Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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December 27, 2005

'LET THE STUDENT DECIDE'....Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) hopes to become the oldest person ever elected president, but he's still making an effort to reach out to younger voters. Consider what Mr. Straight Talk told an MTV audience recently.

"Let the student decide." With those well-chosen words John McCain summed up his view on the teaching of "intelligent design" along with evolution in public schools.

In related news, McCain said he'd like to see students decide whether to believe the earth is flat, the South won the Civil War, the value of pi is exactly 3, and one can contract the AIDS virus through tears and sweat.

OK, so he didn't actually endorse these other positions, but by saying that students should decide whether to learn pseudoscience alongside modern biology, McCain appears willing to make science classes popularity contests. One wants to believe McCain knows better and he's just saying these nonsensical things to bolster his presidential ambitions, but that makes him even less appealing.

Matt Yglesias recently said that McCain is "more honest than the conventional Republican, but basically has the same worldview." I agree, but it remains to be seen just how far McCain is willing to stray in order to appeal to presidential primary voters.

Early indications suggest the answer is, "Pretty far."

In February 2000, for example, then-presidential candidate McCain traveled to Virginia Beach, home of Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, in advance of Virginia's GOP primary. Taking what he said was a principled stand, McCain blasted the religious right.

"We are the party of Ronald Reagan, not Pat Robertson," McCain said, adding, "Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton on the left, or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right."

That was then. Just last month, McCain's office confirmed that the senator has been chatting with Falwell. Given the context of McCain's presidential ambitions, it's probably safe to assume the senator didn't give Falwell a private audience just so he could remind the TV preacher that he's an "agent of intolerance."

McCain isn't in a comfortable position. He angers the right by fighting Bush on torture, but then angers everyone else by embracing a rigid state ban on gay marriage and intelligent design. He makes one side happy with a vote on repealing the estate tax, but disappoints the exact same people with the Gang of 14 compromise. He backs Bush on privatizing Social Security and the war, but lets Bush down on stem-cell research and campaign-finance reform.

My friend Ari Berman recently explained that McCain has "an uncomfortable predicament for a pragmatic problem solver." Somehow, I doubt his "let the student decide" pronouncement will make things any easier.

Steve Benen 4:23 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (129)

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Comments

It would be nice if Mr. "Straight Talk Express" McCain would give the fundamentalists in his party a bit of it on this issme, as Judge Jones did in Kitzmiller vs. Dover.

Posted by: David W. on December 27, 2005 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

It seems pandering to the catatonic voter, the
public who respond first to the rubber-knee-hammer,
is the strategy of success. Hillary has been making
me wretch more with each passing day. McCain is
watching her and following suit.

If the public does not achieve total consciousness
and begin to refine their individual hard-drives
with real data on who and what to vote for, nothing
will change.

Posted by: Semanticleo on December 27, 2005 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

McCain's trouble really speaks to something broader that is wrong with American politics today, and maybe has always been wrong with American politics.

If you're going to be a maverick, contrarian, or otherwise fiercely independent and individualistic politician/talking head/high school English teacher could you please do us all a service and be one of these on behalf of core American values like liberty, humanity, rationalism and constitutionality rather than the police state, repression, and cultural backwardness?

With a few notable exceptions, today's cosnervatives have become mindless Bush hacks, so they're generally not worth discussing.

But for all you liberal would-be contrarians, mavericks, and fiercely independent types, let me help you out.

Arguing in favor of Arab-Muslim democracy, school vouchers, the importance of culture in self-regulation, second amendment rights, free markets and deregulation, and building enough housing so that middle class people can afford to live where and how they want to and other conservative positions of this ilk is in the best tradition of American values of liberty and decency.

Arguing for the surveillance state, the death penalty (particularly after fifteen years of falling crime), against gay rights and reproductive rights, for the drug war, populist demagogy and for the bankruptcy bill places you in the worst tradition of American values. It makes you the *bad* kind of maverick (are you listening Mickey Kaus?).

Posted by: Blue Nomad on December 27, 2005 at 4:42 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, let the student decide. Considering that the student will enter into the situation knowing little or nothing about biology or evolution, they will be in a perfect position to make a rational choice between proven science and faith-based mythology.

Fuck McCain. While I admire his experience and a few of his supposed "straight-talk" positions, he's as much of a weak-knee hypocrit as any who wear the Republican label. For all you Democrats who look at him and say, "Oooh! There's a Republican I could vote for!", you're just deluding yourself. McCain is as craven as they come, and he'll sell out every position you support to further his own ambitions.

Consider how chummy he was and is with Bush, despite everything Bush has done to him. That alone tells me everything I need to know about McCain's political character and integrity: He has none of either.

Posted by: Derelict on December 27, 2005 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

David W.,

McCain would first have to believe what Mr. Jones beleives in order to say what Mr. Jones said.

Posted by: B on December 27, 2005 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

I for one am not fooled by McCain. He is to the right of BUSH on this war, being a true believer in the Bush doctrine of continued preemptive war and "democracy promotion." Being that Iraq will be an american obsession through 2008 and beyond this makes McCain the media darling if he gets the nomination, which I think he is almost certain to get.

Posted by: greg wirth on December 27, 2005 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

Recall when Bush went to Arizona to sell his Soc. Sec. deform package and McCain went with him. McCain told Arizona citizens that Soc. Sec. would not be able to write any more benefit checks after 2042. This sounded quite at odds with the fact so I wrote the Senator. His staff sent back a fairly accurate description of Soc. Sec. long-run finances, which completely contradicted what McCain had told the citizens of Arizona. Somehow they got McCain's signature on the letter. I hate to say this - but this letter is a clear indication that McCain LIED to his own citizens on this issue.

Posted by: pgl on December 27, 2005 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK

McCain would first have to believe what Mr. Jones believes in order to say what Mr. Jones said.

I think he probably does, but he chooses not to say it in order to avoid dealing with the matter head on and not piss off the religious right base of the Republican Party. The fact that taking such a position compromises him if the matter ever comes up before him as President is something he may come to regret.

Thankfully, Judge Jones did such a devastating job on intelligent design in his decision that I think the creationists are on the retreat for the next few years at least.

Posted by: David W. on December 27, 2005 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

I voted for McCain in the 2000 MI primary, hey the other choice was Bush. But I would never vote for him again, for all of the reasons that have been stated.
I do, as an educator, find his "let students decide" comment. Yes, let's let students decide on how to construct sentences. Let's let students decide how to factor quadratics. Let's let students decide what the proper safety procedures are for welding. Let's let students decide on the classes they would like to take. Let's let students decide if for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Let's let students decide which of the Constitutional ammendments should be respected. Oops, we already have that in the White House. I guess this let students decide thing has already been tried. Do we like the results?

Posted by: newtons.third on December 27, 2005 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

What the hell does he mean let when he says the students decide. As I recall high school students are simply exposed to information presented to them. They don't have any choice. That is the job of the teacher or the school district.

Now when the student gets to college he can decide whether he wants to take one class or another depending on the content and the reputation of the teacher. If some university biology department wanted to teach "intelligent design" it could and its class would be ignored by serious biology students. The college would also have to change it's name to Bob Jones University or something like that.

Posted by: Ron Byers on December 27, 2005 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

Let the students decide?

Either it was a mindless impromptu ingratiating comment meant to make him somehow look cool to MTV viewers, or he can no longer be taken seriously.

Posted by: E. Henry Thripshaw on December 27, 2005 at 5:04 PM | PERMALINK

he's as fucking craven in his pandering as hillary clinton. some friggin choice for 2008.

Posted by: linda on December 27, 2005 at 5:07 PM | PERMALINK

McCain loves the spotlight but has no principles. He's a straight talker when he wants to be or when it won't hurt him. How can he act civilly around Bush after what was done to him in S.C.?
Sadly, he may be the best of an increasingly bad lot for 08. Hillary has thrown away whatever advantage she had, the Dems are unable to articulate anything of note. The only good news is that the raging incompetence of the administration may bode well.
Personally, if any reps or senators voted for the war, they need to go down. Frankly, every incumbent shoulod be turned out, could a completely new batch be worse?

Posted by: TJM on December 27, 2005 at 5:12 PM | PERMALINK

If you let students decide what is taught in school you'll have many classes studying the life of Brittney Spears.

McCain is trying to be all things to all people and as a result, he's nothing.

Posted by: pissed off patricia on December 27, 2005 at 5:12 PM | PERMALINK

"Letting the students decide" would not be a problem if - first - the students had been equipped to think critically.

I have long advocated reviving the trivium, the ancient arts of grammar, rhetoric, and logic, as the foundation of education. Essentially, such an education would equip one to think clearly and to express oneself well. At the same time, it would equip one to detect faults in others' presentation.

After having completed the trivium, students then would go on to study the quadrivium, the sciences. Biology, in modern terms, would be part of the quadrivium.

Posted by: Thinker on December 27, 2005 at 5:16 PM | PERMALINK

Students don't have the capacity to decide, that's why they're students.

Posted by: cld on December 27, 2005 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

The carpet bag Senator from Arizona is a War Pig who helped validate the Bush war on the Iraqi peoples. Although he served his time and punsishment for dropping bombs on children, his name should always be prefaced with War Criminal.

Posted by: Hostile on December 27, 2005 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Like Lieberman, McCain thrives nationally by being seen as iconoclastic with respect to his own party, and spinning that (through ignorant reporters) as being "moderate". In some ways he is. Unfortunately, again like Lieberman, he's usually moderate on the wrong issues. Ah, well. McCain forever lost me with the McCain-Feingold Anti-First-Amendment travesty.

Posted by: Shelby on December 27, 2005 at 5:21 PM | PERMALINK

Here I am, catching up reading the posts this fine Tuesday, and I find that Steve and Paul have touched on issues that are near and dear. Have students decide, as previously posted, I think is full of something. Then I go and read Paul Glastris' post on the effects of NCLB.
Let me give another nail for NCLB, as implemented. I have a BS with a major in physics, and a minor in math. I am "highly qualified" to teach physics and math in the state of Michigan. This past summer, I had interviews in quite a few school districts for science jobs. But in the course of these interviews, inevitably my certification would come up. While I am highly qualified to teach physics, I am not "highly qualified" to teach "science". The differtence? Someone highly qualified to teach science can teach ANY science class, whereas if you are highly qualified to teach physics, you can only teach physics, same for biology, chemistry, etc... I see this as the dumbing down of the sciences, as why would you hire a specialist, when you can hire a generalist and put them anywhere?
The end result? I am teaching the lowest level of math that a high school has to offer. And no science whatsoever. Nice, huh?

Posted by: newtons.third on December 27, 2005 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

Somebody save that statement of his, to be thrown back in his face in 2008. "Let the student decide" indeed! Let the student decide OUTSIDE of class.

Posted by: Hedley Lamarr on December 27, 2005 at 5:28 PM | PERMALINK

No, no, no, Steve. It's Al Gore who will "say anything to get elected."

Don't you read the papers?

Posted by: Quaker in a Basement on December 27, 2005 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

If you let the students decide between evolution and ID 80% of them will vote to scrap this biology shit altogether and make videogaming part of the core curriculum.

Posted by: ogmb on December 27, 2005 at 5:34 PM | PERMALINK

It has been a waste of pixels to write about McCain ever since he publicly hugged the King who stabbed him in 2000.

Posted by: lib on December 27, 2005 at 5:37 PM | PERMALINK

I think he probably does, but he chooses not to say it in order to avoid dealing with the matter head on and not piss off the religious right

McCain rides high on the good feelings of people who don't really know what he thinks but make the assumption that he believes what they believe. The man thinks the NSF is pork barrel spending for christs sake.

Posted by: B on December 27, 2005 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

Students don't have the capacity to decide, that's why they're students.
Posted by: cld on December 27, 2005 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

It is also why we don't allow anyone to vote until they are 18.

Posted by: rainyday on December 27, 2005 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

I've never understood what McCain's appeal is supposed to be. He's a pompous jerk? They're all pompous jerks. He speaks for the unrepresented moron? They all do that.

He thinks we owe him one and everyone else can drop dead.

Posted by: cld on December 27, 2005 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

Now if he felt the same about the Iraq War as he did about creationism . . .

Posted by: B on December 27, 2005 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

The last two letters of my handle are a state abbreviation, denoting my place of residence. Let's just say, I know John McCain's work pretty well.

Let me be blunt: The man is ambitious beyond your wildest dreams, and is a political whore. Yeah, I know he's a POW hero and all that. Fine, give him the requisite points for that. But make no mistake, he will pander as much as any politician you have ever seen, to the extent that AFAIC, his pandering is disqualifying for the nation's highest job.

Posted by: ppGaz on December 27, 2005 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK

Matt Yglesias recently said that McCain is "more honest than the conventional Republican, but basically has the same worldview."

Actually, McCain's problem is that he is so visibly out of touch with the Republican base on so many issues. He has never been able to fake any visible interest in social issues like abortion or affirmative action, on the matter of free speech (see campaign finance "reform") and he is totally out of touch on immigration, which is a huge and growing concern with conservatives. His pandering to the ID folks is a pathetic attempt to look appealing to a group that doesn't find him appealing. McCain has no shot of winning the Republican nomination, and this shows he's getting desperate.

Posted by: Alan on December 27, 2005 at 5:52 PM | PERMALINK

I have to admit I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries. As both races were pretty much decided by that point, it was more to fart in the general direction of George W. Bush than anything else.

But never again. McCain's last chance was in 2000 anyway.

Posted by: mwg on December 27, 2005 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

What has McCain done besides being shot down in an airplane to gain this level of attention? The guy is a Goldwater-like lightweight. Oh wait, he's perfect.

Posted by: Pechorin on December 27, 2005 at 6:00 PM | PERMALINK

McCain is a GOP hack. I should know, my kind bought and paid for him. I have the cancelled checks to prove it.

Posted by: kaptain kapital on December 27, 2005 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK

Fuck McCain ... he's as much of a weak-knee hypocrit as any who wear the Republican label. ... McCain is as craven as they come, and he'll sell out every position you support to further his own ambitions.

Posted by: Derelict

Amen. And the dems better take this clown out now by calling him on all his hypocrisy.

Posted by: Econo Buzz on December 27, 2005 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone had a chance to ask Marshall Whittman about McCain's "position" on this? I'm typically pretty amazed by the contortions the Moose goes through to defend his hero.

Posted by: Edo on December 27, 2005 at 6:01 PM | PERMALINK

the moooose loves all who wear the uniform, like dear leader. droooool!

Posted by: bullshit moose on December 27, 2005 at 6:16 PM | PERMALINK

The media love McCain as a guest, nobody is going to call him out on anything. He'll have another book written for him and then he'll make the rounds and they'll all smile and thank him and reinforce the straight talk persona. In the eyes of the media,that's who he is and no one is going to go against the grain. The media doesn't care what you or I think he is,they know what he is. Just as they trashed Gore, the love McCain.
"Duke" Cunningham was a war hero,too.

Posted by: TJM on December 27, 2005 at 6:17 PM | PERMALINK

"LET THE STUDENT DECIDE"

Well, ok. But let's include Sex Education and Contraception as well.

Posted by: liberalMinded on December 27, 2005 at 6:20 PM | PERMALINK

McCain looks good next to GWB and other Republican leaders. That's not saying much.

Too bad he didn't tear into GWB twice as hard after the South Carolina primary fiasco.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on December 27, 2005 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK

Well, ok. But let's include Sex Education and Contraception as well.

And let's not forget gay marriage and abortion....

Posted by: Stefan on December 27, 2005 at 6:29 PM | PERMALINK

The thing that strikes me about "LET THE STUDENT DECIDE" is how Reaganesque that statement is. It's truly juvenile, perhaps appealing to some students at about the 8th grade level.

Ive never known how conservative politicians get away with such silliness. How does a politician demonstrate such shallowness (trees cause more pollution...) and survive in the adult world?

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on December 27, 2005 at 6:32 PM | PERMALINK

How can he not be obsessed with being President? If South Carolinians had not believed he has a bastard black child, he would be President.

Posted by: jimmy on December 27, 2005 at 6:39 PM | PERMALINK

E. Henry Thripshaw wrote: Either it was a mindless impromptu ingratiating comment meant to make him somehow look cool to MTV viewers, or he can no longer be taken seriously.

Or, it was a mindless impromptu ingratiating comment meant to make him somehow look cool to MTV viewers, and he can no longer be taken seriously.

"Let the student decide" -- come on, does anybody really think that any kid of any generation really believes that any adult really means that about anything?

At least when Bill Clinton went on MTV, he played the saxophone. You know, everything else for better or worse about Bill Clinton aside, I always thought it was cool that he played the saxophone.

And when he was asked about smoking pot and told the MTV audience that he "didn't inhale", I think everyone knew that he didn't intend that to be taken seriously. Especially since he played the saxophone.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on December 27, 2005 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK


I'm pretty sure most students, if exposed to all the "theories", will choose the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the most reasonable conclusion.

Posted by: loser on December 27, 2005 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK

I knew it could be as simple as you suggest in your piece on John McCain.

Here is alittle more of what was said:

"McCain also weighed in on the ongoing debate over Charles Darwin's theory of evolution versus the argument for "intelligent design," and whether the latter should be taught in science classes.

"Every young American should be exposed to every point of view," he posited. "I'm not saying [intelligent design] should be taught in science classes. But I'm saying young people should be exposed to it. I also believe that God had a hand in creation. I certainly don't believe the Earth was created in seven days. But when I stand on the rim of the Grand Canyon and look at that grandeur, I detect the hand of God there in the time before time. I see no reason why students should not be exposed to all theories, recognizing that Darwin's theory's certainly one that is generally accepted in most of the scientific community. I think it's not inappropriate to say there are also people who believe this. Let the student decide."


He said
"I'm not saying [intelligent design] should be taught in science classes."
That certainly does not say as you suggest:
"but by saying that students should decide whether to learn pseudoscience alongside modern biology, McCain appears willing to make science classes popularity contests. "

That is a classic example of taking a phrase out of context.

Posted by: berlins on December 27, 2005 at 6:59 PM | PERMALINK

His words are right when applied to children at the young ages, when their world models are starting to be shaped by reality testing, rather than myth. Generally, in the first grade science classes, simple experimental methods make it simple for this matter to be decided on the child's own.

The diversity of insect collections, frogs and lizards make for a good feel for natural randomness. Add a snake or two, and nothing seems intelligent anymore.

If that doesn't do it, then show them a smelly, gooey, snotty birth of a bunch of rats, certainly enough to dispel any notion of intelligent design.

I lost intelligent design theory when I saw the dogs chomp a cute white bunny in two.


Posted by: Matt on December 27, 2005 at 7:11 PM | PERMALINK

P.S. If the child is still stuck at intelligent design at the age of twelve, a subscription to Mad Magazine has often cured.

Posted by: Matt on December 27, 2005 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

""""McCain said he'd like to see students decide whether to believe the earth is flat"""

I BELIEVE, AT THE TIME, BOTHT EH ROUND EARTH AND FLAT EARTH THEORIES WERE TAUGHT, UNTIL ENOUGH EVIDENCE WAS FOUND TO SETTLE THE THEORY WITH AN ACTUAL FACT.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT EVOLUTION FON NOTHING TO MAN AND THE BIG BANG, ETC. ARE ALL FACTS AND THEORY NO LONGER APPLIES???

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:15 PM | PERMALINK

It took a pretty INTELLIGENT DESIGNER TO THINK UP EVOLUTION AND A BIG BANG. HE/SHE/IT CAME UP WITH SOME GREAT DESIGNS.

How does EVOLUTION discount the theory that an intelligence was behind everything? NOT GOD, but say it is a 400 ton alien cyclops named Stanley with seven brains that started this whole universe thing??

Ohh yeah, I forgot....Clintons penis!

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:18 PM | PERMALINK

Patton,

I think you missed your calling doing standup.

Posted by: berlins on December 27, 2005 at 7:24 PM | PERMALINK

60 years ago, liberals KNEW Hitler could be appeased and didn't want to dominate Europe and kill all the Jews.

37 years ago, liberals KNEW American soldiers were raping the countryside of Vietnam and John Kerry was escorting CIA agents into Cambodia on the orders of an as yet unelected President Nixon.

30 years ago liberals KNEW we were about to start another Ice Age due to using fossil fuels.

25 years ago Liberals KNEW we had to appease the Soveit Union and learn to live with them because Communism was inevitable.

8 years ago liberals KNEW Bill Clinton couldn't possibly have been sodomize interns in the Oval Office.

4 years ago liberals KNEW they had to go to war against Saddam Hussein because of his WMD.

Two weeks ago liberals KNEW Iraq could have an election and be a Democray.

Imagine what liberals will KNOW tomorrow!

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:25 PM | PERMALINK

Berlins, if I said Bill Clinton was behind creating the Universe, liberals would immediately embrace the concept.

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:27 PM | PERMALINK

berlins: your summary is not exactly convincing. McCain sounds completely confused.

I see no reason why students should not be exposed to all theories, recognizing that Darwin's theory's certainly one that is generally accepted in most of the scientific community. I think it's not inappropriate to say there are also people who believe this. Let the student decide."

He is equating the theories of evolution and intelligent design, whereas, the scientific community does not accept that intelligent design is a theory at all. Scientist note that is cannot be tested, that it has nothing to do with science.

Evolution is a scientific theory that has been tested, applied to existing evidence, and accepted as fact. ID is not even recognized as a scientific theory at all. Apples and oranges, science and non-science. McCain does not seem to grasp this.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on December 27, 2005 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

ACtually Patton, it was XENU and his space DC-10's who flew to Earth with the frozen souls of billions of people and flung them down into a volcano.

Stop me if you've heard this one before....

Posted by: Zeh Knew on December 27, 2005 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

When are McCain enablers like BigMedia Matt and Kevin Drum going to realize that "the Straight-Talk Express" is sheer expeditious artifice. Check McCain's voting record.

Posted by: dick tuck on December 27, 2005 at 7:29 PM | PERMALINK

Were there actually a theory of intelligent design, McCain would have a point. Thing is, there isn't one. It's still pandering, even in context.

Sorry to feed the trolls (real or fake), but wasn't it the Republicans who wanted America to stay out of WW II? Why, yes, it was.

Posted by: mwg on December 27, 2005 at 7:33 PM | PERMALINK

Why is this at all surprising? McCain was willing to make nice with a man whose campaign viciously slandered his family- not just bury the hatchet, but campaign for him and support him vigorously. Anyone willing to do that has shown they have no principles. If he's willing to sell out his family in hopes of future political gain, selling out science is small potatoes by comparison.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on December 27, 2005 at 7:33 PM | PERMALINK

If you would like to see the rest of what McCain really said:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1519109/20051221/index.jhtml?headlines=true

Posted by: berlins on December 27, 2005 at 7:34 PM | PERMALINK

After reading this blog for a few months, I have a pretty good idea who is obsessed with Clinton and his anatomy.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on December 27, 2005 at 7:34 PM | PERMALINK

I don't see where the statement was out of context at all. McCain was,as usual,careful to touch as many bases as he thought there were on the field. He covered the not in science class base for anybody who thinks (knows) that ID isn't science. Then he said "...I stand on the rim of the Grand Canyon...I detect the hand of God" for those who believe that erosion is just a theor,too. Then he dropped back to "that Darwin's theory's certainly one that is generally accepted...I think it's not inappropriate to say there are also people who believe this. Let the student decide."
That's about as good a case as the Discovery Institute made in Harrisburg during the Dover,Pa. trial. He made no attempt to say that perhaps college students should be exposed to it or high school or maybe Kindergarten students should decide. No, it wasn't out of context but I have to say it was out of content,completely empty. He's a beer candidate,less filling tastes great.

Posted by: TJM on December 27, 2005 at 7:39 PM | PERMALINK

Derelict,

Right on.

Fuck McCain.

Posted by: Vinnie on December 27, 2005 at 7:43 PM | PERMALINK

little jim,

McCain said
"I'm not saying [intelligent design] should be taught in science classes."

Did you miss that quote.

and Jim if theories were indeed accepted as facts they would no longer be theories but facts.

Posted by: berlins on December 27, 2005 at 7:43 PM | PERMALINK

Lets take TWO rooms,

One room has nothing in it, the other room is full of intelligent beings.

Lets see which room builds something first......

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:46 PM | PERMALINK

We already clutter up the school year teaching kids about 40 nags and spinsters that hobnobbed at Seneca Falls, NY. We think teaching them the inventor of the traffic light was more important than the Wright brothers. We teach them that Toni Morrison is more important than Shakespeare, but Gaia forbid we put aside 5 minutes to do something to pander to the Ned Flanders set.

Posted by: minion of rove on December 27, 2005 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

TJM,

I am not a McCain supporter, however, if you feel that McCains words were not taken out of context why did you have to except what I put in the blog and not what was written in the original post. because the original post barely had any of McCains actual words. Benen took 4 words and twisted them completely out of context.

Posted by: berlins on December 27, 2005 at 7:52 PM | PERMALINK

berlins,
The point is that McCain made a common error, he spoke of both ID and Evolution as theories of the same kind.

A scientific theory can absolutely be accepted as fact, go do a little research on "the scientific method". Relativity is just such a theory. Science currently refers to it as a theory that is supported fact and has become accepted as fact itself. Same for Evolution.

ID? Not even close to being accepted as a scientific theory, much less fact. It's just not science.

On the other hand

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on December 27, 2005 at 7:53 PM | PERMALINK

60 years ago, liberals KNEW Hitler could be appeased and didn't want to dominate Europe and kill all the Jews.

Patton, this is an scurrilous lie. Sixty years ago, many in the moonbat wing of the GOP was sucking up to Hitler (that Bush fella for one)--they believed he had a good plan to fight 'godless bolshevism'. Certain members of the DuPonts were actively plotting the illegal overthrow of the U.S. government, driven to the brink of madness by the New Deal. Go peddle that line of crap to the goofballs on powerline.

Posted by: bobbyp on December 27, 2005 at 8:19 PM | PERMALINK

even when mccain spouts this:

"Every young American should be exposed to every point of view," he posited. "I'm not saying [intelligent design] should be taught in science classes. But I'm saying young people should be exposed to it.

The implication in "let the students decide" is that the competing ideas are somehow equivalent, and that choosing one over the other is a matter of perspective, research, and preference.

This falsely elevates ID to par with evolution. It isn't, and the christofascists which spew this bullshit use exactly these techniques to insinuate that the two really are, or should be, equal.

That was mccain's sin ... implying equality where there is none.

Posted by: Nads on December 27, 2005 at 8:20 PM | PERMALINK

Lets take TWO rooms,

One room has nothing in it, the other room is full of intelligent beings.

Lets see which room builds something first....

Posted by: Patton on December 27, 2005 at 7:46 PM | PERMALINK

If both rooms are locked and the "intelligent beings" are all republicans, then it will, with near certainty, be a dead heat.

Posted by: bobbyp on December 27, 2005 at 8:23 PM | PERMALINK

so like, can we extend this concept to the economic sphere and let me like decide which salary I prefer?

Posted by: just askin' on December 27, 2005 at 8:53 PM | PERMALINK

McCain is living proof of how weak the Republican field is for 2008. What they have is a strong machine, which is the only way one can explain Bush's near election in 2000 and his possible one in 2004. Anyone who claims the nomination gets the machine. But to claim the nomination he needs to satisfy the radical religious right. McCain is doing what any Republican candidate must do to get nominated. That says a lot about the Republican party. That Republicans control all branches of the national government says alot about the country.

Posted by: Knut Wicksell on December 27, 2005 at 8:59 PM | PERMALINK

No one cares what they believe. Let them learn what Darwinian evolution is, and better, what a scientific theory (like gravity) is, so that they are able to explain what they have learned on a rigorous exam. Afterwards they are as free to believe whatever they want as they always were, but at least they'll know what they are talking about.

Posted by: Harold on December 27, 2005 at 9:04 PM | PERMALINK

Running for President seems to be...not as torturous as his previous endevours.

Posted by: busdrivermike on December 27, 2005 at 9:04 PM | PERMALINK

I've got an answer to McCain:

Let the VOTER decide :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 27, 2005 at 9:16 PM | PERMALINK

Steve, for you to call ID a "pseudoscience" is really insulting for the scientists among the Washington Monthly crowd. Call a pig a pig. ID is religious propoganda. Everybody who looks at it knows it's simply creationism dressed up like a pig. It's still a pig.

Posted by: ernie on December 27, 2005 at 9:28 PM | PERMALINK

It can't be a pig, not with all that pretty lipstick

Posted by: American Voter on December 27, 2005 at 9:31 PM | PERMALINK

All of this evolution and intelligent design - I'm so confused - the theories, laws or whatever are tumbling through my twisted brain.

I mean what is so confusing is that after attempting to read PATTON!!!, if there truly is evolution, why hasn't she/he evolved beyond the Neanderthal stage? - if there is "Intelligent design", why was she/he designed by a Neanderthal?

My apoligies to any Neanderthal living, dead or evolving.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on December 27, 2005 at 9:41 PM | PERMALINK

thethirdPaul,
Actually, evidence suggests that the Neanderthals had a relatively sophisticated culture. They also had brains somewhat larger than modern homo sapiens. I think the individual you are referring to is more along the lines of an australopithicene.

Unless, that is, australopithicenes had gotten farther along in their cultural evolution than the feces-flinging stage, in which case I owe them an apology.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on December 27, 2005 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

My apoligies to any Neanderthal living, dead or evolving.


No probs PttO. Apologies accepted. (or maybe it's just I sometimes feel like a Neanderthal adjusting to this New World Order).

Posted by: snicker-snack on December 27, 2005 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

God, McCain has become a sad little man. The Italian Fascists couldn't break Bob Dole. Being shot down by the Japanese didn't break George HW Bush. Five years in the Hanoi Hilton didn't break John McCain. But Karl Rove, James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Jerry Freakin' Falwell turned them all into sniveling, belly-crawling little cretins, while elevating a delusional lackwit to the status of American icon, at least to 50.8 per cent of the population. This is today's Republican party. What a sad, pathetic, cynical lot they are. And what a sad country we have become with men like this in charge.

Posted by: jimwhoisnottheotherjims on December 27, 2005 at 10:56 PM | PERMALINK

Here's all of McCain's comments on ID, so you guys won't look so stupid forming a complete opinion on an absolute minimum of words...

McCain also weighed in on the ongoing debate over Charles Darwin's theory of evolution versus the argument for "intelligent design," and whether the latter should be taught in science classes.

"Every young American should be exposed to every point of view," he posited. "I'm not saying [intelligent design] should be taught in science classes. But I'm saying young people should be exposed to it. I also believe that God had a hand in creation. I certainly don't believe the Earth was created in seven days. But when I stand on the rim of the Grand Canyon and look at that grandeur, I detect the hand of God there in the time before time. I see no reason why students should not be exposed to all theories, recognizing that Darwin's theory's certainly one that is generally accepted in most of the scientific community. I think it's not inappropriate to say there are also people who believe this. Let the student decide."

Posted by: Red State Mike on December 27, 2005 at 10:57 PM | PERMALINK

OK, berlin already quoted it. Never mind.

Emily Latella

Posted by: Red State Mike on December 27, 2005 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

"One room has nothing in it, the other room is full of intelligent beings.

Lets see which room builds something first......"

I assume you will be in the empty room.

Posted by: solar on December 27, 2005 at 11:08 PM | PERMALINK

What's thoroughly nauseating about McCain's quote is the penultimate sentence:

"I think it's not inappropriate to say that there are also people who believe this."

Aside from the mealy-mouthed double-negative equivocation from Mr. Straight Talk, what the asshole is doing is lumping the science of evolution in with metaphysical belief systems.

As if scientists "believe" evolution the way that religious people believe God.

Scientists will be the very first people to drop Charles Darwin like a hot spud if he's ever definitively proven wrong.

Belief, shmelief. It's about evidence and tested hypotheses.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 27, 2005 at 11:17 PM | PERMALINK


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Posted by: 飞机票 on December 27, 2005 at 11:22 PM | PERMALINK

"Students don't have the capacity to decide, that's why they're students."

"It is also why we don't allow anyone to vote until they are 18."

Now, getting an abortion? That's another matter. Guess that's not considered much of a decision.

As for McCain, his popularity with the Left was going to last only as long as he could be used as a weapon against the Republicans. Not five seconds more.

Posted by: tbrosz on December 27, 2005 at 11:22 PM | PERMALINK

"I assume you will be in the empty room."
Sure, to keep you company.

Talk about meaningless bafflegab. Notice how far the collective IQ drops when Patton shows up?

"Let the students decide"

Smacks of Mao during the Cultural Revolution. The implication was that they should murder their teachers. 'Nuff said?

Posted by: Kenji on December 27, 2005 at 11:24 PM | PERMALINK

As for McCain, his popularity with the Left was going to last only as long as he could be used as a weapon against the Republicans. Not five seconds more.
Posted by: tbrosz

It's more than he deserves.

Posted by: Nads on December 27, 2005 at 11:45 PM | PERMALINK

Guest bloggers should never guest blog as if they will never guest blog again. No one likes a chatterbox.

John McCain has clearly not devoted a lot of thought to teaching evolution in the schools. He is very likely not going to do it anytime soon. This is one of those issues that a President, or potential Presidential candidate, has no need to try to decide himself. It is true that to some liberals no response to intelligent design or religion generally that does not involve garlic and silver stakes will ever be acceptable. But, really, McCain would be a fool to believe that liberals of this type would ever vote for him.

Posted by: Zathras on December 27, 2005 at 11:46 PM | PERMALINK

"I think it's not inappropriate to say that there are also people who believe this."

Aside from the mealy-mouthed double-negative equivocation from Mr. Straight Talk, what the asshole is doing is lumping the science of evolution in with metaphysical belief systems.

First, his double negative is not a double negative. "Not inappropriate" does not equal "appropriate".

Second, I think it's absolutely correct to say that there are people who believe strongly in their religion's version of creation. Are saying that's not true?

Third, he says students should be exposed to alternate creation stories, but he's not saying they should be taught in science class.

Fourth, what is he saying the student should decide? What should be taught in science class, or what he believes? If the first... bad idea. If the second...absolutely.

Posted by: Red State Mike on December 27, 2005 at 11:49 PM | PERMALINK

As for McCain, his popularity with the Left was going to last only as long as he could be used as a weapon against the Republicans. Not five seconds more

Actually Tom, I've always liked him. Until he decided to sell out his principles for a possible 2008 nomination. Then there was the Katrina birthday party. Shameful. The anti-torture stance is admirable, but it would take a near miracle for me to support him after last year. Kissing Rove's butt after New Hampshire 2000...eeeugh

Posted by: LW Phil on December 27, 2005 at 11:51 PM | PERMALINK

I see no reason why students should not be exposed to all theories, recognizing that Darwin's theory's certainly one that is generally accepted in most of the scientific community. I think it's not inappropriate to say there are also people who believe this. Let the student decide."

actually, this latter portion suggests that mccain is equating evolution and ID as equally acceptable alternatives. ... which does a disservice to evolution, and falsely elevates ID.

Posted by: Nads on December 27, 2005 at 11:55 PM | PERMALINK

Do you guys have the frozen food company called McCains in the US? After reading this story, and commentators listing all the reasons they'd never trust him or vote for him, I keep having the McCains' jingle running through my mind:

"Ah McCains... you've done it again".

Most apt.

Posted by: floopmeister on December 27, 2005 at 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

Now, getting an abortion? That's another matter. Guess that's not considered much of a decision.
Posted by: tbrosz

that's what we doctors are there for ... to make up for your deficiencies as a parent.

I'm sure if you did your job, and your pregnant daughter opted for an abortion, she would tell you. Otherwise, thanks for trying, but we'll take it from here.

Posted by: Nads on December 28, 2005 at 12:02 AM | PERMALINK

I think Berlins is really mischaracterizing McCain's line about not believing ID should be taught in schools. If you look at the quote, that line is really inconsistent with just about everything else McCain said in the quote. McCain said a couple of times that the students should "be exposed to all the theories." That sounds a hell of a lot like he's advocating for ID to be a mandatory part of education. And then he says, "Let the student decide."

We could just as well be arguing about McCain's apparent endorsement of mandatory ID training in public schools. He was actually so all over the place, characterizing the quote isn't so cut and dry.

If I have to judge, though, I'd call the "I'm not saying teach them ID" line a piece of bullshit thrown in to make the quote hard to pin down. I don't think you can really call it a statement of opposition to any teaching of ID in schools.

Also, there was something else wrong with what McCain said- Nads' comment upthread about the "let them decide" line- McCain essentially ignored the issue about ID. What's implicit in his comments is that either he thinks it's not even worth his time to think about, or, he thinks teaching ID in school is just as worthwhile as teaching Darwin.

Posted by: Swan on December 28, 2005 at 12:02 AM | PERMALINK

actually, this latter portion suggests that mccain is equating evolution and ID as equally acceptable alternatives.

No it doesn't. He's recognizing that there's a load of folks out there who believe in other theories, particularly ID-ish ones.

What is he "letting the student decide?" What to teach? Or what to believe?

Posted by: Red State Mike on December 28, 2005 at 12:07 AM | PERMALINK

In the last sentence of my last comment, "his comments" means McCain's, just to be clear.

Posted by: Swan on December 28, 2005 at 12:09 AM | PERMALINK

Red State Mike:

> ""I think it's not inappropriate to say that there are also
> people who believe this.""

> "Aside from the mealy-mouthed double-negative equivocation
> from Mr. Straight Talk, what the asshole is doing is lumping
> the science of evolution in with metaphysical belief systems."

> First, his double negative is not a double negative. "Not
> inappropriate" does not equal "appropriate".

Oh please, Mike. That is so freakin' jesuitical it makes you sound
like ... John Kerry :) It is absolutely a double negative, with
a rhetorical dampening that makes that phraseology *equivocal*.

Equivocal. Mealy-mouthed. "Diplomatic," if you prefer.

Anything but *blunt, straight talking.*

> Second, I think it's absolutely correct to say that there are people
> who believe strongly in their religion's version of creation. Are
> saying that's not true?

*rolling eyes* ... Follow the context, dude. That sentence referred
to people who "believe" evolution, not to religious believers.

> Third, he says students should be exposed to alternate creation
> stories, but he's not saying they should be taught in science class.

But he's not *not* saying it, either. The implication hangs in
the air, if you consider that the recent controversy was *all
about* airing "alternatives" to darwin *in* a biology class.

It's called dropping code-phrases. Like when Bush talks about Dred
Scott as a bad decision when everybody knows he means Roe v Wade.

> Fourth, what is he saying the student should decide? What should be
> taught in science class, or what he believes? If the first... bad
> idea. If the second...absolutely.

The student should be taught what he believes in a science class?

You got this confused, I can only hope.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 12:24 AM | PERMALINK

No it doesn't. He's recognizing that there's a load of folks out there who believe in other theories, particularly ID-ish ones.
What is he "letting the student decide?" What to teach? Or what to believe?
Posted by: Red State Mike

he's suggesting that both make it into school curriculum. ... one doesn't belong there.

If the choice were between a classroom and a sunday school class, I'd let mccain's statement off the hook. but he doesn't say that; he says that STUDENTS should be exposed to all views, thereby implying that this belongs in classes. and despite a somewhat half-hearted disclaimer, this ends up being a science class, especially because that's how the half-wits in red america will interpret it.

Posted by: Nads on December 28, 2005 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

Um, maybe I am just a "fuzzy headed liberal" but I gotta ask, since it seems logical to me: Don't the kids need the exposure and the education in the sciences in order to make an informed decision?

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 12:44 AM | PERMALINK

McCain intentionally made his statement impossible to parse by speaking out of several sides of his mouth at once. He did this just so people could leap to his defense as being "reasonable" on the issue, when to the contrary he is being (uncharacteristically for him) a politician about it.

To try and derive some kind of meaningful policy from his ambiguities is a fruitless exercise, one whose energies are better spent in parody of those so eager to believe he's taken some kind of novel stand on the issue they're moved to interpret a whole system of thought out of his semiotic wanderings:


SHOE FOLLOWER:
He has given us... His shoe!
ARTHUR:
The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example.
SPIKE:
What?
ARTHUR:
Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise.
EDDIE:
Yes.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
No, no, no. The shoe is...
YOUTH:
No.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
...a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.
GIRL:
Cast off...
SPIKE:
Aye. What?
GIRL:
...the shoes! Follow the Gourd!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
No! Let us gather shoes together!
FRANK:
Yes.
SHOE FOLLOWER:
Let me!
ELSIE:
Oh, get off!
YOUTH:
No, no! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!
SHOE FOLLOWER:
Give me your shoe!
YOUTH:
Get off!
GIRL:
Follow the Gourd! The Holy Gourd of Jerusalem!

Posted by: Windhorse on December 28, 2005 at 1:02 AM | PERMALINK

Global:

That's a really suprising question coming from a professional scientist.

You don't make "informed decisions" on what are the facts. You don't get to choose which established scientific theories you get to "believe."

You can, of course, decide that the universe is so complex that only a supreme being could have created it through supernatural means -- and a lot of people (perhaps most) have reached that conclusion.

But this has exactly zero to do with making an "informed decision" about whether or not to "believe" evolution.

Evolution is not a matter of belief, nor opinion. In fact, in order to have *educated* opinions on some of the controversies raging in evolutionary science, you have to be well-educated in the discipline to begin with.

Choice has very little to do with it.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 1:10 AM | PERMALINK

This is a loser issue for McCain. Anyone with integrity will see he's just a scumbag politician, though one more convincing than most about his integrity, when he makes statements like "let the student decide" what to learn in Biology class.

The absurdity of such a position is breathtaking.

Posted by: Jimm on December 28, 2005 at 1:23 AM | PERMALINK

Bob: I'm working from the assumptiojn that anyone with a good, solid background and a lick of sense will come to the "right" conclusions.:)

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 1:29 AM | PERMALINK

More McCain doublespeak excerpted from this interview via Sciencegate:

Ashbrook: And you support the teaching of intelligent design in American schools? Is this an election-ready position?

McCain: No, I support the airing of all viewpoints in America, including Marxism, including socialism, including libertarianism, including--I think Americans should be exposed to all ideas and viewpoints. I don't think they should be excluded. I don't think they should be excluded.

Ashbrook: Why not teach that in a religion class, then? Why in the science part of the textbook?

McCain: Why teach Marxism, and why teach socialism, and why teach other theories?

Ashbrook: They may be welcome, but they're in political science, you wouldn't teach Marxism.

McCain: No they're not in political science, they're taught on their own. And I firmly believe that all points of view in America, the greatness of America is that all points of view should be, young Americans should be exposed to. And to say that there are people who believe that it was created by God, and that they don't agree with the theory of evolution, what's wrong with the clash of ideas in America?

Ashbrook: We understand--we've had almost all the biggest evolutionary biologists on this show at one point or another, E.O. Wilson will join us soon. They all agree that we're talking here about evolution. How do you put intelligent design in there, make a kind of equation between that and evolution science, and not undercut science itself, John McCain?

McCain: Because I believe, my belief, it was a time before time when the hand of God played a key role in the creation of this world. And I'm entitled to that belief. You may not hold it, but that's my belief, that God did create this incredible universe in which we reside, and every day I see manifestations, as Darwin did, of his work. But that does not mean.

Ashbrook: Some would say that it undercuts American kids' basic understanding of science. It predisposes them.

McCain: I'm not saying they shouldn't be taught evolution. I'm not saying they shouldn't be taught other scientific theories. I'm also saying that they should not be excluded from the viewpoint which I happen to hold, that God created this world, and that is not in contradiction of evolution, because I think God started it all.

Let us like him stand upon one foot, while the other is firmly wedged in our mouths, for that is his sign, that all who follow him do likewise.

Posted by: Windhorse on December 28, 2005 at 1:58 AM | PERMALINK

Other than abortion, is there any area of life where Democrats are in FAVOR of choice??

Posted by: GOPGregory on December 28, 2005 at 2:43 AM | PERMALINK

that's what we doctors are there for ... to make up for your deficiencies as a parent.

I'm sure if you did your job, and your pregnant daughter opted for an abortion, she would tell you. Otherwise, thanks for trying, but we'll take it from here.

I'm sorry, do you need a barrage balloon to help you haul that ego around?

I haven't noticed any part of the medical education system that, as a class, qualifies doctors to make moral decisions any more reliably than anyone else, particularly for other people's children.

Having an official "elite" decide, either liberal or conservative, what constitutes a "proper" education for everyone, is part of the problem with our state-controlled education system.

Posted by: tbrosz on December 28, 2005 at 2:52 AM | PERMALINK

I haven't noticed any part of the medical education system that, as a class, qualifies doctors to make moral decisions any more reliably than anyone else, particularly for other people's children.

ahh ... but then you aren't a doctor, but merely an engineer. ... I'm fairly certain you don't even possess the poser "PhD." ... what the fuck would tbroz know about med education?

Having an official "elite" decide, either liberal or conservative, what constitutes a "proper" education for everyone, is part of the problem with our state-controlled education system.
Posted by: tbrosz

better an educated, and therefore liberal, elite decide than ignorant religious megalomaniacs. ... or activists who aren't happy with the designated church-state separation, and insist upon unconstitutional bullshit like believing this is a xtian nation.

Posted by: Nads on December 28, 2005 at 2:59 AM | PERMALINK

tbrosz has some insider medical knowledge...His wife is a doctor of Pharmacy. Just saying...

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 3:39 AM | PERMALINK

BTW: Nads, being one of those arrogant, over-educated medical professional (working on a poser PhD in Neuro Sciences) I do tend to agree with you. Parents don't do their jobs, they live in a fantasy world, they live in denial. I don't see a lot of well-parented teenage mothers. That's just the way it is.

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 3:42 AM | PERMALINK

BTW: Nads, being one of those arrogant, over-educated medical professional (working on a poser PhD in Neuro Sciences)
Posted by: Global Citizen

errr ... sorry about that. ... consider it collateral damage in a flame war. full disclosure: my gf is finishing her phd, and I'm semi-considering getting one. I can get funding as an MD, but I think there may be something valuable in the phd training specific to what I want to do in the future. something I'm considering.

and we all know a bioscience phd is excluded from the aforementioned slur. ... ;)

Posted by: Nads on December 28, 2005 at 4:01 AM | PERMALINK

Didn't take it personally...We have put our backs together too many times on these boards! :)

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 4:04 AM | PERMALINK

patton: 60 years ago, liberals KNEW Hitler could be appeased and didn't want to dominate Europe and kill all the Jews.

I know this is feeding the trolls and that it's completely beyond the creature who posted the above, but even a 10 year old knows that it was FDR and all the liberals around him who prepared this country for war against Hitler and that it was the conservative American Firsters who had their heads in the sand.

Even a 10 year old knows this.

Posted by: truthBeTold on December 28, 2005 at 4:28 AM | PERMALINK

Evolution is a hard one to wrap yer li'l ole mind around.

I say, let the stupid decide.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 5:01 AM | PERMALINK

Evolution is a hard one to wrap yer li'l ole mind around.

But just because it blows a few peoples small, reptillian minds does not mean it ain't valid.

Posted by: Global Citizen on December 28, 2005 at 5:17 AM | PERMALINK

Global:

No, the stupid. Let the stupid decide.

The stupid body.
The stupid council.
The stupid associations that meet at the campus stupid center.

Stupid rights are important to stupids.
Stupid housing is a critical issue when it's time to move off-campus.
Dean of stupid life is a plum position.
Stupid faculty relations are critical to both stupids and faculty.
Stupid involvement in stupid activities is a vibrant sign.

My goal is to always remain a lifelong stupid.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 5:37 AM | PERMALINK

Don't pick on McCain for being a typical American doofus or for pretending to be one. Read this polling and weep. Democrats are scarcely less addled by scientific illiteracy and dingbat religion than Republicans. Even Al Gore sang McCain's tune before the 2000 elections. The only thing going for him was his insincerity.

America has world leading experts and institutions in all fields but no comparable nation gives a free pass to - worse, politically mandates - so much pseudo-scientific bunkum and so much hillbilly religion. It's the kool aid in which the whole nation swims. In no comparable nation is there anywhere near as much pervasive social pressure to be a borderline nutcase.

Posted by: AlanDownunder on December 28, 2005 at 5:37 AM | PERMALINK

AlanDownunder:

Democrats just aren't that brain-dead.

Name me one Democratic poll who had a kind word to say about Intelligent Design.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 5:40 AM | PERMALINK

Democratic pol, I should have written ...

Posted by: rmck1 on December 28, 2005 at 5:42 AM | PERMALINK

Bob,

get some sleep.

Posted by: berlins on December 28, 2005 at 6:24 AM | PERMALINK

Are we being told all we need to know about McCain's health? A Republican physician I met on vacation told me he understands that lump on the r.h.s. of McCain's face is a tumor. He has had melanoma twice.

Posted by: bob h on December 28, 2005 at 7:50 AM | PERMALINK

Don't pick on McCain for being a typical American doofus or for pretending to be one. Read this polling and weep. Democrats are scarcely less addled by scientific illiteracy and dingbat religion than Republicans.

Veddy interesting.

The funny thing is, my personal theory is that humans have evolved the trait of believing in religion. Going head to head with religion is like pissing into the wind. There's gonna be blowback.

Posted by: Red State Mike on December 28, 2005 at 9:59 AM | PERMALINK

If we lived in India the debate would be about Intelligent Turtles, and both the Hysterical President and toady Children Bomber would be calling for it to be taught along with evolution.

Posted by: Hostile on December 28, 2005 at 11:03 AM | PERMALINK

No, the stoopid. Let the stoopid decide.

The stoopid body.
The stoopid council.
The stoopid associations that meet at the campus stoopid center.

Stoopid rights are important to stoopids.
Stoopid housing is a critical issue when it's time to move off-campus.
Dean of stoopid life is a plum position.
Stoopid faculty relations are critical to both stoopids and faculty.
Stoopid involvement in stoopid activities is a vibrant sign.

My goal is to always remain a lifelong stoopid.

Posted by: Stoopid on December 28, 2005 at 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

its a cool..

Posted by: anlat.net on December 28, 2005 at 8:08 PM | PERMALINK

Do the Bible Codes count as scientific theory?

Posted by: berlins on December 29, 2005 at 1:53 AM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: FoGjMXEpBP on December 29, 2005 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

70 years ago, liberals KNEW Hitler could be appeased and didn't want to dominate Europe and kill all the Jews.

37 years ago, liberals KNEW American soldiers were raping the countryside of Vietnam and John Kerry was escorting CIA agents into Cambodia on the orders of an as yet unelected President Nixon.

30 years ago liberals KNEW we were about to start another Ice Age due to using fossil fuels.

25 years ago Liberals KNEW we had to appease the Soveit Union and learn to live with them because Communism was inevitable.

8 years ago liberals KNEW Bill Clinton couldn't possibly have been sodomize interns in the Oval Office.

4 years ago liberals KNEW they had to go to war against Saddam Hussein because of his WMD.

Two weeks ago liberals KNEW Iraq couldn't have an election and be a Democray.

Imagine what liberals will KNOW tomorrow!


(((AND YES, IT WAS OFFICIAL DEMOCRAT/LIBERAL POLICY TO SUPPORT AND SIGN THE NEUTRALITY ACT AND LET EUROPE BE SWALLOWED BY HITLER. IT TOOK AN ATTACK ON AMERICAN SOIL FOR FDR TO GET OFF HIS ASS)))

Posted by: Patton on December 29, 2005 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: kNMgQrIwsX on December 30, 2005 at 4:23 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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