Inadvertently Cohen is making a good point about the lack of recognition and rewards given to people who do the heavy lifting that produces real goods and services in the country. The only recourse that these people have is to make a shitload of money like Gates or the Google founders. Otherwise these nerds do their own thing, living in dark cubicles of corporate America that pays much more to 6 feet blonde male MBAs whose main skills involve populating pre-programmed spreadsheets than to the people who actually design planes and computers and cars and software programs.

On another note, Washington Post should fire Richard Cohen for betraying so much ignorance about what 'reasoning' is.

As far as I know, you can take algebra in high school and fail it, but still graduate as long as your other grades/tests compensate for such a failure. So Cohen really doesn't have a point, unless he thinks algrebra should not be a required subject in school.

setting this silliness aside, Cohen's serious point isn't really whether algebra is useful or not, it's whether it should be required to graduate from high school. That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

That may be his point, Kevin, but it's cloaked in so much silliness -- I'd say so many layers of disgustingly anti-intellectual bullshit -- as to be completely obscured.

A screed like Cohen's doesn't deserve consideration of its "serious point." If he wanted to discuss a serious point, he could have written a serious column. "Algebra is useless" isn't it.

That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

Is this a serious question? The U.S. continues to fall behind the rest of the world in terms of education, and you want to know if the answer is to dumb down our schools even more?

If I had my way, calculus, physics, chemistry, and biology would all be requirements for a high school diploma. Would that lead to fewer people with high-school diplomas? Yes. But that's life.

, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout

A GED is an option.

What on earth do we award high school diplomas these days for, anyway? Turning 18?

Gee, thanks, Richard! That's mighty open-minded of you! But setting this silliness aside, Cohen's serious point isn't really whether algebra is useful or not, it's whether it should be required to graduate from high school. That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

If High School graduation is to mean anything, there must be standards. Ultimately, yeah, anywhere you draw the line, lots of people are going to argue about "well, shouldn't you make the standard one quantum more demanding?" or "shouldn't you make it one quantum less demanding?", and any of those requests, individually, is going to seem not unreasonable.

But you've got to ask, what is the value of the change?

And, frankly, algebra is largely basic problem solving. If you can handle elementary school word problems, you can probably handle algebra just fine if taught properly; if people aren't learning it, there is a problem in teaching (not necessarily a problem with the teachers -- it could be a problem with the way the schools are run which prevents the teachers from having a manageable environment to work with.)

Seems better to fix the problem than just to accept the failure.

I do think that basic algebra should be required to graduate, since almost any individual should be able to pass a basic algebra class, if even on a second pass. Start them in freshman year, and let them keep trying all four years if necessary. I'd accept the alternative of passing a "logic" class, one focused on real-world critical thinking and basic rhetoric. Of course, this "logic" class, one focused on critical thinking and basic rhetoric, should be required foremost, in a free country led by voting citizens.

Argh.

Math isn't just for engineers. Reporters--good ones, anyway--can't report simple facts about important stories without a basic level of mathematic literacy.

Remember the 2000 debates? George Bush stood on the stage and told some whoppers about his budget plans. Gore called him out on them. But were our big shot reporters able to sort it all out?

Ted Koppel, for one, admitted openly that all those numbers were just incomprehensible. So the media turned instead to reporting on earth tones and doggie pills.

Bah.

Lets see.......Bush is 100% ASSFACE! I know that's right!

if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout? I don't really have an opinion about this, but it's a serious question.

Close to a quarter of the population -- presumably including nearly all students unable to fathom algebra -- doesn't finish high school now. Why? That's the serious question.

Part of the reason people are "completely unable to fathom algebra" is because of this attitude- that it has no application to real life. There are many ways of teaching it that make it much more accessible. But when people like Cohen propagate such an ignorant view, it makes it acceptable to throw up your hands and say, "I just don't get math!" You can see that in his statement about not knowing how to do percentages- it's something some people are, if not proud of, at least willing to admit. How many people would be willing to tell others, "I just don't get that reading thing! But it doesn't matter, I only watch TV, so I don't need it!"

My take on the Cohen article, even though it's unsaid, is that the guy is just upset that education has dared to move into the future.

Botney for crying out loud. Botney. My biology teacher gave us an introduction into it. It was a day. Then he, to be honest who was a great mind for biology, said that it was a waste of bloody time. Memorizing scientific names...for what purpose? To make us look smart?

Cohen wants a population that looks and sounds smart...but is dumb as a box of rocks. Much like himself!

This is what happens when you tie the ability to live a decent life with being smart. It really illustrates the fundamental problem with meritocracies.

Richard aruges one fair point--that not everyone is a brilliant generalist, and your specialists shouldn't be screwed out of success because they aren't generalists. But really, he's just hairsplitting how you define "better" in a meritocracy.

Kevin takes on a different issue--the importance of not being a "high school dropout." If you're a dropout, you can't get a decent job doing anything--driving a bus, answering a phone in an office, whatever.

This is tied to a bigger issue--one's inability to do algebra shouldn't be a barrier to living a decent life. Similarly, one's inability to do math or do ANY mental exercise exceptionally well (or even in the top 30th percentile) shouldn't consign you to shit jobs and a lousy life.

Dumb people aren't less deserving of a decent life and good stuff than smart people are. The irredemable problem with a true meritocracy is that it says they are.

I don't know why they don't have a required course in logic instead of Algebra and Geometry in high school. It does not need to be symbolic logic, but any high school student who does not understand modus ponens and other basic principles of logic inside out should not be allowed to graduate. Then the likes of Richard Cohen will have no grounds to complain.

Come to think of it, in such a scenario they would not even be able to graduate to be in a position to write idiotic columns in national newspapers.

I can't say I'm surprised by Cohen's admission about percentages. In my travels around the world, I've come to realize that the level of education for many Americans approaches Third-World level. I've noticed that there is a palpable lack of respect for education in many parts of our country. Maybe that's why conservatives' slander of "pointy-head liberals" has been so effective for them.

Sure, I think his substantive point about requiring students to pass algebra to graduate high school is fine. However, he took the opportunity to claim intellectual superiority for the literati he imagines himself a part of.

There's more than a bit of "nerd-bashing" going on there, complete with idiotic stereotypes (nerds can't write, nerds can't locate deserts, etc.) I'm sure it was mostly tongue in cheek, but I for one won't take a ribbing from someone ("Barbie") who is the very definition of a pseudo-intellectual.

I guess it depends on one's position in life. I can see where knowing the location of the world's deserts might be pretty important in some job descriptions.

Most importantly, one should be able to calculate the yearly desertification rate, as a percentage of current desert size.

Requiring basic logic would not be an improvement for the type of student Cohen is talking about. The fact is that if you can't understand basic algebra then you aren't likely to do much better understanding the sort of logical puzzles that are part of any logic class. The truth is that on a conceptual level, which is really the root of the problem that students are having, basic math and basic logic are really the same thing.

I volunteer as a classroom tutor in Algebra 1 in a local middle school, as well as in a 4th grade math class. I have watched many, many kids struggle with Algebra. In my experience, almost anyone can master first year Algebra if they are willing to pay attention, follow directions and learn to solve problems in a step-by-step fashion, and this includes many special ed kids. One the other hand, someone who blows off the class isn't going to get it. It is my suspicion that Algebra is now required on the exit exam and by most California school districts as a proxy for determining who has the brains and self-control (and believe me, this is very hard for 8th and 9th graders) to pay attention long enough to master basic Algebra, because that is probably a very good predictor of who can cope with college and with a decent job.

As for Algebra's actual worth, obviously it is necessary for setting up and solving problems in science classes. It is great for solving certain kinds of puzzles and everyday problems that otherwise require sometimes tedious guess-and-check strategies. But that's only if you understand it. Like most people, I forgot Algebra and thus never used it for 35 years. Only when I became proficient again because of tutoring did I realize how helpful it could be. For example, the ratio method with cross-multiplication is the easiest way to solve percentage problems other than the "what is 10% of $20?" type.

Cohen is probably like students I have seen who develop a resistence and simply cannot understand it because they refuse to open their minds enough to do so. On the other hand, Algebra concepts are now bewing introduced in the 4th grade in California, and three years ago I taught two 4th graders most of first year Algebra, including factoring of quadratic equations, because they were eager to learn it.

Well, of course he's never used something at which he's incompetent. But, for instance, not being able to pass my driver's license test doesn't allow me to conclude that driving is useless.

Look, I certainly think that knowing math, and pushing students to master as much math as they can, is a very good thing.

I also think there's a correlation between mathematical ability and the general ability to analyze things. But it is a highly imperfect correlation. There really ARE people who are impressively good at reasoning in other areas who are simply wretched at math. Likewise, there are a goodly number of idiot savants in engineering and science who are utterly hopeless when it comes to moral or political reasoning -- just listen to them!

Why pretend to ourselves that the ability to do math well is essential to success in our society? Why pretend that mathematical ability is somehow perfectly correlated with other kinds of abilities? Why not instead recognize that, sometimes, just as with musical ability, a person is born "tone deaf" to certain concepts? Are such people to be treated as inconsequential in our society, despite impressive gifts elsewhere?

In the end, we have to organize our society so that the gifts people do possess are placed in positions where those gifts are important. Everything else is destructive, self-congratulatory prejudice.

Math isn't just for engineers. Reporters--good ones, anyway--can't report simple facts about important stories without a basic level of mathematic literacy.

The importance of this can't be underestimated. All those journalists who avoided any sort of math or science because they planned on becoming writers, like Cohen, have an inability to understand even the most basic principles of the topics they write about.

Algebra isn't particularly useful on an everyday basis, but it is a foundation for understanding almost anything else requiring math and statistics - e.g. science, healthcare, economics.

Anybody who thinks algebra is useless has never doubled a recipe, figured out how much four tires cost, decided how much sod to buy for that bare spot in the backyard, or worked out how much to save each month for the property tax bill due in July...

Geez.

I'm just glad to see that Richard was able to find a job. I'm sure it was challenging. Algebra, siance, even Botney, are all weighted heavily in favor of the smart kids. (sheeesh)

Theora - I gotta differ. While I believe dumb people should be afforded every opportunity to attempt to attain a decent life, they are by their abilities and merits, less deserving than smart people.

(that's what my smart friends tell ME, anyhow)

Karmakin,

What, in the name of God, is "botney"? Were you talking about botany? (And if you were, what's so damn useless about understanding plants?)

One can't learn basic statistics without knowing basic algebra. But I guess one can become a news reporter on a national scale without understanding basic statistics? Sufficient for he said/she said stenography I suppose.

Cranky

brent:

But basic logic can be taught by using examples from every day life that appear to be much less contrived than Algebra or Geometry problems.

Moreover, no one can seriously dispute the necessity of logic as a requirement for graduation from high school. Not even Richard Cohen.

The only problem will be that with a population that understands logic, Republicans can never be in power again. But not from my point of view.

if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout

If you find yourself completely unable to master anatomy, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a medical school dropout?

As a professional geographer, I'm appalled by the thought of someone who doesn't know where the Sahara is...but overall Kevin's right that understanding basic math concepts is more important in everyday life.
The thing about algebra that many people don't get is that you use it even if you don't realize you're using it. Sure, you might not be physically writing down things like "y = 5 + (x/6.5)^2" on a regular basis, but internally you're using it for things like basic economic decisions involving multiple variables (or at least you should be).

When our students fail... just lower the bar!

This is soooooo pathetic.

Let's see... hmm... should I learn BASIC math or should I learn BASIC geography? I know for certain that I can't learn both (even in the most simple and fundamental way)... so I must chose?

Again... this is soooooo pathetic.

I fear for the future of this country... and, by extension, the entire world.

Asserting that "Most of math can now be done by a computer or a calculator" is true, but if you can't parse a word problem into an equation, no calculator will help you.

There are plenty of people who make it through life functionally illiterate. Do they get to assert that reading doesn't matter and shouldn't be required to graduate HS? Removing it means that a lot of people who could do it, but find it difficult will just skip it. Many of them would have found it makes them better citizens and enriches their lives.

At the end of the day, I'd go with what the competition is doing (India, Korea, China) to set educational standards, not a happily ignorant columnist.

I call BULLSHIT on all you algebra advocates, and I can PROVE it.

TBROSZ is a fucking rocket scientist. His math skills are probably better than 99% of the people that read this blog.

Yet, his slavish devotion to all things Bush and Republican demonstrate convincingly that his logic, reasoning and critical thinking skills are about the same as a bag of rocks.

Reporters--good ones, anyway--can't report simple facts about important stories without a basic level of mathematic literacy.

Unfortunately, in the real world, we're stuck with reporters (on TV) whose primary skills are looking good (however their target audience visually cues on "trustworthy) and having a nice speaking voice, and (in print, and writing the copy for the TV "reporters") whose skills are the ability to take a press release, the responses from relevant interest groups, and fit them into a canned "neutral" format that avoids any attempt to determine the truth beyond "who said what".

Its not just mathematical literacy than the press lacks, but real competence in any of the fields they cover.

I'd accept the alternative of passing a "logic" class, one focused on real-world critical thinking and basic rhetoric. Of course, this "logic" class, one focused on critical thinking and basic rhetoric, should be required foremost, in a free country led by voting citizens.

I agree, and I also think that algebra is useful because it at least is an introduction to setting up equations and models for reasoning. I never liked algebra-- was mediocre in high school and only managed to get an A in college, by the skin of my teeth, because I was better at basic arithmetic than the TA was, which kept me engaged-- but it does teach one to think in ways that presumably help in real-life problem solving, even if quadratic equations aren't part of the process. I use geometry (and percentages) far more in everyday life than I've ever used algebra, but that doesn't mean that I don't use hypothetical factors, etc., when dealing with complicated situations... and algebra is really where most of us learn those methods in an orderly fashion.

I understand that algebra is being introduced much earlier than it was whan I was kid, and that's probably a good thing. Except for word problems, it was completely unknown to me & my peers until eighth grade at the earliest, and I don't think that's really a good age to start applying abstract concepts.

The object of high school, or college for that matter, is not simply to shove information into your head, it's to develop the skills required to learn something and think about it. When you're out in real life, you're going to need to learn things that are going to be difficult to learn. New things they don't teach in school, if you're going anywhere at all in life.

There's a difference between not being able to pass algebra, and not wanting to do the work to pass algebra. I hit a wall with calculus in high school, myself, but managed to pass it. Summer school reared its ugly head.

After you get out of school, you retain and learn what you need to know, and some of the rest goes by the wayside. I can locate the Sahara Desert, among many other things, but if you put an unlabeled political map of Africa on the table and told me to label every last country, I wouldn't be able to do it. That just doesn't come up that much in my work, and as with most people nowadays, the data is there when I need it.

Algebra, like science, teaches people how to think, even if they don't remember the formulas or the Periodic Table of Elements later on. Data you can look up. Analyzing it and drawing conclusions is the hard part.

"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house."

- "Notebooks of Lazarus Long," by Robert A. Heinlein

Well, since we require people to do their taxes, they should be able to handle basic mathematics. Or will the computers do that for them as well?

Figuring out what your 401(k) is doing, balancing your checkbook, understanding the costs of things like doing some sort of work on the house (taking measurements, etc.)......basic algebra, that is, simple problem-solving, are necessary. Yes, you should be able to do the basics.

Geometry is basic logic -- taking an abstract set of facts and making conclusions. It's not overhard, and it's very valuable.

Calculus, the language of higher mathematics, is not *necessary* but it's desirable to get an introduction to it.

To the good points above about reporters not being able to follow the math in a Presidential campaign -- being lazy -- all the more argument in a democracy to require that voters know *something* so they're not so easily bamboozled by charming rogues. And might even vote for the egghead sometime.

We have a brutish, celebrity culture, that celebrates force and rudeness rather, and disdains thought and introspection. Donald Trump should be a pariah but for some reason he's feted (while I think he's fetid).

"I'd venture to guess that calculating percentages is a whole lot more useful in modern adult life than knowing the location of the world's great deserts."

And geography gets dissed again. Sorry, Kevin - I understand your point; from a day-to-day practical matter, algebra likely is more useful than knowing the location of the world's greatest deserts (although given that the Sahara desert is the largest in the world, not knowing that it's located in northern Africa indicates an appaling lack of even the most rudimentary of basic geographic knowledge).

But, then again, much could be said about a lot of other things. Like history, politcs, literature, music, etc.

"Setting this silliness aside, Cohen's serious point isn't really whether algebra is useful or not, it's whether it should be required to graduate from high school. That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?"

Kevin, does this ambiguity extend to other courses or is it just the typical liberal arts majors disdain for math & science? Would you substitute history or English composition for algebra in the above quote?

Doesn't there have to be some specific standard for what constitutes a high school education? Humanities, math, science, the arts...all are necessary to a well-rounded education.

Dear SteveK,

I am glad I was eating clam chowder instead of drinking something when I read your post. The chowder makes a bigger mess, but it doesn't travel nearly as far when laughed out of my mouth, and managed to avoid the monitor.

People often do wonder what the point of many of the classes they took in school was. Undoubtedly, the practical application of many subjects seems unclear. And then, as life takes unexpected turns, many subjects turn out to have suprising relevance in ways both highly significant and trivial. Perhaps one becomes an investment banker, and suddenly needs to have a command of all manner of historic, geographic, etc facts. Or perhaps some other unexpected career opportunity presents itself that requires a sound grounding in the fundamentals of subjects that seemded exosteric when one was young. Or perhaps one just begins to actually take pleasure in delving into science or whatever as a hobby. In any case, education should be about opening doors to future opportunities and unexpected avenues for personal fulfillment...

If you find yourself completely unable to master reading, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

If you find yourself completely unable to master writing, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

If you find yourself completely unable to master spelling, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

If you find yourself completely unable to master arithmetic, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

OF COURSE YOU SHOULD. You shouldn't get a high school diploma just for showing up. Everyone, and I mean everyone that I knew in high school who had problems learning math didn't pay attention or work at it. Now I happened to like math and hate English classes, but I still had to read, interpret and express my thoughts in those classes. Should I have been allowed to graduate without taking English?

I think our educational system is becoming sub third world, mostly because I hear parents saying stupid things like this (oh, I can't do math) all the time. My experience is that it is not the schools failing our children, but their parents.

I think Cohen has just admitted that he has never paid taxes, tipped a waiter, compared mortgages or healthcare plans. If you're wealthy enough to hire an accountant, I doubt you need any math skills at all.

Richard Cohen is right. You can be a President without knowing Algebra.

"Algebra, like science, teaches people how to think, even if they don't remember the formulas or the Periodic Table of Elements later on. Data you can look up. Analyzing it and drawing conclusions is the hard part."

Many Americans don't want to think. That's no problem - there are plenty of thinking kids taking algebra, geometry, biology, physics in India and China who will be happy to hire you to work for them at Wendys!

I'd actually be okay if they taught a sort of 'everyday algebra' class for those not going into the sciences, that included how to apply it in statistics, economics, cooking, home finances, and other everyday logic/word problems.

Same with Geometry. And even languages (wouldn't it be usefull if everyone could at least exchange a few words of Spanish, Arabic and Chinese?)

Basically where they would teach just enough to get by as a member of society. I think we'd all be better off.

I will interject with a short essay I wrote a few years ago, on what happens when people don't know basic algebra.

Summary: math-ignorant salesmen almost drove a company to bankruptcy because they couldn't do simple calculations even with a calculator.

Algebra is nothing more than practicing logic using numbers. The fact that Mr. Cohen does not care for algebra should not suprise anyone.

If algebra isn't required for high school graduation, what would one require to graduate? In fact, we can add geometry in there too.

Algebra geometry aren't some high forms of mathematics, they are a level one needs to get through life reasonably well and they develop basic critical thinking skills.

There are different forms of algebra education available to those who are not good at it or having learning disabilities in most schools.

We require students to have a base knowledge to get a degree, algebra and geometry are as basic as it gets at the high school level.

Boy, would I love to be a contractor and get hired to remodel Cohen's house. With all sorts of complicated tile work and molding and whatnot, stuff with per-unit costs. I could pad the bill six ways to Sunday, and he -- not understanding algebra and having never, ever used it once since high school -- would never know the difference.

C'mon, people! The real motivating force behind Cohen's article is a sub rosa Freedom Fries-style purge of Arabic-rooted words and technologies from the public sphere!

Kevin,

Actually, in CA, the more serious question is whether you should be "condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout" if you can't read or write English. See Arturo González's piece in today's San Francisco Chronicle, [tried to link it, but evidently the URL was too long; go to www.sfgate.com/chronicle and you can find it] and ponder the case of Liliana Valenzuela, who has a 3.84 GPA and ranks 12th in a class of 413 students, despite not being able to read or write well enough to pass the test (which demands tenth-grade language skills) despite several attempts. There is no way this kid could have that GPA and that class rank unless someone has repeatedly given her at worst B's in English, despite her not actually mastering the material.

This is, quite simply, cruel. This girl, if graduated, is probably going to go to college and find that she can't cope with the material because she just plain doesn't know how to read well enough. And all along she's been assured that she's reading just fine.

González, by the way, is a lawyer involved in a suit to require CA to supply diplomas to all high school students who have passed all the required classes. Though why that's not also discriminatory I don't know. Just because you flunk history, you're condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high-school dropout? That's harsh.

That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

Absolutely.

That some people disagree is testament to the amount of entitlement young people feel nowadays. My wife for one encounters this daily in the college classes she teaches, where students apparently expect a good grade just because they showed up for class. College students, thinking that they've accomplished something just through perfect attendance! Don't get me wrong, showing up is great, but that's just the first step. The second step is actually using your goddamn brain.

We're growing a nation of fucking Barbie dolls. "Math is hard!"

True story - I was riding the subway in Washington DC a few years ago when two young men boarded the train. They looked to be in their mid twenties. One of them said to the other "Hey, is Wahington DC in the District of Columbia or in the state of Maryland?" The other one answered, "It's not in either one. It's in Virginia." I looked at the one who answered and he looked at me. I'm sure my expression, without any words, communicated that he was a horses ass. He then said to his friend, "I'm sorry, it's not in Virginia, it's in West Virginia." WE WERE IN WASHINGTON DC! The very next day a group of young construction workers (they were wearing hard hats) were talking about a land surveyor who was working at their job site. One said this about the surveyor, "Before this job he was working for the federal government out on the West Coast, or wherever the Appalachian Mountains are." Another one of them corrected him and said, The Appalachian Mountains are not on the West Coast, they're in Virginia and West Virginia and North Carolina." "OK," said the other one, "The midwest."

Couple that story with the fact that Richard Cohen "can't do percentages" - i.e. he doesn't know how much a 15% tip will cost him at the restaurant - and we have a scary society. I'm not really looking forward to the future.

I guess it depends on one's position in life. I can see where knowing the location of the world's deserts might be pretty important in some job descriptions.

Knowing where the Sahara is, is trivia. Knowing how to use a map/encyclopedia/CIA World Factbook to find the Sahara when you need to is a far more useful skill. Do you know where the Gibson desert is? The Thar? The Atacama? The Kyzyl-Kum?

I'd actually be okay if they taught a sort of 'everyday algebra' class for those not going into the sciences, that included how to apply it in statistics, economics, cooking, home finances, and other everyday logic/word problems.

Huh? It's not like the rules of algebra change depending on the problem domain. That's kind of the point. Was your high school algebra instructor unable to give you word problems from everyday contexts for some reason?

Now that all the news you need is on TV and talk radio, and the GPS in your car eliminates the need to read road signs, why should we insist that you have to be able to read in order to graduate from high school? Why don't we just hand a diploma to everyone who manages to get to 18? Or 16? Or 12?

Actually, I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as employers and college admissions officers know what a high school diploma really means, and both require employees and students to have somehow acquired actual knowledge of words, math, science, history and yes, geography since they're obviously not going to learn them in high school.

That some people disagree is testament to the amount of entitlement young people feel nowadays.

I think its at least as much a testament to the degree of entitlement that many parents feel today.

The point of Kevin's post is that there are a huge number of California kids who are in danger of being high school dropouts because they can't pass a TEST in algebra.

The subtext of that is that if you don't have a high school diploma, you are pretty much relegated to the underclass for the rest of your life. I think that's clearly a bad thing for everyone, not just the kids.

As to the assertion that it's just lack of hard work that makes it impossible for some kids to get algebra, that's bullshit. I'm on the other side of that. Algebra and Trig were easy for me when I was 10 or so, but I know some extremely bright and creative and functional and hard-working people who just don't have the brain for that kind of symbolic, abstracted thinking. It just ain't there, and trying to beat it into them with a stick (that is going to whack the rest of society in the butt, too) won't put it there.

Saying that you must be able to pass an algebra test (again, something entirely different than being able to use it) to avoid being relegated to the underclass for the rest of your life seems just a bit arbitrary.

I would suggest the following alternative. If these kids can't pass the test, require that they attend a class in algebra or logical reasoning or something similar, and that to pass the test, they have to have been at every class, and turned in every assignment with at least some attempt at completing it. That would indicate the ability to behave responsibly and at least try to do the required work. That tells me more about the person than their ability to learn algebra.

And I think it teaches them more about what it takes to be successful: show up and do the best you can. That actually works.

Richard Cohen just admitted he's an idiot - and we take his argument seriously?

A high school diploma is supposed to prove basic comptency in reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic. Algerbra is basic 'rithmetic. If you don't know it, you're missing one of the 3 "R's" and shouldn't have a diploma.

Richard Cohen himself is a great example of a great yapper who clearly hasn't learned basic logic. How many times does he leap from one unproven fact to another? How many times has written about elections and polls - and clearluy didn't have a clue about the numbers? Now we know why.

It's actually funny in a certain way. People feel perfectly comfortable saying " I don't know math." or "math is too hard, etc." In what other area are people so happy to trumpet their own ignorance or laziness?

Basic math is needed to understand basic concepts and logic. You don't know it, you don't understand basic concepts.

Maybe, just maybe, kids need different skills today than they did when Cohen went to high school.

You don't need math these days. When the customer says they want a hamburger and coke, you press the key with a picture of a hamburger, then press the key with a picture of coke. The total price and the change are calculated. The hard part is learning to say "You want fries with that?"
What we ought to do in our schools is teach the controversy. Polls show that less than 30 percent of the population believes that only algebraic functions should be taught, whereas two-thirds of Americans believe that transcendental functions should be taught also--let the students decide!

You know, no Ancient Greek, not Aristotle or Plato or Socrates, knew a single thing about algebra, because, well, it hadn't been invented yet. And the geometry was nothing more than Euclid -- pretty much at most what is covered in HS geometry.

Were they one and all bad at reasoning?

Lamonte,

A commenter on another blog reported a few days ago that a high school student he was tutoring was unable to "compute" 2% of 100 without using a calculator. What can you say?

As for tips, I always use 1/6 rather than 15%, not that it makes much difference. I think early on one of my parents must have told me that was the rule, and it stuck.

As for tips, I always use 1/6 rather than 15%, not that it makes much difference. I think early on one of my parents must have told me that was the rule, and it stuck.

You should tip 20%.

It improves calculations and human relations.

Only three percent of what we learn in school is useful. Education is for educators, and its purpose is pre-employment screening on behalf of the education/human-resource complex.

The subtext of that is that if you don't have a high school diploma, you are pretty much relegated to the underclass for the rest of your life.

Inasmuch as that is true, that is the problem, not the specific requirements of the high school diploma. So trying to fix it by weakening the high school diploma until it is meaningless is not the solution -- if you are going to do that to solve the problem, you might as well not have high school diplomas at all.

Somehow I actually made it all the way through calculus in high school, and even tested out of one required math class in college. So I guess I did retain something from it, even though I was totally confused most of the time.

Anyway, I don't know that algebra should be required, basic arithmetic is much more useful for most of us in the real world. Maybe I do use what I learned in algebra and calculus, a way of thinking or whatever, and I just don't know it.

The thing that bothers me much more was being required to take math and science courses in college, which cost me a lot of money, and had nothing to do with my major. It wasn't until my junior year that I was finally taking all courses in subjects that I actually wanted to study.

The California Exit Exam is just eighth grade level pre-algebra. Arturo Gonzalez is still suing the state on behalf of those who can't pass.

No one who makes the statement that 'the Laffer curve is real, though no one knows its shape or how many peaks it has' should be allowed to graduate second grade.

Samuel Knight:

A high school diploma is supposed to prove basic comptency in reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic. Algerbra is basic 'rithmetic. If you don't know it, you're missing one of the 3 "R's" and shouldn't have a diploma.

That's really easy to say for someone who has a diploma and was blessed with the ability to think abstractly about mathematical constructs.

"Hey, if you can't think like I can, look forward to unemployment and disability for the rest of your life. What do I care? At least my standards for your understanding will be upheld."

Crap. This is much more important than that. A hgih school diploma is a critical piece of paper without which it is pretty much impossible to function in today's world.

And if someone can't pass a test in Algebra despite multiple attempts, then their brain just ain't gonna get it. And I don't think that says their lives should just be discarded.

We need an alternative other than "Fuck off and die." And I don't think we should dumb things down, but we gotta find another way to help these kids learn, because that's the point isn't it?

I guess the other point is survival of the fittest, but I don't think abstract mathematical thinking ability is an aboslute marker for fitness.

And these kids just aren't going to go away into the bush and die. This isn't like not being able to hunt antelope. They are going to hang around, many of them jobless, discouraged, and angry. That's a good thing?

frankly0,

Were [the ancient Greeks] one and all bad at reasoning?

[snark] Of course they were, the same way they mysteriously forgot the principal battles of WWII.[/snark] No one is asking high school students to invent algebra, any more than they're asking them to write Shakespeare.

Before we can decide on whether or not a competency in algebra should be required to graduate high school, we should decide on what it means to society to be a high school graduate. Why do we, as a society, invest in public education? What return do we want for that investment? Is a compentency in algebra a requisite return on our investment?

Algebra?...math?...history major!!!!!

For goodness sake, are we becoming a nation of weenies? Yes, math is hard for some. Chemistry is hard for others. Latin almost drove me to the edge. However, the process of recognizing the fear, overcoming the frustration, doing what it takes to get to the aHA moment and learning how to hang in there are invaluable life lessons.

These prepare us to face the other really tough times coming in our lives, both intellectual and emotional. So suck it up and enjoy the challenge.

At 66 I'm taking Spanish. I'm the least talented and experienced in the class....hard on my ego as a retired professor but great fun to have a new challenge and getting closer to the aHA moment!

More idiocy from the egalitarianism-uber-alles crowd.

That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout?

If passing algebra is required to graduate?

Yes.

What does "high school dropout" mean? It means that you did not graduate from high school. That you did not pass enough classes to do so. If Algebra is required to graduate, and you can't hack it, then you don't graduate.

If we simply wave a hand and graduate everyone, then a high school diploma means nothing. Literally nothing. Everyone gets one. The having of one is meaningless.

The purpose of any degree is not to make the holder of the degree feel good. It is to indicate that the holder of the degree has, legitimately, accomplished a certain series of tasks and can reasonably be inferred to have a certain set of skills.

I'm sorry if that makes those who do not have those skills feel badly, but the bottom line is they do not have those skills, and that's what the damn diploma means.

Should algebra be required to graduate from high school?

Absolutely. That, however, is a matter of opinion.

So Cohen and Barbie are the same person?

No one is asking high school students to invent algebra, any more than they're asking them to write Shakespeare.

But they ARE demanding that people master something the ignorance of which, demonstrably, had NO effect on the reasoning abilities of some of the greatest philosophers of all time.

Did it ever occur to you that columnists write stupid shit merely because: They have a deadline, a column due, and no better ideas of what to write?

Just like some bloggers, some of the time.

Myron,

Only three percent of what we learn in school is useful.

Don't tell that to Richard Cohen; he can't do percentages.

(Just getting in the lame-but too-obvious joke before anyone else does.)

Anyway, I don't know that algebra should be required, basic arithmetic is much more useful for most of us in the real world.

Even granting, arguendo, that this is true, it is irrelevant unless you assume that the alternatives are "learn basic arithmetic" or "learn algebra".

Gee, thanks, Richard! That's mighty open-minded of you! But setting this silliness aside, Cohen's serious point isn't really whether algebra is useful or not, it's whether it should be required to graduate from high school. That is, if you find yourself completely unable to fathom algebra, should you be condemned to spend the rest of your life as a high school dropout? I don't really have an opinion about this, but it's a serious question.

You're a moron Drum.

Absolutely, let's graduate people who will go to college or into life with a world of possibilities cut off for them, possibilities they will never know exist, because Drum thinks there's a legion of people who just can't possibly learn algebra.

Let's move them along, let's "graduate" them. The GOP needs fresh blood.

But they ARE demanding that people master something the ignorance of which, demonstrably, had NO effect on the reasoning abilities of some of the greatest philosophers of all time.

You are abusing the word "demonstrably". Or are you claiming that you can prove, somehow, that Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, et al. would not have been even better when it came to reasoning had they been exposed to algebra?

cmdnicely:

Inasmuch as that is true, that is the problem, not the specific requirements of the high school diploma. So trying to fix it by weakening the high school diploma until it is meaningless is not the solution -- if you are going to do that to solve the problem, you might as well not have high school diplomas at all.

Agreed. I'm not suggesting we weaken it. I'm suggesting we take individual differences into account and be more flexible in the requirements, and be more realistic about what it takes to function, and more aware of the consequences of discarding the lives of a lot of kids.

That takes an intelligent approach to the problem, not just arbitrary standards that may or may not be functionally correct, but are easy to test for.

As another commetor pointed out, high school is just pre-screening. If that's the case, let's teach showing up and working and sincerely trying tolearn, and make that a requirement. The trouble is that's not easily testable, and it's all about testing. It's the German factory model.

Again, some peoples' brains just don't do abstract symbolic thining very well. But they do other stuff just fine. My wife is a briliant and accomplihsed composer and musician, and has a electronic music setup of computers and gear that looks like something out of Star Wars but she still has trouble computing percentages for tipping.

Peoples' brains are different and unique. They don't always meet our standards. They are still worth something. It may not be simple to determine and nurture that worth, but it benefits all of us to do so.

And if someone can't pass a test in Algebra despite multiple attempts, then their brain just ain't gonna get it.

Strange, my mother couldn't despite multiple tests in high school. She got through it quite well -- not without lots of work and frustration, but still with good grades and understanding -- when she went to the community college in here 40's.

And I've known many other people that couldn't get through algebra despite multiple attempts until they found the right class, right tutor, or otherwise right learning environment.

I doubt there are very many people who are unable to learn algebra. There are lots of people whose abilities aren't being taught to.

The solution is not for society to accept that we are failing to teach those people.

"knowing the location of the world's great deserts"

Well, I had no problem with algebra, and I know where to find Baked Alaska.

Or are you claiming that you can prove, somehow, that Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, et al. would not have been even better when it came to reasoning had they been exposed to algebra?

How about finding me a contemporary philosopher more capable than Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates? Failing that, don't you think my point is pretty well made?

Agreed. I'm not suggesting we weaken it. I'm suggesting we take individual differences into account and be more flexible in the requirements, and be more realistic about what it takes to function, and more aware of the consequences of discarding the lives of a lot of kids.

No, see, this is where I disagree.

Setting the standards for a high school diploma ought to have nothing to do with "discarding the lives of a lot of kids".

If it does, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way the diploma is treated that cannot be corrected, at all, by changing what the requirements are for the diploma, whether by weakening them or "making them more flexible" or anything else, because the problem isn't with the standards at all.

One of the great virtues of studying algebra, and math in general, is that bullshitting is completely meaningless. You either got the right answer or you didn't. Emotionally, you must be prepared to accept failure, because it's going to be in your face.

This is why lots of people don't like it. It reminds them of their failure, failure that is unambiguous. That's pretty uncomfortable.

This is like my nephew paying H&R Block $75 so he can get his $1000 refund now rather than in a few weeks. It never occured to him that he just paid them 7.5% of his refund to get it early.

He basically paid H&R Block 90%+ annualized interest on that $1000 he borrowed from them.

You see this over and over with the poor and uneducated at rent-a-centers and the like. We DON'T need a dumber America so that smart, unethical types can take advantage of them.

The president's budget is published...and met with a collective yawn. Deeply troubling, as what gets funded and what doesn't affects people far more than, say, same-sex unions. Not surprising, however, given the general level of mathematical illiteracy in the nation.

I can't believe someone who thinks average citizens should be involved in informing public policy can even suggest that algebra (and math in general) is unimportant.

frankly0,

But they ARE demanding that people master something the ignorance of which, demonstrably, had NO effect on the reasoning abilities of some of the greatest philosophers of all time.

I wouldn't quite say that; I imagine that a Euclid who did know algebra would have done even greater things than he in fact did. More tools are not always an advantage, but most of the time they are. And algebra is a powerful tool.

Yes, some commenters have been laying stress on the ability of algebra to improve "reasoning skills" and the like. I don't see it like that, exactly. I think there are certain things important to know, and among them are human accomplishments. I think people should know algebra in the same way that they should know Shakespeare and know the great cathedrals and know the great works of art and music and science and engineering. All this is our legacy. Humanity made it — individual human beings made it — and every person has to understand how precious it is.

And they need to know the worst, too — what we and others have done, what we and others have left undone. Would you countenance an exit exam about world history with that focus?

My wife is a briliant and accomplihsed composer and musician, and has a electronic music setup of computers and gear that looks like something out of Star Wars but she still has trouble computing percentages for tipping.

That's actually interesting, because apparently musical & mathematical abilities are closely related in how the brain works. Then again, percentages are just arithmetic, not higher mathematics, and I've known quite a few people (similar to the college algebra TA I mentioned above) who actually had a good understanding of higher mathematical concepts, but difficulties with basic arithmetic made subjects like calculus unappealing or impossible. I guess that situation would be like undertaking musical composition or performance without the ability to read music, in that it might be possible to excel without the basic tools, but it would take additional talent and enthusiasm to overcome that lack.

cmdnicely:

I agree. The problem is not with the standards. It's with the whole system. Or i'm probalby missing your point, so enlighten me by expanding on what you said.

But we can some drowning kids here, almost literally. While we chat, their boats are sinking. And it's a big group, mainly already in the poorer schools and nighborhoods. What do we do now?

I am not for lowering standards, if anything I'm for raising them. But this particular standard is so arbitrary, and such a hot button for all the technocrats and engineering types out there...and like I said, algebra is easy for me, always was.

How about finding me a contemporary philosopher more capable than Aristotle, Plato, or Socrates?

"More capable" is hardly objectively definable. Newton and Galileo -- who you will note were exposed to algebra -- were quite a bit better at reasoning about physical phenomena than Aristotle. I'd take Rawls over any of them when it comes to moral reasoning. I'd take any of a number of political philosophers of the last several centuries, most of whom had probably encountered algebra, over any of them where it comes to reasoning about human societies (and not just ones I agree with) -- from Hobbes to Locke to Marx to...

Now, of course, given that all of them lived in a world influenced by Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates, its impossible to isolate the effect to compare them, and, anyway, any such comparison is inherently subjective. Which, of course, further undermines your claim that the earlier ones were "demonstrably" unaffected by absence of exposure to algebra.

OTOH, assuming you were exposed to algebra, I think your whole line of argument here demonstrates that exposure to algebra is certainly no guarantee of even minimal reasoning skills outside of its bounds.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I've always thought that minimal proficiency at basic mathematics (algebra, geometry and trig for high school, calculus for college) should be an absolute requirement for graduation. People that can't handle these are either too stupid or too lazy to deserve to graduate.

And I'm throwing down the BS card on Cohen's "I knew this girl that aced math but couldn't locate the Sahara desert" crap. My general experience has been that people that are good at math are usually pretty good at the other subjects as well; the same cannot be said about people that are good in English or history or whatever. Seriously, I bet I know 50 "I love Shakespeare, but I can't solve a binomial equation" people for every single "I think I'll use the shell method to integrate, but I'm not quite sure what a complete sentence is."

(And, by the way, I was a triple major in college, with two of the degrees in theoretical mathematics and American history. The other was management science, and I'm current a lawyer.)

Algebra is Arabic. The DoHS is gonna outlaw it.

Some things that girls have used Algebra to do "in real life":

Sail around the world.

Build the coolest houses, ever.

Help to find a cure for Cohen's brain damage.

Make a shitload of money.

Just sayin'

latts:

I guess that situation would be like undertaking musical composition or performance without the ability to read music, in that it might be possible to excel without the basic tools, but it would take additional talent and enthusiasm to overcome that lack.

Something like that. My wife has been composing since she was 8. And she's a great sound engineer, and was doing electronic music with the first syntehsizers. But basic math eludes her. And she went to one of the best private schools in Manhattan, and was a hard worker.

In many, cases, it ain't effort.

waterfowl,

Mostly I agree with your latest post.

I DO think that students today absolutely should be put under a good deal of pressure to master algebra and other kinds of basic math. The thing that I DO find rather repulsive in Cohen's column is his clear contempt for math, and attitude which I find simply arrogant and dismissive in the extreme. The one thing that a mathematically impaired person requires above all else is a sense of humility, and of their own limits -- just as the many idiot savants who find ready places in our engineering and scientific enterprises should with real humility know what they don't know about many other areas of human knowledge.

Yet, while students should be pushed to master what mathematics they can, there most definitely exist people who have a complete blind spot to mathematics, but who are brilliant at many other things. It would be tragic if such people could not make their way in our society.

OTOH, assuming you were exposed to algebra, I think your whole line of argument here demonstrates that exposure to algebra is certainly no guarantee of even minimal reasoning skills outside of its bounds.

What kind of childish cheapshot is this?

frankly0: many idiot savants who find ready places in our engineering and scientific enterprises

Hey, who you calling a savant?

I've noticed how much fun it is to judge others for not being as smart and quick to learn as I am... until I notice others much smarter and quicker than I judging me.

Then, not so much fun.

--
HRlaughed

Maybe I'm crazy, but I've always thought that minimal proficiency at basic mathematics (algebra, geometry and trig for high school, calculus for college) should be an absolute requirement for graduation. People that can't handle these are either too stupid or too lazy to deserve to graduate.

I just can't live my life with that attitude. Maybe you can. But it really doesn't help anyone, as far as I can tell.

If, as someone suggests, we're just trying to move people through, and make some attempt at screening, then fine, you miss, you lose.

But from a purely utilitarian point of view (though I'm probably misstating that), it doesn't help society as a whole to have a lot more high school dropouts. It just doesn't. Well, that's not true, more unemployment does help the corporations to keep wages down.

But we can some drowning kids here, almost literally. While we chat, their boats are sinking. And it's a big group, mainly already in the poorer schools and nighborhoods. What do we do now?

We can do what to some drowning kids?

Look, first, I can't accept (though for the sake of argument I've granted it previously) the premise that lack of a diploma is a virtual death sentence. I've known people without diplomas that have gotten decent jobs based on demonstrated relevant skills. Sometimes, they've had trouble keeping them because of, e.g., drug or behavior problems that were part of what kept them from getting the diploma in the first place. Sometimes, especially when they didn't have those kinds of problems, they've succeeded quite well in them.

So I don't accept the premise that if we don't start handing out diplomas, we are generally condemning people permanently even if nothing changes. Further, to the extent that diplomas are treated as too important, the solution is to change how they are treated. No, that's not easy, but its the only solution that addresses the problem.

I am not for lowering standards, if anything I'm for raising them. But this particular standard is so arbitrary, and such a hot button for all the technocrats and engineering types out there...

Its no more arbitrary than any other standard. Frankly, aside from basic language proficiency, (and "how to deal with boneheads in authority", which isn't really a formal part of the curriculum) I don't think there is anything taught typically at the high school level that I've made as much use of as algebra in non-technical aspects of my life (like, say, planning household finances, dealing with the kitchen, etc.)

What kind of childish cheapshot is this?

I wasn't aware there were whole categories of different kinds of childish cheapshots; if I were going to categorize it I'd call it "gratuitous application of the subject matter of the debate to frame a closing insult to the opponent."

But I suppose that was probably meant as a rhetorical question.