Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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March 1, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

SAY IT....On the other hand, I fully endorse the pithy view expressed by Atrios here.

Kevin Drum 1:54 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (125)

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Comments

here here.

Posted by: Scott on March 1, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

Repost!

Sincerely,

theperegrine

Posted by: theperegrine on March 1, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

Unfortunately, my wife has to get a Mac for a project, at the insistence of the project manager. Ugh.

Posted by: Freedom Phukher on March 1, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

huh? where?

...context?

Posted by: Phobos Deimos on March 1, 2006 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

er, nevermind. browser bootch. Didn't show a link until I refreshed...

Posted by: Phobos Deimos on March 1, 2006 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

Well, then I'll say the same thing to Kevin I said to Duncan:

fuck you, too.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 2:06 PM | PERMALINK

It's an Apple thing. I wouldn't understand.

Posted by: Matt on March 1, 2006 at 2:08 PM | PERMALINK

Too bad. Macs have more fun. Its the Unix, you know.

Posted by: troglodyte on March 1, 2006 at 2:09 PM | PERMALINK

And Java sucks too.

I am using Fortran II on my punched card machine.

Posted by: lib on March 1, 2006 at 2:11 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Kevin: We don't, either. Signed, Mac Users.

Posted by: Kip Manley on March 1, 2006 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

Wow. Does using Windows cause that much bile to build up? Or is it a side effect of the "drop-yer-drawers" approach to security in the OS?

Posted by: Matt on March 1, 2006 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

Honestly. You'd think a member of minority Democratic party, who *knows* that his perspective on all issues of significance beats that of majority Republican party, hands down, would have a bit more sympathy for Macintosh users whom after all, live in precisely the same relationship to Windows users.

Posted by: John on March 1, 2006 at 2:13 PM | PERMALINK

Have fun with your spyware. And just wait until Longhorn is taking snapshots of your machine and emailing them to Redmond.

I switched two years ago and it was the best thing I ever did vis-a-vis computers.

Posted by: ChrisS on March 1, 2006 at 2:14 PM | PERMALINK

Just think of how much the Windows support industry has boosted the economy in the past 10 years...If it weren't for Microsoft / Windows bugs and interoperability issues, the IT industry would probably be 3/4 the size it is now...

Posted by: grape_crush on March 1, 2006 at 2:16 PM | PERMALINK

What a bunch of pathetic sore losers. PC is fine for email and surfing the internet. If you're doing anything beyond lining up the alphabet, crunching numbers or consuming flash ads and low-rez videos on the internet...they're a joke.

Posted by: brucds on March 1, 2006 at 2:17 PM | PERMALINK

Hey Kev, why don't you needlessly piss off a segment of your readers two posts after you asked for our help promoting your blog?

Posted by: Rob on March 1, 2006 at 2:17 PM | PERMALINK

This captures the difference.

http://tinyurl.com/pzuhm

Posted by: brucdsb on March 1, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

Wheee! A Mac-Windows holy war.

How you Mac-guys liking your Intel chips?

And having to emulate Windows to run any new versions of Photoshop for the next 18-24 months?

And that potential Disney-Apple merger. Wheee!

Posted by: Phobos Deimos on March 1, 2006 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

The point both Kevin and Atrios miss:

The internet is platform agnostic. Any Mac, Windows, BSD, or Linux user has every right to complain that MSNBC uses shitty monopolist lock-in techniques to try and destroy that platform neutrality.

YOU DESERVE TO BE CHIDED IF YOU DO THAT.

The internet is what it is because it is not dependent on the underlying hardware or OS. If you publish on the web, you should make reasonable efforts to make sure all modern OSs on modern platforms can view your content. If you think this is a minor or academic point, you are ignorant of computing history.

To not honor said platform neutrality is to show contempt for what the internet is.

This has nothing to do with Mac vs. PC. It has to do with MSNBC trying to coopt the internet and turn it into a Windows-only thing (which is to everyone's detriment, including you self-righteous Windows users). That's bullshit. I'm sure a lot of folks whined to Atrios about that, when they should be boycotting MSNBC. Atrios would have been justified in pointing that out.

But saying he does not care about things that sabotage the medium he uses to communicate is just plain ignorant.

Atrios' and Kevin's reactions are childish, stupid, and ignorant. Congratulations.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 2:24 PM | PERMALINK

I've been reading this blog for about a year and a half. During that time, I've noticed one--ONE--first volley from a Mac user. The rest of the time, Kevin just throws bombs, then wails about how annoying Mac people are.

Well, some of them are, no doubt about it. Most of us just go quietly about our business, never saying a word for or against PCs. It's not that important to most of us; I've used PCs and I've used Macs and so what? You don't know most of us on Macs are even here, because we don't get into these childish arguments.

Wish I could say the same for Kevin.

Posted by: shortstop on March 1, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK

Oooh. Mac/PC Holy Wars! Still going after more than 20 years and still completely mindless.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

Vocal Mac users are like the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party". "Stop ignoring us! We're a significant fraction!"

Posted by: Phobos Deimos on March 1, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

And having to emulate Windows to run any new versions of Photoshop for the next 18-24 months?

What the hell are you smoking, Phobos Deimos? You haven't a clue what you are talking about. At least try to make your anti-Mac flames mildly informed (which is pretty hard, I know, as the average anti-Mac zealot knows precisely nothing about the Mac platform).

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 2:28 PM | PERMALINK

Mac vs PC=Shia vs. Sunni.

Discuss...

Posted by: Mr. Bill on March 1, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, can someone explain the substance of the MSNBC thing for those of us for whom blogspot is currently inaccessible?

Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

That's not nice.


Anyhoo, we don't give a shit about your computer either. And there's no reason to be nasty.

Posted by: four legs good on March 1, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

BFD

Posted by: Keith G on March 1, 2006 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Windows users.

When you whine and complain about spyware, bugs and crashes, etc. and beg me for help in cleaning your systems?

I don't care.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 1, 2006 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

MAC users are whiny bastards who seem endlessly pissed that the rest of the world doesn't climb onboard the coolwagon with them.

Grow up. You lost. MACs are niche machines, are going to be treated as niche machines, no matter how freakin' cool you feel they are.

On the other hand, I quite enjoy my Ipod -- and prefer my Unix development enviroment to my home XP box.

Posted by: Morat20 on March 1, 2006 at 2:33 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, can someone explain the substance of the MSNBC thing for those of us for whom blogspot is currently inaccessible?

It's impossible to view any video content on the MSNBC website unless you have Windows and Internet Explorer (IIRC, it might allow Firefox, but I don't think so).

MS tries to make the web a little better for Windows users in order to extend their monopoly. So any time you link to a MSNBC video, some proportion of your audience can not see that video.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 2:34 PM | PERMALINK

If Macs are outlawed, only outlaws will have Macs.

Posted by: craigie on March 1, 2006 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

John, with regard to your statement that Mac users and Dems are in exactly the same situation: Oh, I hope not. I know things are bad, but we're not outnumbered 97-3. Not yet, anyway.

Posted by: Carl on March 1, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Firefox users on Windows are SOL too. The only way to view video content on MSNBC is to hand your personal computer over to Microsoft.

("Trust us!")

Posted by: John on March 1, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Morat20:

MAC = Media Access Control address (on you networking card).

Mac = an Apple computer.

iPod is the device you have and enjoy.

Mac OS X is a Unix development environment.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 2:38 PM | PERMALINK

Carl, point taken. I guess it just *feels* like we're the 3% party -

Posted by: John on March 1, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK

Whatsamatta you, Morat20? Macs ain't no niche machines; they beat the pants off PCs in dependability, rock-steady OS and freedom from worms and stuff. Or maybe to like crashes and infections?

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 1, 2006 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

"What a bunch of pathetic sore losers. PC is fine for email and surfing the internet. If you're doing anything beyond lining up the alphabet, crunching numbers or consuming flash ads and low-rez videos on the internet...they're a joke."

Eh, well, Kevin is a marketing guy, and Atrios is, what, a poli sci prof or something? That's probably about all they use it for anyway.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Teece is dead on wrt MSNBC and proprietary formats. Duncan, while always amusing, and almost always correct, is wrong on this point.

Kevin is surprisingly not even seeking his usual the wishy washy middle ground here.

Posted by: jerry on March 1, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

Incidentally, isn't Kevin the one that, many many moons ago (maybe back in the CalPundit days), was making a plea for help on his blog because his mom's computer was so infested with spyware as to become unusable?

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 2:46 PM | PERMALINK

Dear Kevin:

I'll be sure to remember that the next time you post any sort of technical problem you're having- since you are a Windows user, I'll be sure not to care if the problem would be irrelevant on a Mac.

By the way...try accessing that MSNBC link Atrios is using on Windows using Firefox, your preferred browser. See? It's not just Mac users.

Having reasonable expertise on BOTH systems (in software development, even), I've learned to ignore the trolls on both sides (and yes, they are out there), but it's my considered opinion that you're incompetent or being deliberately exclusionary if you can't make content on the Internet available to any browser/OS combination (and before you Windows trolls start jumping my shit, Apple does this too- try using the iTunes Music Store or viewing Quicktime content on Linux). There's no real TECHNICAL reason to not be platform-agnostic besides "we don't want to help the competition".

Posted by: eponymous coward on March 1, 2006 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, you should get a cuisinart blender.

Posted by: B on March 1, 2006 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK
MAC = Media Access Control address (on you networking card).

Mac = an Apple computer.

iPod is the device you have and enjoy.

Mac OS X is a Unix development environment.


Let's apply the "Reasonability test". Did you understand what I wrote and what I meant? Sure did! Does that mean your response was pedantic? Sure does.

And yes, I realize Mac OS X is written on Unix. So?

Whatsamatta you, Morat20? Macs ain't no niche machines; they beat the pants off PCs in dependability, rock-steady OS and freedom from worms and stuff. Or maybe to like crashes and infections?
Perhaps you should look up the word "niche" -- it has nothing to do with stability or security. It does have pretty much everything to do with how much of the market you control -- virtually none.

Guys -- face up to facts. The Mac/Windows war was over decades ago. Mac lost. Badly. Get over it.

Posted by: Morat on March 1, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

This helps me understand why Kevin isn't particularly bothered by the prospect of Dubai controlling our ports.

Posted by: brucds on March 1, 2006 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK
Incidentally, isn't Kevin the one that, many many moons ago (maybe back in the CalPundit days), was making a plea for help on his blog because his mom's computer was so infested with spyware as to become unusable?
Yep. And "Get a Mac" had the virtue of not only being USELESS advice but fucking stupid to boot.

She already HAS a computer. Why should she spend several hundred dollars to get another -- not to mention replace software and learn a new system?

Frankly, I can easily chase down my conversion from "Whatever" to "Fuck off, asswipe" on converations about Macs to the sudden surge in that VERY response.

He didn't WANT to buy a new computer. He wanted to fix his -- which was perfectly doable and at most required a wipe and reinstall. Instead of giving relelvent advice, you pimp a 'solution' that does NOTHING for him.

You might as well have answered "Dude, become Amish!" for the all the fucking good "Get a Mac" does him.

Posted by: Morat on March 1, 2006 at 2:53 PM | PERMALINK

I take "niche" to mean not the size of your market share, but the specialized nature of that share. I believe that's how most people mean the term.

On second thought, maybe you're right, Macs are for that niche in the market that wants dependability, stability, and freedom from various expensive and annoying attacks on one's system.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 1, 2006 at 2:55 PM | PERMALINK

And, of course, what has happened is that PC users have lost badly, and Mac users have won the war.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 1, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK
It's impossible to view any video content on the MSNBC website unless you have Windows and Internet Explorer (IIRC, it might allow Firefox, but I don't think so).

Oh. That sucks, though MSNBC is hardly unique in doing this; relying on IE quirks, IE-only plugins, and technology currently only hosted by IE that abstractly could be hosted by other browsers is fairly common on the Web, and even more common when the site involved is affiliated in some way with Microsoft (duh!).

OTOH, really, who wants to watch MSNBC's video, anyway?

Macs ain't no niche machines; they beat the pants off PCs in dependability, rock-steady OS and freedom from worms and stuff. Or maybe to like crashes and infections?

For the price, I can get a better performing PC with protective software; haven't had a crash (but for hardware abuse like blocking the cooling vents on my laptop) for several years, haven't had an infection in nearly a decade of using PCs.

While I understand the abstract advantages of Macs, there's never been sufficient reason for me to put up with the hassle of switching over, and, anyway, Linux has most of the same abstract attractions, and is cheaper (since, after all, I wouldn't have to replace any hardware.)

Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

"The Mac/Windows war was over decades ago. Mac lost. Badly."

That's like claiming that there's no point going to a decent restaurant anymore because of the prevalence of fast food. Some of us have higher standards and need better machines. It's as simple as that.

Posted by: brucds on March 1, 2006 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

I've never owned a non-Mac computer in my whole life. Why? Because I like Macs better, even though they're probably not worth the extra money they cost.

You know what I hate? People who think Apple is a political cause, or even a religion for which to seek converts.

Apple is just another evil corporation and Steve Jobs is just another dickhead CEO. In fact, given Apple's authoritarian tendencies, Apple would probably be even more evil than Microsoft if they had half the market share MS does.

And now Apple has managed to convince millions of people to return to buying music from culture-destroying corporations after the internet has succeeded in making music and movies free for everyone.

I'm sure Apple's executives and shareholders laugh with glee every time they see people treating them as a cause for which it's worth forking over cash as if you're performing a public service. Suckers.

Posted by: maximus on March 1, 2006 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

The war is over and the Mac lost badly? I dunno. I'm happily computing away with a houseful of recent vintage Macintoshes (having bought more of them than I can count since 1985) and with the exception of a few sites that keep trying to force the internet into one or another proprietary format, I have no trouble using my machines in a Windows-dominated world. (I'll forego the usual list of Windows-related headaches that I don't have to contend with.) If that's losing, I'll take lots more of it!

That 900% increase in share price has been kind of fun to ride up too -

Posted by: John on March 1, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

"For the price, I can get a better performing PC with protective software'...which sometimes actually works. Not that I buy your "better performing machine" premise.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 1, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK

Guys -- face up to facts. The Mac/Windows war was over decades ago. Mac lost. Badly. Get over it.

And, to amplify on some previous comments, please note that various parts of this Interweb that are pretty popular (TCP/IP, HTML, CSS, RSS, MP3, Java, etc.) are implementations that are essentially platform neutral. As long as you've implemented TCP/IP correctly, you could be using a goddamned PDP-20 and Fortran, or a team of Chinese accountants and abaci.

So why should I care who wins or loses? It makes sense that MSNBC, onwnd by Microsoft, admitted monopolist, doesn't particularly care about anyone other than Windows customers (outside of their tiny Mac Business Unit, who loves them to death). But I think it should be blindingly obvious to a Unix user that platform-agnostic content = good, and an Internet that doesn't give a crap what company you choose to buy your OS from (or even if you use free OS's) is also good.

Posted by: eponymous coward on March 1, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK

Guys -- face up to facts. The Mac/Windows war was over decades ago. Mac lost. Badly. Get over it.

Hmm. So how would I get over it? I owned my first Mac in Dec. 2004 -- it's the best personal computer I've ever had, out of very many computers running many different OSs (Commodore and TI Basic [yup, that was all you got for an OS], all flavors of MSDOS, DRDOS, all flavors of Windows, many flavors of Linux, a couple BSDs, Solaris, NeXT, and now Mac OS X).

So how is it, exactly, that they "lost?" And what am I supposed to do to "get over it?" And what game did they "lose" and by what rules?

Do you even know what the subject is here? Because I kind of doubt you do.

In this issue: 50% of Atrios' viewers can not view the Tweety video he posted. FIFTY PERCENT.

But go head, you keep pretending this is a Mac vs. PC thing (and that your side won! yippe!) *rolls eyes*

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

Oh c'mon. Kevin says "someone please help me with some techie issue on my PC" and he gets a flood of "you should switch to Mac" emails and comments.

He doesn't care. Nor should he. And all those glib, self-congratulating Mac users seem happy to overlook that they:
a) did not help Kevin with the techie issue
b) made him resent Mac even more

I use both platforms, and enjoy both platforms. And I'll side with Mac on many issues. But man, for every PC nerd who doesn't fear regedit.exe, there's (apparently) 10 snotty iBook carriers willing to snort at him. It's undeniable, and it's ugly.

And Jehova's Witnesses are largely very sweet, polite people; but there's no shortage of "I don't care" complaints about them, either.

Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK
"For the price, I can get a better performing PC with protective software'...which sometimes actually works.

Well, I've been completely free of the supposed problems which are why I am supposed to be willing to pay a premium and give up software that I prefer which tends to often be PC-only, PC-first, or better supported on PC in order to get the "security and stability" of a Mac.

Either the software is working for me, or it is unnecessary; either way, there is no reason for me to switch to a Mac.

That's not to say the same is true for everyone. I've used Macs and PCs and probably around a dozen different flavors of Linux/Unix -- but I'm not fanatical about any of them.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 3:11 PM | PERMALINK

You know what's really funny?

Is how pissed off guys like morat get!


Posted by: fabo on March 1, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Morat, I'm going to assume you are using the generic "you", since a) I don't think I participated on that thread and b) I don't tell people to "Get a Mac!" For that matter, the machine sitting on my desk at home is a Dell running WinXP Home. I'm not going to complain about Windows too much- the current incarnation of Windows is about as good as the Mac systems that I used 5 or 6 years ago, so it actually feels more comfortable to me than the newer Mac systems (which I haven't really sat down and used except when I visit home).

However, if- like Kevin- I had a machine rendered nearly unuseable due to horrid security breaches, with no real user error (I'm assuming his mom wasn't visiting porn or hacker sites), I would hesitate a bit before being too insulting towards other systems. And, as has been pointed out, this isn't strictly a Mac thing. The main way I keep the spyware on my system to a reasonable level is by using Firefox as much as possible; anything that forces me to use Internet Exploder is, IMO, a bad thing.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, and I see Atrios was referring to some proprietary media player for viewing MSNBC-hosted videos.

So Mac users are complaining to Atrios about that?

And he should care...why? And he should do...exactly what about it?

And how does this engender any respect or pathos for the Mac users who refuse to use (borrow, go to the library, ask a friend) a different machine to view the video, are unable to find any sort of patch or crack to break into the content, are unable to find any ally in PC-land to swipe and post the content?

I see why Kevin's on board with this. I love Macs, but really; they're not a religion. Find a way to solve your problem, ask someone nicely for help, or shut the hell up.

Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

Linux has most of the same abstract attractions, and is cheaper

I used to think this, too, cmdicely.

I was a Linux user for about 10 years. When I got my Mac, I intended to only use it as a secondary machine for photo editing work (Linux applications have no real color management to speak of, they can't handle 48 bit color, and there is a dearth of really good photo apps like Photoshop, iView Media Pro, etc. All you have is the Gimp, and it lacks a couple of key things for me).

But once I hand my iMac G5, in a matter of a week or two my Linux desktop fell into complete disuse. Mac OS X is really, far and way, the best consumer desktop ever made. It's hard to appreciate just how much better it is until you have actually lived with it for awhile.

As for hassle and incompatibilities: there are hardly any to speak of. Occasional stupid sites like MSNBC give you problems, but it's generally very minor and easy to ignore. Just about any application functionality on a PC exists on a Mac, there's tons of software, file formats are often completely portable. Macs can share data with Windows and Unix PCs, so migrating data is very easy. Almost any program you can run on Linux/BSD will run on Mac OS X, so you have that entire open source pool if you want it (but I find that I don't -- I much prefer the Mac-centiric applications).

The only real issue was cost, and it was well worth it for me. But even the cost issue is blown way out of proportion.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

I am using Fortran II on my punched card machine.

Troglodyte! I'm using Fortran IV.

Posted by: tom on March 1, 2006 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

And on question #23 I typed, "iDontCare.com." Oh wait. Wrong comments section.

Posted by: bobby on March 1, 2006 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

"Troglodyte! I'm using Fortran IV."

Ugh. *repressing memories of having to learn Fortran 77 in 1996 for college*

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

Find a way to solve your problem, ask someone nicely for help, or shut the hell up.

I don't think you fully understand the point, brent.

You CAN NOT solve the problem, or get help to solve the problem, of MSNBC proprietary bullshit. There is no way to view MSNBC content on Firefox on Windows let alone on a Mac or Linux machine. This is not a computer problem -- this is one company trying to destroy the platform that many people love to use, by choice, whether it be Linux or Mac or BSD or Solaris. They do so by making sure that, in violation of the spirit of the 'net and the web, that their sites are only fully functional on a very specific, very monopoly platform.

I can totally empathize with Kevin and Duncan getting annoyed with Mac or Linux users pointing that out, to them. But to say it's a non-issue that they don't care about shows a profound ignorance of the technological medium which makes their communication possible. Kevin and Duncan do have a choice of whom to link to, so they are not totally blameless in this. They give a kind of endorsement by linking to MSNBC video. It's not all that different than liberals pointing out that they don't like fellow liberals shopping at Wal*Mart.

Their attitude is not cool.

They get tons of annoying and silly email as it is. Picking this issue to rib someone with a legitimate gripe, in such a prickly way, is just plain mean-spirited and ignorant.

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 3:27 PM | PERMALINK

This is really very funny.

Over the past year or so, I've read at least three whiny posts from Kevin telling us about the hours he's had to spend unclogging his own PC or his mother's PC from viruses and spyware. He's begged for our help and moaned about the loss of time, privacy, and money. He's poured out his sorrows - all of which stem from his foolish choice of operating system... and now he tells us that it doesn't really matter??

For someone who doesn't care, Kevin, you sure spend a lot of time crying on your keyboard.

Posted by: Oregonian (Mac user) on March 1, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

BMW worldwide sales makes it a niche automobile manufacturer.

Therefore BMWs are irrelevant.

Oh and Duncan Black is an ass. He's proved it multiple times.

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus on March 1, 2006 at 3:34 PM | PERMALINK

If someone told me they thought their brand of coffee was bitter and tarry, and asked me what they could do about it, I would probably recommend by brand of coffee. Moreover, I would be surprised when they got pissed at me for doing so, on the grounds that what they want, dammit, is a solution to the bad taste of *their* coffee, not my damn coffee!

As has been noted elsewhere, no one gets up in arms when you recommend Firefox over IE. Why is computer choice so personal? IMO, this is the same obstinate attitude that stuck us with VHS instead of BetaMax.

Posted by: CrackWilding on March 1, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

"BMW worldwide sales makes it a niche automobile manufacturer.

Therefore BMWs are irrelevant."

Look, you BMW snob, your side lost, badly. Now go out and get yourself a Civic and stop whining.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

I've never read Atrios, so I guess I won't start.
And now that I see what a /cunt/ Kevin is, I'll be deleting this bookmark.

Posted by: Killer on March 1, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

However, if- like Kevin- I had a machine rendered nearly unuseable due to horrid security breaches, with no real user error (I'm assuming his mom wasn't visiting porn or hacker sites), I would hesitate a bit before being too insulting towards other systems.

hm. That's user error? I go to porn and hacker sites all the time on my Mac. I don't get spyware and viruses and adware and crapware, because I don't run as Administrator - because I don't NEED to to make stuff work. I'm also taking a class on Windows software development, using my Mac - maybe not the most intuitive setup, but there are workarounds (except when Microsoft's web site refuses to register Visual Studio 2005, because Passport says "the site is invalid" - whatever, I'll just rollback and reinstall). Life is good.

But man, for every PC nerd who doesn't fear regedit.exe....,
Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

I don't fear regedit, reg.exe, regini, nt4 policies, GPO policies, custom templates, hex editors, or debuggers.

I fear software that doesn't work as advertised, and when the behavior is explained to phone support people, who defer to backline support, who then defer to developers, and after weeks of hemming and hawing, can't find anyone who knows the source code of the particular component, basically just give up trying to solve the problem.

I especially fear when a government mandates use of such software for the defense and security of my country.

I also fear that when 97% of other internet nodes out there are running insecure bug-ridden crap, that they're easily infected by worms and trojans that, while they cannot infect MY system, they can cause systemic failures that slow down my internet experience, or put my personal data on someone else's system at risk.

Microsoft, and their customers, deserve every ounce, every shred of scorn, derision, and contempt that is levelled at them, from people who know their way around computers, as well as non-technical hipsters with an iBook who would be frightened to use regedit. When nontechnical Mac users become a threat to the security and performance of others on the internet - THEN we can start criticising Apple's engineering practices.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 1, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

OBF- no, it's not user error if you intend to go there. :)

What I was intending to say is that, presumably, she was not visiting particularly "risky" sites, not using the computer for anything other than normal use, etc- yet her computer still got taken down with malicious software.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

Not only is it just like folks asking others not to shop at Walmart, but it is an echo of the argument from next year about DRMed media.

Will Kevin and Duncan say NOW that in the future they will be okay with only being able to post DRMed video?

Kevin/Atrios 2006: To linux/nonDRM users: I don't care!

Same thing because it's the same folks behind both.

To Oregonian, Kevin has to say he doesn't care. It's cognitive dissonance at work. If he that it matters, then he would have to admit that his time supporting mom is time flushed down the crapper due to his own choice of computers. So he is forced, like Morat, to say it doesn't matter.

Similarly with Afghanistan and Iraq. So who cares which one OBL is in. Doesn't matter, just hit them hard.

See, I have now shown that Kevin and Duncan's statements that they do not care is equivalent to Rummy and Bush going after to Saddam.

I have made myself sad.

Posted by: jerry on March 1, 2006 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

Wow Kev,

You sound like you really don't care about some of your readers. So, guess what I guess I will not care enough to include Washington Monthly in my survery responses. It is a shame too because something tells me that you have a higher percentage of Mac, and/or windows Firefox, users than you realise. While not exactly scientific, of the liberals I hang out with over half have at least one Mac in the house if not more.

Oh well, I will enjoy your writing still but be disappointed you seem to hold us Mac users just above the republicans.

Posted by: Jay on March 1, 2006 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINK

OBF: "Microsoft, and their customers, deserve every ounce, every shred of scorn, derision, and contempt that is levelled at them, from people who know their way around computers, as well as non-technical hipsters with an iBook who would be frightened to use regedit. When nontechnical Mac users become a threat to the security and performance of others on the internet - THEN we can start criticising Apple's engineering practices."

Who is criticising Apple's enineering practices? Atrios and Kevin are saying they aren't interested in hearing Mac users' complaints. And I'm saying that it's probably because so many Mac users are self-righteous, crazy-indignant, and rude about this topic.

And, to recap, you're saying that people who purchase Microsoft products deserve scorn, derision, and contempt.

I really can't see how we disagree.

Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

And I'm saying that it's probably because so many Mac users are self-righteous, crazy-indignant, and rude about this topic.

Yeah, they are downright shrill.

Posted by: jerry on March 1, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh well, I will enjoy your writing still but be disappointed you seem to hold us Mac users just above the republicans."

No no, you've got it backwards. If you were a Republican, he'd try to meet you in the middle, or maybe a little farther just to show his centrist bona-fides.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 3:58 PM | PERMALINK

jerry: "See, I have now shown that Kevin and Duncan's statements that they do not care is equivalent to Rummy and Bush going after to Saddam."

and then: "Yeah, they are downright shrill."

Come back with comparative body counts for your "equivalent" issues and I'll take your "shrill" sarcasm more to heart.

Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

Guys -- face up to facts. The Mac/Windows war was over decades ago. Mac lost. Badly. Get over it.

I'm not a Mac user at the moment, but I am a Firefox user. The fact that you need to face up to is that if you allow/enable/support use of proprietary formats in the place of open standards, you are cutting your own throat.

Open standards are anathema to Microsoft. Being a good capitalist, they want to be able to charge a tax to every internet transaction. The existence of the Mac, and Firefox, and Linux keeps your price lower. I don't care if you choose to use Windows, it makes sense for lots of people doing lots of things. Just don't enable Microsoft to its monopoly to the internet.

This is not idle whining.

Posted by: Doctor Jay on March 1, 2006 at 4:01 PM | PERMALINK

Well I was mainly kidding about the first argument, and mainly saying that the second argument sounds a similar refrain to one I hear all the time.... But what are the market share arguments they make if not comparative body counts? The Mac Insurgency is in its last throes! Firefox users are deadenders! The Republicans won, decisively, now get over it you sore-loserman!

Teece, Doctor Jay, et. al., are absolutely correct. I have never owned a Mac, but I do own lots of non Windows devices and I would like to enjoy a future with non-DRMd, non-proprietary media.

Posted by: jerry on March 1, 2006 at 4:07 PM | PERMALINK
Just about any application functionality on a PC exists on a Mac, there's tons of software, file formats are often completely portable.

I have several regular uses for which I need (or strongly prefer to--when I have to use a particular application at the office, I'd rather not use the mind-space to learn two different applications for that function) particular applications, not similar functionality, and file formats are, all too often, not completely portable (the worst being the ones that are supposed to be, but aren't, quite -- I ran into some problems with Word and OOo 1.x in that regard.) And, of course, then there are my games...

But, I mean, if I was starting my own business, unless there was a mission critical app whose functionality I couldn't fill on Mac OS, I'd probably want to standardize on Macs for the desktop.


Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

We use nothing but Macs at home, but even we get tired of the predictable Mac-user whining. Atrios's post made me smile.

Posted by: Patrick Nielsen Hayden on March 1, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

The definitive word on this subject: http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20021126

Posted by: Cain on March 1, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

When MS buys (into?) a media outlet, brazenly affixes it's name to the network's brand name, and dictates (probably) the content of the network and (certainly) the methods of delivery of that content, sacrificing audience for corporate interests, that's bad business and bad media. And when there seems to be no economic, political, or social price for that behavior, when instead, it forms a self-reinforcing juggernaut of self-serving advertainment and nag/spy/bloatware, that's scary. And it should be stopped.

See how easy that was? It's absolutely correct, something Atrios and Drum would happily agree with (or at least consider) (or at the very least, not post "I don't care" about). All I did was avoid using the words "Mac", "Firefox", "PC", "Iraq", or "deserves every shred of scorn, derision, and contempt that is levelled at them".

One issue is: corporate control over media and market
---certainly true.
---righteous anger is warranted.

The other issue is: Mac is better than PC
---certainly true (in many ways).
---righteous anger is silly.

Posted by: brent on March 1, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, Kevin. Very Republican of you. Very Marie Antoinette.

Posted by: Stuart on March 1, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

It seems NO ONE grasped the simple meaning of the phrase "The Mac/Windows wars are over. Mac Lost."

I'll simplify it further: Virtually no one buys Macs. (Yes, I'm sure you enjoy YOURS. I didn't say they don't make Macs anymore. I have one in the office next to me, for Pete's sake). You take 100 people buying PCs, and what --95+ of them will be buying a machine that's going to end up running Windows.

That isn't going to change. Anyone who still has hopes of Macs ever being the choice of more than a miniscule fraction of the PC market is dreaming. While someone will ultimately dethrone Windows, it isn't going to be Mac OS.

So all the "Get a Mac" whining is the just pointless. People aren't going to get a Mac, and acting like assholes and jerks about it surely isn't going to shift boxes. After listening to the horde of "Get a Mac" responses -- then AND now -- towards people with spyware problems (hell, get Firefox would have been a better and more useless suggestion) pretty much just ensures I'd never touch a Mac in my life.

I wouldn't want to be forced to associate with such assholes.

I happily use an iPod. I love the thing. I prefer Unix to Windows -- but I use the latter at home. I've got no real attachment to Bill Gates, Windows, IE, or some objection to open source software.

Hell, I don't even think Macs suck. I think a lot of their internet PROMOTERS are jackasses. Hell, I admit I don't even understand you guys. I don't fucking love Windows -- I don't care. Windows it there to run the fucking software I DO care about.

I realize some of you have some sort of weird fetish towards Macs and the Mac OS -- whatever floats your boats, dude. However, don't project that on the rest of the world.

We use Windows because it's what we use at work, it's what we're used to, and it pretty much runs ALL the software we plan to run. Other than that -- we don't CARE.

I don't want a fucking Mac. If I wanted "Stability and security" I'd install BSD or Red Hat. I want something that'll run the programs and apps I want without me having to find emulators or shop speciality stores. That means Windows -- not Mac, no matter how big a boner you get when OS X boots up, mmkay?

Posted by: Morat on March 1, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

Thank me for the recent surge in Mac viruses. Maybe as your system becomes more popular and dumbed down, you will start to know what it's like to have a really user friendly and easy system.

Posted by: GOD on March 1, 2006 at 4:15 PM | PERMALINK

WTF! I am an avid reader of this column, and Kevin's endorsement of the sophmoric Mac baiting by Atrios is extremely dissapointing because of its bad taste and poor judgement.

Posted by: theFont on March 1, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

We use nothing but Macs at home, but even we get tired of the predictable Mac-user whining.

It'd be neat if that was actually the root of this. *sigh,* it's not. So many folks so ignorant of they medium the use and love.

Morat: you have an insane chip on your shoulder, and you're bordering on incoherent. You can use Windows or Mac or BeOs all you want, just relax. Well, you can use whatever software you choose unless you want to see MSNBC video content...

Posted by: teece on March 1, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

Morat is a fucking psycho.

Posted by: Super Grover on March 1, 2006 at 4:37 PM | PERMALINK

Morat, Mac users don't want *everyone* to buy a Mac - just the folks whose welfare we care about.

I guess I also take issue with your gloomy portrayal of the Macintosh's future. For many years - before Wintel was announced as the "winner" of the PC war - I often actively encouraged people to buy Macintoshes. After a while though, particularly as Apple's fortunes declined in the late 90s, I came to regard my own affection for the machine as - well, if not a fetish then certainly a losing proposition in the long haul, and I decided just to keep my mouth shut when people would get excited about their new Gateway loaded up with Windows ME. Learning a new OS is hard, you know? And people liked to have at home what they had at work.

Things changed markedly a year or two after Apple introduced OS X. Not only was the OS *extremely* stable but it offered substantially greater Windows / Macintosh interoperability (especially once MS Office came out for OS X). Since then I can't count the number of friends and acquaintances who've just become fed *up* with spyware, adware, OS reinstalls, trojans, viruses and the like and who turned - without any word on my part - to Apple.

Well, I say I "can't count them" but it's probably about 2 dozen. Which on the one hand isn't a lot but on the other is two dozen people within my own smallish sphere of acquaintances who once owned Windows machines and say they're never going back.

OS X will probably never be the dominant personal computer OS in the world but my own experience is that more and more people are coming to realize that there are perfectly viable alternatives to Windows - and I expect Apple's market share to rise in the coming years.

Posted by: John on March 1, 2006 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINK

We use Windows because it's what we use at work, it's what we're used to, and it pretty much runs ALL the software we plan to run. Posted by: Morat on March 1, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

It also runs ALL the software you don't plan to run.

Other than that -- we don't CARE.

And that's the problem. You don't CARE that when you purchase Microsoft products, you're supporting a convicted monopolist, and continuing their undeserved market dominance. You're not making a sound choice as an informed consumer, you're taking the easy and ignorant way out.

You don't CARE that when your insecurely configured Windows computer gets infected with a trojan, your computer becomes a willing host for infecting other people's machines.

You don't CARE that every Windows customer is a reason for an independent software vendor (or web service provider) to ignore alternate platforms.

I don't want a fucking Mac. If I wanted "Stability and security" I'd install BSD or Red Hat.

Yes. You made that clear.

Responsible computing is not a priority for you. You appear to believe that ease of use (in finding software) is a priority, yet you probably have not compared actual ease of use between things like, configuring a Macintosh firewall, and configuring a Windows firewall, or editing video and producing a home DVD on a Macintosh, or the equivalent task on a Windows machine.

Your ease-of-use gripes are limited to the Interface of the software sales aisle at Best Buy or WalMart.

In 5-10 years, when Microsoft's DRM suck-job to the RIAA and MPAA comes into full force, and you're whining to someone that your HDMI monitor won't play premium HD-DVD content because the MPAA revoked the encryption key - you'll have only yourself and your ignorant ilk to blame for putting into place and maintaining an industry monopoly that allowed them to dictate standards to the point where putting a disk into your system and watching a movie in HD is not possible without buying a new monitor. See how easy your computing life is then. Lazy consumerism is fucking making it happen.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 1, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

Drum, read the comments, search for mine.

Same goes to the Washington Monthly, the day AOL begins charging for email, the day Kos blocks AOL users, I stop reading WashingtonMonthly.com

It's not much, won't affect you

But the issue is MSNBC, and their partner MS, are using a version of WMP that excludes anyone but Windows users.

You don't care? That's good by you? There's no technical reason this has to be, but you're fine anyway?

Not asking you to get a Mac, asking you to care about monopoly, idiot.

Screw you, moron.

Posted by: lettuce on March 1, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINK

I think Atrios is trying to say:

Dear Bushlickers

Go fuck yourself.

Posted by: lib on March 1, 2006 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

FYI: I don't know about this particular movie, but in the past, I've been able to get at MSNBC content on my Mac by using View Source, looking for the href link to the media file, entering the URL for the file into the browser, letting it load, doing a file-save as to my user directory, then playing it in VideoLan Client, (I hear MPlayer is good at playing various wmp codecs, but I find it to be unstable as hell).

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 1, 2006 at 5:43 PM | PERMALINK

I fully endorse the pithy view expressed by Atrios

Actually, he sounds pithed off.

Posted by: frankly0 on March 1, 2006 at 6:05 PM | PERMALINK

I am a z80 slave on an Altos multi-user system with a 5mb HDD running MP/M. Multiplan is still the best application ever designed for micro-computers.

Posted by: on March 1, 2006 at 6:08 PM | PERMALINK

The only thing that will get you in more trouble than printing cartoons of Muhammad is showing any lack of respect for Apple. Much more trouble.

Posted by: JS on March 1, 2006 at 6:09 PM | PERMALINK

"The only thing that will get you in more trouble than printing cartoons of Muhammad is showing any lack of respect for Apple. Much more trouble."

I dunno, the PC boosters on this thread sound much closer to rioting than the Mac people.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 1, 2006 at 6:24 PM | PERMALINK

OMG! Civil war has broken out in the left blogosphere.

Posted by: BroD on March 1, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

On Kevin's plea for help with his mom's machine:

Let's say my old Dodge Intrepid develops a leak in its oil pan. And I ask people for advice on how to deal with it.

"Junk that POS Dodge and buy a Toyota" is not a helpful answer.

Posted by: BruceK on March 1, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINK

Here's why I don't care that MSNBC is locking out users of non-Windows software from viewing its video content... sing it with me:

MSNBC SUCKS!

If they want to make it impossible for their customers to get advertising impressions onto the eyeballs of Mac users, and they're will to spring the extra lucre to do it, hey more fncking power to them. You go, girl.

"Can we help you find ways to do that with more of your lame website?" I say.

I see there are Mac users who like MSNBC, and they're peeved enough about being locked out that they're trying to bulldoze Atrios and Kevin into not linking there. I have news for those Mac users: nobody cares. You and MSNBC can both go piss up a rope.

If MSNBC content were good enough, then there would be an array of proxy servers on the Internet that would let you shovel that happy horseshit down your gullet to your heart's content no matter what MSNBC wants to do to prevent you from seeing it. It isn't; there aren't; next problem, please.

Posted by: anonymous @ 17/24 subnet on March 1, 2006 at 6:58 PM | PERMALINK

Geez,

I'm sorry, but in my office, its hardware that drives our computer purchases. Specifically, in the wide format market, unless you want to be stuck with crappy HP's, you need to be on a PC.

Most Wide format plotters dont support Mac.
Most Wide format plotters don't support *nix.

We push out lots of large pages (think 18x24 or larger) if we were limited to macintosh, we'd be out of business.

simple as that.

Posted by: senrik on March 1, 2006 at 6:58 PM | PERMALINK

Both this thread and the one at Atrios puzzle me. These two bloggers deliberately picked a fight with Mac users. But we're the rude ones? Because some of us reacted to being provoked?

I hear stories about rude or pushy Mac users but in these two threads the rude and pushy ones are using that other system. And Morat is on the verge of a seizure.

Posted by: EmmaAnne on March 1, 2006 at 6:58 PM | PERMALINK

oops. 17/8, not 17/24. i need more coffee.

Posted by: anonymous @ 17/8 subnet on March 1, 2006 at 7:04 PM | PERMALINK

EmmaAnne: Both this thread and the one at Atrios puzzle me. These two bloggers deliberately picked a fight with Mac users. But we're the rude ones? Because some of us reacted to being provoked?

Yeah, this has always surprised me. I'm like WTF?! Whatever...

Personally, I have both a Mac and a PC for web design work. I'm not gonna say, which I prefer. LOL!

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 1, 2006 at 7:19 PM | PERMALINK

Geez folks

There are Fords & Porsches

There is Windows & Macintosh

Life goes on

Get a life

"...Churches have given us great treasures. Whether that pays for the harm they have done is another matter." - Daniel C. Dennett

Posted by: daCascadian on March 1, 2006 at 7:53 PM | PERMALINK

I bought a Mac last year, and I've come to hate it. It freezes up a lot, I find OS X to be completely non-intuitive to use, it frequently snafu's up my printing, and I find the lack of software for the things I want to do to be frustrating. I will never buy one again.

Posted by: grapeshot on March 1, 2006 at 8:18 PM | PERMALINK

Both this thread and the one at Atrios puzzle me. These two bloggers deliberately picked a fight with Mac users. But we're the rude ones? Because some of us reacted to being provoked?

Kevin and Atrios are reacting to emails that the rest of us haven't seen which makes it look like they are picking a fight. Apparently, they don't like being told what they can or can't link to. The underlying point being made is that if they find a video on MSNBC that they think is worth watching they should refrain from linking to it because it might offend the sensibilities of some Mac users. Atrios's point is that this their hobby-horse not his. They are reacting pretty the same way you would if someone came up to you at a restaurant while you were eating a steak and told you that you shouldn't eat meat.

Posted by: Nagual Haven on March 1, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK
    On Kevin's plea for help with his mom's machine:

    Let's say my old Dodge Intrepid develops a leak in its oil pan. And I ask people for advice on how to deal with it.

    "Junk that POS Dodge and buy a Toyota" is not a helpful answer.

Are you seriously suggesting that a totally spyware-laden, frozen computer is comparable to a car with an oil leak? No way. (Go back and read Kevin's post if you don't remember how bad he made it sound.)

Here's a better analogy: Let's say someone secretly dumped five pounds of sugar in your gas tank and replaced your transmission oil with molasses. And let's say you drove the car all unknowing until it totally shut down. What would the mechanic say?

Junk that POS Yugo and buy a Toyota.

Posted by: Oregonian on March 1, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

If you work in regular ol' business, you won't see a Mac. So if they're better, it doesn't matter. Buying a Mac for home use doesn't make since if you have to use IBM compatible either.

Posted by: Psyberian on March 1, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK
Kevin and Atrios are reacting to emails that the rest of us haven't seen which makes it look like they are picking a fight.

Yeah, well that's a lesson on why you respond to private emails in private, and to public comments in public, unless you (a) want to look like an ass, and/or (b) post what you are responding to.

Though, frankly, anyone who points their audience to web resource and then doesn't care that a significant portion of their audience can't access it is, IMO, in fact an ass.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 1, 2006 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

PCs are the Republicans of the computer world.

Posted by: Deron Bauman on March 1, 2006 at 9:51 PM | PERMALINK

I bought a Mac last year, and I've come to hate it. It freezes up a lot, I find OS X to be completely non-intuitive to use, it frequently snafu's up my printing, and I find the lack of software for the things I want to do to be frustrating. I will never buy one again. - grapeshot

Sorry to hear it, and somewhat perplexed. If I had Remote Desktop I would ask to dial in and help you fix the problem but I never had the need to buy it. You might download System Optimizer X 474 and run all of the functions. Note: if you run the cache cleaner, while it will fix many odd behavioral problems, it will set something in the system where when you open up say a Photoshop document the system thinks you are opening Photoshop for the first time. It's a petty annoyance but the trade off should be a better running system.

In all my years on Macs I have never had one act as poorly as the one you describe.

Posted by: Eric Paulsen on March 1, 2006 at 11:03 PM | PERMALINK

I bought a Mac last year, and I've come to hate it. It freezes up a lot, I find OS X to be completely non-intuitive to use, it frequently snafu's up my printing, and I find the lack of software for the things I want to do to be frustrating. I will never buy one again.

That's bizarre. Does it freeze in response to a particular program? Printing problems are also generally program specific and there could be updates or work-arounds that fix both. I've found the current operating system quite stable and run something like 200 programs through aqua and x-windows. You have to know a little, be able to use google, and have patience.

There are lemons out there and you need to know enough to identify it before your warranty runs out.

If you don't have a lot of experience with computers I recommend getting one for which you have the most local technical support. I trouble shoot apple computers for about 10 relatives. If I wasn't around some of these people would be completely lost and would be better off with a MS PC. Having a computer that's familiar to the most convenient expert is always the best choice. Most people don't have the time to learn two operating systems.

BTW -- If you hate OS X there are a lot of features in OS X that will show up in the next windows operating system. You'll get all frustrated all over again.

Posted by: B on March 2, 2006 at 2:05 AM | PERMALINK

Mine was an odd experience compared to yours. I went to Atios', saw nothing onscreen ( Using Firefox ), clicked a link to Salon, went in and saw a spoof on how MS would market iPods if they made them. The Sboleizer said "Ouch!Ouch!" in reference to the ad. I snorted : funny stuff.
For those with no respect for PCs, I'm running a custom job with matched components assembled as a one-off. I'll try to console myself with an inferior product - snort.

Posted by: opit on March 2, 2006 at 2:21 AM | PERMALINK

Man, I thought the dude was saying country music sucks and Fleetwood Mac is the shit. Especially the early Peter Green years and the magical 70s period with Lindsay, Stevie, and Christine.

Posted by: Jimm on March 2, 2006 at 2:38 AM | PERMALINK

"I realize some of you have some sort of weird fetish towards Macs and the Mac OS -- whatever floats your boats, dude. However, don't project that on the rest of the world."

Hello? I believe it's the PC users who are projecting "on the rest of the world." "Mac lost," remember?

The Mac users here (except one, who is truly exceptional)are essentially saying: "We have to use PCs whether we like it or not, and our Macs are much better." If you don't care about having a better machine, that's your business, but don't tell me I can't tell chicken shit from chicken salad.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 2, 2006 at 8:47 AM | PERMALINK

Ace, honey -- you act like I CARE. I don't. I don't. Hell, you guys are acting like I love my PC -- I don't. I couldn't give two shits about what OS I'm running.

I don't use a personal computer for the OS. I use it for applications -- like everyone else. Except, apparently, you guys.

So back to the point: If you divided up all the relevant applications (the only reason to USE a computer in the first place) you've have three piles.

1) Stuff that runs on Windows PCs only.
2) Stuff that runs on Macs only.
3) Stuff that runs on both.

Pile 3 is the biggest. Pile 1 is the second biggest. Pile 2 is damn small.

So unless you're doing the few things that Mac software is considerably better at, all the incentives are on the "PC" side.

That's really what gets me about these conversations. You Mac guys seem to think your OS is the end-all and be-all of computing -- rather than the applications.

Posted by: Morat on March 2, 2006 at 10:53 AM | PERMALINK

Morat, darling, changing the subject doesn't change the fact that the Mac OS, because it is, effectively, NOT susceptible to the same kind of terrorism from hackers as a PC, is a superior OS for the computer user.

For someone who doesn't "CARE," you have used up a lot of energy on this thread.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 2, 2006 at 11:01 AM | PERMALINK

Just two days ago I got a phone call from my brother-in-law, who reported that his wife's Dell had become so cluttered with adware and the like that just launching Word meant pouring another cup of coffee - he's reasonably tech-savvy and capable of fixing the problem, again, but he just doesn't want to be bothered any more. He asked my advice about which Macintosh he should investigate as a replacement, and I expect them to close a deal in the next couple of days.

This one example (which I don't think is unusual) pretty well puts the lie to the assertions that for Pile 3 people, all the incentives are on the PC side and that the OS is irrelevant.

Posted by: John on March 2, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

I hope you get done not caring soon, Morat. All that high-energy apathy of yours is wearing me out.

Posted by: shortstop on March 2, 2006 at 1:11 PM | PERMALINK

Has anyone seen the mouse for my Amiga?

Posted by: Rick @ s and g on March 2, 2006 at 1:36 PM | PERMALINK

Rick @ s and g writes: "Has anyone seen the mouse for my Amiga?"

Yeah. I stole it. Because my Amiga doesn't have any USB ports, and I can't just go down to the store and buy a new one on my way back from the grocery store, I had to break into your house and rob you of yours. Sorry about that.

Maybe you can steal one from someone else. (Don't try to steal yours back from me. It's well guarded and not where you'd think to look.)

Posted by: s9 on March 2, 2006 at 3:07 PM | PERMALINK

So unless you're doing the few things that Mac software is considerably better at, all the incentives are on the "PC" side.

Like graphic arts, music, Unix-y stuff, sciences (Mac are quite popular in bioinformatics), and so on.

That and they work fine for email/browsing/writing/balancing checkbooks/standard home user tasks as well.

The amount of stuff you can't do on a Mac is fairly small...and oddly enough, in terms of productivity software, it mostly revolves around, surprise surprise, Microsoft products (Access, Visio, VB, C#, Visual Studio). In terms of open-source stuff, really...Macs do it all, pretty much, even for webdev stuff (built-in Apache, easy to get some form of SQL, stuff like Ruby and Python).

That, and games- to which my response usually is "buy a console that's dedicated to it, since your oobercomputer with all the hot cutting edge stuff will be outdated 5 minutes after you leave the store".

I would certainly agree that a Mac's not for you if you spend a zillion hours a day in Access or Visio, or whatever Windows app is critical for your workflow. That being said, many people find the Apple platform HELPS their workflow- who the hell are you to mock them?

Posted by: eponymous coward on March 2, 2006 at 3:50 PM | PERMALINK

As the inventor of SKYPIX, the first fully interactive graphics and sound protocol back in 1987, I've heard this argument for twenty years.

Here are the facts.

MSNBC is in the wrong, my computer-ignorant famous bloggers, and you are shaming yourself with your ignorance and prejudice. BUT....

Apple users are freakin' obnoxious. "Get a Mac", indeed.

There, pissed offf everyone. Fair and balanced.

Posted by: Sundog on March 2, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, Sundog, the facts have changed just a teeny bit since 1987.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 2, 2006 at 7:26 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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