Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

February 25, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

HEROISM....Over at The Corner, Warren Bell calls for Hollywood to make more movies about "the heroism of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq." In particular, he'd like to see someone make a movie about the death of football star Pat Tillman, who left his lucrative civilian career to join the Army in 2002 and was killed in Afghanistan 2004. So, courtesy of Robert Collier of the San Francisco Chronicle, here's the story:

Tillmans death came at a sensitive time for the Bush administration just a week before the Armys abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in Iraq became public and sparked a huge scandal. The Pentagon immediately announced that Tillman had died heroically in combat with the enemy, and President Bush hailed him as an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror.....Not until five weeks later, as Tillmans battalion was returning home, did officials inform the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by his fellow soldiers.

....Mary Tillman believes that with her sons high profile, and the fact that Rumsfeld sent him a personal letter, the word [that Pat had been killed by friendly fire] quickly reached the defense secretary. If Pat was on Rumsfelds radar, its pretty likely that he would have been informed right away after he was killed, she said.

....The administration clearly was using this case for its own political reasons, said the father, Patrick Tillman. This cover-up started within minutes of Pats death, and it started at high levels. This is not something that (lower-ranking) people in the field do, he said.

....Tillmans unique character...was more complex than the public image of a gung-ho patriotic warrior....Mary Tillman said a friend of Pats even arranged a private meeting with [Noam] Chomsky, the antiwar author, to take place after his return from Afghanistan a meeting prevented by his death. She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.

....I can see it like a movie screen, [Spc. Russell] Baer said....We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we werent in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, You know, this war is so f illegal. And we all said, Yeah. Thats who he was. He totally was against Bush.

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bushs Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.

Let's recap: Tillman, a genuine hero who wanted to go to Afghanistan to fight al-Qaeda, was instead sent initially to Iraq to fight in a war he thought was stupid and illegal. On the big screen, this would play out as a symbol of George Bush's feckless attitude toward Osama bin Laden that practically kicks you in the face. What's more, Tillman's death didn't come during combat, but instead was the result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops. His parents are convinced not without reason that the Army tried to cover this up, and that the Bush administration then spent five weeks touting a phony version of what happened in order to help their political cause during an election year. To cap it all off, his friends say Tillman blamed Bush for the mess in Iraq and supported John Kerry in the 2004 election.

Sounds like an Oliver Stone picture to me. Informed about all this, Bell says defensively that he never asked for "a whitewash of history" and would of course be fine with a movie that told the whole story, warts and all. "Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

Indeed. What would ever have given us that idea?

Kevin Drum 2:57 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (163)

Bookmark and Share
 
Comments

wow.

My first take is: you're making this up.

You can't buy stuff like this. They hand it to you on a platter.

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK

i look forward to the scene at tillman's funeral where pat's brother thanks them for their prayers, but points out that pat was an atheist.

Posted by: benjoya on February 25, 2006 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

benjoya. woo-hoo, sug!

I'm still wondering what will become of me the next time I'm deposed and I offer "So help me Sam L. Clemens" as an alternate.

eeek

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK

I think the story Kevin described would make a great movie.

an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror. - I didn't realize that all the "heroes" in "The War On Terror" were footbal players.

Posted by: brewmn on February 25, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

But the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

And isn't all that matters that we Republicans feel good?

Posted by: Freedom Phukher on February 25, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Christian Bale as Pat Tillman
Chris Cooper as George W Bush
Richard Dreyfuss as Dick Cheney
Philip Seymour Hoffman as Karl Rove
Stephen Root as Scott McClellan
Michael Gambon as Don Rumsfeld

Posted by: Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

I did a piece about Tillman for (of all places) the NY Sun, comparing him to a nearly forgotten fallen hero of the First World War, Eddie Grant.

If somebody wants to make a movie about Tillman (email me!), the thing to do is to make it about HIM, not about anybody's political agenda -- including his, frankly. He was a person, who had a life; tell the story truthfully and let people draw their own conclusions.

I'd give Bell this much: he seems to understand that what was heroic about Tillman is nothing like what Bush has claimed about the war. Unlike a lot of folks making life and death decisions for guys like him, Tillman not only showed up, he volunteered.

That's a heavy burden on those responsible.

["Harvard Eddie" Grant was a lawyer who played major league baseball about a hundred years ago -- decent ballplayer, but not great. Was teammates with Christy Matthewson, though. John McGraw cut Grant in 1915, sentencing him to become rich on Wall Street instead of playing baseball for rent money in the Polo Grounds. Then America joined the war, and Grant -- like Matthewson -- volunteered to fight. Matthewson actually had to personally insist to President Wilson before he was allowed join the Chemical Weapons Division: in 1916, that was like volunteering to hit nukes with a hammer. Captain Grant was killed leading a suicide mission in 1918 to save the Lost Battalion, led by a fellow Wall Street lawyer. When he was already dying himself, partly from an accident training with poison gas, Matthewson made the Giants put up a monument to Eddie Grant right on the Polo Grounds' centerfield -- in the photo of the famous Willie Mays' catch of Vic Werz's line drive in the 1950s, you can see the Grant monument. It somehow vanished when the old ballpark was torn down -- and like Tillman will be one day, Harvard Eddie is forgotten: sic transit gloria mundi.)

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 25, 2006 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINK

But the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

And isn't all that matters that we Republicans feel good?
Posted by: Freedom Phukher

Bet you guys can get the same screenwriter who did "Red Scorpion". I suspect he works cheap.

>>Michael Gambon as Don Rumsfeld

Rolling on the floor

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINK

Does the article really quote from anonymous sources?

That is suspect.

"An anonymous source said Pat Tillman was a Kerry supporter, and repeatedly told soldiers the war was all about oil."

Enough already with the anonymous sources, OK?

Posted by: MountainDan on February 25, 2006 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

Cool story, Americanist.

Really.

But can you imagine any situation today where a Wall Street lawyer (or a Wall Street anything) would risk anything more life threatening than a paper cut in defense of anything more pressing than a tax loophole?

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK


KEVIN DRUM: Sounds like an Oliver Stone picture to me. Informed about all this, Bell says defensively that he never asked for "a whitewash of history" and would of course be fine with a movie that told the whole story, warts and all. "Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

If such a movie were to be made, and if all the dialog in the movie was taken verbatim from audio and videotapes of Tillman's conversations, it would still be mocked--on the right and the (so-called) left--for being radical leftist propaganda . . . as the truth always is.


Posted by: jayarbee on February 25, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

They SHOULD make THAT movie about Pat.


Its totally instructive of the right and wrong of the last five years.


A fully justified action in Afghanistan with quite a bit of heroism and grit involved with 9/11 as the backdrop, followed by...


The complete and utter bastardization of a worthy fight derailed by a greedy and corrupt leadership that exploits the cause and misdirects us to Iraq. The karmic tragedy ending with Pat's death in a mishap and the US enmired in quicksand in Iraq.


Its a story that tells us what is right about our instincts in the fight against terror, and what is wrong with the government that should be leading us in the right direction.


Make that film!

Posted by: Ten in Tenn on February 25, 2006 at 3:29 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin Drum wrote:

Sounds like an Oliver Stone picture to me.

Nah, Stone's toast...Clooney's my pick for director...Casting Director pretty much nailed the actors, but I'd try out Sam Rockwell in age makeup for Dubya as well as Robert Vaughn for Rummy.

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

CFShep, Michael Gambon is the only actor that came to mind that could convey that arrogant creepiness that Rummy is so famous for.

Maybe Gene Hackman might work as well. Albert Finney?

Posted by: Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

Ooo, Robert Vaughn as Rummy!!!

You're hired, grape!

Posted by: Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 3:33 PM | PERMALINK

I like the my favorite conservative blogger, the Cunning Realist's take on this from last year:

The extent of the disgrace defies belief: the initial coverup of the way Tillman died, the harvesting of that death for political expedience as the Abu Ghraib story broke, the predictable promotions of those arguably responsible for what happened on the ground that day, the changing of crucial testimony, the destruction of physical evidence, and the willful, flat-out lies our political and military leadership told to Tillman's family and the American public.
Yep. Right up Oliver Stone's alley.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 3:35 PM | PERMALINK

Interesting to see more coming out about Pat Tillman. Ted Rall just did a cartoon about the fakery involved in the Tod Beamer, flight-93 hero myth. Flight 93 must have been shot down if the wreckage is scattered over miles.


Dick and Harry's Awful Adventure

Featuring:
Aerosmith
Led Zeppelin
Pat Benatar
Bon Jovi
Johnny Cash
Frank Sinatra
The Fugees & DJ Hype


Posted by: Balzac on February 25, 2006 at 3:36 PM | PERMALINK

But can you imagine any situation today where a Wall Street lawyer (or a Wall Street anything) would risk anything more life threatening than a paper cut in defense of anything more pressing than a tax loophole?

Hey, where'd this random swipe at me come from? ;-)

And don't mock paper cuts. I nearly bled out from several deep ones I endured during an all-night drafting session...

Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 3:38 PM | PERMALINK

Well, on second thought, now that I've seen grape_crush's post, yeah, Clooney is a better idea.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 3:39 PM | PERMALINK

No, no, Jon Voight (the actor, not the dentist) as Rumsfeld. Voight already did a quite convincing faux-MacNamara in "Enemy of the State," and Rumsfeld is really nothing more than a warmed-over MacNamara.

Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, I haven't really read anything about Tillman, but my brother told me all this stuff about him-- Tillman sounds like a cool cat + the real deal. It's too bad, what happened to him. RIP

Posted by: Swan on February 25, 2006 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?" There's loads of money on the right for propaganda; nothing is keeping rightwingers from funding indie films accompanied by expensive advertising campaigns. indeed, nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

admittedly, makingn a good movie is hard work. bitching at hollywood is undoubtedly more fun.

Posted by: howard on February 25, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 3:33 PM:

You're hired, grape!

Sweet. When do I get to sleep with the starlets?

....

Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

howard: every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?" There's loads of money on the right for propaganda; nothing is keeping rightwingers from funding indie films accompanied by expensive advertising campaigns. indeed, nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

Great point, and even more ironic since these whines usually come one paragraph below paeans to the free market and the virtues of entrepreneurship. To make a movie you simply need a script and some money -- yeah, yeah, it's a lot more complicated than that in the specifics but in the abstract that's all you need. Considering the vast amounts of money the right-wing spends to catapult the propaganda by buying off journalists and planting fake stories in newspapers and on TV, I'm a little suprised that their not just simply not making their own movies.

Then again, these movies would then have to be subjected to the relatively impartial test that people would actually want to see them, so I suppose there's that....

Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?

I'd say David Spade, if he was taller and a little more masculine.


Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

"Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?"

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

Thinking it over (again), I suppose the theme of it is what heroism actually means.

My Dad flew with Ted Williams during WW2, and he explained to me that the thing about a guy like Williams, which I suspect is similar to Tillman's motivation, is that he was quite simply the best at whatever he did, and he CHOSE to do . The skills involved in being a fighter pilot aren't all that different from a .400 hitter (hand eye coordination, ferocity, arrogance), and being a Ranger isn't unlike being in the NFL.

I remember Sports Illustrated did a piece around 1990 or so about Rangers, that started with the debate over which sport really does produce the best athletes -- basketball players are tall, football players large, marathon runners have endurance, etc. The decathlon and pentathlon are supposed to produce well-rounded athletes, people who can run and jump and even shoot -- so the SI guy went and looked at what Rangers do: humping heavy equipment across unfamiliar, rugged terrain, very high tech demands, and absolutely lethal skills.

Might not be a bad place to start a Tillman biopic.

Both Williams (plus millions of others) and Tillman volunteered, of course, after America was attacked: but Tillman's life can't be the thoughtless propaganda that Bell expects.

A good story has a contradiction and resolution in it: I think for Tillman, it's how his own opinion while in uniform and in harm's way of the Iraq war (very American of him, don't ya think?) and the attempt to cover up that he was killed by friendly fire doesn't detract in the slightest from the heroic nature of his sacrifice.

Hell, that might be the way to communicate without preaching, just by telling the truth of his story: I remember how awed I was when I learned about Stephen Ambrose interviewing Eisenhower on Omaha beach in 1965. Ambrose asked Ike what he thought about, looking back at unconditional victory over undeniable evil. Ambrose didn't expect Ike to say that he thought of all those young men who never got to be fathers, of the grandchildren that would never be born, and he wondered if it was all really worth it -- and if future leaders would start wars, if they really knew the cost.

So -- a working title for a Tillman biopic: "Way To Lead."

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 25, 2006 at 3:54 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, the liberal, politically correct white-washing of Pat Tillman.

Pat Tillman was a true patriot and American hero. Something you lefties apparently can't fathom.

Posted by: egbert on February 25, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

grape_crush: Nah, Stone's toast...Clooney's my pick for director..

Careful, grape -- you know that if you say George Clooney's name three times in succession that rdw will appear in a cloud of fire and brimstone.

Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 4:05 PM | PERMALINK

eggbert, so what part does Pat Tillman's family play in this white washing conspiracy?

I have a roll for you too, egbert, in the upcoming film bio of Tillman's life. You can play the stunt boulder on a mountain during the scene in the mountains of Afghanistan. You can just sit there and stay in character for the duration of the shoot.
When the scene calls for it, the boulder gets accidentally blown up and falls off the mountain way way way down.

I think you'd be perfect for the part, egbert! Just think, you can brag to all your friends, real or imaginary, that you got your big break in pictures!!!

Posted by: Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 4:05 PM | PERMALINK

And don't mock paper cuts. I nearly bled out from several deep ones I endured during an all-night drafting session...
Posted by: Stefan

I luv ya sweets.

May I kiss it and make it better?

>mwah

Once upon a time I was a specialist in Fiduciary Income Taxation so I can empathize.

But what I really want to know is whether they will write in a part for that little Jessica girl?
Fighting unto death with her jammed gun? Her.

Way to go,
WashPo.

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

" every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?"

Oh, I can't resist: gee, it must be 20 years ago now that the WSJ did yet another editorial
kvetching that Hollywood hates religion, capitalism, and America, and cited as an
example Martin Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ. This produced one of the
finest letters to the editor I've ever read, and it bugs me to this day that I didn't keep a copy.

If memory serves, the editorial said that Scorcese was just an apparatchik in this Hollywood crusade against decency, or something to that effect, cranking out a film like TLToC as just the latest instance of Hollywood's party line.

So Scorcese read this over coffee one morning, called up the Journal, and asked to speak to the writer who wrote the editorial, who of course hadn't called HIM before writing it. After bouncing around a bit (right wingers aren't any more used to folks challenging their self-serving myths than any other herd of ideologues), Scorcese got to talk to the guy, who turned out to be a 25 year old graduate of Dartmouth, I think it was.

Scorcese asked him what he'd done before he got the job writing editorials for the Journal; the kid explained that he'd had an internship at the Heritage Foundation or some such place.

So Scorcese wrote this in his letter, and pointed out: 'every few years, I make a movie. That means I raise about $25 million in venture capital from scratch, with 100% risk for the investors. A film loses money, the investors get nothing. 'All
my films make money', he wrote in his letter. 'While I'm filming, I employ hundreds of highly skilled professionals, all of them independent, and each of whom I recruit in a very competitive market.

'I've made', he said whatever it was, '20 films or so, which perhaps would be easier for your editorialists to understand if you thought of it as 20 straight successful entrepreneurial start up businesses -- which is 20 more than your editorial writer.'

Finally, he noted: 'I'm a religious guy. Unlike your editorial writer, I AM a capitalist
-- he got his job as a reward for following an ideological line. He's never made money for an investor or met a payroll in his life -- and he didn't call me before he accused me', Scorcese said, 'of believing precisely the opposite of what I've actually done.'

'Which one of us is the apparatchik?'


(apologies to Martin Scorcese if I've misremembered your letter: I DID ask Capra for it once, and you didn't have it, either)

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 25, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

I rarely laugh at the stupid shit that political commentators (on either side) write to disavow their partisanship. But Warren Bell's quote made me snort and wonder if he's just deluded or intentionally being mendacious.

Posted by: Andrew on February 25, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

Speaking seriously for a second, my brother, who works in Hollywood, tells me that there are several potential Tillman treatments and scripts that he's seen. (Of course, there are always millions of treatments and scripts on every subject working their way around, and 99% never get made, but at least there's a slim chance).

Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

Egbert, I agree that Tilmann was a patriot and a hero in the best sense of those terms. The true story of what he believed and how he died does not change that.

It is just that the truth does not reflect particularly well on the administration, and the way the army and the administration lied to exploit his death should be a major embarassment to both.

Posted by: tanj on February 25, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

Casting Director: You can play the stunt boulder on a mountain during the scene in the mountains of Afghanistan. You can just sit there and stay in character for the duration of the shoot.

ROTFLMAO! Oh, that was good! Tears in eyes...LOL!

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 4:12 PM | PERMALINK

Now that is truly a great one.

>>>cutting and pasting to Notebook. (with attribution - such as it is)

Props to you, Amercanist.

Casting:

Still like Gambon for Rummy. It's an inspired choice. If he has other obligations, I think Albert Finney would be brilliant.

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

Casting: what about Matt Damon as Jeff Gannon/Guckert?

- I didn't realize that all the "heroes" in "The War On Terror" were footbal players.
Posted by: brewmn on February 25, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Close. The true heroes are the Cheerleaders.

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on February 25, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

"Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

And in his next sentence: "...one-sided propaganda is the left's signature move..."

This ill-informed weiner steps in it, backpedals furiously, and then tries to lash out with a "I know you are but what am I?". Weak.

Posted by: exasperanto on February 25, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 3:52 PM:

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.

Yeah, but we'd have to starve him first then Botox his face so it wouldn't move when he spoke.

howard on February 25, 2006 at 3:46 PM:

nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

True...Except talent, creativity, skill, et cetera; all the things needed to make a movie worth seeing. Generally, far rightwingers are unfunny and a bit lame...When is the last time that you've heard a rightwinger say something intentionally funny? Compare Patton to craigie, for example...

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

Given how screwed up the last five years have been and how the boundary between fact and fiction has become so twisted, I'm tempted to suggest that Spike Jonze ought to direct a Charlie Kaufman screenplay.

I do agree with the folks who don't want Oliver Stone on this project. Clooney's a good choice, but Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.

Posted by: Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

On second thought, David O Russell has already done one Iraq War pic. He could do something cool with Tillman's story, too.

Posted by: Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:19 PM | PERMALINK

I do agree with the folks who don't want Oliver Stone on this project. Clooney's a good choice, but Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.
Posted by: Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

Fuck that shit.

Terry Gilliam all the way.

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on February 25, 2006 at 4:20 PM | PERMALINK

Americanist, thanks for the Scorcese bit. I'll never forgive him for the abomination that was Gangs of New York, but that sounds like a great letter.

Posted by: Henry Holland on February 25, 2006 at 4:22 PM | PERMALINK

I'll tell you what, there's some folks here this afternoon had their Wheeties:

"Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?"

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.
Posted by: MJ Memphis


Oh oh oh

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

Only a fucking idiot would want to watch some shit like this. Just neocon propaganda. Maybe Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.

Posted by: red_neck_repub on February 25, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

In the biz we call that "truthiness"

Posted by: Irony Man on February 25, 2006 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINK

Only a fucking idiot would want to watch some shit like this. Just neocon propaganda. Maybe Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.
Posted by: red_neck_repub on February 25, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

. . . or a cheerleader outfit, waving pom-poms.

Hey, but I thought they already did a rightwing Heroes/Feel-good movie, wasn't it called "Team America"?

Posted by: osama_been_forgotten on February 25, 2006 at 4:31 PM | PERMALINK

Martin Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ

Ah, a fine film. Have the director's cut in DVD. Thanks for the story.

CD, I'm still LMAO at egbert as a stunt boulder! I gotta email the permalink to my joke-loving friends. LOL! To paraphrase Bobby Lee of MadTV, "You funny fella."

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

theamericanist, let me add my kudos: great, great story. i hope you've remembered it more or less accurately!

Posted by: howard on February 25, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 4:05 PM:

you know that if you say George Clooney's name three times in succession that rdw will appear in a cloud of fire and brimstone.

Heh. I said it only once and egbert showed up.

egbert on February 25, 2006 at 3:56 PM:

Pat Tillman was a true patriot and American hero.

Who was critical of the Iraq war and was a Chomsky enthusiast...Thanks for admitting that we can be critical of the Iraq war and yet still be patriotic.

That really was a half-hearted attempt at trolling, egbert. Please try better next time, m'kay?

Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM:

Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.

Nah. I have Gaghan for the screenplay. He did write Traffic and Syriana...Which, come to think of it, Steven Soderbergh could be a good choice for the director's chair as well.

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

red_neck_repub on February 25, 2006 at 4:28 PM:

Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.

Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

Casting Director,

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

Posted by: egbert on February 25, 2006 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK

Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?
Posted by: grape_crush

Sigfried & Roy?

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

Slander? You mean rightwingers support lawsuits?

Posted by: Ev on February 25, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

grape_crush: Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?

Ringling Brothers Circus might have some available talent. : )

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

If Warren Bell wants a Hollywood production about the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan he can get off his candy ass and write a very special episode of According to Jim where Jim Belushi and whoever else is in that piece of shit show travel to Iraq or Afghanistan and entertain the troops. And he can go with the cast to film the episode.

It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone.

Posted by: Moron Bell on February 25, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

"Slander? You mean rightwingers support lawsuits?"

Of course. They just oppose frivolous lawsuits. A "frivolous lawsuit" is simply defined as one filed either a) by a Democrat or b) against a Republican.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 5:00 PM | PERMALINK

Moron Bell,

"It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone."

Ouch! That is just cold.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

I e-mailed Warren Bell at NRO regarding his complaint there has been no movies on the Iraq war. I mentioned to him the Jessica Lynch TV movie and the series "Over There". I asked if he wanted the story of the lies about Tillman's death exposed and the anquish his parents have suffered? He responded to me by saying he felt bad for Tillman's parents and would wish the movie would emphasize Tillman's enlistment and service. Now he is addressing those who e-mailed him these sentiments by implying that the right would not react negatively but our response is just confirmation of liberal recognition of their bias. HUH?

Posted by: Jeanne on February 25, 2006 at 5:04 PM | PERMALINK

Terry Gilliam all the way.

No, no. Gilliam has to do the absurdity/horror show of Iraq.

Lars Von Trier has to do the horror of American Policy practices Afghanistan!

Posted by: Martin on February 25, 2006 at 5:07 PM | PERMALINK

osama_bin_forgotten:Fuck that shit.
Terry Gilliam all the way.

That's brilliant, better than my suguestions.

Posted by: Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINK

Here is a slander egbert.

You should have enlisted long ago but obviously have not because you are either cowardly, hypocritical, or a traitor to your ideals such as they are. Or, perhaps you are too old. But one can then ask, are your children serving? Perhaps you have no children because you live in your mother's basement and could not enlist even as a grade 4. In that case, you are forgiven.

Posted by: Ba'al on February 25, 2006 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINK

So, in Bobo's world, a boulder sitting on a mountain has the right to file a lawsuit for slander?

The surely can the Gitmo inmates seek redress in the courts.

Posted by: lib on February 25, 2006 at 5:10 PM | PERMALINK

every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?"

Mainly because Leni Riefenstahl isn't available anymore.

Posted by: Joshua Norton on February 25, 2006 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINK

egbert on February 25, 2006 at 4:52 PM:

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

By suggesting that you play a boulder? Ooooh...Scary egbert uses a legal-type word. We'd better all watch it or egbert will pull out 'antidisestablishmentarianism' to make us curl up into a fetal position...

Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter.

CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:55 PM:

Sigfried & Roy?

No, silly...I said 'play Dubya's codpiece', not 'play on Dubya's codpiece'...Hey; is Robert Novak looking for work? He'd be perfect.

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 5:15 PM | PERMALINK

You ever hear of slander?

Speaking of the original slander drag queen, how does Man Coulter get away with "jokes" about murder?

Coulter on killing Bill Clinton:
(Responding to a question from a Catholic University student about her biggest moral or ethical dilemma) "There was one time I had a shot at Clinton. ..."
Coulter on the Supreme Court:
"If we find out someone [referring to a terrorist] is going to attack the Supreme Court next week, can't we tell Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalito?" [Cite]
...Coulter, speaking at a traditionally black college, joked that Justice John Paul Stevens should be poisoned. [] We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens creme brulee, Coulter said. [Cite]

Good one, Ba'al. With a little more hunting, we could find lots of egbert slanders here at WaMo.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Egbert, buddy, you got me all wrong.

I was only trying to make sure the right part went to the right person and given that your personality seems to rank inbetween fossils and sediment, I figured a boulder would be the perfect part for you. Thick headed and inert.

See, here in the evil bastion of librul Amurica, hollywood, we try to give our customers what they want.

If they want to see the pain and emotion from that boulder when it falls, then it is up to you to find the emotions deep within yourself and BECOME the boulder, egbert, BECOME the boulder!!!


Posted by: Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

Andy Dick for Jeff Gannon. And Ann Coulter.

Posted by: cld on February 25, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

In the Bell note linked by Kevin is the following gem:

Is it because one-sided propaganda is the
left's signature move, and they assume that given a chance we would do
it that way, too?


Are these guys ignorant of the propaganda devices of the right or just extremely arrogant and deluded pricks?

Posted by: lib on February 25, 2006 at 5:29 PM | PERMALINK

grape_crush: Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter.

Not bad. But lookie here. And check out her card from a playing deck.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

Joshua Norton on February 25, 2006 at 5:14 PM:

Mainly because Leni Riefenstahl isn't available anymore.

Joshua's got my nomination for best comment of this thread with this post. Why can't I ever think of shit this good?

Moron Bell on February 25, 2006 at 4:59 PM:

It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone.

Yeah, I don't get that show either; I wanted to like it just because I kinda knew Larry Campbell back at school, but just couldn't disconnect my head enough to suffer through it.

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

BECOME the boulder, egbert, BECOME the boulder!!!

You're killing us here, Casting Director.

Posted by: exasperanto on February 25, 2006 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, I don't get that show either; I wanted to like it just because I kinda knew Larry Campbell back at school, but just couldn't disconnect my head enough to suffer through it.
Posted by: grape_crush

Kurt Russell sat right behind me at Waverly Heights Elementary in Thousand Oaks...we can't even think of this flick without Kurt.

And that solves the codpiece casting...

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

lib: Are these guys ignorant of the propaganda devices of the right or just extremely arrogant and deluded pricks?

Lakoff explained it, "For there to be relief there must be an affliction, an afflicted party, and a reliever who removes the affliction and is therefore a hero, and if people try to stop the hero, those people are villains for trying to prevent relief."

The brainwashed worship villian-heroes. Hold your horses. Wait until V for Vendetta comes out. The wingnuts will go crazy.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK

Speaking of slander: Apollo 13, that was a horrible insult to a noble and beautiful breed of dog.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get an Afghan Hound to live on chardonnay and cigarettes.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 5:52 PM | PERMALINK

My apologies, MJ Memphis. You're right. : )

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK

I normally don't go around correcting spelling unless Norman Rogers is the one doing the misspelling, but this one's a pet peeve, so forgive me:

It's SCORSESE. There is no second C in this man's name.

Hey, MJ! How was Thailand! Tell us some stories.

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:04 PM | PERMALINK

Casting Director,

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

I'm in hysterics over this. Can you imagine egbert in person?

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:08 PM | PERMALINK

Shortie, my sweet.

Urgent you tell Bob re Norman.

eeeek

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

Hey shortstop! It was great, I'm finally over my jet lag. ;) I stayed in Bangkok most of the time, but did get to go to a nice little beach town and to the ancient city of Ayudhayya to see some really neat ruins. I got a 2 hour Thai massage most every day ($9! Can you beat that?), had some of the best food going (including at the little restuarant owned by my fiancee's oldest aunt), did a lot of shopping, and took my fiancee out a couple times to a little French cafe in the middle of the Patpong red-light district, where we had drinks and watched the street scene. Didn't take as many pictures on this trip, but I did take a few- I can email 'em if you want.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

Shoot 'em over, MJ, when it's convenient. I love all travel, mine and everyone else's. Glad you had a groovy time.

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:18 PM | PERMALINK

"in the photo of the famous Willie Mays' catch of Vic Werz's line drive in the 1950s, you can see the Grant monument. It somehow vanished when the old ballpark was torn down -- and like Tillman will be one day, Harvard Eddie is forgotten: sic transit gloria mundi."

Make that "sic transit gloria U.S.". I know this is slightly off topic, but I adventured at a lot of websites recently who are covering the ruins of 20th century skycrapers, Hotels, factories, powerhouses etc. Many of them are demolished today, all that's left are the photos some enthusiasts made. Imho, it's shortsighted foolishness how you americans treat the monuments of the past. What doesn't exist anymore won't remind you of lessons learned before and prevent you from basing your decisions on historical insights. On the other hand, this might be exactly what reublicans want: Don't think, just follow the leader!

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 6:20 PM | PERMALINK

"Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
The right wing is ALL about one-sided propaganda. EVERYTHING is about bombastic, simpleton flag-waving ideology -- Left Behind, John Wayne's Green Berets, Lee Greenwood.
Not to mention their cartoonish, intelligence-free politicians -- Reagan, Schwarzenegger, W.

Posted by: Mike G on February 25, 2006 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK

CF: Hee. Whose urgency? I don't negotiate with terrorists. Or tempests. Life's too short for that crap.

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:23 PM | PERMALINK

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

Interesting idea.

Who'd be the plaintiff? Egbert or the boulder?

Posted by: frankly0 on February 25, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

frankly, ha!

Bailiff: All rise! Er, except you, sir. You may roll.

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:27 PM | PERMALINK

Hate to derail somewhere else, but after reading this, I'd really like that asshole who wrote that article for that College Newspaper about Tillman, sit in front of the man's parents and try to tell them he was just some fascist right-wing chauvinist out to kill arabs.

Pat Tillman R.I.P.

Posted by: Dustin Ridgeway on February 25, 2006 at 6:27 PM | PERMALINK

Looks like Eddie Grant's plaque is safe in the archive of a museum called "The Baseball Reliquary":

" About three years ago, Albert received a phone call from a friend who had just moved into a house in Ho-Ho-Kus, New Jersey. The house used to belong to the widow of a retired New York City policeman, whose beat just happened to include the Polo Grounds. Apparently, this was one of the cops who rescued the Eddie Grant plaque from some hoodlums seeking to steal it after the last Giants game in 1957. The plaque, for those unfamiliar with the tale, sat beneath the towering Chesterfield Cigarette sign in the recesses of deep center field. It was a slab of bronze that honored Eddie Grant, the New York Giants shortstop who was killed in action during World War I in the Argonne Forest. The Reliquary negotiated a price for it and shipped it west to add to their archives."
http://www.mudvillemagazine.com/archives/07_2003/

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 6:36 PM | PERMALINK

egbert: You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

No, sweetie, no, I think you mean libel. Slander is an oral utterance, while a defamatory utterance that is is published in some form is considered libel.

You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel, and since you are, in truth, an ignorant and quite stupid moron, I'm afraid you have no case.

By the way, this first bit of legal advice was free, but anything more will cost you.

Posted by: Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINK

You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel, and since you are, in truth, an ignorant and quite stupid moron, I'm afraid you have no case.

It's even funnier than that. egbert's wild threat came after he was accused of resembling a boulder.

Oops, there I go again. Dissolving in giggles...

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 6:43 PM | PERMALINK

"You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel"

Exactly! And this was the main line of denfense in the case of Watergate criminal Howard E. Hunt against Liberty Lobby. The magazine had claimed that Hunt had been involved in the JFK assasination. One of the interesting facts emerging in the hearing of evidence was that Hunt first gave conflicting testimony where he had been on that very special day and letter settled on the claim he had been at home. Bad luck that his family couldn't remember having seen him. He lost.

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

Oh jeez, this thread's been a heckuva way to start the day.

Yes, Leni might no longer be with us, but we still have Terry Gilliam, Jean-Pierre Jeunet, and Hideki Anno. Their brand of cracked-out fantasy is right up the Bush cult's alley.

And an excellent story about Marty, Americanist. He's one of my favorite directors, because he's just so open about how much he loves the movies.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on February 25, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

"the result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

This strikes me as a needless insult to the troops in Afghanistan. Was there some specific screw-up in Tillman's case?
In modern warfare, death by friendly fire does not require an enormous fuckup. The same speed and ferocity of attack that kill the enemy before they can kill many of our troops inevitably kills some of our troops. Rates of death by friendly fire have gone up with each war since WW2 (when it was already something like 5%).
It is a bit like dying from cancer because anti-biotics, hygiene, and better diets protect us from the kinds of plagues and pestilences that killed people younger in the old days.
It is still a tragedy, but I don't think it fair to blame it on his fellow soldiers.

Posted by: kevin on February 25, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and another defense is that it isn't libel but a piece of art. Of course, comedy and satire are art, too. And I guess many here will agree that Casting Director acted in the best tradition of US satirists! ggg

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 6:56 PM | PERMALINK

the result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops.

'Enormous fuckups' happen all the time. Just last night I was reading about the Arab-Israeli Wars. The Iraqis and Jordanians sent units to help Syria's defense in '73, only to occasionally find themselves fighting the same units they came to save. During the invasion of Lebanon, two units fought an engagement for two hours before realizing they were both Israeli. SNAFUs happen even to the best of troops.

Posted by: Dustbin Of History on February 25, 2006 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

"Was there some specific screw-up in Tillman's case?"

Afaik YES. There was a total screwup of communication in violation of army rules.

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

"There was a total screwup of communication in violation of army rules."
Care to specify?

Posted by: scouser on February 25, 2006 at 7:00 PM | PERMALINK

Right...Focus on his enlistment and service. In other words, focus right up to the part when Tillman is killed by his own side in a war he didn't support. That way, it gets a nice pretty happy ending like all the pretty purple finger people in Iraq last year...

---

Posted by: Hank Essay on February 25, 2006 at 7:06 PM | PERMALINK

Grrr, can't you google for yourself? I really hate lazy asses!
I remember three points of failure mentioned in several reports:
1. Tilman's unit split up after a breakdown of a vehicle. But the fact that Tilman's crew stayed at that point wasn't relayed to other units in that area, in violence of army regulations.
2. Another unit came under fire, saw Tilamn on that hill and immediately opened fire, instead of following orders and IDing the enemy first.
3. The army investigation of the incident violated several rules when superiors weighed in.

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 7:07 PM | PERMALINK

Slander ??

Egbert, you're a stunt boulder for chrissake !
You can't sue for slander...

jeezuz man - get a grip...

Posted by: Stuck in Paris on February 25, 2006 at 7:11 PM | PERMALINK

CF: Hee. Whose urgency? I don't negotiate with terrorists. Or tempests. Life's too short for that crap.
Posted by: shortstop

Pretty sure Bob isn't terrorist. Issue re identity of Norman has been sorted out.

Shhh...I'm working on a complex calculation.

How many times would a yellow ribbon Support-Our-Troops magnet bedizened SUV have to circle the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door to equal one coast-to-coast flyover, latte optional, in terms of the contribution to the GHG issue and depletion of the ozone layer?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

"How many times would a yellow ribbon Support-Our-Troops magnet bedizened SUV have to circle the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door to equal one coast-to-coast flyover, latte optional, in terms of the contribution to the GHG issue and depletion of the ozone layer?"

This is a superflous question that ignores the reality. For most americans, this isn't a either - or decision, they go both and care a s*** about the environment. On the other hand, many of them aren't able to walk more then 10 feet without any oxygen mask, sure...

Posted by: Gray on February 25, 2006 at 7:23 PM | PERMALINK

6 and a half billionth baby born, and --it was Jesus!!!

Posted by: cld on February 25, 2006 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, shortstop- you have pics. They will be coming from a hotmail address.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

"6 and a half billionth baby born, and --it was Jesus!!!"

Actually, that is Jesus, Jr. His father, Jesus, Sr., is an auto mechanic in Laredo.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 7:32 PM | PERMALINK

This is a superflous question that ignores the reality. For most americans, this isn't a either - or decision, they go both and care a s*** about the environment. On the other hand, many of them aren't able to walk more then 10 feet without any oxygen mask, sure...
Posted by: Gray

This is a reference to a flyover thingie on another thread I do agree wid ya though, darhlin.

It's Wily running, running, running on thin air...and everything just great as long as he doesn't back down.

I have though arrived at the conclusion that the price of gas would have to reach $600/oz to stop people endlessly circling the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door.

Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 7:44 PM | PERMALINK

"Grrr, can't you google for yourself?"
No, I'd prefer that you, and our illustrious host for that matter, have some support for alleging that Tillman's death was the "result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

But, of course, you don't have it. Clicking the link (yawn, sorry) we see that Tillman's platoon did split up, he moved ahead as part of the first element, and the second element, having been attacked, mistook Tillman and his group for enemy after pulling forward. So, assuming the article is accurate, you're completely wrong on all of your first point and most of the second.

The part about IDing the enemy while under fire cracks me right up. Do the local Taliban militia have a history of immediately ceasing fire and presenting their credentials upon request? Do they walk around with lit sparklers hanging out of their asses, thereby easily distinguished from the good guys? I mean you don't go firing willy-nilly, especially with friendly units in the area, but you try to make a snap under fire decision as to who's a threat from 65 meters away in the late afternoon sunlight. If anything shows the ignorance of the public (and the second guessing press and politicians, while we're at it) towards the difficulty of basic military maneuvers, it's dumbshit statements like that.

Your third statement has nothing to do with the incident. But you've got to ask yourself, why does the Army set out not to learn from an unfortunate incident like this but to trash careers? Who wouldn't engage in some CYA when they saw that coming down the pike?

BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

Posted by: scouser on February 25, 2006 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

CF: Pretty sure Bob isn't terrorist.

Yeah, the (emotional) terrorist joke was ill conceived. I retract that. The rest stands.

MJ: Oooh, photos! I'll check 'em out when I back in tonight. Running out now.

Posted by: shortstop on February 25, 2006 at 8:10 PM | PERMALINK

scouser on February 25, 2006 at 7:48 PM:

have some support for alleging that Tillman's death was the "result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

Alleged, my ass...Unintentionally blowing off one of your fellow soldier's heads contitutes a pretty enormous fuckup. Especially if you are the one getting shot.

but you try to make a snap under fire decision as to who's a threat from 65 meters away in the late afternoon sunlight.

And when you make the wrong decision, it's commonly called a fuckup. When someone gets killed as a result of a wrong decision, it can be considered to be an enormous fuckup. From the article that you were so bored with:

Although the driver of the second groups lead vehicle, according to his testimony, recognized Tillmans group as friendlies and tried to signal others in his vehicle not to shoot, they directed fire toward the Afghan and began shooting wildly, without first identifying their target

Getting hit by friendly fire consitiutes a fuckup.

why does the Army set out not to learn from an unfortunate incident like this but to trash careers?

What's there to learn? You yourself wrote that military maneuvers are difficult...As for 'trashing careers', it's called accountability, a concept that you seem to be unfamiliar with.

BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

So there's no mirror in the scouser house, then...

Posted by: grape_crush on February 25, 2006 at 8:41 PM | PERMALINK

The good thing about movies is that you don't have to go with the Pat Tillman you had, but you can actually go with the Pat Tillman you wish you had.

Posted by: Alf on February 25, 2006 at 8:47 PM | PERMALINK

the actress playing Sean Astin's junkie sister on ``24'' right now would make a good Coulter.
Peter Coyote as Paul Wolfowitz.
Now that I've googled his picture, Christian Bale seems like a good choice for Tillman, but he's gotta be able to play football. I hate it when uncoordinated actors play athletes.

and, I can't help myself: It's ScorSese, not with a ''c.''

Posted by: secularhuman on February 25, 2006 at 8:58 PM | PERMALINK

grape_crush: "Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter."

Apollo 13: "Not bad. But lookie here. And check out her card from a playing deck."
http://www.internetweekly.org/2005/02/cartoon_holy_card_ann_coulter.html

That is a particularly appropriate card for Coulter.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=222

She ripped off the look from St. Dymphna, who is the patron saint of the insane.

Posted by: cowalker on February 25, 2006 at 9:25 PM | PERMALINK

scouser: BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

Then looking in the mirror must be a traumatic experience for you. Oh, but wait. Maybe you don't cast a reflection. But you are a lazy assclown and a shit for boring us [yawn] with your piffle. And without a link! Just mindless ramblings without proof.

Forgive me, my fellow liberals, for the long snippets from WaPo but some fucktards like scouser have to be spoon fed. First hit on Google for "pat tillman death". Here's the printer-friendly link because the WaPo article is five pages long with a journal of the entire account from the documents and sworn testimony that they obtained. Gray's list checks off for 1, 2 and 3, BTW. Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades (washingtonpost.com) [Emphasis added.]:

Dozens of witness statements, e-mails, investigation findings, logbooks, maps and photographs obtained by The Washington Post show that Tillman died unnecessarily after botched communications, a mistaken decision to split his platoon over the objections of its leader, and negligent shooting by pumped-up young Rangers -- some in their first firefight -- who failed to identify their targets as they blasted their way out of a frightening ambush.
The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders.
[...]
The A Company commander, under pressure from his superior to get moving, ordered Uthlaut to split his platoon.
Uthlaut objected. "I would recommend sending our whole platoon up to the highway and then having us go together to the villages," he wrote in an e-mail to the operations center at 5:03 p.m. With sunset approaching, he wrote, even if he split the platoon, the serial that went to Manah would not be able to carry out search operations before dark. And under procedures at the time, he was not supposed to conduct such operations at night.
But why? Uthlaut asked, as he recalled in a sworn statement. Do you want us to change procedures and conduct sweep operations at night?
No, said the A Company commander.
"So the only reason you want me to split up is so I can get boots on the ground in sector before it gets dark?" an incredulous Uthlaut asked, as he recalled.
Yes, said his commander.
Uthlaut tried "one last-ditch effort," pointing out that he had only one heavy .50-caliber machine gun for the entire platoon. Did that change anything? The commander said it did not.
"At that point I figured I had pushed the envelope far enough and accepted the mission," Uthlaut recalled in the statement.
He pulled his men together hastily and briefed them. Twenty-four hours after its detection, the broken Humvee part had brought them to a difficult spot: They had to divide into two groups quickly and get moving across a darkening, hostile landscape.
Serial 1, led by Uthlaut and including Pat Tillman, would move immediately to Manah.
Serial 2, with the local tow truck hauling the Humvee, would follow, but would soon branch off toward a highway to drop off the vehicle.
[...]
Pat Tillman's serial, with Uthlaut in command, soon turned into a steep and narrow canyon, passed through safely and approached Manah as planned.
Behind them, Serial 2 briefly started down a different road, then stopped. The Afghan tow truck driver said he could not navigate the pitted road. He suggested they turn around and follow the same route that Serial 1 had taken. After Serial 2 passed Manah, the group could circle around to the designated highway. Serial 2's leader, the platoon sergeant, agreed.
There was no radio communication between the two serials about this change in plans.
[...]
Rangers are trained to shoot only after they have clearly identified specific targets as enemy forces. Gunners working together are supposed to follow orders from their vehicle's commander -- in this case, Baker. If there is no chance for orderly talk, the gunners are supposed to watch their commander's aim and shoot in the same direction.
[...]
As they pulled alongside the ridge, the gunners poured an undisciplined barrage of hundreds of rounds into the area where Tillman and other members of Serial 1 had taken up positions, Army investigators later concluded. The gunner of the M-2 .50-caliber machine gun in Baker's truck fired every round he had.
The shooters saw only "shapes," a Ranger-appointed investigator wrote, and all of them directed bursts of machine gun fire "without positively identifying the shapes."
[...]
The driver shouted twice: "We have friendlies on top!" Then he screamed "No!" Then he yelled several more times to cease fire, he recalled. "No one heard me."
Up on the ridge, Tillman and Rangers around him began to wave their arms and shout. But they only attracted more fire from Baker's vehicle.
"I saw three to four arms pop up," one of the gunners with Baker recalled. "They did not look like the cease-fire hand-and-arm signal because they were waving side to side." When he and the other gunners spotted the waving arms, their "rate of fire increased."
The young Ranger nearest Tillman on the ridge, whose full name could not be confirmed, saw a Humvee coming down the road. "They made eye contact with us," then began firing, he remembered. Baker's heavily armed vehicle "rolled into our sight and started to unload on top of us. They would work in bursts."
Tillman and nearly a dozen other Rangers on the ridge tried everything they could: They shouted, they waved their arms, and they screamed some more.
"Ranger! Ranger! Cease fire!" one soldier on the ridge remembered shouting.
"But they couldn't hear us," recalled the soldier nearest Tillman. Then Tillman "came up with the idea to let a smoke grenade go." As its thick smoke unfurled, "This stopped the friendly contact for a few moments," the Ranger recalled.
"We thought the battle was over, so we were relieved, getting up and stretching out, and talking with one another."
Suddenly he saw the attacking Humvee move into "a better position to fire on us." He heard a new machine gun burst and hit the ground, praying, as Pat Tillman fell.
A follow-up WaPo article shows how shamefully the incident was handled:
A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.
The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.
They burned his uniform and body armor. That certainly isn't SOP. What a bunch of coverup cowards!
Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.
[...]
"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."
Now for the heartache, the anguish of a grieving family confused by varying accounts in an attempt to coverup the truth about Pat Tillman's death:
Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.
"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."
That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an untrue story to capitalize on his altruism -- just as the Abu Ghraib prison scandal was erupting publicly. She said she was particularly offended when President Bush offered a taped memorial message to Tillman at a Cardinals football game shortly before the presidential election last fall. She again felt as though her son was being used, something he never would have wanted.
"Every day is sort of emotional," Mary Tillman said. "It just keeps slapping me in the face. To find that he was killed in this debacle -- everything that could have gone wrong did -- it's so much harder to take. We should not have been subjected to all of this. This lie was to cover their image. I think there's a lot more yet that we don't even know, or they wouldn't still be covering their tails.
"If this is what happens when someone high profile dies, I can only imagine what happens with everyone else."
You can click the links to read the full account for yourself, you lazy git.

scouser: The part about IDing the enemy while under fire cracks me right up.

Must have cracked you up to the point of being brain dead. Rangers do not shoot until they have IDed the target. Soldiers do not burn uniforms and body armor to coverup fratricide. The military does not deceive families with varying conflicting accounts about a fallen soldier's death.

I'm mocking you, fucktard scouser, for shamefully minimizing a shameful incident with nothing but a shitty attitude. Now that you have been shown to truly be a lazy assclown, guess you will need to change your blog name since I have bookmarked the permalink to trot out next time you show your ignorant ass here.

Smarter monkeys, please!


Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

CFShep: ala theAmericanist, a modern Wall Street story hero story...

Dimitrios Gavriel left a position as Wall Street analyst to avenge the death of friends on 9/11. He died in Iraq on November 19, 2004.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/dimitrios-gavriel.htm

Of course it is doubly tragic that such a heroic person died fighting not for the honorable goal of destroying Al Qaeda, but in Iraq for unknown objectives...

Posted by: kevin on February 25, 2006 at 10:30 PM | PERMALINK

R.I.P.

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 25, 2006 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

Well, grape,
We both picked up on how painful a mirror must be for the fucktard. Great minds, eh?

cowalker,
Afflicted with mental illness explains it. I've wondered if Coulter was bipolar!

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 25, 2006 at 10:48 PM | PERMALINK

apollo 13: kudos for kicking scouser's butt. i was just going to ignore him, but watching him get embarassed is so much better....

i've said many times before, so forgive me apollo 13, but future historians will have a helluva time understanding the extent of the denial of the bush-enablers....

Posted by: howard on February 25, 2006 at 11:05 PM | PERMALINK

Here is "Kevin Drum's Life of Pat Tillman" - coming to a theater near you.

This movie tells the real story of Pat Tillman, exposing him as a soldier duped by GW Bush. He goes to war in Afganistan but becomes disillusioned. Over time, he becomes anti-war and tells his fellow troops to vote for Kerry. He has worries about global warming, and he teaches Afghan villagers the importance of recycling. He has a homosexual affair with another soldier. In the final climactic scene he confesses his new conviction that GW Bush and the Republican party are the root of all evil. Thereafter, he is killed by American troops, angry about their lack of body armor.

Hollywood critics will lavish praise on "Kevin Drum's Life of Pat Tillman." The elites will give awards and honors to the film. But across the country, Americans will stay home.

Posted by: MountainDan on February 25, 2006 at 11:17 PM | PERMALINK

just like everyone is staying home from bareback mountain, MountainDan?

honest to frickin' god, how do these morons learn to type and operate a computer?

Posted by: howard on February 25, 2006 at 11:24 PM | PERMALINK

howard,
No need for forgiveness and thanks. I agree. Historians will have a heyday with the level of utter denial of some people.

Now forgive me, since I have written about this before: World-famous Swiss psychologist and author Alice Miller wrote an amazing account of a similar phenomenon in 1930s Germany, how obedience was nurtured from the cradle into adulthood to create "good Germans." Basically, the "spare the rod, spoil the child" methodology, to not spare the rod, was key. Based on stats and the effects of PTSD from my psychotherapist friends who specialize in field of trauma recovery, I figure about one-third of the population of our living generations bears some sort of unhealed legacy of trauma, e.g., child abuse, whether emotional or physical. That makes for compliant adult children who revere the harsh father.

Some day, a PhD is going to write a book (as well as historians) and maybe during our lifetime that will make sense of it. I just hope it isn't too full of jargon so layman readers can understand the destructive force of humiliation on young egos. Heck, I live in the South. Sadly, beatings are a way of life going back to colonial slavery. Not to mention the Puritanical practice of using pillories and scarlet letters as tools of shame. Makes me almost want to get the degree so I could tackle the task.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 26, 2006 at 12:03 AM | PERMALINK

GO APOLLO! YEAH BABY, YEAH!

...if scouser comes back, it won't be under the same nickname unless he's a masochist who gets off on being humiliated...

howard on February 25, 2006 at 11:24 PM:

honest to frickin' god, how do these morons learn to type and operate a computer?

...something about monkeys and typewriters...

Actually, it would be good for MountainDan to show a little more respect for a dead soldier...Heckuva job supporting the troops there, Dan...

Posted by: grape_crush on February 26, 2006 at 12:25 AM | PERMALINK

My reaction to Tillmans supposed opposition to Bush and the Iraq war is: Why is any of that relevant?

Pat Tillman gave up the idolized existence of being an NFL player and earning millions to be a warrior on the front lines of the war on terrorism in response to a horrific attack on America. He didnt serve because of loyalty or opposition to the President. He served because he felt the call of duty. Thats what a biopic about Pat Tillman would be about. But those on the left cant see that because they view everything through a Bush prism. Everything with you people has to be a referendum on Bush. Why are there no stories of todays heroes? Because that might result in increased support for Bushs war and, even worse, increased support for Bush, and we cant have that. But we can tell a heros story if there is an anti-Bush angle. Well thats just fine. Only todays left, whose one defining belief is opposition to anything Bush supports, could view the Pat Tillman story through a pro- or anti- Bush lens. And that leaves the party of the people unwilling to tell the stories of the people who fight heroically on the front lines of todays war.

The extent to which you have allowed your ideals to be corrupted by your hatred is tragic.

Posted by: BR on February 26, 2006 at 1:10 AM | PERMALINK

I wish Jim Varney was still around to play Chimpy.

Posted by: southsidescottie on February 26, 2006 at 1:51 AM | PERMALINK

"Pat Tillman gave up the idolized existence of being an NFL player and earning millions to be a warrior on the front lines of the war on terrorism in response to a horrific attack on America."

Yes, a horrific attack that the prismatic Bush has used every day, in every way to amass power, line his friend's pockets, and bring about the destruction of hundreds of thousands of lives, all while ruining America's place in an increasingly poisoned world -- perhaps permanently.

Other than that, we're fine with it. Go team!

Posted by: Kenji on February 26, 2006 at 2:01 AM | PERMALINK

Pat Tillman gave up the idolized existence of being an NFL player and earning millions to be a warrior on the front lines of the war on terrorism in response to a horrific attack on America.

And what a tragedy that the Bush administration didn't directly pool all its considerable resources towards that laudable end, but instead soon went on an irrelevant tangent to satisfy a son's need to finish off a father's deed (even though father was wise enough not to go there). That tangent has sent a nation to the precipice of civil war, while making the Middle East even more volatile and enabling al-Qaida and bin Laden to amass even more power among fundamentalist radicals, thus ultimately jeopardizing our security.

Tillman did his duty; Bush failed to do his. End of story.

Posted by: Vincent on February 26, 2006 at 2:51 AM | PERMALINK

My reaction to Tillmans supposed opposition to Bush and the Iraq war is: Why is any of that relevant?
It is relevant because Tillman's death was used by Bush & Co as a public relations prop in support of the Iraq War.

He served because he felt the call of duty. Thats what a biopic about Pat Tillman would be about.
Yes, if this biopic were made as a Republican public relations piece. But if it were made by a filmmaker interested in the story and the hero, Tillman's opinions on the war his death was used to prop up would obviously be judged to be relevant.

Why are there no stories of todays heroes?
It's not because the embedded journalists are leftists, for sure.

BR, what's important here is that when the guy died they (your people) exploited his death for political purposes while lying about the way he died -- even to his family. That's the story. And why would they not tell the truth about this friendly fire immediately? Maybe for the same reasons that they did the same with the Cheney/Whittington friendly fire? Maybe they first wanted to see if the story could be massaged to a more politically convenient form?

Posted by: JS on February 26, 2006 at 3:54 AM | PERMALINK

Jeso Pete! Another one.

BR: My reaction to Tillmans supposed opposition to Bush and the Iraq war is: Why is any of that relevant?

The unabridged truth has relevancy. To be true to Pat. To honor who he was.

More BR: Pat Tillman gave up the idolized existence of being an NFL player and earning millions to be a warrior on the front lines of the war on terrorism in response to a horrific attack on America. He didnt serve because of loyalty or opposition to the President. He served because he felt the call of duty.

You could have ended right there and your post would have been honest. But no. You couldn't pass up the opportunity to bash liberals and lecture us on corrupt ideals! You. Are. Clueless!

More BR (more like BS): Thats what a biopic about Pat Tillman would be about.

What you suggest would be a "myopic" instead of a biopic, an edited version that would censor the politics of a soldier and a life lived at a time of war that involved politics to go to war. Pat's tragic death was politicized to enhance the Administration's image. The truth about friendly fire was hushed, because why? Presidential politics without regard for the family. I am sure the Tillman family would have something to say about a Pat Tillman movie and more than your suggested incomplete version. See my post at 10:27 PM for the family's thought about Pat's tour of duty since you seem to reject Kevin's cite. Click the links and do some Googling for the Tillman family POV. The family's wishes are relevant to the Pat Tillman story. Sorry, you don't get to make that call.

Spittle from BR: But those on the left cant see that because they view everything through a Bush prism. Everything with you people has to be a referendum on Bush.

If you can't see the precarious situation we as a nation are in, how this presidency has brought us to the brink, then you can't be reached. To refrain a quote that unfortunately needs to be recycled here for Repubs who forget the words of a Repub president, Teddy Roosevelt: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to standby the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

More BR (BS): Why are there no stories of todays heroes?

No stories? You're wrong. You exaggerate for some reason. I wonder why that is. Maybe so you can wag your finger here self-righteously having conveniently filtered out hero stories.

I see hero stories all the time. Why don't you? Saw one Friday in fact on CNN. Lou Dobbs regularly airs a segment called, Heroes.

Another hero who comes to mind just recently aired on one of the three networks (PrimeTime, 20/20, CBS 60Minutes, or another one of those TV news magazine shows but I don't recall exactly which now) was on a female soldier whose legs were blown off in Iraq. Now with prosthetic legs and an American flag decal on one of them, she helps other amputee vets coming back from the war, boosting their morale and teaching them how to walk on their new high-tech legs. Her sense of duty and honor was inspiring. Kinda like Max Cleland who was painted a traitor shamefully by the Chambliss campaign in Georgia. You aren't looking or noticing heroes and I'm curious why that is. Maybe you're corrupted.

The spittle rises: Because that might result in increased support for Bushs war and, even worse, increased support for Bush, and we cant have that. But we can tell a heros story if there is an anti-Bush angle. Well thats just fine.

No worries there...Bush can evoke opposition to the Iraq War all by his lonesome without Dems lifting a finger. In fact, Bush's first eye-opening critic was a Repub. Now, with how Bush, not Dems, have conducted the war, a majority of us Americans on the Left and Right together disapprove of him.

However, let me tell you about other hero stories that you can't see because of your denial, Repub heroes, who dared to speak out against a WH that retaliates vindictively -- Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame. Are you aware that Joe and Valerie have received death threats from al Qaeda since the WH outed Plame's identity? Other CIA heroes include Larry Johnson and Melissa Mahle. Or Russell Tice and Mike German [Cite].

Also heroic soldiers who spoke up to uncover the abuses of Abu Ghraib. Or Anthony Shaffer of Able Danger fame whose career ended when he told the truth.

Or the bravery of whistleblower Bunnatine Greenhouse, "a high-level Pentagon official demoted after she publicly criticized the Pentagon's decision to give Halliburton no-bid contracts in Iraq worth billions of dollars." Or Sibel Edmonds, who blew the whistle on the incompetence of the FBI, on "hundreds, if not thousands, of foreign language documents that the FBI neglected to translate before and after the Sept. 11 attacks."

And you don't see heroes, people who truly believe in protecting and serving we, the people?! You must be blind. Bush blinders, I reckon.

The spittle nearly reaches the breakpoint: Only todays left, whose one defining belief is opposition to anything Bush supports, could view the Pat Tillman story through a pro- or anti- Bush lens. And that leaves the party of the people unwilling to tell the stories of the people who fight heroically on the front lines of todays war.

No, liberals' one defining belief isn't opposition to Bush though now is a critical time to minimize what damage he's done and could do yet. Liberal beliefs are encoded in programs, to name a few: Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, a push for a living wage, universal health care, and gracious plenty of legislative initiatives proposed for better port security. Plus many, many more . Go educate yourself. Please!

What's wrong with you that you can't fathom that Pat Tillman was a liberal thinker? A soldier who opposed Bush and supported Kerry? That's the truth. And why do you advocate not telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

Spittle breaches the levy: The extent to which you have allowed your ideals to be corrupted by your hatred is tragic.

Hatred? Corrupted? You are doing the hateful talking here, clueless hypocrite! Or is hypocrisy your moral value; to speak without evidence, to bear false witness against your fellow Americans? Look at whose ideals have been broken: a compassionate conservative sanctions torture. Small government has been eclipsed by the biggest budget-busting deficit in U.S. history. National security is a pawn in a gotcha game of politics that trashed a CIA operative's identity...And what of the Dubai port deal?

Find the quote on this blog that states, "I hate Bush" or "I hate Republicans." The "hate" word is used most often by liberal bashers like scouser at 7:48 PM. Or Rush Limbaugh who spews hate for liberals and Muslims and "feminazis."

Your accusation says more about you than anyone. To paraphrase, it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles a man.

LOL! As the saying goes, "Physician, heal thyself." Take a good look in the mirror and remove the beam from your eye. I guess you missed the lesson about the Golden Rule.

Boggles the mind! The level of denial and the disowned crapola people project onto others.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 26, 2006 at 4:52 AM | PERMALINK

And few more names, BR (BS), that reflect today's corrupt ideals in politics: Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed, Tom DeLay, Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, Duke Cunningham, John Hannah, David Wurmser, Larry Franklin, and David Safavian.

What a GOP mess!

Posted by: Apollo 13 on February 26, 2006 at 5:18 AM | PERMALINK

One last, late comment to the clueless idiots MountainDan and BR.

Kevin Drum's original article was in response to calls by a someone at NRO to make more movies about the heroism of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq who specifically mentioned Pat Tillman as an example.

The details Kevin excerpted from the San Francisco Chronicle article, all of which have been public knowledge for a couple years now, do nothing to detract from the Pat Tillman's honorable service, but don't reflect particularly well on the administration or the Army brass.

Kevin implies skepticism that Warren Bell really wanted to tell the whole story warts and all. Given the history of the NRO and other administration supporter's recent history of being highly selective of the facts the acknowledge, this seems entirely reasonable.

For you to suggest that liberals are bringing up Pat Tillman's story and doing so only because it provides a chance to attack Bush is as hilarious as it is disgusting.

Posted by: tanj on February 26, 2006 at 7:35 AM | PERMALINK

A good hero is honest. A good hero takes responsibility for his/her actions. A good hero is willing and able to face physical danger for the cause he believes in. A good hero thinks for his/herself and is willing to question conventional wisdom and authority. A good hero cares as much for the larger community as he does for himself.

Pat Tillman aced all these, while GWB (and his boss Cheney) flunked them.

So reality has an anti-Bush bias and for this liberals are to blame...

Posted by: obscure on February 26, 2006 at 8:19 AM | PERMALINK

Apollo13, thx for posting this relevant info. I have to admit I had a slightly different picture in mind, but at least I got the main points right! Scouser, I know that such screwups happen, especially during wartimes, but they should be thoroughly investigated, not covered up just for sparing the army and its officers an embarrassment. By covering up you prevent the troops from learning an important lesson.

Posted by: Gray on February 26, 2006 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

A lesson folks are forgetting, from a pretty good war movie: The Caine Mutiny. It has one of the great comeuppance scenes of all time, after the defense attorney gets Humphrey Bogart to fall apart on the stand. Remember the little party after, where the attorney shows up drunk to tell them all off?

If memory serves, part of his speech is that you don't obey a captain's orders, you don't respect him because you LIKE him, or his politics, or anything else about him: you respect the captain because he has the job "or you're no good."

We're a NATION. The men and women who die defending us are OUR heroes. More than progressives (if only because they have more power at the moment), conservatives ought to be feel shame these days for politicizing the sacrifices of a Pat Tillman, for disrespecting the genuine heroism of a long list of folks for political purposes -- Tillman, Kerry, Cleland, McCain, etc.


Posted by: theAmericanist on February 26, 2006 at 9:28 AM | PERMALINK

Hell hath no smug foulmouthed scatterbrained fury like Apollo questioned. This is all a return to being the morally sure save the world freshperson activist that never leaves the quad, isn't it? But even easier now since you don't have to go outside to jump up and down and scream at the converted in total committment to, like, The Cause.

The sole focus of my comment was Kevin's accusation that Tillman's death was the "result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops." Kevin has made a pretty serious accusation and you better have solid proof before making the assertion. Anyone half familiar with military maneuvers recognizes the chaos described in Kevin's link (BTW the yawn in my comment was due to the number of commenters that never seem to click the link) and what few relevant excerpts you manage to fit into your rant. It's easy to sit back days, months, and years later reading documents playing the armchair rifleman, and stating without doubt what you would have done at the bottom of that canyon. So should Tillman's element not have tried to suppress the ambush by firing over the Ranger occupied canyon? Should they have waited until perfect communications were established with the trailing element but until then allowed the ambush to proceed unchallenged? We all know what the rulebook says, and I pretty clearly stated you don't go firing willy-nilly with friendly units in the area, but how much identification would you demand before letting your platoon (consisting of, with any justice, investigators and Steve Coll) start 'blasting their way out of a frightening ambush'? What about control of the green troops? And, just like the movies, people yelling directions can be clearly heard over half a platoon's worth of firing weapons, right?

Fratricide is a fairly common and unfortunate part of every war up to the present day. Dustbin and commenter Kevin above both cite to its prevalence and entire friendly units fighting each other. And maybe there were errors on the ground leading to Tillman's death that warrant the use of the terms fuck up or negligent. But all I see is alot of assumptions and second guessing by people that weren't there, don't know the issue, and couldn't find the business end of a rifle in any event.
And spare us all the disgusting overfamiliarization of "be[ing] true to Pat. To honor who he was." The only reason you're interested in Tillman is because you see the opportunity to spin his death in advancement of your political agenda. If that were the same Spec. Pat Tillman that died that day, but straight out high school in Ottumwa, Iowa, you wouldn't think twice about him.
To paraphrase David Hackworth 'the last thing an infantryman can do is intrude up the ruminations of the nonfighting elite of the American public.' But flame away. It's what you're best at.

Posted by: scouser on February 26, 2006 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Gray - agree 100% with your cover up comments as I alluded to at the end of my original post. Problem is that the Army, like any bureaucracy, looks to avoid political and public black eyes. All but guarantee that the investigation started with trying to pin blame on someone for a high profile death, not to garner any lessons learned.

Posted by: scouser on February 26, 2006 at 9:39 AM | PERMALINK

""Scouser, I know that such screwups happen, especially during wartimes,"

I know this sounds like some outta Joe Heller but assure you it isn't.

One of my personal favorites, related to me by the MI guy on the base at the base, concerns a hapless VC sapper who infiltrated the installation. His objective was the arms dump. Instead he ended up giving his life to blow up a QM stores warehouse.

He blew up the entire stock of tomato juice and orange juice for the whole of SVN.

Geoff said it wreaked minor havoc on morale for a couple of weeks as nobody could get a Bloody Mary or Screwdriver at any O Club in the entire theater for several weeks.

Milo doesn't seem to have been implicated.

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

Lara Flyn Boyle for Ann Coulter. She looks as under nourished as the Coulter.But somebody else will have to dub her voice to make it more manly.

Posted by: Kool on February 26, 2006 at 9:46 AM | PERMALINK

"Geoff said it wreaked minor havoc on morale for a couple of weeks as nobody could get a Bloody Mary or Screwdriver at any O Club in the entire theater for several weeks."

Well, hell, that would be enough to make me want to go home too.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 26, 2006 at 9:48 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, yeah -- not to be misunderstood (though I thought the Eisenhower anecdote upthread was pretty clear): the responsibility that a grunt, or a captain, owes up the chain of command is exponentially heavier going down.

So Tillman thought Iraq was a bad idea. So he signed up to fight al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, and Bush sent him to Iraq. He's the Commander in Chief, he coulda sent Tillman to fight and die in Syria, or Sudan, or fucking Belfast -- it's not the soldier's job to choose where, or even why he fights.

But, sweet Jesus, that just makes the megaton responsibility of the President surgically sharp:HE's the one who chooses where, and why, Americans fight and die.

There's a literary image, I forget where it's from, of a writer who dies and when he gets to the Pearly Gates, there is this huge herd of animals: mostly chickens, thousands of 'em, a few dozen turkeys and ducks and a goose or two, and a hundred or so cows, with a few deer and one enormous moose. The writer just stands there, with (he discovers) his books and essays in his hands. He doesn't know what's going on, but he can't get into heaven unless the crowd of animals moves aside. Finally, the moose speaks up:

"We are your life. You've eaten us all. We had to die so you could produce those little black marks on those papers. Prove to us it was worth it."

I wonder what Bush will have to say to Tillman, and all the others. (Those of you who know my writing, know I want us to WIN in Iraq, too.)

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 26, 2006 at 9:52 AM | PERMALINK

Zactly so.

Well, hell, that would be enough to make me want to go home too.
Posted by: MJ Memphis

I begged this guy, a very neurotic NY attorney these days, to write up his experiences. I could easily do a screenplay from Geoff's stories.

Just the one about the one and only time he actually came under fire is enough to leaving one reeling.

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, I can top that: A friend of mine was in the Marines in WW2, a correspondent for Stars and Stripes based in Guam. (They'd be deployed from there to battles, and come back to file stories.) Because they all had cameras, they could trade with sailors on the ships that would stop there. The sailors wanted photographs.

The Marines wanted beer.

So after a year or so, the Marine correspondents had this Quonset hut full of those old-fashioned tin cans of beer: sturdy things. But Guam is HOT, and there was no air conditioning of course... so, my friend told me, there was one Marine correspondent who proudly got a Purple Heart because he happened to be IN the hut when several dozen superheated cans of Government Issue beer exploded...

And he was wounded by the shrapnel.

Posted by: theAmericanist on February 26, 2006 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

And he was wounded by the shrapnel.
Posted by: theAmericanist

I knew a former Navy medic, let's call him 'Jack", who was trading for....well...let's say a certain contraband smokable local product in a warehouse somewhere incountry when the base came under mortar attack.

Just as in the case of your friend, Jack was awarded a purple heart and when I last saw him some 20 years ago, said he had a continuing inability to sleep on his back.

He said that it was only the fact that they were crouched down behind some bales of cardboard...er...sampling the product which saved his life.

>>>grin.

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

Left out 'Jack's' moral of the story:

"Nobody, and I mean nobody, can tell me there's no benefit to smokin' marijuana."

Ne plus change and so forth...

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 10:50 AM | PERMALINK

Can hardly wait for "Thirty Seconds over Pecos"

"as Mig-17s approach from Juarez, a hardened
steely eyed Lt "Ripper" Bush tells his wing
man, "Get above them, dive out of the sun"

In the deleted scenes, the wing man said,
"But we're in 102s, not P-40s, George"

Posted by: stupid git on February 26, 2006 at 11:01 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, git, somebody had to protect us Oklahoma...

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 11:07 AM | PERMALINK

insert 'from'

Thanks.

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 11:09 AM | PERMALINK

Correction to above - that should have been Lt "Ripped" Bush

Posted by: stupid git on February 26, 2006 at 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

Ripped, Ripper....both apply. Ne plus ca change, indeed.

Good morning. I would like to announce that MJ Memphis' fiancee is drop-dead gorgeous. That is all.

Posted by: shortstop on February 26, 2006 at 12:01 PM | PERMALINK

Just to point out, if Warren Bell wants more movies to be made about "the heroism of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq" maybe he should get off his lazy butt and produce and distribute them. I'm always amused at these lazy right wingers lecturing others about what they (the others) should do, when they (the lazy right wingers) aren't willing to do it themselves.

They (the lazy right wingers) should either put up or shut up.

Posted by: raj on February 26, 2006 at 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

Good morning. I would like to announce that MJ Memphis' fiancee is drop-dead gorgeous. That is all.
Posted by: shortstop

Does that mean she's....er...a Memphis Belle?

Posted by: CFShep on February 26, 2006 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop- thanks, I tell her that too, but she doesn't believe me.

CFShep- nope, she's a Bangkok Belle. :)

Posted by: MJ Memphis on February 26, 2006 at 1:47 PM | PERMALINK

How can anyone libel someone who is anonymous? Even in the case of an absolutely vicious lie, what would the damage be? An anonymous person by definition has no reputation to be damaged.

If you want to file a libel suit, post using your own name.

(And please remember: anonymous, annoying posts ARE unlawful these days.)

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on February 26, 2006 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

This is my open letter to Bell:

"why, I wonder, are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I ... would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

Because the Tillman case alone is sufficient to demonstrate that your publication is a source of "one-sided propaganda." On several occasions, NR repeated the fictional account of Tillman's death (examples here and here). As far as I can tell, NR has never corrected those articles, and has never printed the true account of his death.

Also, as far as I know, you and your publication have still said nothing to condemn the government for lying about Tillman's death. In fact, your original comment on Tillman, a couple of days ago, tends to create the impression that you didn't even know that the official story about Tillman is a fabrication.

Therefore it's obvious why you are seen as a source of "one-sided propaganda." Therefore it's hard to understand why you expect to be seen as someone who is interested in promoting a true account of his story.

"I have no idea if, as some news accounts suggest, he was anti-Bush or against the Iraq War."

There is a named eyewitness, a soldier (Spc. Russell Baer), quoting Tillman as stating the war is "illegal." Yet in the face of this evidence, you still claim "I have no idea ... ." This denial on your part is another indication that you shouldn't expect to be seen as someone who is interested in promoting a true account of his story.

Posted by: jukeboxgrad on February 26, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

Just to point out, if Warren Bell wants more movies to be made about "the heroism of American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq" maybe he should get off his lazy butt and produce and distribute them. I'm always amused at these lazy right wingers lecturing others about what they (the others) should do, when they (the lazy right wingers) aren't willing to do it themselves.

As I pointed out above, these are the same people who, in the next breath, will write an essay in praise of entrepreneurship and taking initiative.

Posted by: Stefan on February 26, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

How can anyone libel someone who is anonymous? Even in the case of an absolutely vicious lie, what would the damage be?

It hurts right in the alias.

Posted by: frankly0 on February 26, 2006 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINK

Pat Tillman was killed in a fragging incident. The Pentagon's Office of Special Plans could not have produced enough pro-Bush propaganda to overcome the revelation that not only was Pat Tillman against the Iraq war, he was also against George Bush.

They had to silence him before he got back and met with Noam Chompsky. He was killed by a three-shot cluster to the forehead after having been hit repeatedly prior to the killing shots. His body armor and uniform were summarily burned and his journals went missing.

Pat Tillman was another victim of the administration that creates its own reality.

Posted by: malcolmjames on February 26, 2006 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINK

malcolmjames:

Chillingly plausible.

Posted by: hob goblin on February 26, 2006 at 7:17 PM | PERMALINK

someone wrote: "Michael Gambon as Don Rumsfeld"

"Rolling on the floor"
Posted by: CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 3:18 PM | PERMALINK


And, Condoleeza Rice as "The First Lady"?
Nah, too obvious.

Posted by: MarkH on February 26, 2006 at 8:33 PM | PERMALINK

He was an atheist too, you forgot to mention that.

Posted by: Jonesy on February 26, 2006 at 9:06 PM | PERMALINK

Obviously, the real Pat Tillman story is THE REASON why his life hasn't been made into a biopic yet. It would be too obviously liberal a story, and would provoke a boycotting frenzy on the part of self-appointed "patriots".

Posted by: brooksfoe on February 26, 2006 at 10:36 PM | PERMALINK

CFShep- nope, she's a Bangkok Belle. :)
Posted by: MJ Memphis

I have to become a trifle more scrupluous of my punctuation.

I meant to type: Memphis' Belle.

>grinning

Posted by: CFShep on February 27, 2006 at 8:44 AM | PERMALINK

>every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?"

Because Abramoff is too busy turning state's evidence.

Posted by: bartkid on February 27, 2006 at 9:08 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.cb-demopolis.com/sex-story.html - sex story http://www.cb-demopolis.com/sex-story.html
http://www.it-phytz.com/babes.html - babes http://www.it-phytz.com/babes.html
http://www.it-phytz.com/lesbian-sex.html - lesbian sex http://www.it-phytz.com/lesbian-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/pantyhose-sex.html - pantyhose sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/pantyhose-sex.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/pantyhose-sex.html - pantyhose sex http://www.cb-demopolis.com/pantyhose-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/uniforms-sex.html - uniforms sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/uniforms-sex.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/hardcore.html - hardcore http://www.cb-demopolis.com/hardcore.html
http://www.it-phytz.com/toons.html - toons http://www.it-phytz.com/toons.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/gays-sex.html - gays sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/gays-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/uniforms-sex.html - uniforms sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/uniforms-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/anal-sex.html - anal sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/anal-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/big-cock.html - big cock http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/big-cock.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/dildo.html - dildo http://www.cb-demopolis.com/dildo.html
http://www.it-phytz.com/amateur-sex.html - amateur sex http://www.it-phytz.com/amateur-sex.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/femdom-sex.html - femdom sex http://www.cb-demopolis.com/femdom-sex.html
http://www.it-phytz.com/lesbian-sex.html - lesbian sex http://www.it-phytz.com/lesbian-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/cumshot-sex.html - cumshot sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/cumshot-sex.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/cams.html - cams http://www.cb-demopolis.com/cams.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/cumshot-sex.html - cumshot sex http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/cumshot-sex.html
http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/sex-toys.html - sex toys http://www.commonwealthconnect.com/sex-toys.html
http://www.cb-demopolis.com/Celebrities.html - Celebrities http://www.cb-demopolis.com/Celebrities.html
CVzXnGAtfrWxydODK

Posted by: fIQyCHJkob on February 28, 2006 at 8:42 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

Read Jonathan Rowe remembrance and articles
Email Newsletter icon, E-mail Newsletter icon, Email List icon, E-mail List icon Sign up for Free News & Updates

Advertise in WM



buy from Amazon and
support the Monthly