The Washington Monthly

December 30, 2005

OFF PACE....It was pretty embarrassing a month ago when Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Peter Pace publicly, and awkwardly, contradicted Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld over whether American troops have a responsibility to intervene if they witness torture by Iraqi authorities. Indeed, the two were standing side by side at a Pentagon press briefing when they couldn't agree on the non-trivial issue of preventing torture.

Yesterday, however, Gen. Pace insisted that it was all a big misunderstanding. When he and Rumsfeld took conflicting positions, Pace said yesterday, they were actually saying the same thing.

When General Pace was asked again on Thursday by reporters in Bahrain about the exchange, he said for the first time that he and Mr. Rumsfeld had not really disagreed at all. General Pace said he was talking about the obligations of American soldiers in a war zone like Iraq or Afghanistan; Mr. Rumsfeld, he said, was talking about the obligations of Americans in a nonhostile setting like, say, Tokyo.

"When I discussed it with him after the fact, it seemed to me he was talking about global conditions, and I knew that I was talking specifically about conditions in Iraq," General Pace said in an interview later aboard his plane as he continued a weeklong troop visit in the Middle East.

Gen. Pace is usually a pretty credible guy, but his explanation is clearly wrong.

During the Nov. 29 press briefing, UPI's Pam Hess asked specifically about torture by Iraqi authorities. Rumsfeld said, "[O]bviously, the United States does not have a responsibility" beyond voicing disapproval. Pace disagreed, saying, "It is the absolute responsibility of every U.S. service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene, to stop it." Rumsfeld hoped to clarify the disagreement, noting to Pace, "I don't think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it; it's to report it." But Pace stood his ground, arguing, "If they are physically present when inhumane treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it."

Yesterday's unpersuasive spin notwithstanding, it's not at all comforting that the Defense Secretary and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can't quite get together on how the U.S. military will respond to torture by Iraqi officials. And the fact that they're still trying -- and failing -- to explain the disagreement a month later is hardly reassuring.

—Steve Benen 9:40 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (31)

Comments

To borrow a phrase from Bush, you're either with the torturers or you're against them.

The U.S., sadly, is with them. So much for moral clarity....

Posted by: Stefan on December 30, 2005 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

It all depends on what the definition of "Iraq" is.

Posted by: Tbrosz watch on December 30, 2005 at 9:57 AM | PERMALINK

All right, you self-proclaimed geniuses...

Tell me how many "italic" tags have YOU brought to Iraq? "Bolding"? Or A Hrefs?

Liberulz talk a good talk, but they can't format it.

Posted by: tbrosz on December 30, 2005 at 10:00 AM | PERMALINK

This flip-flop is even less reassuring on the heals of the changes to the emergency chain of command, which promotes Bush's civilian yes-men over the professional military.

On the heel's of yesterday's discussion of Admiral Stockdale's courage and character, it's a pity that Pace, who showed much brass in contradicting Rumsfeld, appears to be bowing to the considerable pressure this Administration must be putting on him.

Posted by: Gregory on December 30, 2005 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Only by the standard of Meyers is Peter Pace a pretty credible guy. Anyone who saw his shillish appearances on television before, during and after the invasion of Iraq (for example, on PBS News Hour) could only be left with the impression that he had sold his honesty and integrity for the opportunity of advancement to Marine chief and ultimately the Chairmanship of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

He was very much not the straight-shooter for which even the highest officiered Marines are well known for. I gathered that other former Marine generals thought of him as an embarrassment to their view of truly patriotic service.

Posted by: Ben Brackley on December 30, 2005 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Steven: ....the fact that they're still trying -- and failing -- to explain the disagreement a month later is hardly reassuring

They will never "explain" the disagreement away because it was a true disagreement. Rumsfeld was wrong and the general is now trying to cover for him. It is not suprising that a guy who, along with Cheney, has added torture as a policy of this country would not jump at the chance to stop it when done by an ally. However, it's wrong for Iraq and wrong for us. Trying to work out the shades of gray when you think it is ok "sometimes" is what is causing Rumsfeld his problem. Shades of gray are not his strong suit. Someone, like the president for example, should solve Rummy's problem with ambiguity by letting him and everone know that is wrong all of the time. That way when men who follow the law, like General Pace, speak they would not have problems contradicting their boss.

Posted by: patrick on December 30, 2005 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, and that's the fake tbrosz. The genuine article prefers to kvetch about "the Left."

Posted by: Gregory on December 30, 2005 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

While we're on the subject, here, from Daily Kos via Tom Tomorrow, is a bit about how the Bush regime supports torture worldwide:

Last year the US gave half a billion dollars in aid to Uzbekistan, about a quarter of it military aid. Bush and Powell repeatedly hail Karimov as a friend and ally. Yet this regime has at least seven thousand prisoners of conscience; it is a one party state without freedom of speech, without freedom of media, without freedom of movement, without freedom of assembly, without freedom of religion. It practices, systematically, the most hideous tortures on thousands. Most of the population live in conditions precisely analogous with medieval serfdom.

Uzbekistan’s geo-strategic position is crucial. It has half the population of the whole of Central Asia. It alone borders all the other states in a region which is important to future Western oil and gas supplies. It is the regional military power. That is why the US is here, and here to stay. Contractors at the US military bases are extending the design life of the buildings from ten to twenty five years.

Democracy and human rights are, despite their protestations to the contrary, in practice a long way down the US agenda here. Aid this year will be slightly less, but there is no intention to introduce any meaningful conditionality. Nobody can believe this level of aid – more than US aid to all of West Africa – is related to comparative developmental need as opposed to political support for Karimov. While the US makes token and low-level references to human rights to appease domestic opinion, they view Karimov’s vicious regime as a bastion against fundamentalism. He – and they – are in fact creating fundamentalism. When the US gives this much support to a regime that tortures people to death for having a beard or praying five times a day, is it any surprise that Muslims come to hate the West?
. . .
The torture record of the Uzbek security services could hardly be more widely known. Plainly there are, at the very least, reasonable grounds for believing the material is obtained under torture. There is helpful guidance at Article 3 of the UN Convention;
“The competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the state concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.” While this article forbids extradition or deportation to Uzbekistan, it is the right test for the present question also.

On the usefulness of the material obtained, this is irrelevant. Article 2 of the Convention, to which we are a party, could not be plainer:

“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”

Nonetheless, I repeat that this material is useless – we are selling our souls for dross. It is in fact positively harmful. It is designed to give the message the Uzbeks want the West to hear. It exaggerates the role, size, organisation and activity of the IMU and its links with Al Qaida. The aim is to convince the West that the Uzbeks are a vital cog against a common foe, that they should keep the assistance, especially military assistance, coming, and that they should mute the international criticism on human rights and economic reform.

Here’s what that partnership looks like in action :

At the Khuderbegainov trial I met an old man from Andizhan. Two of his children had been tortured in front of him until he signed a confession on the family’s links with Bin Laden. Tears were streaming down his face. I have no doubt they had as much connection with Bin Laden as I do. This is the standard of the Uzbek intelligence services.

http://thismodernworld.com/2578

Posted by: Stefan on December 30, 2005 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

We're surely aping Mengele in our treatment of Iraqis. I'm waiting for the day we discover prisoners are part of experiments testing their tolerance of various chemicals, radiation and temperature extremes. Crazy? Look and listen to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Gonzalez, Bolton, Hadley, Cambone and Wolfowitz. I say plausible.

Posted by: steve duncan on December 30, 2005 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

Pace changed his mind because he has, in fact, been tortured.

Posted by: Ara Rubyan on December 30, 2005 at 10:19 AM | PERMALINK

The real question is why Pace hasn't been abruptly retired yet for the public contradiction. If that had happened two years ago, Pace would have been out on his ass before the sun set.

Would seem to indicate the WH has decided that it can't steamroll the Brass as easily. Something has changed.

This incident plus Murtha's recent statements indicates to me that the Brass are more sick of Bush/Rumsfeld than we can imagine--and have taken matters into their own hands.

Very conceivable that the military is sitting on some huge scandals about Bush--and has told Bush that he will cooperate with the Pentagon or else.

Posted by: Tim B. on December 30, 2005 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

I think it is a gray area on intervening with the authorities of another country if they are abusing prisoners . Unless it is a life and death situation our soldiers should report it to the proper authorities.

As far as our own military is concerned. A soldier is obligated if at all possible to stop abusive or illegal treatment and report it as soon as possible.

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Posted by: suzanne on December 30, 2005 at 10:25 AM | PERMALINK

Sounds like Pace got brought into the SecDef's office and yelled at. Not at all a good thing. Pace is a good guy, wants to do the right things, but in the end will soldier up and follow orders. Maybe he got "ordered" to explain how everyone's really happy at the top.

Posted by: J. on December 30, 2005 at 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

"It wasn't my fault! I was only following orders!"

Nice to see that America is resurrecting the discredited Nuremberg defense....

Posted by: Stefan on December 30, 2005 at 10:34 AM | PERMALINK

I think its once again a slap at Rumsfeld by Pace. Pace is telling what he knows is an outright lie, and has made the lie so ridiculous that he knows it can't be believed. In so doing, Pace makes Rumsfeld look stupid and reasserts his view that American soldiers must intervene to prevent torture.

Pace is saying that he understood the question correctly, and that Rumsfeld misunderstood it, and that it is Rumsfeld's misunderstanding that led to the different answers. He is also making it very difficult for Rumsfeld or anyone else to say that the US Army does not have a duty to prevent torture in the future.

Posted by: Dismayed Liberal on December 30, 2005 at 10:40 AM | PERMALINK

Has any senior military officer (like 2 stars or above) resigned in protest in the past 5 years or are they all careerists and yes men/women?

Posted by: Robert on December 30, 2005 at 10:54 AM | PERMALINK

In re Iraq, the original question was idiotic, because it was (willfully?) uninformed.

Under the law, as an occupying power, the USA is directly responsible for 'torture by Iraqi authorities.'

There is no 'out' for our generals, cabinet officials or President.

Posted by: Half on December 30, 2005 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

it is a gray area on intervening with the authorities of another country

This isn't simply "another country" -- this is Iraq.

Phony sovereignty ceremonies and illegal elections notwithstanding, the USA is the legally responsible party for actions of the supposed 'Iraq government' as long as we continue to be the militarily occupying power there. International law is stubborn on this point.

Posted by: Half on December 30, 2005 at 11:19 AM | PERMALINK

Ah,Rumsfeld, his incompetence is limitless. He not only got this point wrong, he was corrected in no uncertain terms as I watched that press conference. But it seems to make little difference to GWB. To have a SecDef this bad strategically,tactically,ecumenically shows how bereft of management skills GWB really is. I know he has a Harvard MBA, but somebody had to graduate in the bottom of the class. Another "atta boy" from the boss.
Unlike the real business world where one "oh,shit" wipes out one hundred "atta boys",this administration takes the opposite approach.

Posted by: TJM on December 30, 2005 at 11:28 AM | PERMALINK

Perhaps it was quietly explained to Pace, that, yes, he could retire and perfect his golf game, but he would have to play public links only. Rumdumb has a long reach.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on December 30, 2005 at 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

I bet Rummy has a list of rules on the wall in his office. I am sure you have seen some version of them.

Rummy's Rules

1. Rummy is always right.
2. If Rummy is wrong, see rule 1.

Pace is just following the rules man.

Posted by: j swift on December 30, 2005 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

they dont mislead.....you misfollowed

Posted by: thisspaceavailable on December 30, 2005 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

Well, it's pretty clear that Rumsfield just doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground regarding the responsibilities of the military.

I was just happy to have someone contradict his bullshit in public

Posted by: TWAndrews on December 30, 2005 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

Well, it's pretty clear that Rumsfield just doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground regarding the responsibilities of the military.

I think the evidence suggests that the words after "ground" are superfluous.

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Posted by: mp3 on December 30, 2005 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

"Mr. Rumsfeld, he said, was talking about the obligations of Americans in a nonhostile setting like, say, Tokyo."

Great, so U.S. agents can sit around and watch the torture show in Cairo. But they cannot sell tickets.

Is that the correct interpretation?

Posted by: Matt on December 30, 2005 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

Oy,

Good catch Matt...I wasn't thinking about sitting outside/inside the torture room after rendition.

Posted by: Dismayed Liberal on December 30, 2005 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINK

But at least it seems that Pace's interpretation appears to have prevailed. That is something.

Posted by: Nancy Irving on December 30, 2005 at 9:34 PM | PERMALINK

Great, so U.S. agents can sit around and watch the torture show in Cairo. But they cannot sell tickets.

Is that the correct interpretation?

Posted by: Matt

Another stupid lefty speaks out! The interpretation is if you see it happen in another country where the US has no jurisdiction then you report it to the appropriate authorities. If you see it happen in an area under US control then if possible you stop the abuse and report it. Pretty simple except maybe for you lefties that are only looking to critisize.

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