I have been voting against McCain ever since he carptetbagged into my state to take John Rhodes' Congressional seat. He is a right wing nut.

Who cares?

I have a lot of reasons for wishing that liberals would stop falling for McCain's "straight talk" schtick, . . .

Who are these "liberals"? As I've posted here before, he's either insane or a complete sleaze. Nothing else explains his lickspittle attitude towards the Bush administration. I don't know any real liberals that have any thing good to say about him.

The "liberals" that give him the time of day are a handful of career politicians masquerading as Democrats.

The MSM loves him, though, so any attempt to portray as just another politician is going to have to get throught "the filter." You can bet the way Bush emasculated him in 2000 will not be used to indicate his weaknesses as a candidate and a human being.

And being captured and tortured by the enemy does not make you a "hero." It makes you a victim.

I have a lot of reasons for wishing that liberals would stop falling for McCain's "straight talk" schtick, and this is one of them: even on the issues where he's one of the good guys, he caves in too often to have much of an impact.

EXACTLY!

While McCain is not an incarnation of Jesus, like Good King George, once Al, Cheney, and I accept the fact that McCain is our best chance to Feel Manly by having poor people sent to blow up brown people, we'll get on board. Soon, McCain will also be able to Do No Wrong!

And he will win, Dems. Viva Diebold!

Antarctic Ice Melting at Surprisingly Rapid Rate

Crazy....

Laws you can't enforce in court.

Freedom Is On The March !!

McCain will not be president. He's losing credibility, and he's probably not healthy enough either. I just don't see him making it. Of course, he could prove me wrong.

I have a lot of reasons for wishing that liberals would stop falling for McCain's "straight talk" schtick, and this is one of them: even on the issues where he's one of the good guys, he caves in too often to have much of an impact.

I disagree. They aren't issues where he is one of the good guys. He's issue where he pretends to be one of the good guys so that, as the Republican "good guy" challenging the "bad guys" he'll get lots of maneuvering room from the other "good guys", which he then exploits to strategically cave in and make sure the "bad guys" are protected.

The amazing thing is people keep falling for it.

If I remember correctly, that jurisdiction provision was stuck in there by Lindsey Graham, the McCain wannabe from South Carolina. McCain was ostensibly against it, but gave in so the legislation would pass. Nonetheless, it's disheartening that legislation ostensibly meant to prohibit torture is currently taken by the administration as a green light to engage in it.

McCain is a major league prick.

And this is one of the web's best exposing posts.

At the very least... scroll down and look at the children that McCain help bring into the world.

He is quite the progenitor ain't he?

Yep...
He is part prick and part psychopath...

In short:
He's got all the ingredients to make a great president.

I wonder how much money he got from Charlie Keating.

Unfortunately some Democrats do fall for the McCain schtick. Especially Henry Jackson liberals.

For example, Mickey Kaus, or many of my friends.

Anyone who doesn't think McCain will peel off a lot of conservative Democratic votes is out of touch.

McCain is by far the strongest candidate the Republicans can field in the general election. He would be verrry hard to beat.

Yeah Kevin! Excellent point.

The major pundits love McCain. He's the most asked for guest on the Sunday blabfests.

But he's a hard core conservative. He was on the take in the Keating Scandal. He was a huge supporter of the Iraq adventure. And of course, he went all the way with Team Bush in 2004.

BUT - McCain's got sky high approval ratings (mainly because the press puffed him, methinks.) And the GOP seem to be moving behind him. The machine appears to be realized he's there best (and maybe only bet) for 2006 and 2008. They don't have anyone else with credibility and stature. (Guiliani has too many skeletons in plain sight.)

And these advantages will stay in place if the Democrats don't start knocking the halo off McCain. You can see the shine coming off Lieberman's halo right now as progressives start beating on him. A similar sustained drive could have similar effects on McCain.

Recommendations:
1) Recognize that McCain is more-or-less the GOP leader right now.
2) Opinion makers need to make sure that they start scraping off McCain's halo (like this, thanks again Kevin.)
3) Democrats need to make a pact: no one say a nice word about the leader of the opposition. And challenge him hard.

Come 2008, it's going to be very interesting to see how successful McCain can possibly be in removing the stench of Republicanism from his slippery hide. I'm guessing it's going to be a lot harder than people imagine.

2008 is not going to be Republican friendly, any way you look at it, what with the systematic failures all around by every last redoubt of Republican control. And who's going to seem less the Republican, McCain, or his Democratic opponent?

A law you can't enforce in court is hardly much of a 'law' is it?

Come 2008, it's going to be very interesting to see how successful McCain can possibly be in removing the stench of Republicanism from his slippery hide.

Four words: Birthday cake with George.

Will we get smart and use it at every opportunity?

Damn right.

Yeah, McCain has some skeletons...

Trust us. We know.

FYI - Al wears Depends. Hee-hee.

I couldn't agree more: McCain is phenomenally successful at portraying himself as somehow above politics, but he's totally right-wing. This is ominous for 2008. My Dem voting Korean war vet brother-in-law says, "if McCain runs, I'll vote for him regardless of his views". We better think seriously about running Wesley Clark if we want a shot at the presidency in 2008. Even then we better get ready to throw some dirt.

At one point in time I would have voted for McCain or Powell...but not anymore! And, while I'm at it, i will not for Hillary either! cleve

Now, wouldn't really meaning it and standing up to Bush be better play for Presidential ambitions? Maybe it's just a character flaw... anyone who would have any respect or regard for the team that smeared and derailed his earlier campaign...

Four words: Birthday cake with George

Better yet, eight words:

Birthday cake with George while New Orleans drowns

KD: I have a lot of reasons for wishing that liberals would stop falling for McCain's "straight talk" schtick...

Amen to that! I fell for it way back in 2004 until McCain revealed himself to be the Bushlicker that he truly is. He's an ambitious whore though not in the Jeff Gannon male prostitute-y way.

Drum says:

"He's certainly mastered the art of sounding reasonable, but it's only an inch deep. Underneath, he's just a standard issue right wing politician. Caveat emptor."

In that way, he is a mirror image of Hillary, save that Hillary is a bit less talented at doing it.

"if McCain runs, I'll vote for him regardless of his views"

Gah! I hate it when people say stuff like that. Makes me want to shake them.

I was entertaining the delusional hope that McCain would sign on with Kerry in '04, to form a national unity ticket. Since then it's become clear that McCain's endless posturing would never have allowed it.

I'm hopeful that his chances for the White House are a lot less than the talk show hosts seem to believe.

This is more political obfuscation. Everyone knows what the law is supposed to be about -- America shouldn't torture. But as with everything the administration does, it's say one thing while doing the opposite -- the opposite being something a majority of Americans are against, which is why they lie. For McCain to be disingenuous just shows he's another politician with questionable character.

In that way, he is a mirror image of Hillary, save that Hillary is a bit less talented at doing it. Posted by: Mike

Hardly. During her short tenure in the Senate she's actually shown she stands for nothing.

I hate to post observations of the obvious, but the thread on this post of Kevin's has an unusual amount of juvenile, stupid comments even for this site. There are junior high school phys ed classes capable of a more elevated discussion.

So Zathras, since you're so deep, why don't you post your astute observations rather than adding to the juvenile comments?

If you need reminding that McCain is a vicious slimeball, read about his astoundingly unethical character assassination of one of the witnesses against John Tower.

Some old school marm

wandered in to harumph

about elevating the discussion

but didn't.

I never understood the McCain craze either. I have mixed feelings about McCain the Senator, but I definitely do not like McCain the presidential aspirant...and he's been campaigning for at least 7 years now.

Speaking of bogus legislation, three out of four Senate Dems rolled over and voted for the renewal of the Patriot Act today. My own senators were among the herd. As was Kerry. As was Hillary. Also today, Dems on the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee helped spike a congressional ethics reform.

After bankruptcy "reform", I'd decided that I wouldn't be writing any more campaign contribution checks to a major party candidate. Now I'm finding it more and more difficult to believe that I should even bother leaving the house on election day. Don't get me wrong, I loathe everything the current GOP stands for. But the only thing the Dems seem capable of is betrayal.

You know, it would be a very interesting thing to see how often McCain actually voted against the party line.

I'm guessing it's going to be in fact just about never -- certainly all the important votes I can recollect found McCain voting standard Republican.

And he's not in any way responsible for the way the Republican Party has fucked up while controlling Congress? How might that work?

According to Bush, McCain's bill wasn't worth the toilet paper it was written on......If John runs for president, his lack of real influence and his williness to be patsy for this criminal administration should be mentioned over and over again.

If Imus gets warm for McCain's form, it can't be good.

sglover wrote: three out of four Senate Dems rolled over and voted for the renewal of the Patriot Act today. My own senators were among the herd. As was Kerry. As was Hillary. Also today, Dems on the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee helped spike a congressional ethics reform [...] But the only thing the Dems seem capable of is betrayal.

www.gp.org

I've been a registered Democrat since 1972. I contributed donated money and work to Dennis Kucinich's presidential primary campaign in 2004, inspired by his vision of building a progressive political movement within the Democratic Party. I saw how the Democratic establishment responded (ignore, ridicule, marginalize, and ignore some more) to Kucinich's platform of peace, economic justice, civil liberties and ecological sanity. I changed my voter registration to Green last year.

Secular-

Kucinich is a dork. That is a fact, and no matter what he sells it will not resonate with shallow Americana.

We need a progressive Dem that has the balls of Kucinich and the appeal of Clinton. Dean was the ticket, but you see how that turned out.

We are doomed.

"The law says you can't torture detainees at Guantanamo, but it also says you can't enforce that law in the courts."

That's some catch, that Catch-22.

I have no respect for McCain's tushy-wiggling for the Bush administration. He's a whore. I registered Republican in 2000, just so I could vote for him. What a disappointment - but looking back, I'm glad I know more about him now than I did in 2000. Bush or McCain? What a terrible choice.

Honestly, as much as Hillary has said "no" and Condi has said "no" - I'm pretty sure that 08 is going to be Hillary vs. Condi. (and it will be decided by Alito. . . ).

>>Four words: Birthday cake with George

>Better yet, eight words:

>Birthday cake with George while New Orleans drowns

How about we up the ante on this?

Imagine Condi (the repugs next best choice) running for President...

How many of you are willing---like me---to give up at least half a paycheck for an ad showing her buying spiked high heels in NYC while New Orleans drowns?

PS...

Q: And where was Dick?
A: On vacation.

Double PS...

Remember the Alamo: These are the same fuckers that destroyed Gore's reputation. Ergo: Show no fucking mercy.

We are doomed.
Posted by: Chris on March 3, 2006 at 8:06 PM | PERMALINK

Indeed.

How many of you are willing---like me---to give up at least half a paycheck for an ad showing her buying spiked high heels in NYC while New Orleans drowns?

Or an ad showing her saying "Osama bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside United States" playing over and over and over again....

But nah, Rice won't run. She doesn't have the personality for it -- remember, she's never held one elective office in her life. She's only ever advanced by attaching herself to powerful mentors and being appointed to positions by them.

In other news, the Japanese have successfully created gasoline from bullshit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060304/ap_on_sc/cow_dung_gasoline

Who would have guessed Republicans could be the secret to US energy independence?

Mr. Bush issued a presidential signing statement saying his administration would interpret the new law (mcpains bill) "in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the "unitary executive" branch.

Unitarry Execuutive powers,
Well hell if'n dat dunt skare da bahjeebies outta peeple ah dunt kno whut will

n other news, the Japanese have successfully created gasoline from bullshit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060304/ap_on_sc/cow_dung_gasoline

Who would have guessed Republicans could be the secret to US energy independence?
Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 3, 2006 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

sheet ol terdblossom gonna bee richr'n hellahburton

Bush or McCain? What a terrible choice.

Oh it's much worse that that. It's Bush AND McCain. Big John has been exceptionally shrewd in courting conservatives. His vote for tax cuts was brilliant. His help in getting Roberts and Alito o the bench as well as janice rodgers brown and Priscilla Owens. His consistently strong positions on lower spending. Even his much hated campaign finance reform can be forgiven:

1) It's been better for the GOP. It brought Moveon.org and George soros into the game and they've been disasters. The GOP got the SBVs and they probably defeated kerry.

2) McCain appointed alito and Roberts and they'll roll back the bill anyway.

McCain is perfectly positioned for 2008. Even those conservatives still pissed at John will see Hillary on the other side. That makes voting for John a duty.

2001 - 2016 Bush - McCain.

McCain sometimes (calculatedly) pulls the veil back from his contempt for Bush. But when it counts he's right up there on the podium shoving ``9-11'' into every other sentence to keep Bush in the White House and rubberstamping the asses Bush nominates for the Supreme Court.

How about an ad that just shows Bush sitting there, stone silent, during the Katrina briefing. No voice-over at all, until at the end the narrator says "George? What are you waiting for?"

Hey Wooten :)

Heh, just as I was about to offer one summarizing comment before I go off to do fun things on a Friday night, who should show up but my favorite (well, one of my favorite) wingers ...

I honestly think the CW is wrong here, for several reasons. First is that McCain is simply too old, and he's got a whopping litany of health issues that have followed him back from the Hanoi Hilton. Modern medicine's a wonderful thing, but a presidential campaign is incredibly gruelling -- this won't be a Reagan cakewalk in '84. This sumbitch is going to be challenged at every turn.

McCain also has a Dean problem. The very thing that made both these candidates so fascinating for the press -- their outspokenness (I won't call it "hotheadedness" or any of the other nonsense perjoratives) -- also makes them extremely impolitic. Unike Bush who never apologizes, McCain invites the press corps and confabs about the etiology of one decision for hours ... it's a recipe guaranteed to produce damning quotes, gaffes, flashes of temper, etc.

The collorary is that McCain has a positively *immense* ego. This is part of why he loves palling around with the press -- he thinks every word he utters is of utmost importance. And what this will mean is that all the talk about his tactically "brilliant" cozying up to Bush and the Bush base really isn't more than skin deep. McCain knows he needs these people, but he is not *of* these people. He actually went to Vietnam -- most of the GOP machinery didn't. McCain has religious airs, but he's a Catholic (IIRC), not a Prot fundie. He truly feels he's better than these people, more honorable, from a different universe. He needs to bond with this base, and my guess is he just won't be constitutionally able to when a more congenially social conservative gets in like George Allen. The social conservatives, of course, have no qualms against using the sleaziest kinds of attack politics. If not Rove and/or Reed, then certainly their acolytes will be gunning for John in the primaries.

Plus I honestly don't think Hil's going to run. Maybe I'm wrong; I'm certainly rooting for a strong GOP challenger to emerge in the Senate race, just to take some sheen off ... but she's a horrible speaker and has no real charisma. I think, being married to the virtuoso Democrat of the 20th century has rendered this apparent to her. Speaking after Bill at the CSC funeral made it painfully obvious to all. Hil's a great senator, an amazing grasp of detail, fantastic retail politics ... but I just don't see her cutting a rug on the national stage.

Again, I'm far less comfortable about this prediction than I am about McCain not running. He's a pure media creation and the media deflates as quickly as it inflates ...

Bob

Big John has been exceptionally shrewd in courting conservatives. His vote for tax cuts was brilliant. Posted by:rdw

"I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who need tax relief."--John McCain, May 2001
"He voted against tax cuts in 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2005, and this year he's for the tax cuts in the reconciliation bill. It looks like he did it for political reasons."
--Grover Norquist, on McCain’s conversion, now

McCain is more dangerous than the bushcriminal because he is smarter - he actiually does things on purpose versus bush's just doing what he feels like at the moment then lying about it as needed.

"He voted against tax cuts in 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2005, and this year he's for the tax cuts in the reconciliation bill. It looks like he did it for political reasons."

Of course he did it for political reasons. His mistake in 2000 was in thinking he could win a GOP nomination without conservatives. He's learned.

He can easily defend his support for this extension because this is for the capital gains and investment incentives which in fact have paid for themselves. I suspect he'll also support a continuation of the marginal rate cuts because the economic performance since 2003 has been so powerful and tax collections are catching up. 2005 was a fabulous year, I think tax receipts were up 15% and with very strong 1st Qtr GDP and so far a very good stock market performance 2006 has a terrific start for tax revenues.

McCain can easily say, "I'm not voting for tax cuts. I just not voting for a tax increase". This was almost a gimme.

Plus I honestly don't think Hil's going to run.

She is absolutely running. Everything she does is calibrated for the Presidency. Further, you can't stop her. She has the feminists and minorities in her pocket as well as NYS and CA.

McCain gets a 100% rating from the American Conservative Union.

When can we send out the attack dogs saying McCain married his wife for her money? Cindy is loaded as her daddy made millions selling crappy beer.

And let's rehash the secret black child story, that was a hoot in 2000.

rdw:

Here's my conspiracy theory du jour: The national GOP has been piddling around in NY working to sabotage/discourage/not encourage any strong candidate to emerge as a Senate challenger -- precisely to groom Hil for a knockout win, the better to coronate her for '08, as they see Hil as their dream opponent.

Bob

McCain also has a Dean problem

You take it too far. Dean is whacko. John has a temper but he's far shrewder than Dean. He's also been in the game more than anyone else. He's done 1,000 Russerts and 10,000 talk radio interviews with all types from Imus to Hewlett to Hannity and you name it. He's very polished.

He does have a huge ego but is it any worse than Kerry or Biden or Dean or Frist or Hillary? I actually think McCain does a better job of hiding his massive ego than most of them. You are correct about his temper but he's been good about that as well more recently.

McCain is very well respected among independents. He is an authentic hero (Not to get on about Kerry but presenting him as a hero was a serious mistake) who does not like to be called a hero. People love that. Independents like the fact he's very partisan and will compliment and get along with libs. McCain infuriated conservatives by saying kerry would make a fine President. If races are own in the 'middle' as everyone seems to ageee, Big John is in easy. They like John.

Liberals even like John. Kerry did every thing he could to get him in the race.

His only weak spot is Conservatives and he's had an amazing 6 month run. We are thrilled with Roberts and Alito. Better than we could have expected and John was a big help. Janice Rodgers Brown and Priscilla Owens will be stars and John helped there as well. Conservatives are furious with bush on spending and john has been strong there for a long time. McCain has been very good on iraq and security and is an authentic social conservative.

Campaign finance reform killed him in 2000 but is no longer an issue.

I don't see age as an issue at all. Reagan is by far the most beloved President since FDR so I don't know why you'd ever bring it up since that'll be the immediate comparison.

But be far his beggest edge is Hillary. John beats her easy. I personally am not a McCain fan. I like Geore Allen. But I am very impressed with McCains recent skill in changing his image and I want a GOP President. I want the person most likely to beat Hillary.

One other think about her. The Democratic bench sucks. I don't see a single decent candidate for VP let alone President. Edwards, Kerry and Biden are jokes. They are insulting. Edwards couldn't carry his own state. Biden has a bigger ego than McCain and is a babbling idiot. Warner from VA migh be decent but he doesn't seem to have a boatlaod of charisma either. I always thougth Bill Richardson was a decent guy but he got caught with a resume error and isn't a ball of fire either.

You don't have any competition for her.

To me, it's still the hypocrisy on the torture question that gets my goat.

McCain was tortured in Hanoi because North Vietnam, while a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, found a legalistic way not to apply them to US pilots. They said that since the US air war against North Vietnam was illegal, US pilots were "air pirates" rather than enemy soldiers - shades of "illegal combatants"! - and weren't protected under the Geneva Conventions.

That he can now endorse a similar legalistic justification for American torture baffles and repels me. I hope his old broken leg starts aching when he thinks about it, right at the spot where he says Vietnamese interrogators jumped on it.

Warner has got more charm and charisma that you give him credit for, rdw. Virgina is a mostly red state, and he carries that crowd well. He does the gun owner/good christian thing better than most dems ever could.

Gov. Schweitzer from Montana would be a drak horse pick as well.

they see Hil as their dream opponent.

True but they'd love to find a strong candidate.

1st off they'd love to force her to spend money. The fear now is she'll raise $80M an spend 3M. That $77M will let her start campaigning immediately.

2nd, you always want a strong candidate. Even a loss can be a stepping stone for a quality candidate. Assume she wins in 08. The Gov appoints a replacement until the next election. If the GOP candidate does a good job in losing they're set up in 2-yrs for another election.

The example now is PA and Lynn Swann. Rove can't lose. The GOP bench isn't deep and Rendell isa very savvy governor with all the advantages. Put Lynn in there and fine out if all the things that make him a good candidate on paper translate well in a campaign. "IF" he proves to be a good candidate he's got a solid shot at an upset.

If he loses but still does a nice job he's perfectly set up for 2010 when Rendell is term limited and Arlen spector will probably retire. Also, assuming he does a nice job in 06 he'll be the defacto party leader in 2008. McCain would love to visit PA 15 times and tour Pittsburg, Harrisburg, Altoona, Coatesville, Philly, etc., with Lynn Swann on his elbow.

I agree the GOP wants Hillary but they want a strong candidate to face her. Even if it's for grooming purposes. It isn't like the GOP is overwhelmed with great candidates in NY.

Plus Clark and Bredesen. Preferably on the same ticket. Smart, handsome ex-general and West Point instructor from Arkansas, paired with a pragmatic successful businessman with experience getting elected in a red state. Works for me!

He is an authentic hero (Not to get on about Kerry but presenting him as a hero was a serious mistake)

What makes him a hero? He was shot down on one of his first missions over Vietnam and spent the rest of the war sitting in a POW camp. He didn't talk, but neither did pretty much anyone else. He never did anything that saved fellow servicemembers from death or injury, and he never did anything particularly impressive in combat.

Ex-POWs and former Vietnamese interrogators agree that McCain brought a lot of the abusive treatment he endured on himself. He may have been the most obstreperous SOB in the Hanoi Hilton, and it's not clear that anything useful was accomplished by his antics. Pete Peterson, for example, never gave away any information or collaborated with Vietnamese attempts to get POWs to "admit their crimes" etc.; but he didn't go out of his way to provoke his captors either. Peterson's self-control led to better conditions for his fellow POWs. McCain's provocations just got himself and other treated worse, for no good reason.

John Kerry went out of his way to court danger on several occasions and saved the lives of a number of his crewmembers and other servicemen. He is a war hero. You may have been fooled by the insidious and filthy smears spread by the Swift Boat liars, but enough is enough - stop spreading the lies. The election is over, and there's really no need to continue slandering an American war hero.

He does the gun owner/good christian thing better than most dems ever could.

I haven't seen him much so I'll take your word for it. He'll have to catch lightening in a bottle to beat Hillary. She owns the feminist and how many non-feminists females will vote her in just because 'it's time'. I'd bet a substantial portion of liberal males would do as as well just to be PC. Add in a very strong showing among minorites (25% of the base) and she's very well set.

Are you going to get the lefties to go for Warner? I can't see it. These people still want Dean.

McCain's cockiness reminds me of another Republican member of congress, a former Vietnam fighter pilot war hero, one who accomplished a lot more than McCain ever did in combat - an ace, actually, who shot down a half dozen MiGs - and who had the typical fighter pilot's abrasiveness and self-regard, and fancied himself a gruff no-nonsense guy, just speaking the truth like a regular guy and standing up for America.

What was that guy's name again? Oh yeah - Duke Cunningham.

about more info Car InsuranceDon't be punished for paying monthly
Want to pay your car insurance rate monthly? Most companies will happily charge you extra for the privilege. Not us. We let you break-up your payments into bite-size monthly morsels at no extra cost for car insurance qoute. Monthly cheap car insurance payments subject to status.
Buy online and save at least 10% discount car insuranceGet a car insurance quote online and we'll knock a tidy 10% off the cost.
Car Insurance mesothelioma

Cliff, words come out of your keyboard, but really, they don't string together to make meaningful sentences.

That entire last post reads like "bla bla bla Hillary bla bla bla liberals bla bla bla Dean" - it's actually devoid of any factual content whatsoever. Which would be ok if you were trying to be funny. Was that it? Was your post meant to be funny?

rdw:

Look, I worked in the Dean campaign, and whatever you might say about the Governor's intemperate remarks (and there have been a few that made me cringe), he is the last thing from a "whacko." Saying that only identifies you as a partisan unworthy of serious political analysis or simply unobservant. And of all of that group, Dean's ego is definitely the smallest. He's an "un-politician" -- that's precisely how he caught on.

Now -- let me explain what it is that certain hawkish liberals and indies liked about McCain, because I don't think you have much insight beyond the conservative base: It's somebody who stands on principle and sticks to his guns.

The problem is that, while McCain the deficit hawk has been busy cozying up to the Bush budget and McCain the anti-torturer (no compromise!) has been allowing toothless legislation pass as a fig leaf for an ongoing torture policy (the topic of this thread) -- he's blown his credibility with precisely these kind of voters.

The make-nice with Bush didn't demolish him necessarily because these voters dislike these positions ideologically (they can be defended) -- it demolished him because they see him caving on his most cherished principles. McCain the Maverick has become McCain the Insider -- all that talk show bloviation only establishes him as another Beltway Tim Russert squeak toy. He's not exciting anymore.

As for the war hero stuff -- well, consider what Iraq will look like in the fall of '08. Either the government will have caught on and the violence settled down (something we *all* hope for), in which case the war looks like a success -- but the public is also extremely weary of war, so a "war hero president" looks less than necessary. Or -- Iraq proves a disaster and we withdraw, and war heros look even *less* attractive. In either case, by '08 we'll have a pretty good idea at least of how it's going to shake out.

Of course another terrorist strike on our soil would change the complexion of everything, in which case all bets are off ... that would certainly help a guy like McCain. Then again -- there's also Wesley Clark, if you want to put a war hero up against a war hero ...

Mainly, though, McCain will wind up flaming out due to what the intense pressure of campaining will do to a man who doesn't take guff kindly and will have that much less energy to force himself to be civil and think first because he's that much older and lacking in vigor. Energy, being able to run on all eight cylinders for 72 hours at a time, means a great deal especially in the primaries.

Bob

brooksfoe,

Kerry may have been a hero but he also was an exaggerator and as far as Xmas in Cambodia a liar. Kerry made an attempt to portray himself as a hero and that's unseemly and the congressional testimony was much worse. Kerry went in because he could't get any more deferments. McCain wanted to serve. Kerry got purple hearts for extremely marginal wounds. McCain was blown out of the sky and tortured. Kerry is just not an admirable guy

McCain gets respect for spending 6 years as a POW honorably. Just being a figher pilot and getting shot down commands respect as a person with drive, ability and courage. He never trashed his fellow troops or his country. He's never caried himself as a hero and has always been modest regarding his service.

I can guarrantee you no one will attack McCain on his service. Certainly not a Clinton.

As for the war hero stuff -- well, consider what Iraq will look like in the fall of '08.

liberals are clueless on the importance of war experience. That's why you nominated kerry, always a bad candidate, in the 1st place.

McCains war hero status is about his character. It's about the kind of person he is under pressure. It has nothing to do with Iraq. We all want a President we can admire. McCain is a guy we can admire and respect.

You had no idea then and still don't that Kerrys war experiece was a negative because of what it told us about his character.

I will attack McCain on his service. I see no reason why he should get any particular credit for it. The notion that he has "always been modest regarding his service" is ludicrous - he's always made quite sure everyone knew what he did in Vietnam.

McCain didn't do anything terribly wrong in Vietnam, but he didn't do anything particularly right either. Unlike more intelligent and reflective fellow POWs like Jim Stockdale and Pete Peterson, he doesn't seem to have ever done any reflection on the US's bloody and pointless failure in Vietnam and the meaning this might have for the future of US foreign policy and military conflicts. As for his conduct as a POW, there were 530-odd guys in the Hanoi Hilton who deserve as much credit or more, and I don't think any of them ought to be President, either.

What McCain's conduct during and after the war told us about his character was that he's a stubborn, pigheaded fool who is incapable of recognizing or acknowledging error or personal blame. Much like our current CiC - also a former fighter pilot who never accomplished much in combat.

he is the last thing from a "whacko.

Dean is absolutely a whacko. He was an awful candidate with a disasterous record both in actual primaries and in controlling his spending. He's an awful DNC chair making news every week for all of the wrong reasons.

Just today that dumb bastard tried to cite the Democrats strength on Defense citing all of the past Democratic Presidents viewed as strong in that area. FDR, Truman, JFK and Wilson. He had to go back 45 years!!! This highlights your weakness, Carter and Clinton were awful on defense.

Dean is stupid AND whacko.

rdw:

Brooksfoe's extensive comments upthread (props, dude!) about McCain the Prima Donna Prisoner pretty much demolish the idea that he was anything like an actual war hero who pulled his buddies' chesnuts out of the fire ...

As for Hillary ... first of all, I don't think you have much insight into feminists if you think they're going to vote as a bloc. Most self-identified feminists are also pretty strongly liberal, and Hil has been assiduously alienating the base, looking for those "Sistah Soulja moments" where she can establish her centrist creds.

The one thing the wingnuts get wrong about Hillary is that she really *is* a Midwestern Methodist at heart, a center-liberal but by no means a leftie. What she also is, though, is a terrible prima donna (heh, speaking of prima donnas :) who is prone to self-aggrandizing and self-pitying remarks that everybody's out to get her (Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, etc) -- and these, out of context, make her look like a MoveOn lefty.

There's a real strong question whether or not she'll be able to resolve this dissonace between politics and personality and present a unified image of herself. If she can't do that -- if she can't define herself solidly before she steps into the ring -- she's toast.

Bob

he's a stubborn, pigheaded fool

I'm not going to argue. You've got one hell of an education job and you won't be getting much help.

McCain is beloved. He has very, very high favorability ratings on his service. Attacking that would be pure suicide. No politician will do so. No politician will associate themselves with anyone else who does so. The MSM will not help and the conservative blogs won't. The liberal blogs just don't have the pull.

The man spent 6 years of his life in a POW camp for his country. You simply cannot take that away or criticize him on it.

pretty much demolish the idea that he was anything like an actual war hero

Think so do you? By all mean run with it. Your party would get crushed.

feminists if you think they're going to vote as a bloc.

They absolutely will vote as a bloc and they will vote for the female candidate. That especialy true for this female candidate with the very liberal voting record perfect on Abortion and all other significant feminist issues.

rdw:

Howard Dean is not a whacko, rdw. Give it a rest. I worked with his campaign, you haven't. We've had the discussion about Trippi, etc ... You never learn, just keep repeating the talking points drummed into your head whether true or not.

Nothing further you say on this warrants comment.

Bob

rdw:

In the general -- sure. I'd vote for Hil in the general.

In the primary, as a bloc -- no fucking way.

Bob

I can guarrantee you no one will attack McCain on his service.

Dubya did with help from Karl Rove.

rdw, what are you doing still up? I would have thought an LPN would have given you your goodnight meds by now. Isn't it time for lights out in the psych ward? Have you escaped again?!

Views > June 22, 2004
Reagan’s Legacy of Lies
By Joel Bleifuss
It has been a couple of weeks and Ronald Reagan is still dead—or is he?

His genial visage will no doubt be imprinted along “In God We Trust” on our money. Perhaps, replacing FDR on the dime—a coup de grâce for the right—but more likely, supplanting Andrew Jackson on the 20-spot. (We will leave it to historians to debate whose policies killed more indigenous people.)

More substantially, the right has been raising Reagan from the dead to bless, and thereby validate, the actions of his ideological heirs in the current Republican regime. Indeed, his ghost, a conjured specter, has become an invited guest at the White House, wreaking havoc through an administration willingly possessed.

Take his lies, or as Reagan’s handlers called them, “misstatements of fact.”

Reagan lied about the Iran-Contra scandal, continually. At a February 1988 press conference, he denied that his administration had held secret talks with Ayatollah Khomeini’s regime to arrange a guns-for-hostages deal, a fact that had been indisputably documented. Reporting on that press conference, the New York Times’ Anthony Lewis chronicled “a series of misstatements ranging from the preposterous to the dangerous.” He wrote, “Everyone knows his habit of inventing facts and uttering fantasies as if they really happened.”

Sorry about the cut and paste but I have to keep reminding rdw what a sleaze raygun was

Isn't it disturbing how skilled some of these guys have become at lying? Honestly, knowing everything that I do, I can still be emotionally taken in by someone like McCain. He sounds so real!

It's exactly like hearing that tinkly piano and the sweet flute, or maybe an oboe, playing during a bittersweet moment in some stupid Hollywood movie. I almost feel like crying when I hear that stuff! Even while I know perfectly well -- and even feel with anger -- that I'm being manipulated for all I'm worth.

It ain't going to be McCain in '08. And it ain't going to be Hillary, either. But I suppose it's fun to play with the idea.

It's also amusing to see liberals who were shocked and indignant about the questioning of Kerry's war record crapping all over McCain's record.

rdw:

What, against Wesley Clark, a NATO air commander who strategized and fought a successful war in the Balkans?

Advantage neutralized :)

Bob

Uhh, I'm no McCain fan but I do know Tom over at Human Rights Watch. This is purely a Lindsey Graham thing. McCain actually fought for this apparently.

The major pundits love McCain. He's the most asked for guest on the Sunday blabfests...But he's a hard core conservative.

McCain is hardly a hard core conservative. I'm not even sure he can rightly be called a conservative at all. He bests even Tony Blair in his lust for the ubernanny state. And then there's his disdain for the first ammendment. The notion that government ought to tell individuals in a free society how much or how little they can contribute to political campaigns is fundamentally and profoundly unconsersvative.

I will attack McCain on his service

You don't count. No well known figure will do so.

I can get over how stupid liberals are regarding vietnam. So long as you refer to that war as stupid and a waste you will never win an election. It just reminds America of your post -68 turn to blame america 1st for everything.

That sells perfectly to the 21% or so who identify themselves as liberal. It's repulsive to a majority.

...crapping all over McCain's record.

Just following Dear Leader. LOL!

tbrosz:

I agree totally with your first point. Heh, why don't you think so either? -- I'd love to know how your reasoning diverges with mine :)

As for the second point -- hey, all's fair in love and politix.

Besides which -- Kerry's war buddies call him a hero.

Apparently, McCain's antics made it worse for everybody around him.

Bob

I'm not even sure he can rightly be called a conservative at all.

McCain is an authentic pro-live social conservative. He's also a hawk on thw war, defense and spending but he's NOT a Reagan supply-sider on taxes and he is moderate on other issues. He is closer to conservative than anything else

Richard Goblin:

Then he should have made a major stink about it. Remember all the "no compromise" rhetoric while they negotiated on the torture legislation?

By what right does McCain give Bush a pass on this horseshit? Why no public denunciations of his colleague's loophole you could drive a waterboard through?

Sorry -- McCain drew the line in the sand against torture. No compromise.

If the policy is ultimately compromised -- it will be he and not Graham who will die by that sword.

Bob

Like I said, I don't think McCain did much wrong during the war, though I'm not sure his deliberate provocations of the Vietnamese interrogators were useful, and they may have hurt his fellow POWs.

I just don't think he did much particularly right either. And anybody who participated in that war - dropping dumb bombs on a civilian population center, no less - and who didn't subsequently publicly question whether the US had any business being in Vietnam gets some very big points taken off, in my book.

McCain has all the independence of Bulgaria in 1954.

"McCain is hardly a hard core conservative."

This statement is so false, it is funny.

bobbyp:

"All the independence of Bulgaria in 1954.~ LOL -- I'm stealing that one :)

Almost as good as "Sensitive? Heh, yeah. As sensitive as a Port Authority toilet seat."

:)

Bob

apollo 13,

I checked both links and there's no reference to an attack on McCains war service.

No well known figure will do so.

No well known figure attacked Kerry on his service record. You guys smeared him through batshit insane Rambo fascist Vietnam vets and hired small-time publicity whores.

In the case of McCain, there are two kinds of guys who came out of the POW experience. Some of them, like Stockdale and others, decided the US had no business being involved in what was basically a Vietnamese civil war, and had some very severe critiques of how we got involved. (Stockdale was flying on the night of the Tonkin Gulf incident; he said he saw no Vietnamese torpedo boats, "nothing but black water and American firepower".)

Others, like McCain, became bullheaded and stubborn (even more so than he already was - he was at the bottom of his class at Annapolis, almost flunked out), and refused to admit any error. That kind of guy doesn't make a good President, as we have learned over the last 5 years.

"It's also amusing to see liberals who were shocked and indignant about the questioning of Kerry's war record crapping all over McCain's record."

That's a good one, 'brosz. I remember well you crapping all over those who where crapping all over Kerry's war record, and crapping even more, over all those who defended the crap regarding GWB's service (and I use the term loosely) record. Crap not, lest ye be crapped upon. Yes, I recall it vividly--your war cry in the run-up to the craptackular election of 2004.

Oh, wait. Could I be mistaken?

Indeed, McCain no doubt would have flunked out of Annapolis if it weren't for the fact that his daddy was Commander of the US Pacific Fleet. Again, we've not been terribly impressed over the last 5 years by guys who owed their service records to interventions by powerful daddies.

What, against Wesley Clark, a NATO air commander who strategized and fought a successful war in the Balkans?

I don't undertand this reference. If you are suggesting Wesley as a candidate you are out of your mind. He's more of a stiff than kerry.

I checked both links and there's no reference to an attack on McCains war service.

rdw, from the first link:

The nadir moment occurred February 3rd when a smiling Bush stood in front of television cameras as a fringe Vietnam veteran, Thomas Burch, denounced McCain as a POW who “came home and forgot us.”

The Bush campaign painted McCain as mentally unstable since he had been tortured as a POW. Please, don't play dumb, rdw (Well, maybe...). It was even mentioned recently in the UK: "...while rumours were spread that he had committed treason as a PoW and was mentally unstable."

anybody who participated in that war - dropping dumb bombs on a civilian population center, no less - and who didn't subsequently publicly question whether the US had any business being in Vietnam gets some very big points taken off, in my book.

Why is this hard?

McCain will never get the anti-war blame-America-1st lefties. That's the point. He doesn't want them. The idea here is to attract a majority. That crowd is a distinct minority. 2008 might be about Iraq but it will not be about Vietnam just as 2O04 wasn't.

Kerry's problem wasn't Vietnam. It was his lies and exaggerations and then after the fact trashing of the Vets.

denounced McCain as a POW who “came home and forgot us.”

The reference obviously isn't about McCains war record. It's about his record after the war as a Senator

Again, we've not been terribly impressed over the last 5 years by guys who owed their service records to interventions by powerful daddies.

It was enough to get GWb elected 2x's wasn't it?

If the policy is ultimately compromised -- it will be he and not Graham who will die by that sword.

This is not a significant issue and it will be a positive for McCain

Look, it's not that McCain is really a "Manchurian candidate", as the Bush campaign tried to surreptitiously put about in 2000, who's been secretly programmed by the North Vietnamese to turn American communist or something. But there is a grain of truth to the anxiety over his POW experience and the effect it's had on him.

People who go through long and intensely traumatic periods like what McCain went through very frequently become stubborn, fixated, and uncommunicative or unwilling to collaborate. They exhibit erratic behavior and bursts of anger, particularly around issues that trigger responses they learned as coping strategies during the trauma years. This is true of Holocaust survivors, it's true of survivors of Communist persecution in Russia and China, and it's true of the US POWs in Vietnam.

The things you learn as a POW, and the character traits that help you survive under interrogation, do not help you as President. McCain is a loose cannon with a short fuse, quick to take any opposition as perfidy and dishonesty. 2 weeks ago he hit the "send" button on a letter to Barack Obama that he should never have composed, let alone sent. As President he'd have his finger on a lot of more important buttons than that. We don't want him in that job.

rdw:

Wesley Clark is your worst nightmare :)

And you're dead wrong. Kerry had all the charisma of a funeral director. Clark's a *hottie* -- he inspires groupies who still follow us to PA whenever Kevin posts something that even remotely mentions him.

He's got a hardcore fan base that makes Hillary's look positively anemic. A little green (heh, very green) as a politician for sure, and not my personal choice as a candidate.

But make no mistake -- there is exactly no comparison between McCain's and Clark's service records.

brooksfoe:

There's a deadly combination here. While McCain, like Bush, is pig-headed and always right -- Bush knew enough to surround himself with handlers and keep his press encounters tightly regulated. McCain's totally his own man, micromanaged his own campaign, and would go on with reporters at great length because he so loves to hear himself talk.

Candidates like that create endless fodder for later confrontations. What did you mean by that? Didn't you say last year that ... Why has your position changed? A guy like McCain with not much of a fuse to begin with will eventually lose it and tell the press off. Had his primary campaign gone any further last time, it would have happened.

McCain will crack under the pressure.

Bob

2 weeks ago he hit the "send" button on a letter to Barack Obama that he should never have composed, let alone sent. As President he'd have his finger on a lot of more important buttons than that. We don't want him in that job.

That letter was pitch perfect. You are not thinking as a political strategists.

1st off - the last thing McCain can afford to do is please lefties. You are never going to vote for him anyway and by definition if he's pleasing you he's pissing me off. He needs me. He can't win a primary without me. Obama is the perfect target. Find the most PC figure in congress and bitch-slap him. Big John just picked up 3 more states.

brooksfoe:

Trenchant, psychologically astute explication of the inevitable PTSS of intense trauma survivors.

McCain exhibited a bit of that on the Straight Talk Express. He'll exhibit more if he runs in '08.

A whole fucking lot more.

Consider the fact that his advanced years make him that much more subject to fatigue and stress.

Bob

The reference obviously isn't about McCains war record. It's about his record after the war as a Senator...

Can you all believe the depth of denial of rdw? LOL!

rdw, you overlooked the words, "committed treason as a PoW." McCain was a POW over there before he was a senator over here. Idiot! And... you're good with calling a vet "mentally unstable" because he spent 5 years in a POW camp?!!

Unbelievable!

McCain's and Clark's service records.

McCain has 2x's as many medals. Clark best part of his record is in Nam. His record at NATO was at best mixed. 1st off the campaign was an Air Campaign designed and managed by the Air Force. The most interesting event as far as Clarks leadership was a confrontation with a british General who disobeyed his command to block a russian airfield.

The worst part of his NATO record was getting prematurely sent to pasture by General Shelton and Defense Sec Cohen who outsmarted clinton. David Haversham wrote of this in a way very unfavorable to both Clinton and Clark.

If you say clarks a stud go ahead. I think he's stiff. If the libs were not so fixated on having a uniform available he'd never in a million years hae been a candidate.

1st off - the last thing McCain can afford to do is please lefties. You are never going to vote for him anyway

That is false; you're an incompetent political strategist. The reason McCain is a major political player is because of Democrats who admire his "straight talking" honest-John image. He certainly hasn't come this far on GOP support - he's betrayed the GOP too many times. His whole strategy is based on garnering Democratic support (because he's supposed to be "reasonable", "non-ideological" and an "honest guy") without losing the Republican base.

That's also why he's been one of the major players in campaign reform. God knows Republicans don't care about that. He's trying to appeal to Democrats.

McCain can't win on GOP support - too many factions in the party don't like him. The religious right deeply mistrusts him, and to win their support he'll have to start pandering to them. That in turn will destroy his independent and Democratic support.

Even apart from his non-Presidential personality and the fact that his candidacy will bring up the whole Vietnam thing all over again, McCain is a weak candidate, because he's dependent on crossover Democratic support which he won't get in the election.

"committed treason as a PoW." McCain was a POW over there before he was a senator over here. Idiot! And... you're good with calling a vet "mentally unstable" because he spent 5 years in a POW camp?!!

none of these claims were verified. GWB was never associated with them.

David Haversham wrote of this

You mean the Dickens character?

Oh, you must mean "Halberstam", right?

Cliff Clavin: I can guarantee you no-one will attack McCain on his service

Well, no-one except George W. Bush and Karl Rove, maybe:

'There’s no doubt that McCain’s 19 percent victory over Bush in New Hampshire caused a panic rethink strategy in the Bush team. Their response was to drop the “compassionate conservative” that had failed Bush in New Hampshire and wage a nonstop barrage of negative attacks to kill the messenger McCain. Nothing was too low to rule out. The nadir moment occurred February 3rd when a smiling Bush stood in front of television cameras as a fringe Vietnam veteran, Thomas Burch, denounced McCain as a POW who “came home and forgot us.” Governor Bush knows Burch well. The same Thomas Burch had accused President Bush of abandoning veterans during his administration, but alas, all old wounds must have been healed in time to neutralize McCain’s war hero factor. Push polling by Bush activists was standard fare and leaflets distributed by Bush allies described McCain as “pro-abortion” and “the fag candidate” (because McCain was the only Republican presidential candidate to meet with the gay Republican men’s group, Log Cabin Republicans). One particularly offensive missive distributed via the Internet and to the press was from the Christian Fundamentalist Bob Jones University, where Bush had staked his Chris