Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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February 9, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

MICHAEL YON....The Los Angeles Times profiles Iraq war blogger/reporter Michael Yon today:

From the start, Yon ignored the barriers that traditionally separated the press from its subjects. He openly rooted for soldiers and helped them collect the wreckage after roadside bombings.

In a crisis last summer, the fuzzy boundary between Yon and the troops seemed to disappear altogether. The incident began with a miles-long pursuit through Mosul, ending with Lt. Col. Kurilla being shot three times by an attacker who hid inside a shop.

In Yon's account, confirmed by others present, the two soldiers closest at hand froze. Sgt. Maj. Robert Prosser appeared and charged into the shop, toward the enemy. But it appeared to Yon that Prosser too went down.

Yon had already screamed at the unmoving soldiers to attack. Now he called to them for a grenade, which they did not have. So he picked up Prosser's empty M-4 rifle, loaded in a 30-round magazine, and fired three shots into the shop.

Yon learned later that Prosser was choking the attacker into unconsciousness.

One of Yon's shots punctured a barbecue-sized propane canister, which went flying wildly. The confusion actually gave the insurgent a moment to fight back before he was finally subdued.

"When we got back to the [base], I said, 'Have you lost your mind?' " Prosser recalled. "And he said, 'I was only trying to help.' I understood. But from a military perspective, I just cannot have him picking up a weapon."

Yon's blog is here.

Kevin Drum 1:24 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (135)

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Comments

Glad to see Yon is getting some more recognition. I urge anyone looking at his blog to go through a lot of the past dispatches. Some very good stuff there.

Posted by: tbrosz on February 9, 2006 at 1:29 PM | PERMALINK

Imagine that, a journalist in favor of US soldiers. What's the world coming to?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe we should think about this sort of thing before we urge Frank J., conspiracy nut and Freedom Fighter (if he weren't a parody) to head over there. The military does have minimum intelligence standards, no matter how strapped it may be at the moment. And we know these guys' version of "trying to help" would yield results even worse than Yon's.

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop,
And you know how much your urgings mean to us.

So is Yon a chickenhawk by your views or not?

Posted by: Frank J. on February 9, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Imagine if he had gotten his hands on a grenade.

Posted by: Betty Black on February 9, 2006 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

HI Frank Junior, angry honkey with gun. Signing up to go fight the thugs and assassins yet? I suppose your cute little wife wouldn;t want her man coming back home with no legs, now would she?

Anyone read you sucky blog lately, Frank? Didn't think so

Posted by: Sunbeam on February 9, 2006 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

Yon is a fool. He's untrained and could have killed Prosser. If he had gotten a grenade he would have thrown it onto Prosser's position. I would never want a loose cannon like that "having my back" in a war zone. He's seen too many movies like Red Dawn and has no clue how to act.

Posted by: puppethead on February 9, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

They not only have lowered the minimum standards on intelligence, but raised the age limit and now allow convicted felons to enlist -

So, for all of you ChickenShitHawks, TOH and Frankie the J, cn, jay and the Fighter of Freedom and his armored tricycle, your nearest enlisted officer is a'waitin' for all you brave boy/girls.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 9, 2006 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Sunbeam has a 2-pound trigger...

Posted by: Frank J. on February 9, 2006 at 1:44 PM | PERMALINK

What an asshole. If you wants to fight that much, why doesn't he enlist? Something Rich Lowery, Jonah Goldberg, Glenn Reynolds and the rest of worthless chicken hawks should do. Maybe we could "embed" (in a crater) T-Bone, Matt, Yancy, and Al?

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

Jeff II,
Does Al actually exist?

Posted by: Frank J. on February 9, 2006 at 1:47 PM | PERMALINK

your nearest enlisted officer is a'waitin' for all you brave boy/girls
Yep, and the insurgency is a waitin' for you! Time to stop talking and put your actions where your mouth is and help drive the evil Americans out of Iraq.

Everybody gets to chose their side.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 1:47 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and it probably should be noted that Yon is a former Green Beret before everyone goes crazy bashing his actions as someone who has "watched too many movies."

Posted by: Frank J. on February 9, 2006 at 1:50 PM | PERMALINK

Does Al actually exist?

You doubt my existence?

Posted by: Al on February 9, 2006 at 1:51 PM | PERMALINK

I remember reading Yon's account of that situation and realizing just how bad an idea it is for non-military personnel to get themselves involved in a combat role. (I also thought, "Man, that 2LT who gave Yon ammunition is in trouble.") Even though Yon has a military background, it not only wasn't his place to insert himself in the situation, but he damned near made the situation a lot worse. (To be fair, he ordered(!) an officer to grenade the shop /before/ the CSM ran inside.) In the end, the arrival of soldiers from a separate platoon stabilized the situation.

Posted by: WatchfulBabbler on February 9, 2006 at 1:53 PM | PERMALINK

This guy is an imbecile. Firing blind into an unknown position is a good way to create any one of several disasters: civilian casualties, friendly fire, starting a riot, you name it.

Our soldiers are well-trained to identify their targets and hold their fire until they are certain what they are shooting at (in fact, it's because a few young, green soldiers did not do these things that Pat Tillman died).

On the other hand, our right-wing bloggers are well-trained to point their heads in any direction they like and spew out whatever comes to mind. Not an ideal attitude for a firefight.

Posted by: mmy on February 9, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

Another case of--sorry, someone has to say it--Tiny Penis Syndrome gone awry. Oh, the damage those microdicks can do.

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and it probably should be noted that Yon is a former Green Beret before everyone goes crazy bashing his actions as someone who has "watched too many movies." Posted by: Frank J.

Does he also have an imaginary degree from Texas A&M?

Even if it is true, what the fuck was he doing firing blindly into the room? Did he forget all his training?

"100 men, they'll test today, but only three . . ."

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

How's that head you wanted your relative (brother?) to send back from Iraq, Frank J? Have you dipped into the Iraqi child pate yet?

Posted by: Hostile on February 9, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

Yon is a fool. He's untrained and could have killed Prosser. If he had gotten a grenade he would have thrown it onto Prosser's position.

Actually, Yon is former SF, and he tried to grenade the shop before the CSM went in. BUT -- it was still stupid, ill-considered, and wrong to do. Yon is not a serving soldier; he is not part of the chain of command; he has no tactical authority. His actions were well-intended, but the wrong decision at the wrong time.

Posted by: WatchfulBabbler on February 9, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

I'd rather they go through 100,000 phone calls and identify 20 people.

Maybe Mickey should move to China? I hear they can listen in on anyone's calls they darn well please.

I really think someone should get some input from people from nations that don't have the right to assume they are not unwittingly being spied. I want to hear from them. I want to hear the corrosive affect of involuntarily giving up your rights to privacy. And then I want to hear if they would be willing to volunteer to give them up under any circumstances.

Let's remove the legal aspects of it. It is obvious it against the law. But what about the human toll.

Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro likely made and make the same arguments. Does that make them justified?

Mickey Kaus may be willing to give up his rights because of a raving lunatic. I am not willing to make that sacrifice. If he wants to live in a state of fear, he can move to North Korea. I am going to staty here.

Posted by: justmy2 on February 9, 2006 at 2:00 PM | PERMALINK

The most intelligent comment was that of Sgt. Major Prosser:

"But from a military perspective, I just cannot have him picking up a weapon."

I wonder which part of the phrase "illegal combatant" Michael Yon doesn't understand. He should be kicked out of Iraq before he gets someone killed.

Posted by: Molloy on February 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

Our soldiers are well-trained to identify their targets and hold their fire until they are certain what they are shooting at (in fact, it's because a few young, green soldiers did not do these things that Pat Tillman died). Posted by: mmy

Where have you been for the last six months? It was admitted, finally, by the military that Tillman died by friendly fire.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

Watched too many movies, like you Frankie Junior? ha ha ha, so really, Frank, why haven't you signed up to take the fight to the evildoers? I'd love to hear your excuses. Anal warts like your hero Rush?s

Posted by: Sunbeam on February 9, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

What cracks me up is you have a bigger chance of getting struck by lightning than by a terrorist, But we don't spend 500 billion protecting anyone from lightning strikes.

Posted by: rico swava' on February 9, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think the guy's an asshole or anything. He's probably just really overzelous but that doesn't mean he doesn't have anything good to say on his blog. But you can see why soldiers go through so much training. There's a reason us average yokels can't just hop off and go to war.

Posted by: Alexander Wolfe on February 9, 2006 at 2:13 PM | PERMALINK

"Where have you been for the last six months? It was admitted, finally, by the military that Tillman died by friendly fire."

That's what I was saying. In the Washington Post's account of the Tillman incident, the gunner of one vehicle did not properly check his fire zone to see that his "enemy" was in fact a group of friendlies.

In the same way, Yon didn't seem able to check who was in his fire zone, and he's damn lucky that he didn't cause a friendly fire incident also. I'm surprised to hear that he was a Green Beret, because he sure didn't behave like one during this incident.

Posted by: mmy on February 9, 2006 at 2:15 PM | PERMALINK

I'm a lot less concerned by this than Judith Miller's role directing troops earlier in the war; yes, Yon did the wrong thing, but he did thing in the heat of an unexpected enemy attack where the soldiers that were around froze.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 2:18 PM | PERMALINK

these douchebags are hopeless--either they're too chickenshit to fight for a cause they supposedly believe in, or so damn stupid that they endager the lives of soldiers. He's lucky he didn't kill one.

Posted by: haha on February 9, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

I'm a lot less concerned by this than Judith Miller's role directing troops earlier in the war; yes, Yon did the wrong thing, but he did thing in the heat of an unexpected enemy attack where the soldiers that were around froze. Posted by: cmdicely

Says he.

Miller's interaction with the military in Iraq was well after the damage was done. It was just a continuation of the charade for the rubes at home.

That being said, Miller is pretty much a war criminal. Yon is just guilty of being stupid and/or gung ho.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 2:23 PM | PERMALINK
I wonder which part of the phrase "illegal combatant" Michael Yon doesn't understand.

Er, Yon wasn't an "illegal combatant" in any sense of the word. The word is used by the Bush Administration (arguably inappropriately, "non-protected combatant" would probably be better) for persons who are combatants but not in the protected categories under the Third Geneva Conventions. It is used, in part, to suggest that by their unprotected status they are, per se, war criminals, which is not the case.

But Yon wasn't a non-protected person under Geneva III, as he was a protected person under Article 4, Section 4 of the convention. As such, his taking up arms, while it may be a violation of the regulations imposed by the US military on civilians accompanying forces in the field, has no impact on his status under international law.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK

Lots of support for the troops here. Yon was watching two soldiers new to combat freeze. He acted in a desperate situation; sort of like one of you guys losing the TV remote under the couch with no one there to lift it up for you.

You guys are a real trip.

Posted by: Mike K on February 9, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK

You doubt my existence? - posted by Al

Hey, a lot of people, myself included, doubt God's existence, so don't feel so offended. :)

Posted by: Brazil Connection on February 9, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

There is support for the troops here. What we don't have is a cult like worship. Are you guys Ex-moonies?

Posted by: Neo on February 9, 2006 at 2:28 PM | PERMALINK
Says he.

From the LAT excerpt posted by Kevin:

In Yon's account, confirmed by others present, the two soldiers closest at hand froze.

In a bad situation, Yon screwed up because his trained response to take action was a lot more fresh than his military training on what action to take. That's bad (and dangerous, and certainly one reason why the military has to be careful with civilians accompanying forces in areas where hostilities are likely), but its hardly surprising or badly motivated or a justification for the kind of bagging on "right-wing bloggers" that some people have done in this thread (plenty of right wing bloggers have earned derision by their own actions as bloggers, of course, but this is not related to that.)

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 2:34 PM | PERMALINK

Ummm, Mikey dear, I'd think those of us supporting Sgt Major Prosser over some ignorant blogger were the ones supporting the troops.

But feel free to shoot your mouth off. You expose your ignorance every time.

Posted by: Tripp on February 9, 2006 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh, and it probably should be noted that Yon is a former Green Beret before everyone goes crazy bashing his actions as someone who has 'watched too many movies.'"

Green Beret or not, he's still probably seen too many movies.

Posted by: Donkey_Punch on February 9, 2006 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

The Special Forces had an interesting test in the 1960s. They would present a scenario, such as a hostage situation, taking communications through hostile territory in a civil war, withdrawing wounded across a partially moonlit field under fire, etc.

For your responses to the scenario, they would post six possible responses. You would then rate the responses in order from the best possible to the worst possible.

Throwing the live grenade either would the worst possible or not even presented.

This test convinced me that the Special Forces want individuals who can think and work as a team and not, what became later to be called, Rambos.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 9, 2006 at 2:38 PM | PERMALINK

Yon is the reason reporters are fair game in Iraq. They have no sense of truth and are part of the "enemy" forces. It is not their nationality but their bias in their writing and their actions. Kind of like Bush bloggers - unable to see the truth no matter what....blinded by the darkness enveloping them.

Posted by: murmeister on February 9, 2006 at 2:38 PM | PERMALINK

he acted foolishly--sort of like Mike K grasping for a cheeto that fell under his computer desk without lifting his fact, pimple-scarred ass off of the chair.

Posted by: haha on February 9, 2006 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Yon is the reason reporters are fair game in Iraq. They have no sense of truth and are part of the "enemy" forces. - posted by murmeister

Hmm, not so sure about that. What is the profile of the causes of death of journalists in Iraq? Are they killed in accidents? By crossfire? Are they intentionally targeted or caught by stray ordnance?

I can't say by experience, but I really, really doubt that all reporters in Iraq would do what this Yon dude did. And, although what he did was wrong and should deserve some kind of punishment, if he hadn't get any, from the story that was told I think is unfair to question his motives for doing this.

Posted by: Brazil Connection on February 9, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

"Yep, and the insurgency is a waitin' for you! Time to stop talking and put your actions where your mouth is and help drive the evil Americans out of Iraq.

Everybody gets to chose their side."

Typical horseshit from Conspiracy Nut...as if anyone who is opposed to the war in Iraq is in league with the terrorists...my, my sweetie...you really do have Karl Rove's talking points attached to your ass...

And Mike K talks real tough about remote controls under couches...this from a person who, before he wrote that post, probably lost his beer can under the couch while he was watching Red Scorpion (consider it his contribution to the war effort) or some other such shit...

Posted by: An Interested Party on February 9, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

oops...wrong thread....

Posted by: justmy2 on February 9, 2006 at 2:48 PM | PERMALINK

From the LAT excerpt posted by Kevin:

In Yon's account, confirmed by others present, the two soldiers closest at hand froze. Posted by: cmdicely

Hardly. That doesn't jibe with the rest of the account. If that were true, are we to assume these "others present" were donkey merchants or disinterested passers-by?

It's an interesting story with holes in it large enough to drive a semi through.

"I was the last man standing. So I grabbed the .30cal, jumped out of my fox hole, and rushed the Nazi pillbox. About ten feet from the concrete-reinforced bunker, I dropped the weapon, pulled the pin on two pineapples, and threw myself forward while pitching them in the slit."

"That was the last thing those Nazi bastards say."

Tune in next week for more exciting adventures with Sgt. Rock!

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK

as if anyone who is opposed to the war in Iraq is in league with the terrorists
I wouldn't go so far as to say "in league with", but it's clear you share the same goal.

On the "in league" thing, though, if the shoe fits...

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

but it's clear you share the same goal.

nope. But no one expects you to understand anything, only to provide the usual moronic wingnut viewpoint.
Entertaining, but otherwise useless.

Posted by: haha on February 9, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK
Hardly. That doesn't jibe with the rest of the account.

What else in the account doesn't jibe with it? That's exactly what the article says -- its a direct quote, not a characterization I made up.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

nope
Nope? Do you mean the left is now in favor of leaving US armed forces in Iraq? When did this happen?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

Shorter Yon: "I'm IncrediBoy!"

Posted by: Quaker in a Basement on February 9, 2006 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

Apologies if someone already linked to this, but the original "Gates of Fire" dispatch that covers the gun firing incident is here. It has more detail than the L.A. Times article.

Posted by: tbrosz on February 9, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder if anyone ever told Prosser about the dipshit hollering for a grenade...

Posted by: Doozer on February 9, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

Help me out here. Kevin links to an article detailing the escapades of a nutty blogger/wannabe soldier who picks up a gun and charges into combat situation, doing something stupid that could have easily resulted in the death of an American NCO. And the hawk trolletariat shows up to commend him?

He's clearly no chickenhawk, and his heart was in the right place. But this was a stupid and dangerous thing for him to do.

Posted by: Violet on February 9, 2006 at 3:17 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz!! Nice to see ya! Gotta help me out in the other thread - the NSA thing! I need info! My mind reels! :)

Posted by: Brazil Connection on February 9, 2006 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

I'm interested in the soliders who froze. I read (a good while ago) where there was a study about how many soldiers actually fire their weapons in a firefight. My memory is dodgy, but the number that sticks in my head is 1 in 7. Most soldiers freeze.

(The study may have been about WW2 and Korea where the soldiers largely were draftees. Maybe modern soldiers and/or the modern army is different.)

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on February 9, 2006 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

Do you mean the left is now in favor of leaving US armed forces in Iraq? When did this happen?

When did the monolithic Left appear?

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on February 9, 2006 at 3:21 PM | PERMALINK

Violet: And the hawk trolletariat shows up to commend him?

I know; it's incredible. But remember, these are the people who value unconsidered action over any kind of, you know, reasoned approach. They're the ones who mumble, with a straight face, "At least Bush is doing something!"

As though burning down the barn and everything in it were an acceptable way to get rid of the barn cat's fleas. (Actually, those survived; Osama bin Kitten walked away unscathed.)

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

When did the monolithic Left appear?
Since you threw all the conservatives overboard. Started in the 70s and you finished up in 2005.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

Dang, the boy has bad luck - finishing SF training, then being charged with manslaughter, having to beat the charges - trying to remember his SF training from 83, then not having a "Gardner at Gettyburg arranging bodies for the photo shot at Little Round Top" - could have another photog stage the photos, sorta like having a soldier cradling a baby ala the fireman at Oklahoma City - another Picture of the Year, more sales - what a guy!!!

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 9, 2006 at 3:39 PM | PERMALINK

...a study about how many soldiers actually fire their weapons in a firefight. My memory is dodgy, but the number that sticks in my head is 1 in 7... Maybe modern soldiers and/or the modern army is different.

I believe that is the case. iirc, by Viet Nam the number of soldiers firing was reported as 90% due to changes in training.

A good book on the subject is On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

Posted by: Wapiti on February 9, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

In a bad situation, Yon screwed up because his trained response to take action was a lot more fresh than his military training on what action to take. That's bad (and dangerous, and certainly one reason why the military has to be careful with civilians accompanying forces in areas where hostilities are likely)

You mean as opposed to doing nothing and having the bad guys come out of the garage and blow his and the two frozen guy's heads off? Give me a f$%&-ing break here...back seat drivers from the opposite side of the world counseling a former special forces member on what he should do when the doo-doo is hitting the fan. He did what you're supposed to do to save your own life in that situation, which is to attack as Prosser and the Colonel did. He attacked to save the Colonel's life after the two bubbas didn't. You'd have preferred he film the bad guys doing a ritual beheading of the Colonel? Of course not.

Saying sorry afterward beats having an AK-47 round removed from your frontal lobe. Prosser and the Colonel gave him all the counseling he needed. You will not they did not throw him out afterwards. He stayed with the unit.

Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Since you threw all the conservatives overboard. Started in the 70s and you finished up in 2005.

You're dreaming again.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on February 9, 2006 at 3:49 PM | PERMALINK

He did what you're supposed to do to save your own life in that situation, which is to attack as Prosser and the Colonel did. - posted by Red State Mike

But I thought this guy Prosser himself later said that he shouldn't have gotten the gun and used it.

I'm certain they kept him in the unit because he was acting sincerely and in good faith, but they might have been reckless, maybe overly loyal, in doing this, and the guy certainly got some serious verbal abuse from them.

Posted by: Brazil Connection on February 9, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINK

What would James Frey have done?

Posted by: stupid git on February 9, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINK

You're dreaming again.
I am? Lieberman rates a 76 of 100 on the liberal scale (according to the liberal org ADA). He is liberal by liberal definition. For 2004, the least liberal score by a remaining Dem Senator was 65 (Nelson, NE)* , still left of moderate. Zell was the last conservative you had. And moderates are damn rare. The Dems have swung so far left there are only 2 types of Dems remaining: lefties and bat-shit crazy lefties.

* Kerry and Edwards score was lower due to missed votes (campaining), of the votes they attended they scored 100.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 3:59 PM | PERMALINK

By Yon's account Kurilla was badly injured, Prosser appeared dead, and the two young soldiers were frozen. I have no idea what I might have done in such a situation, but I like to think that I would not have just sat there and photographed Kurilla being shot again by a terrorist I thought might have just killed Prosser.

I would guess that the unit has since made it clear to him not to pick up rifles and fire blindly into a room where they themselves might be, but that they continue to allow him to embed suggests they value his demonstrated loyalty.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on February 9, 2006 at 4:12 PM | PERMALINK

I would transfer him to central command next to a com link and a panel with lots of buttons. If the people in charge ever appear to be "frozen" he can step into action and order a few airstrikes.

Posted by: B on February 9, 2006 at 4:22 PM | PERMALINK

From CN:
"When did the monolithic Left appear?"
"Since you threw all the conservatives overboard. Started in the 70s and you finished up in 2005."

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Do you mean that the Left used to include conservatives? Or did the Left lure all the conservatives onto a boat one day and then threw them over the side?

You might try actually thinking about the meaning of the comment you are responding to before you post.

Posted by: k on February 9, 2006 at 4:24 PM | PERMALINK

Lieberman's ADA rating!...You lefties should go fight with the insurgents!...Ted Kennedy!...Tradesports!...Red China!...I used to be sincere!...Castro!...Soviet commies!...flerk! whiz! fwip! FLOP!

Posted by: Random Conspiracy Nut Word Generator on February 9, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

You might try actually thinking about the meaning of the comment you are responding to before you post.
Hey, I could recommend the same.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

You forgot Al Bore.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 4:31 PM | PERMALINK

CN: "Hey, I could recommend the same."

Since you seem to have a proclivity for spouting irrelevant or meaningless statements, yes, you certainly could.

The point is, someone made a comment that apparently went over your head. Go back and read it again and try to formulate a response to that comment and not just say whatever random thought pops into your head. If you don't understand the original comment you could ask for clarification. Please feel free to try again, but if you can't keep up with the class we are going to have to drop you down a grade.

Posted by: k on February 9, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

From reading the LA Times article he sounds like a cowboy from beginning to end - and not just in that one tale.

Posted by: muddy on February 9, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

From reading the LA Times article he sounds like a cowboy from beginning to end - and not just in that one tale.

And that means...what?

Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, and mutilate.

Posted by: on February 9, 2006 at 5:00 PM | PERMALINK

K
The comment I replied to implied that the Dems were not a monolithic block. I pointed out that they were, because they've jettisoned all the conservative Dems, which leaves only lefties. No diversity, as it were.

Now, what part of that are you having trouble following?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINK
You mean as opposed to doing nothing and having the bad guys come out of the garage and blow his and the two frozen guy's heads off?

No, I mean not endangering the US soldier who was already handling the situation and had the insurgent well -- literally -- in hand by firing blindly into a situation where he could identify no target and where he knew that at least one friendly was somewhere in the area he was shooting.

Note also that I was criticizing the overreaction by some of Yon's critics in the thread. Try actually, you know, reading before flying off the handle.

Give me a f$%&-ing break here...back seat drivers from the opposite side of the world counseling a former special forces member on what he should do when the doo-doo is hitting the fan.

Hey, it was Prosser -- you know, the currently serving Command Sergeant-Major on the scene who was endangered by Yon's recklessness -- not me, who asked if he lost his mind.

I'm just saying that what Prosser appears to say at the end of Kevin's excerpt from the LAT article was right on the money -- it was the wrong thing to do, it is easy to understand in retrospect given the background and circumstance and not evidence of any ill-motive or particular dangerous nature of Yon (compared to any civilian being in a combat situation, and if you don't have that, you end up with no correspondents accompanying troops at all, which I think, for society, is a worse result in the long term), and illustrative of why people who aren't soldiers shouldn't generally be given weapons when in the field.

Prosser and the Colonel gave him all the counseling he needed.

Where, precisely, did I suggest otherwise? Maybe you could deal with what people actually say rather than positions you invent that you'd like to argue against.

I mean, geez, don't you find enough to disagree with here without inventing things?

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

Well, no, Red State Mike. The fact of the matter is that if Yon had done nothing, then the Sgt. Major would have subdued the enemy more quickly.

Over-reactions can be just as dangerous as under-reactions.

In either case, it's beside the point. America's fighting force is effective because they are trained, cohesive and part of a unit. If people start screwing with that, no matter how well intentioned, it puts the military in jeopardy and makes it more difficult for them to fulfill their mission.

Yon's intentions were good. But it's not his intentions that are a problem here. It's his incorrect actions and their effects. Once can be a soldier or one can be the press. But one cannot be both.

Posted by: theorajones on February 9, 2006 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

"The comment I replied to implied that the Dems were not a monolithic block. I pointed out that they were, because they've jettisoned all the conservative Dems, which leaves only lefties. No diversity, as it were."

Sorry, but no. The comment you replied to said nothing about Democrats. Here it is in its entirety:

"When did the monolithic Left appear?"

The implied point of this comment is that the members of the "Left" (or the "Right" or any other such vague generalization used to lump huge numbers of disparate people together) are not uniform in their opinions (I guess because you think there are only two opinions on any subject: yours and not yours). You clearly missed this point and instead changed the topic to "Is the Democratic Party monolithically leftist?" whatever that means. Why?

Posted by: k on February 9, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

I'm a liberal and totally opposed to the war, but some of the comments on this thread are embarrassing to me. I've read Yon's blog on occasion, and had read his account of this particular skirmish. The guy is clearly both pro-war and pro-soldier, but I have to say that some of the comments on this board play right into the right wing accusations that "we support the troops" talk from the left is bullshit. Second guessing someone for their actions in the middle of a firefight from the comfort of your living room is fucked up. It's not like he committed an atrocity. The guy did a dumb thing, and if you read his account, he's somewhat sheepish. But if you follow his blog you know he's very emotionally attached to the guys he's with. He shouldn't have taken part in the fight, but he's not an "asshole" or an "imbecile." Give the right wing "fighting keyboardists" all the shit they deserve. I don't think this guy is in their category.

And if you do supoport the troops, his blog is a pretty good way to get a view of their lives on the ground in Iraq. You won't find a lot of flag-waving in his writing.

Posted by: Chris on February 9, 2006 at 5:30 PM | PERMALINK

The comment you replied to said nothing about Democrats.
Sure it did. The Democratic Party is composed entirely of lefties, as I pointed out and defended. When one speaks of lefties, one speaks of the Democratic Party.

The implied point of this comment is that the members of the "Left" (or the "Right" or any other such vague generalization used to lump huge numbers of disparate people together) are not uniform in their opinions
That's what I said. And again, I pointed out that the Democratic Party is uniform in their opinion because they have no remaining diversity (beyond the distinction of lefties and bat-shit crazy lefties).

Why?
Because I addressed the previous comment, instead of engaging in some BS manuever to confuse the situation.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINK

Thorajones
Well, no, Red State Mike. The fact of the matter is that if Yon had done nothing, then the Sgt. Major would have subdued the enemy more quickly.

You can only judge his decisions based on what he knew when he made them, not on 20/20 hindsight as you have. He thought Prosser might be getting shot ala the Colonel.

Since the Colonel wanted the two guys who froze to engage, and Yon did engage in their place, it is hard to say he did the wrong thing tactically-wise. It is correct that embed aren't supposed to fight.

Personally, I think the guy rocks (same for Chris Allbritton for being there on the scene). An interesting side note is Yon just sued the Army for using a picture he took without permission. The Army backed down.

Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK
The Democratic Party is composed entirely of lefties, as I pointed out and defended. When one speaks of lefties, one speaks of the Democratic Party.

Um, ignoring for the moment that the first statement isn't true, it doesn't support the second statement. It is logically identical to saying "The KKK is composed entirely of Americans of European descent. When one speaks of Americans of European descent, one speaks of the KKK."

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

I am? Lieberman rates a 76 of 100 on the liberal scale (according to the liberal org ADA). He is liberal by liberal definition.

And Lieberman hardly supports getting out of Iraq. (Do you see how that works? Yunnerstan that your own example undercuts your argument? Have you convinced yourself that you're, well ...

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on February 9, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK
Since the Colonel wanted the two guys who froze to engage, and Yon did engage in their place, it is hard to say he did the wrong thing tactically-wise.

Well, other than the fact that, at least when I was in ROTC, the military tended to make a distinction between "wildly firing without identifying a target" and "engaging".

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 5:58 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely
Well, other than the fact that, at least when I was in ROTC, the military tended to make a distinction between "wildly firing without identifying a target" and "engaging".

Google on covering fire or suppressive fire.

Suppressive fire may be either aimed (at a specific enemy soldier, group of soldiers, or vehicle) or unaimed (for example, at a building or treeline where enemy soldiers are suspected to be hiding.) To be effective, suppressive fire must be relatively continuous and high in volume.
Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 6:03 PM | PERMALINK

I know what suppressive fire is without Google; I don't see any evidence that unaimed suppressive fire is either what the Colonel wanted or something that was tactically appropriate in the circumstances.

Its pretty clear that the military personnel on the scene, while believing Yon's actions were well intentioned and, in retrospect, understandable, believe they were tactically inappropriate. "Have you lost your mind?" is not exactly a ringing endorsement of a tactical decision.

Why are you second guessing them from the opposite side of the world?

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

Google on covering fire or suppressive fire.

Suppressive fire may be either aimed (at a specific enemy soldier, group of soldiers, or vehicle) or unaimed (for example, at a building or treeline where enemy soldiers are suspected to be hiding.) To be effective, suppressive fire must be relatively continuous and high in volume.

Posted by: Red State Mike

Dumb ass. Suppressive fire is used in open terrain at a distance. This was a close-quarters street fight.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

CN, you still aren't getting it. I don't believe you are even trying. See me after class.

Posted by: k on February 9, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

I know what suppressive fire is without Google; I don't see any evidence that unaimed suppressive fire is either what the Colonel wanted or something that was tactically appropriate in the circumstances.
Posted by: cmdicely

God you love the look of your own writing, don't you? Do you find people wandering away from you at parties as well when you give a $500.00 answer to a five cent question?

Economy, man. Economy. I said the same thing, and insulted Red Butt Mike, in 19 words.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK

The guy did a dumb thing, and if you read his account, he's somewhat sheepish.

Glad to hear it. Did he ever say what he planned to do with the grenade?

As for second guessing from our living rooms, I think a lot of us are simply agreeing with Prosser. Reactions are certainly difficult in the middle of a fire fight, but Yon's indicate the need for more training. If he didn't realize he did something wrong, the right action would be to pull him from the unit.

Posted by: B on February 9, 2006 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK
Economy, man.

I thought you said I was a girl?

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

Yon should be sent home, no matter what else he did.

Firing a weapon? That guy is dangerous and is endangering reporters and the service men and women he reports on.

Posted by: Crissa on February 9, 2006 at 6:29 PM | PERMALINK

Um, ignoring for the moment that the first statement isn't true, it doesn't support the second statement.
In general you are correct; but in the case of the Democratic Party, you are not.

In your KKK example, while members of the KKK were Americans of European descent, members of the KKK constituted a small subset of Americans of European descent. Looking at the ADA scores in the Senate, all moderates and all conservatives are Republican. And since the comment section here is full of people wondering why even those Dem Senators (who all score to the left) are not left enough, we find that the population of Dems is farther left than the Senators. So there are no lefties outside of the Democratic Party, as there was a subset of Americans of European descent outside of the KKK.

Now, I recognize that many here think they are moderate, and they think that supports the claim that some Dems are conservative. But, moderate on this moonbat blog doesn't mean moderate in the world.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 6:29 PM | PERMALINK

Economy, man.

I thought you said I was a girl?
Posted by: cmdicely

No. You just write like one over-compensating.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 6:29 PM | PERMALINK

I really think someone should get some input from people from nations that don't have the right to assume they are not unwittingly being spied. I want to hear from them. I want to hear the corrosive affect of involuntarily giving up your rights to privacy. And then I want to hear if they would be willing to volunteer to give them up under any circumstances.

I can only speak indirectly here but my cousins and aunts and uncles lived in East Berlin, cut off from our family and the rest of the world, under this type of regime. My cousins were activists and were routinely spied on by the Stasi and, even worse, by their "friends" who informed on them because they had been bribed and/or coerced by the Communist regime.

They are, quite simply, gobsmacked and astonished beyond all belief by what is going on in America now. When they were behind the Wall they looked to the US as a beacon of freedom, as the champion of liberty and the rule of law. They cannot understand how a mere fifteen years later the situation has shifted so dramatically that now I'm the one living in the country where my calls are being spied on, and they're living in a country with very strong privacy protections. Having lived through the nightmare themselves they cannot understand how we can do this, and, even worse, how we are doing it to ourselves, voluntarily -- at least they had the excuse that they were occupied by the Red Army....

Posted by: Stefan on February 9, 2006 at 6:33 PM | PERMALINK

CN, you still aren't getting it. I don't believe you are even trying.
Oh, I get it. I think you don't want to face the truth that the Democratic Party has strayed as far outside of the mainstream as they have.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 6:35 PM | PERMALINK

Dumb ass. Suppressive fire is used in open terrain at a distance. This was a close-quarters street fight.

Dumbass. Suppressive fire is fire meant to suppress the enemy. Period.

Hey, read the story. Not the LA Times, but the real story.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/gates-of-fire.htm

Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

They are, quite simply, gobsmacked and astonished beyond all belief by what is going on in America now. When they were behind the Wall they looked to the US as a beacon of freedom, as the champion of liberty and the rule of law. Posted by: Stefan

And people say Radio Free Europe was a waste of money.

"On Broadvay . . ."

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINK
In your KKK example, while members of the KKK were Americans of European descent, members of the KKK constituted a small subset of Americans of European descent.

My KKK example is exactly parallel to what you stated.

If what you stated wasn't the case to defend what you wanted to defend, maybe you should have said what you meant, and maybe you should admit your error.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, read the story. Not the LA Times, but the real story. Posted by: Red State Mike

I did read the "real" story, Red Butt. The action took place in a space of about 50 square feet, maybe less. There is no such thing as suppressive fire in such a confined space, especially with two men down in front of you, and one of them obscured from your vision.

Posted by: Jeff II on February 9, 2006 at 6:44 PM | PERMALINK

In your example, cn, Democrats are a subset of lefties, but lefties in toto are not a subset of Democrats.

So when you speak of the left, for all I know you're talking about the Green Press, not Democrats.

One is a subset of Two, but Two is not synonymous with One.

...And sometimes I don't have to wonder why you call Lefties elite. They have, ya know, edumacation.

Posted by: Crissa on February 9, 2006 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

They are, quite simply, gobsmacked and astonished beyond all belief by what is going on in America now.
I know what you mean, just last night when I went to the grocery store I was accosted by jack-booted thugs that wanted to search my loaf of bread for grenades. They questioned me under a bare bulb for hours, now I have this pain in the diodes all down my left side.

And remember when they shut off free speech? No more internets posting, no more anti-war demonstrations, and then they had the gall to nationalize all the news outlets. And it's been months since I've been able to shout the praises of Che on the street corner.

We're living in a totalitarian regime, I tell you!

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK

I pointed out that the Democratic Party is uniform in their opinion because they have no remaining diversity (beyond the distinction of lefties and bat-shit crazy lefties).

Man, it's so depressing to see you throw up tripe like this because unlike most of the trolls here, you actually have some intelligence.

Unfortunately you're so welded to a particular world-view that functionally you're an accidental solipsist.

A day does not go by where even conservative pundits fail to point out that the Democratic party is in disarray precisely because it contains too many varying points of view. That is exactly the opposite of "no diversity" within the party -- which of course describes the lock-step Republicans, who force their moderates to vote the conservative line every single time.

It's a nonsensical point to say that because a group is liberal that they all hold the same point of view or even remotely agree on solutions; it just says that they have a general set of a priori assumptions in common to start out with. There were like eight different positions on the Iraq war alone among the candidates in the 2004 primary, to name one example among many.

Posted by: Windhorse on February 9, 2006 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, I can't read the "real story" right now, as I am busily engaged in reading James Frey.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 9, 2006 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely
My KKK example is exactly parallel to what you stated.
I believe I defended my position, do I take it this statement is your only retort to that defense? One proper response would be to show me that there is a substantial group of lefties outside the Democratic Party.

Windhorse
Man, it's so depressing to see you throw up tripe like this because unlike most of the trolls here, you actually have some intelligence.
I, like the other commenters here, feel myself under no constraint to moderate my views or use any intelligence. When in Rome...

A day does not go by where even conservative pundits fail to point out that the Democratic party is in disarray precisely because it contains too many varying points of view.
I've stated that the Democratic Party has a range of views, from lefty all the way to bat-shit insane lefty.

And actually, what they point out is all the single issue groups that you have to weld together.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 9, 2006 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK
So there are no lefties outside of the Democratic Party,

Uh, what?

C-nut, The Green Party of the United States, the Greens/Green Party USA, the Communist Party USA, the Freedom Socialist Party/Radical Women, the Grassroots Party, the Labor Party, the Light Party, the New Party, the Peace and Freedom Party, the Socialist Party USA, Socialst Action, the Socialist Equality Party, the Socialist Labor Party, the Socialist Workers Party, the US Pacificst Party, the Workers World Party, the Pansexual Peace Party, the Pot Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party USA, the US Marijuana Party, the Workers Party USA, the World Socialist Party USA, among other parties and many leftists outside of any organized (or not) party all beg to differ; there are clearly plenty of leftists outside of the Democratic Party.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 9, 2006 at 7:00 PM | PERMALINK

Man, it's so depressing to see you throw up tripe like this because unlike most of the trolls here, you actually have some intelligence.

I don't see it. I see seventh-grade sneers, a desperate need for attention, a truly pathetic joy when someone actually addresses him, a misplaced belief that he comes off as casually amused rather than seething with anger, and a repertoire of supposed insults (comparisons to Che? Is that for real?) that puts him firmly in the geezer camp. You know, they didn't stop making news available after 1980. They just made it a lot harder to find.

We have another non-American with the same qualities, McA, but even he's cracked a book in the past couple of decades. God, how embarrassing to be McA, only less well read.

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 7:01 PM | PERMALINK

What's this Pansexual Peace Party? I don't want to join it, nor even be a fellow traveler, but I wouldn't mind checking out a meeting. Just kidding.

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 7:03 PM | PERMALINK

I don't want to join it, nor even be a fellow traveler, but I wouldn't mind checking out a meeting.

Need a ride? ;)

Juuuuuust kidding. I'm pretty certain we're both happily married.

You know, they didn't stop making news available after 1980. They just made it a lot harder to find.

Oh, burn!

Posted by: Windhorse on February 9, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

Juuuuuust kidding. I'm pretty certain we're both happily married.

Oui, c'est vrai. I just can't miss a chance to rile up the sock puppets who post indignantly about "libertine libs." Hey, all the freeloadin' we're doing at the expense of hard-working taxpayers gives us more time for free lovin'.

Posted by: shortstop on February 9, 2006 at 7:19 PM | PERMALINK

Jeff II (maybe they'll get it right on Jeff 2.1)
I did read the "real" story, Red Butt. The action took place in a space of about 50 square feet, maybe less. There is no such thing as suppressive fire in such a confined space, especially with two men down in front of you, and one of them obscured from your vision.

Yes there is, moron. You shoot to make the other guy duck. Same idea as a flash-bang. And as a SF guy, Yon was trained in CBQ. He sure as hell knew how to load a magazine into the gun and set it on semi-auto. I think he wasn't doing a "spray and pray".

He could see both men, one completely and the other his legs. He knew where they were, and where they weren't. Read the story. Again. This time for comprehension. Dumbass.

Posted by: Red State Mike on February 9, 2006 at 9:52 PM | PERMALINK

Go Yon go!

Posted by: BigRiver on February 9, 2006 at 10:44 PM | PERMALINK

The Green Party of the United States, the Greens/Green Party USA, the Communist Party USA, the Freedom Socialist Party/Radical Women, the Grassroots Party, the Labor Party, the Light Party, the New Party, the Peace and Freedom Party, the Socialist Party USA, Socialst Action, the Socialist Equality Party, the Socialist Labor Party, the Socialist Workers Party, the US Pacificst Party, the Workers World Party, the Pansexual Peace Party, the Pot Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party USA, the US Marijuana Party, the Workers Party USA, the World Socialist Party USA, among other parties and many leftists outside of any organized (or not) party

Unite! to defeat the monopoly of Republican/Democrat Crony Capitalism!

(Thanks to cmdicely.)

Posted by: Hostile on February 9, 2006 at 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

I read something about a camera man in Vietnam who threw down his camera and picked up an M16 and led a charge against an enemy ambush. Wish I could remember his name.

Posted by: merl on February 10, 2006 at 6:12 AM | PERMALINK

cmdicely
Uh, what?
C-nut, The Green Party of the United States, the Greens/Green Party USA...

These are people that the Democatic Party is trying to bring into the fold. They are trying to squeeze out their right-most members (Lieberman, 76 rating) in favor of these groups.

The Dems used to have some balance, but they've now ditched the conservatives and moderates. Nobody right of a 65 rating in the Senate. And you boys would be happy ditching Nelson and Lieberman and have nobody right of an 80 rating.

Guess what, when politicians leave the Dems, they likely become Repub; it's the only real alternative. Right now Repubs span scores from 0 to 65, Dems from 65 to 100. And your party's desire is to make Repubs span from 0 to 80 and Dems from 80 to 100? And then what? 90? 95?

This is diversity? This is the Party of Ideas? Here's your clue: it wasn't Nixon's Southern Strategy, it was the Democrat's Southern Strategy. And you're still at it.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 10, 2006 at 9:26 AM | PERMALINK

"I, like the other commenters here, feel myself under no constraint to moderate my views or use any intelligence. When in Rome..."

Shorter Conspiracy Nut: "I'm stupid and childish because everyone else here is."

A brillant defense! Certainly it would explain what you might see at NRO or LGF...

Posted by: An Interested Party on February 10, 2006 at 9:32 AM | PERMALINK

So it wasn't Nixon's Southern Strategy but rather the Democrat's Southern Strategy of LBJ, among other Democrats, actually supporting civil rights and then losing the South because of that? CN isn't an accidental solipsist, he's just a plain solipist (and he/she/it has the nerve to call anyone else a "moonbat"). But of course that is acceptable because supposedly everyone else who posts here is too...

Posted by: An Interested Party on February 10, 2006 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

Uh oh.

"write like a girl"

WTF?

Posted by: CFShep on February 10, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

One serious error that has been propagated here by the commenters should be corrected, and the error was Kevin's fault:

Kevin's blog entry implies that Yon called for the grenade after Prosser entered the scene. If you read the actual account in Yon's blog, you will find that Yon called for the grenade before Prosser arrived.

Now a grenade may not have been the proper choice of weapon in any case, but to imply that Yon wanted to throw a grenade into the doorway, with Prosser already there and down, is a mistake at best.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on February 10, 2006 at 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

Red State Mike,

Wikipedia is not actually a valid citation. It is big, and it is convenient, and it speaks with great authority, but it is not valid.

When I read the sections I actually know about I frequently find small errors.

Considering that anybody can edit any article it is remarkable that Wikipedia is as good as it is but still it is not really a valid citation.

Posted by: Tripp on February 10, 2006 at 11:00 AM | PERMALINK

CFshep,

"write like a girl"

Yeah, I'd like to know what that means too.

Does it mean "stepping with the wrong foot, not facing sideways, and no follow through?"

Posted by: Tripp on February 10, 2006 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Does it mean "stepping with the wrong foot, not facing sideways, and no follow through?"
Posted by: Tripp

So that's what the reference to 'over-compensating' meant!

Frelling Hell.

Posted by: CFShep on February 10, 2006 at 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

These are people that the Democatic Party is trying to bring into the fold. They are trying to squeeze out their right-most members (Lieberman, 76 rating) in favor of these groups.

Whether or not the Party is trying to (and, no, I don't see the national party reaching out to most of the groups on that list), they are clearly outside of the party now, contrary to your idiotic claim that there are no "lefties" outside of the Democratic Party.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 10, 2006 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK
The Dems used to have some balance, but they've now ditched the conservatives and moderates.

Oh, boo hoo, our party actually has some principles and values, rather than standing for opportunistic self-aggrandizement. How is this a bad thing?

Posted by: cmdicely on February 10, 2006 at 11:50 AM | PERMALINK

Now a grenade may not have been the proper choice of weapon in any case, but to imply that Yon wanted to throw a grenade into the doorway, with Prosser already there and down, is a mistake at best.

Whereas firing wildly into the shop where Prosser was with an M-4 was the height of responsibility.

Posted by: shortstop on February 10, 2006 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop,

Yon knew exactly where Prosser was, or did you not read the story. I am not defending what Yon did since Prosser himself thought it was incredibly stupid, but there is no call for trying to make it seem like Yon was even dumber than that. To do so borders on being dishonest. I am giving Kevin the benefit of the doubt, and assuming the chronology he supplied was a mistake.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on February 10, 2006 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

they are clearly outside of the party now
Greens and Al Gore.
Dems telling me that the socialist way is the best way (e.g. Sweden, not the USSR).
No, the Dem party would love to bring these people in. The differences are small.

Oh, boo hoo, our party actually has some principles and values
Ya, an increasingly narrow set of principles and values. It's a bad thing because you are losing your diversity, and therefore your touch on people at large. You are making yourself a narrow focus, and hence, fringe group.

You are working towards being one of the groups you listed earlier instead of towards being a national party with wide-spread support. That's a wonderful thing if you want to enlarge the Repub party so it splits, and leaves the Dems with all the influence of the CPUSA.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 10, 2006 at 12:56 PM | PERMALINK

Yon knew exactly where Prosser was, or did you not read the story.

Perhaps you read a different story, Yancey. The one here says Yon thought Prosser had gone down, and only learned later he was choking his attacker. Meanwhile, Yon fired several shots into the shop not knowing where Prosser was.

In fact, the relevant portion is what Kevin excerpted here. Jeebus.

Posted by: shortstop on February 10, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop,

Yon could see Prosser's legs, he knew exactly where Prosser was, but he did not know if he was conscious, unconscious, or dead. You cannot just read the LA Times interpretation of what happened, which is being generous to the journalist that wrote the profile and the story. Read the link tbrosz supplied to the actual account Yon wrote on the event in question. Something Kevin clearly didn't do, and it appears that the LA Times writer didn't do it either.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on February 10, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely brought the problems with Wikipedia to this site several months ago. He mentioned that, while it is a quick reference point for an overview, one must be careful to accept it chapter and verse.

Following his post, various stories started appearing as to the problems at Wikipedia - Selective editing, hyping by posters, mis-information directed against someone as comic relief, etc.

Great for a quick overview - but take their "information" with a great deal of Sea Salt.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 10, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

Conspiracy Nut exposes the wetdream of many conservatives when he talks about the Democratic Party being, or becoming a fringe party...yes, the batshit crazies like him would like that, but we're still basically a 50/50 nation...just because they want that doesn't make it so...

Posted by: An Interested Party on February 10, 2006 at 2:38 PM | PERMALINK

So why didn't Yon go into the building and engage the haji directly? What good did he think three random shots into the building was going to do?
I give Yon kudos for having the courage of his convictions regarding war coverage but his actions that day were just dumb. Reminds me of all the law enforcement that poured into New Orleans trying to help after Katrina and ended up going all posse comitatus on the locals. Hearts in the right place but actions made no sense.

Posted by: deadmarine on February 10, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

In 82, an eighteen year old enters the Army and goes through SF training, which he completes at 19, immediately gets into a bar fight and kills a man - is finally acquitted, shows up over 20 years later going to Iraq on his own to photograph and write about the troops. Sells his photos online for as much as $175.00 a pop, which look very much like a photo of a fireman from the Oklahoma blast with a child in his arms. All of the right wing extol his Special Forces background, which was training to become one, not working with their units - acts like Rambo and the right is thrilled. Anything for the cause and the cause and the cause.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 10, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

Yon was with a well trained leg outfit at the time - However, Special Forces soldiers are well trained AND they are NOT gung-ho Rambo types. Perhaps he forgot his training from over 20 years ago.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 10, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

deadmarine,

Yon was scared shitless, as he wrote in his own account.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on February 10, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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