Wow, he was a hardass. I didn't know this about him, but it's impressive as hell. I'm so sorry he was such a poor debater and didn't come across well on TV--he sounds like he deserved a better public remembrance than he got. Thanks for trying to make history a little more fair to a man's memory.

And, just to make a point, it really does illustrate that yes, "stress positions" are torture.

I don't really remember Stockdale. But I do recall SNL's parody of Stockdale. SNL presidential debates are always better than the real ones.

Thanks Steve.

comandante agi - I always remember their spoof of the Bush-Dukakis debate. Bush get's asked a question and gives a short talking points answer at which the questioner says "You still have 90 seconds left." Bush says, "Stay the course, a thousand points of light, stay the course." Moderator "Still 60 seconds." Bush, "Umm, a thousand points of light, stay the course, a thousand points of light."

Moderator, "Mr. Dukakis, any rebuttal?" At which point Dukakis kind of shrugs and says "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy."

Stockdale got a bum rap for that debate. He was a true war hero who endured unspeakable torture in N. Vietnam prisons and emerged with his sanity and reputation intact. I happen to have met his family and they are first class. For an inspiring read get the book he co-wrote with his wife entitled "In Love and War" by Jim and Sybil Stockdale. He also gives pertinent insights into the non-event of the so-called Gulf of Tonkin incident. He was there.

None of the torture that James Stockdale endured, as described in this story, involved risk of massive organ failure. Therefore, none of what James Stockdale endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese may be considered torture. They were merely assertive interrogation techniques.

Isn't that right, White House?

Well said, Mr. Benen. Stockdale was a remarkable man, a true warrior philosopher, and a hero in the deepest sense of the word. His memory deserves the respect of all Americans.

None of the torture that James Stockdale endured, as described in this story, involved risk of massive organ failure. Therefore, none of what James Stockdale endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese may be considered torture. They were merely assertive interrogation techniques.

Isn't that right, White House?

Stockdale's role during captivity is featured prominently in a book called "Survivors" by Zalin Grant. He was a "hardass" and much more.

I've seen a long interview with him on TV years after the "Who am I" fiasco and he was still razor sharp with great sense of humor. He had intended it as a rhetorical introduction to describe who he was, but got tripped up in the limited time allowed during the debates and never regained his footing.

An interesting sidenote: Stockdale was a squadron commander flying from the USS Ticonderoga at the time of the Tonkin Gulf Incident. He was in the air, flying over the scene during and after the second attack and saw from the very beginning that there was "no there there".

A funny aside from "Survivors": his full name was James Bond Stockdale. He was also one of the very first (2nd or 3rd??) POW's and after he was shot down his captors announced to the world that they had captured "James Bond"

None of the torture that James Stockdale endured, as described in this story, involved risk of massive organ failure. Therefore, none of what James Stockdale endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese may be considered torture. They were merely assertive interrogation techniques.

Isn't that right, White House?

Thank you, Steve.

I listened to the Vice-Presidential debate on the radio. Didn't see it on TV, and maybe that made a big difference in my perception of the event. I didn't think Stockdale did all that bad. He didn't talk near as much as the other guys, but said something when he had something to say. That's probably not a good strategy in this type of debate, but it's not a bad way to run your life.

What everyone forgets from the debate is that Stockdale gave the only, honest answer I've ever heard on the question of Abortion.

"It's none of the federal government's business. Period."
He then sat down.

Thank you Steve.

James Stockdale is a warriors hero and was a kind man.

"Who am I" just cracks me up. I laughed at his opener. Too bad he was way ahead of his audience. I guess he expected Americans to be actually, educated.

In the interest of accuracy, here's the official quote from the Commission on Debates' transcript:

STOCKDALE: I believe that a woman owns her body and what she does with it is her own business, period.

(APPLAUSE.)

Period.

BRUNO: That's it?

(APPLAUSE.)

STOCKDALE: I don't -- I, too, abhor abortions, but I don't think they should be made illegal, and I don't -- and I don't think it's a political issue. I think it's a privacy issue.

(APPLAUSE.)

He was even more of a libertarian on the issue than I recalled.

You guys beat me to it, his abortion response was the one I've copied ever since he said it. Perot introduced him as a true American hero, he was correct.

The truly great die at a time tinged with irony, and Stockdale's death in 2005 was certainly ironic, given that the current administration has backed subtle torture after everything he endured in our name. It is as if God granted him one last chance to be the example and give pause. Let us turn a new page.

The SNL thing was just funny. But, the way the press treated that true war hero was pathetic. They really showed their colors and they certainly weren't being Liberal.

I once met Admiral Stockdale when I was assigned to an exercise at the Naval War College in Rhode Island. He struck me as a gentleman, and kind to subordinates, even a lowly WM NCO.

He had a slightly odd stance. I was later told that he couldn't comfortably lower his arms fully to his sides, a result of certain tortures he had undergone.

He was a great hero, and utterly undeserving of the ridicule he received.

One of the more evil aspects of our media is how it can take a single episode of a person's life, sometimes a single quote, and, without the slightest compunction, define him or her forever by it.

It's pretty despicable.

One person so treated, in my opinion, was Gary Condit. The media bashed this WHOLLY INNOCENT PERSON as if he was a certain murderer. Connie Chung was treated as a hero because she wouldn't let him "get away with" claiming innocence, and badgered him unconscionably.

And please don't say that Condit "deserved" his treatment because he was in other respects an unsavory character, sleeping around and being generally disagreeable. OK?

The media should be ashamed of itself, should have apologized profusely to him, but isn't and wouldn't.

Always remember: these are shameless people.

Thanks, Steve. I never would have known this, and I'm very glad that I do now.

Back when Dennis Miller was actually funny and had something interesting to say, he did a rant on Adm. Stockdale and the debates.

he described it thusly:

"Now I know (Stockdale's name has) become a buzzword in this culture for doddering old man, but let's look at the record, folks. The guy was the first guy in and the last guy out of Vietnam, a war that many Americans, including our present President, did not want to dirty their hands with.

The reason he had to turn his hearing aid on at that debate is because those f***ing animals knocked his eardrums out when he wouldn't spill his guts. He teaches philosophy at Stanford University, he's a brilliant, sensitive, courageous man. And yet he committed the one unpardonable sin in our culture: he was bad on television.

"Somewhere out there Paddy Chayefsky must be laughing his ass off. ..."

It was a very powerful lesson, and really got me thinking. I was 18 at the time, but it is something I still remember to this day.

art hackett,

do you have a link to the entire debate transcript? I would love to read it.

I have never understood the derision thrown at Adm. Stockdale for opening his debate with "Who am I, why am I here?" That is a perfectly intelligent way to begin with an audience that knows little about you.

The ignorant response to that question is a continuing national embarassment. Using the words 'laughing stock' in Stockdale's obituary is shameful. The reporter who wrote the obit should have used his opportunity to apologize to a great man.

I, too, had the privilege of meeting Admiral and Mrs. Stockdale at a reception. What incredibly classy people. I was not a Perot supporter, but his choice of Jim Stockdale was a good one.

Steve Benen,

I couldn't agree with you more. The story of James Stockdale is a remarkable and he is an extraordinary individual.

I will always remember Stockdale for bombing little children to death. Americans' bloodlust is so great, we make heroes from mass murderers.

The Vietnamese should not have tortured him, just as we should not have tortured them.

I have nothing to add, except that my hat is off to this extraordinary man. America is diminished for his loss.

He sounds like someone who had the misfortune to stand on a presidential ticket in a time when the evil of torture and the necessity of resisting it were not resonant issues in American political life, and then the further misfortune of living long enough to see them become resonant in the worst possible way.

Thank you Steve. As a distant relative of James Stockdale I appreciate you pointing out some of the more important parts of his life that were not centered around the one vice presidential debate everyone remembers.

Thanks Steve. You do us all great service by reminding of how strong and courageous humans can be. It makes one think Epictetus should be required reading for us all.

I was moved by Stockdale's story, too. The wonder is that he was so unprepared when Perot called on him.

Thank you Steve.

The Admiral was an exceptional man.

The Neanderthals who ran and probably still run the Citadel are beneath contempt.

This reminds me of a proposal I had made during the Vietnam War to reduce the incentives for torturing our POWs. I wanted LBJ to get on national television and issue an order, as Commander in Chief, that all captives MUST publicly "confess" to anything they are asked to, thus rendering the "confessions" worthless in advance and making torture to get them pointless.

The POW story you relate reflects bravery and principle. But it was rather pointless self abuse. As I recall,no one gave the slightest credibility to the tapes of prisoners "confessing." It was a pointless exercise in crude propaganda that reflected badly on the N. Vietnamese gov't, not on the POWs involved.

Gee, maybe you should have asked LBJ to stop bombing civilians and destroying villages with the people still in them. Perhaps LBJ should have issued an order stopping torture of Viet Cong, too. When I was a child I saw US soldiers torture Viet Cong on TV with the cloth over face while water was poured over the victim's head treatment. Too bad our children are unable to see video of Iraqis being tortured, it would make them appreciate the sacrifices men like Stockton made to keep war honorable.

no one gave the slightest credibility to the tapes of prisoners "confessing."

I don't think you understand the propaganda purpose of such tapes; it is not to be credible confessions, it is to demonstrate the totality of control exercised by the totalitarian regime -- even over the agents of its opposition -- and the futility of resistance. It is a tool to encourage conforming behavior from those already within the power of the totalitarian regime and those that may come in contact with it. It is not directly, primarily, an attempt to control the beliefs of those who see it as far as the overt subject matter, but to control behavior (and, when seen by those completely outside the power of the regime, to inspire fear.)

I frequently wish our current leaders had the compunction and strength of purpose to beat themselves over the head.

I met Stockdale on a number of occaisions and wrote this memory of him.

http://functionalambivalent.typepad.com/blog/2005/07/admirable_stock.html

He was truly a remarkable and generous human being. You're right: He shouldn't just be remembered for the Perot campaign. He was an American hero.

The piece of the puzzle that is often missing is his wife Sybil. She was as remarkable and as strong as he was. As he held together the small community of POWs, she held together the community of POW families.

Adm. Stockdale received the Medal of Honor for his conduct while a POW in Vietnam.

As for Hostile's observations -- all valid at some level, but going to a larger point: In Vietnam then and Iraq now, we have a war in which the "principle" being fought for is unworthy of the men and women who are fighting it.

Just FYI on the veep debate: Stockdale was only informed 48 hours in advance (by Perot, or maybe Ed Rollins) that he would be appearing in that debate. Perot, endlessly vain, really had a distaste for campaigning. He seemed to believe that he merely had to bestow himself upon the American people, so self-evident was it that he was the right man for the job.

Of course Stockdale was the real deal, and it's a terrible statement about our country that someone as wise and decent as him probably couldn't get elected dog catcher here.

"He didn't talk near as much as the other guys, but said something when he had something to say."

Yep, that's about the size of it. I watched the debate and you could tell he was an intelligent and forthright man, no bullshit about him. Then the news broadcasts play the "who am"/"out of ammo" clips (and, be fair, those did stand out, just not in a bad way) and the public decides he must be some kind of tard. Because that's all most of the puiblic knew about the debate and therefore about him. That's not the media's fault -- people could have read profiles of Stockdale in the newspaper. But they were too lazy.

The public is made up of people who don't know much but want to feel like they do. They complain about TV dominating campaigns and about a lack of substance, but the public is the reason for both problems.

"I don't think you understand the propaganda purpose of such tapes; it is not to be credible confessions, it is to demonstrate the totality of control..." etc.

Which make one wonder if the release of the Abu Ghraib photos really was a mistake.

There was a request for the URL of the debate transcript:

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans92d.html

I remember that debate. Stockdale debated like a normal person would - thinking about his answers, stumbling on his words, taking too much time or not enough. How dare he not have canned 90 second sound bites for every issue!

I don't think you understand the propaganda purpose of such tapes; it is not to be credible confessions, it is to demonstrate the totality of control exercised by the totalitarian regime -- even over the agents of its opposition -- and the futility of resistance.

Not, cmdicely, in the case of North Vietnamese torture of American POWs. They did in fact want to use these confessions to convince left-leaning Americans and Europeans that America was committing war crimes in Vietnam and that the very soldiers fighting the war had come to view it as unjust. They had a mixed record of understanding what type of propaganda would be effective with Western audiences - sometimes they were fairly savvy, other times they miscalculated drastically. As for how they ended up in the futile and nonsensical position of torturing US soldiers to extract "sincere" confessions... that's a subject which is so complicated that probably nobody, given the continued Vietnamese wall of silence on the issue, will ever be able to figure it out. A combination of distance between the political leadership demanding such "confessions" and the generally third-rate, violent prison personnel responsible for delivering them; the intensely dogmatic mentality of the Vietnamese Communist leadership, and of Confucian-influenced Vietnamese culture generally; increasing desire for revenge as US bombing took an increasing toll; and other factors unknown or barely guessable.

It is notable that a large percentage of US POWs came to believe that the US had no business being in Vietnam, though they also generally held by the code of not expressing such sentiments publicly or allowing them to be used by the Vietnamese for propaganda. A lot of rock-ribbed conservative pilots came out of that war feeling it had a been a stupid waste of American lives on what was fundamentally a local civil war - though they would never protest publicly, which they viewed as disloyal.

Another note about Stockdale: he was flying his A4 over the Gulf of Tonkin on the night of the supposed second "attack" on the USS Maddox - the one which served as the pretext for the Tonkin Gulf Resolution and of US intervention in the war, but which never actually took place. And he had the honesty to state from the beginning that he never saw any evidence of a Vietnamese attack - just US warships blazing away in the night. I believe his rather memorable words were: "Nothing but black water and American firepower."

I read about Stockdale in the business book "Good to Great" and I was surprised by his story and his courage. I am glad that you pointed this out.

"A lot of rock-ribbed conservative pilots came out of that war feeling it had a been a stupid waste of American lives on what was fundamentally a local civil war - though they would never protest publicly, which they viewed as disloyal.
Posted by: brooksfoe on December 29, 2005 at 2:52 PM |"
I wonder what an honest poll of those serving in Iraq would show?
There are probably some young Stockdales out there right now. One of the many horrors of this war is that we put people of great honor in the position of having to behave dishonorably. It would be great if we could always be worthy of those who are serving us.

I had the opportunity to meet Admiral Stockdale several years ago, and despite his obvious failing health, he had such an incredible spark of spirit and character that was apparent in just being around him.

If we are still allowed to have heroes, Admiral Stockdale was mine. I can only hope to be half the man he was.

One of the many horrors of this war is that we put people of great honor in the position of having to behave dishonorably.

If there were any honorable people serving the US military in Iraq, they would arrest their commanders for crimes against humanity and refuse to follow orders. I have not heard of any such honorable men and women.

I sure hope at least that he admitted that he was killing women and children, by indiscriminantly slaying village after village in Vietnam.

Nixon's secretary of defense Marvin Laird wrote in Foreign Affairs this month that we killed over 3 million people in Vietnam. Finally, the government admits that atrocity, thank goodness.

"It was a pointless exercise in crude propaganda that reflected badly on the N. Vietnamese gov't, not on the POWs involved."

You really don't understand.

Stockdale was concerned with his own pride. McCain could have been released early because his father was CinCPAC. He chose to follow the code of honor and refused repatriation ahead of others even though he was not sure he would survive.

In the debate, Stockdale was having hearing aid problems which caused him to be surprised when he was called upon.

The weenies here who are accusing him of war crimes don't deserve to sweep the floor after he has passed by.

I must have missed the survey of ex-POWs who thought Vietnam was "a stupid waste of American lives." I know a number of them who blamed Johnson for allowing the troops to be killed while not allowing them to fight without micro-management.

That's why a certain part of the anatomy is still referred to as a "Johnson" in the US military.

The reason that Stockdale was shot down is in another of Zalin Grant's books, "Over the Beach". He flew many more missions than he was obliged to fly; he'd come on the deck in a flight suit and look over the planes, pick a load he liked and tell the pilot to go below, then fly that mission. Other pilots talking about him often use the phrase "bravest of the brave". Too bad he didn't look good on television.

I am reminded of Col Flag of the MASH series.

Not to take anything away from McCain, who endured horrible torture at the hands of the N. Vietnamese and refused to leave his men behind, but my impression has always been that while McCain was the most famous name among the POWs, Stockdale and Orson Swindle (who was also involved in Perot's campaign) were the real leaders. And I agree that it's a shame that most of us will only remember Stockdale from the debate. But man, did he come across poorly!

The article puts "confessed" in quote marks, as it should, since coerced confessions must be suspect.

But the North Vietnamese had good reason to try to get our pilots to confess to bombing schools. My uncle, a fighter pilot who flew many missions over Nort Vietnam, told me that he did deliberately target schools. He wanted to break the enemy's will to fight.

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