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Tilting at Windmills

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February 24, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

MORE GUANTANAMO....Knight Ridder reports on the latest disclosures about interrogation practices at Guantanamo Bay during the 2002-2004 period when Major General Geoffrey Miller was in charge of the prison there:

Military interrogators posing as FBI agents at the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, wrapped terrorism suspects in an Israeli flag and forced them to watch homosexual pornography under strobe lights during interrogation sessions that lasted as long as 18 hours, according to one of a batch of FBI memos released Thursday.

Honestly, when I read this stuff I don't know whether to be more disgusted by the moral obtuseness it displays or by its sheer stupidity. Maybe this will help make up my mind:

Military interrogators "are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite a lack of evidence of their success," [an e-mail] said.

The same e-mail complained that the military officer overseeing interrogations, a lieutenant colonel whose name was blocked out, "blatantly misled the Pentagon into believing that the (FBI's behavioral-analysis team) had endorsed the (military's) aggressive and controversial interrogation plan" during a teleconference with Pentagon officials.

The Pentagon's response? The usual. They've never had a policy that "encouraged or condoned abuse of detainees at Guantanamo." They must practice saying that with a straight face for hours every day.

Kevin Drum 1:40 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (67)

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Comments

They could be in breach of copyright. Most homosexual pornography isn't licensed for use in prison. I'm told.

Posted by: phil on February 24, 2006 at 1:46 AM | PERMALINK

John Torture Memo Yoo should be forced to read this report loudly to a group of Berkeley hippies on Telegraph Avenue.

Posted by: lib on February 24, 2006 at 1:52 AM | PERMALINK

I see the Democrat's "Contract With Al Queda" platform for the upcoming elections is coming along nicely.

Posted by: MpuntainDan on February 24, 2006 at 2:01 AM | PERMALINK

wrapped ... in an Israeli flag and forced them to watch homosexual pornography under strobe lights during ... sessions that lasted as long as 18 hours,

Maybe the reason they compare this to fraternity hazing is because this is the hazing they had to go through. That's probably where they got the idea for this bizarre, kinkified shit.

Posted by: craigie on February 24, 2006 at 2:05 AM | PERMALINK

I see the Democrat's "Contract With Al Queda" platform for the upcoming elections is coming along nicely.

Science tells us that fear is a more powerful emotion than hope, and that when people are afraid, they lose their ability to reason. Thank you for demonstrating this to the class.

You may go back to your seat now.

Posted by: craigie on February 24, 2006 at 2:07 AM | PERMALINK

...While strapped to a chair, eyelids prized open, a little bit of the ol' ultra-violence while listening to a bit of Ludwig Van.

I'm singing in the rain...

Posted by: IOKIYAR on February 24, 2006 at 2:12 AM | PERMALINK

I wonder how they missed making the prisoners watch Faux News 7x24.

BTW, I do wonder if the Israelis have any issues with the use of their flag for such purposes? For a group of folks so concerned about the desecration of the red white and blue, they don't seem to have much problem subjecting other flags to unseemly behavior.

Posted by: RickG on February 24, 2006 at 2:17 AM | PERMALINK

I see the Democrat's [sic] "Contract With Al Queda"[sic] platform for the upcoming elections is coming along nicely.

The Republicans' Contract with Jack Abramoff.

The Republicans' Contract with the United Arab Emirates.

'Nuff Said.

Posted by: Stefan on February 24, 2006 at 2:19 AM | PERMALINK

Man, scratch the surface a bit and we turned out to be some sick evil bastards, didn't we?

Please excuse me while I go through up now.

Posted by: Stefan on February 24, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

Moral nihilism.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 24, 2006 at 3:09 AM | PERMALINK

"wrapped terrorism suspects in an Israeli flag and forced them to watch homosexual pornography under strobe lights during interrogation sessions that lasted as long as 18 hours, according to one of a batch of FBI memos released Thursday."

-yikes! shades of MK Ultra!

Posted by: URK on February 24, 2006 at 3:33 AM | PERMALINK

URK:

DAMN stragight ...

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 24, 2006 at 3:36 AM | PERMALINK

I see no problem with this. I do similar things with the Israeli flag, disco lights, and a 96 inch projection TV on most weekends.

However, I do this for 24-48 hours. Why is this treatment limited to eighteen hours?

Posted by: Rumsfeld on February 24, 2006 at 4:17 AM | PERMALINK

Whoever though up the idea about the Israeli flag must have thought that there wasn't enough anti-Semitic feelings in Arab countries.

Posted by: rtaycher1987 on February 24, 2006 at 5:47 AM | PERMALINK

I do similar things with the Israeli flag, disco lights, and a 96 inch projection TV on most weekends.

I was about to say that I think I know that club.

Posted by: Alex on February 24, 2006 at 6:41 AM | PERMALINK

"I think I know that club."

I do, too--saw Karl Rove dancing with Alberto Gonzales there last week . . . ;)

Posted by: rea on February 24, 2006 at 6:44 AM | PERMALINK

[quote]"are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite a lack of evidence of their success,"[/quote]
Just take out the word "interrogation" and you have Bush doctrine in a nutshell.

Posted by: sal on February 24, 2006 at 7:30 AM | PERMALINK

Sounds more like "If she floats, she's a witch" than an interrogation.

Posted by: Boronx on February 24, 2006 at 8:26 AM | PERMALINK

Wrapping people in the Israeli flag isn't torture. You are very confused, not to say obtuse, if you can't see that.

And I don't know if it's in this particular catalogue of abuses, but having women wear short skirts isn't torture either, although lefties are properly horrified that it has occurred at Guantanamo.

Posted by: sean on February 24, 2006 at 8:33 AM | PERMALINK

Homosexual pornography? I wonder what James Dobson will think about our government paying for that stuff? Yes, James and other fundies, your tax dollars helped to pay for gay porn. Deal with it.

Posted by: Red on February 24, 2006 at 8:46 AM | PERMALINK

"Wrapping people in the Israeli flag isn't torture."

That's right, some of our politicians wrap themselves in the Israeli flag every day.

Posted by: Red on February 24, 2006 at 8:48 AM | PERMALINK

"I see the Democrat's "Contract With Al Queda" platform for the upcoming elections is coming along nicely."

Nah, the one they have with the Bush administration is working just fine for Bin Laden.

Posted by: Red on February 24, 2006 at 8:50 AM | PERMALINK

Sounds like the good ole days of Delta Kappa Epsilon at Yale - except I wonder whether the watching of the movies was "forced" on the members, not withstanding the pledges.

Posted by: thethirdPaul on February 24, 2006 at 8:54 AM | PERMALINK

PttO,

As our resident trolletariat and significantly disloyal opposition members would, no doubt, intone as they grasped their skinny little ankles:

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[whack!]

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[whack!]

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[whack!]

Posted by: Pale Rider on February 24, 2006 at 9:03 AM | PERMALINK

Now imagine - the gay porn - was hot lesbian action!

Wait, this isn't one of those "learning" stories?

My bad.

Posted by: Tripp on February 24, 2006 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

I would hope that with practice we get better at torture.

Posted by: TruthPolitik on February 24, 2006 at 9:59 AM | PERMALINK

Did somebody say hot lesbian action? Should I summon the squad?

Posted by: shortstop on February 24, 2006 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

Why General Miller is walking around free escapes me.

Posted by: Wombat on February 24, 2006 at 10:07 AM | PERMALINK

Trolls should reread 1984 and learn that what may not seem to be torture to us (being wrapped in a the Israeli flag and subjected to miniskirted ladies) may well be to others.

Skilled practitioners of torture know the psychological weaknesses of their victims. Any trolls here hate spiders? Cockroaches? Imagine being stuck in a tiny room with them 24/7. How quickly would you tell the interrogator everything you think they want to know?

Posted by: Wombat on February 24, 2006 at 10:13 AM | PERMALINK

shortstop,

Only in my dreams. (grin)

Posted by: Tripp on February 24, 2006 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

sean,

Thank you for clearing that up. Why don't you stop by Saturday night so I can 'not torture' you. Don't expect to leave anytime soon.

How does that sound?

Posted by: Tripp on February 24, 2006 at 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

I have a friend who is business professional, a director of a company, who simply cannot believe that any of the torture we have seen is directed from the white house or from the secretary of defense. He thinks that soldiers, in the heat of war, have gone beyond what they are supposed to do. I just don't know what to say to him without ruining a long friendship. The thing is that over 200 years the office of the president has been imbued with the prestige and honor of the many great men who have served in that office. Bush's biggest advantage is that people just cannot believe that the current office holder falls so very far short of those who have held the office before him.

Posted by: patrick on February 24, 2006 at 10:30 AM | PERMALINK

Question (rhetorical): what were conservatives doing with homosexual pornography, materials that their policymakers deem to be illegal, immoral, and reprehensible.

Don't ask; don't tell.

Question (eqully rhetorical): why were conservatives desecrating the flag of one of our allies?

And they say GOP anti-semitism is a thing of the past.

Not.

Posted by: Advocate for God on February 24, 2006 at 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

The laws of Karma dictate that King George will have a very big fall. Too bad to some degree, he will take all of us with him.

Posted by: fat karl on February 24, 2006 at 10:41 AM | PERMALINK

I believe that Hitler accumulated power by leading people into situations where peer pressure caused them to do things they would normally fell guilty about. The worse the actions were the more defened the people would be about having done them, and the more likely they would be to do something worse rather than face their guilt.

This dynamis is alive and well in the Bush administration. Of course, the interrogators defend their actions.

Posted by: Lindata on February 24, 2006 at 10:46 AM | PERMALINK

Has anyone read Dershowitz's latest book: "Preemption"?

No, Cheney, no one has.

Posted by: brooksfoe on February 24, 2006 at 10:52 AM | PERMALINK

Yes, a friend of mine spent his years as a kid growing up in Germany in the early 1930s.

He says the US now seems very much like Germany did while he was there.

And so few remember.

Posted by: me on February 24, 2006 at 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

So anyone who questions the use of institutional torture is clearly opposed to the virtuous beliefs on which the USA was built as well as its place as a repository of civilization. Let's ask some older Germans if that sounds vaguely familiar.

Posted by: Kenji on February 24, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK
Military interrogators "are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite a lack of evidence of their success," [an e-mail] said.

Clearly, this is one of the President's Faith-Based Initiatives.

Posted by: cmdicely on February 24, 2006 at 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

Human Rights First just released an excellent report on detainee deaths in US custody. It is an informative companion to the documents re: Guantanamo released by the ACLU and the New Yorker article on Mr. Mora and torture as a DoD policy.

www.humanrightsfirst.org

Posted by: shawn on February 24, 2006 at 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Did somebody say hot lesbian action? Should I summon the squad?

don't hold back, baby!

Posted by: craigie on February 24, 2006 at 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

I have to say, that in the midst of all the genuinely abusive and disgusting treatment of detainees, it's the non-abusive element--the Israeli flag--that stands out as the single stupidest and most counterproductive.

Are we TRYING to encourage suspected Jihadist terrorists to think that our campaign against Al-Qaeda is all just a big Israeli conspiracy? You think maybe some of these people will eventually be released and go home and talk to Al Jazeera? Is there any remotely possible way in which this little pointless gesture benefits the interests of the USA or Israel, intelligence gathering, or the efforts of sane Muslim leaders to steer people away from terrorism? Of course not. It does nothing but fan the flames of anti-semitism.

Whoever came up with this idea is a top contender for the stupidest fucking person on the face of the earth.

Posted by: Violet on February 24, 2006 at 11:56 AM | PERMALINK

Cool. A Clockwork Orange was one of my favorite movies and now, thanks to Bush and his henchmen, it is being made reality.

Posted by: Malchick on February 24, 2006 at 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

patrick,

I just don't know what to say to him without ruining a long friendship.

Agree with him, of course. As a Director of a Company his opinion is bound to be better than yours. He certainly expects everyone to agree with him. You don't want to hurt his feelings.

Posted by: Tripp on February 24, 2006 at 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

"Ach, it is so good to smell the fresh air of the Gestapo again"

Professor Siletsky

Posted by: Professor Alexander Siletsky on February 24, 2006 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

violet,

Whoever came up with this idea is a top contender for the stupidest fucking person on the face of the earth.

I don't think you should bring Bush into this without evidence.

Posted by: Tripp on February 24, 2006 at 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

Whoever came up with this idea is a top contender for the stupidest fucking person on the face of the earth.

Isn't that Doug Feith? Oh no wait, he's the "stupidest fucking guy on the planet."

It's so hard to keep the names of these new government positions straight!

Posted by: brooksfoe on February 24, 2006 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder if our "conservative" commenters here will demonstrate even a shred of human decency.
As a test, I really hope that any of their imitators could cease and desist for this thread.

We now have strong evidence that we have set up systematic US government sponsored torture - and any response that focuses narrowly on the specific practices in this post is dishonest.
We have innocent people who have experienced medieval torture; we have innocent people who have been killed. From the National Journal article, we also tortured real (TM) bad guys - to the extent that we drove one of them insane; while he was losing his mind he "implicated" essentially everyone else in Gitmo, and this is now being used to justify holding them. The fact that we chose round-the-clock torture of the most sadistic and brutal kind rather than putting someone on trial is a sign of a complete moral breakdown. Bush and the entire command structure now deserve nothing less than war crimes trials.

Either we speak up about this, or we are nothing but good little Germans. This is beyond politics; it is a test of what kind of people we are. Is there no decency left in the Republican party? Is there no one here from the GOP who can treat this as something other than a &&$^&# sporting event, where their job is to root for their team?

Posted by: Marc on February 24, 2006 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

Tripp: "agree with him"

I walk the line, I say some things, but stop short of an all out argument. But I will tell you, I live in a moderatly conservative state, (Missouri), and have a fair amount of friends who are kind of the classic old-style conservatives, businessmen who like thinks pretty much the way they are, and I have never had so much trouble combining friendship and politics. Partly because I have become more and more outraged, and partly because I cannot believe they haven't. As I said, I think a large part of it is Bush has the tradition of the presidency going for him, and people just cannot bring themselves to think that a president of the united states would so blatantly lie, torture, and kill to further his own agenda.

Posted by: patrick on February 24, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

Well, on the "lying" thing, that's just inexplicable. How many rip-roaring, baldfaced presidential lies do you have to see before you conclude that people don't get administered a magic truth serum when they take the oath of office? "I am not a crook," "Read my lips," "I did not have sex with that woman"...? And that's even assuming they're Reagan-worshippers who wouldn't accept he lied about Iran-Contra. Hell, the only recent presidents without conspicuous lies were Jimmy "Too Decent a Guy to Be President" Carter, and Gerald "Just Keeping the Seat Warm, Folks" Ford.

Posted by: brooksfoe on February 24, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, I've got an idea!

Let's just release them all. We don't need to finding out about any terrorist activities, we can just stop worrying about it. So what if some of the ones already released have blown the odd thing or two up?

In fact, let's just release them all on the campus of Berkeley where they'll be in with their own kind.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

It's just not right that the American taxpayers should be footing the bill to entertain people at Guantanamo. I say shut it down or at least remove all the prisoners and either return them to their home countries or transfer them to the civilian prison system.

How much money are they wasting on all that entertainment? Do they have a disco dance hall too? Do they let the prisoners decorate their own cells?

First you get Dick Cheney shooting an old man in the face and now you get weird entertainment for gays in Gitmo. What's the world coming to?

[ Note: I actually intend a bit of sarcasm in this post, but I also noticed afterward that it was probably going to be misinterpreted by our Conservative bretheren on this blog as somehow serious. Dumbasses. ]

Posted by: MarkH on February 24, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

I also noticed afterward that it was probably going to be misinterpreted by our Conservative bretheren on this blog as somehow serious. Dumbasses.
I think you're mistaken, us conservatives are the ones with a sense of humor. Or at least we're the happy ones.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 3:00 PM | PERMALINK

Ignorance is bliss, Mr. Nut.

Posted by: Red on February 24, 2006 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

Ignorance is bliss, Mr. Nut.
You've lost the last 2 elections, got rolled on the Iraq war vote, came up short on AWOL, had a candidate derailed by a handful of Swift Vets, Rove was not frog marched from the WH, etc.

I'll take ignorance over getting repeatedly whipped by ignorance.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 3:29 PM | PERMALINK

The TV serial Babylon 5 featured some pretty nasty inter-personal dealings, but now it turns out that the script might very well have been crafted out of real life American military and political conduct. Not even the Brits in their endless war against Ireland have come down to the dark cavern where your public servants torture without purpose.
It was an Iranian religious leader who is well remembered for saying that America is the Great Satan. Probably billions of people believe it now.

Posted by: garhane on February 24, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

Ya, it's not being reasonable or right that's important, it's winning. I like being ignorant if it means I'm not a loser.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

Not as good as your last attempt.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

THE CONSERVATIVE EMPATHY DEFICIT

conspiracy propeller head:

I read Will's tongue-in-cheek piece on Happy Conservatives. Just
the usual social-science mockery among the typical assertions of
what makes conservatives he's spewed so many times before, this
time for the sake of being silly. But he's wrong about one point.
Modern conservatives don't embrace the Law of Unintended Consequences.
If they did, they never would have invaded Iraq. Nor would they
promote privatizing Social Security -- a measure rejected because,
foremost among other reasons, it was considered simply too risky.

You have to appreciate that conservatism hasn't been philosophically
consistent in America since the times when it began championing
business interests over the public interest -- at least since the
SC Lockner decision at the turn of the century and probably earlier
than that during the Gilded Age. Argue the origin if you'd like,
but American conservatives have wholeheartedly embraced classical
liberalism's advocacy of an unfettered market. Classical liberalism
is innovative, not traditionalist. It has little to say about
values, and it frets not about the inherent limits of human nature.

In the 19th century, it used to be tbat conservative (Tories) were
the dour ones: always asserting limits, being practical, denying
pleasure -- and it was those naughty children of the Enlightenment
who had such a blast thumbing their noses at the Church and tradition.

Now that the tables have turned (somewhat), today we have the Happy
Conservatives. People going around being Happy don't tend to assert
limits or tut-tut bold new projects because they have a well-grounded
respect for the fact that people tend to fuck things up. That kind
of received wisdom is more often a liberal preoccupation these days.

Conservative are going around Happy because Conservatives as a general
rule have an enormous *empathy deficit*. This explains virtually
everything about modern conservative philosophy and resolves the
inherent contradiction between moralism and free-market boosterism.

Take abortion: Conservative pro-lifers claim they feel "compassion"
for the unborn, but it's a sham. How can you feel compassion for an
entity that doesn't have enough of a CNS to cognize pain? And they
obviously care little for providing birth control or an economic
safety net that it would make it easier for these women who "made
a bad choice" to have a child to begin with. Pro-choice liberals,
OTOH, base their position solidly on real empathy for the mother.

Happy Conservatives don't embrace the Free Market simultaneously
with a concern for Unintended Consequences. They do it knowing
that their own positions are MOL secure, and project all that
Creative Destruction ho-ha onto people whose lives have just
become that much more insecure (witness East Germany, Moscow and
Poland immediately after the Fall) because of the Free Market
reforms they've advocated. Liberals support market regulations, OTOH,
precisely because, contra George Will, they have a healthy respect
for the unintended consequences of the marketplace and empathize
with the people who might suffer them. IOW, Conservatives *just
don't give a shit* about people not in their immediate environments.

Which makes them have, you know, a morality deficit as well.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 24, 2006 at 5:20 PM | PERMALINK

IOW, Conservatives *just don't give a shit* about people not in their immediate environments.
I know what you mean, those mean old conservatives just wanted to leave the Iraqis to rot under Saddam.

Geez, what are you gonna do?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on February 24, 2006 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut:

Which is why, you know, we invaded Iraq because of their WMD program.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 24, 2006 at 6:00 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut:

We'll blow you up today so you can have a brighter tomorrow for your grandchildren.

Provided, of course, we don't blow up your grandchildren as well ...

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on February 24, 2006 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK

This kind of reminds me of the stuff from the Robert Anton Wilson book The Illuminatus Trilogy, where he talks about the old Hashashim cult, where new initiates were brought into a walled garden, with naked frolicking virgin girls, and given lots of hash.

Then they were told that they were in Paradise, and if they accomplished their mission (akin to a modern-day suicide bombing) they'd be allowed to return.

Only in this case, maybe they're trying to convince them they're in hell, and they can be released back to Earth if they talk.

Plausible?

Ironic that it's roughly the same geographic region. . .

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on February 24, 2006 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

This is utterly idiotic. This is how you prepare people to RESIST interrogation. Wrapping guys in the flag of a loathed country, showing depraved images. All these 'interrogators' have done is to prove to the victims that they are weak and desperate.

Sure you can get people to 'talk' this way, but the chances of getting any useful information out of them is negligible. They are just going to make stuff up.

Torture is only useful as a method of extracting confessions. It has absolutely no value in interrogations because there is no way to know whether the victim is telling the truth.

Posted by: Phill on February 24, 2006 at 10:07 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, Mr. Nut's boys won 2 elections. That's really the End of History, alright. I guess libs ought to just pack up their toys and go home.

Posted by: Red on February 25, 2006 at 12:34 AM | PERMALINK


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Posted by: 国际贸易 on February 25, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK


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Posted by: 国际贸易 on February 25, 2006 at 8:46 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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