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Tilting at Windmills

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January 11, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

BOMBING AL-JAZEERA....Did George Bush seriously suggest that coalition forces should bomb al-Jazeera headquarters because he was unhappy over their coverage of the siege of Fallujah in 2004? Christopher Hitchens describes just how loony the thought is:

The state of Qatar, which though a Wahabbi kingdom has a free press and allows women to run and to vote in elections....It has also been the host of United States Central Command....It is the site each year of a highly interesting and useful conference, co-sponsored by the Saban Center at the Brookings Institution....Its emir has been a positive help and supporter to many democrats in the region. Bombing or blowing up the Al Jazeera office would involve hitting the downtown section of Doha, the capital city of a friendly power. It's difficult to think of any policy that would have been more calamitous.

OK, agreed. But did Bush suggest it? The two guys who leaked the contents of the incriminating memo are currently on trial in Britain, and the New York Times buries the following confirmation in its report:

Peter Kilfoyle, a legislator from Mr. Blair's Labor Party, said he...had tried to publicize the document in the United States in 2004.

Mr. Kilfoyle said in a telephone interview that he and [Tony] Clarke had hoped to influence the 2004 presidential election by sharing information from the document with John Latham, 71, a British citizen with connections to the Democratic Party.

The Guardian has more details on the Kilfoyle/Latham connection, and it all sounds pretty lame to me. Are these guys seriously saying that they couldn't figure out any way at all to safely get a photocopy of this document to an American newspaper? Why? Were they afraid no one would be interested? Sheesh.

Kevin Drum 1:11 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (107)

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Comments

The question is -- would Americans have instead supported bombing Al Jazeera?

Siiiigghhhhh ....

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 11, 2006 at 1:18 PM | PERMALINK

That Bush may have "suggested" something that he didn't ultimately decide to do is important because....ummmm....why....?

Posted by: Chris Gabel on January 11, 2006 at 1:18 PM | PERMALINK

CLICK THE LINK. ALWAYS CLICK THE LINK. In the link it says

"The two MPs decided in October 2004 to reveal the key information in the transcript to John Latham, a Democrat supporter living in San Diego, California. They hoped to influence the impending 2004 US election, Mr Kilfoyle said."

So two Kerry thumping British Liberal Democrats are the only biased source which confirms this and we're supposed to believe them? *Snicker*

Posted by: Al on January 11, 2006 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

It's difficult to think of any policy that would have been more calamitous.

And this means Bush' wouldn't suggest it ... why?

Hitchens isn't arguing the point, he's changing the subject (again).
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

Is it really such a short step from wanting to be dictator, and in fact declaring yourself king, to openly talking about bombing people who don't agree with you?

Shrub is bonkers - remember, he believes that God chose him to be President - so yes, I believe it.

Posted by: craigie on January 11, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

So two Kerry thumping British Liberal Democrats are the only biased source ...

Ad hominem.

Got anything else?

Didn't think so.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:24 PM | PERMALINK

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
-W

Posted by: Gore/Obama '08 on January 11, 2006 at 1:26 PM | PERMALINK

"Are these guys seriously saying that they couldn't figure out any way at all to safely get a photocopy of this document to an American newspaper? Why? Were they afraid no one would be interested? Sheesh."

Sounds like to me they should have forwarded the material to Dan Rather... he was also trying to influence the 2004 election.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on January 11, 2006 at 1:27 PM | PERMALINK

That Bush may have "suggested" something that he didn't ultimately decide to do is important because....ummmm....why....?

Bush thinking about having a turkey sandwich for lunch and deciding to go with sushi = not important.

Bush thinking for even one second about bombing a news outlet to "punish" them for coverage = evidence of a shocking level of insanity, and thus pretty fucking important.

Let us know if we can help with anything else.

Posted by: shortstop on January 11, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

Good one Freedom Fighter.

Posted by: Al on January 11, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

Had Kilfoyle contacted the New York Times, the Times would have called the White House for comment. The White House would tell the Times that revealing the information would cause untold damage to national security, and the Times would sit on the information for a year. For all we know, Kilfoyle might have tried to get the US press interested.

On the other hand, telling the Democrats (especially after Kerry wrapped things up) would result in similar lameness, since Kerry was eager to proclaim that he would be even more aggressive at killing "terrorists" than George Bush, and some Dems seemed to think that Bush would win more votes, not fewer, if the story were known, given the demonization of al-Jazeera in the US.

Posted by: Joe Buck on January 11, 2006 at 1:31 PM | PERMALINK

Um, Al: who says were supposed to believe them? Kevin wrote a whole post suggesting we're not to believe them.

You fall in line behind biased sources all the time, just ones that agree with bias. Well, not you - by you I mean the real Al who is deceased, not the creepy psychopathic impersonator who posts here.

But I for one will break ranks and boldly speculate that this story is true, particularly after reading this:

Britain's attorney general has warned media they will be breaking the law if they give details of the document.

Parliament member Peter Kilfoyle said Tuesday that he had been briefed on its contents by Anthony Clarke, the lawmaker who employed O'Connor, after Clarke received a copy.

"He made me aware of the contents," Kilfoyle said. "There was a discussion about bombing Al Jazeera headquarters in Qatar and also about the attack on [the Iraqi city of] Fallouja."

"My understanding is that Blair and [former U.S. Secretary of State] Colin Powell were against the bombing of Al Jazeera," said Kilfoyle, who opposed Britain's role in invading Iraq.

The irony is that had Bush actually bombed Al-Jazeera, trolls here and everywhere would have cheered its destruction as necessary and good, and defended the decision to the last.

Just more proof that critical thinking and good judgment are impaired by a lack of experience kissing girls. My theory: the kissing produces hormones which balance brain chemicals. A lack of female contact will lead to excessive snickering, a stern father complex, and just plain bad thinking.

Posted by: trex on January 11, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

Al, the story is confirmed because Britain is prosecuting these guys under the Official Secrets Act. Since there's no case unless real secrets are revealed, that's a rock-solid confirmation that the story is accurate.

If the story were false in any way, they'd be charged with libel instead.

Posted by: Joe Buck on January 11, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

If you guys expect to get traction with arguments and info such as this you really got to work on your timing!!

This story is at least a year old. Anything over 2 months is ancient history.

News is supposed to be new.

Posted by: wayne on January 11, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

That Bush may have "suggested" something that he didn't ultimately decide to do is important because....ummmm....why....?

If an idea is stupid enough it doesn't matter if you ultimately decided against it. Nixon had to be talked out of a coup and just for that his name will be forever blackened in the eyes of history.

In this case it's also telling. Sane presidents talk about bombing factories, military installations, reactors, things of importance. This guy is getting bad PR and he wants to drop bombs on a news outlet. PR is everything to this guy. When we suffer real setbacks he responds with PR offensives. This would be a new type of PR offensive but totally in character.

So two Kerry thumping British Liberal Democrats are the only biased source which confirms this and we're supposed to believe them?

Obviously they were Bush supporters until they heard him suggest dropping bombs on a news station. Wouldn't that make you support his opponent if you heard it first hand? If not then why not?

Posted by: MillionthMonkey on January 11, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

Good one Freedom Fighter. Posted by: Al

Is it possible that "Dan Rather" will supplant "Bill Clinton's Penis" as the wingnuts' answer for everything?

And has anyone taken up the Alabama Guardsmen's challenge (and $3500 reward) to step forward and say they remember Bush doing his duty in Alabama?

Magic 8-Ball sez: 'Signs Point to Yes' and 'My Sources Say No,' respectively.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

Um, Al, Kilfoyle is a former Labour defence minister, and Clarke is a former Labour MP. The Lib Dems have nothing to do with this.

Kevin: presumably there was other stuff in the minutes that Kilfoyle didn't want to reveal, either for political or security reasons.

Posted by: Ginger Yellow on January 11, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

Sounds like to me they should have forwarded the material to Dan Rather... he was also trying to influence the 2004 election.

I think they should have talked to Lucy Ramirez. She's an expert at getting documents into the hands of the US media in order to influence Presidential election.

Posted by: Al on January 11, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

Joe Buck

You don't understand. Even what Dan Rather was saying was true. So Al's contention is true or not, it would have met the same fate, thanks to the First Holy Order of the Bushists.

Posted by: lib on January 11, 2006 at 1:36 PM | PERMALINK

The irony is that had Bush actually bombed Al-Jazeera ...

Do you mean "somewhere other than Iraq and Afghanistan"?
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:37 PM | PERMALINK

The Lib Dems have nothing to do with this.

How can you be so sure? Perhaps Charles Kennedy was involved while he was drunk, and now just has no recollection of it.

Posted by: Al on January 11, 2006 at 1:37 PM | PERMALINK

Christopher Hitchens describes just how loony the thought is

That juxtaposition just made me chuckle.

Posted by: ogmb on January 11, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

So Al's contention is true or not, it would have met the same fate, thanks to the First Holy Order of the Bushists.

As in, "we can pretend we're back in Junior High and just shout them down with fake laughter"?

Yeah, they do that a lot.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Excellent post, MillionthMonkey. Blows my little turkey sandwich/sushi contribution out of the water.

Funny thing, I also thought of Nixon and his longing look at calling in the troops. That story will never be forgotten, and for good reason.

Posted by: shortstop on January 11, 2006 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

Christopher Hitchens describes just how loony the thought is

Perhaps Hitchens can also explain what a dumb idea it would be to plunge a Persian Gulf state into a sectarian civil war and play into the hands of al Qaeda? Then we can get Kevin to deny there's an occupation going on in Iraq!
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis on January 11, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

Also, I'm sure the two Britons are being prosecuted for the super-secret Squab Pie recipe contained in the document they leaked.

If it ever got out, Britain would lose control over production of one of their favorite dishes, unbalancing cuisine throughout the middle east. If terrorists ever get a hold of the recipe they could be making squab pies in back alleys of Islamabad, on mobile biolab trailers bouncing along the dusty plains of Afghanistan -- and even right under our noses here in the good 'ol U.S. of A!

I'll bet the child I love the least that John Kerry has sampled squab pie....

Posted by: trex on January 11, 2006 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK

The question is -- would Americans have instead supported bombing.....

The answer is yes.

Posted by: WhoSays on January 11, 2006 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK
When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it.

Given this sentiment, what action do you propose should be taken against an administration that does not properly equip American soliders, which gets them killed?

Posted by: SavageView on January 11, 2006 at 1:46 PM | PERMALINK

WhoSays: The answer is yes.

Yep, Walter E. Wallis shows up right on time, fresh out of his morning barstool-warming session with Mike K, to demonstrate why one man, one vote has its downside. Or maybe we're just defining "man" loosely here.

Posted by: shortstop on January 11, 2006 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Given this sentiment, what action do you propose should be taken against an administration that does not properly equip American soliders, which gets them killed?

When do we bomb the idiots who got our soldiers killed while playing into the hands of al Qaeda?

When do we bomb the idiots who let al Qaeda kill thousands in America?

Is this going to be on C-SPAN, or is there a prime-time showing?
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

walter, leave your parents' basement every now and again, ok? if we bombed al jazeera, even more of our servicemen would be attacked.

Posted by: elfranko on January 11, 2006 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

"I think they should have talked to Lucy Ramirez. She's an expert at getting documents into the hands of the US media in order to influence Presidential election."

I think the most telling thing about this whole blog entry is that liberals implicitly approve of foreign meddling in American presidential elections.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on January 11, 2006 at 1:52 PM | PERMALINK
Ad hominem.

Got anything else?

Arguing source bias as against credibility of statements (such as their statements about the provenance of the memo) isn't ad hominem fallacy; of course, it doesn't defeat any credibility the memo has standing alone, but it is a valid grounds for suspicion of statements made by those providing the evidence (or second hand statements by those who source is those providing it) that are not independently supported by other evidence.

Posted by: cmdicely on January 11, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

I think the most telling thing about this whole blog entry is that liberals implicitly approve of foreign meddling in American presidential elections.

Well, then you'd be wrong, because no one here is even remotely suggesting that. When you get to high school you might be able to sign up for a class that will assist you in developing your critical thinking skills.

Posted by: trex on January 11, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

And has anyone taken up the Alabama Guardsmen's challenge (and $3500 reward) to step forward and say they remember Bush doing his duty in Alabama?

Has anyone ever asked Bush to give us three or four names of his buddies in his unit in Alabama? Surely he should be able to do that, shouldn't he?

Posted by: Stefan on January 11, 2006 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

Arguing source bias as against credibility of statements (such as their statements about the provenance of the memo) isn't ad hominem fallacy

Yes, it is. The "attacking the bias" fallacy is a subset of ad hominem for the simple reason that it avoids the subject by changing the subject to the person.

Bias is not the same thing as credibility, btw.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK
Al, the story is confirmed because Britain is prosecuting these guys under the Official Secrets Act. Since there's no case unless real secrets are revealed, that's a rock-solid confirmation that the story is accurate.

If the story were false in any way, they'd be charged with libel instead.

That's not entirely true; their could be a real secret revealed or compromised along with false information, which would still allow prosecution under the Official Secrets Act even if the story wasn't completely accurate. Indeed, the story could be almost entirely false, but if it contained any information covered by the act, a prosecution could be made.

Posted by: cmdicely on January 11, 2006 at 1:59 PM | PERMALINK

When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it.

Funny, I don't recall the right-wing bleating to bomb Fox "News" after Geraldo Rivera revealed troop movements on the air.

Posted by: Stefan on January 11, 2006 at 1:59 PM | PERMALINK

I think the most telling thing about this whole blog entry is that...

...conservatives can't think their way out of a wet paper bag, yes.

But I already knew that.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 2:00 PM | PERMALINK
The "attacking the bias" fallacy is a subset of ad hominem for the simple reason that it avoids the subject by changing the subject to the person.

It is not a fallacy when used to question the credibility of information offered as true because someone said it, and the bias is in the source whose word is offered as the evidence for the truth of the proposition.

Where used against the source of an argument offered for the proposition, rather than a source of testimony for the proposition, it is a kind of ad hominem fallacy. Its important to distinguish the two circumstances.

Bias is not the same thing as credibility, btw.

No, evidence of bias is a grounds for questioning credibility, but the two are, indeed, distinct.

Posted by: cmdicely on January 11, 2006 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

Has anyone ever asked Bush to give us three or four names of his buddies in his unit in Alabama? Surely he should be able to do that, shouldn't he?

To be fair, he's shared a few anecdotes about some guys named Bud, Miller and Rock. And for a while he was seeing some chick named Mary Jane, he says.

Posted by: shortstop on January 11, 2006 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

Arguing source bias as against credibility of statements (such as their statements about the provenance of the memo) isn't ad hominem fallacy

By the same token, every time Kevin quotes a former Administration source as saying something incriminating to the Bush Administration, tbrosz or someone similarly dishonest will scoff that we would normally not be inclined to believe a Republican unless they're criticizing the administration.

tbrosz is smart enough to know, of course, that statements by someone who may arguably have a bias against making them have added credibility. Some of our other trolls, I'm not so sure.

Posted by: Gregory on January 11, 2006 at 2:06 PM | PERMALINK

Joe Buck has it right -- they are being prosecuted under the Col. Blimp Official Secrets Act. That means it's true, and maybe not a joke.

As for Kevin's dismissive "Sheesh", I don't know. Those two guys could easily have been killed by their MI-this or MI-that. Pretty scary stuff.

It behooves unfoolish Americans to support them.

Posted by: Guy Banister on January 11, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

Al Jezeera should have known that we did not provide our soldiers with proper body armor. So it was a good move to bomb the news agency, as otherwise Al Jezeera would publicize the lack of proper protection of our troops, and this information would have emboldened the Iraqi insurgents.

Posted by: lib on January 11, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

To be fair, he's shared a few anecdotes about some guys named Bud, Miller and Rock. And for a while he was seeing some chick named Mary Jane, he says.

If memory serves me right, he was rumored to enjoy a Coke every now and then.

Of course, dodging his flight physical had nothing to do with the drug tests that were conducted. Of course.

Posted by: Gregory on January 11, 2006 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

To be fair, he's shared a few anecdotes about some guys named Bud, Miller and Rock. And for a while he was seeing some chick named Mary Jane, he says.

LOL! Funny girl!

Posted by: trex on January 11, 2006 at 2:10 PM | PERMALINK


We should let Peter Beinart, Joe Lieberman & Martin Peretz wage the GWOT.

Posted by: Joe Loserman on January 11, 2006 at 2:13 PM | PERMALINK

Isn't it likely that Bush was serious, but he meant Al Jazeera's headquarters in Baghdad, not in Qatar?

Bush may not even have known that AJ is headquartered in Qatar.

Posted by: John H. on January 11, 2006 at 2:15 PM | PERMALINK

It looks bad and raises suspicion when the NYT knew and sat on the internal spying news for a full year.

From the outside, it can look very bad. For example, it can look like reporting is dangerous to the staff of the newspaper.

Coincidence is probable. But it looks bad.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m19465&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Posted by: We are not annoyed, nor annoying on January 11, 2006 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

Why is this dangerous, if true? (and I tend to believe it)

In the immortal words of Hank, jr. (no, not the hard drinking Monday Night Football one, Al) Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?

Posted by: northzax on January 11, 2006 at 2:18 PM | PERMALINK

It is not a fallacy when used to question the credibility of information offered as true because someone said it, and the bias is in the source whose word is offered as the evidence for the truth of the proposition.

To question it? To dismiss it? No, it doesn't constitute evidence in itself any more than the testimony of the biased person is definitive.

Remember, 'bias' was not only used to dismiss the case, said bias also had to be manufactured in order to do so and in the process the person doing so turned out to be wrong.

Where used against the source of an argument offered for the proposition, rather than a source of testimony for the proposition, it is a kind of ad hominem fallacy.

In this case, the suspicion should be of calumny rather than outright lying, since the action in question (bombing al Jazeera) has already happened in two countries and the people making the claim have faced official reprisals (having to do with state secrets) for making their claim.

But the person making the accusation didn't do that. He manufactured an identity, used that as the basis for an accusation of bias, and used THAT as an excuse to avoid the subject. All of this fits the objective of an ad hominem fallacy.

Other than that, I agree.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

The Political Pussycat is getting cold paws on this Al Jazeera story.

Wait till the Political Pussycat finds out Tice is the source for the NYT NSA story. Tice, the sicko whacko crazy guy (or so claimed the NSA when they revoked his clearance). Political Pussycat will be outta here so fast it will make your whiskers spin. (Could Tice be a friend of that sicko whacko crazy Texas guy who was Dan Rather's source? Oh jeeebus!)

Even though he has nine lives, Political Pussycat doesn't want to be caught dead near any story that might have 1% or better chance of eventually being proven wrong. Political Pussycat is always 100% right.

Posted by: Libby Sosume on January 11, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

"I think the most telling thing about this whole blog entry is that liberals implicitly approve of foreign meddling in American presidential elections.
"

alright the above is just such a weird statement that it may not deserve comment but....


Do you mean to say that they approve of allowing people from other countries who have relevant and material information regarding the capabilities of candidates for American office to share that information?

What is controversial with this? Do you mean to imply that conservatives believe that foreigners should not share that information?

Try a hyprocrisy test. If some British citizen (or French or whatever) had witnessed behavior of President Clinton (or candidate John Kerry) that reflected this poorly on his judgment, would you believe that it was "meddling" for him to share this information?


Somehow I'll bet you failed this test. But even if you didn't I submit that your underlying premise has some glaringly obvious flaws.

Posted by: JR on January 11, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom F*cker: Sounds like to me they should have forwarded the material to Dan Rather... he was also trying to influence the 2004 election.

As if the Swift Vets were not.

Or Korporate Amerika.

Or GOP activists engaging in voter intimidation and election fraud.

Or Bush and Cheney lying about Al Queda connections to Iraq.

Or Bush and Cheney lying about Kerry's stance on body armor.

Or Tom DeLay participating in a shakedown and bribery operation designed to accumulate money to influence voters (among other things).

Or Texas GOP state legislators temporarily suspending legislative rules that they themselves approved and which Democrats had followed for decades (to a GOP minority advantage many times) to get sufficient votes to redistrict the state.

F*cker indeed.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 11, 2006 at 2:35 PM | PERMALINK

Gee, where could they have gotten the idea that the US media might not be interested in a story that might damage Bush? Maybe because the media has been in the tank for Bush since 1999? Perhaps from all the damaging stories that the press sat on prior to the election? Like domestic spying (NYT), and Libby's perjury (Russert), the Texas Air National Guard (everybody but CBS), and CBS publicly canning a different story about Bush because of the backlash about the TANG?

Posted by: libdevil on January 11, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Wait till the Political Pussycat finds out Tice is the source for the NYT NSA story.

Ah, so this means Bush will retract his admission and stop explaining himself? It all goes back in the djinni's lamp?

cmdicely, what do I call this little bit of frippery?
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

This is what a dying story looks like.

Wait. No, it isn't.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

"I think the most telling thing about this whole blog entry is that liberals implicitly approve of foreign meddling in American presidential elections."

Well, certainly the GOP doesn't disapprove of foreign meddling in American presidential elections, since Bush urged Putin to do so and provided him a forum to accomplish just that, not to mention other Bush-friendly foreign leaders that the GOP rounded up to comment on the US presidential elections.

And then there is GOP meddling in the elections of other countries.

I guess it's okay if we meddle physically and directly in foreign elections (and even by force change leadership), but it is not okay for foreign leaders to even comment on US elections.

Typical conservative hypocrisy and double standards.

Freedom F*cker's dishonesty strikes again!

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 11, 2006 at 2:41 PM | PERMALINK

The Russians kill an exiled Chechen leader in Qatar. The Qatar government was not pleased. The killers were caught, tried, and convicted. Their movements were traced back to Russia in such a way as to make it clear that this was a state sponsored murder.

I seem to recall that Russia tried to apply pressure to get their guys out but did not succeed. As far as I know, they are still in jail in Qatar.

Certainly, that ought to be an object lesson to the U.S. government about how the Qatar government would respond.

Posted by: Jim Ramsey on January 11, 2006 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it. Posted by: Walter E. Wallis on January 11, 2006 at 1:41 PM

Yeah, God knows that should be the case, even if they happen to be, you know, dispersing truth. Al Jazeera isn't the "mouthpiece for Osama bin Laden" (they are actually anti-bin Laden) that the Bushies and Rummy like to claim. Have you ever actually watched an al Jazeera broadcast?

I recommend that anyone who has not seen Control Room go to Blockbuster immediately and rent it and watch it today.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

When a president gets American Soldiers killed in a war of choice, maybe he is who needs to be bombed.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for the links, Grand Moff Texan. always click the link!

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK

When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it. Posted by: Walter E. Wallis on January 11, 2006 at 1:41 PM

Well, according to conservatives that would include outlets such as CBS.

And since Bush got American soldiers killed by denying the body and vehicle armor to protect tax cuts for the wealthy and by lying to get America into Iraq in the first place and by not sending enough troops and by not providing the right training and by not planning for the insurgency etc etc etc . . .

. . . so just exactly what are you suggesting WEW?

Just curious.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 11, 2006 at 2:52 PM | PERMALINK

Global Citizen: "When a president gets American Soldiers killed in a war of choice, maybe he is who needs to be bombed."

So, does that explain the facial scrapes we're seeing so frequently?

Posted by: farmgirl on January 11, 2006 at 3:00 PM | PERMALINK

Lets talk armaments for a moment, shall we?

What kind of sense does it make to give patronage contracts to small companies with no mass-production experience, especially when GM and Ford, who actually have factories, trained factory workers with mass-production experience, are on the vergo of bankruptcy?

Meanwhile, the Cougar is being manufactured by a small company in South Carolina, that has never mass-produced anything, let alone armored troop carriers.

Then there is O'Gara International in Indiana, that armors the Humvees that are made four hours away and taken to O'gara to be partially disassembled and the armor added. This is particularly schizophrenic. First, the Hummer was never meant to be armored, it is a flat-bottomed utility vehicle, made to scramble across terrain quickly. When it is armored it loses that ability.

When the DOD tried to get the plans for up-armoring the Humvee from O'Gara they declined, because it might "adversely affect future profits of the company." That's fucking patriotic...Our net worth is worth more to us than the blood of your children. That, after all, is the American way, and if I oppose their rights to future profits, I'm un-american. Excuse me. I have to go puke.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

farmgirl: I almost wish. But unfortunately I think he's just too frickin' clumsy to shave.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 3:06 PM | PERMALINK

I also read that Washington Monthly was suggested as a target. Call your local Congressperson and demand an immediate investigation.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on January 11, 2006 at 3:07 PM | PERMALINK

Good one Stefan.

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

HMM I thought the only ones trying to influence the election where the Swift boat liars.

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

More on armored troop carriers here

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 3:26 PM | PERMALINK

Here's today's feelgood news about energy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/ap_on_bi_ge/whole_foods_energy_1

Note the comments about USAF and J&J. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with 1 step". The journey has begun, and this is one step.

Posted by: contentious on January 11, 2006 at 3:26 PM | PERMALINK

So, does that explain the facial scrapes we're seeing so frequently?

No, that would be President Korsakoff Syndrome's atrial fibrillation, a condition he inherited from Poppy. Sudden loss of blood-pressure leads to fainting spells.
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 3:26 PM | PERMALINK

How do we expect this fucktard to prosecute a war properly when he can't even watch football and eat pretzels at the same time?

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

The question is, are the documents real and are they true? If they are, it suggests that Bush is insane.

However, I am suspicious as to their veracity. I suspect Bush is sane but a moron, and under the control of people who are dangerous and incompetent.

On the other hand, I could well be wrong. The US has a bad track record with respect to journalists in Iraq. There is also a long pattern of behavior to indicate they are interested in quashing all dissent to their own activities in Iraq.

Posted by: Ba'al on January 11, 2006 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINK

You mischaracterize the Hitchens piece; in it he strongly suggests that Bush did indeed suggest bombing Al-Jazeera. You need to read the whole piece.

"A second reason for believing in the authenticity of the memo is that an unnamed spokesman for Blair was quoted in the original story as saying that Bush's remark was "humorous, not serious." This is as much as to concede that some such conversation did in fact take place. It is of course not always possible to tell when the president is joking, but another who saw the transcript claimed that he was "deadly serious, as was Blair." (This by the way is a rebuke to those who routinely taunt the prime minister as "Bush's poodle.")

A third and again somewhat inductive reason is the response of Colin Powell, who was finally asked about the meeting to his face outside St. John's Episcopal Church in Maclean, Va., on Sunday morning. The Daily Mirror's reporter, Ryan Parry, asked him a question that contained the date and subject of the meeting, and was successively told "I can't remember every meeting," "I don't know, you'll have to forgive me," "I don't recall this," "I don't remember the Al Jazeera thing, frankly," along with several more brushoffs of the same "nondenial denial" sort. I am not the world's greatest fan of Powell or of his secretaryship, but the chief steward of American foreign policy might be expected to remember a proposal to bomb the territory of a friendly neutral that is the site of U.S. Central Command, as well as a sharp dispute about it between his president and his country's chief political and military ally. If he doesn't feel confident enough to say: "That is too absurdly untrue to deserve even a comment from me," then he is not doing much better than stalling.

It is high time that this question was ventilated by people other than British editors and journalists who labor under the repressive conditions of the Official Secrets Act. Al Jazeera is not describable, perhaps, as a strictly objective station, but it is the main source of news in the Arab world because it is not the property of any state or party, and it has given live and unedited coverage of things like the elections in Iraq. In 2001, its office in Afghanistan was destroyed by "smart" bombs. In 2003, its correspondent in Baghdad was killed in an American missile strike. If it becomes widely believed that it has been or is being targeted, the consequences in the region will be rather more than Karen Hughes' "public diplomacy" can handle."

Posted by: Dustin Ridgeway on January 11, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Judging from the comments, it is apparent liberals explicitly apporve of active foreign meddling in American presidential election. And you wonder why the American people don't trust you guys on nation security issues, or even consider you unpatriotic.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on January 11, 2006 at 3:54 PM | PERMALINK

Quite the contrary, I don't approve of anyone meddling in presidential elections...Not Diebold, not the Swift Boaters, not even Rehnquist.

Simply count the votes and lose the electoral college. One man (or woman), one vote, and winner take all. Just like it was in Junior high when the Student Council was elected.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 4:01 PM | PERMALINK

Oh sure, knock O'Gara, GC. They went out of their way to put an extra shift on last week trying to get Freedom Fighter's tricycle ready and this is the thanks they get.

Posted by: stupid git on January 11, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fighter's little diatribe about how American Liberals are in favour of foreign intervention in American political campaigns, especially Presidential ones being a bad thing was truly funny to read. Leaving aside for the moment the several examples of democratically elected leaders being opposed/unsupported by the home of democracy (Haiti, Venezuela), let us examine the actions of the American Religious Right in Canadian politics.

For the past several years now there has been repeated assistance provided, both in terms of skill sets and money, from American conservative groups to oppose domestic Canadian initiatives because they are not in accordance with the conservative agenda in America. Marijuana reform, and especially this last year Same Sex Marriage literally received millions of dollars from America groups to oppose this domestic issue.

Then we come to the support they had been giving, in particular Ralph Reed but not just him, to shaping the electoral strategy of the current incarnation of the radical right in Canada. Indeed, this current election campaign is strongly similar in feel and nature to the 2000 GWB "compassionate conservative" campaign where all the policies that the leader used to stand for over his entire political history suddenly are non-operative and that he is at heart a centrist middle of the road Canadian socialist at heart. As well, his party is running a scandal based need for change of government, despite the fact that the current government was cleared by a very public and in depth independent inquiry, and the leader exonerated completely. Very similar to running against Bill Clinton's penis when you get right down to it, and unfortunately it has been working.

The irony is that the party that has governed for the past 12 years has taken our economy to better health than it has been in decades, both in terms of the business/economic generation and fiscal balance by the federal government. Yet because we are running surpluses Canadians are "overtaxed", despite the fact that there is still a roughly half trillion debt to pay off, and that is where the remainder of the surpluses have been going to. Personally, I always thought that one of the core conservative values was personal accountability and things like repayment of debts incurred, be it individuals, businesses, or governments.

There has been a strong link between the American conservative movement and the Reform/Canadian Alliance party which is now the core of the "new" Conservative party of Canada. So to see some American "Freedom Fighter" whining about this report being evidence of foreign interference in domestic elections, it being such a bad thing, and that it should be denigrated and painted as a bad thing for any American to see as anything other than evil just makes me laugh out loud.

America has a rich history of interfering in the foreign elections of many countries, including allies. Indeed, they do not just do so on foreign policy issues but domestic ones as well, do so routinely. Indeed, my home has been one of the most frequent targets of such conduct, and currently I am watching that interference in the national election in Canada. The ONLY reason for example that marijuana was not decriminalized/legalized in this country years to decades ago now is because of the reaction we would receive from America by doing so. So to see such whining over this report by Freedom Fighter is bad comedy at best.

Posted by: Scotian on January 11, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

"As if the Swift Vets were not."

Your logic would make sense if CBS changed CBS Evening News with Dan Rather to CBS Evening Commentary with Dan Rather, or the 60 Minutes News Magazine to 60 Minutes Commentary Magazine.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on January 11, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

"The ONLY reason for example that marijuana was not decriminalized/legalized in this country years to decades ago now is because of the reaction we would receive from America by doing so."

Why don't you Canadians grow a spine and do what's in your own interests rather than worry about what others think? For example, we certainly didn't care what Canadians thought when we sent Nobel Peace nominee Tookie to hell.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on January 11, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fry:

Shhhh, the adults are trying to have a conversation. Take your Ritalin and go to your room, daddy will be along in a while to tuck you in.

Posted by: Freedom Fry's Mommy on January 11, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

And you wonder why the American people don't trust you guys on nation security issues, or even consider you unpatriotic. - Posted by: Freedom Fighter

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Bush has been without majority support for his Iraq fuckup for two years as of today.

I'm sorry, you were saying ... ?
.

Posted by: Grand Moff Texan on January 11, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

French Fighter: Quit crying you guys lost 2000 and 2004 elections.The only way your shrub got into office was cheating, Now stop crying.oh and your prez. is at a all time low 33% now there is somthing to cry about.

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

When a news outlet gets American soldiers killed, hell yes bomb it.

I think Mr. Wallis has called for the bombing of the White House.

Posted by: Powerpuff on January 11, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

HMM I thought the only ones trying to influence the election where the Swift boat liars.
Actually, the Swifties weren't trying; they were succeeding. CBS was trying.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on January 11, 2006 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

Damn it, Conspiracy Nut, you beat me to it!

Posted by: Yancey Ward on January 11, 2006 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

So you admit Bush got into the Whitehouse on a pack of lies. Clap Clap Clap

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 5:22 PM | PERMALINK

And still nobody remembers serving in the Nat. guard with Bush. Wonder why?

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 5:27 PM | PERMALINK

Good thing Yancy or you would have looked the fool.

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 5:37 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder if Freedom Fucker hates Tom Delay for letting the Russians influence American politics when he accepted their bribes?

Probably not, besides he's too dumb to realize he's being used when he blindly supports the Right.

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus on January 11, 2006 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom F*cker: Judging from the comments, it is apparent liberals explicitly apporve of active foreign meddling in American presidential election. And you wonder why the American people don't trust you guys on nation security issues, or even consider you unpatriotic.

Judging from conservative actions, it is apparent that conservatives have explicitly approved of active foreign meddling in American persidential elections.

Liberal comments would, at most, be implicitly approving of such meddling, but then Freedom F*cker has always shown a knack for not really understanding the English language, as well as not being cognizant of the pertinent facts.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 11, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

And judges are only "activist" when they rule against the dominant ideology of the moment that the right is embracing.

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 11, 2006 at 6:14 PM | PERMALINK

Global Citizen: And judges are only "activist" when they rule against the dominant ideology of the moment that the right is embracing.

Yes, conservatives are the world's premier flip-floppers.

They were for Saddam before they were against him.

They were for Noriega before they were against him.

They were for apartheid before they were against it.

They were for racism before . . . oh, never mind this one.

They were for torture before they were against it.

They were for WMDs for Saddam before they were against WMDs for Saddam.

They were for the Taliban before they were against the Taliban.

They were for sound science before they were against it.

They were against wiretapping before they were for it.

They were against presidents spying on opposition figures before they were for it.

They were for executive power during Reagan and Bush 41, then against it for Clinton, then for it again for Bush 43.

The list is virtually endless.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 11, 2006 at 6:25 PM | PERMALINK

The real story is that most people believe the administration is capable of doing this and lying about it. It is not a competent of truthful administration and prone to making huge blunders. They are also not humanitarians. The huge number of troll postings on this thread are interesting as well. The transcripts will come out. Same with the NSA stories. In due course. But no one believes the administration is capable of anything but "truthiness."

I am disappointed with Kevin's occasional spinelessness. It is frustrating. Libby Sosume put it best with the pussy-cat post.

Posted by: Sparko on January 11, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

Clinton, Best Pres. ever.

Posted by: scott on January 11, 2006 at 7:04 PM | PERMALINK

Gee, where could they have gotten the idea that the US media might not be interested in a story that might damage Bush? Maybe because the media has been in the tank for Bush since 1999?

And in the tank for the Repukes since 1992...

But unfortunately I think he's just too frickin' clumsy to shave.

Well, shaving becomes a very difficult activity when your shitface drunk...

Posted by: tam1MI on January 11, 2006 at 7:38 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think there's much point in commenting on this issue until more is known.

On the other hand, the very fact that so many people allow for the distinct possibility that Bush may have been serious tells you a lot about Bush. People do not have much confidence in his judgement.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on January 11, 2006 at 7:45 PM | PERMALINK

I note that Sparko just said the same thing.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on January 11, 2006 at 7:47 PM | PERMALINK

The bubble boy with the backpack did not know who Perves Musharif was in 2000. It was said then he would have experienced advisors - then it was said , ' what if those advisor's disagree...' Then it was said that recounts are UnAmerikkkan. You know the rest but as far as the WTO Doha round goes it certainly could ' close-the-sale'!

Hitler loved Julius Streicher - Hitler Bush loves Arnie Coulter.

Posted by: professor rat on January 11, 2006 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

Did not get to read all the comments, so somebody may have mentioned this, but Hitchens was not arguing that the idea that Bush brought this question up was preposterous. In fact he actually supported the notion that Bush probably raised the question. He was saying that the idea of bombing Al Jazeera is disasterous. Duh.

Basically, he was commenting on how ridiculous the notion of carrying out this idea would be. He's right.

I love Hitchens, just cuz he's ALWAYS a fun read. Sure he's crazy-go-nuts. But this article is pretty tame. And he's right.

AS crazy as he is, he's SO much smarter than our president.

Godspeed, Hitch!

Posted by: Hitchens Rocks! on January 11, 2006 at 10:22 PM | PERMALINK

Did not get to read all the comments, so somebody may have mentioned this, but Hitchens was not arguing that the idea that Bush brought this question up was preposterous. In fact he actually supported the notion that Bush probably raised the question. He was saying that the idea of bombing Al Jazeera is disasterous. Duh.

Basically, he was commenting on how ridiculous the notion of carrying out this idea would be. He's right.

I love Hitchens, just cuz he's ALWAYS a fun read. Sure he's crazy-go-nuts. But this article is pretty tame. And he's right.

AS crazy as he is, he's SO much smarter than our president.

Godspeed, Hitch!

Posted by: Hitchens Rocks! on January 11, 2006 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

The following is the UK government's response to a FOIA request:

"From the Private Secretary
10 Downing St
22nd December 2005
Dear Mr Wood,
Thank you for your email of 24 November in which you request a copy of any memos or motes that record President Bush's discussions with the Prime Minister about the bombing of the al-Jazeera television station in Qatar. Your request has been handled under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

I can confirm that the cabinet Office holds information which is relevant to your request."

If there was no such conversation, as Bliar and Bush would have us believe, then what possible information could the Cabinet Office have that is relevant to that conversation...!

Also, Kilfoyle says he passed the story to John Latham in the US, and that democrats decided not to use it!

Which Democrats? Unless John Latham took the decision to keep it quiet all by himself, people in the Democratic party had to know about this to take the decision not to use it, and are keeping quiet
Why are Democrats covering for George Bush?

Posted by: ringverse on January 12, 2006 at 8:40 AM | PERMALINK

Again, Freedom Frighter, you dodged my question.

Do you believe that "foreigners" who have witnessed behavior that is relevant and material to a presidential candidate's fitness for American office should just shut up and hide that information?

In other words, a Clinton or a Kerry in the presence of a foreigner can do or say anything he wants to and that foreigner must not mention it or he is "meddling in US politics"?

I really would like an answer, it's early in the day and I could use a little humor. Is this [i]really[/i] what you think?

I sometimes wonder whether the imperial president that Bush partisans are being forced to pretend they endorse will outlast him. Somehow based on the treatment Clinton got from the right I have a few vague shadowy doubts.

Posted by: JR on January 12, 2006 at 9:31 AM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: david on January 13, 2006 at 4:48 AM | PERMALINK

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