support had gone and who was behind the change in direction. It was almost heartbreaking.

I'd give it a 5 out of 10.

Another thing which struck me was that the production gave it an almost real-time CNN-ish documentary feel, but it is definately a fictional story with fictional characters. That blurring of genres is also disconcerting. I kept waiting for a news conference or something where Bush or Cheney or Rice appeared.

He'll still die a fabulously wealthy man but he's not helping the business.

And if that Jared Diamond guy would just write more books like The Purpose Driven Life instead of polemical downers like Collapse, he'd make tons more money!

And given that none of us has actually seen Syriana, I don't see why you're getting worked up about it. :) Look, a guy can't spend his life making movies like Ocean's 12. Sometimes, you have to do what you like. Personally, I wish there were more movies like Rushmore and Memento and a lot less like Armageddon. But I'm willing to live with the Armageddons if they create the capital to finance the Rushmores and the Good Night, and Good Lucks.

(Plus, Mystic River was great, even if Sean Penn was in it. Everyone's favorite conservative Clint Eastwood even directed it.)

The movie is disconcerting because, as has been mentioned, there's no good guys or bad guys. It's shades of gray nuance and all that. Republicans would probably be confused as Hell. There's also not a discernible storyline with a clearcut beginning middle and end. There's ambiguity out the wazoo.

I know it's considered more sophisticated to do this and clearcut storylines can be considered too simplistic, but the truth is that when you have only 90-120 minutes to tell a story, the storyline damn well better be clearcut. It's hard to tackle complicated storylines in movie form, which is why I was surprised that Syriana was a $50 million picture. The subject matter struck me more as the sort of thing that would work better as a $10 million indie film.

Brokeback Mountain is going to be a bigger hit than Crash or Sideways, and if, as is likely, it wins the Best Picture Oscar, bigger than Million Dollar Baby.

Kevin, your perceptions are so five years ago.

I work within the theatre business - this film has more want to see than Fahrenheit 9/11 - gays obviously, serious moviegoers, and females between 15-30 in particular. It is going to get repeat business. It will play and do business in all 50 states.

I think Clooney is an excellent actor and may be a very good director but I can't tolerate the thought of being lectured to by an actor.

And this from a man who worships Reagan and would have voted for Arnold if he lived in California.

LW Phil on December 14, 2005 at 9:33 PM:

grape_, I shall miss your interpretaton of Ms. Coulter,

Aw shucks. You're too generous. Really.

She'll probably make more appearances, along with possibly a few more characters from the rogues' gallery in the fringes of the conservative movement, when appropriate.

although I still maintain it should be bourbon rather than effete, surrender-monkey, Anglo-Saxon swill.

But if I used bourbon for the parody, I would never be able to enjoy my Beam and Coke without -shudder- associating it with Mizz Coulter...Besides, swilling Glenfiddich like a fish drinks water does carry a certain cachet for the character.

Back on topic (sorta):

Well-done message movies sell. Well-done action movies sell. Well done period movies sell. Well-done comedies sell. Well-done horror movies sell. What is hurting the movie industry is not necessarily the quality of the entertainment (and, yes, films like Swordfish will still get made, unfortunately) but the fact that audiences don't got to the theaters to see the movies like they used to.

The gap between a movie's theatrical release date and dvd release date is shrinking, not to mention that the 18-34 male demographic has another medium of entertainment: videogames. Add cable, satellite, TiVo, and pay-per-view to the mix, and you can see that competition for an audience's time spent on entertainment is much more fierce than two decades ago.

Net effect: Shrinking box office.

It is precisely because the older children are not affectionate and likable that the story is such a good Christian allegory. Edmund, in particular, is the doubter and cynic and betrayer and liar. Not a likable character. Yet, he is completely forgiven and his betrayals never spoken of again and is as well loved by his siblings and the other Narnians in the end as the trusting and sweet Lucy.

Thin White Guy (if you're still reading):

My objection to arrogant liberal jokes about Middle America doesn't have anything to do with a preference for discrimination or prejudice. Instead, it bothers me because I see it stemming from coastal/urban elitist bigotry that unfairly lumps diverse groups of people together into one big "inferior" category, and I think this only hurts the political left. This sort of stuff turns off even the people that agree with you. Moreover, aren't your superior tone and your smug assumptions about what I think examples of the same discrimination and prejudice that you decry?

You know, there wouldn't be arrogant liberal jokes if there weren't arrogant redneck jokes. And there wouldn't be arrogant redneck jokes if there weren't arrogant liberal jokes. And if your motivational compass is tethered to whether or not people are making fun not of you specifically but of people who you may identify as being similar to you, then your entire life is just one long, boring Pavlovian experiment, isn't it?

Okay, on the middle-America/coastal elite theme. Last summer I was working on a film project in Texas. I took the crew to a top notch barbeque restaurant. They were blown out. Multiple orders of ribs for the vegetarians. I asked the manager, a young Texas man, if he could show my crew the smoker, as they were from the East Coast. He replied, "No sir, I can't admit customers into the kitchen." As we were leaving he told me since they were closed he could show us the smoker. Needless to say, for anyone who has experienced Texas barbeque, my people were agog; both due to the technological complexity, and the huge stacks of oak waiting to create middle-American culinary art. As we left my crew invited our host, who had never traveled more than 30 miles from his home, to the east coast. I suggested California, to which he replied, "Yes sir. I really want to see that."

By this story, true as it is, I hold that America is still America, and may yet survive the current strife it finds itself in. My family fought on both sides of the Civil War, yet united to win medals in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, while generating professors, businesspeople, clergy and filmmakers - as well as a few nutcases.

temperance, markH

There's nothing more boring or predictable than a liberals take on big oil. In fact any corporation. These are people who eat puppies for breakfast. I get it. I've heard nothing else since I was 5. In 50 years of liberal twits trying to 'speak truth to power' and instruct the great unwashed we can look up the financial rankings and low and behold, the kiddie eaters are still top of the world. Just add a few more zeroes to the totals.

Keep trying guys!!

markH, you make an excllent point. These movies are oh so confusing. Actually, it's difficult all over. The intellectual gap between liberals and conservatives such as myself is so wide I just can't grasp yor deepness. You are so unbelievably smart. I don't know how you do it.

Sometimes it's just awful.

I can no longer go to many movies and I can't read the NY times, Time magazine or watch Network TV. That Dan Rather. Wow!! He's almost Bill Clinton smart. I just can't keep up.

Reading the news (I stick with cable, talk radio and the daily local which is targeted toward us 'slower' people) I am struck by how many people are just like me. Every time I turn a page either Time magazine or the NT Times or the LA Times or Newsweek or the Washington Post is laying off 5% of it's editorial staff. The NYT's had not one but two rounds of staff layoffs and Time magazine announced yesterday the reduction of 105 jobs from it's editorial staff.

So we have the MSM hemmoranging viewers and jobs and the major unions doing the same and consistent downward trends in the movie biz. When liberals apply their superior intellect there's no telling what they can do. You are as good in business as you are in winning elections.

the kiddie eaters are still top of the world.

I think Jesus pointed this out a long time ago.

Wow, you're pissy.

>The phrase "beloved children's classic." And don't pretend you don't know which movie I'm talking about.

Um, "Bambi Meets Godzilla"?

Reading the news ... I am struck by how many people are just like me ... we have the MSM hemmoranging viewers and jobs and the major unions doing the same and consistent downward trends in the movie biz.

Well, that's great, isn't it? All those nasty liberal institutions crumbling under the onslaught of the conservative vanguard! (I think the reality is a bit more complex, but heaven forbid, I don't want to sound too smart.) Besides, who needs all this crap when you have "talent on loan from God" to tell you how the world works?

So you and all those people who are just like you are winning! Awesome! Then what's with all the insecurity, the whining, the self-pity? Did your wife just dump you or something?

JK,

Insecurity? Whining? Self-pity? Where do you see this? You think I'm upset Dan Rather is well known as the worlds biggest stooge? You think I'm whining because Barbara Streisand is Whinning because the LA Times sh*tcanned a few libs? You think I'm feeling self-pity because you kep on lsoing elections.

I may not have talent on loan from God but I do know how to take instructions.

bartkid,

Yes!!! - The greatest "children's classic" of all time. Loved the scroll of credits, especially "additional dialogue" - wonder if Zucker was inspired for his "Airplane" credits scroll?

LW Phil,

You are probably working by now, but loved your story of shooting in Texas.

A couple days ago on NPR, the announcer called it "Bareback Mountain." Heh heh. He said "bareback."

I may not have talent on loan from God but I do know how to take instructions. Posted by: rdw

You have just characterized the extreme right in this country to a T. Just like all the good Germans, you just follow orders.

"the biggest problem with the movie, I thought, was that you never really develop any affection for the children as the movie progresses"

You're not supposed to develop affection for the kids. You're supposed to develop affection for our lord Jesus Christ and the Disney Corporation -- not necessarily in that order.

jeff II

just as long as there are more on the extreme right than the extreme left conservatives will continue to win elections just as we did today.

just as long as there are more on the extreme right than the extreme left conservatives will continue to win elections just as we did today.
Posted by: rdw

The vast majority of Americans are both apolitical and disengaged from domestic and world events in so much as they aren't directly affected by them. At the core, there are no more "conservative" Americans than there are "liberal" Americans. The difference is that at election time the right has no compunction about lying through its teeth in order to "win."

jeff II

Wrong, There are about 50% more people who will call themselves Conservative than will call themselves liberal. Voter registrations I believe favor Democrats over Republicans marginally however I suspect these are misleading.

I grew up in Philadelphia in a ward that was 95% catholic and democratic before 1968. It remains democratic but had less than 1/2 the population and those who moved to the suburbs are often still registered democratic but vote Red. My family is part of the now famous catholic swing vote that Reagan 1st 'captured'.

At the retail level the Democrats have some serious long term issues running against them.
The migration from the north to the south and west is continuing and may have accelerated as Northern unions have been devastated. There will be several hundred thousand fewer union members working the polls in 2008 than in 2000.

It's also clear that the demographic profile of the democratic profile is much less attractive and may be much less attractive. Religious conservatives are much less likely to have abortions and are more likely to have large families. There are no zero population growth conservatives.

Further, the GOP has been shrewd in how it's started to reach out to minorities, both black and brown. There is a rapidly growing black middle class which is sociallly conservative, favors a lower tax regime, faith based funding and school choice. They'll have are least 3 state wide black candidates in 2006 and 2 will be favored. Lynn Swann won't beat Eddie Rendell in 2006 but he'll introduce himself as a serious politician and line himself perfectly to replace either Rendell in 2010 or Arlen spector in 2010.

You've got Howard Dean preening before every and any camera he can find while the GOP is working hard on the gound.