Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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January 12, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

NATIONAL SECURITY....Laura Donohue provides an excellent reason to believe the Patriot Act needs a bit of tweaking before it's reauthorized. It's not that it's too tough on terrorism, it's just the opposite:

Many Americans might approve of data mining to find terrorists. But not all of the inquiries necessarily relate to terrorism. The Patriot Act allows law enforcement officers to get "sneak and peek" warrants to search a home for any suspected crime and to wait months or even years to tell the owner they were there. Last July, the Justice Department told the House Judiciary Committee that only 12% of the 153 "sneak and peek" warrants it received were related to terrorism investigations.

Meanwhile, Jonah Goldberg, who believes that slippery slopes are the merest hooey, explains why he thinks all the recent concern over national security abuses is overblown:

At first, I thought this NSA story was a big deal on the merits, and I wrote that Bush should have asked to fix the law rather than work his way around it....Now I'm beginning to think this is just the latest in anti-Bush hype. The New York Times, which launched this "scandal," remains at journalistic DEFCON 1, releasing a stream of articles, editorials and Op-Ed articles as if the nation were up in arms over what some hotter heads believe to be an impeachable offense.

....Now, forgive me for not loading up my car with bottled water and canned goods and heading off into the hills to fight with the partisans, but I just don't see what the big deal is.

Translation: I used to think the critics were right, but then I realized this might actually do some damage to the Republican cause. So I changed my mind.

Kevin Drum 11:37 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (77)

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Comments

Doonesbury straw poll:

Whenever President Bush defends a policy, he always sets up a straw man as the alternative, as if there were only two possible options.

What has been your favorite false choice?

Launching a bold, history-changing, preemptive strike against Iraq vs. waiting until a mushroom cloud appears over America.
Decisively defeating the terrorists in Iraq vs. having to fight them in our own country.
Persevering in Iraq until victory is achieved vs. a sniveling, cowardly, white-flag surrender.

Posted by: Gore/Obama '08 on January 12, 2006 at 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

You know that Doughy Pantload got his start by listening to the Linda Tripp/Monica Lewinsky tapes w/his mother, don't you?

If "Red State America" really got to know any of their fellow travelers in the media (Goldberg, Kristol, et al.) they would trun blue in a heartbeat. Talk about your soft, powdered and pampered elites with no clue about how real Americans live.

Posted by: brewmn on January 12, 2006 at 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

Be careful with the debate.

Posted by: Gore/Obama '08 on January 12, 2006 at 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Every excerpt from Jonah should end the same way:

"Snorts, farts, and throws confetti like Rip Taylor."

(Shamelessly stolen from the brilliant Roy Edroso at alicublog.)

Posted by: Hoyt Pollard on January 12, 2006 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

The Goldberg piece was a mea culpa for believing that the NY Times actually might be on to something. Then he learned that it was the same old "sky is falling" argument.

" Talk about your soft, powdered and pampered elites with no clue about how real Americans live."

The blue staters need to think about reproducing. They don't have any kids and red staters are breeding a new generation that doesn't read the NY Times.

Pretty funny. Taranto at the WSJ calls it "the Roe effect." Aborting all those potential Kerry voters.

Posted by: Mike K on January 12, 2006 at 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

thanks, kevin, for such an accurate translation! (sarcasm alert) Good thing that I can actually read because when I checked out the article it sure seemed different than your translation. For someone who often criticizes others for oversimplifying complex issues this sure takes juevos.

Posted by: Jerry on January 12, 2006 at 11:53 AM | PERMALINK

It's not that it's too tough on terrorism, it's just the opposite:

This statement appears to be unintentionally misleading and poorly phrased. What is the "opposite" of being "too tough on terrorism?" The most straightforward answer is being too lenient on terrorism - of course that isnt the point of the article linked at all.

Its not that its too tough on terrorism, it is that it goes too far in investigations that have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism.

Posted by: Catch 22 on January 12, 2006 at 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

Mike K, your stupid little argument only works if political outlook is 100 percent inherited. Luckily, red staters are very good at alienating their own sensitive and intelligent children and sending them fleeing to the blue states. So as long as the red states continue to suck, we'll have an ample supply of new recruits. So thanks for being assholes to your smart kids, red states!

Posted by: Hank Scorpio on January 12, 2006 at 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

Reminds me of a button I once saw:

That's OK--I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway!
Posted by: Jon Karak on January 12, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

Bush apologists are hillarious.

Posted by: cleek on January 12, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

The blue staters need to think about reproducing. They don't have any kids.

Christ, we're the only grownups in this debate. Attempt to shepherd the Republican kindergarten is enough work without breeding too.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

The frequency with which the Patroit Act has been used for non-terrorist related activities is reason enough to refuse to renew the bill. Something that's mis-used 88% of the time is just plain bad law.

Posted by: beb on January 12, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

except that it seems clear to me that it can only help Republicans. thus that can't have been the motivation for Goldberg's change of heart (assuming he shares my view).

Posted by: Nathan on January 12, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

Good thing Mike K has no kids, last thing we need is his worthless seed reproducing more automaton idiots who believe in their daddy-authority figures.

Posted by: MikeKay on January 12, 2006 at 12:01 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh, Johah, you're so fine, you're so fine, you blow my mind"

Thanks to Mike K for raising a daughter who is in the FBI - Now, don't all of you libs feel safer?

Posted by: Lucien G on January 12, 2006 at 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks to the LA Times signing him up as one of its regular stable of columnists, everyone is now paying scads more attention to this little weasel. Wish he'd get back in the whale's belly where he belongs.

Posted by: Jim Strain on January 12, 2006 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

It's as predictable as clockwork.

Someone on the right opens their mouth without the Bush filter firmly in place, and the unadulterated truth starts to pour out.

Left wing bloggers point out the admission, and then everybody on the right beats on the truth teller with hammer and tongs.

Truth teller then comes round to the realization very publicly that, yes, he had thought that Bush may have made a mistake, but he was dreadfully wrong.

Maybe the solution is for the left to give these guys more rope to hang themselves with? I just don't know.

Posted by: frankly0 on January 12, 2006 at 12:28 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K:

Apart from the fact that your comment is an asinine non sequitur (have your mother or your warden explain that term to you), your reference to Taranto's "Kerry Effect" comment, while no doubt appearing clever to you and the rest of the right-wing troglodytes, ignores the inconvenient fact the abortion rates are higher in red states than blue, in spite of the incredibly restrictive abortion regulations in place in many of those states.

Posted by: brewmn on January 12, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

Can anybody tell me why anyone takes Jonah Goldberg the slightest bit seriously. He's like Ann Coulter without a brain, and he has a very weird "Mommy" complex going on. Its all very odd.

Posted by: Doug-E-Fresh on January 12, 2006 at 12:46 PM | PERMALINK

brewmn:

you're simply wrong -- look at the "rate per thousand women"...as we all know, it's heavily urban areas that have the highest rates.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005099.html

Posted by: Nathan on January 12, 2006 at 12:50 PM | PERMALINK

The blue staters need to think about reproducing. They don't have any kids and red staters are breeding a new generation that doesn't read the NY Times.

Yeah, it's a shame all those blue states like California and New York are so sparsely populated. Meanwhile, red states like Wyoming and Utah are hip-deep in people.

Pretty funny. Taranto at the WSJ calls it "the Roe effect." Aborting all those potential Kerry voters.

Another shame - abortions only occur in blue states! And they're aborting people with the ability to grow to age 18, and then travel back in time to vote in the 2004 election!

You are pretty funny, Mike K.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on January 12, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

Unfortunately frankly0, that rope is likely to hang us all.

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus on January 12, 2006 at 1:04 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone to support a movement to write letters to Andrew Martinez of LA Times asking him to replace the head lice Jonah Goldberg with Kevin Drum?

Posted by: lib on January 12, 2006 at 1:06 PM | PERMALINK

Can anybody tell me why anyone takes Jonah Goldberg the slightest bit seriously. He's like Ann Coulter without a brain, and he has a very weird "Mommy" complex going on. Its all very odd.

Actually, it's more that Goldberg is Ann Coulter without a penis.

Posted by: Stefan on January 12, 2006 at 1:08 PM | PERMALINK

Ann Coulter has a brain? Where?

Posted by: craigie on January 12, 2006 at 1:11 PM | PERMALINK

Here's what's funny about people like Goldberg, they say stuff like this (stolen from Mike's post above):

" Talk about your soft, powdered and pampered elites with no clue about how real Americans live."

So you look up their background and find stuff like this:

On Mom: Her career started at the Washington Post in 1957 followed by a year working at the Democratic National Committee in 1960. She became a consultant to the White House staff under President Kennedy in 1961 for two years. She set up Cummings and Associates in 1963.

Goldberg claimed to friends that she had an affair with Lyndon Johnson while working in the White House. After Goldberg threatened Random House with a libel suit, a Washington Post writer claimed he and others overheard her bragging about an affair with Vice President Hubert Humphrey as well.

During the 1972 presidential campaign she joined the press corps covering candidate George McGovern, claiming to be a reporter for the Women's News Service, an affiliate of NANA. In fact, she was paid $1000 a week by Richard Nixon operative Murray Chotiner for regular reports about happenings on the campaign trail. She said "They were looking for really dirty stuff...Who was sleeping with who, what the Secret Service men were doing with the stewardesses, who was smoking pot on the plane--that sort of thing."

Goldberg set up her own literary agency in 1972.
She published her first book, Purr Baby Purr, in 1970, which was a critique of feminism. Goldberg started writing a column called "Footlights of Broadway", syndicated by NANA. Goldberg published her first novel ,Friends in High Places cowritten with Sondra Robinson, in 1979. Her first solo novel Madame Cleo's Girls, a story of three call girls, was published in 1992, followed by People Will Talk in 1994. Goldberg has also been a ghostwriter of, among other works, Maureen Dean's (wife of Watergate figure John Dean) steamy novel Washington Wives

On Dad: Goldberg's father, Sid Goldberg, was an editor at the news syndicate North American Newspaper Alliance in New York City.

On Jonah: Goldberg graduated in 1991 from Goucher College in Baltimore, Maryland. (He served on the colleges Board of Trustees from 1991 until 1994). He has written, produced, and edited two documentaries, Gargoyles: Guardians of the Gate [1], and Notre Dame: Witness to History. He also spent a year working as an English teacher in Prague, Czech Republic.

So let's see, Jonah grew up as the child of a New York publishing baron and a Washington insider. He went to an elite (but second rate) DC area college and now lives in New York. So where exactly does he claim to have derived this great insight into the realities of the world of the working class and the heartland?

Posted by: Doug-E-Fresh on January 12, 2006 at 1:11 PM | PERMALINK

as we all know, it's heavily urban areas that have the highest rates.

Urban wimmen are big old sluts, no doubt about it.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 1:12 PM | PERMALINK

Ann Coulter has a brain? Where?

She thinks with the wrong head, as the vulgar saying goes.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 1:13 PM | PERMALINK

Mrs. Goldberg sounds sorta like Cartmans mother on 'South Park'.

Posted by: WhoSays on January 12, 2006 at 1:19 PM | PERMALINK

Urban wimmen are big old sluts, no doubt about it.

Who you callin' big?

Posted by: Urban wimmen on January 12, 2006 at 1:22 PM | PERMALINK

UW: I like you in those shoes, BTW.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

Urban wimmen are big old sluts, no doubt about it.

I sense the return of the Lesbian Cheerleaders

Posted by: craigie on January 12, 2006 at 1:24 PM | PERMALINK

You wish.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 1:25 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K: The blue staters need to think about reproducing. They don't have any kids and red staters are breeding a new generation that doesn't read the NY Times.

Mike K - the joke that keeps on giving.

Bush: 43% approval.

Ten points below Clinton's second-term worst polling.

And yet another GOP Senator ready to bite the dust: Conrad Burns.

If you weren't sterile in both mind and body, you could start to stem the tide of reversal for the GOP by f*cking like a bunny Mikey.

Too bad.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 1:27 PM | PERMALINK

....Now, forgive me for not loading up my car with bottled water and canned goods and heading off into the hills to fight with the partisans...

Ummm...we already knew that about Jonah. He's in favor of others fighting with the partisans. He's got a job, kids, etc.

Posted by: sal on January 12, 2006 at 1:29 PM | PERMALINK

shorter Goldberg: "It's just a third rate burglery"

Posted by: Martin on January 12, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

And now this is the same Jonah Goldberg who thought a president who lied about his sex life committed an impeachable offense?

Yeah, right. This guy really has thought through his positions in life, hasn't he?

Dipshit...

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on January 12, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan: that was pretty darn funny.

shortstop: it's actually urban minority women....repeat abortions being a major contributor to the urban rate.

However, I will note that even racially homogenous blue-state Vermont has 8 times the abortion rate of racially homogenous red-state Wyoming.

Posted by: Nathan on January 12, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

Nathan: it's actually urban minority women....repeat abortions being a major contributor to the urban rate.

I have to get back to work...take it away, guys.

Posted by: shortstop on January 12, 2006 at 1:46 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop:

those numbers have been well documented...including by Kevin.

Posted by: Nathan on January 12, 2006 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Ann Coulter has a brain? Where?

in her neck. you can see it in profile.

Posted by: cleek on January 12, 2006 at 1:48 PM | PERMALINK

Doug-E-Fresh,
"So where exactly does he claim to have derived this great insight into the realities of the world of the working class and the heartland?"

You know, this reminds me of when Ann Coulter accused Tom Tomorrow of being an un-American liberal elitist. I really enjoyed his response:

"But--I can't resist pointing out that Ann Coulter grew up in the wealthy, elite community of New Canaan, Connecticut (average household income: $243,000). By contrast, I grew up in Iowa, Georgia, and Arkansas, in financial conditions which ranged over the years from lower middle class to outright poverty. This is where I'm from, this is where my family still lives. (Hey Ann--any of your siblings ever live in a double wide? ) As an adult, I've taken more meandering road trips up and down and across this country and back again than I can even remember. (Hey Ann--you ever travel cross-country on a Greyhound bus?) In short: gosh, I get tired of these conservative elitists lecturing me about "real" Americans."

But hey, in the minds of Goldberg and Coulter and their ilk, being a pampered upper-class twit is exactly the equivalent of being a textile worker in South Carolina, or something.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on January 12, 2006 at 1:59 PM | PERMALINK

MJ, just proves its easy to be a Conservative "anti-elitist" when you're wealthy, white and part of the elite.

Posted by: Doug-E-Fresh on January 12, 2006 at 2:02 PM | PERMALINK

As the facts about the NSA program come out, it becomes apparent that they were doing exactly what we want them to do, and that no warrant was required to do it. No court has ever held that a search warrant is required for foreign intelligence gathering.

Your point about the sneak-and-peak warrants being used for garden variety criminal investigations is well taken, however. Spying on AQ and its operatives and contacts in the US is one thing; collecting evidence in drug and mob cases is another.

Posted by: DBL on January 12, 2006 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

If you had any doubts at all that conservatives are just lip-service servants of morality and justice, rather than self-centered, self-aggrandizing, and self-righteous pedantics who like to watch people be executed for grins, then read this.

You will then have no doubts at all that the Bush administration not only ordered torture and spying on ordinary Americans with no terrorists links (which we should have known after the false claims of Iraqi links to terrorism), but did so with complete giddiness and joy.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

"Mike K:
Apart from the fact that your comment is an asinine non sequitur (have your mother or your warden explain that term to you), your reference to Taranto's "Kerry Effect" comment,"

It's actually "Roe effect." They have courses for those with reading difficulty. Probably even have student loans for those who have no high school diploma.

" while no doubt appearing clever to you and the rest of the right-wing troglodytes, ignores the inconvenient fact the abortion rates are higher in red states than blue, in spite of the incredibly restrictive abortion regulations in place in many of those states.

Posted by: brewmn"

Sorry. Not true. I really do think a remedial reading course would be helpful.

Let me know how you make out.

I do have kids, as someone helpfully pointed out, as I decided that somebody had better raise some tax payers. Thanks for the good wishes. You might even get to meet my FBI agent daughter sometime.

Just kidding.

Posted by: Mike K on January 12, 2006 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

Nathan,

Of course the rates are lower in Wyoming - They have far more cattle and sheep to mess around with.

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

....Now, forgive me for not loading up my car with bottled water and canned goods and heading off into the hills to fight with the partisans...

Goldberg would have been more accurate if he had written "now, forgive me for not loading up the Jitney with Evian and Cheetohs and heading off into the Hamptons to cower under my bed, whimpering like a baby...."

Posted by: Stefan on January 12, 2006 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

those numbers have been well documented...including by Kevin.

Yes, but the topic of the thread is that Jonah Goldgerb was been well documented to be a tool.

Posted by: ChrisS on January 12, 2006 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

Jonah Goldgerb

Let's hear it for dyslexia!

Posted by: ChrisS on January 12, 2006 at 2:34 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K: They have courses for those with reading difficulty.

Which you obviously need and have never taken.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

"Let's hear it for dyslexia"

As Bush read the news that this is the Year of the Dog", he spoke out, "Finally, Lord, our time has come"

Posted by: stupid git on January 12, 2006 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Are you really shocked to learn that Jonah Goldberg is not troubled by NSA spying and eavesdropping on people's telephone calls without a warrant? His career was built on illegally taped telephone calls. He is his mother's son you know.

Posted by: aline on January 12, 2006 at 2:58 PM | PERMALINK

"Let's hear it for dyslexia"

Perhaps you should join DAM - Mothers Against Dyslexia

Posted by: Mac on January 12, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

"Mike K: They have courses for those with reading difficulty.

Which you obviously need and have never taken.

Posted by: Advocate for God "

This juvenile retort reminds me of the exchange between Gable and Ward Bond, the bus driver, in "It Happened One Night."

Gable keeps telling him why the seat is his. The bus driver keeps replying "Oh yeah ?"

Finally Gable says "Ya got me ! Yeah !"

Advocate; Ya got me! What a wit !

I'll sign right up. Can we sit together ?

Posted by: Mike K on January 12, 2006 at 3:39 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K: This juvenile retort reminds me of the exchange between Gable and Ward Bond, the bus driver, in "It Happened One Night."

Praise for juvenility from the king of juvenility.

I'm honored.

Posted by: Advocate for God on January 12, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

One of my wishes for 2006 is that no one would pay any attention to what Jonah Goldberg and his ilk say anymore.

Posted by: Jame on January 12, 2006 at 4:35 PM | PERMALINK

Goldberg is to truth as Midnight Lace is to shit.

As my Jewish grandfather would say in proper yiddish...PUTZ

Posted by: flatrock goo ball on January 12, 2006 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINK

you're simply wrong -- look at the "rate per thousand women"...as we all know, it's heavily urban areas that have the highest rates.
Posted by: Nathan

where do you think the abortion clinics are? where do you think the rural red state women go when they need abortions? where do you think there are fewer abortion clinic bombers and terrorists?

show stats regarding abortion with respect to state of residency if you insist on trying to make this point.

Posted by: Nads on January 12, 2006 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/NSA_documents_show_massive_spy_operation_0110.html

Yup, the NSA sure is protecting us from terrorists.

Folks,

Trust me, the cat is out of the bag, all kinds of spying is occurring on US citizens everywhere. Huge servers are dedicated to sifting masses of data, looking for key words like:

peace is more than the absence of war

war is insane

America's tax-cuts to the rich are a gross injustice to the working poor (many of whom have had their IRS earned-income tax credits frozen)

etc.

Credit card bills, student loans, phone calls, emails, text-messaging, street conversations, video rental history, library lending records, paystubbs, retirement portfolios, stock portfolios, bank accounts, employment history, medical records, marriage/divorce records, tax records,etc. ALL are up for sale in this brave new world!

Posted by: Tom Nicholson on January 12, 2006 at 6:36 PM | PERMALINK

So Jonah thinks Bush should "work his way around the law" instead of trying to "fix it"? Interesting judicial philosophy, wouldn't you say? (I suspect the real reason for his change of heart is that his mother gave him a tinkle on the phpne, but with that family you never know.)

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on January 12, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know about the rest of your audience, but for me refuting jonah goldberg is like flogging a dead horse: watching it done isn't very interesting.

Posted by: supersaurus on January 12, 2006 at 7:20 PM | PERMALINK

Note also that Goldberg's argument, if one can dignify it with that phrase, doesn't include a single, solitary reason why we shouldn't incorporate into any such system the elementary safeguards that everyone's talking about to make sure the government doesn't quietly expand its warrantless spying efforts to include political enemies. (Without which, of course, President Hillary will be just as free to use it against HER political enemies as President Bush is.)

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on January 12, 2006 at 7:22 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Supersaurus, it's a dirty job but SOMEBODY'S got to do it.

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on January 12, 2006 at 7:27 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K: You do realize, don't you, that Kansas (The reddest of the red states) is where anyone needing a late-term therapeutic abortion goes, don't you? That's right...Wichita!

Posted by: Global Citizen on January 12, 2006 at 8:13 PM | PERMALINK

"Mike K: You do realize, don't you, that Kansas (The reddest of the red states) is where anyone needing a late-term therapeutic abortion goes, don't you? That's right...Wichita!

Posted by: Global Citizen"

I think that's the guy who's bragged he's done 50,000 late term abortions. Great record. I hope he's never read Dante.

Posted by: Mike-K on January 12, 2006 at 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

classic example of what a vacuum Jonah has where his brain should be. He has a gut feeling based on a factual story, and WITHOUT THE STORY CHANGING or offering any sort of logical reason he changes his mind. He is a wretched little toadie.

Posted by: secularhuman on January 12, 2006 at 11:51 PM | PERMALINK

The NSA is spying in areas that have nothing to do with terrorism, someone says. The fear of mushroom clouds over America is only an administration scare tactic, another says.The NSA, of course, can't really say what it is doing, because doing so would drastically degrade the effectiveness of whatever it is.

I kind of doubt that the first terrorist mushroom cloud does appear over a U.S. city. We are, in our bumbling way, a fairly tough target, plus the perpetrator would have to worry about shotgun style mass nuclear annihilation of all popular terrorist hiding spots. You don't think Dubya would do it? I do. So do all terrorists and states worried they are seen as hiding areas.

No, the first really bad instance of a WMD put into practice may take as much as a dozen years to come about, and will probably be someplace like Paris or Athens. Just a prediction, because I'm in a Nostradamus frame of mind.

Posted by: Michael L. Cook on January 13, 2006 at 12:24 AM | PERMALINK

fairly tough target, plus the perpetrator would have to worry about shotgun style mass nuclear annihilation of all popular terrorist hiding spots.

Posted by: Michael L. Cook on January 13, 2006 at 12:24 AM | PERMALINK

What is they hid in a banlieu in Paris?

Democrats. It is the humane thing to rely on the carried out threat of nuclear genocide to prevent terrorism.

Posted by: Mcaristotle on January 13, 2006 at 1:52 AM | PERMALINK

Exactly what the hell does that have to do with the question of whether we ought to have some independent judicial observers incorporated into the system to make sure that the government isn't using surveillance for purposes having absolutely nothing to do with tracking down possible terrorists? That is, that we ought to have something like FISA? (With some modifications to deal with the obvious new problems produced by data mining -- some of which, in fact, have been publicly suggested already by none other than Adm. Poindexter. When one of the two chief Iran-Contra defendants comes across as a civil libertarian by comparison with our current leaders, you KNOW you've got trouble.)

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on January 13, 2006 at 3:50 AM | PERMALINK

I do have kids, as someone helpfully pointed out, as I decided that somebody had better raise some tax payers.

I'd like to see DNA tests proving it, since you appear to be a dickless fuckpig. Did your 'daughter' enter government service to be like her real dad, the mailman?

Posted by: ahem on January 13, 2006 at 7:01 AM | PERMALINK

It is the humane thing to rely on the carried out threat of nuclear geno---

"Can we get a clean up team? There's a puddle of piss surrounding McAsstotle. Get him some Depends while you're at it."

Posted by: ahem on January 13, 2006 at 7:03 AM | PERMALINK

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