Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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February 17, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

TARGET PRACTICE....I think that Shotgungate has pretty much run its course, but I still have to recommend this video to you. It features kick boxing dummies, dead chickens, and watermelons all being filled with with #7.5 birdshot from various distances. The source is, um, not entirely unimpeachable, but it's still fun for the whole family.

Kevin Drum 7:47 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (73)

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Check out the latest Political Comics from H.L.

Harry Apologizes To Dick

See it at.
The Hollywood Liberal

Posted by: Jack on February 17, 2006 at 8:03 PM | PERMALINK

That's a cool video.

Reminds me a bit of the way Richard Feynman debunked the O-Ring excuses NASA management tried to fob off on the public.

Or, as Cheney might put it, What do you believe, me or your own eyes?

Posted by: frankly0 on February 17, 2006 at 8:07 PM | PERMALINK

And given his pathetic apology TO Cheney, Whittington should walk around with a sign saying "Cheney's Bitch".

Posted by: frankly0 on February 17, 2006 at 8:09 PM | PERMALINK

Another amateur test shooting film here.

Yeah, conspiracy nuts out there, Cheney lied, Whittington lied, the Secret Service lied, the sheriff and his crew lied, and everybody at the hospital lied. They're ALL in on it!

And they ALL look in your windows at night when you sleep.

Posted by: tbrosz on February 17, 2006 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, I've hunted with 20 and 12 gauge shotguns, with different gauges of birdshot, and it's pretty obvious that the wounds were inflicted from MUCH closer than 30 yards. Even with the barrel fully choked down, the spread is much much larger at 30 yards. Twenty feet sounds about right.

Friends and I used to get about 75 yards apart, and actually shoot at each other on purpose, aiming above and letting the pellets arch across to fall on top of the other person, who'd close their eyes and duck down.

Good fun. And that's not the dumbest thing we did.

Posted by: luci on February 17, 2006 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

CHENEY'S RECKLESS 270-DEGREE SPIN

During his interview with Hume, Cheney clearly said that he was hunting near one other hunter (Pam Willeford) and a guide (probably Bo Hubert) and/or an "outrigger." Cheney was on the "far right." (Or so he thought. In fact, Whittington was to his right.) The setting sun was to their right (which can only mean they were facing south).

According to Cheney, a quail then went up and flew towards the west. Cheney took aim at the bird, then pulled the trigger, shooting towards the sun (the west), inadvertently hitting Whittington.

Persons hearing this probably assumed (reasonably) that Cheney had, while following the bird, simply turned to his right and spun about 90 degress before pulling the trigger.

But look at the police report that summarizes Deputy San Miguel's brief 2/12/06 interview of Cheney. (It's posted at the Smoking Gun Web site.) That report indicates that Cheney told the deputy that the quail went up "behind" him, and he then turned in a "counter clockwise direction" before shooting at the bird.

Assuming Cheney told Hume the truth, and assuming Cheney told the deputy the truth, and assuming the deputy accurately wrote what Cheney told him, then the only logical conclusion we can come to is that Cheney, while following the quail, turned to his left, then spun around about 270 degrees before shooting low towards the west, striking Whittington.

Such a 270-degree spin would be very reckless. It would be a gross violation of an important hunting-safety rule: don't spin to the point where you are pointing your weapon at your fellow hunters. As Cheney made the 270-degree spin, he almost certainly pointed his loaded gun at Willeford and the guide and/or outrigger, thus placing them in danger, at least momentarily.

An experienced hunter would not act this way unless he were a) drunk, b) an idiot, or c) a drunken idiot.

I like the image of a drunken, orange-clad, 65-year-old whirling dervish, spinning nearly in a complete circle while holding a loaded shotgun, making himself dizzy, then squeezing off a low shot into the setting sun.

If the media were to embed this image in the minds of the public, it would hurt Cheney, especially amoung hunters, most of whom are very safety conscious.

Posted by: moron on February 17, 2006 at 8:28 PM | PERMALINK

Christ, tbrosz, I'd rather believe the perfectly logical and all-too-human scenario that a powerful, petulant man is using every resource at his disposal to avoid the consequences of a grotesquely stupid mistake. It may be despicable, and the cowardice of those who aid and abet may deserve condemnation from all us little people, but at least it's logical and somewhere near the world as we unfortunately know it. —Otherwise, I'd have to join you in believing the laws of physics and human nature have through lockstep Stalinist discipline upended themselves solely out of semi-nutty Cheney hatred.

Posted by: Kip Manley on February 17, 2006 at 8:43 PM | PERMALINK

The Republicans successfully changed the focus from Cheney avoiding the police on Saturday night to getting the facts straight. Instead of ducking an alcolhol test, he's gathering facts like any good citizen should. The Wurlitzer strikes again.

Posted by: Hedley Lamarr on February 17, 2006 at 8:52 PM | PERMALINK

Why has this matter run it course? I'm still waiting to hear an explanation as to what the VP of morality, champion of religiosity and over all paragon of virtue was doing on a hunting trip with a woman other than his wife? Do you think the republicans would let this story rest if they smelled a salacious tidbit they could damage democrats with? This is politics! Like it or not, this is how you win elections!

Posted by: Moral Mike on February 17, 2006 at 8:57 PM | PERMALINK

That's Alex Jones, local nut here in Austin who hosts a very entertaining show on public access. From his show I've learned that the UN is putting chemicals in Diet Coke to give us all cancer and the every politician belongs to a secret society that gets together on a yearly basis to sodomize little boys.

Posted by: Josh on February 17, 2006 at 9:00 PM | PERMALINK


TBROSZ: Yeah, conspiracy nuts out there, Cheney lied, Whittington lied, the Secret Service lied, the sheriff and his crew lied, and everybody at the hospital lied.
They're ALL in on it!

Where are these lies. Okay, so you think they all told the truth. But where is it? None of the parties in your list have told any real particulars about the event.

This is no lie: If I shot a hunting partner in the face and chest with a shotgun, I would not be allowed to wait until the next day before a law enforcement officer could even see me in person.

You mentioned the hospital staff. They have offered only "no comment" concerning matters relevant to whether there has been a cover-up in this case. They will not say how many pellets struck the victim. They will not disclose his B.A.C. You may be sure that if the details matched Cheney's story (via Katharine Armstrong), the administration would have been eager to release them.

Just as in every action of the current administration, if you make the assumption that they are lying and then extrapolate what might be their behavior under the set of circumstances which we know, it is always a perfect fit. In other words, if they have something to cover up, would they wait a day before announcing the accident? Well, yeah. If Cheney was drunk, would he avoid being interviewed by the police? Sure, if he could get away with it.

This formula works for every thing they do with absolute accuracy. Assume they're lying. Predict what a liar would have done. Note how that prediction matches their actions. In fact, you can put this formula to use for the entirety of Bush's life. I have yet to see an instance when Bush told the truth about any matter of substance. He is classic.


Posted by: jayarbee on February 17, 2006 at 9:07 PM | PERMALINK

luci or another hunter:

What does it mean to "choke down" on a shotgun barrel?

With fingers innocent of triggers,

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 17, 2006 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

Off topic, but not really:

On CNN's Larry King just now, Carl Berstein is the man! "The system is corrupt, thoroughly corrupt. It's all about money. It's never about public interest."

Posted by: jayarbee on February 17, 2006 at 9:54 PM | PERMALINK

They let that lawyer loose. Better call Dick and go a hunting.

Posted by: Matt on February 17, 2006 at 9:55 PM | PERMALINK

rmck1,

A choke is a constriction at the end of the barrel that serves to narrow the spread of the shot. That's it.

Posted by: MN Politics Guru on February 17, 2006 at 9:57 PM | PERMALINK

"Such a 270-degree spin would be very reckless."

You can shoot three times as many lawyers with a 270 turn than with a 90 turn. Did Dick have an automatic?

Posted by: Matt on February 17, 2006 at 10:01 PM | PERMALINK

One Cheney joke for the road.

Q: What do Bill Clinton and Dick Cheney have in common?

A: They each blew a load in a supporter's face.

Posted by: Eric the Red on February 17, 2006 at 10:03 PM | PERMALINK

What else do you guys want?

The victim has profusely apologized to the shooter. The balance of the cosmos has been restored to the perfect state that it was in before the shooting. That's good enough for me. You all should be satisfied too.

Posted by: lib on February 17, 2006 at 10:06 PM | PERMALINK

Josh said,

"That's Alex Jones, local nut here in Austin who hosts a very entertaining show on public access. From his show I've learned that the UN is putting chemicals in Diet Coke to give us all cancer and the every politician belongs to a secret society that gets together on a yearly basis to sodomize little boys. "

Before using this as "proof" you really should look at some of the stuff this wackjob says. If you think he's right in this instance, then we are in fact a nation governed by a secret society that has existed since the knights templar through the free-masons, and he has all of the same proof you use for this article.

Posted by: wickedpinto on February 17, 2006 at 10:15 PM | PERMALINK

Alex's video is a riot. I used to know the guy a little back in Austin days. He's very dedicated and he did some good work on Waco. His reports on Bohemian Grove are pretty funny. But he's scattered too, much like birdshot at 30 yds and with a prickly ego like Mike Ruppert's -- a defensiveness common to fringe scandal investigators. You can catch Alex these days on XM satellite radio.

Here's the problem I have with all this:

The fallout from the Bush administration is constant and heavy and dangerous. The Cheney incident is the very least of it. Much more important is (for example) Kevin's earlier post about l'affaire Rosen/Weissman and its potential for real trouble.

Wait: I certainly wouldn't say Cheney aimed the pellets at Harry Whittington to distract us from the real action, but it's amazing how easily we on the left deflect our attention towards the latest mini-drama -- the naked, defrosted rock cornish game hen from HEB, impaled on a stake, being shot at by Alex Jones. Better we pay attention to what's really happening: the deliberate erosion of everything we ever thought important and honorable about this country.

Posted by: PW on February 17, 2006 at 10:18 PM | PERMALINK

The victim has profusely apologized to the shooter. The balance of the cosmos has been restored to the perfect state that it was in before the shooting.

Given that we now inhabit a universe in which up is down, hell, why not?

Posted by: frankly0 on February 17, 2006 at 10:19 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, so that's Alex Jones. I was expecting skinny and nerdy. He sounds millimetrically challenged but what he says about the spread of the shot seems about right. And, what happened to the wad might be a good question to ask.

Posted by: phil on February 17, 2006 at 10:22 PM | PERMALINK

See PW? If you look at the post I left on the source site, I was offended that Washington monthly eager to point out how cheney shot the guy point blank was disgraceful.

I'm generaly a republican, but I like reading TWM cuz while I disagree, they aren't wacko, a real damage was done cuz of that.

Also, if you watch the Vid of the other guy that's listed above, you will see that for Whittington to have been hit in the way he did, he was neither watching the shooter (an important rule) but he was only hit in a small quadrant of his body, which proves that cheney was aiming some degree above Whittington.

Cheney isn't a murderer, move on to a real argument, like why in the hell does the VP have broad authority to declassify?

Posted by: wickedpinto on February 17, 2006 at 10:23 PM | PERMALINK

"And, what happened to the wad might be a good question to ask."

No it isn't. The wad is like a Sabot, it is designed to be insignificant after it escapes the barrel. The thing is that it's a wack job raising the question based on shooting a cardboard box. He doesn't mention the wad at the reported distance, but "scientificaly" BAH! shows that the wad is important at PBR "experiments"

Really, talk about something real, not about this wacko.

Posted by: wickedpinto on February 17, 2006 at 10:26 PM | PERMALINK

Alex Jones reveals more black helicopters in a day than any of you will in an entire lifetime....all put together! (snark) He helps keep Austin weird.

Awwww, Friday night at the monthly!

Posted by: elmo on February 17, 2006 at 10:34 PM | PERMALINK

wickedpinto >"...why in the hell does the VP have broad authority to declassify?"

Who says he DOES ???

having said that I`ll NOTE he might possibly claim said bureaucratic function through something called a "chain of authority" which might have some basis in the Executive Orders & related statutes

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H. L. Mencke

Posted by: daCascadian on February 17, 2006 at 10:36 PM | PERMALINK

This site might give up on QuailGate, but I'm not. Feel free to register at TheQuailHunter.com and post your news and analyses.

Posted by: TLB on February 17, 2006 at 10:50 PM | PERMALINK

My understanding is that Cheney was "given" the authority to declassify in a 2003 executive order. However, there's a "frame" being set up that the broad authority was given to Cheney right after 9/11-- bunker days -- when the alleged threats required that presidential authority and succession be assured. All of this is presented as a series of practical, utilitarian measures, something which I think we'd be damnfools to accept.

PS Alex is not on XM satellite. He must have been doing a guest spot when I noticed his name on a list in December or Jan.

Posted by: PW on February 17, 2006 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

Looks like the persistent rumors that Cheney shot JFK can now be laid to rest.

Posted by: ogmb on February 17, 2006 at 10:59 PM | PERMALINK

The reading of the executive order could be considered as subordinate to the president, however, the seperation and language, grants that the VP is almost equal to the president in the ability to declassify information. Granted, since the VP is listed as a secondary, and the department heads as tertiary, who is to define what is not with the VP perview? If the order listed that the VP has the authority to declassify information in terms of responsibilities granted by the President that is different.

As for the argument that "classification" as described within the order is any different from "declassification" is just plain retarded. Classification is the definition of who has access to what. If you classify something as secret, you can re-classify it, which is just a classification that has been modified, or in other words, a "Classification" then you can take material classified "secret" then re-"classify" it into confidential, or, you can re-"classify" it as public. The power to "classify" is the ability to define what class some information to belongs too. be it up or down.

Granted, in all likelihood a VP who wants to avoid the cheney treatment, and I think cheney did avoid it, would always ensure that he is granted the authority by the Pres directly, but the Executive order is troubling, because while the VP is technicaly elected, he is in fact a coat rider of the president. THAT is my problem with it.

Posted by: wickedpinto on February 17, 2006 at 11:04 PM | PERMALINK

All of this said, much of it on my part, I think that The Washington Monthly should research the source, apologize for this "cheney shot a man just to watch him die" story and link, then turn to the subjects of matter, and validity.

Posted by: wickedpinto on February 17, 2006 at 11:06 PM | PERMALINK

That watermelon should really apologize to Alex Jones for what it's put Alex and his family through.

Patrick Meighan
Venice, CA

Posted by: Patrick Meighan on February 17, 2006 at 11:06 PM | PERMALINK

Calling crime scene reconstruction expert Dan Burton.

And they ALL look in your windows at night when you sleep. Posted by: tbrosz
You'd be right next to them mumbling that everything they do is justified. Posted by: Mike on February 17, 2006 at 11:09 PM | PERMALINK

While you can all call Alex's penchant toward taking the most logically improbable answer to any given question somewhat unbalanced, how do you explain the resulting shot spreads? It's a test any of us can make on our own so are we all crazy when we see that the closer the discharge is to the target the smaller the cluster? Anybody with even a limited familiarity with shotguns could see that the pellet grouping that was reported on Whittington was just not possible from 30 yards away.

Unless of course you have some 'magic grouping' theory you want to propose?

Posted by: Eric Paulsen on February 17, 2006 at 11:12 PM | PERMALINK

Eric the Red: Best joke of the entire episode

Posted by: Matt on February 17, 2006 at 11:28 PM | PERMALINK

"..he sounds millimetrically challenged but what he says about the spread of the shot seems about right."

Yup,
Love him or hate him Alex is often right.

Posted by: anon on February 17, 2006 at 11:38 PM | PERMALINK

And they ALL look in your windows at night when you sleep. Posted by: tbrosz

I knew it!

Posted by: craigie on February 17, 2006 at 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

Tbrosz:
"Yeah, conspiracy nuts out there, Cheney lied, Whittington lied, the Secret Service lied, the sheriff and his crew lied, and everybody at the hospital lied. They're ALL in on it!

And they ALL look in your windows at night when you sleep."
--

All correct, except that they also listen to your phone calls.

Posted by: Jay in Oregon on February 17, 2006 at 11:46 PM | PERMALINK

I think that Shotgungate has pretty much run its course,

Yeah, and what ended it? Gee, could it have been Cheney coming out and making a statement, saying he was sorry, normal stuff like that?

Do you think these bunker-heads actually learned anything from this episode? Anything about openness and transparency and how covering up or stonewalling are always bad strategies?

Naw...

Posted by: craigie on February 17, 2006 at 11:47 PM | PERMALINK

Half the Goofball Moonbats on this board are still spinning conspiracy theories on the Cheney shooting accident.

Good Lord, you people are crazy!!

Posted by: GOPGregory on February 18, 2006 at 1:54 AM | PERMALINK

I find Whittington's apology to the vice president touching. He won't quit Cheney over a little thing like a shooting.

Posted by: Patrick on February 18, 2006 at 5:31 AM | PERMALINK

GOPGregory:

Harry Whittington is obviously dead. Did you see the look in his "eyes"? That's obviously an animatronic robot constructed in the basement of one the NSA's secret laboratories.

Harry wasn't terribly happy with the orgies and goat sacrifice under the moonlight with Cheney in a loincloth and smeared with blood, howling at the top of his lungs, demanding to fuck both of the women sequentially on the stone altar, leaving Harry nothing but sloppy seconds. So Harry had a quiet word with Cheney about it the next day and BLAM! The "hunting" story was obviously a ruse.

Posted by: Dr0oLinG MeWnBAt on February 18, 2006 at 5:45 AM | PERMALINK

tbrosz, that's reason number 345 why I have curtains.

Did the secret service put out a statement?

Posted by: ranaaurora on February 18, 2006 at 6:44 AM | PERMALINK

Check out the latest Political Comics from H.L.

Harry Apologizes To Dick

See it at.
The Hollywood Liberal

You are sooooooooo lame...

Posted by: E. Nonee Moose on February 18, 2006 at 7:11 AM | PERMALINK

Hopelessly and completely Off Topic (because I'm pretty sure as a Mac user I can't run the video anyway):

Mardi Gras parades begin here today.

I'm sure the Krewes and riders are sipping Bloody Marys or whiskey spiked LA hi-test (Community Dark Roast) and are obsessionally tuned into the Weather Channel.

Today dawned chilly, windy and with rain pelting down - which is not a good sign.

Hoping the weather clears up.

"T'row me sumptin, mistah!"

Posted by: CFShep on February 18, 2006 at 8:24 AM | PERMALINK

so far not a peep about the costs to us security.....

Blackmail for one. If the VP chose to hide drunkenness... or even some other small detail, because of the embarassment.... he is open to blackmail... of the more insidious variety.

Posted by: Ashley on February 18, 2006 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

Will some enthusiastic journalist monitor the holdings of the victim - his tax burden, regulations of his industry - or contracts to friends, relatives or business associates.

The real reason Cheney should be relieved of his duties is because he is a likely target of blackmail from a variety of sources... and he is a danger to average American taxpayers.

Posted by: Ashley on February 18, 2006 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

> Yeah, conspiracy nuts out there, Cheney lied,
> Whittington lied, the Secret Service lied, the
> sheriff and his crew lied, and everybody at the
> hospital lied. They're ALL in on it!

It is on record that Armstrong lied about the alcohol. It is on record that the doctors are the hospital were forthcoming with the press right up to the point where they were asked about Whittington's blood alcohol level; then they clammed up.

When I took logic we learned about indirect proof and the use of counterexample. Remind me what rockets you are designing tbrosz so I can stay as far away from them as possible.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on February 18, 2006 at 12:00 PM | PERMALINK

I am with tbrosz on this: how DID they suborn the doctors at a major medical center? That is a tough thing to do. Threats of HIPPA prosecution? Most medical facilities I have been to lately could be hit with 1,207 HIPPA violations any time the Justice Dept felt like sending an investigator; perhaps that was hinted at by Rove.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on February 18, 2006 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

Great video: a bare watermelon at 30 yards with no clothing at all and the pellet penetrates *** 1 mm ***.

Hey, but don't worry: the Washington Post will report on _everything_ we need to know. The traditional media is right on top of it.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on February 18, 2006 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Look, the worst thing about this whole affair isn't that Cheney shot Whittington; that's an understandable mistake. But to torture him for half an hour afterwards, well, that's just inexcusable....

Posted by: Stefan on February 18, 2006 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

When Mary Matalin was checking for the lowest prices for medical attention, she ran into problems with Banfield - First of all, it was closed on weekends - Secondly, the vets seemed to have more integrity.

Children's was out, so that only left Christus Spohn Memorial. Higher priced, but...........

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 18, 2006 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

The problem with the Cheney incident isn't the shooting itself but everything that followed from it. From the refusal to allow any independent police (as opposed to SS which has as its job the protection of their principal before any other priority) access to Cheney for 16-18 hours after the fact which gives the appearance of a cover-up regarding alcohol since that is the length of time it takes to have it clear one's system, to the original message for the first few days from his spokesperson that it was the victim's fault for being shot. To the contradictory statements regarding whether alcohol was consumed let alone how much, nor what meds Cheney takes that can be interacted with alcohol there are many important pieces of information missing or clearly were prevented from being obtained.

Now, this is not SOP for the average citizen to be able to do such in the event of an accidental shooting, so why should the VP get such special treatment? After all, the President and Vice President are supposedly not above the law when it comes to a something like this even if one accepts the premise that in national security issues the President/VP are above the law. What this shows it the utter contempt for the law applying to Cheney, it also showed that Cheney ran this from the moment he shot Whittington onwards, which causes another important question to be asked, that being when did the VP become the ruling authority even over the President himself? This incident showed beyond any doubt both in terms of actions and in terms of timeline of actions taken afterwards that Cheney felt he could tell the President and his staff how do handle things, when they chose to tell the President anything, and that whatever Cheney wanted to do would be how it was handled and not decided by the President nor his staff despite theirs being the actual controlling authority according to the Constitution of the USA and the laws of the society.

This is what makes this incident far from over, despite all the best efforts of the GOP spin machine. It showed yet again the incompetence of this Administration and the automatic attempts to hide/cover-up anything that might possibly be seen as a negative for this Administration. If Whittington had not had that heart attack from the pellet lodged in his heart it is quite possible the story would have continued to be he was only slightly injured, that this was at that 30 yards that clearly doesn't fit with the actual wounds suffered by Whittington, indeed that this was a serious matter to begin with given the way it was being dismissed by humour until the heart attack made that approach unusable.

While in some respects this is clearly not as serious as the foreign policy blunders this Administration has committed, like the Schiavo incident it is something the average American can understand and relate to at a personal level if they had been in Cheney's shoes. They recognize not only the incredibly careless/negligent shooting by Cheney, especially when one takes into account this was at a Quail farm and not a real hunt at all. They recognize the oddity of being able to wait almost a full day before dealing with police since if it was them they would have been interviewed by police immediately whether they wanted to be so interviewed or not. They recognize just how offensive it was for the first three days to be blaming the victim for getting shot instead of the shooter being responsible, which is why I suspect Cheney made a point of defusing that particular grenade.

No, this is far from over, whatever some might prefer. Too much was revealed here about just who runs this WH, and it is not President Bush. While yes this has been suspected by many for years now, this is the first incontrovertible evidence to support it, since this was a very serious matter and yet the WH was kept out of the loop for handling it and Cheney himself called all the shots from the outset onwards. Now, how many times in American history has the VP been the one to determine matters of controversy for the President as was seen in this matter? I rather doubt there have been many others if there are any at all, since none comes to mind offhand. This also further feeds the incompetence, secrecy, and deception themes about this Administration that has clearly percolated through the American electorate outside of the committed Republicans, which is yet another reason why the GOP and Bushco are so desperate to kill this story. Not to mention the long running theme that it is Cheney that is the de facto President and not Bush, despite all the promoting of Bush as the decisive war President he and the GOP have been pushing for all they can get.

Posted by: Scotian on February 18, 2006 at 1:26 PM | PERMALINK

Isn't the easiest waty to determine how far away Cheney was from Whittington simply to have people go out to where the accident occured and measure the distance between where the two me were standing? There were lots of medical personell working on Whittington, so his position should noe be difficult to determine. There might even be some blood still on the ground. The Secret Service must know where Cheney was, and the quail covey is still there. Why haven't reporters gone to accident scene and done the obvious? Armstong would certainlly grant them permission in order to end this speculation about the distance for Cheney's sake.

Posted by: david1234 on February 18, 2006 at 1:29 PM | PERMALINK

> The problem with the Cheney incident isn't
> the shooting itself but everything that followed
> from it.

While what followed is the major problem, the shooting itself appears to have happened when every major code, standard, and oath of the National Rifle Association was violated. IIRC it was the NRA that actually gave Cheney that shotgun. Seems to me that should be a bit of an issue.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on February 18, 2006 at 1:36 PM | PERMALINK

My money is still on: Cheney's gun safety is off, he may have a buzz on, he's farting around with the gun and it goes off, Whittington standing a short distance away gets hit but not with the wad luckily, end of story. Cheney and everyone make up the story about shooting at a quail because it sounds better and there are less legal consequences. We have yet to understand why a person would be spinning behind himself to shoot a quail near the ground. Cheney would have to be an extremely stupid or poor/dangerous hunter to do this. No, I think he left his safety off and accidently discharged his weapon and Whittington happened to be in the way. Probably about 10-15 feet away.

Posted by: MRB on February 18, 2006 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

I am with tbrosz on this: how DID they suborn the doctors at a major medical center?

Posted by: Cranky Observer

Since there are medical privacy concerns the Doctors were limited in what they can say about Whittington's condition. It is up to him what information can be released. Also since he was an accident victim and not a potential criminal. There would be no reason to run a blood alchohol test unless it was requested by the police.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on February 18, 2006 at 2:35 PM | PERMALINK

We have yet to understand why a person would be spinning behind himself to shoot a quail near the ground

Posted by: MRB

From the reports given it looks like Cheney turned less than 90 degrees. Whittington and and the woman who owned the ranch by their accounts said he came up and stepped across the firing line to pick something up. So Cheney did not spin behind himself to fire a blind shot. Keep on guessing it makes you look foolish.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on February 18, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

Looking foolish to you would be the opposite to a rational person so therefore from you I would prefer to look foolish. Thanks. I've hunted quail many times and never shot them on or near the ground. In the sky, sure but not a man's height from the ground. Thanks for the foolish comment though-at least I can say that I've never voted for Bush or Cheney and pushed my country toward fascism.

Posted by: MRB on February 18, 2006 at 6:03 PM | PERMALINK

That's Alex Jones, local nut here in Austin who hosts a very entertaining show on public access. From his show I've learned that the UN is putting chemicals in Diet Coke to give us all cancer and the every politician belongs to a secret society that gets together on a yearly basis to sodomize little boys.

Well I was treating that video with a fair amount of cynicism, but I've learned that when Republicans attack the news bearer rather than the news, then he is most likely right.

Posted by: mcdruid on February 19, 2006 at 2:27 AM | PERMALINK

Looking foolish to you would be the opposite to a rational person so therefore from you I would prefer to look foolish

Posted by: MRB


I am glad you enjoy looking like a foolish left-wingnut. If you really do hunt quail or any other bird that is flushed from hiding. Then you know that they are fair game as soon as they leave the ground and where you shoot the bird depends on its flight path and how quickly you track and shoot. So the bird could be anywhere from a couple feet to however far away you can get a shot. So it could easily have been six to eight feet off the ground. So there goes another one of your assumptions down the drain. Keep on trying! I love when Dumbercrats waste their time trying to come up with ways to make more out of this than there really is.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on February 19, 2006 at 10:27 AM | PERMALINK

FWG,

Mark the calendar, let's pile on MRB together.

Remember, he was the fool who said I was a fool for telling him you don't shoot quail with BUCKSHOT. What an idiot.

And, why can't you shoot quail close to the ground? If it takes off from the ground, is there a special "hard deck" (top gun jargon) that the bird must cross over before you can shoot? Is this how it works in MRB's fantasy great white hunter dreams?

MRB, you've never been hunting in your life, and if you have you are too stupid to know what you were doing.

Idiot, again.

Posted by: Chris on February 19, 2006 at 11:11 AM | PERMALINK

Cranky Observer:

Point well taken. In my post I was referring to all the actions taken after the accident happened, but your point about the accident itself is also quite correct. Everything we have heard regarding the details of the incident are from a firearms safety/hunting safety perspective horrifying. The attempt for the first few days to blame the victim and absolve the shooter was particularly offensive, seeing as it is a basic rule of firearms that he who pulls the trigger is responsible for the results of doing so, period. As to whether alcohol was involved, whether there could have been interactions between meds Cheney is on with alcohol, which certainly is not safe hunting there we have no reliable information but much speculation that something inappropriate happened. Shooting into the setting sun is also a major no-no, indeed considering this was at a quail farm and not real hunting in the wilds this was a particularly unsafe hunt and hunter IMHO.

Sorry to have not given it the proper due in my first post CO, you were quite correct in your point IMHO.

Posted by: Scotian on February 19, 2006 at 12:27 PM | PERMALINK

Everything we have heard regarding the details of the incident are from a firearms safety/hunting safety perspective horrifying. The attempt for the first few days to blame the victim and absolve the shooter was particularly offensive, seeing as it is a basic rule of firearms that he who pulls the trigger is responsible for the results of doing so, period.

Posted by: Scotian

Nobody has blamed the victim. If he made a mistake by crossing the firing line unannounced. That is secondary to Cheney's final responsibility as a shooter. Cheney himself has taken full resonsibility for the accident.

The only thing horrifying about the whole thing is the lengths you Dumbercrats and the press have gone to make a mountain out of a mole hill. This was a simple hunting accident and the victim is alive and well holding no animosity towards Cheney. The only agrieved are the press that got scooped by a small local paper and they have acted pretty childish and vindictive about it. You Dumercrats are just going through your 'we hate Cheney' drill. I love it1

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