wow.

My first take is: you're making this up.

You can't buy stuff like this. They hand it to you on a platter.

i look forward to the scene at tillman's funeral where pat's brother thanks them for their prayers, but points out that pat was an atheist.

benjoya. woo-hoo, sug!

I'm still wondering what will become of me the next time I'm deposed and I offer "So help me Sam L. Clemens" as an alternate.

eeek

I think the story Kevin described would make a great movie.

“an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror.” - I didn't realize that all the "heroes" in "The War On Terror" were footbal players.

But the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

And isn't all that matters that we Republicans feel good?

Christian Bale as Pat Tillman
Chris Cooper as George W Bush
Richard Dreyfuss as Dick Cheney
Philip Seymour Hoffman as Karl Rove
Stephen Root as Scott McClellan
Michael Gambon as Don Rumsfeld

I did a piece about Tillman for (of all places) the NY Sun, comparing him to a nearly forgotten fallen hero of the First World War, Eddie Grant.

If somebody wants to make a movie about Tillman (email me!), the thing to do is to make it about HIM, not about anybody's political agenda -- including his, frankly. He was a person, who had a life; tell the story truthfully and let people draw their own conclusions.

I'd give Bell this much: he seems to understand that what was heroic about Tillman is nothing like what Bush has claimed about the war. Unlike a lot of folks making life and death decisions for guys like him, Tillman not only showed up, he volunteered.

That's a heavy burden on those responsible.

["Harvard Eddie" Grant was a lawyer who played major league baseball about a hundred years ago -- decent ballplayer, but not great. Was teammates with Christy Matthewson, though. John McGraw cut Grant in 1915, sentencing him to become rich on Wall Street instead of playing baseball for rent money in the Polo Grounds. Then America joined the war, and Grant -- like Matthewson -- volunteered to fight. Matthewson actually had to personally insist to President Wilson before he was allowed join the Chemical Weapons Division: in 1916, that was like volunteering to hit nukes with a hammer. Captain Grant was killed leading a suicide mission in 1918 to save the Lost Battalion, led by a fellow Wall Street lawyer. When he was already dying himself, partly from an accident training with poison gas, Matthewson made the Giants put up a monument to Eddie Grant right on the Polo Grounds' centerfield -- in the photo of the famous Willie Mays' catch of Vic Werz's line drive in the 1950s, you can see the Grant monument. It somehow vanished when the old ballpark was torn down -- and like Tillman will be one day, Harvard Eddie is forgotten: sic transit gloria mundi.)

But the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

And isn't all that matters that we Republicans feel good?
Posted by: Freedom Phukher

Bet you guys can get the same screenwriter who did "Red Scorpion". I suspect he works cheap.

>>Michael Gambon as Don Rumsfeld

Rolling on the floor

Does the article really quote from anonymous sources?

That is suspect.

"An anonymous source said Pat Tillman was a Kerry supporter, and repeatedly told soldiers the war was all about oil."

Enough already with the anonymous sources, OK?

Cool story, Americanist.

Really.

But can you imagine any situation today where a Wall Street lawyer (or a Wall Street anything) would risk anything more life threatening than a paper cut in defense of anything more pressing than a tax loophole?

KEVIN DRUM: Sounds like an Oliver Stone picture to me. Informed about all this, Bell says defensively that he never asked for "a whitewash of history" and would of course be fine with a movie that told the whole story, warts and all. "Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

They SHOULD make THAT movie about Pat.

Its totally instructive of the right and wrong of the last five years.

A fully justified action in Afghanistan with quite a bit of heroism and grit involved with 9/11 as the backdrop, followed by...

The complete and utter bastardization of a worthy fight derailed by a greedy and corrupt leadership that exploits the cause and misdirects us to Iraq. The karmic tragedy ending with Pat's death in a mishap and the US enmired in quicksand in Iraq.

Its a story that tells us what is right about our instincts in the fight against terror, and what is wrong with the government that should be leading us in the right direction.

Make that film!

Kevin Drum wrote:

Sounds like an Oliver Stone picture to me.

Nah, Stone's toast...Clooney's my pick for director...Casting Director pretty much nailed the actors, but I'd try out Sam Rockwell in age makeup for Dubya as well as Robert Vaughn for Rummy.

CFShep, Michael Gambon is the only actor that came to mind that could convey that arrogant creepiness that Rummy is so famous for.

Maybe Gene Hackman might work as well. Albert Finney?

Ooo, Robert Vaughn as Rummy!!!

You're hired, grape!

I like the my favorite conservative blogger, the Cunning Realist's take on this from last year:

The extent of the disgrace defies belief: the initial coverup of the way Tillman died, the harvesting of that death for political expedience as the Abu Ghraib story broke, the predictable promotions of those arguably responsible for what happened on the ground that day, the changing of crucial testimony, the destruction of physical evidence, and the willful, flat-out lies our political and military leadership told to Tillman's family and the American public.

Interesting to see more coming out about Pat Tillman. Ted Rall just did a cartoon about the fakery involved in the Tod Beamer, flight-93 hero myth. Flight 93 must have been shot down if the wreckage is scattered over miles.

Dick and Harry's Awful Adventure

Featuring:
Aerosmith
Led Zeppelin
Pat Benatar
Bon Jovi
Johnny Cash
Frank Sinatra
The Fugees & DJ Hype

But can you imagine any situation today where a Wall Street lawyer (or a Wall Street anything) would risk anything more life threatening than a paper cut in defense of anything more pressing than a tax loophole?

Hey, where'd this random swipe at me come from? ;-)

And don't mock paper cuts. I nearly bled out from several deep ones I endured during an all-night drafting session...

Well, on second thought, now that I've seen grape_crush's post, yeah, Clooney is a better idea.

No, no, Jon Voight (the actor, not the dentist) as Rumsfeld. Voight already did a quite convincing faux-MacNamara in "Enemy of the State," and Rumsfeld is really nothing more than a warmed-over MacNamara.

Yeah, I haven't really read anything about Tillman, but my brother told me all this stuff about him-- Tillman sounds like a cool cat + the real deal. It's too bad, what happened to him. RIP

every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?" There's loads of money on the right for propaganda; nothing is keeping rightwingers from funding indie films accompanied by expensive advertising campaigns. indeed, nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

admittedly, makingn a good movie is hard work. bitching at hollywood is undoubtedly more fun.

Casting Director on February 25, 2006 at 3:33 PM:

You're hired, grape!

Sweet. When do I get to sleep with the starlets?

....

Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?

howard: every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?" There's loads of money on the right for propaganda; nothing is keeping rightwingers from funding indie films accompanied by expensive advertising campaigns. indeed, nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

Great point, and even more ironic since these whines usually come one paragraph below paeans to the free market and the virtues of entrepreneurship. To make a movie you simply need a script and some money -- yeah, yeah, it's a lot more complicated than that in the specifics but in the abstract that's all you need. Considering the vast amounts of money the right-wing spends to catapult the propaganda by buying off journalists and planting fake stories in newspapers and on TV, I'm a little suprised that their not just simply not making their own movies.

Then again, these movies would then have to be subjected to the relatively impartial test that people would actually want to see them, so I suppose there's that....

Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?

I'd say David Spade, if he was taller and a little more masculine.

"Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?"

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.

Thinking it over (again), I suppose the theme of it is what heroism actually means.

My Dad flew with Ted Williams during WW2, and he explained to me that the thing about a guy like Williams, which I suspect is similar to Tillman's motivation, is that he was quite simply the best at whatever he did, and he CHOSE to do . The skills involved in being a fighter pilot aren't all that different from a .400 hitter (hand eye coordination, ferocity, arrogance), and being a Ranger isn't unlike being in the NFL.

I remember Sports Illustrated did a piece around 1990 or so about Rangers, that started with the debate over which sport really does produce the best athletes -- basketball players are tall, football players large, marathon runners have endurance, etc. The decathlon and pentathlon are supposed to produce well-rounded athletes, people who can run and jump and even shoot -- so the SI guy went and looked at what Rangers do: humping heavy equipment across unfamiliar, rugged terrain, very high tech demands, and absolutely lethal skills.

Might not be a bad place to start a Tillman biopic.

Both Williams (plus millions of others) and Tillman volunteered, of course, after America was attacked: but Tillman's life can't be the thoughtless propaganda that Bell expects.

A good story has a contradiction and resolution in it: I think for Tillman, it's how his own opinion while in uniform and in harm's way of the Iraq war (very American of him, don't ya think?) and the attempt to cover up that he was killed by friendly fire doesn't detract in the slightest from the heroic nature of his sacrifice.

Hell, that might be the way to communicate without preaching, just by telling the truth of his story: I remember how awed I was when I learned about Stephen Ambrose interviewing Eisenhower on Omaha beach in 1965. Ambrose asked Ike what he thought about, looking back at unconditional victory over undeniable evil. Ambrose didn't expect Ike to say that he thought of all those young men who never got to be fathers, of the grandchildren that would never be born, and he wondered if it was all really worth it -- and if future leaders would start wars, if they really knew the cost.

So -- a working title for a Tillman biopic: "Way To Lead."

Ah, the liberal, politically correct white-washing of Pat Tillman.

Pat Tillman was a true patriot and American hero. Something you lefties apparently can't fathom.

grape_crush: Nah, Stone's toast...Clooney's my pick for director..

Careful, grape -- you know that if you say George Clooney's name three times in succession that rdw will appear in a cloud of fire and brimstone.

eggbert, so what part does Pat Tillman's family play in this white washing conspiracy?

I have a roll for you too, egbert, in the upcoming film bio of Tillman's life. You can play the stunt boulder on a mountain during the scene in the mountains of Afghanistan. You can just sit there and stay in character for the duration of the shoot.
When the scene calls for it, the boulder gets accidentally blown up and falls off the mountain way way way down.

I think you'd be perfect for the part, egbert! Just think, you can brag to all your friends, real or imaginary, that you got your big break in pictures!!!

And don't mock paper cuts. I nearly bled out from several deep ones I endured during an all-night drafting session...
Posted by: Stefan

I luv ya sweets.

May I kiss it and make it better?

>mwah

Once upon a time I was a specialist in Fiduciary Income Taxation so I can empathize.

But what I really want to know is whether they will write in a part for that little Jessica girl?
Fighting unto death with her jammed gun? Her.

Way to go,
WashPo.

" every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?"

Oh, I can't resist: gee, it must be 20 years ago now that the WSJ did yet another editorial
kvetching that Hollywood hates religion, capitalism, and America, and cited as an
example Martin Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ. This produced one of the
finest letters to the editor I've ever read, and it bugs me to this day that I didn't keep a copy.

If memory serves, the editorial said that Scorcese was just an apparatchik in this Hollywood crusade against decency, or something to that effect, cranking out a film like TLToC as just the latest instance of Hollywood's party line.

So Scorcese read this over coffee one morning, called up the Journal, and asked to speak to the writer who wrote the editorial, who of course hadn't called HIM before writing it. After bouncing around a bit (right wingers aren't any more used to folks challenging their self-serving myths than any other herd of ideologues), Scorcese got to talk to the guy, who turned out to be a 25 year old graduate of Dartmouth, I think it was.

Scorcese asked him what he'd done before he got the job writing editorials for the Journal; the kid explained that he'd had an internship at the Heritage Foundation or some such place.

So Scorcese wrote this in his letter, and pointed out: 'every few years, I make a movie. That means I raise about $25 million in venture capital from scratch, with 100% risk for the investors. A film loses money, the investors get nothing. 'All
my films make money', he wrote in his letter. 'While I'm filming, I employ hundreds of highly skilled professionals, all of them independent, and each of whom I recruit in a very competitive market.

'I've made', he said whatever it was, '20 films or so, which perhaps would be easier for your editorialists to understand if you thought of it as 20 straight successful entrepreneurial start up businesses -- which is 20 more than your editorial writer.'

Finally, he noted: 'I'm a religious guy. Unlike your editorial writer, I AM a capitalist
-- he got his job as a reward for following an ideological line. He's never made money for an investor or met a payroll in his life -- and he didn't call me before he accused me', Scorcese said, 'of believing precisely the opposite of what I've actually done.'

'Which one of us is the apparatchik?'

(apologies to Martin Scorcese if I've misremembered your letter: I DID ask Capra for it once, and you didn't have it, either)

I rarely laugh at the stupid shit that political commentators (on either side) write to disavow their partisanship. But Warren Bell's quote made me snort and wonder if he's just deluded or intentionally being mendacious.

Speaking seriously for a second, my brother, who works in Hollywood, tells me that there are several potential Tillman treatments and scripts that he's seen. (Of course, there are always millions of treatments and scripts on every subject working their way around, and 99% never get made, but at least there's a slim chance).

Egbert, I agree that Tilmann was a patriot and a hero in the best sense of those terms. The true story of what he believed and how he died does not change that.

It is just that the truth does not reflect particularly well on the administration, and the way the army and the administration lied to exploit his death should be a major embarassment to both.

Casting Director: You can play the stunt boulder on a mountain during the scene in the mountains of Afghanistan. You can just sit there and stay in character for the duration of the shoot.

ROTFLMAO! Oh, that was good! Tears in eyes...LOL!

Now that is truly a great one.

>>>cutting and pasting to Notebook. (with attribution - such as it is)

Props to you, Amercanist.

Casting:

Still like Gambon for Rummy. It's an inspired choice. If he has other obligations, I think Albert Finney would be brilliant.

Casting: what about Matt Damon as Jeff Gannon/Guckert?

- I didn't realize that all the "heroes" in "The War On Terror" were footbal players.
Posted by: brewmn on February 25, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Close. The true heroes are the Cheerleaders.

"Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

And in his next sentence: "...one-sided propaganda is the left's signature move..."

This ill-informed weiner steps in it, backpedals furiously, and then tries to lash out with a "I know you are but what am I?". Weak.

MJ Memphis on February 25, 2006 at 3:52 PM:

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.

Yeah, but we'd have to starve him first then Botox his face so it wouldn't move when he spoke.

howard on February 25, 2006 at 3:46 PM:

nothing's keeping them from starting a rightwing miramax.

True...Except talent, creativity, skill, et cetera; all the things needed to make a movie worth seeing. Generally, far rightwingers are unfunny and a bit lame...When is the last time that you've heard a rightwinger say something intentionally funny? Compare Patton to craigie, for example...

Given how screwed up the last five years have been and how the boundary between fact and fiction has become so twisted, I'm tempted to suggest that Spike Jonze ought to direct a Charlie Kaufman screenplay.

I do agree with the folks who don't want Oliver Stone on this project. Clooney's a good choice, but Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.

On second thought, David O Russell has already done one Iraq War pic. He could do something cool with Tillman's story, too.

I do agree with the folks who don't want Oliver Stone on this project. Clooney's a good choice, but Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.
Posted by: Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

Fuck that shit.

Terry Gilliam all the way.

Americanist, thanks for the Scorcese bit. I'll never forgive him for the abomination that was Gangs of New York, but that sounds like a great letter.

I'll tell you what, there's some folks here this afternoon had their Wheeties:

"Inappropriate comments aside, who has to be forced to play Ann Coulter?"

There are plenty of displaced New Orleans drag queens that could handle the part admirably.
Posted by: MJ Memphis

Oh oh oh

Only a fucking idiot would want to watch some shit like this. Just neocon propaganda. Maybe Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.

the Right Wing would do the film right. It may not be factual, but it would *feel* right.

In the biz we call that "truthiness"

Only a fucking idiot would want to watch some shit like this. Just neocon propaganda. Maybe Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.
Posted by: red_neck_repub on February 25, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

. . . or a cheerleader outfit, waving pom-poms.

Hey, but I thought they already did a rightwing Heroes/Feel-good movie, wasn't it called "Team America"?

Martin Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ

Ah, a fine film. Have the director's cut in DVD. Thanks for the story.

CD, I'm still LMAO at egbert as a stunt boulder! I gotta email the permalink to my joke-loving friends. LOL! To paraphrase Bobby Lee of MadTV, "You funny fella."

theamericanist, let me add my kudos: great, great story. i hope you've remembered it more or less accurately!

Stefan on February 25, 2006 at 4:05 PM:

you know that if you say George Clooney's name three times in succession that rdw will appear in a cloud of fire and brimstone.

Heh. I said it only once and egbert showed up.

egbert on February 25, 2006 at 3:56 PM:

Pat Tillman was a true patriot and American hero.

Who was critical of the Iraq war and was a Chomsky enthusiast...Thanks for admitting that we can be critical of the Iraq war and yet still be patriotic.

That really was a half-hearted attempt at trolling, egbert. Please try better next time, m'kay?

Chuck on February 25, 2006 at 4:17 PM:

Steven Gaghan could blow this project out of the water.

Nah. I have Gaghan for the screenplay. He did write Traffic and Syriana...Which, come to think of it, Steven Soderbergh could be a good choice for the director's chair as well.

red_neck_repub on February 25, 2006 at 4:28 PM:

Dumbya will appear in his "Mission Accomplished" flightsuit.

Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?

Casting Director,

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?
Posted by: grape_crush

Sigfried & Roy?

Slander? You mean rightwingers support lawsuits?

grape_crush: Any suggestions on who would play Dubya's codpiece?

Ringling Brothers Circus might have some available talent. : •)

If Warren Bell wants a Hollywood production about the troops in Iraq or Afghanistan he can get off his candy ass and write a very special episode of According to Jim where Jim Belushi and whoever else is in that piece of shit show travel to Iraq or Afghanistan and entertain the troops. And he can go with the cast to film the episode.

It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone.

"Slander? You mean rightwingers support lawsuits?"

Of course. They just oppose frivolous lawsuits. A "frivolous lawsuit" is simply defined as one filed either a) by a Democrat or b) against a Republican.

Moron Bell,

"It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone."

Ouch! That is just cold.

I e-mailed Warren Bell at NRO regarding his complaint there has been no movies on the Iraq war. I mentioned to him the Jessica Lynch TV movie and the series "Over There". I asked if he wanted the story of the lies about Tillman's death exposed and the anquish his parents have suffered? He responded to me by saying he felt bad for Tillman's parents and would wish the movie would emphasize Tillman's enlistment and service. Now he is addressing those who e-mailed him these sentiments by implying that the right would not react negatively but our response is just confirmation of liberal recognition of their bias. HUH?

Terry Gilliam all the way.

No, no. Gilliam has to do the absurdity/horror show of Iraq.

Lars Von Trier has to do the horror of American Policy practices Afghanistan!

osama_bin_forgotten:Fuck that shit.
Terry Gilliam all the way.

That's brilliant, better than my suguestions.

Here is a slander egbert.

You should have enlisted long ago but obviously have not because you are either cowardly, hypocritical, or a traitor to your ideals such as they are. Or, perhaps you are too old. But one can then ask, are your children serving? Perhaps you have no children because you live in your mother's basement and could not enlist even as a grade 4. In that case, you are forgiven.

So, in Bobo's world, a boulder sitting on a mountain has the right to file a lawsuit for slander?

The surely can the Gitmo inmates seek redress in the courts.

every time i read one of these rightwingers asking why doesn't "hollywood" make thus-and-such a movie, i think "why don't you?"

Mainly because Leni Riefenstahl isn't available anymore.

egbert on February 25, 2006 at 4:52 PM:

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

By suggesting that you play a boulder? Ooooh...Scary egbert uses a legal-type word. We'd better all watch it or egbert will pull out 'antidisestablishmentarianism' to make us curl up into a fetal position...

Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter.

CFShep on February 25, 2006 at 4:55 PM:

Sigfried & Roy?

No, silly...I said 'play Dubya's codpiece', not 'play on Dubya's codpiece'...Hey; is Robert Novak looking for work? He'd be perfect.

You ever hear of slander?

Speaking of the original slander drag queen, how does Man Coulter get away with "jokes" about murder?

Coulter on killing Bill Clinton:
(Responding to a question from a Catholic University student about her biggest moral or ethical dilemma) "There was one time I had a shot at Clinton. ..."

Coulter on the Supreme Court:
"If we find out someone [referring to a terrorist] is going to attack the Supreme Court next week, can't we tell Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalito?" [Cite]

...Coulter, speaking at a traditionally black college, joked that Justice John Paul Stevens should be poisoned. […] “We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens’ creme brulee,” Coulter said. [Cite]

Good one, Ba'al. With a little more hunting, we could find lots of egbert slanders here at WaMo.

Egbert, buddy, you got me all wrong.

I was only trying to make sure the right part went to the right person and given that your personality seems to rank inbetween fossils and sediment, I figured a boulder would be the perfect part for you. Thick headed and inert.

See, here in the evil bastion of librul Amurica, hollywood, we try to give our customers what they want.

If they want to see the pain and emotion from that boulder when it falls, then it is up to you to find the emotions deep within yourself and BECOME the boulder, egbert, BECOME the boulder!!!

Andy Dick for Jeff Gannon. And Ann Coulter.

In the Bell note linked by Kevin is the following gem:

Is it because one-sided propaganda is the
left's signature move, and they assume that given a chance we would do
it that way, too?

Are these guys ignorant of the propaganda devices of the right or just extremely arrogant and deluded pricks?

grape_crush: Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter.

Not bad. But lookie here. And check out her card from a playing deck.

Joshua Norton on February 25, 2006 at 5:14 PM:

Mainly because Leni Riefenstahl isn't available anymore.

Joshua's got my nomination for best comment of this thread with this post. Why can't I ever think of shit this good?

Moron Bell on February 25, 2006 at 4:59 PM:

It'll be just one more bomb in a war zone.

Yeah, I don't get that show either; I wanted to like it just because I kinda knew Larry Campbell back at school, but just couldn't disconnect my head enough to suffer through it.

BECOME the boulder, egbert, BECOME the boulder!!!

You're killing us here, Casting Director.

Yeah, I don't get that show either; I wanted to like it just because I kinda knew Larry Campbell back at school, but just couldn't disconnect my head enough to suffer through it.
Posted by: grape_crush

Kurt Russell sat right behind me at Waverly Heights Elementary in Thousand Oaks...we can't even think of this flick without Kurt.

And that solves the codpiece casting...

lib: Are these guys ignorant of the propaganda devices of the right or just extremely arrogant and deluded pricks?

Lakoff explained it, "For there to be relief there must be an affliction, an afflicted party, and a reliever who removes the affliction and is therefore a hero, and if people try to stop the hero, those people are villains for trying to prevent relief."

The brainwashed worship villian-heroes. Hold your horses. Wait until V for Vendetta comes out. The wingnuts will go crazy.

Speaking of slander: Apollo 13, that was a horrible insult to a noble and beautiful breed of dog.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you couldn't get an Afghan Hound to live on chardonnay and cigarettes.

My apologies, MJ Memphis. You're right. : )

I normally don't go around correcting spelling unless Norman Rogers is the one doing the misspelling, but this one's a pet peeve, so forgive me:

It's SCORSESE. There is no second C in this man's name.

Hey, MJ! How was Thailand! Tell us some stories.

Casting Director,

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

I'm in hysterics over this. Can you imagine egbert in person?

Shortie, my sweet.

Urgent you tell Bob re Norman.

eeeek

Hey shortstop! It was great, I'm finally over my jet lag. ;) I stayed in Bangkok most of the time, but did get to go to a nice little beach town and to the ancient city of Ayudhayya to see some really neat ruins. I got a 2 hour Thai massage most every day ($9! Can you beat that?), had some of the best food going (including at the little restuarant owned by my fiancee's oldest aunt), did a lot of shopping, and took my fiancee out a couple times to a little French cafe in the middle of the Patpong red-light district, where we had drinks and watched the street scene. Didn't take as many pictures on this trip, but I did take a few- I can email 'em if you want.

Shoot 'em over, MJ, when it's convenient. I love all travel, mine and everyone else's. Glad you had a groovy time.

"in the photo of the famous Willie Mays' catch of Vic Werz's line drive in the 1950s, you can see the Grant monument. It somehow vanished when the old ballpark was torn down -- and like Tillman will be one day, Harvard Eddie is forgotten: sic transit gloria mundi."

Make that "sic transit gloria U.S.". I know this is slightly off topic, but I adventured at a lot of websites recently who are covering the ruins of 20th century skycrapers, Hotels, factories, powerhouses etc. Many of them are demolished today, all that's left are the photos some enthusiasts made. Imho, it's shortsighted foolishness how you americans treat the monuments of the past. What doesn't exist anymore won't remind you of lessons learned before and prevent you from basing your decisions on historical insights. On the other hand, this might be exactly what reublicans want: Don't think, just follow the leader!

"Why," he asks, "are e-mailers of liberal sensibility so quick to assume I (and by extension the Right in general) would only accept one-sided propaganda?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
The right wing is ALL about one-sided propaganda. EVERYTHING is about bombastic, simpleton flag-waving ideology -- Left Behind, John Wayne's Green Berets, Lee Greenwood.
Not to mention their cartoonish, intelligence-free politicians -- Reagan, Schwarzenegger, W.

CF: Hee. Whose urgency? I don't negotiate with terrorists. Or tempests. Life's too short for that crap.

You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

Interesting idea.

Who'd be the plaintiff? Egbert or the boulder?

frankly, ha!

Bailiff: All rise! Er, except you, sir. You may roll.

Hate to derail somewhere else, but after reading this, I'd really like that asshole who wrote that article for that College Newspaper about Tillman, sit in front of the man's parents and try to tell them he was just some fascist right-wing chauvinist out to kill arabs.

Pat Tillman R.I.P.

Looks like Eddie Grant's plaque is safe in the archive of a museum called "The Baseball Reliquary":

" About three years ago, Albert received a phone call from a friend who had just moved into a house in Ho-Ho-Kus, New Jersey. The house used to belong to the widow of a retired New York City policeman, whose beat just happened to include the Polo Grounds. Apparently, this was one of the cops who rescued the Eddie Grant plaque from some hoodlums seeking to steal it after the last Giants game in 1957. The plaque, for those unfamiliar with the tale, sat beneath the towering Chesterfield Cigarette sign in the recesses of deep center field. It was a slab of bronze that honored Eddie Grant, the New York Giants shortstop who was killed in action during World War I in the Argonne Forest. The Reliquary negotiated a price for it and shipped it west to add to their archives."
http://www.mudvillemagazine.com/archives/07_2003/

egbert: You ever hear of slander? You're coming real close.

No, sweetie, no, I think you mean libel. Slander is an oral utterance, while a defamatory utterance that is is published in some form is considered libel.

You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel, and since you are, in truth, an ignorant and quite stupid moron, I'm afraid you have no case.

By the way, this first bit of legal advice was free, but anything more will cost you.

You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel, and since you are, in truth, an ignorant and quite stupid moron, I'm afraid you have no case.

It's even funnier than that. egbert's wild threat came after he was accused of resembling a boulder.

Oops, there I go again. Dissolving in giggles...

"You're forgetting, though, that truth is an absolute defense to libel"

Exactly! And this was the main line of denfense in the case of Watergate criminal Howard E. Hunt against Liberty Lobby. The magazine had claimed that Hunt had been involved in the JFK assasination. One of the interesting facts emerging in the hearing of evidence was that Hunt first gave conflicting testimony where he had been on that very special day and letter settled on the claim he had been at home. Bad luck that his family couldn't remember having seen him. He lost.

Oh jeez, this thread's been a heckuva way to start the day.

Yes, Leni might no longer be with us, but we still have Terry Gilliam, Jean-Pierre Jeunet, and Hideki Anno. Their brand of cracked-out fantasy is right up the Bush cult's alley.

And an excellent story about Marty, Americanist. He's one of my favorite directors, because he's just so open about how much he loves the movies.

Kevin,

"the result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

This strikes me as a needless insult to the troops in Afghanistan. Was there some specific screw-up in Tillman's case?
In modern warfare, death by friendly fire does not require an enormous fuckup. The same speed and ferocity of attack that kill the enemy before they can kill many of our troops inevitably kills some of our troops. Rates of death by friendly fire have gone up with each war since WW2 (when it was already something like 5%).
It is a bit like dying from cancer because anti-biotics, hygiene, and better diets protect us from the kinds of plagues and pestilences that killed people younger in the old days.
It is still a tragedy, but I don't think it fair to blame it on his fellow soldiers.

Oh, and another defense is that it isn't libel but a piece of art. Of course, comedy and satire are art, too. And I guess many here will agree that Casting Director acted in the best tradition of US satirists! ggg

the result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops.

'Enormous fuckups' happen all the time. Just last night I was reading about the Arab-Israeli Wars. The Iraqis and Jordanians sent units to help Syria's defense in '73, only to occasionally find themselves fighting the same units they came to save. During the invasion of Lebanon, two units fought an engagement for two hours before realizing they were both Israeli. SNAFUs happen even to the best of troops.

"Was there some specific screw-up in Tillman's case?"

Afaik YES. There was a total screwup of communication in violation of army rules.

"There was a total screwup of communication in violation of army rules."
Care to specify?

Right...Focus on his enlistment and service. In other words, focus right up to the part when Tillman is killed by his own side in a war he didn't support. That way, it gets a nice pretty happy ending like all the pretty purple finger people in Iraq last year...

---

Grrr, can't you google for yourself? I really hate lazy asses!
I remember three points of failure mentioned in several reports:
1. Tilman's unit split up after a breakdown of a vehicle. But the fact that Tilman's crew stayed at that point wasn't relayed to other units in that area, in violence of army regulations.
2. Another unit came under fire, saw Tilamn on that hill and immediately opened fire, instead of following orders and IDing the enemy first.
3. The army investigation of the incident violated several rules when superiors weighed in.

Slander ??

Egbert, you're a stunt boulder for chrissake !
You can't sue for slander...

jeezuz man - get a grip...

CF: Hee. Whose urgency? I don't negotiate with terrorists. Or tempests. Life's too short for that crap.
Posted by: shortstop

Pretty sure Bob isn't terrorist. Issue re identity of Norman has been sorted out.

Shhh...I'm working on a complex calculation.

How many times would a yellow ribbon Support-Our-Troops magnet bedizened SUV have to circle the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door to equal one coast-to-coast flyover, latte optional, in terms of the contribution to the GHG issue and depletion of the ozone layer?

Inquiring minds want to know.

"How many times would a yellow ribbon Support-Our-Troops magnet bedizened SUV have to circle the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door to equal one coast-to-coast flyover, latte optional, in terms of the contribution to the GHG issue and depletion of the ozone layer?"

This is a superflous question that ignores the reality. For most americans, this isn't a either - or decision, they go both and care a s*** about the environment. On the other hand, many of them aren't able to walk more then 10 feet without any oxygen mask, sure...

6 and a half billionth baby born, and --it was Jesus!!!

Hey, shortstop- you have pics. They will be coming from a hotmail address.

"6 and a half billionth baby born, and --it was Jesus!!!"

Actually, that is Jesus, Jr. His father, Jesus, Sr., is an auto mechanic in Laredo.

This is a superflous question that ignores the reality. For most americans, this isn't a either - or decision, they go both and care a s*** about the environment. On the other hand, many of them aren't able to walk more then 10 feet without any oxygen mask, sure...
Posted by: Gray

This is a reference to a flyover thingie on another thread I do agree wid ya though, darhlin.

It's Wily running, running, running on thin air...and everything just great as long as he doesn't back down.

I have though arrived at the conclusion that the price of gas would have to reach $600/oz to stop people endlessly circling the Wal-Mart parking lot to avoid walking ten feet to the door.

"Grrr, can't you google for yourself?"
No, I'd prefer that you, and our illustrious host for that matter, have some support for alleging that Tillman's death was the "result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

But, of course, you don't have it. Clicking the link (yawn, sorry) we see that Tillman's platoon did split up, he moved ahead as part of the first element, and the second element, having been attacked, mistook Tillman and his group for enemy after pulling forward. So, assuming the article is accurate, you're completely wrong on all of your first point and most of the second.

The part about IDing the enemy while under fire cracks me right up. Do the local Taliban militia have a history of immediately ceasing fire and presenting their credentials upon request? Do they walk around with lit sparklers hanging out of their asses, thereby easily distinguished from the good guys? I mean you don't go firing willy-nilly, especially with friendly units in the area, but you try to make a snap under fire decision as to who's a threat from 65 meters away in the late afternoon sunlight. If anything shows the ignorance of the public (and the second guessing press and politicians, while we're at it) towards the difficulty of basic military maneuvers, it's dumbshit statements like that.

Your third statement has nothing to do with the incident. But you've got to ask yourself, why does the Army set out not to learn from an unfortunate incident like this but to trash careers? Who wouldn't engage in some CYA when they saw that coming down the pike?

BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

CF: Pretty sure Bob isn't terrorist.

Yeah, the (emotional) terrorist joke was ill conceived. I retract that. The rest stands.

MJ: Oooh, photos! I'll check 'em out when I back in tonight. Running out now.

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scouser on February 25, 2006 at 7:48 PM:

have some support for alleging that Tillman's death was the "result of an enormous fuckup by our own troops."

Alleged, my ass...Unintentionally blowing off one of your fellow soldier's heads contitutes a pretty enormous fuckup. Especially if you are the one getting shot.

but you try to make a snap under fire decision as to who's a threat from 65 meters away in the late afternoon sunlight.

And when you make the wrong decision, it's commonly called a fuckup. When someone gets killed as a result of a wrong decision, it can be considered to be an enormous fuckup. From the article that you were so bored with:

Although the driver of the second group’s lead vehicle, according to his testimony, recognized Tillman’s group as “friendlies” and tried to signal others in his vehicle not to shoot, they directed fire toward the Afghan and began shooting wildly, without first identifying their target

Getting hit by friendly fire consitiutes a fuckup.

why does the Army set out not to learn from an unfortunate incident like this but to trash careers?

What's there to learn? You yourself wrote that military maneuvers are difficult...As for 'trashing careers', it's called accountability, a concept that you seem to be unfamiliar with.

BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

So there's no mirror in the scouser house, then...

The good thing about movies is that you don't have to go with the Pat Tillman you had, but you can actually go with the Pat Tillman you wish you had.

the actress playing Sean Astin's junkie sister on ``24'' right now would make a good Coulter.
Peter Coyote as Paul Wolfowitz.
Now that I've googled his picture, Christian Bale seems like a good choice for Tillman, but he's gotta be able to play football. I hate it when uncoordinated actors play athletes.

and, I can't help myself: It's ScorSese, not with a ''c.''

grape_crush: "Speaking of slander, I think that I found a character to play Ann Coulter."

Apollo 13: "Not bad. But lookie here. And check out her card from a playing deck."
http://www.internetweekly.org/2005/02/cartoon_holy_card_ann_coulter.html

That is a particularly appropriate card for Coulter.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=222

She ripped off the look from St. Dymphna, who is the patron saint of the insane.

scouser: BTW I really hate ignorant asses!

Then looking in the mirror must be a traumatic experience for you. Oh, but wait. Maybe you don't cast a reflection. But you are a lazy assclown and a shit for boring us [yawn] with your piffle. And without a link! Just mindless ramblings without proof.

Forgive me, my fellow liberals, for the long snippets from WaPo but some fucktards like scouser have to be spoon fed. First hit on Google for "pat tillman death". Here's the printer-friendly link because the WaPo article is five pages long with a journal of the entire account from the documents and sworn testimony that they obtained. Gray's list checks off for 1, 2 and 3, BTW. Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades (washingtonpost.com) [Emphasis added.]:

Dozens of witness statements, e-mails, investigation findings, logbooks, maps and photographs obtained by The Washington Post show that Tillman died unnecessarily after botched communications, a mistaken decision to split his platoon over the objections of its leader, and negligent shooting by pumped-up young Rangers -- some in their first firefight -- who failed to identify their targets as they blasted their way out of a frightening ambush.

The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders.

[...]

The A Company commander, under pressure from his superior to get moving, ordered Uthlaut to split his platoon.

Uthlaut objected. "I would recommend sending our whole platoon up to the highway and then having us go together to the villages," he wrote in an e-mail to the operations center at 5:03 p.m. With sunset approaching, he wrote, even if he split the platoon, the serial that went to Manah would not be able to carry out search operations before dark. And under procedures at the time, he was not supposed to conduct such operations at night.

But why? Uthlaut asked, as he recalled in a sworn statement. Do you want us to change procedures and conduct sweep operations at night?

No, said the A Company commander.

"So the only reason you want me to split up is so I can get boots on the ground in sector before it gets dark?" an incredulous Uthlaut asked, as he recalled.

Yes, said his commander.

Uthlaut tried "one last-ditch effort," pointing out that he had only one heavy .50-caliber machine gun for the entire platoon. Did that change anything? The commander said it did not.

"At that point I figured I had pushed the envelope far enough and accepted the mission," Uthlaut recalled in the statement.

He pulled his men together hastily and briefed them. Twenty-four hours after its detection, the broken Humvee part had brought them to a difficult spot: They had to divide into two groups quickly and get moving across a darkening, hostile landscape.

Serial 1, led by Uthlaut and including Pat Tillman, would move immediately to Manah.

Serial 2, with the local tow truck hauling the Humvee, would follow, but would soon branch off toward a highway to drop off the vehicle.

[...]

Pat Tillman's serial, with Uthlaut in command, soon turned into a steep and narrow canyon, passed through safely and approached Manah as planned.

Behind them, Serial 2 briefly started down a different road, then stopped. The Afghan tow truck driver said he could not navigate the pitted road. He suggested they turn around and follow the same route that Serial 1 had taken. After Serial 2 passed Manah, the group could circle around to the designated highway. Serial 2's leader, the platoon sergeant, agreed.

There was no radio communication between the two serials about this change in plans.

[...]

Rangers are trained to shoot only after they have clearly identified specific targets as enemy forces. Gunners working together are supposed to follow orders from their vehicle's commander -- in this case, Baker. If there is no chance for orderly talk, the gunners are supposed to watch their commander's aim and shoot in the same direction.

[...]

As they pulled alongside the ridge, the gunners poured an undisciplined barrage of hundreds of rounds into the area where Tillman and other members of Serial 1 had taken up positions, Army investigators later concluded. The gunner of the M-2 .50-caliber machine gun in Baker's truck fired every round he had.

The shooters saw only "shapes," a Ranger-appointed investigator wrote, and all of them directed bursts of machine gun fire "without positively identifying the shapes."

[...]

The driver shouted twice: "We have friendlies on top!" Then he screamed "No!" Then he yelled several more times to cease fire, he recalled. "No one heard me."

Up on the ridge, Tillman and Rangers around him began to wave their arms and shout. But they only attracted more fire from Baker's vehicle.

"I saw three to four arms pop up," one of the gunners with Baker recalled. "They did not look like the cease-fire hand-and-arm signal because they were waving side to side." When he and the other gunners spotted the waving arms, their "rate of fire increased."

The young Ranger nearest Tillman on the ridge, whose full name could not be confirmed, saw a Humvee coming down the road. "They made eye contact with us," then began firing, he remembered. Baker's heavily armed vehicle "rolled into our sight and started to unload on top of us. They would work in bursts."

Tillman and nearly a dozen other Rangers on the ridge tried everything they could: They shouted, they waved their arms, and they screamed some more.

"Ranger! Ranger! Cease fire!" one soldier on the ridge remembered shouting.

"But they couldn't hear us," recalled the soldier nearest Tillman. Then Tillman "came up with the idea to let a smoke grenade go." As its thick smoke unfurled, "This stopped the friendly contact for a few moments," the Ranger recalled.

"We thought the battle was over, so we were relieved, getting up and stretching out, and talking with one another."

Suddenly he saw the attacking Humvee move into "a better position to fire on us." He heard a new machine gun burst and hit the ground, praying, as Pat Tillman fell.

A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.

The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor.

Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John P. Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. But the Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after a nationally televised memorial service that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.

[...]

"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brooks said. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."

Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command, from Tillman's direct supervisors to the one-star general who conducted the latest investigation, to face discipline for "dishonorable acts." He also said the soldiers who killed his son have not been adequately punished.

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," he said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

That their son was famous opened up the situation to problems, the Tillmans say, in part because of the devastating public relations loss his death represented for the military. Mary Tillman says the government used her son for weeks after his death, perpetuating an u