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Tilting at Windmills

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February 17, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

FISA FLIP FLOP....Today's revealing quote of the day comes from Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. After switching course earlier this afternoon and deciding that he wants full briefings on the NSA's domestic spying program after all, he said this:

"I think it's the function and the oversight responsibility of the committee," he said, adding, "That might sound strange coming from me."

Yes, it does sound a bit strange coming from the Bush administration's biggest water carrier on the Hill. But it's welcome nonetheless. Apparently Roberts now feels not only that his committee should be briefed, but that the program itself should be overseen by the FISA court.

If Roberts follows up on this, then good for him. Better late than never.

Kevin Drum 11:25 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (125)

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Comments

Smells like a trap...

Posted by: elmo on February 17, 2006 at 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, but why the HELL would you ever think this guy will follow through on anything he says?

Why at this late date would you ever possibly think that?

Posted by: mercury on February 17, 2006 at 11:31 PM | PERMALINK

He's been saved --

Posted by: sadderbudwiser on February 17, 2006 at 11:32 PM | PERMALINK

Do you smell a whitewash? No sudden turnarounds for Republican trough feeders unless there's "mischief afoot"

Posted by: murmeister on February 17, 2006 at 11:46 PM | PERMALINK

If that's literally true, what on earth could have brought him around?

Posted by: cld on February 17, 2006 at 11:50 PM | PERMALINK

Say, I have this property in Florida you might be interested in....Please, in three days he will have switched his position again after "consultations" with the White House (i.e. kneecapping by Karl).

Posted by: Col Bat Guano on February 17, 2006 at 11:59 PM | PERMALINK

Would you like to make a small wager that Roberts will not allow the NSA program to be swallowed by the FISA court ?

Maybe your pension ?

Posted by: Mike K on February 18, 2006 at 12:06 AM | PERMALINK

My guess is that Rove and gang have decided that a straight stonewall won't play as well as an "investigation", so they'll put on a show.

Posted by: Joe Buck on February 18, 2006 at 12:32 AM | PERMALINK

After switching course earlier this afternoon and deciding that he wants full briefings on the NSA's domestic spying program after all

This is of course what George Bush has been doing. He has briefed both Democrats and Republicans, but Democrats have been lying about them not being briefed. Democrats could have told Bush they didn't like the program, but they never did. Hypocrites.

Link

"They added that Democrats briefed on the program, who included Harman and Daschle, could have taken steps if they believed the program was illegal. All four appeared on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Roberts said he could not remember Democrats raising questions about the program during briefings that, beginning in 2002, were given to the "Gang of Eight." That group was made up of the House speaker and minority leader, the majority and minority leaders of the Senate, and the chairmen and ranking Democrats of the House and Senate intelligence committees.

At the briefings, Roberts said, "Those that did the briefing would say, 'Do you have questions? Do you have concerns?' " Hoekstra said if Democrats thought Bush was violating the law, "it was their responsibility to use every tool possible to get the president to stop it.""

Posted by: Al on February 18, 2006 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK


MERCURY: Sorry, but why the HELL would you ever think this guy will follow through on anything he says? Why at this late date would you ever possibly think that?

If every time a guy comes up behind you he stabs you in the back, sooner or later you'd try to jump out of the way, wouldn't you? But Kevin, ever worried he'll be accused of a knee-jerk reaction, waits until the knife has done its damage before crying foul. Mostly works for him since it's never Kevin personally who gets stabbed. But if someone else does, he'll be there saying, "Hey, that's not right." Then he'll stand aside and let the guys with the knives sneak up on others while he gives them the benefit of the doubt.


Posted by: jayarbee on February 18, 2006 at 1:03 AM | PERMALINK

Sen. Spector held hearings, and the next thing we knew, evidence of lobbyist problems surfaced.

So how will it take before something bad about Sen. Roberts will be 'newly uncovered'?

Posted by: Robert Earle on February 18, 2006 at 1:17 AM | PERMALINK

Jayarbee-why do you bother to read this site? Is it just so you can tell us how much more truly radical you are than Kevin? If so-we get it, thanks.

Posted by: URK on February 18, 2006 at 1:20 AM | PERMALINK

I don't know if anything will come of this, but can we please finally drop the "this issue is a big loser for the Democrats" meme that Rove and Cheney were peddling? One by one, Republicans -- even the most hackish Republicans like Roberts -- are forced to at least pretend they want oversight of this thing. That wouldn't be happening if, as Karl Dick Mehlman keeps saying, only crazed coastal lefties have a problem with this program. If Roberts feels obliged to pretend he's not a water-carrier for the administration, there is clearly no political downside for people who are genuinely anti-lawbreaking.

Posted by: M.A. on February 18, 2006 at 1:40 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin and others of his ilk keep saying it's a DOMESTIC spying program. But from what has been described by the admin., their warrantless surveillence is on international communications directed to parties in the US. Correct? The FISA appeals court has all ready ruled that foreign intelligence surveillence is solely under the purview of the president. Even if the Congress wants to oversee it, they would not be allowed to per the seperation of powers arrangement in the Constitution. Wrong?
No one has produced any evidence showing any domestice surveillence was conducted without a warrant. So how has it come about that this is called an illegal spying program?
It is true that there is no recent case that has been decided by the Supreme Court. But all prior cases on the subject, going back to 1978 have been sided in favor of the president and his inherant powers under Article II of the Constitution.
Efforts to have Congress ask the SCOTUS to review FISA and the NSA program won't work until there is an actual case to review.
This "oversight" ship seems to be dead in the water.

Posted by: Meatss on February 18, 2006 at 1:48 AM | PERMALINK

Poor Kevin Drum and the Hapless Dems - does this mean they can't keep whining about the NSA program??

Posted by: BigRiver on February 18, 2006 at 1:58 AM | PERMALINK

By the way, if the NSA program was such a gross violation of civil rights, how come not a single Democrat called for the program to be andandoned?

Answer that question, and you will see the weakness of the Democratic position. All the Democrats say is, "Gosh, we just wanted everything done the right way. We never wanted the FBI to miss any calls from Al Queda."

Can the Dems get any more lame?

Posted by: BigRiver on February 18, 2006 at 2:02 AM | PERMALINK

I realize this is off topic, but as a member of a campus group, Action in Sudan!, committed to raising awarness of the genocide in Darfur and encouraging increased funding for security, as well as divestment from companies doing business with the regime in Khartoum, I found the following story to be truly inspiring (briefly, Joey Cheek, the speedskater who won the gold in the 500 m, is giving a large chunk of his Olympic-related earnings to supporting the refugees scattered throughout Darfur, as well as those on the border in Chad).

http://www.usolympicteam.com/11478_44379.htm

Kevin, I think it would be worthwhile posting a brief update on the deteriorating situation in Darfur. Eric Reeves has a new article up at TNR that is an excellent overview of the current situation. The fact that this government can't set aside $50 million to support the UN peacekeeping mission is Darfur is reprehensible and any pressure people can put on their legislators is absolutely essential to improve the plight of those desperate people. Thanks.

Posted by: Chuck Darwin on February 18, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

By the way, if the NSA program was such a gross violation of civil rights, how come not a single Democrat called for the program to be andandoned?

Hence the investigation. They don't know the extent of the program, hence they haven't been able to make any judgements whether or not it can be done within the existing rules or - even better - change the law if its not anything horridly outrageous.

Answer that question, and you will see the weakness of the Democratic position.

No, I answered the question, and I got the weakness of the Republican position. Blind faith in party leadership works great in Cuba and North Korea, spunky, but here in America we're far more cynical.

All the Democrats say is, "Gosh, we just wanted everything done the right way. We never wanted the FBI to miss any calls from Al Queda."

As opposed to "Fuck the law, as long as I have a sense of security?" Good German. Very very good German.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on February 18, 2006 at 4:44 AM | PERMALINK

i see the morons are out again tonight, so let's try explaining to meatss and BigRiver, very slowly, the situation (Al, being nought but a comedian, doesn't count).

That this program has resulted in american citizens being wiretapped has already been confirmed by the administration in a variety of ways. We had General Hayden tell us that the program "relaxes" the standard of probable cause, which is the standard applicable to American citizens only.

We had General Hayden confirm for us the accuracy of the ny times article about the complete waste of time the leads produced by the program were, his explanation being that this was at the early stages of the program and the "faucet" had been "opened" too wide.

We had the farcical DOJ justification for the programn, which says that FISA isn't being violated not because the program is only listening in on foreign sources of information but because the AUMF provided the justification for overriding FISA.

And, of course, we've got the simple fact that the administration isn't trying to justify this on the basis that this is only typical overseas intelligence-gathering.

so really, guys, you don't know what you're talking about and you should please go educate yourselves and not waste electrons with your empty propaganda points.

Meanwhile, we know that the briefings were limited and classified, and while i appreciate that all the desperate republicans, trying to defend the indefensible, are now trying out the argument that, in essence, the dems should have violated the classification of the hearings, no adult can take such an argument seriously.

Meanwhile, we've seen Senator Rockefeller's letter upon his so-called briefing, and he specifically does say this program looks like a problem and that he's keeping a copy of the letter in his own safe (wonder why, doncha?).

the adult position on this has been utterly consistent: if Bush has some good ideas about how to change FISA, he should put them on the table. Meanwhile, he should stop breaking the law.

Posted by: howard on February 18, 2006 at 4:47 AM | PERMALINK

oh yes, that's right, i almost forgot: there is zero reason to believe that pat roberts has gotten religion. he's a cover-up artist, and i agree with Joe Buck that the Rove administration, reading the tea leaves, has decided to offer up a pretend investigation.

Posted by: howard on February 18, 2006 at 4:49 AM | PERMALINK

You guys lost, the libs went nuts over this and they got taken to the cleaners by Bush.

Posted by: Patton on February 18, 2006 at 6:47 AM | PERMALINK

DEMOCRAT FLIP FLAP FLOP:

31 Senate Democrats Called For Attorney General Alberto Gonzales To Recuse Himself From Abramoff Case, Claiming He Has A Conflict Of Interest. (Pete Yost, "31 Senate Democrats Ask Gonzales To Step Aside In Abramoff Probe," The Associated Press, 2/16/06)
28 Of The 31 Senators Have Received Contributions From Abramoff's Clients And Firms. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org,

Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) Signed The "Conflict Of Interest" Letter, But Took $68,941 From Abramoff Affiliates And Had "Routine Contacts" With "Team Abramoff" Lobbyists. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org, Accessed 1/4/06; John Solomon and Sharon Theimer, "Democratic Leader's Staff Routinely Met With Abramoff Team, Helped Clients," The Associated Press, 2/9/06

Since 1990, "Democrats Have Taken More Money From Lobbyists Than Republicans ..." Since 1990, Democrats Have Received 70% Of Lobbyist/Lawyer Donations, Almost $546 Million. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org,


During 2006 Cycle, Democrats Are The Top 4 Recipients Of Lobbyist/Lawyer Money, Taking More Than $3.1 Million. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org, Accessed 2/17/06)
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY): $1,050,999
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL): $723,182
Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA): $676,835
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA): $673,496. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website,

Federal Investigators Are Targeting Rep. William Jefferson (D-LA) For Demanding Bribes And Favors In Exchange For Using His Office To Arrange Business Deals. (Shailagh Murray and Allan Lengel, "The Legal Woes Of Rep. Jefferson," The Washington Post, 2/16/06)
"A Former Aide Recently Pleaded Guilty To Bribing Jefferson ..." (Shailagh Murray and Allan Lengel, "The Legal Woes Of Rep. Jefferson," The Washington Post, 2/16/06)


America Votes, A Democrat Soft-Money Coalition, Raised $4.3 Million In The Last Six Months Of 2005. (Chris Cillizza, "Democrats Revive Soft Money Efforts," The Washington Post, 2/16/06)

In 2005, America Votes Received $500,000 From Extreme Liberal Mega Donor George Soros, And $50,000 From MoveOn.Org. (Chris Cillizza, "Democrats Revive Soft Money Efforts," The Washington Post, 2/16/06)
In 2004, Democrat 527s Raised $247,944,466 - Nearly Double That Of Republican 527's. (Political Money Line Website, www.tray.com, Accessed 5/2/05)
In 2004, America Votes Received $250,000 From George Soros' Son, Jonathan, And $50,000 From MoveOn.Org. (Political Money Line Website, www.tray.com, Accessed 2/16/06;

Posted by: Patton on February 18, 2006 at 7:01 AM | PERMALINK

So, ole Potato Nose re-read his oath of office and decided maybe he should uphold the Constitution of the United States? Fat chance.

No, Roberts probably sees an opportunity to whitewash more wrongdoing by the most corrupt Administration in American history. Let's be honest, Bush has completely mischaracterized this program. It isn't - 'If al-Qaeda is calling someone in the U.S., we want to know about it.' It's more like - 'We are going to throw every phone call in the United States into one big electronic hopper, search and filter for certain key words or phrases and then wiretap who we want, without a warrant. And screw the Democrats, if they want to oversee us'. So, if I call my brother-in-law in Missouri and say "Bush sucks", chances are I will hit a filter and be on Bush's enemies list.

Big Brother IS watching.

Impeach Bush and Cheney.

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on February 18, 2006 at 7:06 AM | PERMALINK

If Roberts can truly be relied on to hand over his water buckets, you're right. But I believe he's just paying lip service after feeling some heat for being such a lappoodle.

The key here is to keep up the public heat, because if Roberts is gonna mend his ways, it'll only come if enough outraged voters light his hair on fire.

Posted by: Kevin Hayden on February 18, 2006 at 7:36 AM | PERMALINK

Oh for fuck's sake, Patton, what in the world is extreme about any of George Soros' positions?

Is to disagree with the little fucker that now runs your nation to be an extremist?

If Soros is an extremist in any regard it is that he is an extremist in defence of liberty and of democracy. A pretty damn honorable extremism in my books (but something a rat-fucker like you will doubtless never understand) and given his start behind the Iron Curtain an extremism well worth listening to.

Posted by: snicker-snack on February 18, 2006 at 7:38 AM | PERMALINK

if as bush and pat roberts believe what they say,

that what bush is doing is perfectly legal...


then what is roberts talking about when he says he has a "fix" for fisa?


my 11-year old niece lies better than that.....


the biggest reason not to trust roberts is easily evident....

even after the downing street memo that said...facts being "fixed" around the policy...

almost 2-years after the fact...roberts still cant seem to begin that hyping intell on iraq investigation by the white house..

you know...the one...he promised he would do after the elections

in 2004...

just another example of how the gop cannot be trusted with national security...

they will continue.....until someone makes then stop

remember in november

Posted by: thisspaceavailable on February 18, 2006 at 7:46 AM | PERMALINK

Verrrrrry slowwwwwly:

The lobbying is bipartisan. The crimes are Republican.

Hacks pretend that -lobbying- is the scandal. Sure, and I'm guilty of drunk driving ... because I -drive-! Hell, I even own a car. I rely on driving-related activities every single day!

Driving is legal. Driving drunk is illegal. I know that's a difficult distinction, but ponder closely. Lobbying is legal. Bribery and extortion is criminal. Hm ...

Posted by: adam on February 18, 2006 at 8:04 AM | PERMALINK

Man, the guy knows and admits how pathetic he sounds. "What - me, engage in actual oversight? I know that must surprise the hell out of you."

Posted by: RT on February 18, 2006 at 8:25 AM | PERMALINK

ugh, senator roberts, where is the phase II investigation into the white house's manipulation of intelligence.

Posted by: linda on February 18, 2006 at 8:35 AM | PERMALINK

worst president ever

Posted by: big fish ensemble on February 18, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

Lobbying is legal. Bribery and extortion is criminal.

Now we simply need to prove the following in a court of law:

Bribery of public officials and witnesses

(a) For the purpose of this section--
(1) the term ``public official'' means Member of Congress,
Delegate, or Resident Commissioner, either before or after such
official has qualified, or an officer or employee or person acting
for or on behalf of the United States, or any department, agency or
branch of Government thereof, including the District of Columbia, in
any official function, under or by authority of any such department,
agency, or branch of Government, or a juror;
(2) the term ``person who has been selected to be a public
official'' means any person who has been nominated or appointed to
be a public official, or has been officially informed that such
person will be so nominated or appointed; and
(3) the term ``official act'' means any decision or action on
any question, matter, cause, suit, proceeding or controversy, which
may at any time be pending, or which may by law be brought before
any public official, in such official's official capacity, or in
such official's place of trust or profit.

(b) Whoever--
(1) directly or indirectly, corruptly gives, offers or promises
anything of value to any public official or person who has been
selected to be a public official, or offers or promises any public
official or any person who has been selected to be a public official
to give anything of value to any other person or entity, with
intent--
(A) to influence any official act; or
(B) to influence such public official or person who has been
selected to be a public official to commit or aid in committing,
or collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the
commission of any fraud, on the United States; or
(C) to induce such public official or such person who has
been selected to be a public official to do or omit to do any
act in violation of the lawful duty of such official or person;

(2) being a public official or person selected to be a public
official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks,
receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value
personally or for any other person or entity, in return for:
(A) being influenced in the performance of any official act;
(B) being influenced to commit or aid in committing, or to
collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the
commission of any fraud, on the United States; or
(C) being induced to do or omit to do any act in violation
of the official duty of such official or person;

(3) directly or indirectly, corruptly gives, offers, or promises
anything of value to any person, or offers or promises such person
to give anything of value to any other person or entity, with intent
to influence the testimony under oath or affirmation of such first-
mentioned person as a witness upon a trial, hearing, or other
proceeding, before any court, any committee of either House or both
Houses of Congress, or any agency, commission, or officer authorized
by the laws of the United States to hear evidence or take testimony,
or with intent to influence such person to absent himself therefrom;
(4) directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives,
accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally
or for any other person or entity in return for being influenced in
testimony under oath or affirmation as a witness upon any such
trial, hearing, or other proceeding, or in return for absenting
himself therefrom

Posted by: cmdicely on February 18, 2006 at 10:09 AM | PERMALINK

Nice tune, Big Fish. Can you post the lyrics?

Posted by: cmdicely on February 18, 2006 at 10:11 AM | PERMALINK

Puhleease, remember this in November! "Domestic Spying" should be at the top of the campaign, spoken virulently from every podium by the likes of those defenders of democracy Nancy Pelosi, Teddy Kennedy, Harry Reid and the token Hawk Jack Murtha. (Harry Belafonte would be another nice choice). Combine this with Harry Reid's proclamation that you "killed the Patriot Act", throw in tax-cuts for the rich and abortion on demand and '08 is in the bag because these are all very mainstream issues, I promise. And if you aren't gaining enough traction with these, try the impeachment route offered up by thisspaceavailable (how appropriate). Brilliant strategy!

Say, I see no one has addressed Patton's post! Does this mean the "culture of corruption" part of the campaign may have to be scrapped. Damn, I hate when facts get in the way of a winning campaign.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

Jay:

I readily concede that prosecution of federal bribery (against either side of the aisle) is going to be an uphill battle.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 18, 2006 at 10:22 AM | PERMALINK

Say, I see no one has addressed Patton's post!

Thats because Patton's post has no substance to refute, only tired talking points and pschotic rambeling. Statistics that have no bearing on the multipal felonies commited by the Cheney regime and the rubber stamp formerly known as congress.

Would a nurse in the pysch wing debate one of the nutcases? Its kind of like that.

Posted by: SnarkyShark on February 18, 2006 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

Would this be the same Pat Roberts that delayed the second part of the 9/11 report until AFTER the election promising to complete it then and then fudging on that? Some big IF!!!!

Posted by: Dancer on February 18, 2006 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

That's the message that needs to be taken to the public - "multiple felonies committed by Cheney". Let everyone know that you have already tried and convicted Cheney, Libby and Delay while you vehemently defend the civil rights of islamic jihadists and demand lawyers to fight their unlawful detention! That, my freinds, is a winning strategy, don't lose sight of it!

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

Would this be the same Pat Roberts that delayed the second part of the 9/11 report until AFTER the election promising to complete it then and then fudging on that? Some big IF!!!!
Posted by: Dancer on February 18, 2006 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

Yep, Dancer ~

Same One. Look for more of the same behavior. Buck and Howard up-thread have identified the ploy. Promise, stall and manipulate newer issues coming along into becoming the focus of attention. Bait and switch.


Posted by: jcricket on February 18, 2006 at 11:18 AM | PERMALINK

Senator Roberts is a water carrier for the Bush administration.

Senator Roberts flip flops and opposes the Bush administration.

Senator Roberts is a trap.

So, when he does what we don't like, he's a bad guy.

When he does what we do like, he's still a bad guy, only part of a bigger conspiricy.

I see. Hate all things Bush and proceed to the voting booth.

It worked so well in '00, '02, '04.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Posted by: Just a Thought on February 18, 2006 at 11:21 AM | PERMALINK

Wow, a troll frenzy on this issue, which is a good indication just how dangerous this issue is politically. Roberts has carried Bush's water so long that he is being drowned like a Norquist Nation toddler in it. The most compelling case against the illegal wiretapping came from Russ Feinglod last night on Bill Mahr. This issue has traction because no Republican wants Hillary to have the same power.
And be honest, who besides the guy who posts under Jay-meatts-patton-al-freedom fry, takes Bush seriously any more? My God, his craven slathering support for the Cheney (he REALLY put the Vice in the presidency, didn't he?) this week, it is clear that Bush-Rove are just just legends in their own minds. Cheney's business cabal is running things. For Roberts and other Republicans, it is time to plot an independent course. Un;ess Cheney makes a robot of himself, he is done in a few months anyway. He will quit to spend more time with his Swiss mistress, or will be indicted. The man is more corrupt than even Spiro Agnew. That was a tough mar to beat, but he bested him even before the 4th heart attack.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Jeebus - I wonder what changed Pat's mind - either a bait and switch or somebody knows something really bad about the Bushies little wiretapping event - has Bush been wiretapping senators?

There was some suggesting that the Bushies were doing just that a little while back - remember when Cheney wanted senate members to take thos lie detector test - back when, as I remember, John Kerry was quick to agree with Mr. Cheney on the subject while most senators strongly disagreed with Cheney's senate witch hunt program.

Posted by: Cheryl on February 18, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Heh.

This describes the repeated tax cuts in the futile hope that somehow they'll lead to a balanced budget.

This describes the invasion and occupation of Iraq in the futile hope that somehow this will result in the conversion of the Middle East to a cradle for democracy.

This describes the repeated failure to reinforce the levies in New Orleans in the futile hope that no hurricaine will cause them to be breached.

This describes the repeated demands for drilling in Alaska in the futile hope that this will provide any relief from the oil shortage.

This describes the willful denial of global warming in the futile hope that it will go away.

This describes the continued advocacy of charter schools in the futile hope that they will educate the kids that are failing in public schools.

This describes the curtailing of legal abortion in the futile hope that it will make abortions stop.

Yes, this administration is insane.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 11:36 AM | PERMALINK

Jayjustathoughtmeatsstroll. Who sends you the checks and the faxes? My gut feeeling is that these guys cash Rove's checks, but still occasionally post under truly progressive handles when they are off the clock. There is no way a troll could read the facts of the past six years and not be pro-impeachment, and anti GOP. Unless he was clinically insane, which is a ral possibility for the Al/PATTON/Alice/FWG poster. Brosz is the good-cop of the paid troll army, and may be the most likely to post under progressive identities at other parts of the day. He can still hold a conversation even after having his arguments shredded. Anyway, the trolls are interesting to watch--kind of like a traffic accident--I scroll through their posts mostly, but sometimes can't resist watching for their pummeling. Democrats will control government again soon, let's just not lose sight of the fact that there are a lot of people with political hypnosis--that is something Richard Dreyfuss said at the NPC yesterday, and I think it is a good characterization.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

Sen. Pat "the check is in the mail" Roberts conduct a meaningful investigation of republican wrongdoing? When pigs fly and hell freezes over.

Little things like honor, standards, honesty have no meaning to the republican leadership and this guy in particular. He certainly has felt no obligation to keep his word regarding investigating WH manipulation of Iraq intel. 9/11 changed everything, especially respect for civil liberties, decency, honor, truth and accountability. The republican post 9/11 mentality is "anything goes" and what went first were our standards of decency and respect for truth.

The main duty of the republican congress seems to be obtruction of justice and avoidance of accountability.

Posted by: Chrissy on February 18, 2006 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

Don't alter your positions one bit there sparky, because they have worked so well to date. In fact the only thing you need to do is to speak louder with more anger. "Democrats will control gov't again soon" - sparky. Awesome! Reality is that you haven't had Congress since 1994 and the WH since '00 but you are on the right track especially with that mental powerhouse of an ambassador Cindy Sheehan at work.

Let's take a look at this winning campaign shall we!
1. Tax cuts only benefit the rich (despite across the board cuts, historically low unemployment and 2 million non-farm jobs added in the past twelve months)
2. Islamic Jihadists are people too (lawyers for terrorists, the stockades for Cheney and Delay)
3. Nothing is wrong with Social Security (another brilliant strategy)
4. Iraq is a quagmire (despite three successful elections, an elected representational gov't, and a 200,000+ security and military force)
5. Bush Lied (a little tape out today with 12 hours of Saddam may put a bugger in that one - DAMN!)
6. Bush hates black people (depsite more African-Americans and minorities in his admin. than any other)
7. There is no terrorist threat (despite the cartoon debacle and London, Madrid, Beslan, etc. etc.)
8. Domestic Spying (this is my favorite)
9. Plamegate (you haven't forgotten about America's most coveted secret spy have you?)
These are all very mainstram issues and all of you are on the majority side of these issues, I promise, they will work well for you. The key is to have very sensible moderate people like Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer and Harry Belafonte on the podium leading the charge. Well Done, it's a winner. Full speed ahead.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK


This is cool!!

LIKE A BOLTON FROM THE BLUE

That's what the corrupt, dysfunctional UN must feel like it's been hit with this month, as U.S. Ambassador John Bolton takes his turn as Chairman of the Security Council. The NYTimes reports this morning: "Mr. Bolton, president of the Security Council this month, set meetings next week on what the United Nations has been doing about charges of sexual exploitation by peacekeepers and an audit on waste approaching $300 million in the peacekeeping purchasing department."

Naturally, the UN General Assembly is upset -- not at the waste, fraud and corruption but at the fact that Bolton cannot be dissuaded from shining a light on it.

Go, go Johnny go, go!

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

Jay, dude, you are the one who is coming across angry and the real hate comes from the right wing. Have you listened to Hannity or Limbaugh or Coulter? Perhaps there is a place for you on right wing talk where the ability to be both wild-eyed and dumb-assed at the same time are truly valued. Why waste your time here.

Posted by: Chrissy on February 18, 2006 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

No anger, just amusement Chrissy. Giving Dems political control would be like letting the grade school children with ADD run institution. Face it, your party is becoming side show, step right up! This year is going to be fun; pass the popcorn.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

rdw, betcha Bolton wants to investigate those "sexual exploitation" claims up front and personal, given what his ex-wife has had to say about him.

Posted by: Chrissy on February 18, 2006 at 12:10 PM | PERMALINK

Hey Jay, get some new material. Your 'full speed ahead' schtick is getting REALLY tired. Do you actually think about what you post or are all of your talking points in a bag you shake up and then regurgitate them in random order each post? Lame.

Anyhow, you repubs shopuld be proud. You wanted to win at any cost and any cost is what you have, the most criminal regeime who ever stole the American Presidency. Congradulations, enjoy the stink.

Posted by: Eric Paulsen on February 18, 2006 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

Chrissy, how insensitive you are towards Bolton. What if he does have deviant sexual tendencies? I though liberals championed that? And what if he chooses some sexual lifestyle out of the mainstream, wouldn't that be Pro-Choice? Again, a cause I thought you were firmly behind. How intolerant of you. I am disappointed.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

I know Eric, if wasn't for that damn corrupt Ohio, Kerry would've won and before that Florida was rife with election corruption! Your bad luck is uncanny. And talk about something that's really tired (re: full speed ahead), let's discuss again and again and again and again how stupid GW is yet he continues to befuddle the left. Does that make the left really really stupid?

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

I think Kevin is right to remain ever hopeful when somebody like Roberts will do his job for two reasons: We are stuck with Roberts in that job for now and sometimes the institutionalized mechanisms of American government just gang up on a guy like Roberts and he finds himself almost forced to do his job, at least partially.

Congressional oversight is so important and has a long history of success. Oversight has suffered mightily since the Republicans won control of both legislative bodies, but any little can that Roberts opens can turn out to have a lot of worms in it.

Roberts has been horrible but we should insist that he do his job until we can get him out of there.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on February 18, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, Jay, our courageous little troll.

"1. Tax cuts only benefit the rich (despite across the board cuts, historically low unemployment and 2 million non-farm jobs added in the past twelve months)"

. . . and record deficits, with the economic stability of the US now in the hands of the Chinese;

"2. Islamic Jihadists are people too (lawyers for terrorists, the stockades for Cheney and Delay)"

Name one Isamic Jihadist in Gitmo. Just one. Or provide any objective evidence that those imprisoned there are, in fact, Jihadists.

"3. Nothing is wrong with Social Security (another brilliant strategy)"

heh. There isn't anything wrong with Social Security. There is something wrong with the privateers' claims, though. That's why Bush has consistently failed to privatize the program, despite parading all over the country with his snake oil plans.

"4. Iraq is a quagmire (despite three successful elections, an elected representational gov't, and a 200,000+ security and military force)"

Tell that to the thousands of maimed Americans, the parents of a couple thousand dead soldiers, and the families of tens of thousands of Iraqis that have died as a direct or indirect result of the American occupation. And no end is in sight.

"5. Bush Lied (a little tape out today with 12 hours of Saddam may put a bugger in that one - DAMN!)"

Heh. Nothing in the tape provides an atom of evidence that Saddam had WMDs in 2003. Nope. Bush still lied.

"6. Bush hates black people (depsite more African-Americans and minorities in his admin. than any other)"

And New Orleans is still a disaster area. Great job, Brownie!

"7. There is no terrorist threat (despite the cartoon debacle and London, Madrid, Beslan, etc. etc.)"

Ah. So the war on terrorism is really about cartoons in your little mind?

"8. Domestic Spying (this is my favorite)"

I can see why you like it. It looks like a winner for the Bush Adminstration. I recommend you continue to defend it.

"9. Plamegate (you haven't forgotten about America's most coveted secret spy have you?)"

Nope. Neither, apparently, has Pat Fitzgerald.

Insane administration. You fit right in, Jay baby.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

JAYson, JAYson, JAYson: I should have included you with the certifiably insane troll(s), my mistake. Like Whittington, I am sorry. But c'mon--surely even with less beer than Cheney had last Saturday, you can see this "administration" is almost completely inept? Check into the Betty Ford clinic, get cleaned up, and start avoiding Powerline and Free Republic before its too late.

Even Pat Roberts put on sunglasses and looked away from the shiny pendant this week.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK

Jay, speaking of "firmly behind", what's Republican Jeff Gannon, doing these days?

Posted by: Chrissy on February 18, 2006 at 12:25 PM | PERMALINK

This describes the repeated demands for drilling in Alaska in the futile hope that this will provide any relief from the oil shortage.

Joel, you have this all wrong. The GOP has absolutely backed off this one although not entirely. ANWR has turned out to be a gift from God. There will not be a full scale push on this for a few years.

As much as conservatives want to drill in ANWR they much prefer to humiliate and destroy the Kyoto crowd. Every drop not produced out of ANWR will be replaced by a drop from the Tar Sands. This is better than perfect. Tar Sand extraction is an ecological nightmare. It's the dirtiest of all energy sources. American liberals have designed a process to keep Alaska pristine and totally trash Western Canada.

Isn't that cool? Estimates now are Canada will exceed their Kyoto limits by 50%. Of the 120+ signee's who will be the worst abuser? Oh Canada! Tell me that's not perfect.

Either Canada withdrawls OR they get to pay the Russians incredible sums. How stupid is that? The Russians are doing NOTHING but they'll collect a windfall!

Estimates for the US are to be somewhere near 20% over. Of course that doesn't account for the fact we cut demand 1.8% last year and 1.7% so far this year. By 2012 the USA will have far more to lower emissions than Canada. How about that. The title for the worst in the world!

Here's another interesting tidbit. Liberals are trying hard to reduce imports from the Middle East. We get a little over 1M Barrels a day from the Saudi's and smaller amounts from Iraq and elsewhere. So while we're going to cut demand we're still going to take every drop of Tar Sands product that can be produced. Got to cut those Saudi imports don't you know.

Gotta love liberals. They know the Saudi product comes right out of the ground creating virtually no pollution during the process. They know the Tar Sands process is filthy. But that's OK. It's Canada Crud.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 12:27 PM | PERMALINK

Chrissy: Gannon is the really interesting part of Plame-Wilson thing that has not been fully understood or exploited by Fitz (presumably). I am hoping he has flipped or is going to write a tell-all book. You can't be gay and Republican and still be able to write complete sentences after a while. THAT book would sell better than Jim Frye's.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

rdw,

All politics, no facts. Here's the key fact, rdw: ANWR will have *no* significant influence on global oil supplies or the price Americans will pay for gas. There just ain't that much oil there, rdw. And Tar Sands oil ain't cheap, rdw.

I think you know this, rdw. That's why you post is focused on the politics and not the reality. That's all you care about--short term victories. Peak oil is here, and the Bush administration is playing politics rather than averting disaster.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

given what his ex-wife has had to say about him.

I have to be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about. I take it the misses was/is unhappy? Not as unhappy as Kofi Annon is going to be.

GWB has successfully driven down UN polls to historic lows and that was BEFORE he put Johnny on duty. This is man who clearly doesn't give a rat's ass about European/Liberal sensitivities. GWB is out to destroy the current UN so it can either be rebuilt or simly be abandoned. You are aware coalitions of the willing represent abandonment? You are aware the Asian-Pacific partnership is the abandonment of both the UN and entire Kyoto structure.

This is how the US operates now. The UN can be relevent or stay the same. Either way we are going to do what we are going to do.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 12:35 PM | PERMALINK

Is Jay rdw? or is RDW Patton?

Tar sands my ass. Lets work on replacing 50% of automobiles with electrical light rail run from wind, solar and non-polluting sources. Lets make renewable, non-polluting energy sources THE NATIONAL priority of the next decade or few decades. That is the best way to win the war on terror from the Middle East. Starve the beast overseas for once.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 12:36 PM | PERMALINK

That's exactly what I am talking about Joel. You have your parties talking points down pat and you need to run with it. It is a solid campaign, one that will certainly win afterall it is virtually the same campaign you waged in '02 and '04 and we all saw the results of that........oh wait, that's right. You realize it's not that the message is wrong, it's that it is not yet resonating with the mainstream, if only there were more venues to get that message out. What funerals are scheduled for this week?

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

But rdw, if we play hardball with the UN, they may not like us. Gosh, I hope they like us.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

ANWR will have *no* significant influence on global oil supplies or the price Americans will pay for gas. There just ain't that much oil there, rdw. And Tar Sands oil ain't cheap, rdw.

Joel, did you read the post?

I haven't even attempted to make an argument for drilling in ANWR. I DO NOT WANT TO DRILL IN ANWR.

I want to trash Western Canada.

I want to watch the train wreck sure to come when Canadians come to grips with the fact they are the worst ABUSERS under the Kyoto Protocal.

I want to read the Canadian press when the WSJ reports that the USA did a much better job than Canada and MOST of the EU. I can't wait to see how the MSM covers this.

This is a dream sequence except it's actually happening. Canada is absolutely screwed under Kyoto. There's no way they can look anything other than total fools.

The WSJ is going to have a series of front page headlines of the worst polluters under Kyoto. Canada is guarranteed to be #1. With quite some distance from #2. The USA won't be in the top 10.

And best of all, they're subjecting themselves to this very public global humiliation in order to supply the USA!!!

Tell me this isn't cool!

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

"What funerals are scheduled for this week?"

Well, chimpie's polling at 39%. You tell me.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

But rdw, if we play hardball with the UN, they may not like us. Gosh, I hope they like us.

jay,

It's not like that at all. Bolton can be a little rough around the edges but he's one of those guys once you get to really know him he's a teddy bear. Forget the initial reviews. They'll love him in the end.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

As a rebuttal to my post concerning the futility of using ANWR drilling as a bulwark against peak oil, your post is a non sequitur, rdw.

I can see you are just peeing in your pants over the prospects that Canada, from where we get much more of our oil than from the ME, is going to have to adjust its foreign policy. You're focused on video games, rdw, not reality. Peak oil and the economic disaster that it predicts for this country is reality, and all you can think about is politics. That's why we should ignore you.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

"What funerals are scheduled for this week?"

Who's Cheney hunting with this week?

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

rdw, I was being sarcastic. The UN is a joke! Nothing more than a corrupt elitist circle jerk. (that circle jerk reference will excite the dems - watch). Bolton is perfect for the job and has proven that in a very short time. Remember the hysteria surrounding his "selection". Also, remember the attempted filibuster and the false hysteria surrounding Alito and then the first decision out of the gate, he sides with their position - beautiful. Nothing is more fun than watching the dems get their panties in a bunch. Pass the popcorn.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:55 PM | PERMALINK

Joel, it took you a little while but you did finally find the right "funeral" retort. "A day late and a dollar short" - but eventually you catch on. Well done!

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 12:58 PM | PERMALINK

". . . but eventually you catch on."

Indeed.

I wonder if you ever will.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:00 PM | PERMALINK

If that's literally true, what on earth could have brought him around?

Posted by: cld on February 17

His constituency? The growing unhappiness with Bush? The violation of the law and the constitution?

Posted by: Ace Franze on February 18, 2006 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

"There isn't anything wrong with Social Security. There is something wrong with the privateers' claims, though."

Care to expand on this Joel, or is this just a statement of fact.

Posted by: wilky on February 18, 2006 at 1:04 PM | PERMALINK

As a fan of political circuses, rdw, this one must have you in stitches:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_fact_check_1;_ylt=AhMOaQSWN7CZyOSxqeN0ac9qP0AC;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:05 PM | PERMALINK

But how can anything be in violation of the constitution when it is a fluid, possibly out-dated document, as suggested by many on the left, remember? Re: violation of the law, you're not advocating breaching his civil rights are you? Or right to privacy? Let's appoint a lawyer and go to work on this shall we. Afterall, he should have the same rights as, oh I don't know say a terrorist!

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

I think the trolls are paid by the post. Jay, rdw, keep talking to yourselves. Exxon is doing fine without you, incidentally.
Back to the real topic:
Right now, the Roberts defection is most interesting for what it says about the new direction of the GOP. The real power players are not in the administration and have begun to abandon Rove-Cheney. The vision of the next few months will be an independent one that will parallel that of a national successor to the failed administration. Roberts true beliefs have not ever coincided with Bush's, and team player was a stupid role for him to take with an unpopular president. Roberts, McCain, and an emergent not as tarnished Western moderate will be the new voice of the GOP very soon just so they can actually govern. Rove-Cheney have not governed for more than a year. Completely adrift.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

I can see you are just peeing in your pants over the prospects that Canada, from where we get much more of our oil than from the ME, is going to have to adjust its foreign policy.

Why exactly would I have any concern about Canada's foreign policy? Especially given they just elected a Conservative? Pee in my pants? Are they going to attack us?

I am well aware where out oil comes from with Canada and Mexico well ahead of the Saudi's. I believe the corrct estimate is 10% of our Oil comes from the ME.

The obvious absurdity here is watching American tree huggers cheer blocking ANWR. I would not doubt for a second these are the most environmentally concerned people on the planet. Too bad they are clearly the dumbest as well.

The Alberta Tar Sands stands our for two reasons right now. In all of the America's it is the biggest boom town on both continents. It is also the dirtiest place as well.

This is the direct result of American liberals. They have destroyed Kyoto and are too stupid to realize it.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 1:10 PM | PERMALINK

Sparko, are you Cindy Sheehan?

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 1:10 PM | PERMALINK

"Care to expand on this Joel, or is this just a statement of fact."

Sure.

SS is paying out all the benefits on time. I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

SS will continue to pay out full benefits, according to the most pessimistic estimates, until past 2040. I don't see any problem with that. Do you?

If the economy performs according to the Bush administration projections, SS will continue to pay full benefits indefinitely. I don't see a problem with that. Do you?

What's wrong with the privateers claims is that there is no evidence that privatization of SS "solves" any problems. Thanks to the Reagan SS tax hikes, SS will continue to work.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:13 PM | PERMALINK

Rove-Cheney have not governed for more than a year. Completely adrift.

Now this is really disturbing. I am pissed. Here I am trilled with GWB for appointing John Roberts and Sam Alito, two authentic, high quality, young, conservatives to the Supreme court.

I can't tell you how pleased I am with these to candidates. At ages 50 and 55 we have two more Antonin Scalia's redy to serve for the next 30 years.

If I can't credit GWB who do I credit? Conservatives have been waiting for a court this conservative for 50 years. Someone should get credit?

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

"Why exactly would I have any concern about Canada's foreign policy?"

Dunno, rdw. I was puzzled by the same question when I read your post about Canadian policy WRT Kyoto.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

rdw, I was being sarcastic.

We are on the same page.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 1:18 PM | PERMALINK

"We are on the same page."

Fools seldom differ.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:19 PM | PERMALINK

Again, Joel, another winning campaign issue. The only thing you need to careful of is voters that can recall the campaign of 1992 when your Messiah first made the statement that SS is a broken system. That hasn't changed, the only thing that has changed is the left's position. But again, you are right and I urge you to keep that position through the '08 election, It will serve you well.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

I thought I heard Jay, for a second. Think his Karma penalty came due though. What will the freepers do to with all the widows and orphans?

Keep making fun of those who grieve the wasted lives
Keep pretending to support the troops by sending them in waves to do what you are not man enough to do.
What has teh GOP done for the troops and their families lately? Besides raise their tricare premiums? You wonder why Roberts will chart a more Kansan Populist personna henceforth?

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 1:22 PM | PERMALINK

"It will serve you well."

The "SS is in crisis" meme has certainly served your chimpy well, hasn't it, Jay? Or so it did, back before he realized it was a failure and shut up about it. Guess you didn't get the memo.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

Starve the beast overseas for once

Your heart is in the right palce but we cannot possibly allow liberals near such a project. Look at Kyoto.

The market works. Give it time to react. Already the auto industry is looking at dramatic increases in mileage and most industries are looking at making 20% - 30% rductions in consumption. In a few years virtually everything we buy will use less energy and energy demand will remain flat or fall. At the same time there's a lot of investment in more supply and alterntive sources from a 1,000 different places and ideas.

The last thing we want is some governent bureaucracy getting in the way.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 1:24 PM | PERMALINK

Joel,

What's your prediction for how Kyoto moves past 2012?


How to you see the Canadians dealing with this disaster?

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 1:26 PM | PERMALINK

"The only thing you need to careful of is voters that can recall the campaign of 1992 when your Messiah first made the statement that SS is a broken system."

Oh, and Jay: that little cartoon "liberal" you're posing with isn't me. I never called Clinton a Messiah. Politically, he is what we used to call a "Rockefeller Republican." But you were still haploid back then. When you get a little bit older, you'll understand.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:29 PM | PERMALINK

"The Alito and Roberts Show." Brought to you by James Dobson. And Exxon-Mobile. "We put profits before humanity, every single time." And the Pharmaceutical Industry of Switzerland, "Not only quail hunters need Viagra."


Also appearing as extras, Cheney, Rove, and small w., and Best Boy, Joe Lieberman.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

"How to you see the Canadians dealing with this disaster?"

How should I know? I'm not Canadian.

But don't you fret, rdw. I'm confident that America's greatest ally on this continent will do just fine. They are holding the cards when it comes to the insatiable US appetite for oil. I'm confident that the Administration will do everything in its power to defend and protect Canada, if it means you'll be able to drive your SUV for a few more years.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

Is that what you're doing Cindy, grieving for lost lives? Wow. I thought it was writing books and enjoying your C level celebrity status. If it's grieving for lost lives then please what part of your liitle heart aches for the school children in Beslan, or the commuters in London and Madrid. I haven't heard any witty repartee concerning those lives.

But again Cindy, you are on the right track to regain power and don't let anybody tell you differently. You do represent the mainstream, I promise.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

The Market Works all right--it has created a masterpiece called Global Warming. Love what it did with water colors.
Sometimes thinking persons intercede in disasters to help ameliorate suffering and to chart a course that will not end up in disaster.
Loved how Hoover was able to right the ship.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

I was referring to Gore.

Posted by: Jay on February 18, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

"I haven't heard any witty repartee concerning those lives."

heh. And what about you, Jay? When are you joining up to fight in Chimpy's "war on terra?"

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:36 PM | PERMALINK

Jay: you are insane of course. I am a Kansas Republican veteran, believe it or not. Thanks for all the support for our widows, orphans and families. Maybe you should join up and grow up a little.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 1:39 PM | PERMALINK

Sparko, Jay's idea of courage is attacking gold star mothers on the internet. Our own little keyboard commando.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

I have a question for the Jay's, Patton's, rdw's and their comrades-in-trolldom who are hanging around here with their imbecilic talking points:

Do you in fact get paid by the post? And does the amount of the payment correlate to the level of imbecility?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Posted by: JB (not John Bolton) on February 18, 2006 at 1:45 PM | PERMALINK

I'm confident that the Administration will do everything in its power to defend and protect Canada,

From what? What are you babbling about?


How about the 1st question? Think Kyoto survives past 2012?

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 2:21 PM | PERMALINK

>>Jay, your argument framework for the lefty blogs >>is as follows:
>>1. Hey, your support of (opposition to) >>(appropriate issue) has really served you well >>in the previous five years (two elections). Keep >>it up!
>>2. Address commenters with name of liberal >>"villain."
>>3. Repeat.
>>Sincerely,
>>Dept. of Talking Points.


Posted by: smuggler on February 18, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

When are you joining up to fight in Chimpy's "war on terra?"

What is it like to get up every morning and know Chimpy beat you 4x's?

That Chimpy has picked up 5 Senate eats in the last two elections?

That Chimpy has picked up 12 House seats?

That Chimpy appointed 50-yr old John Roberts
and 55-yr Old Sam Alito to the Supreme Court.?

That Chimpy sent John Bolton to the UN.

That Chimpy trashed Kyoto?

That Chimpy pulled out of the ABM treaty?

That Chimpy treats Jacques Chirac like a dog treats a fire hydrant?

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK

"From what? What are you babbling about?"

I was referring to this comment of yours, upthread: "Canada is absolutely screwed under Kyoto."

I agree, it's a pretty dumb comment. But then again, I didn't make it.


"How about the 1st question? Think Kyoto survives past 2012?"

I couldn't give a flying fuck about Kyoto. Anyway, without the US, a major source of greenhouse gas and major oil consumer, Kyoto is a dead letter. Only conservative and liberal yahoos still prattle about Kyoto. I'm not surprised by your continued interest in the topic.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

"What is it like to get up every morning and know Chimpy . . . blah, blah . . . Chimpy . . . blah, blah . . . Chimpy . . . yammer . . . Chimpy . . . (more irrelevant prattle) . . . Chimpy . . . Kyoto . . . ."

What's it like to be so ignorant that you are proud of such an obvious clown?

"That Chimpy treats Jacques Chirac like a dog treats a fire hydrant?"

Wow. I'm certainly impressed, rdw. You really socked it to me with that one.

Piddling is something your chimp does well. Guess you have to be proud of that.

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 3:29 PM | PERMALINK

it's always interesting to return to a thread after a while and see what the witless pricks like jay and the sadly ill-informed idiots like rdw have done with it.

the question at hand is presidential lawlessness and whether pat roberts actually has had an awakening or is merely providing "investigative" cover.

only jay and rdw could respond by talking about the UN, or Kyoto, or Roberts and Alito, or anything else but the actual topic at hand.

This is, of course, what jay learned in college republican propaganda robot school; rdw is harder to explain because i really do believe that he's older and should know better.

regardless, the giveaway, of course, is that they can't handle the issue at hand. no surprise there, since there is no defense for presidential lawbreaking.

Posted by: howard on February 18, 2006 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

What's it like to be so ignorant that you are proud of such an obvious clown?

Who's proud?

I just love getting the insights of people who after constantly losing to a political opponent STILL make the claim, "He's the one who's the idiot".

I am trying to find out how a sane person could make such a claim.

Somehow outside the reality based community that doesn't make sense.

If he's Chimpy and he's constantly outsmarting you, what are you?

As far as the Chirac thing my knowledge of liberals is they really do care about France and the EU and what they Europeans think of the USA. Liberals want to be loved and they want to considered 'sophisticated'. It drives them up a wall US public opinion of the UN is on the toilet and it's lower for France and the EU.

Liberals wish to be more like France. Knowing a large majority of Americans find the French repulsive is deeply upsetting.

It's like on the GW post with twits actually suggesting a global tax be applied to Americans. They're out of their minds. They really do live in a very different reality and it's not the one with Chimpy and me.


Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

I'm not surprised by your continued interest in the topic.

It's pure joy. Think about it. We've got 6 more years of it. A 6 friggin year train wreck of liberal agony.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

there is no defense for presidential lawbreaking

No there isn't. This issue isn't quite as good as kyoto but it's still good for the GOP. GWB is hunting terrorists and Congress is fighting turf battles.

I am hoping this is slo-mo too. Let it move to the Alito/Roberts court. I know GWB is OK with that.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

"If he's Chimpy and he's constantly outsmarting you, what are you?"


When did he outsmart me? When he thought there were WMDs in Iraq? Nope, I knew Iraq was no threat to the US at the time and said so. Fooled you, though, didn't he?

When he said tax cuts would not erase the budget surplus and create monumental deficits? Nope, I learned that was phony, just like Ron Reagan did. Fooled you, though, didn't he?

When he said he wouldn't tolerate leaks out of the White House? No, I knew better. Fooled you, though, didn't he?

You are the dupe, rdw. And you continue to be played by this idiot.

"As far as the Chirac thing my knowledge of liberals is they really do care about France . . ."

Must be a new and unfamiliar use of the word "knowledge."

"Liberals wish to be more like France."

These must be the cartoon liberals you have to keep posturing with to distract yourself from the fact that the US leads nobody in the world anymore, except at gunpoint. That must make you really proud.

"They really do live in a very different reality and it's not the one with Chimpy and me."

You said it. BTW, what color is the sky in your "reality" rdw?

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

"GWB is hunting terrorists . . ."

You and chimpy still think al Queda just calls folks up on the phone. BWAHAHAHA!! Which comic books do you get your ideas about national security from, rdw? Can you really be *that* stupid?

This adminstration hasn't found a single terrorist by tapping phones. Never has. Never will.

Really, you are such a comical dupe!

Posted by: Joel on February 18, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

What Mary McCarthy said about Lillian Hellman sums up my view on Roberts.

Posted by: skip on February 18, 2006 at 6:55 PM | PERMALINK

``better late than never'' ????
why do i suddenly feel very, very fatigued....

Posted by: secularhuman on February 18, 2006 at 8:14 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, rdw melted completely down. He should start the panty liner blog to complement his political discourse. I am pretty sure these right wingers are trying to destroy the country now. There are things for which a Republican could be proud, but certainly nothing that Cheney and his "boss" have done. They aren't hunting terrorists, they are creating them.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

DO NOT TRUST Roberts any more than you should trust any authentic, honorable thing coming from this congress or administration. This "investigation" will die under the weight of its own banality...down the road when everyone is paying attention to the next scandal du jour. God. When will this end?

Posted by: carol on February 18, 2006 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

When did he outsmart me?

Nov 2000

Nov 2002

Nov 2004

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

God. When will this end?

The best you can hope for is 2016. McCain wins easy in 2008 and 2012.

But you cannot nominate anyone from a blue state or has ever used or allowed the term liberal to be used to describe them. In the 2010 census the blue states will lose a minimum of 7 electral votes and as many as 10. All Presidential candidates will be from Red states.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 10:07 PM | PERMALINK

rdw: you are hopped up on white-out or magic marker. Your panty liner blog is on another url.

Posted by: Sparko on February 18, 2006 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

well, rdw managed to make one on-topic comment, at 4:14. i'm impressed.

of course, the topic was at witless as the rest of his off-topic remarks, but still....

meanwhile, presidential lawlessness is working so frickin' well for the bush administration that its approval remains in the toilet, that in one way or another an increasing number of republicans are distancing themselves from the lawbreaking, that the polling data shows this as far from a strong issue for the gop, and that pat roberts - yes, the very self-same pat roberts who can't even bring himself to conduct the phase ii pre-war intel investigation he promised 1.5 years ago - the subject of this very thread, feels obliged to at least pretend to want to see the lawlessness brought under control.

that's a triumph on par with the prescription drug benefit.

a few more of those triumphs, and there will be no republicans running this november who will want to be seen with bush.

of course, the right-wing movement is getting ready to distance itself from bush anyhow over the next two years, so maybe that's what rdw means by good for the gop: it gives the party a chance to pretend that it hasn't sold its soul for bush-league policies for the past 5 years.

as bugs would say, what a morooooon....

Posted by: howard on February 18, 2006 at 11:42 PM | PERMALINK

President Bush Job Approval

Updated Daily by Noon Eastern Bush Job Approval

Saturday February 18, 2006--Forty-eight percent (48%) of American adults approve of the way George W. Bush is performing his role as President. Fifty percent (50%) disapprove.

The President earns Approval from 56% of Investors and 42% of those who do not invest.

Not too bad. This is not a man lives by polls. He's got 3 things going for him. Oil prices are going to start to settle down. The economy is very strong. The alito court is going to start making rulings. It's all to the good.

Posted by: rdw on February 18, 2006 at 11:57 PM | PERMALINK

rdw, i keep hoping against hope that you're not as big of an idiot as you appear, but you make it impossible.

george bush doesn't live by polls? what are you, nuts?

that said, my earlier comments stand: it appears to be impossible for you to stay on topic, which, as a side note, is an indication of a very immature thought process. the topic, broadly speaking, is presidential lawlessness, and narrowly speaking is pat roberts.

the topic is not the price of oil, unattributed polling data, the future rulings of the roberts court, the strength of the economy (although i can't help but note: no, the economy isn't very strong at all), john mccain's future, kyoto, or any other blithering nonsense that you care to spout in a kind of tourette's syndrome.

do you have anything at all of value to say about presidential lawlessness or pat roberts? otherwise, spare us your random musings until kevin posts something about the price of oil, bush's popularity, etc., etc., etc. we'll eviscerate your positions on those matters then.

Posted by: howard on February 19, 2006 at 12:07 AM | PERMALINK

jay from way up thread: let's discuss again and again and again and again how stupid GW is yet he continues to befuddle the left.


gwb isnt befuddling the left.....

he's befuddled you and people like you....

in 2004 it was a bare majority, while enough to win the election...

that has apparently dwindled with each disaster and example of incompetence

the left hasn't become less befuddled be the president..

the kool aid drinkers are smelling the coffee

some of them anyway....

so while your clapping at the win from a year and a half ago may make your frat boy macho high fiving entertaining....

the end result is more deaths and more debt...

but the worst part is...

we told you so

as a friend of mine says....

democrats may --think-- red staters are stupid...(befuddled)

rove and gwb know it.


Posted by: thisspaceavailable on February 19, 2006 at 7:04 AM | PERMALINK

"When did he outsmart me?

Nov 2000

Nov 2002

Nov 2004

Posted by: rdw "


That's when he outsmarted you, rdw, a trick that becomes more obviously easy with each post you make.

Posted by: Ace Franze on February 19, 2006 at 11:28 AM | PERMALINK

To be fair, Ace, if Bush did not fool you personally each of those years, he fooled Gore, McAuliffe, and Kerry respectively.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 19, 2006 at 1:13 PM | PERMALINK

That's when he outsmarted you, rdw, a trick that becomes more obviously easy with each post you make.

we all knew exactly what we were getting with GWB. he's exceeeded expectations. THe gOP hasn't had this many congressional eats since 1927.

Roberts and alito are bonuses.

Posted by: rdw on February 19, 2006 at 8:15 PM | PERMALINK

he's befuddled you and people like you....

If befuddled is Roberts and Alito then allow me to paraphrase and old adage,

befuddlement is bliss.

Posted by: rdw on February 19, 2006 at 8:18 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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