This means that all the uneducated people are finally going with the impulsive emotional "feel" of what should be done, rather than the more logical idea of what has to be done. Republicans shoudl worry, since they own a lot of the less educated populace. But democrats have nothing to gloat about. If they win the next election series, they will inherit the whirlwind. Best to leave this one to the idiots in charge right now.

Education is hard, hard work.

For those with a high school education or less, the military is a fairly important employment option, but it's not as attractive while we're in Iraq.

Hmmm, I wonder if the uneducated (or rather, less credentialed) are more likely to have family members in the military than the more educated. If its your son or niece who's on patrol in Baghdad you might have a different perspective than someone who gets their military knowledge from The New Republic editorials.

The more educated were never in favor of the war to begin with, but, having been dragged into it, realize that completing the task is now the only way out of Iraq. the more republican leaning people, who tend to be more pro war, and anti intellectual, have always had more to lsoe under bush as it it. I doubt that they now see the light. Had they voted against him to begin with......but no, I forget, their religion demanded an extremist of them.

Same with Vietnam. The so-called "masses" were way ahead of the intelligensia as far as getting out. Most people I personally know (e.g. grew up with) who have gone to Iraq, have not gone to college and came from families who didn't have a parent who went to college--these constitute the people in the most dangerous positions and the bulk of the casualties. I don't have any friends with me in grad school who have a personal connection to anyone in Iraq.

It's not a shock. But then again, it's consistent with results from the last long term "adventure" the U.S. partook in.

As others have said: Who goes to war? Who attends military funerals, gives comfort to grieving widows, sees the blank looks on the faces of children who have lost a parent? Looks like they're getting pretty damned sick of bearing the brunt of this war while the thinking class blathers on about it.

Well, the trouble with the statistic is high school *or* less. As I recall, white voters with a high school education (who are the bedrock of the working class) lean Republican these days, and those with less than high school education lean strongly Democratic. People with undergraduate degrees are split, leaning slightly Republican, and people with advanced degrees lean slightly Democratic.

What I would be curious to see are the numbers for white people with high school educations.

If it becomes clear that Iraq has descended into a civil war I wouldn't be surprised to see the number enter the fifties comfortably (and throw all the rules of American politics overboard in the process). If not the numbers may fluctuate with events on the ground, but I guess that's obvious.

The war was a bad idea, as anyone with a little bit of education feared when we were going into it.

For the rest of us, now that we have had time to study it and become more educated about the war, less of us support it and less of us like what the president has done.

It is not to late to change what goes on in this country and what we do overseas. Let us get rid of this clown and his pupeteers (Chaney, Rumsfeld etc)

Blus: I'd query those statistics you throw about. If memory serves, Republican voters tend to be less educated, with lower income, on the one hand, and highly educated with massive wealth on the other. The inbetween folk are split between the Dems and the Repubs. Then there are the non voters, who foten, were they to vote, woudl identify themselves as Democrats.

Damn high school education made me illiterate. foten=often, of course.

Yes, you would like to tie education in with the Republican "redneck" "beer drinking" "Bush supporting" "barefooted reactionary" "support our troops" "kill everybody in the Middle East" "Torture all prisoners" "Support The Death Penalty" Strangely, it is these of the "great unwashed masses"whose children are being returned in caskets and maimed and scarred in body and mind and who, like in the Vietnam Era,are beginning to question what is this really about. The educated and well to do find other opportunities for their children like King George W. and most of his scurrilous ilk did during Vietnam. Again, they failed to remember the past. They said this was not like Vietnam. Oh No? Reap the whirlwind Georgie Pordgie. It's coming at you now.

Chris,

Republicans shoudl worry, since they own a lot of the less educated populace.

It's the reverse actually.

Exit polls from the 2000 election

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dems . . . Repub
* No H.S. Degree - - - - - - - -59% . . . 39%
* High School Graduate - -48% . . . 49%
* Some College - - - - - - - - - -45% . . . 51%
* College Graduate - - - - - -45% . . . 51%
* Post-Graduate Degree - -52% . . . 44%

If all you have is a high school education, your employment options are limited. The military looms much larger as a potential employer (and source of additional education and training). The highly educated can afford to be more dismissive of the military. If you don't think of yourself as candidates for cannon fodder, you may not worry as much if the President wages an idiotic and incompetent war.

tangoman: you may want to quote from an election where the republican candidate won.

The answer is obvious. There is no way I can dump all my defense stocks this year (unless they eliminate the capital gains tax). I say we stay the course for at least another year.

It's about race and ethnicity. A disproportionate number of people with less than a high school degree are either African American or Latino. And they are staunchly Democratic and they bitterly oppose the war.

This means that all the uneducated people are finally going with the impulsive emotional "feel" of what should be done, rather than the more logical idea of what has to be done. Republicans shoudl worry, since they own a lot of the less educated populace. But democrats have nothing to gloat about. If they win the next election series, they will inherit the whirlwind. Best to leave this one to the idiots in charge right now.

This comment epitomizes why progessive usually do--and should--lose elections. Last time I checked, Republicans don't own more of the "less educated populace" than the Democrats. But with statements like this, I'm surprised that they don't. You don't have to have a college education to know that Iraq was a bad idea from start to current situation.

As a personal bias, I have friends who haven't completed college or even gone to college whom I consider more bright and talented than graduate students I know. Education does not always represent intellectual abilities.

Not what I'd expect either. But then, who's fighting over there? I'd bet there aren't a lot of PhDs.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dems . . . Repub
* No H.S. Degree - - - - - - - -59% . . . 39%
* High School Graduate - -48% . . . 49%
* Some College - - - - - - - - - -45% . . . 51%
* College Graduate - - - - - -45% . . . 51%
* Post-Graduate Degree - -52% . . . 44%

Posted by: TangoMan on January 20, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

They have the bottom and the top in terms of education. I guess this means Dems have more varying levels of education....

Dems are made up of an alliance between the limousine liberals and their pawns, the "unwashed ethnic masses" who vote Dem regardless how badly government interferance has failed them.

See why I think the affirmitive action for disadvantaged minorities only is a political handout...

47% following the West Virginia Miners closely
40% following the situation in Iraq closely
14% following the Alito nomination closely

PRIORITIES!

"Blus: I'd query those statistics you throw about."

I was close enough. See above.

Dems are made up of an alliance between the limousine liberals and their pawns, the "unwashed ethnic masses" who vote Dem regardless how badly government interferance has failed them.

And Democrats are the ones who are called elitist? As someone this jack-a** would probably consider part of the "unwashed ethnic masses", I'd say as a product of public education, I wouldn't be where I am without it. I also know people who receive S.S. survivor benefits and people who receive S.S. disability benefits from circumstances beyond their control. Before these broadsides against the uneducated--and hardworking--I'd take a minute or two to talk to some of them.

Maybe most of the college educated never imagine it possible that they would have to be the ones on the ground putting their lives on the line.

Too bad people who obtain college educations can't take some time to revist the "original position". Perhaps the superiority complex would diminish.

Nads:

tangoman: you may want to quote from an election where the republican candidate won.

No problem.

From the 2004 election:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kerry . . . Bush
* No H.S. Degree - - - - - - - -50% . . . 49%
* High School Graduate - -47% . . . 52%
* Some College - - - - - - - - - -46% . . . 54%
* College Graduate - - - - - -46% . . . 52%
* Post-Graduate Degree - -55% . . . 44%

Thanks to Tangoman for the formatting...

Damn all those scientists, doctors, and professors who drive around in their limousines!

Yes, you would like to tie education in with the Republican "redneck" "beer drinking" "Bush supporting" "barefooted reactionary" "support our troops" "kill everybody in the Middle East" "Torture all prisoners" "Support The Death Penalty" Strangely, it is these of the "great unwashed masses"whose children are being returned in caskets

Posted by: murmeister on January 20, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

Why is this guys use of "unwashed" right while mine is wrong just 'cos I said "unwashed ethnic"...

-----------------

scientists, doctors, and professors who drive around in their limousines!

Posted by: Turgidson on January 20, 2006 at 2:50 AM | PERMALINK

They've got the post-grads in general. Not just the PhD's... Doesn't that include Lawyers, MBA's, etc., etc.... I'd say that includes quite a few limousine driving types.

gq,

Here's a good rule of thumb - Democrats don't believe in IQ unless it shows that they're more intelligent than Republicans.

From a Liberal Think-Tank:

From 1992 to 2004 the Democratic party has been losing educated voters.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .1992. . 1996. . 2000. . 2004
High School . . . . . .54%. . 59%. .49%. .47%
Some College . . . . .52%. . 55% . .47%. . 46%
College Grad. . . . . 49%. . 49%. . 47% . .46%
Post Grad. . . . . . . .58%. . 57%. . 54%. . 55%
page 50

Democrats are also losing married couples and capture no more than 45% of that demographic, and of course there's the whole fertility issue.

The problem for the Democratic coalition, is first raw numbers with self indentified liberals accounting for 20% of the electorate compared to 33% who self-identify as conservatives. (page 43) and secondly, the educational divergence which melds the highest and lowest educated demographics together so it's hard to get a cohereht message to the broad middle.

Anyways, I don't want to hi-jack the thread but I wanted to inject some numbers to correct what I thought were faulty generalizations being used to analyze the topic of this post.

Not what I'd expect either. But then, who's fighting over there? I'd bet there aren't a lot of PhDs.

Almost all the enlisted personnel (99%) are high school graduates, and about 10 percent have completed at least two years of college. For officers, 93 percent are college graduates (30 percent for warrant officers, 98 percent for commissioned). Don't know about PhDs.

BTW, in the category of the 48 percent who wanted the troops brought home "as soon as possible," 32 percent favored withdrawal over a year or two, and only 14 percent favored immediate withdrawal.

Some other numbers I "cherry picked" from the poll:

Do you think the war in Iraq has helped the war on terrorism, or has it hurt the war on terrorism?

44 percent: helped
38 percent: hurt

How well is the U.S. military effort in Iraq going?

Very or fairly well: 51 percent
Not too or not at all well: 44 percent

Regardless of your feelings about the original decision to use military force, do you now believe that the U.S. will definitely succeed, probably succeed, probably fail, or definitely fail in establishing a stable democratic government in Iraq?

Definitely or probably succeed: 56 percent
Definitely or probably fail: 34 percent

See? Kind of fun, isn't it?

The trend appears to confirm Lincoln's saying, "You can't fool all the people all the time."

I'm sure you'd find that a disproportionate number of the supporters of the occupation continue to believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or ties to al Qaeda, since you can fool some of the people all the time.

I'd say as a product of public education, I wouldn't be where I am without it.

Posted by: gq on January 20, 2006 at 2:45 AM | PERMALINK

You can have public education without affirmitive action.

tbrosz,

the data you extract would set me at ease if I were a Republican. There is a lot of congruence between the expectations of a majority of the populace and the express intentions of the Bush administration.

Here's a suggestion for Dems.... stop undocumented migration and replace it with a import foreign persons with graduate school degrees legal program.

They are more reliably Democrat than the poor you profess to help.

Plus it would actually be sensible.

How many of the posters have a college degree?
How many have family members (not counting cousins) serving in Iraq? My guess would by 75% + for the former and 10% for the latter. Two of my four nephews have served in Iraq or Afghanistan and a third is two weeks into Marine boot camp.
I certainly hope we are withdrawing troops from Iraq by this summer as this will greatly dimish the chances of any of them getting killed.

McAristotle - Are you still in Iraq or are you doing the recon for the hard targets in Iran? How did those cross border incursions into Syria go? Any actionable intelligence? Rumor has it you were part of the Predator strike in Pakistan. Maybe you should post less and concentrate more on your job.

Maybe you should post less and concentrate more on your job.

Posted by: O'Plato on January 20, 2006 at 4:00 AM | PERMALINK

Yah, I am the Asian outsource branch of the CIA's WMD research group. Its a 'slam dunk' I tell you. They'll dig up those sand colored WMD sooner or later. Might have got Iran and Iraq mixed up though.

I have an ex-nephew-in-law who just got back from Iraq, an army sergeant. Due to his ex-in-law status, I haven't talked with him, but his safety has been very much on my mind in the last year.

"How many of the posters have a college degree? How many have family members (not counting cousins) serving in Iraq? My guess would by 75% + for the former and 10% for the latter."

I have a nephew who is in the 82nd Airborne, although he's back from Iraq. It isn't always a good guide to sentiment about the war though. Everyone wants to see their family come home unscathed, but the fact is any number of military families supported the war (although my nephew's mother did not).

How come the liberals sound so much like OBL's latest tape.

1. Bush lies
2. Follow the opinion polls
3. I offer you a truce
4. No more losses (trust me)

-Source for full translation
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bin_laden_

"So you see how Bush was misleading people. The opinion polls are for the pull out and it's important that opinion polls say the people didn't want to fight the Muslims in their land and they didn't want the Muslims to fight them in their land.

I propose a long-term truce that will give the two sides stability and security.

And this is the most important, most diligent solution as a result of which there will be no losses." - OBL

And more!

If you don't truce. You soldiers will pick up the remains of their colleagues then kill themselves in despair and its all your fault!

"So you can imagine the state of psychological breakdown that afflicts a soldier as he gathers the remains of his colleagues after they stepped on land mines that tore them apart. After this situation the soldier is caught between two hard options. He either refuses to leave his military camp on patrols and is therefore dogged by ruthless punishments enacted by the Vietnam Butcher (U.S. army) or he gets destroyed by the mines. This puts him under psychological pressure, fear and humiliation while his nation is ignorant of that (what is going on). The soldier has no solution except to commit suicide. That is a strong message to you, written by his soul, blood and pain, to save what can be saved from this hell. The solution is in your hands if you care about them (the soldiers)." -OBL

it is indeed a sad comment when a terrorist like bin laden is more honest than bush.

it is indeed a sad comment when a terrorist like bin laden is more honest than bush.

Posted by: Nads on January 20, 2006 at 5:11 AM | PERMALINK

Bwahahaha! Osama for President! The Democrats have found their new nominee.

He's got it all! 1-7 to move to the center. 8-9 for the base.

1. Traditional values

2. Foreign policy experience

3. Military experience in the War on Terror

4. Old money and a distinguished family name

5. Honest and shoots from the hip (at American non-combatants anyway)

6. Against abortion and pro-death penalty

7. Has a Middle East peace plan (kill all the infidels, then there will be peace!)

8. Will hang many persons surnamed Bush

9. Against the War in Iraq

Nads, I'm hoping you were kidding. If not, I am moving cash to Yuan deposits now.

except for actually having military experience and being anti-bush and anti-iraq war, your list describes bush to a T.

why would dems want to saddle themselves with a second potential war criminal when we haven't removed the first one yet?

Osama is not the devil, and even the devil cannot make a fact false by stating it. That the president is a lying sack of shit is not one whit less true when trumpeted by a monster.

Me thinks the old Bush hatred, might be making it hard for the two of you to think.

It might be useful to analyze the situation in Iraq using the assumption that the result we find is what was intended. Almost nobody claims that, though; there's general agreement that the situation on the ground is a problem, which implies that mistakes were made.

In other words, the Pee Wee Herman defense, "I MEANT to do that!" is off the table.

There is a growing consensus that things are getting worse. If not a quagmire, Iraq is certainly a quandary.

Me thinks the old Bush hatred, might be making it hard for the two of you to think.
Posted by: McA

I'm sorry ... I have a hard time understanding you with bush's phallus in your mouth.

I think Dubner wrote in Freakonomics that the same applied to the Vietnam War, that the higher the education level, the higher the support for the war, but I don't have a copy handy, so I'm not sure.

Nads: you did yeoman's work in the gender debate downthread. Well done. Un fuerte abrazo.

Just in case this hasn't already been covered (I did read the whole thread, but I've forgotten it) core Democrats include union members, who may or may not be high school graduates, non-whites, who may be immigrants or descendents of slaves, usually most women, and the few who value education above its cost.

College graduates traditionally tend to be kids with well-to-do parents, and generally skew conservative, in accordance with their natal milieu.

and generally skew conservative, in accordance with their natal milieu.

Posted by: bad Jim on January 20, 2006 at 6:10 AM | PERMALINK

But why the post-grad shift to the left?

Well done. Un fuerte abrazo.

Posted by: bad Jim on January 20, 2006 at 6:01 AM | PERMALINK

How did u know he speaks Spanish?

So, Drum's threads are being systematically strangled?

It turns out that among people with at least some college education, a little less than 40% think we should withdraw as soon as possible. But among those with a high school education or less, this number shoots up to nearly 60%.

This shows that America's colleges are failing miserably at their major objective: turning students into anti-Bush, anti-military peacenik vegetarian hippie communist leftists.

Not to nitpick but: "It turns out that among people with at least some college education, a little less than 40% think we should withdraw as soon as possible.""

'Less' is for quantity as in 'It is healthier to eat less fast food." 'Fewer' is for number. "Fewer than 40%..." (Fewer Big Macs).

I used to object to my local Albertson's signage for their express lane reading '10 items or less'. Don't know if that had any impact on the fact that they are all now labeled, and correctly so, '10 items or fewer'.

sigh

I see that Osama bin Laden is offering a "long-term" truce in exchange for U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course, President Bush will gleefully refuse this request, which means the troops will be staying in both places for the forseeable future, which will give bin Laden what he wants anyway: an invaluable tool for recruiting more Al Qaeda operatives and engendering more sympathy for Al Qaeda in the Muslim world.

Damn. Anyone else get the feeling bin Laden's playing us like a cheap fiddle?

"They've got the post-grads in general. Not just the PhD's... Doesn't that include Lawyers, MBA's, etc., etc.... I'd say that includes quite a few limousine driving types.
Posted by: McAristotle on January 20, 2006 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK"

Thanks McAristotle, I'll think about that as I am driven to work in my Pontiac G6 limo.

"I propose a long-term truce that will give the two sides stability and security."

Yeah me too but just long enough to get him to show his face and then we shoot the murdering bastard between the lookers.
*Shrug* why not, cops use that strategy to get criminals.

James Loewen had some interesting comments on education levels and support for the Vietnam war in "Lies My Teach Told Me" (starting around p. 302 in chapter 12). He argues for two factors to explain greater war support among the more educated: allegiance and socialization.

Roughly, the first claim is that more educated people tend to be more successful, and therefor have a greater allegiance to the status quo.

Socialization refers to the fact that success in school often is the result of telling the professor what they want to hear, and more educated students are more conditioned to conformity.

Or something like that. "Both the allegiance and socialization processes cause the educated to believe that what America does is right."

In case anyone was wondering what McAristotle did for a living--he's a financial day trader who is seeking to corner the world market on red underwear:

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia Jan 20, 2006 — Good luck charms are usually worn around the neck, or on wrist. But this year, Chinese Malaysians are wearing them under their pants.

Red men's underwear emblazoned with auspicious animals and characters have become the rage among Malaysian Chinese ahead of the Chinese lunar New Year holidays, the New Straits Times reported Friday.

McAristotle's red underwear are emblazoned with pictures of Tom Delay and Duke Cunningham shoving dollar bills down their pants.

Fuck yourself, McA.

That is all.

Why is this post such a surprise? The more "educated" are probably more exposed to the main stream media and its influences, which the government uses very well for its purposes. Lets face it, educated people are more indoctrinated by the class who run this country. The less MSM you are exposed to, the more cynical you are about government.

Oh, and while I'm at it did anyone eals notice this one:

Extending its northern defenses to the natural Alpine barrier was obviously in Italy's interest, and popular sovereignty acted not as a break on war for this purpose but as a stimulus.

LATimes 15JAN06 Mark Helprin

Um...Mark, sometimes spell-check just won't do. The word in this context is 'brake'.

Society for the Preservation of Homonyms

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there's a chapter in the book "lies my teacher told me" that shows opinion polls of the public's attitudes about the vietman war. it's fairly similar to the point you make about those whose highest degree was a high school diploma.

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What it means is the uneducated are more likely to be in the military, love someone in the military, fear being drafted into the military, or fear someone they love being drafted.
They know that it's the enlisted taking the brunt of death and maiming. They know that rich folks like the Republicans in charge never went to serve in Viet Nam and their like will never serve in Iraq, especially not among the enlisted.
In short, they know on what side their bread is buttered, and they know that when it falls on the floor, their bread is more likely to land butter-side down.

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia Jan 20, 2006 — Good luck charms are usually worn around the neck, or on wrist. But this year, Chinese Malaysians are wearing them under their pants.

Posted by: Pale Rider on January 20, 2006 at 8:46 AM | PERMALINK

You are really obsessed with race aren't you?

Hot damn, McAnushole, your post of 9:25 AM is the most incisive, brilliant, yet subtle composition you have ever posted - Kudos to you for your O'Reillyian Pithy remarks.

are failing miserably at their major objective: turning students into anti-Bush, anti-military peacenik vegetarian hippie communist leftists.

Posted b