Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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January 12, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

ARTICLE 31....Hmmm. Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commanding officer at Abu Ghraib, has been granted immunity from prosecution and will be testifying about the military's interrogation policies at an upcoming court martial. But what about the guy responsible for "Gitmo-izing" those policies in the first place?

Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, a central figure in the U.S. detainee-abuse scandal, this week invoked his right not to incriminate himself in court-martial proceedings against two soldiers accused of using dogs to intimidate captives at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, according to lawyers involved in the case.

....Miller invoked his military Article 31 rights through his Army lawyer on Tuesday, after a Navy judge in the Military District of Washington ruled that lawyers defending the two dog handlers could interview Miller this week. Article 31 rights are almost identical to those afforded civilians by the Fifth Amendment, and invoking them does not legally imply guilt.

....In an interview with defense attorneys for those MPs in August 2004, Miller said he never told Pappas to use dogs in questioning detainees...."At no time did we discuss the use of dogs in interrogations," Miller said, according to a transcript.

So why isn't Miller willing to repeat his previous denial? His lawyer's explanation is basically that Miller is a busy guy and he's already answered the question. Am I the only one who finds that slightly less than convincing?

Kevin Drum 1:42 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (111)

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Comments

What has GWB wrought?

Even honorable military generals like Miller have been soiled by obeying the orders of GWB's minions.

What a shame.

Posted by: lib on January 12, 2006 at 2:01 AM | PERMALINK

His lawyer's explanation is basically that Miller is a busy guy and he's already answered the question. Am I the only one who finds that slightly less than convincing?

You might not realize this but in America people are INNOCENT unless proven GUILTY. Miller has not been proven guilty of any crime. He's probably tired of answering the same questions over and over again when he's busy doing more important things like fighting terrorists. Unfortunately the press simply can't let go of this story. Rather than engage in a responsible debate about Iraq the press and its liberal allies have decided to question the motives of the soldiers in uniform who are trying to kill the terrorists before they strike again. It is this kind of defeatism which makes the American people hate the press and liberals so much.

Posted by: Al on January 12, 2006 at 2:07 AM | PERMALINK

Another interesting take on the culture of our miltary.

Posted by: lib on January 12, 2006 at 2:10 AM | PERMALINK

if there is any justice, the millers and pappases of the world will be summarily lynched upon return to civilian life.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 2:17 AM | PERMALINK

Al: seriously, try kissing a girl -- I think it will make a big difference in your life.

Oh, and if people are INNOCENT unless proven GUILTY (as you wrongly phrased it) then by corollary the two "secret memo Britons" you were impugning yesterday must be innocent as well.

Right?

It is this kind of hypocrisy and double standard which makes the American people hate conservatives and trolls so much.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 2:17 AM | PERMALINK

Is he still on active duty? Every American has a right against self-incrimination but no American has the right to a federal paycheck. If a government employee pleads the 5th, thats grounds for suspension if not termination.

Posted by: beowulf on January 12, 2006 at 2:18 AM | PERMALINK

lib:

Of course, Al's attitude is neatly captured in that devastating critique by the British commander in that Guardian piece.

But as Al will tell us, that's just another carping defeatist Euroweenie who just can't cut it next to the can-do spirit of America's fighting men in uniform.

Except that the Brits are our staunchest allies.

Oh well.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 2:19 AM | PERMALINK

...the American people hate conservatives and trolls so much.

Ever since that damned LoTR trilogy, the life of us Trolls has been hell, pure hell!

Posted by: Trip Trop Trip Trop on January 12, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

A song, dedicated to Al, conspiracy nut, rdw, McAristotle, Fat White Guy, peanut/Charlie contentious, cranky (not Cranky Observer) and the various and sundry.

(I'm leaving tbrosz out of it because of his egg-salad post today in the ID thread which everybody loved.)

I'M A TROLL
FEED MY GOAL
FLUSH ME DOWN THE TOILET BOWL
I HAVE SUCH AN UGLY SOUL
WRITING POSTS THAT MAKE YOU SCROLL

TROLL TROLL TROLL
TROLL TROLL TROLL

SOME MAY THINK THAT I'M A MOLE
OR THAT I LACK SELF-CONTROL
WONDER WHAT I'LL NEXT EXTOLL
ARGUE BLATHER SPEW CAJOLE

TROLL TROLL TROLL
TROLL TROLL TROLL

EVER WATCHFUL ON PATROL
AS I CLIMB THE GRASSY KNOLL
STEEP ENOUGH TO FALL AND ROLL
DOWN INTO THE DRAINAGE HOLE

TROLL TROLL TROLL
TROLL TROLL TROLL

UGLY SMELLY NASTY TROLL
TOUCH ME WITH A TEN-FOOT POLE
STUFF MY STOCKINGS UP WITH COAL
JUST GIVE ME A STARRING ROLE

TROLL TROLL TROLL
TROLL TROLL TROLL

MY NAME'S NOEL
I'M A TROLL
SITTING ON THE TOILET BOWL
ALL MY BEST IDEAS I STOLE
VERBAL SPHINCTER DECONTROL

TROLL TROLL TROLL
TROLL TROLL TROLL

{rinse 'n' repeat}

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 2:25 AM | PERMALINK

TROLL TROLL TROLL

Aaaaaaaiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!

Posted by: Trip Trop Trip Trop on January 12, 2006 at 2:30 AM | PERMALINK

Yup. "Support the troops" - Democrat style.
Civil rights can be waived if the results bash Bush!

Posted by: McAristotle on January 12, 2006 at 2:31 AM | PERMALINK

Oooh! Spend time making cute songs. Make the bubble stronger.

Posted by: McAristotle on January 12, 2006 at 2:37 AM | PERMALINK

Civil Rights DON'T EXIST if we can bash McARISTOTLE !!!

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 2:37 AM | PERMALINK

You only wish you had a tenth of the wit it took to write that song, McA, you literal-minded suckup to your colonial masters.

I mean, just how pathetic *is* it to be an ethnically Chinese Malaysian national living in Australia posting regularly on an American political site?

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 2:40 AM | PERMALINK

I mean, just how pathetic *is* it to be an ethnically Chinese Malaysian national living in Australia posting regularly on an American political site?
Bob
Posted by: rmck1

WOW!!!! is that what he is???? that's pretty fucking pathetic.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 2:41 AM | PERMALINK

Nads:

I mean ... how much of a wannabe *is* this guy with that kinda ethnic/national/residence resume, huh?

Like he's frickin' Joe Republican in downtown Canton Ohio or something :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 2:45 AM | PERMALINK

Ooooh, psyke!

You can't threaten to bash me. I'm a poor foreigner exploited by Bush and your military-industrial-oil complex. That would be wrong.

Why don't you just pretend alternative views don't exist?

Posted by: McAristotle on January 12, 2006 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK

That's the thing about the xenophobia card.

It cuts both ways.

If McA wants to post here and parrot the GOP talking points on every issue -- but with special vigor on the GWOT and the GWB's mission to democratize the world, well ...

Let's never let him forget that in the GOP's eyes he's just another greasy li'l furriner in the final analysis.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:00 AM | PERMALINK

McA:

That's spelled "psych."

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:02 AM | PERMALINK

McA:

News flash: This is a liberal blog. There are plenty of conservative blogs you can go to if your goal is to be respected.

But .. maybe you doubt that the more-American-than-thou types who post there would give you any respect -- no matter how vigorously you try to kiss their asses?

Sheesh ... that's gotta be quite a dilemma for you.

So you come here to prove your dedication to their cause by being a gadfly and suffering abuse at the hands of American liberals.

Well certainly ideological abuse has got to cause a *lot* less cognitive dissonance than that, umm, uther kind.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:07 AM | PERMALINK

You can't threaten to bash me. I'm a poor foreigner exploited by Bush and your military-industrial-oil complex. That would be wrong.

sellouts are nothing new ... the british called them wogs, I believe.

Why don't you just pretend alternative views don't exist?
Posted by: McAristotle

I find it hard to take seriously the views of someone so impressed with the white man that he's willing to overlook centuries of oppression and colonialsism, just to try and move up the food chain and get in closer with the palefaces.

It isn't as if the bigots you idolize are ever going to accept you, you know.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 3:20 AM | PERMALINK

Poor McA ...

I think we traumatized the little bugger.

Gods damn me for having a liberal conscience about it.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:30 AM | PERMALINK

h, and if people are INNOCENT unless proven GUILTY (as you wrongly phrased it) then by corollary the two "secret memo Britons" you were impugning yesterday must be innocent as well.
Let's never let him forget that in the GOP's eyes he's just another greasy li'l furriner in the final analysis.

Posted by: tim on January 12, 2006 at 3:51 AM | PERMALINK

in the GOP's eyes he's just another greasy li'l furriner in the final analysis.

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:00 AM | PERMALINK

Who cares about respect?

Follow the Japanese model. Get rich, build your own culture, don't wait for another race to love you.

And strangely enough the surest way to fail to do that is to believe in lefty economics, politics or foreign policy.


Posted by: McAristotle on January 12, 2006 at 4:40 AM | PERMALINK

Follow the Japanese model. Get rich, build your own culture, don't wait for another race to love you.
Posted by: McAristotle

... and proceed towards misinformed views of your own racial superiority, invade other countries to control their resources, proceed with rampant torture, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, ally yourself with other fascists, ... eventually perpetuate enough violence that the rest of the world feels justified in visiting another atrocity on your civilians ... twice.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 4:52 AM | PERMALINK

McAristotle:

If your cultural base is authoritarian to begin with -- like most of the Pac Rim.

If your cultural base *isn't* authoritarian (like Western Europe and the Commonwealth), you may have other options.

Australia, after all, has nationalized healthcare :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 4:53 AM | PERMALINK

Follow the Japanese model. Get rich, build your own culture, don't wait for another race to love you.
Posted by: McAristotle

... and proceed towards misinformed views of your own racial superiority, invade other countries to control their resources, proceed with rampant torture, ethnic cleansing, and genocide, ally yourself with other fascists, ... eventually perpetuate enough violence that the rest of the world feels justified in visiting another atrocity on your civilians ... twice.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 4:52 AM | PERMALINK

And this is another amazing show of liberal racism.

If someone disagrees with you, dredge up WWII issues then make light hearted comments on the use of nukes.

But if a foreigner happens to be against Bush, even if he's actually in the middle of atrocities like Castro or Osama or Saddam - he's just misunderstood.

I'll take capitalism over unprinciple hypocrisy any day.

--------------------

Australia, after all, has nationalized healthcare :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 4:53 AM | PERMALINK

Yup. And an organized immigration policy so that sort of thing is possible. If you educate your citizens well and you make sure migrants have skills, the tax base is largely enough to allow universal health care without the economy collapsing because education = productivity.

And Australia invaded Iraq and staunchly supports Bush. And its recent growth has come from tax cuts, tariff reduction and not bending over for unions. And its right wing party is called the Liberal party.

The world is a stranger place than liberal dogma will admit.

Posted by: McA on January 12, 2006 at 5:12 AM | PERMALINK

McA

The US occupation built (and the ruling political party of post war Japan maintained) the most socialist system in Asia with damn near the flattest income distribution of any industrialized nation in modern history right up into the 1990's. Which country maintained (and maintains) the lower crime rate to go with their economic success dictatorial free market Taiwan or democratic socialist Japan? hmm? Which country has the lower poverty rate? hmm?

Posted by: joe on January 12, 2006 at 5:40 AM | PERMALINK

Shhh. Let McMao think that his white-hoods-in-the-closet fellow travellers, the same guys who didn't blink twice at Katrina, think of him as a successful businessman and not anything more than just another Chinky-Dinky Ratman. (With regards to The Onion.) Given the sad pitiful state one has to be to come here trolling for attention, its obvious that view is the only thing coming between him and swallowing a Browning.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on January 12, 2006 at 5:57 AM | PERMALINK

only thing coming between him and swallowing a Browning.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on January 12, 2006 at 5:57 AM | PERMALINK

No guns here remember?

-----------------

just another Chinky-Dinky Ratman.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on January 12, 2006 at 5:57 AM | PERMALINK

More liberal racism. Only PC when people agree with you. Ratmen own your bonds remember?

-----------------

McA

The US occupation built (and the ruling political party of post war Japan maintained) the most socialist system in Asia with damn near the flattest income distribution of any industrialized nation in modern history right up into the 1990's.

Posted by: joe on January 12, 2006 at 5:40 AM | PERMALINK

I'll say this for the Japanese. Their socialism don't look like your socialism. Note: Toyota vs GM.

You'd be suprised what a society can afford if its not tied to dogma. Asia does a lot of things - it just doesn't breed an entitlement mentality when it does so.

Did you know Hong Kong, that jewel of the free market, has universal health care? Plus low taxes! Mind you, there are no parks and people live in the equivalent of American walk-in cupboards because of the way the government controls the supply of land for development to make money to pay for all this.

Universal health care can coexist with capitalism, if you have the right migration policy. A migrant is no strain on universal health care if his future incomes and taxes are likely to pay for that healthcare.

Not having trial lawyers also helps, and the rest is paid for by being willing to accept some cutbacks in quality to pay for help to the bottom.

Buy you guys can't think - or look at models in between like Australian or Tony Blair's Britain.

You can't because you are tied up in the anti-Bush agenda.

Posted by: McAristotle on January 12, 2006 at 6:37 AM | PERMALINK

Give Miller immunity so he can testify at the impeachment hearings.

Posted by: BroD on January 12, 2006 at 6:42 AM | PERMALINK

"His lawyer's explanation is basically that Miller is a busy guy and he's already answered the question. Am I the only one who finds that slightly less than convincing?"

Wel, if I were the prosecutor, I'd haul Gen. Miller & his ass back into court. Nobody has the right to refuse to answer on the grounds that they're busy and it's inconvenient--just ask Bill Clinton. If you assert the 5th Amendment privilege, you have to do so on the basis that answering the questions might tend to incriminate you.

Posted by: rea on January 12, 2006 at 7:25 AM | PERMALINK

Yes, people are innocent until proven guilty. They have a right to silence and a right against self-incrimination. They cannot legally (in civilised countries, at least) be compelled to give evidence against themselves, or tricked into doing so by calling them as witnesses in the trials of others. But at the same time, the right to silence and the right against self-incrimination cannot possibly be regarded as immunising defendants against inferences from other evidence already presented. And its a perfectly reasonable inference to draw from the statements made (e.g.) here that Miller ordered the use of dogs. Ideally, I'd like to see a paper trail (like we have for Sanchez), though.

And OTOH, I don't think it will matter how much evidence is accumulated against Miller, because according to the WaPo article, the military has refused to punish him anyway:

Miller, now based at the Pentagon as a senior official managing Army installations, was recommended for administrative punishment for his alleged mishandling of interrogations of a valuable detainee in Guantanamo Bay. But high-ranking military officials have declined to impose the penalty. The detainee was subjected to a number of abuses that mirrored the ones that later emerged in the Abu Ghraib photographs.

Posted by: Idiot/Savant on January 12, 2006 at 7:48 AM | PERMALINK

So why isn't Miller willing to repeat his previous denial?

His previous denial is presumably on the record. If he testifies under oath before a deposition, he presumably will lose his 5th amendment rights.

Posted by: raj on January 12, 2006 at 8:03 AM | PERMALINK

In other news, the US Army has gone blind.

They have cancelled the Aerial Common Sensor program. Many of the Pale Rider's best experiences in the US Army were integrated with supporting the idea that we have an Army that flies about, learning interesting things about the delightful people we are about to kill.

Aerial Common Sensor was long thought to be the panacea for those who want some safety and capability in our military. Too often, the Pale Rider has seen Army aviation go out with old and outdated equipment and has seen too many examples of where that equipment failed to bring everyone home.

A description of ACS:

The ACS system will be assigned to the Military Intelligence Battalion (Aerial Exploitation) of the Corps and Echelon Above Corps Military Intelligence Brigades. It will replace the Guardrail Common Sensor and Airborne Reconnaissance Low assets currently found in those organizations.

Guardrail and ARL...sniff, nostalgia. Sniff, sniff. Pale Rider is a bit sad now, thinking of his former days.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 8:07 AM | PERMALINK

Aren't the people conducting these inquiries "providing aid and comfort to the enemy?" They're "damaging the morale" of the troops, right? Why isn't Bush out speechifying against those looking into Abu Ghraib?

Posted by: steve duncan on January 12, 2006 at 8:08 AM | PERMALINK

Methinks McA is having problems immigrating to the USA

Posted by: WhoSays on January 12, 2006 at 8:36 AM | PERMALINK

Slightly less ? ? ? ?

Posted by: Chief on January 12, 2006 at 9:00 AM | PERMALINK

And Australia invaded Iraq and staunchly supports Bush.

We sent 1000 troops tops. We do not support Bush, or this war, and never have. Do not presume to speak for Australia.

Posted by: Shinobi on January 12, 2006 at 9:12 AM | PERMALINK

Conservatives are always opining, when they themselves aren't the subject of investigation, that invoking the Fifth Amendment is a sure sign of guilt and that relying on the Fourth Amendment to prevent evidence from being introduced at trial is an abomination, yet they are the quickest to invoke these when it comes to their own skins on the line and the quickest to defend them as not evidence of guilt in the same circumstances.

Same thing is true of indictments.

Just ask Sen. Hutchison (R - TX).

Just an observation.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Miller said he never told Pappas to use dogs in questioning detainees...."At no time did we discuss the use of dogs in interrogations,"

"I just told him to use those things that go 'woof'" he was heard to add. "I'm not responsible for how he chooses to read into things."

Posted by: masticator on January 12, 2006 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

McAnustotle: And strangely enough the surest way to fail to do that is to believe in lefty economics, politics or foreign policy.

Let's see, conservatives' foreign policy supported Saddam through more than a decade of totalitarian rule, torture, murder, and attempted genocide of the Kurds, even giving him more foreign aid after the latter.

Conservatives' have opposed every Central and South American democracy that hasn't been under US CIA control.

Conservatives' foreign policy has been to support American corporations' economic abuse of native peoples in the companies' overseas operations.

Conservatives' foregin policy has been to support drug dealing dictators (Noriega) right up until the time the media was set to expose the matter.

Conservatives' foreign policy was to oppose intervention in ongoing genocide in the Balkans, while defending intervention in non-ongoing genocide in Iraq and not intervening in the Sudanese genocide.

Pretty much confirms you to be the liar we all know you to be.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 9:58 AM | PERMALINK

McAnustotle: You can't because you are tied up in the anti-Bush agenda.

And you can't think because you are all tied up in worship of Bush as a god and can't see the world for his buttcheeks you are kissing.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 9:59 AM | PERMALINK

Bush Infatuation Syndrome (BIS) clearly has you on the ropes, McAnustotle.

Get medical help.

Prozac or maybe a really strong anti-psychotic.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

Rasmussen: Bush's "strongly disapprove" rating has grown to 40%.

Outstanding.

55% of Americans tied up in anti-Bush sentiment.

Outstanding call, McAnustotle, outstanding.

Such obvious and oblivious delusion from conservatives like yourself is priceless promotion for Democratic and liberal political ascendency.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

McAsshole claims to speak for Americans but he's not American.

He claims to speak for Australians, but he's not Australian.

He claims there are no lawyers in Hong Kong, but he doesn't even read his own press clippings:

"HONG KONG (AP) - A Hong Kong woman said conservation officers chased a stray monkey into her home, where it went on a rampage that
destroyed an expensive flat-screen television.

Now she's suing the government.

Cai Ai-lan told the Small Claims Tribunal officials spooked the monkey with nets while they were trying to catch it in September and
it went on a minor rampage in her apartment, the South China Morning Post newspaper said."

C'mon McAsshole, just pay the nice woman for the TV you broke and shut the fuck up, OK?

Posted by: solar on January 12, 2006 at 10:06 AM | PERMALINK

Conservatives' foreign policy was to oppose intervention in ongoing genocide in the Balkans, while defending intervention in non-ongoing genocide in Iraq and not intervening in the Sudanese genocide.

Pretty much confirms you to be the liar we all know you to be.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 9:58 AM | PERMALINK

And Lefty policies would be to oppose intervention on everything including Iraq...one more genocide

Posted by: McA on January 12, 2006 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

And Lefty policies would be to oppose intervention on everything including Iraq...one more genocide

no, you're thinking of Buchanan-style conservatives.

Posted by: cleek on January 12, 2006 at 10:40 AM | PERMALINK

A letter in the LA Times re. the recent statements of GWB distils the attitude of all the Republicans: we want open debate as long as it is rigged so we are the eventual winners.

Posted by: lib on January 12, 2006 at 10:52 AM | PERMALINK

Like most officers in the US armed forces, Major General Miller is a coward. Cowards have the personality type that allows them to torture helpless imprisoned people, who have no ability to retaliate. The inability to retaliate arouses cowards like Miller to act out their violent sado-masochistic fantasies, making them no different than Saddam's sons. This personality trait is shared by many war pigs, especially President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and many in the officer corps.

Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 10:52 AM | PERMALINK

Like most officers in the US armed forces, Major General Miller is a coward.

No they're not. They may be too concerned with their own careers, but they're not deserving of a blanket statement like this. Hostile is back to pretend to be the outraged liberal. Welcome back Hostile--thanks for bringing your unique form of theater of the absurd.

This personality trait is shared by many war pigs, especially President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and many in the officer corps.

Whoops, almost slipped up there. You use 'most' and 'many' because you're trying to keep from giving up the game.

Nice try, though.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 11:01 AM | PERMALINK

no, you're thinking of Buchanan-style conservatives.

Posted by: cleek on January 12, 2006 at 10:40 AM | PERMALINK

Well, he sucks too but at least he's only part of the party.

Posted by: McA on January 12, 2006 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

Al,

You might not realize this but in America people are INNOCENT unless proven GUILTY.

You might not realize this, but in America, as in the rest of the world, people are innocent or guilty in fact based on their acts; they are legally presumed and treated as innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as a means of protecting people from potential abuse of the disproportionate power of government.

This, of course, has no bearing on discussing whether or not a person is most likely factually guilty among persons outside of the criminal justice process (even when that inference is made from acts within the criminal jsutice context), and it is absolutely perverse to twist it into a maxim justifying witholding public comment and non-criminal judgement on abuse of power in government.

How come the Right knows the words associated with basic American values, but has totally lost understanding of the meaning?

Posted by: cmdicely on January 12, 2006 at 11:35 AM | PERMALINK

Is he still on active duty? Every American has a right against self-incrimination but no American has the right to a federal paycheck. If a government employee pleads the 5th, thats grounds for suspension if not termination.

Posted by: beowulf

Another lefty fool speaks and shows his ignorance. Drawing a government paycheck does not deny you of your civl rights.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 11:36 AM | PERMALINK

Coach is absolutely correct about military personnel being able to use Article 31.

However, when a 2 star does invoke the Article, he will never become a 3 star.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 11:47 AM | PERMALINK

Thank you for bringing my inconsistent vocabulary to my attention. Countless, innumerable, numberless, uncountable, unnumbered, untold; several, some; miscellaneous, mixed, sundry, various; diverse, manifold, multifarious, myriad officers in the US armed forces, like Major General Miller, are cowards.

If Major General Miller was not a coward he would testify. Like a lot of other men and women in the armed forces, Miller's compelling desire to become an officer derives from cowardice. Being an officer means you have the lawful power to order underlings to perform tasks officers would not perform themselves.

They may be too concerned with their own careers

Is that a many, most, a majority who trade their humanity for career goals, or is it countable, limited, or just a few who order enlisted men/women to forsake their humanity?

Having a military may be a necessary evil for our society, but it should be taught as common knowledge that people who desire to become military leaders have the very worst type of personalities and would be ostracized in any other profession.

Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

Hostile is absolutely correct about the manner in which officers achieve their silver and gold.

Why not have all recruits "wrassle" one another. One gigantic "group grope" - winner becomes an officer - Is this not how Rumdumb started - out "arm-wrassling" the others?

Thanks, Hostile for your incoming missive - Your time on target is absolutely amazing whenever our military is mentioned. You must be hanging out with Aiming Circle Annie.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

How come the Right knows the words associated with basic American values, but has totally lost understanding of the meaning?

Posted by: cmdicely

You lefties wrote the book on attacking and undermining American values. It seems to be your national pastime. It is amazing that we have any left after you lefties and the ACLU continue the never ending onslaught against values of any kind.

Since the left does not approve, value or practice many American values. It is amazing and hilarious that you would think you could determine if someone else had or understood American values. I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

Having a military may be a necessary evil for our society, but it should be taught as common knowledge that people who desire to become military leaders have the very worst type of personalities and would be ostracized in any other profession.

Posted by: Hostile

Glad to see you know nothing about the miltary, have no respect for it and are totally hostile towards our men and women in the armed forces. Prttey typical bullshit from the left. I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK
You lefties wrote the book on attacking and undermining American values.

Its true. Lefties have written many books describing the attacking and undermining of American values (e.g., Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them), but the attacking and undermining itself is the province of the Right.

It is amazing that we have any left after you lefties and the ACLU continue the never ending onslaught against values of any kind.

No, see, things like freedom of speech, the legal presumption of innocence, etc. -- the things the ACLU protects -- are fundamental American values. But thanks for demonstrating the Right's hostility to American values that I was talking about.

Posted by: cmdicely on January 12, 2006 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

FWG,

May come as a shock to you, but there are several, er many, of us on the left who despise Hostile's military comments.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on January 12, 2006 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

Another lefty fool speaks and shows his ignorance. Drawing a government paycheck does not deny you of your civl rights.

Well, depending on who signs that paycheck.

See, active duty military falls under the UCMJ and that's why he invoked Article 31 and NOT the fifth amendment.

So yes, drawing a government paycheck certainly does deny a person civil rights, especially when you take that oath of service, which binds you to the UCMJ.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

No, see, things like freedom of speech, the legal presumption of innocence, etc. -- the things the ACLU protects -- are fundamental American values. But thanks for demonstrating the Right's hostility to American values that I was talking about.

Posted by: cmdicely

Don't even start with the ACLU protects freedom of speech and fundamental American values. The only freedom of speech they protect is the type that agrees with them. They sue Hannity, Limbuagh and Hedgecock to shut them up because they don't like what they have to say. They sue to destroy every vestige of chistianity no matter the historical or cultural significance.
The sue to deny parental rights of educational and medical oversight of their children. So the ACLU is a left wing bunch of lawyers with a left wing agenda. They lost whatever moral capital they built early in their existence and just become another bunch of lefty wingnuts.

You lefties have done nothing but attack parental rights on all levels and religious expression.

You also contantly denigrate what our military leadership and troops do. While talking out of the otherside of your mouth claiming to support the troops. Which rings hollow considering you actions and words.

You only mention values like freedom of speech that the left and and right both value but ignore everything else. This only confirms that you have a very narrow view of American values thus no real understanding of them in general.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

So yes, drawing a government paycheck certainly does deny a person civil rights, especially when you take that oath of service, which binds you to the UCMJ.

Posted by: Pale Rider

Try to parse it anyway you want. You still have rights in the military and you can sue the military in civilian courts. So you still have civil liberties and being in the military or other government service does not make you a second hand citizen with no rights..

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

And Australia invaded Iraq and staunchly supports Bush

Think again:

11:40 p.m. December 30, 2005

SYDNEY, Australia Australians' support for the Iraq war has fallen in the past year, with two-thirds now saying the war was not worthwhile, according to results of a poll published Saturday.

http://tinyurl.com/dhve8

Even in conservative Oz the blinders are coming off about Iraq.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

And Australia invaded Iraq and staunchly supports Bush

Think again:

11:40 p.m. December 30, 2005

SYDNEY, Australia Australians' support for the Iraq war has fallen in the past year, with two-thirds now saying the war was not worthwhile, according to results of a poll published Saturday.

http://tinyurl.com/dhve8

Even in conservative Oz the blinders are coming off about Iraq.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 12:55 PM | PERMALINK

They sue Hannity, Limbuagh
Gee, FWG, I know your arguments are based on the overpowering righteousness of your passions, rather than mere facts , but maybe you should check things out once in a while. Not for me of course, your incisive logic, and lyrical rhetoric have shown me the error of my ways, but you know guys like bob...they hew to old fashioned stuff like...well...facts.

Posted by: LW Phil on January 12, 2006 at 12:56 PM | PERMALINK

Don't even start with the ACLU protects freedom of speech and fundamental American values. They sue to destroy every vestige of chistianity no matter the historical or cultural significance.

Fat White Boob, you may want to actually educate yourself on issues before you spout off on them with your malodorous Cheetoh breath:

After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries (5/11/2004)


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

DETROIT - The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan today announced an out-of-court settlement between the Utica Community School District and a local student over the censorship of her 2001 yearbook entry. The student's entry had been deleted from the yearbook because it contained a passage from the Bible.

"While it is true that the Constitution forbids public schools to promote religion, schools must be careful not to suppress the private religious expression of students," said ACLU of Michigan Legal Director Michael J. Steinberg, who represented the student. "In this case, a high school purported to create an open forum for student expression, yet censored a student's speech because it was religious in nature."

The ACLU protects Christians and Jews, White and Black, and it even protects fat white bastards like Rush Limbaugh from his own hypocrisy on drug use. Just because you lack the ability to understand nuance doesn't change the facts -- as Rider showed you when he handed your ass to you on the UCMJ/civil rights issue.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 12:59 PM | PERMALINK

trex.......I think I love you! Really, Al needs to unclench his butt cheeks just a bit. And hey, from a womans point of view..subservient as we are...when a superior officer gives an order....is that order "crystal clear" or what?

Posted by: avahome on January 12, 2006 at 1:00 PM | PERMALINK

During the Korean War, frostbite was a very serious problem for all of our troops. In fact, in the Marine Corps, there was one case where frost bite was able to penetrate the brain of a Marine, thereby permanently freezing any thought process. He was able to return to the states, has become very corpulent, and resides on the west coast where he occasionally "Coaches" cockroaches to clusterf---.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 1:15 PM | PERMALINK

Try to parse it anyway you want. You still have rights in the military and you can sue the military in civilian courts. So you still have civil liberties and being in the military or other government service does not make you a second hand citizen with no rights..

Of course it does. For one thing, you lose your right to free speech when in the military. You aren't, for example, allowed to publicly criticize anyone in your chain of command, up to and including the President, and you can be disciplined if you do so.

Nor, to use another example, are you free to engage in sodomy, or have a same-sex relationship, or have an affair outside of marriage. Do any of those and you could be looking at a court-martial.

Posted by: Stefan on January 12, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

Aw shucks, Ava, you're much too kind...[looking down, shuffling feet]

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 1:17 PM | PERMALINK

And get a divorce while working for the University of Oklahoma, and find out that you have been terminated.

"Oklahoma, OK"

Posted by: thethirdPaul on January 12, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

You still have rights in the military and you can sue the military in civilian courts. So you still have civil liberties and being in the military or other government service does not make you a second hand citizen with no rights..

You have rights under the UCMJ. You have the right to due process. But just a hint: it doesn't resemble anything in the constitution. For example, if the First Sergeant goes through a room in the barracks, and finds a massive hydroponics operation which a soldier has been growing something he/she is not supposed to be growing, how is the Constitution going to save that soldier's butt?

Another hint: it won't.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

Lt Gen is a term that the good general will never be able to use.

Where, oh where did my extra star go?, cryeth Ricardo Sanchez.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on January 12, 2006 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

Fat White Lie: You lefties have done nothing but attack parental rights on all levels and religious expression.

Lie #1.

You also contantly denigrate what our military leadership and troops do.

Lie #2.

While talking out of the otherside of your mouth claiming to support the troops.

First part of statement, Lie #3.

Which rings hollow considering you actions and words.

Lie #4.

Now, let's look at how Fat White Lie's support of Bush doesn't show support for our troops in spades . . .

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who denied them body and vehicle armor in order to protect his tax cuts for the wealthy, then had his Sec Def lie about why the armor wasn't provided.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who had the Pentagon try to cut their hazard pay for serving in Iraq.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who delayed improvements to body armor because he had more pressing concerns pushing tax cuts for the wealthy.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who refused to provide enough troops to get the insurgents the first time around and secure the country.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who sent our troops to Iraq on the basis of lies.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who fatuously proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" while our troops were still dying and then denied being responsible.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who didn't provide the proper training for our troops before sending them in to secure and hold a country.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who allows them to be scapegoats for torture policies designed and approved at the highest levels of the administration.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who invited terrorist attacks against our troops by saying, in effect, "bring it on."

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who insists that they stay in harm's way even though there is nothing left to accomplish.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who lets the military punish those who don't re-enlist by sending them back to Iraq to serve out their remaining few days or weeks of tour.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who invites our enemies to torture our troops by condoning torture of our enemies.

If you supported the troops, you wouldn't be supporting a president who shirked his own duty and then helped defame those who did not.

Fat White F*cker only supports our troops by paying them lip service.

In every other respect, he shows absolute despite and distain for them.

You only mention values like freedom of speech that the left and and right both value but ignore everything else.

Lie #5 and #6 in same sentence.

This only confirms that you have a very narrow view of American values thus no real understanding of them in general.

Lie #7.

Pretty good lie count, even for Fat White!

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 1:55 PM | PERMALINK

I'm partly responsible for the fact that this thread has gotten off-topic from the subject of prosecuting abuse at Abu Ghraib, for which I apologize. To help make up for that I'd like to post a few reminders of the circumstance we're talking about in the court-martial case against Maj. Gen. Miller:

An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib childrens wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

I saw a camp for children there, he said. Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp. Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. She was beaten, said al-Baz. I heard her call out, They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the childs father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.

Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.

http://www.sundayherald.com/43796

****

In her [Brig. Gen. Karpinski's] interview with Maj Gen George Fay, she also said intelligence officers had worked out an agreement to hold detainees without keeping records.

The Pentagon has acknowledged holding so-called "ghost detainees" on the basis that they were enemy combatants and therefore not entitled to prisoner of war protections.

Brig Gen Karpinski said US commanders were reluctant to release detainees, an attitude she called "releasophobia".

In her interview, she said Maj Gen Walter Wodjakowski, then the second most senior army general in Iraq, told her in the summer of 2003 not to release more prisoners, even if they were innocent.

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent civilians," she said Maj Gen Wodjakowski told her. "We're winning the war."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4339511.stm

It's not just that people were beaten and abused and humiliated, which is terrible enough, it's that innocent people and children were rounded up in security sweeps and held as a matter of course -- without oversight, without recourse to law, and without any protections or standard of treatment.

Cue the trolls saying Saddam was worse, but being just slightly better than crazed megalomaniacs is neither humane nor lawful nor part of our American spirit or ideals.

cmdicely made the salient point in this matter: one can be factually guilty whether or not the law finds them guilty. We possess reams of photographic evidence and eyewitness testimony that someone is guilty of a crime; of allowing widespread and horrific abuse to go on daily at that prison, apparently as a matter of policy, and not because they were trying to "fight terrorists" as zombie Al so romantically imagines it.

The question is whether the person or persons who authorized it will ever be held responsible.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 1:59 PM | PERMALINK

Fat White Lie: The only freedom of speech they protect is the type that agrees with them.

Right.

The large number of Jewish lawyers that work for the ACLU, along with attorneys from many other ethnic backgrounds, agree with American neo-Nazis.

Your stupidity gets more brazen every day.

Hey, Fat White Lie, why don't you link to proof that any similar conservative group of attorneys has ever sued anyone on behalf of someone whose speech they disagreed with.

Come on, just one just for fun.

Or are you just too stupid to provide proof of your implied conclusion that conservatives constantly fight for the rights of persons whose opinions they oppose?

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 2:00 PM | PERMALINK

So why isn't Miller willing to repeat his previous denial?

Because he has a lawyer and the lawyer told him to shut up.

Posted by: contentious on January 12, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

Damnable trial lawyers - they represent the plaintiffs in civil suits and defendants in criminal cases. I, say, that if you have nothing to hide, then you should represent yourself and never take a fifth, er take the fifth. Miller and Boykin, two peas in a pod. Noble "Christian" Soldiers marching off to war.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

One of the things I can comment on is this notion that officers in the Military Intelligence Corps are just like any other Army officer.

If you've ever spend more than a day in the military, and had to deal with staff officers, it would behoove you to remember that an Infantry or Artillery branch officer is a completely different animal than his Chemical Corps, Finance Corps, or MI Corps compatriots.

I'm speaking in broad generalizations, but that patch on their left lapel means something. For example, Military Intelligence Corps officers are, by and large, bureaucrats not leaders. Very few, except for the ones that transferred from a combat arms branch into the MI branch, have real leadership experience.

MI corps 2LTs and LTs get leadership experience when they go to tactical units and when they end up serving as S2 for a combat arms battalion--but by and large they never serve in those critical positions and get to know the way the Army works. They are more likely to clash with NCOs and less likely to extend their service past their initial obligation. An MI Captain has to wait in line for company command and then sees a gamut of different jobs--staff work is more likely than command. When they talk about the exodus of Captains in the Army, the rates for MI officers leaving are very high. The jobs suck. When you think of a sucky job, think S3.

And, by and large, they are cutthroat with one another. They all know each other, they compete with one another and they know that they have to step over bodies to move up. Competition is severe. Few make it to major and fewer still see LTC. The chances one will see anything past Colonel is remote. The highest they could ever expect to go is LTG.

For Pappas and Miller to be at odds at this point has rendered the entire fraternity of O-6 and above MI officers to be terrified of the outcome. MG Barbara Fast is sitting at Fort Huachuca and she has to be thinking about who to turn in her retirement papers to.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

MG Barbara Fast is not sitting around here at Ft Huachuca - She is in charge of a much needed "sidewinder" and western diamond back census. She is a little perturbed that they will not allow her to conduct the survey from the right seat in a Mohawk - so she must "dirty boot" the project.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Peas?

There is an old European story about an enlisted man who is put through the ringer by his commanding officer. One of the things the officer makes the enlisted man do is go on an all peas diet. The officer is also fucking the enlisted man's wife. The story was made into a movie, Woyzeck, with Klaus Kinski as the titled character. I think the wife was murdered by the enlisted man when her affair was found out.

There are some/many/a lot of true stories like this in some/many/ a lot of militaries, or so I have read. The most recent case involved all officers and it occurred here in the US. The commanding officer was fucking some/many/ a lot of his subordinate officers wives. I only know about it because the commander was caught, but could all/ most/ a majority or only some/a few officers withstand scrutiny of their treatment of underlings without also being found guilty of such malfeasance?

Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

"The sue to deny parental rights of educational and medical oversight of their children."

Obviously, the ACLU must have sued Fat White Shithead's parents. This would explain his comical malapropism and near complete ignorance of the English language.

And, btw, what is a "second hand" citizen? Is it one we bought from another country? Is that where we got Fat White Shithead, troll second class?

Posted by: solar on January 12, 2006 at 2:44 PM | PERMALINK

> Don't even start with the ACLU protects freedom
> of speech and fundamental American values.

Hey, as a card-carrying ACLUer I want you all to
know that I am *totally* in favor of stripping
Fat White Guy of all his civil rights.

In fact, I want to strip him of more than that. I say that
all us good liberals stick him naked in a cage in the public
square and then stand around throwing rocks at him as he squeals.

Nice image, huh?

Any takers? :)

Of course, we realize, being psychologically astute
as liberals tend to be, that we're only doing FWG the
greatest of favors by confirming to him what is in truth
one of his most cherished masturbatory fantasies :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

Hostile,

Perhaps you should do some research into Woyseck - It was partially written in the 1830s by Georg Buchner. Buchner was a radical, who wrote of peasant revolts.
Woyseck, the play, was finally completed some 40 years after Buchner's untimely death. As his writing was incomplete, the author had to surmise what Buchner intended.
In the play Woyseck is a servant for a Regimental Commander. However, he earns extra pay by allowing a Doctor to perform experiments upon him. The officer did have an affair with his wife. It was not forced upon her. Woyseck did kill his wife and drowned himself.
The movie, you referred to, was adapted by Werner Herzog and Klaus Kinski, as usual, was chilling as Woyseck.

However, to use this as a broad brush in which to smear the military is, once again, despicable.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on January 12, 2006 at 3:58 PM | PERMALINK

thethirdPaul gets a "hear, hear!"

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 4:06 PM | PERMALINK

That fellow 'stupid git' is pretty good, too.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

I say that all us good liberals stick him naked in a cage in the public square

we're only doing FWG the greatest of favors by confirming to him what is in truth one of his most cherished masturbatory fantasies :)

Aaiiieeee!!! Horrible...imagery...too much for...delicate sensibilities....

...can't see...heartbeat irregular...so weak...must stay consh...con....

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

I saw the movie twenty-five years ago. Forgive me if I have not recalled the details properly or provided a googled synopsis. The point I wanted to make is authority will abuse anyone who serves it, making them Woysecks, which I suspect ... (insert generalized disparaging remarks).

Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

insert generalized disparaging remarks

You're not even worth that anymore.

It ought to terrify you, Hostile, that thethirdPaul was able to post such a concise and detailed debunking of your ridiculous premise.

He is, after all, a former member, like myself, of that great American killing machine, Murder Incorporated, the US Army. Shall he and I report to the Hague for our court martials?

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 12, 2006 at 4:22 PM | PERMALINK

Since I consider you both to be Woysecks, no.

Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

Shall he and I report to the Hague for our court martials?

It's true that t-rex's like myself have also often been unfairly denigrated as killing machines. Eat a few measly Triceratopses and pretty soon everybody's a critic. But the truth is that we were simply defending the biosphere from being totally stripped of plant life by those bastard herbivores. I mean, have you ever seen an Apatosaurus? They're like two miles long! Imagine the daffodils something like that could put away in a day.

Truth be told, we were actually the first environmentalists. Hard to believe given all the propaganda isn't it? Tell me about it!

Sometimes things just need defending, and that's not wrong. Whether it's a military defending a nation or police defending a community or a mother defending her baby t-rex -- all of these are a necessary part of life. It's true that authoritarian structures tend toward abuse, but anarchy often just paves the way for even less palatable authoritarian structures to emerge (see: Ban, Tali). So you focus on making the best hierarchical organization you can get, imbuing it with ideals and restraints and a code of justice. Even a terrible lizard like myself can see the necessity in that.

Besides, if the Pale Rider is in the Hague - who will wash our bottles for us?

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 4:50 PM | PERMALINK

3rd Paul:

Berg's opera Woyszek is amazing, too. They just produced it at the Met this season.

Despite the fact that 12-tone composition (Berge was a student of Schoenberg) is something of a dead letter these days, the haunting expressionism of that score sounds all the right emotional chords, unrelated as they might be to triadic harmony.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

One doesn't assert Article 31 rights (same as 5th Amendment against self-incrimination) lightly--it is patently ridiculous to argue that your client asserted his Art 31 rights because he was tired of answering questions. You assert them because the answer might tend to incriminate you. It is a BIG DEAL for a general officer to assert Article 31 rights in a legal proceeding. Especially after a subordinate has been given immunity to testify on the matter. Stay tuned.
--Former JAG

Posted by: Viking on January 12, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

trex:

Great post :)

Truth is, Hobbes was right. Anarchy is humankind's worse enemy.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 4:57 PM | PERMALINK

worse = worst

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks Bob. I knew a Hobbes once, a Rex who used to scavenge remains in the forest down by the mouth of the Great River. Nasty, brutish little guy.

And short.

Posted by: trex on January 12, 2006 at 5:12 PM | PERMALINK

So you still have civil liberties and being in the military or other government service does not make you a second hand citizen with no rights..
Posted by: Fat White Guy

yeah, but he has already answered the question, so he can't play mum now ...

as for 2nd class citizen ... we're already treating this pigshit WAY better than the innocent iraqis and afghanis sitting in gitmo with no evidence that they're terrorists except for their skin tone.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

trex:

Bet he lived alone, too :)

Hehe, I like Slothrop's family's law firm in Gravity's Rainbow: Salieri, Poore, Nash, DeBrutus and Short.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on January 12, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

thethirdPaul was able to post such a concise and detailed debunking of your ridiculous premise.

Which premise was that? thethirdPaul did summarize the plot of the story with more detail, but I fail to see where he even addressed any theme I was making, which was about being a tool of men like Maj. Gen. Miller. The poor soldiers on trial for abusing or torturing prisoners have probably never heard of Woyseck, but I bet they now know Maj. Gen. Miller has buggered them. Still, they acted out the violence against helpless prisoners and should be prevented from doing so in future.

I have to admit being a little irritated with your parody of an indignant veteran, who can find no wrong with your fraternity of brother soldiers. It only helps people like Maj. Gen. Miller, who, it should be pointed out, do not prevent our society from devolving into anarchy in any way.

This is not our first time having conflicting different points of view, yet you verbally abuse me without even answering my questions.

Pale Rider said:

They may be too concerned with their own careers

My unanswered question:

Is that a many, most, a majority who trade their humanity for career goals, or is it countable, limited, or just a few who order enlisted men/women to forsake their humanity?



Posted by: Hostile on January 12, 2006 at 8:44 PM | PERMALINK

Is that a many, most, a majority who trade their humanity for career goals, or is it countable, limited, or just a few who order enlisted men/women to forsake their humanity?

Posted by: Hostile

It is rare that anybody in the military orders anyone to perform an illegal act let alone forsake their humanity. So if you have any real proof other than the stupid and vile trash you spew from your mouth bring it on. The military does not like illegal behavior any more than anyone else. When the military finds it. They punish it. So crawl back under your rock. Where insects like you belong.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on January 12, 2006 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

"When the military finds it. They punish it. So crawl back under your rock. Where insects like you belong."

Fat White Shithead demonstrates that English is not his native language. Blame NAFTA or the ACLU. Can't you and hostile get a room in whatever country you are from?

Posted by: solar on January 13, 2006 at 12:40 AM | PERMALINK

Can't you and hostile get a room in whatever country you are from?

A) I'm not sure if they have hotel rooms in Fatsghanistan.

B) What FWG doesn't get is that Hostile doesn't believe in having organizations that specialize in taking human lives. It's not that he's complaining about "illegal" actions in the military but that he just doesn't believe that killing per se is moral, a legitimate position which is part of a fine tradition that includes Jains, some Buddhists, Cathars, Quakers, and Amish, among others.

I might also add that if FWG doesn't think the military ever asks people to forsake their humanity, then he might want to talk to a couple of Vietnam vets I know who are struggling with that very issue.

Posted by: trex on January 13, 2006 at 12:52 AM | PERMALINK

It is rare that anybody in the military orders anyone to perform an illegal act let alone forsake their humanity. ... The military does not like illegal behavior any more than anyone else. When the military finds it. They punish it.
Posted by: Fat White Guy

Is this retard for real???? what armed forces is he thinking of???

Posted by: Nads on January 13, 2006 at 1:43 AM | PERMALINK

Is this retard for real???? what armed forces is he thinking of???

Posted by: Nads on January 13, 2006 at 1:43 AM | PERMALINK

So the military commonly commits illegal behaviour?

Support the troops, Democrat style.

Posted by: McAristotle on January 13, 2006 at 1:50 AM | PERMALINK

So the military commonly commits illegal behaviour?
Support the troops, Democrat style.
Posted by: McAristotle

first, there is a world of difference between the ridiculously naive fat cracker sentiment that the military "rarely" commits illegal behavior, and your asinine assertion that it does so "commonly." ... but then, you aren't that bright, so I understand your confusion.

second ... I support the troops when they are defending this country ...

when they are pawns of corrupt politicians, immoral deserters playing CIC, war profiteering VPs, and criminal defense secretaries ... well, then I feel sorry for them. they're dying for essentially nothing, and that likely isn't what they signed up for.

clap louder, good german ... soon you won't be able to smell the burning flesh.

Posted by: Nads on January 13, 2006 at 2:25 AM | PERMALINK

"So the military commonly commits illegal behaviour?

Support the troops, Democrat style."

So a foreign troll wants to make pronouncements on how much and how Americans should support our own military? Fuck right off, McAsshole.

Posted by: solar on January 13, 2006 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

McAnustotle: So the military commonly commits illegal behaviour?

So, McAnus commonly commits defamation and mendacity.

McKissingBush'sAnus is a more accurate nom de guerre for you.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 13, 2006 at 1:54 PM | PERMALINK

Fat White Lie: When the military finds it. They punish it.

So, why didn't they punish Kerry for all those misdeeds that the Swift Boat Vets accused him of?

This means that:

1) You are lying when you say the military punishes illegal activity when they find it;

2) The Swift Boat Vets were lying when you said that Kerry committed illegalities and you're equally culpable for aiding and abetting those liars;

3) You are lying about #1 and the Swift Boat Vets were lying about #2 and you are culpable all over the place.

But, then, that's why you are "Fat White Lie".

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 13, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

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