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Tilting at Windmills

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March 5, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

STAB IN THE BACK....Instapundit today:

The press had better hope we win this war, because if we don't, a lot of people will blame the media.

I'm too tired to even respond. The dreamland these people inhabit has become simply pathological.

Kevin Drum 2:15 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (258)

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Comments

A truly cogent analysis from a law professor. What on earth do his students learn from him?

Posted by: Linkmeister on March 5, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

I should say, "what on earth of value do they learn from him?"

Posted by: Linkmeister on March 5, 2006 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

How many divisions has Rupert Murdoch?

Posted by: Boronx on March 5, 2006 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

It's all our fault. Trust us, Bush could not have anticipated our craven wicked ways.

Posted by: The Media on March 5, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

The media doesn't want America to win in Iraq. They have decided to cherry-pick the words of General George Casey and other military experts who are trying to tell the truth that there is no civil war in Iraq and the situation is under control. Liberals would rather see George W Bush's poll ratings go down than to defeat the terrorists in Iraq.

Posted by: Al on March 5, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

They have to blame. It's a necessary aspect of having faith dashed. Their interpretation of personal responsibility.

But damn it, if the chickenhawks had just gone and fought...we'd have won easily, right?..

So..we never had enough troops..chickenhawks did not support the war with enlistment..draw your conclusions..

Posted by: Mudge on March 5, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

HE is responsible for the deaths of our men and women and he has the gall to try and blame the media for the "loss"?

He is the "media" for f***s sake!

Posted by: Ten in Tenn on March 5, 2006 at 2:25 PM | PERMALINK

a lot of people will blame the media.

Nah, just the deluded 34%.

Posted by: NTodd on March 5, 2006 at 2:28 PM | PERMALINK

Opinions like that are why Instapundit has no comments. Imagine the storm of response this tripe would engender! As the sun sinks slowly on the Bush administration and the neocon 'vision' shreds under the weight of reality, these sociopaths will attack anyone to shed the blame for the results of their own foolish actions. We better watch out for a putsch, which would be sold as for our protection. My big hope is that the Republicans will be the Whigs of the 21st Century.

Posted by: Les Izmore on March 5, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

Insta obviously realizes that they are going to need a scapegoat for Iraq very soon, so he's pushing their storyline forward. The ludicrousness of the assertion has never stopped them before, and won't now.

Posted by: nightshift66 on March 5, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

>A truly cogent analysis from a law professor. What on earth do his students learn from him?


How to make an ass out of themselves in blog-form.

Posted by: me on March 5, 2006 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know why anyone would have a quibble with this particular bit of instapunditry. If Karl Rove has anything to do with it, a lot of people undoubtedly will blame the media.

It's not like Bush is going to stand up and accept responsibility for his own actions.

Posted by: Oregonian on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

Al, you still around?

I thought i told you and all your keyboard fighters to go draft yourselves...

Posted by: me on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

The Iraq war was lost because Al stayed home.

Posted by: joe mcgee on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

The people who think America will blame the media for losing Iraq, are the same people who blame the media for losing Vietnam.

If only we'd "stayed the course," by golly, we could've prevailed!

Posted by: hillbilly ragger on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

Man, i knew Microsoft Word and Quark were sucky programs, but I didn't know they hated our troups.

Posted by: nova silverpill on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

To the extent that the 30% of the population who desparately need a way to rationalize Bush being so foolhardy is "a lot," then indeed, a lot of people will blame some combination of liberals, Democrats and the media. The reality-based 70% know what's what.

Posted by: Dr. Wu on March 5, 2006 at 2:31 PM | PERMALINK

I blame the media for the loss. Without a media assist, Bush would never have had his war on at all.

Posted by: Boronx on March 5, 2006 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

Well, I already do blame a good portion of the media:

Judith Miller
Rush Limbaugh
Wolf Blitzer
Nora O'Donnell
Joe Scarborough
Bill O'Reilly
Sean Hannity
Brit Hume
etc...

---

Posted by: MasterD on March 5, 2006 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

Oh!?

Blame the media? Like Vietnam? This administration has gotten such a free ride from the media, especially about Iraq, that Bush should be handing out medals to his media lapdogs. Don't blame the media when we lose this war, they have done every thing asked of them to make it easy for BUSHCO. The media got the message a long time ago. Go against this crime family and your life expectancy is zilch in Iraq, and your professional life expectancy domestically, is not much better.

Posted by: Scott on March 5, 2006 at 2:34 PM | PERMALINK

Oh!?

Blame the media? Like Vietnam? This administration has gotten such a free ride from the media, especially about Iraq, that Bush should be handing out medals to his media lapdogs. Don't blame the media when we lose this war, they have done every thing asked of them to make it easy for BUSHCO. The media got the message a long time ago. Go against this crime family and your life expectancy is zilch in Iraq, and your professional life expectancy domestically, is not much better.

Posted by: Scott on March 5, 2006 at 2:36 PM | PERMALINK

If nobody talks about it, does an IED really explode?

Are those mortar rounds or flower baskets?

"Of course, leaving behind the generators they brought for the photo-op counts as restoring vital services!"


What an interesting strategery for winning a war...


IN FACT, a loss in Iraq will be because Instanpundit's crew didn't buy enough yellow ribbon magnets!

Posted by: owlbear1 on March 5, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

A truly cogent analysis from a law professor. What on earth do his students learn from him?

You gotta wonder where the guy even finds the time to teach classes.

Posted by: Steve Brady on March 5, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Liberals would rather see George W Bush's poll ratings go down than to defeat the terrorists in Iraq.

dear fucktard - i would rather see the mureder in chief dead more than anything else - there were few if any terrorist problems eminating from iraq before the chimp misled the US into war - go fuck yourself with a rusty mace

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish on March 5, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK


So..we never had enough troops..chickenhawks did not support the war with enlistment..draw your conclusions..

Posted by: Mudge

Another dumbass Dumbercrat with an idoitic chickenhawk comment. Not even smart enough to recognize that in the ALL volunterr military there are plenty of people stepping up to the plate.

I did two tours in Viet Nam and bled real blood for my country unlike some fool like you throwing around a stupid word like chickenhawk. In this country you don't have to join the army to have an opinion or to support one side or the other. If we did all you mouthy dumbercrats would need to join the peace corps or some other organization to earn the right to talk like a fool.

So anytime you want to be a hypocritical Dumbercrat just call somebody a chickenhawk. It shows just your stupidity. I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK

IN FACT, a loss in Iraq will be because Instanpundit's crew didn't buy enough yellow ribbon magnets!

Nailed! Lazy ass cowards.

Posted by: Goran on March 5, 2006 at 2:39 PM | PERMALINK

I just saw that post as well, and was instantly reminded of why I quit reading Instapundit a few months back. It seems that whenever I am close to finally understanding conservative thought, and think I am reading the thoughts of educated and rational adults, something like this happens.

Posted by: New Talking Wall on March 5, 2006 at 2:40 PM | PERMALINK

The press had better hope we win this war, because if we don't, a lot of people will blame the media.

The concept of accountability is completely foreign to these idiots. This is the definition of cowardice.

Posted by: Paul on March 5, 2006 at 2:41 PM | PERMALINK

ATTENTION STUDENTS OF GLENN REYNOLDS

You now have precedent for any failing grade you receive: It's not your fault. He wasn't sufficently supportive of your hopes and dreams. He made you fail. Wanted you to fail. Diligence is fruitless.

Posted by: fouro on March 5, 2006 at 2:42 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin sure needs a lot of evidence before he unequivocally diagnose the Republicans like Instapundit as residents of a pathological dreamland.

Posted by: lib on March 5, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

Welcome to the Outer Limits. Instapundit controls the hatrical. Malkin controls the hatrizontal. Do not try to adjust your set.

Posted by: PSoTD on March 5, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

The media must also be to blame for 70% of the troops in Iraq thinking their mission is pointless and wanting out.....Right???

You are correct, Kevin. The self-delusion of these Bush lovers is pathological. They need psychological help. I hope their children are all on foot patrol in Fallujah without body armor, since things are going so swimmingly there.

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on March 5, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

I blame the dumb ass leadership of people like glenn reynolds for the deaths of tens of thousands of people in a stupid war, based on the lies and propaganda of the dumb ass right wing.

Mr. Reynolds, how can you sleep at night? I'm sure it helps that you turn off comments. Nothing like tuning out bad news to protect the process of incompetent and ideologically based policy making.

I blame the dumb ass leadership of people like glenn reynolds for the rising inequality and huge federal debt that will plague our children.

I blame the dumb ass leadership of people like glenn reynolds for the killing the Clinton health care plan, leading to the current situation of 40 million uninsured and 18,000 people DYING EVERY YEAR because they lack health insurance.

I could go on (and on) but I'm sure you get my drift!

Posted by: camille roy on March 5, 2006 at 2:43 PM | PERMALINK

FWG, are you aware that they've started to allow dumbasses and criminals in the military because recruitment is so bad? Don't you think a grizzled old vet is more likely gonna win this war than somebody too stupid and drugged out to make living except by knocking over convenience stores?

Posted by: Boronx on March 5, 2006 at 2:49 PM | PERMALINK

So the media needs to hope because otherwise they'll be blamed for our losing the war. Despite being one of the key agents in muzzling anti-war sentiment for the longest time and actually helping us get into this war?

Oh sure, I'll blame them when we lose. Blame them for helping us get into this mess in the first place.

Posted by: Kryptik on March 5, 2006 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

All I can think to say is...so fuckin what?

The right wing blames everything from bad hair days to painful rectal itching on the media. No matter how ill-conceived the rationale for war or the execution of it or the planning for what happens after it...it'll still be the media's fault. I'm thankful for Mr. Reynolds' work on the Second Amendment, but I think in this case he's just pointing out the obvious and hoping it'll become a meritorious argument because we won't catch him assuming facts not in evidence.

Posted by: Sebastian on March 5, 2006 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

No one alive today will be around when this war is finally decided one way or the other. This will be trans-generational.

Tell your children so they will know what to tell their children what their grandparents and great-grandparents had to say about how it all began. An oral people's history version is going to be very important as the corporatization of the narrative continues to deepen. The web may not be around as an archival reference.

There is so little hope now for a retreat from this brink. I'm not being pessimistic. This is known as embracing reality.

Posted by: Banquos ghost on March 5, 2006 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

Boronx is right it is the media's fault for not stopping the war before it started. The media and the Republicans started, waged and lost the war.

Posted by: cheflovesbeer on March 5, 2006 at 2:56 PM | PERMALINK

It is the media's fault because as everyone knows the pen is mightier than $400 billion a year Pentagon and the $280 billion in "supplemental" Iraqi invasion funds. The wargasm people refuse to admit that Bush couldn't organize a clambake but somehow all the ticket money is gone and it seems like his family and friends got it.

Posted by: George Johnston on March 5, 2006 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

But I thought you liberals have always claimed that the corporate conservative media is shilling for W all the time. You guys can't seem to make up your mind whether the MSM is your ally or foe.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

The press had better hope we win this war, because if we don't, a lot of people will blame the media.

to paraphrase Joseph Stalin:


"How many divisions does the media have?"

Posted by: renato on March 5, 2006 at 3:02 PM | PERMALINK

Another dumbass Dumbercrat with an idoitic chickenhawk comment. Not even smart enough to recognize that in the ALL volunterr military there are plenty of people stepping up to the plate.

Dear lying fat piece o'shit - those volunteers depended on the murderer in chief to not mislead themm into an unnecessary war - most were good and generous self starters only too happy to serve - there aren't a lot of people stepping up to the plate - that's why there's stop loss fuckwit - and i'd rather be a dumbercrat who was against the war than a CHICKENHAWK who sits at his keyboard cheering the liar in chief while good kids die for the biggest nothing since vietman - kindly FOAD!

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish on March 5, 2006 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

But I thought you liberals have always claimed that the corporate conservative media is shilling for W all the time.

they are. which makes this latest puff of flatulence from the wingnuts that much funnier.

Posted by: cleek on March 5, 2006 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

FWG, are you aware that they've started to allow dumbasses and criminals in the military because recruitment is so bad? Don't you think a grizzled old vet is more likely gonna win this war than somebody too stupid and drugged out to make living except by knocking over convenience stores?

Posted by: Boronx

Sorry but they still have standards for enlistment and turn people away even though they have not met their goals.

The military also has very high re-enlistment rates at the moment . Which offsets most of the shortfall in enlistments. This is something the lefty press won't mention when they talk about enlistment shortfalls.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 3:06 PM | PERMALINK

Can't Glenn clap lounder? If that doesn't help, why does not clapping hurt?

Posted by: David W. on March 5, 2006 at 3:07 PM | PERMALINK

The military also has very high re-enlistment rates at the moment .

dear fat white piece o'shit - it would be a lot more impressive if it were voluntary - link please or FOAD!

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish on March 5, 2006 at 3:09 PM | PERMALINK

actually, i will blame glenn reynolds and others like him for our loss in iraq. if not for their ridiculous shilling in the lead-up to the war we wouldn't have a war to lose in the first place

Posted by: upyernoz on March 5, 2006 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

If only the media had slapped Santorum campaign stickers on their cars, they wouldn't have to face the public's wrath...

Posted by: Thomas Allen on March 5, 2006 at 3:12 PM | PERMALINK

If we lose in Iraq, it is a failure of Republican leadership--not the media. Republicans did not govern like wartime leaders. They sought to exploit the GWOT for political purposes. They did not tamp down their domestic agenda for sake of national unity. Glen can think and assert what he wants, but the public is catching on that Bush Admin and Republicans in general lack the moral fitness to lead a great nation in time of war.

Posted by: Paul R on March 5, 2006 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

This is what a real vet says about the iraq quagmire - a hawk but with brains - John Murtha: The 'Only People Who Want Us in Iraq' are Iran, al Qaeda, and China

Hey fat guy - how are the cheetos goin' down today?

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish on March 5, 2006 at 3:13 PM | PERMALINK

"The Fuehrer is convinced his prophecy in the Reichstag is becoming a fact: that should Jewry succeed in again provoking a new war, this would end with their annihilation." - Joseph Goebbels, diary entry, August 19, 1941

Posted by: brooksfoe on March 5, 2006 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Perhaps, instead of attacking Instapundit for making an obvious statement, maybe you should ponder why the credibility of the MSM has fallen drastically in recent years. Maybe the American people haven awakened to the fact that the corporate media is nothing but a mouthpiece for the fat, Christian, white, hetero males. Shouldn't you all be cheering the MSM going the way of the UN?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

"But I thought you liberals have always claimed that the corporate conservative media is shilling for W all the time. You guys can't seem to make up your mind whether the MSM is your ally or foe."

Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit. No one here is defending the media. The reality is that the media was complicit in almost every aspect of the disaster known as Iraq. The irony being commmented on is that Republicans are basically preparing to blame the entire mess on the people that supported and aided them the most. It's like the media has battered spouse syndrome when it comes to the Republicans.

Posted by: OhNoNotAgain on March 5, 2006 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

"they are. which makes this latest puff of flatulence from the wingnuts that much funnier."

So is that what Kevin meant when he said stabbed in the back? So do you think this will push the conservative corporate media to the left? Will they now start writing articles to undermine America's objectives?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--


Let's cut the shit and get to what I think you're really getting at. My first answer is "Yes". I do think Reese Witherspoon will win Best Supporting Actress. As to the question about whether her victory will be due to "MSM liberal bias", I can only answer with a qualified "yes". The thing is, I'm not sure if Hugo Chavez can really be considered a part of the "MSM". He certainly has strong connections with the MSM, but I think on a purely technical level, you'd have to say that he's not really IN the MSM, right?

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:21 PM | PERMALINK

most were good and generous self starters only too happy to serve - there aren't a lot of people stepping up to the plate - that's why there's stop loss fuckwit

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish

Just another Dumbercrat with shit for brains. You should check things out first. Re-enlistment rates are high in combat units and the army overall. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-soldiers-re-enlist_x.htmat This not stop gap it is soldiers re-enlisting. So next time don't check your brain at the door when you want to try to respond to someone that has the facts on their side. I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

"The irony being commmented on is that Republicans are basically preparing to blame the entire mess on the people that supported and aided them the most."

So, now that the coporate conservative media has been stabbed in the back. Will they turn from being "supporters" or cheerleader of America to naysayers? Maybe the NYT might even run defeatists articles now.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

This is what a real vet says about the iraq quagmire - a hawk but with brains - John Murtha: The 'Only People Who Want Us in Iraq' are Iran, al Qaeda, and China

Hey fat guy - how are the cheetos goin' down today?

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish

If cut and run is such a good policy why are all the Dumbercrat leadership and presidential candidates running as far from Murtha as they can get? I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 3:27 PM | PERMALINK

those volunteers depended on the murderer in chief to not mislead themm into an unnecessary war

Thus Shakespeare (Henry V, act IV)

But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the king that led them to it, whom to disobey were against all proportion of subjection.

If a subject of a near-absolute monarch knew this to be so, how much truer should it be in a republic?

Posted by: Davis X. Machina on March 5, 2006 at 3:28 PM | PERMALINK

What the people will blame the media for is GW Bush even being "elected" president. Why didn't they tell us what an incompetent nincompoop he is - that his father had to bail him out of every business he ever was involved in - that he was a deserter from TANG etc, etc.
It will soon be CW that GW Bush never actually won either election. The American people will never admit to this mistake, just like in '74 you could not find anyone who voted for Nixon.
Americans are angry and will blame the press and with good reasons to blame them.

Posted by: cherry flavored on March 5, 2006 at 3:28 PM | PERMALINK

"are you aware that they've started to allow dumbasses and criminals in the military because recruitment is so bad?"

I find it strange that liberals want all the criminals to have a vote so that Dems can get elected. But they don't actually want to give someone a chance to serve his/her country.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:28 PM | PERMALINK

Gawd, if I tried to shove that crap down my student's throats they would kill me- with good reason.

Posted by: tomdurkin on March 5, 2006 at 3:29 PM | PERMALINK

"Let's cut the shit and get to what I think you're really getting at. My first answer is "Yes". I do think Reese Witherspoon will win Best Supporting Actress."

Actually, I don't even know who is up for what awards. Can't say I really care.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-soldiers-re-enlist_x.htmat

'The requested document was not found.'

Posted by: fourmorewars on March 5, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--

I'd love to follow your argument, but unfortunately I cannot speak binary code that well.

Oh, what the hell, let's give it a shot---

Good, good, bad, bad, good, good, bad, bad, good, bad, good, bad, bad, bad.

You see what I'm getting at here?

Here's a hint: this is a report of my many complex feelings towards the "MSM". You may wonder: "How can kokblok have such contradictory feelings towards the MSM which is, after all, one monolithic computer that never ever changes!??"

Indeed, it is remarkable.

Now, anyway, back to Reese...

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

heh.. yet another example of the unfalsifiable correctness of conservatism. nothing a conservative ever does is wrong; if something a conservative does fails, it's only because someone else caused it to fail.

Posted by: cleek on March 5, 2006 at 3:30 PM | PERMALINK

That's perfectly acceptable for Reynolds to say something like that. There are a lot of stupid people in this country who think Rush Limbaugh is a newsman, too.

Nothing else is a factor for why we lost Iraq other than the media's constant negativity. Only if we clapped louder, right?

I can't laugh anymore, even though I should be at the absurdity of it all.

Only the dumbest segment of the population will blame the media, and that's hovering around where Bush's numbers are currently, maybe 35% of the country or less.

Posted by: The Gorn on March 5, 2006 at 3:31 PM | PERMALINK

The true cowardice of the American right now shows its face. Now that the war is beyond any doubt an irredeemable clusterfuck, the BushBots are frantically searching for a scapegoat. Congress? Um, that's not gonna work... The White House? Um, no... Uh, Clinton? Hmm... this is kind of tough. The media? Well, it's a long shot but it's all we have.

(Voice chimes in from the back of the room)
Hey guys, maybe we should just take responsibility ourselves for what happened in Iraq. I mean, we did call for the war, plan it and execute it. We broke it, we bought it... (pause)

Ah, fuck it. It's the media's fault!

Posted by: JK47 on March 5, 2006 at 3:31 PM | PERMALINK

How many divisions has Rupert Murdoch?

Best. Response.

Posted by: fiat lux on March 5, 2006 at 3:31 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--
You call yourself a PATRIOT and you don't care about the Oscars?!

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:32 PM | PERMALINK

"What the people will blame the media for is GW Bush even being "elected" president. Why didn't they tell us what an incompetent nincompoop he is - that his father had to bail him out of every business he ever was involved in - that he was a deserter from TANG etc, etc."

Hey, you can't blame Dan Rather and CBS for a lack of trying.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:33 PM | PERMALINK

"You call yourself a PATRIOT and you don't care about the Oscars?!"

How much you want to bet the ratings will bomb just like the Grammys?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:34 PM | PERMALINK

The reference to "stabbed in the back" is to the "stab in the back" theory of German defeat in WWI, a historical myth which took hold in the 1920s among German nationalists who came to believe that they would have won the war if only they hadn't been "stabbed in the back" by defeatist politicians at home. This became one of the animating myths of the Nazi Party. It's a familiar theme among bitter conservatives in many countries which lose wars, who can't accept that they have in fact lost, and it generally leads to vengeful conservative political revanches; a similar myth took hold in the US among conservatives after Vietnam - that the US had "won the war on the battlefield, but lost it at home," that "politicians made us fight the war with one hand tied behind our backs", and so forth.

If an Iraqi civil war and US retreat is followed by a severe economic recession in the US and a collapse of real estate prices and/or the dollar, the political consequences could be extremely worrisome, as they were in Germany. Fortunately of course the actual costs and casualties of the Iraq war are trifling in comparison to WWI's cost to Germany. And no one will be demanding reparations from us.

Posted by: brooksfoe on March 5, 2006 at 3:36 PM | PERMALINK

"Hey, you can't blame Dan Rather and CBS for a lack of trying."

Well, it's true, If one person lies about something, then of course the opposite of whatever that person said must be true. I think I read about this in my logic class somewhere.

Speaking of CBS, do you think they'll ever bring back "Matlock"?

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

but I thought you liberals have always claimed that the corporate conservative media is shilling for W all the time. You guys can't seem to make up your mind whether the MSM is your ally or foe.

The "but I thought" strawman set-up is a preposterous confession of idiocy. First, it's a cliche. (Please read Orwell on the uses of cliche.) Second, who cares what you thought? Argue against the actual words of an actual person.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 5, 2006 at 3:38 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--

How much do I want to bet?! I'm not really a betting man. But there's this guy Ralph Reed who might be interested...

PS--My last post about CBS was not really worded exactly as I would have liked it to be. What I meant of course is that the presence of a fake assertion by one person does not disprove any other similar assertions.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for Davis X. Machina's Henry V quote. Scandalously apt.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 5, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK

I did check out the reenlistment story. Fatso forgot to note the story describes average "bonuses" of $10,000, with the upper limit of a $150,000 bonus. (Our tax dollars t work, finghting an unnecessary war against non-terrorists.) I don't think these bonuses were figured into the $2 trillion estimate for bush's war against Iraq.

Posted by: tom on March 5, 2006 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

Actually the irony is in one sense the media is to blame--> for getting us into this.

Posted by: Ten in Tenn on March 5, 2006 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK
I did two tours in Viet Nam and bled real blood for my country unlike some fool like you throwing around a stupid word like chickenhawk. Posted by: Fat White Guy
Yeah, so why did you lose Vietnam, bigmouth; and why aren't you in Iraq. Big talk, small deeds. Here, the army recruiting is the lowest in years. All blowhards like you can do is lie.
started to allow dumbasses and criminals in the military But they don't actually want to give someone a chance to serve his/her country. Posted by: Freedom Fighter
I find it strange that you haven't joined since they are now so desperate they'll even take Republicans who do their darnest to keep non-whites from voting.
that his father had to bail him out of every business he ever was involved in - that he was a deserter from TANG etc, etc."Posted by: Freedom Fighter
Bush, the prancing princeling of privilege and his heroic service to his country Posted by: Mike on March 5, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

tom--
A $150,000 bonus! Shit, why not just hire Afghans to do it at a twentieth the cost?

Oh, wait, we tried that already.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

He loves it, you hear. Daft, I say.

Some folks reenlist because they're promised a better assignment if they do. The threat of spending your last three months trolling for IEDs has proven effective.

Most (70%) want to be redeployed out of Iraq. They don't necessarily want to leave their units behind. They don't necessarily want to leave the military. It's bullshit they seem to dislike, FWG.

You're a chucklehead. Tell me you love it again. I gotta go to work.

Posted by: Big Elf on March 5, 2006 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINK

"PS--My last post about CBS was not really worded exactly as I would have liked it to be. What I meant of course is that the presence of a fake assertion by one person does not disprove any other similar assertions."

And of course an assertion doesn't prove anything. But, what makes me wonder is: why would CBS go with the fake stuff, if the real assertions are so plentiful?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 3:47 PM | PERMALINK

Like the Brown Shirts the "Media", whatever that is, have outlived their usefulness and must be destroyed in preparation for the consolidation of power in the hands of the executive. True believers like FF and FWG will never abandon their leader. They still believe that the NYT lost the Vietnam war. They will happily march into the work camp singing 'Work Makes Us Free." Thank God we've got real, decorated patriots like Jack Murtha calling the military leadership out on their lies (Remember General Westmoreland anybody?) Hopefully some of the officer corps will fight against the putsch. Maybe it will turn out that the NRA was right all along...

Posted by: Les Izmore on March 5, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--
CBS did that because they were sloppy. It's the same reason why some organizations sometimes overstate the numbers of victims in massacres, etc. But just because some historians got specific figures wrong about the number of Jews killed in Dachau does not mean the Holocaust did not happen.

And contrary to your assumption, there is plenty of other evidence about Bush's time in the National Guard. Not that I really care about the substantive issue that much. If he didn't want to go to war, well that's fine. But it's laughable to suggest that he acted in a way that you could call "patriotic".

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

It used to be that conservatives didn't really believe in the existence of a world outside the US's borders. These days it seems they don't believe in the existence of a worl outside their TV sets.

Posted by: brooksfoe on March 5, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

fat guy - linky no worky - and for every dem running away from murtha there are plenty who are grateful - Dean comes to mind

Posted by: swampy mcfeverish on March 5, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fries--

And really why would you be surprised that CBS news might make such a mistake? This is the network that continues to air "The King of Queens" every week.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

Credit the loss to the insurgents.

It really is amazing the determination that local folks can bring to bear against foreign invaders.

Because just like the North Vietnamese, the Iraqi insurgents stopped the big red, white, and blue war machine dead in its tracks.

One can only hope that should America ever get invaded, our fat white guys will show as much spunk...

Posted by: koreyel on March 5, 2006 at 4:02 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for Davis X. Machina's Henry V quote. Scandalously apt.
Posted by: Jeffrey Davis

Wow - That took my breath away! SO appropriate for the chimp - thanks, David!

Posted by: leftydem on March 5, 2006 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINK

If he didn't want to go to war, well that's fine. But it's laughable to suggest that he acted in a way that you could call "patriotic".

Posted by: kokblok on March 5

Calling Bush's gaurd service unpatriotic is saying that everyone in the gaurd at that time was not much better than a draft dodger. He flew jets and that is not the safest occupation in the military. It also requires some nerve and courage. So get a grip on reality. He did not dodge the draft and go to England, become a military correspondent with his own bodygaurds or run off to Canada. I realize it is tough for you Bush haters to swallow but Bush served in the military and served honorably as well as left the service with an honorabe discharge. I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

Ooooh OOooHHH! Let me!

Could it be that winning a war is not a function of the depth and accuracy of the journalism that covers it -- but rather whether or not that war is a just cause?

Could that be it?

Could it be that victory in any war hinges on the same causes and principles outlined by our forefathers in initiating and explaining the American Revolution?

Sure, the Nazis beat the Polish. Doesn't make them brave. Could it be that victory rest upon the standards of prosecution of a war? Use execrable standards, torture, and the like -- and you lose.

Not true across the board, of course. Milosovic can get away with slaughtering Bosnian Muslims -- for awhile. The Poles lost to Hitler -- at first.


Could it be that an offensive, preemptive war is bound to fail? Hitler was the last one to claim this route as justified -- due to the threat posed by the French, of course clearly proving his point. We all know what a big threat the French are in military matters.

You can come up with many, many examples where sheer might beats justice, sovereignty, etc.

Nonetheless, when the rubber hits the road, the abandonment of core American principles don't pay off: reckless use of military might and the hubris to assert that the Imperial Presidency can ever "know better" than the principles and rationale behind our own American Revolution only manage to shame this country's honor and kill several million people, and shame us before the world. It also badly damages our national security.

Could it be that only wars based on a just cause, conducted w/o resort to terror and torture, defend one's native soil -- rather than vague abstracted "interests," protect national sovereignty, liberate but never occupy, eliminate genocidal tyrants who transgress national boundaries, or band together with other nations to do the same -- could it be that only those wars are "winnable" in any real and valuable sense, are justifiable, are cost-effective?

In 1776, the British press certainly didn't cover the American Revolution accurately. They didn't tell the Truth. They didn't report the facts. They didn't justly report the political dynamics, nor the grievances of citizens, nor the injustices and repression visited upon the English citizens.

And the Brits lost.

We fought a Revolution because the British troops were quartered in our homes, and violated our homes in order to quell legitimate dissent and to root out rebels.

Now Bush is doing the same thing here at home. US troops are violating Iraqi homes at will, bursting into homes w/o evidence of wrongdoing, and inciting anger and inflaming the citizenry in the process.

It's not just Vietnam all over again, it's the American Revolution all over again.


Posted by: SombreroFallout on March 5, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

One can only hope that should America ever get invaded, our fat white guys will show as much spunk...

Posted by: koreyel

Unlike you I won't be hiding in my closet. Also FYI the Viet Nam War was lost by politicians not the military.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 4:10 PM | PERMALINK

Instapundit today? tbrosz -- no doubt sensing, if not willing to admit, that his hero Bush's excellent Iraq adventure was failing no matter how hard he clapped --- has been pushing this line for months now.

Kudos to Kevin for recognizing the echo of the loathsome Dohlschtoss strategy that helped propel the Nazis into power. If the Bush Cultists want to play this false and bogus card, then a repeal of Godwin's Law seems to be in order.

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 4:10 PM | PERMALINK

Daddy daddy... I don't wanna go to Vietnam...

Daddy get me a posh post in the Guard Daddy...

Please daddy... please....

Posted by: Fit White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 4:10 PM | PERMALINK

FWG--

I didn't say he was "unpatriotic". I said that that particular action (maneuvering to serve in the TANG) was not especially patriotic. For all I know, he flew six flags out of his asshole during the entire sixties.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

What have I learned from this thread?

Apparently, Fat White Guy loves 'it.'

Insert your own joke here.

(The phrase 'I love it' has got to be up there in the Pantheon of Idiotic Non-Sequitors.)

Posted by: Stranger on March 5, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

Daddy daddy... I don't wanna go to Vietnam

True.

But the good news is he made space for other dumb fucks like this to get their brains shot to hell:

I did two tours in Viet Nam and bled real blood for my country unlike some fool like you

Posted by: Mary Rosh on March 5, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK
But I thought you liberals have always claimed that the corporate conservative media is shilling for W all the time. You guys can't seem to make up your mind whether the MSM is your ally or foe.

Freedom Fighter (appropriate handle!) why are you so egregiously ignorant? Nothing about this accretion of language makes a hare's worth of sense.

Kevin made no statement whatsoever about the MSM. Insta did and we basically said, "this guy is on drugs and if he isn't he outta be."

And if there is a consensus on the left that the MSM has a corporate bias, and there just may be...

How does that in ANY WAY effect the stupidity of Reynold's statement?

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

Interestingly, today Atrios quotes Andrew Sullivan:

The men and women in our armed forces did the hardest work. They deserve our immeasurable thanks. But we all played our part. By facing down the evil, the cowardly and the simply misguided, we have done a great good.

...and points out that the Bush Cultists (whose ranks, admittedly, Sullivan has departed) seem to cast themselves in heroic roles in the so-called War on Terror, which would explain why the 101st Fighting Keyboarders need someone else to blame for losing their war -- after all, otherwise it'd be their fault.

That said, I like to think that the Bush critics here are in fact doing some good by facing down the evil, the cowardly and the simply misguided.

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

By far the greater number will blame George W. Bush, who started it and carried it out.

Posted by: twc on March 5, 2006 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINK

"CBS did that because they were sloppy. It's the same reason why some organizations sometimes overstate the numbers of victims in massacres, etc."

Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But is it sloppiness when Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are, to this day, still claiming the documents are real?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

this board is awfully testy today. no shortage of righteous indignation around here i tell ya.
that a great number of people will blame the media for a potential failure in iraq seems like a stretch to me. that said, it sure does seem that plenty of the msm reporting falls into the category of "iraq must be a failure and our reports must show that it is so." just recently we've seen reports of the a civil war that doesn't appear to be happening. (unless you're willing to define a civil war as the insurgent/terroist violence in about four of the provinces. i guess you could if it serves your preconceptions.) then the wash. post reports a wildly overinflated figure of deaths that seems to have no basis reality.
instapundit references ralph peters. you guys ought to read what he has to say. he's spent time in iraq - he's there now. he is by no means a fan the current administration. his reports are more credible than most of those from the msm.
when i see the ap finally admitting late on friday afternoon that their "confidential" katrina video was not confidential and that they misreportrd its contents, it doesn't give me much hope that they don't a partisan agenda. it must be that "conservative, corporate media."
one more thing. from what i read here, i suppose that instapundit must be one of those pro abortion rights, pro stem cell research, godless conservatives we hear so much about.
unwad your collective boxers, guys. you're getting awfully shrill.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 4:31 PM | PERMALINK

"And really why would you be surprised that CBS news might make such a mistake? This is the network that continues to air "The King of Queens" every week."

You are right. No sane person takes CBS seriously anymore.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 5, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, this crap has already started.

Everybody, repeat after me: this is Bush's war. Bush fucked up Bush's war. Bush had unlimited funds and the total control of the greatest war machine in all history.

Bush lost Bush's war because he's an idiot. No, there is no way to weave Clinton into a blame scenario.

The ONLY people responsible are Bush, his cronies and enablers (including Lieberman), and the people that voted for him.

Posted by: bebimbob on March 5, 2006 at 4:35 PM | PERMALINK

Intapundit has a good argument: our mainstream media has splashed all the bad news in Iraq on the front pages, and has ignored the positive things that are happening.

Drum thinks the reporting on Iraq reflects reality?????

Posted by: Paddy Whack on March 5, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK
Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But is it sloppiness when Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are, to this day, still claiming the documents are real?

Where is your citation on what Rather believes?

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK

True.

But the good news is he made space for other dumb fucks like this to get their brains shot to hell:

Posted by: Mary Rosh

Fortunately I just had one bounce off of a rib. So the pitifully few brain cells that I have are still intact. Unlike Dumbercrats like you that have always hid at home and let someone else carry water for them.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

Intapundit has a good argument: our mainstream media has splashed all the bad news in Iraq on the front pages, and has ignored the positive things that are happening.

How did you get to be such a silly person?

Posted by: poot Smootley on March 5, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

Where is your citation on what Rather believes?

Posted by: obscure

Why be so lazy? Do a simple search. Rather never really apologizes and never admits that the documents might be false. He still supports them.

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

Unlike Dumbercrats like you that have always hid at home and let someone else carry water for them.

Yuppers, Fatty! Like my hero GWB who got his rich daddy to pull strings and get him to the head of the TANG line so he protect Texas from the VC.

Cowards like Murtha, Kerry, Cleland... make me sick.

Posted by: poot Smootley on March 5, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

"Also FYI the Viet Nam War was lost by politicians not the military."

Had to laugh at this one. Can't believe there are still folks around who think this passes for significant historical insight.

The Viet Nam War was lost by the United States of America. All of it. The only way the military could have "won" the war was to destroy the country. Nobody--the US politicians, the US military, or the US citizens--believed that was acceptable, so we conceded defeat, sued for peace and left.

The childlike Dolchstosslegende of the wingnuts nonwithstanding.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINK

Now is that another post from the "real" Mary Rost, or has John Lott-Rosh joined the group?

Posted by: tom on March 5, 2006 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

Here we go again. How many divisions does the Media command? What was the Media's plan for fighting the war? What plan's did the Media have for after the invasion?

Typical of the Bushies, deflect, stonewall, lie, and above all, blame somebody else for your long string of failures. Time to wake up and smell the coffee and stop drinking the BUSHCO Kool-Aid.

Posted by: Herewegoagain on March 5, 2006 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK
Why be so lazy? Do a simple search. Rather never really apologizes and never admits that the documents might be false. He still supports them.

Kiss my nether regions, FWG.

I didn't make the assertion, that's why I'm not doing the research. If you're asserting something as fact and you have the poor judgement & manners to eschew responsibility for justifying the claim...

Oh.

Then I guess you'd be a "Republican."

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINK

Gawd, if I could type . .. the "real Mary Rosh"

Posted by: tom on March 5, 2006 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

sounds like Big Fat Ugly White Guy has a poster of Bush on the ceiling above his bed.
It also seems to be that most Bush apologist are so scared of their own shadow that they are willing to have own civil liberties taken away.

BWG: Help me Daddy I'm scared. Please take anything you need just don't let those big bad terrorist hurt me (whine,whine)

Posted by: DH on March 5, 2006 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

sounds like Big Fat Ugly White Guy has a poster of Bush on the ceiling above his bed.
It also seems to be that most Bush apologist are so scared of their own shadow that they are willing to have their own civil liberties taken away.

BWG: Help me Daddy Bush I'm scared. Please take anything you need just don't let those big bad terrorist hurt me (whine,whine)

Posted by: DH on March 5, 2006 at 5:11 PM | PERMALINK

Did you read what Frank Rich wrote? I am going to make an extra-good IED today!

Posted by: Ahmed X on March 5, 2006 at 5:12 PM | PERMALINK

TeWwwWWWwWWwwwwWWWwwWWWwwwwooooOOOOooOOoooWisTs !!!!!!!!!

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 5, 2006 at 5:22 PM | PERMALINK

I'm too tired to even respond. The dreamland these people inhabit has become simply pathological.

Except for the reports from Jonathan Dworkin, almost all of your commentary has been on the negative side. And you do not hope the Americans win the war; you have said that such a win would hurt the chances of the Democratic candidate for president in 2008. Since you lack hope, I don't think there is any merit of your criticism of people who have such hope.

Posted by: republicrat on March 5, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

SombreroFallout: "Could it be that winning a war is not a function of the depth and accuracy of the journalism that covers it -- but rather whether or not that war is a just cause?"

Nice analysis, thanks!

Alas for those of us who live in the real world and for the Iraqis, the few Americans who still defend Bush disaster in Iraq tend to be perpetrators rather than moral philosophers. For them, Iraq is a "just" war, by definition, because we are fighting it. In addition, we have to be winning in Iraq because we are big and powerful. Might makes right! Might guarantees victory!

Like all perpetrators, Bush's defenders 1) live in denial of the reality of what they have done, 2) rely on brute force to ward off scary feelings. They'll beat up anything that disturbs their simple fantasy. Any hint that mighty, big, powerful US won't win this war will provoke an assault on the messenger.

Really, Godzilla has more psychological complexity.

Posted by: PTate in MN on March 5, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

Brian--
Can you explain to me what you think a "Civil War" is? There seems to be some basic confusion here. How many provinces need to see attacks for something to be called a "Civil War"? Last time I checked, there were plenty of Civil Wars around the world that were confined to a small geographical part of a nation.

Also, last time I checked there were plenty of conflicts that are described as "Civil Wars" that look pretty much exactly like what is going on in Iraq now. It is perfectly reasonable for the MSM to use this term, and it is also perfectly reasonable for the MSM to focus on the regions with the most violence, for the same reason that a reporter during WWI would probably focus more on the Battle of the Marne rather than the building of a new school in Southern Bavaria.

All of this is so obvious, it doesn't even seem like there should be any need to discuss it. Maybe that is why everyone's panties are in a wad.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 5:34 PM | PERMALINK

Republicrat--

Cool, so what you're saying is all I have to do is have hope in something, and then I don't have to worry about any criticism from people who don't share that hope?

Nice work if you can get it.

Posted by: kokblok on March 5, 2006 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINK

I'm so fat, every time I fart I have to file an environmental impact statement.

Of course, the internet has made the paperwork a lot easier.

I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

Readers should read the entirety of Glenn Reynolds' post, and also should read the entirety of the most recent Brookings Institution report on Iraq (which can be found by following his links, or by going to the Brookings Institution web site.)

the mainstream press has been seriously remiss in its one-sided reportage.

Posted by: republicrat on March 5, 2006 at 5:43 PM | PERMALINK

The conservative estimates for civilians killed is 200-300 per month. Iraq has less than 1/10 the population of the US, so this would be like 2000-3000 civilians killed per month here. One 9/11 per month. Every month.

Instahack cites approvingly The Opinionated Bastard take on this, which is "big yawn."

Pigs.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

I don't think anyone would have anticipated this administration making a mistake...

I certainly didn't.

And had I known I was making a mistake, I wouldn't have made it.

Posted by: George W. Bush on March 5, 2006 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

"Readers should read the entirety of Glenn Reynolds' post, and also should read the entirety of the most recent Brookings Institution report on Iraq (which can be found by following his links . . ."

That's exactly what I did. Which is where I learned that Reynolds believes it's would be a "big yawn" if US civilians were murdered on the scale of one 9/11 incident every month.

Moron.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 5:51 PM | PERMALINK

so what you're saying is all I have to do is have hope in something, and then I don't have to worry about any criticism from people who don't share that hope?

If the key word here is "worry", then sure. You do not need to worry about certain criticisms from people who do not share your hopes -- in particular, you do not need to worry that they think you inhabit a pathological dreamland. This is the classic advice given to people who have aspirations: Wilber and Orvill Wright didn't listen to the mocking of the pessimists, and neither should you.

I repeat my recommendation above: read Reynolds' post in its entirety, follow the links, and read the latest version of the Brookings Institution Iraq Report.

Posted by: republicrat on March 5, 2006 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK

Since you lack hope, I don't think there is any merit of your criticism of people who have such hope.

Kevin's criticism isn't on people who have "hope" the war in Iraq can be won. His criticism is on people who have doggedly ignored Bush's mendacity and incompetence -- the very things that made any "hope" of a victory in Iraq foolish indeed -- and now that the fact of failure in Iraq resulting from Bush's mendacity and incompetence has become too obviousto ignore, are seeking to cast blame not on themselves and the president they supported, but on others.

For my part, I take great comfort in the dishonesty peddled by GOP apologists like Reynolds and republicrat. While I know some will swallow their bullshit and ask for seconds -- hello, FWG! -- I hold out naive hope that the American people can be trutsted to make their own judgments from the facts.

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Peter Pace, was on Russert's MTP this morning going on about the bad news media.

I guess InstaIntimidator got his talking point for this Sunday and followed in lockstep.

Is Glenn on Pentagon payola?

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 5, 2006 at 6:00 PM | PERMALINK

One of the failures of the Left in this situation (and here I include much of the traditional media) is to consider the type of informational war the Islamic fascist terrorists are waging. In an effort to promote balance --however defined-- the MSM provides the statement of an Administration official beside the statements of, variously, Baghdad Bob, Iranian spokesmen, al Queda spokesmen, et al without any hint that one side is inherently untrustworthy (HINT: It's not the Administration.) while the other should be questioned for its veracity because it can sometimes be untrustworthy.

The Left seems so quick to talk about President Bush's poll numbers. But look around for the equivalent approval numbers of the press corps writ large. The press is less trusted than lawyers in some polls I've seen; as an attorney I can confirm that this is no mean feat.

Let's be honest! Neither the Left nor the Right trusts the media. The Left doesn't think the media pushes hard enough against the memes of the Bush Administration while the Right didn't think the media pushed against the memes of the Clinton Administration. So, yes, a significant percentage of the US polpulace will hold the press accountable for their perceived failings even when the underlying reasons for the beliefs are different.

And to all those who think this is a good thing for our democracy I must profoundly disagree. The press has largely abandoned its veil of non-partisanship on both the Left and the Right. They have belittled themselves for short-term political agendas to the detriment of us all. We're all worse for their dubious efforts.

But then it's easier to just attack Instapundit in relative anonymity inside a comments section of a liberal blog about which I'm guessing Glenn Reynolds cares very little. So let's not think of how to rectify press failures. That would be too hard, I guess.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK

The "media" sucked up to the child king, the little theofascist, they bowed before the little man, they ignored the fact that only a GD fool would invade Iraq. Yes, the media is to blame for enabling the freak and helping him going in...now ALL the blame lays at the feet of Bush and the cult which follows him wherever he wants to go. Instafool and the cult are to blame for the nation's move to hell.

The media is to blame for not declaring Bush the national security risk he has so obviously been since Dec 13, 2000.

This nation is tubes and it isn't just the war. Look at the anti american theocrat Alito bowing before his theocratic enablers.The constitution is poised to get pissed on - bigtime.

Bush is the manchurian candidate but the anti american courts are who will finish the nation off.

Posted by: Ned on March 5, 2006 at 6:03 PM | PERMALINK

One of the failures of the Left in this situation (and here I include much of the traditional media)

Thank you for revealing your faulty logic and/or dishonesty up front, Birkel, sparing us from any further consideration of your post.

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 6:06 PM | PERMALINK

kokblok,

fair point about reporting vs. what is or is not a civil war.
it seems to me that reporting that a "civil war" is ongoing is (by design or not) going to make people think of our own civil war. the fighting in iraq does not by any stretch of the imagination even resemble that.
your ww1 analogy is, however, flawed. we hear from the msm about violence in central iraq and that is taken to be the situation throughout the entire country. beyond that, ww1 took place across borders. however, to keep with your analogy, it would be as if a reporter at the marne or ypres implied that things were the same in sweden or portugal. the "sunni triangle" is far different from the kurdish north, for example.
please read what ralph peters, michael totten, or the brookings institute have to say. iraq is simply not the miserable failue that many wish to believe that it is. i do not necesarily include you in that group.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 6:07 PM | PERMALINK

...golly, but I'm glad I read on, because if I hadn't, I would have missed this howler:

without any hint that one side is inherently untrustworthy (HINT: It's not the Administration.)

Hilarious! Birkel, you're a card!

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 6:07 PM | PERMALINK

Pathological is the perfect term. And yes Birkel, it is easy to attack Instapundit. He makes it that way. Because if you want to talk about rectifying press failures that is one thing. If you want to do so in the context that if we do lose the war, it is the fault of the press, that is pathological.

Posted by: paulE on March 5, 2006 at 6:09 PM | PERMALINK

So let's not think of how to rectify press failures. That would be too hard, I guess.

yeah, cause the press is the issue here. it's all the messenger's fault.

Posted by: cleek on March 5, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

cleek,
So you think the press, which serves an important funciton in a democratic society and thus is protected in part by the very first Amendment to the Constitution, is perfect? So be it.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 6:15 PM | PERMALINK

Let's be honest! Neither the Left nor the Right trusts the media.

I don't think you'd find a single commenter here who would disagree with that assesment, so I'm not sure what your point is.

So let's not think of how to rectify press failures. That would be too hard, I guess.

It's actually quite easy - do away with 'access journalism' (where the news coverage is tainted by either selective access [ie, Woodward's Bush At War, where he was apparently privy to classified information in an effort to pump up the Bush hagiography], or the threat of loss of access [which the Bush administration has developed to a high art]), and remove both those who use access journalism as a weapon (Karl Rove and Andy Card spring readily to mind) and those who succumb to their demands (Len Downie and just about every cable network executive, for a start).

Now, rooting these high-priced whores and political Machiavellis from their entrenched positions - that would be pretty difficult.

Posted by: Stranger on March 5, 2006 at 6:15 PM | PERMALINK

Stranger,
Perhaps there should be some control of Press Secretary-types running Sunday morning talk shows like Snuffalupagus too. That would be interesting, if arguably unconstitutional.

I prefer the expert-journalism of The Economist. People trained in a particular field who have, you know, actual expertise reporting on issues that deserve sophisticated analysis.

Or we could stick with the J-School grads who are generalists and seem to get basic issues of fact backward.

Either way, really.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 6:20 PM | PERMALINK

So you think the press, which serves an important funciton in a democratic society and thus is protected in part by the very first Amendment to the Constitution, is perfect?

oh my. what a glorious strawman you'e constructed!

So be it.

and an impressive take-down, too!

one can only imagine how you'd fare against a real person!

Posted by: cleek on March 5, 2006 at 6:24 PM | PERMALINK

Hey wingnuts, your pathetic denial over YOUR devastating loses in Vietnam and, now, Iraq is quaintly charming.

Keep your chins up! Never give in, never admit you were wrong! You are The Little Engine That Could!


Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 6:24 PM | PERMALINK

Enter Blakey to illustrate the point of how some on the Left think that a political victory might spring forth from the long-sought military loss in Iraq.

Just like after Viet Nam, I guess. 'Cause that loss led to all those Dem Presidents and a strengthening of Dem majorities in both houses of Congress.

Or something.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

"Hey wingnuts, your pathetic denial over YOUR devastating loses in Vietnam and, now, Iraq is quaintly charming.

Keep your chins up! Never give in, never admit you were wrong! You are The Little Engine That Could!

Posted by: Blakey"

silliest post of the day. don't forget, blakey, that the term wingnut can be preceded by not only "right" but "left" as well. just something to think about.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 6:29 PM | PERMALINK

Birkel, I said nothing about politics, you are just projecting your own thought process.

Brian, no, the left wing is typically referred to as "moonbat", "communists" or "traitor" by their loud, overbearing detractors.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

blakey,

of course no loud overbearing detractors operate on the left side of the political spectrum. i have to concede moonbat. but traitor is thrown about rather indiscriminately, and communism is after all a leftist ideology.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 6:43 PM | PERMALINK

If you're not speaking of politics, why type the following?

"Hey wingnuts, your pathetic denial over YOUR devastating loses(sic) in Vietnam and, now, Iraq is quaintly charming."

If it's not about politics and your American then it is "OUR losses" and not "YOURS".

It's the division by you of the American electorate into two teams that makes me think you intended a political message.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 6:43 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, the media deserves a lot of blame for getting us in this mess. And it looks as though they (the media) are trying to help us into Iran. The New York Times today is advising us on how close Iran is to a bomb. You know what, if Isreal, Pakistan, India, Russia, China are not worried, we should keep our jingoistic ass out of it. We,ve laready found out its a rough neighborhood.

Posted by: darby1936 on March 5, 2006 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

I had no idea the press actually fought wars. I must have missed the exploits of that fighting journalist brigade. Are they anything like like the Seabees?

Posted by: Scott on March 5, 2006 at 6:51 PM | PERMALINK

"I had no idea the press actually fought wars. I must have missed the exploits of that fighting journalist brigade. Are they anything like like the Seabees?
Posted by: Scott"

dumbest comment of the day. sure, how could the media possibly have any effect on anything? jeez.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 6:54 PM | PERMALINK

Joseph Goebbels reborn. Same argument, but no cathedral of lights.

Posted by: skip on March 5, 2006 at 6:55 PM | PERMALINK

Hollywood, 2018.

The pitch: Captain John J Lee, a known descendant of General Lee, knows for damn sure that the crew aboard that downed Blackhawk outside Baghdad in late 2003 did not in fact perish in a fiery inferno (of flames and pyres), but were taken captive by Saddam's henchmen, and held incommunicado for almost fifteen years, where they have been tortured and forced to eat unusual Arab foods. Worse, the arrogant Pentagon brass, and the elite liberal media has been covering up what they know. With the backing of an eccentric but righetous Texas billionaire, Lee, a former Delta Force officer, assembles a rough and tumble team of old buddies and fearless riff raff, to re-invade Islamist Iraq, and rescue America's forgotten heros.

Starring an aging Kid Rock!

Posted by: The Blue Nomad on March 5, 2006 at 6:58 PM | PERMALINK

Like a fly landing on shit, you can always count on Glenn to shift responsibility from his side for their shortcomings.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 7:02 PM | PERMALINK

"Like a fly landing on shit, you can always count on Glenn to shift responsibility from his side for their shortcomings.
Posted by: Randy Paul"

cogent analysis, that.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:08 PM | PERMALINK

dumbest comment of the day. sure, how could the media possibly have any effect on anything? jeez.

Even assuming, arguendo, that the American media printed nothing but a litany of doom and gloom about Iraq, and always put everything in the worst possible light, what concrete physical effec what that actually have on the situation over there? What is the cause and effect in the right-wing's mind about this? If, as they believe, Iraq is paradise on earth (while also, paradoxically, remaining the central front in the war on terror), then shouldn't it remain paradise on earth no mattter what the US media says about it? After all, a car bomb won't go off merely because the NY Times writes that a car bomb went off, will it?

Or have they slipped so far down their post-modernist rabbit hole that to them the media picture of something is actually the reality itself? That merely saying something is true is the same thing as actually making it true, as we see from many of their "is not! IS TOO!" arguments here. There is no truth -- what matters is only how we portray the truth....

Posted by: Stefan on March 5, 2006 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

So you think the press, which serves an important funciton in a democratic society and thus is protected in part by the very first Amendment to the Constitution, is perfect?

Really, where would intellectually dishonest right-wing commentators -- but I repeat myself -- like Birkel be without the trusty dishonest paraphrase?

Posted by: Gregory on March 5, 2006 at 7:12 PM | PERMALINK

Brian, the right is loud and overbearing because they have the megaphones and a "Mighty Whirlitzer" and the resources to pay for mass propoganda that is not available to those on the left.

"The media" is right wing because it is owned by the right wing. All the Dan Rathers of the world (and he is pretty middle of the road, by the way) don't change that right wing tilt because they are just employees who work at the pleasure of their rich, right wing bosses.

Do you think the line worker at GM make corporate policy for that car company? If you do, then you have a very strange view of how things work. Sort of sounds like some communist worker's paradise if the little employees are the one who make the big descisions.

This right wing propaganda about a so-called liberal media is projection and cover for what they are actually themselves doing.
The idea that the workers (i.e. Democratic journalists) control the industries (i.e. "the media") that they work for must be the strangest conspiracy theory ever put forth.

Sorry, but I actually believe that we are still a capitalist country and the owners (i.e. Rupert Murdoch, Scaife etc.) are the ones who get to decide.

No, the right wing dominates media, not because they represent the views of most Americans but because they run things in general, like it that way and are loath to allow any changes that actual democracy would call for.

Peace.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 7:17 PM | PERMALINK

stefan,

think back to the aftermath of the tet offensive. militarily, it turned out to be a victory for the u.s.. the picture painted by the coverage was that of a defeat. media coverage cannot turn "paradise on earth" into a civil war, but it can turn victory in to seeming defeat. vietnam was lost at home more than it was lost in the field. the msm seem to have the vietnam template in place for coverage of iraq. it must be a failure, so the coverage must show failure. once again, i urge those posting here to read what ralph peters, michael totten, and the brookings institute have to say. you could also check iraq the model as well as healing iraq.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:27 PM | PERMALINK

hey fat white guy, you really served two tours in the 'nam? was that during or after the war? i mean if you really served, you'd know that soldiers and their leaders win or lose wars. to blame the media is like a football team blaming a loss on the fams (oh, if only section 130 had cheered us louder, we woulda won the super bowl). what did the media do wrong? report the 2,000+ killed? the thousands more maimed? the near civil war? yeah, there are some quiet parts of the country, but i defy you to walk around baghdad unescorted. odds are you'd be either dead or a hostage within 24 hours. was dad dumb not to go to baghdad 14 years ago, knowing that to do so would just unstabilize iraq? or was jr dumb not to follow the wisdom of his dad. please explain to us how this war has done anyone this side of al qaeda any good? original thinking required.

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:27 PM | PERMALINK

gee brian, i guess the press musta done purdy darn good in wwii!

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

"gee brian, i guess the press musta done purdy darn good in wwii!
Posted by: mudwall jackson"

mudwall, could you possibly have an intelligent comment, or are we only to get this sort of dumbassery?

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

damn!!! to think what would have happened if gen. lee had only used the press at gettysburg the way old andy jackson used them at new orleans? didn't ernie pyle lead the assault at normandy while edward r murrow piloted b-17 raids over berlin! and boy! the ink-stained wretches were amazing at stalingrad. sorry. i'm wrong. pyle won midway.

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:33 PM | PERMALINK

maybe we should just disband the army. i mean we've got cnn on our side! and fox news!!!

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:35 PM | PERMALINK

Brian,

My comment is snarky but true. Glenn has been beating this drum for years, whether calling those of us who opposed the Iraq War "Objectively pro-Saddam" or comparing my side to the "Hitler/Stalin pact", Glenn has consistently demonstrated his nasty, ad hominem side. This is just another example of his inability to place any responsibility on his side's shortcomings. Don't blame me for Glenn's pettiness.

As for your bringing up Michael Totten, while I admire Totten's ability to put his money where his mouth is (and envy his having the means to do so), he's in Iraqi Kurdistan, which for all intents and purposes was out of Baathist and insurgent hands for years before the current war.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 7:36 PM | PERMALINK

where do these people come from? at least reagan took responsibility for the beirut bombing incident. i guess today's conservatives don't know the meaning of the word.

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:39 PM | PERMALINK

The media isn't liberal or conservative, its corporate and state controlled. Bush lost the territorial pissings in Iraq. WMDS? 911? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lies.mp3
The War Party should be brought to swift justice, Republicans AND Democrats. What the hell happened to all of you? Americans are cowards! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!USA!

Posted by: No Peace With Occupation on March 5, 2006 at 7:40 PM | PERMALINK

vietnam was lost at home more than it was lost in the field.

It was lost because the US used the template of the Cold War for what was more a nationalist struggle for independence.

The French media and the Japanese media were not responsible for the Vietnamese beating back these foreign forces.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 7:40 PM | PERMALINK
how could the media possibly have any effect on anything? jeez. Posted by: Brian
Remember the Maine?

Controlling information has a tremendous effect. That is why propaganda is effective. That is why Republican propagandists like the Rev Moon, Murdock, and Schaife all support money-losing newspapers.

Posted by: Mike on March 5, 2006 at 7:41 PM | PERMALINK

rp,

if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable.

if you can't accept michael totten's reports, what about ralph peters or brookings or omar?

do you think that most the msm is reporting without any agenda whatsoever? i find that conclusion less likely to be true than i used to believe.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:44 PM | PERMALINK

Now for the main event...the battle royale for the biggest dick...

In this corner, in the shiny yelll-ooow leeee-ooo-tard,

The aaaa-maaaa-zing

Misssss-terrrrrr Meeeee-deeeeee-aaaaahhh!

[The crowd roars...]

And in this corner, in the red-polka-dotted pan-teeeez,

The original In-staaa-idddd-deee-ittt,

Birrrrr-kel the Jerrrrrr-kul!

[Clapping rises...beer cans are thrown...]

Posted by: WWF on March 5, 2006 at 7:47 PM | PERMALINK

think back to the aftermath of the tet offensive. militarily, it turned out to be a victory for the u.s.. the picture painted by the coverage was that of a defeat.

Nonsense. While the US may have won the engagements in the field during Tet, militarily it was a loss for the US because by being able to strike simultaneously all over the country, even in the US embassy in the heart of Saigon, the VC were able to put to lie the US claim that it was winning and had the country under control. That was their victory. In a guerilla war the insurgents don't have to win any battle at all, they just have to be willing to hold out longer than the occupiers, and Tet showed that they were able to do that.

once again, i urge those posting here to read what ralph peters, michael totten, and the brookings institute have to say. you could also check iraq the model as well as healing iraq.

Once again, I urge those wingnuts posting here to either (i) enlist and get their asses over to Iraq, or, if they're too old for that, (i) sign up with a US contractor or an NGO and go over to Iraq to volunteer or paint some schools or something.

Posted by: Stefan on March 5, 2006 at 7:50 PM | PERMALINK

"It was lost because the US used the template of the Cold War for what was more a nationalist struggle for independence.

The French media and the Japanese media were not responsible for the Vietnamese beating back these foreign forces.
Posted by: Randy Paul"

the vietnamese didn't beat back anybody. that war was lost at home, whether you admit it or not.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:50 PM | PERMALINK

"if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable."

No, it doesn't and it's intellectually lazy to make that argument. It means I favored other means to remove Saddam. Regional pressure, support of exile groups (although with Chalabi and his deceitfulness, I would have looked elsewhere).

In fact, I was working on human rights issues in Iraq as an AI volunteer leader when Don Rumsfled was having tea with him in 1983.

Your comment has an air of arrogance in it. You imply that your way is the only way. Now the region is becoming more and more unstable; just look at Iran.

I can accept the reports of George Packer, who supported the war. I can accept the word of Michael Ware who has spent extensive time in Iraq. I would probably be able to accept the word of Jill Carroll if she hadn't been kidnapped.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 7:52 PM | PERMALINK

brian,

a lot of things go into winning or losing a war. but basically, they're won or lost on the field of battle and by those at the strategic level. you can say all you want about tet but that war was lost before 99 percent of americans had ever heard of a place called vietnam. anticommunism couldn't create a country out of whole cloth. it couldn't motivate people to defend a corrupt government that didn't represent them in any way, shape or form.

and interestingly, it seems the supporters of this war are flying the white flag even now, judging by the reaction i've read here today.

Posted by: mudwall jackson on March 5, 2006 at 7:54 PM | PERMALINK

Brian,

Time for a history lesson. The Vietnamese beat back the French at Dien Bien Phu. That, unlike what you wrote is a fact, not an opinion.

Stefan's comments on Tet are dead on.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 7:54 PM | PERMALINK

stefan, you make my point for me. tet ended in a military victory for the u.s.. claims by losers would have meant nothing if they had not been trumpeted so strongly here.

you demean yourself by running to the "chickenhawk" argument. are points of view that differ from your own simply to be dismissed because of their inconvenience?

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 7:58 PM | PERMALINK

why not blame the media? that list master d put up is a great start. for the most part, the media *hasn't* been doing it's job. access superceded responsible journalism. of you writers and editors out there, how many great stories were sat upon, or ended up buried in order to present the rah rah illusions of 'fantasyland'?

the first time many americans got a glimpse of how bad things really are, and the possible media complicity in all of it, was Katrina -- and what appeared to be an outright mutiny on the part of the media against the 'official story' this time.

it's time to accept some of that blame one's self, on the media's part.

Posted by: a reader on March 5, 2006 at 8:01 PM | PERMALINK

"Time for a history lesson. The Vietnamese beat back the French at Dien Bien Phu. That, unlike what you wrote is a fact, not an opinion.

Stefan's comments on Tet are dead on.
Posted by: Randy Paul"

fair point. i thought we were discussing a later period of time. my comments refer to the fact that vietnam was lost politically, not militarily.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:03 PM | PERMALINK
if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable.

Brian,

Could you think for a minute before writing? There's a chance you'd avoid sounding so perfectly helpless.

By your lights, George Bush is "objectively pro-Kim Jung-Il," and he's also "objectively pro-Iran," and "objectively pro-Chavez." The list goes on.

"The label seems reasonable."

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:06 PM | PERMALINK

"Your comment has an air of arrogance in it. You imply that your way is the only way. Now the region is becoming more and more unstable; just look at Iran.
Posted by: Randy Paul"
well, rp, god knows that none of your comments have any air of arrogance. i've implied nothing that you claim. you simply are too ready to infer whatever you like.
as far as instability goes, it might not be such a bad thing. i'm not terribly wedded to old notions in that topic.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:07 PM | PERMALINK

"Could you think for a minute before writing? There's a chance you'd avoid sounding so perfectly helpless.

By your lights, George Bush is "objectively pro-Kim Jung-Il," and he's also "objectively pro-Iran," and "objectively pro-Chavez." The list goes on.

"The label seems reasonable."
Posted by: obscure"

o,
i sound helpless? did you by any chance read that nonsense before you posted it? it is nothing but illogical conflations.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:12 PM | PERMALINK

Just for the record also, if the media played a role in Vietnam it was in exposing the deceit that the Johnson administration engaged in in covering up the level of escalation in Vietnam, false body counts and the false reports of progress. Indeed, by the time Tet occurred, the phrase credibility gap was already in use and the public had a right to know, if things were going so well, why did Westmoreland ask for 206,000 more troops the public wondered.

So if the media plaed a role, the role was in getting out the truth.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 8:13 PM | PERMALINK
stefan, you make my point for me. tet ended in a military victory for the u.s.. claims by losers would have meant nothing if they had not been trumpeted so strongly here.

Brian,

You are helpless.

It was not the "claims" of the VC that caused Tet to be devastating to the US position. On the contrary, it was the claims of the US gov't prior to Tet that were so devastating.

Tet showed that our gov't version of events was completely bogus. You see, Nations, not just armies, go to war. And our national morale hit the toilet after Tet.

Why? Because as a nation we did not think victory worth all the bloodshed. And thank god... the American public was showing some true common sense, some true human decency.

As I have said before, a US victory in Vietnam would have required a massive genocide against the Vietnamese. As it was, 2 million Vietnamese died. How many more thousands upon thousands would have perished if we had mindlessly pushed ahead?

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:17 PM | PERMALINK

Brian,

Heres what you wrote:

if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable.

I explained the difference, but apparently it is lost on you. Your comment is wrong. It does not mean I approve of keeping Saddam in power and it's intellectually lazy for you to make that argument.

People who disagree about means can agree about the ends.

As for the instability issue, if you think a nuclear armed Iran "might not be such a bad thing," I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't read what I wrote very carefully.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 8:19 PM | PERMALINK

i sound helpless? did you by any chance read that nonsense before you posted it? it is nothing but illogical conflations.

It is "illogical?"

OK. Then I guess your argument was "illogical" also. Because all I did was apply your argument.

If you disagree, then explain yourself, or STFU.

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:20 PM | PERMALINK

The right assumes it should have won in Vietnam and Iraq because of the material advantages and horrific weapons they had at their disposal.

In doing so, the right reveals it's true faith, worship of the power of the almighty buck and the things that it can buy.

Has it ever occured to you wingnuts that they beat you fair and square, with pluck and human ingenuity and faith (and terrible sacrifice), just like David beat Goliath?

Your godless materialism sucks.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

"I explained the difference, but apparently it is lost on you. Your comment is wrong. It does not mean I approve of keeping Saddam in power and it's intellectually lazy for you to make that argument.

People who disagree about means can agree about the ends.
Posted by: Randy Paul"

terribly convenient argument, that. look, if you opposed the iraq war, then you opposed toppling saddam hussein. by what other means was it going to happen?

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:28 PM | PERMALINK

Not that Blakey's rooting for the other side.

Just that he admires their "pluck and human ingenuity" is all...

Meanwhile, you could at least use a capital 'G' if you want to criticize materialism.

Posted by: Birkel on March 5, 2006 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know, Brian, but it is the truth, it is a logical argument and a good bit more intellectually honest than your attempt to make the case that those oppose your method support the other side.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 5, 2006 at 8:33 PM | PERMALINK

by what other means was it going to happen?

Gee, I dunno. Hey, Khomeini, do you know any other means of unseating a Middle Eastern autocrat?

Posted by: The Shah on March 5, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

Brian, by any measure, Iraq was better off with Saddam. We should have contained him like we did the Soviet Union for 45 years.

Invading other countries because you don't like their rulers is what the bad guys do.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 8:37 PM | PERMALINK

"I don't know, Brian, but it is the truth, it is a logical argument and a good bit more intellectually honest than your attempt to make the case that those oppose your method support the other side.
Posted by: Randy Paul"

rp,
it is not more intellectually honest. it's just easier. that's the worst part.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:37 PM | PERMALINK

terribly convenient argument, that. look, if you opposed the iraq war, then you opposed toppling saddam hussein. by what other means was it going to happen?

Maybe you can explain why toppling Saddam was more important than the GWOT? Maybe you can explain why Iraq is better off in the throes of civil war? Maybe you can explain why the US is better off with its military over-stretched and pinned down in a quagmire? Maybe you can explain why we shouldn't invade every country under dictatorial rule?

And...

Maybe you can explain how Saddam was a threat to the US.

Or maybe you're simply a nitwit.

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:38 PM | PERMALINK

Birkel, no, I'm on OUR side, the side of all people to be independant and free from foreign domination.

The fact that you wingnuts got so interested in "nation building" (remember what Bush said about that) after Bush saw Iraqs oil and got a hard-on
just shows how lacking in any principles (except Me First, Fuck You) the modern right wing is.

Remember, "Don't tread on me"?!

Well, don't.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

"Brian, by any measure, Iraq was better off with Saddam. We should have contained him like we did the Soviet Union for 45 years.
Invading other countries because you don't like their rulers is what the bad guys do.
Posted by: Blakey"

by any measure? what sort of fantasy world do you inhabit? the only iraqis who would agree with you are those sunnis who benefitted from his perfidy.
iraq was a proven (yes that's right - proven) threat to this country. you of course, opposed our involvement in the balkans?

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:47 PM | PERMALINK

Birkel: Meanwhile, you could at least use a capital 'G' if you want to criticize materialism.

Capital 'G' is not a requirement, my child.

Posted by: god on March 5, 2006 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

it is not more intellectually honest. it's just easier. that's the worst part.

If your words have meaning, Brian, then the essence of what you're saying is that non-violence is "easier" and somehow morally inferior to violence as a means of pursuing one's interests.

Whereas from my perspective violence is the result of rashness, impatience and lack of foresight into the consequences of one's actions.

That is why US law prohibits it's citizens from 'taking the law into their own hands' and settling private issues violently. That is similarly why international law prohibits unprovoked aggression. Our invasion of Iraq was as unprovoked as it gets.

Violence has consequences. But that is hard to see if you're unwiling to look. (And how many more millions of Vietnamese would you have been happy to kill for your 'victory?')

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:53 PM | PERMALINK

"iraq was a proven (yes that's right - proven) threat to this country."

Unbelievable! There are really people who honestly believe this nonsense?

Poor Brian is one child left behind.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 8:55 PM | PERMALINK
iraq was a proven (yes that's right - proven) threat to this country

OK, then prove it.

Nitwit.

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 8:56 PM | PERMALINK

The knaves who so willfully parroted the Rovian spin to gnerate the war mania to start the war will now find themsleves placed on the meat-hook by their users.

The most classic trait of a user is to take the pawn and make him king once it is time to mete out responsibility.

-GSD

Posted by: Granite State Destroyer on March 5, 2006 at 8:58 PM | PERMALINK

"Maybe you can explain why toppling Saddam was more important than the GWOT? Maybe you can explain why Iraq is better off in the throes of civil war? Maybe you can explain why the US is better off with its military over-stretched and pinned down in a quagmire? Maybe you can explain why we shouldn't invade every country under dictatorial rule?

And...

Maybe you can explain how Saddam was a threat to the US.

Or maybe you're simply a nitwit."
Posted by: obscure"

okay, one more post before i go.

toppling saddam hussein was part and parcel of fighting the gwot. you may want to read upthread a bit. iraq is not in a civil war, even as much as you may widh that it were. what quagmire, exactly are you referring to? it's bad enough that you are stupid/duped/whatever enough to believe the quagmire stuff. that said, when you ask (apparently seriously) why we don't just invade every dictatorship, i can only conclude that you are an abject imbecile. if you think that we have no reason to invade iraq becaus we have not attacked china/venezuela/whomever, i can conclude that you are an idiot.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 8:58 PM | PERMALINK

You can go now, Brian, since you proved you were lying about proof that Iraq was any threat to the US.

You can go in shame and humiliation.

When you get a little bit older, do come back.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 9:02 PM | PERMALINK

Brian, They had they had drinking water, they had electicity, they had schools, they had jobs, they had civil order.

Now they have chaos, torture and death.

They knew if they minded their own business, Saddam would leave them alone. Under Saddam the only people who had to fear were political dissidents (people who in this country you call traitors).

Now, everyone is afraid. Even the supposed leaders of the country live in fear for their lives and get bumped off like flies is the choas and mounting civil war.

If you think Iraquis are happy we came or want us to stay, you live in a fantasy land. If you think Bush will give up his 15 permanent millitary bases in the supposed free Republic of Iraq, then you are living in a fantasy land.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 9:03 PM | PERMALINK

"OK, then prove it.

Nitwit.
Posted by: obscure"

iraq's participation in the 1993 wtc bombing. iraq's attempt to assasinate the first pres bush. iraq's attempts to shoot down our fighter planes that were enforcing a cease fire to which it had agreed. iraq's training of terrorists throughout the 1990's. iraq's finacial support for terrorists throughout the 1990's. is that enough, nitwit?

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 9:04 PM | PERMALINK

HEY! How about those Colorado Repubs breaking the law by brazenly using uniformed military personnel at a political event for Marilyn Musgrave?

We don't give a god-damn about turning the US military into a partisan political tool, and we don't give a god-damn about the laws and military regs prohibiting it!

I love it!!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 9:04 PM | PERMALINK

"You can go now, Brian, since you proved you were lying about proof that Iraq was any threat to the US.

You can go in shame and humiliation.

When you get a little bit older, do come back.
Posted by: Joel"

i guess i just can't resist. i'll see you soon, joel. your argument is so strong that i can't refute it. try to be a little less of an obvous moron and you'll do better.

bye all.

Posted by: Brian on March 5, 2006 at 9:08 PM | PERMALINK

Brian: if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power?

Why do my children think I am impotent?
Saddam was my child and vengeance is mine, not yours.
You are poor judges and should leave such matters to me.
Your intervention was not required and was against my will.
Yet you will reap what you have sown.
The law of this world commands it.

In my kingdom, you may enter only through love.
Beware of the path of fear.

Posted by: god on March 5, 2006 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

iraq was a proven (yes that's right - proven) threat to this country

mere text cannot express the laughter this generates in me.

you're either a total idiot or a very good troll.

either way, you're a funny muthafukka. keep it up, skippy. laughter is the best medicine.

Posted by: cleek on March 5, 2006 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

"i guess i just can't resist."

heh.

I knew you couldn't. Lying is just in your blood. You do it reflexively.


"try to be a little less of an obvous moron and you'll do better."

You set the bar so high, Brian.

Like I said, do come back when you grow up a bit.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 9:13 PM | PERMALINK

I blame the media for taking it so easy on Rumsfeld. If he had been more fully exposed, he'd be gone and someone competent might be in charge.

Posted by: Owen on March 5, 2006 at 9:21 PM | PERMALINK
iraq's participation in the 1993 wtc bombing. iraq's attempt to assasinate the first pres bush. iraq's attempts to shoot down our fighter planes that were enforcing a cease fire to which it had agreed. iraq's training of terrorists throughout the 1990's. iraq's finacial support for terrorists throughout the 1990's. is that enough, nitwit?

I think your accusations could charitably be described as ludicrous, Brian.

If you have any convincing evidence, we'd love to see it.

But I'm afraid the CIA disagreed with you...

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0217-12.htm

Posted by: obscure on March 5, 2006 at 9:22 PM | PERMALINK

Did you see Brian get his ass kicked all over the block by these panty-waisted libs?

Holy shit!

I love it!!!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 9:27 PM | PERMALINK

Butbutbut...Hillary still supports the War! Her powerful vaginal muscles will defeat the terrorists!

Posted by: Howlin' Howie Dean on March 5, 2006 at 9:32 PM | PERMALINK

"iraq's participation in the 1993 wtc bombing."

Nonsense. No evidence.

"iraq's attempt to assasinate the first pres bush."

Wishful thinking.

"iraq's attempts to shoot down our fighter planes that were enforcing a cease fire to which it had agreed."

And that threatened US national security . . . how?

"iraq's training of terrorists throughout the 1990's."

Myth. Sorry you fell for that one.

"iraq's finacial support for terrorists throughout the 1990's."

Terrorists that threatened US national security? Got proof? Didn't think so.

"is that enough, nitwit?"

"nitwit" would work as your signiture, Brian. You certainly deliver the goods.

Posted by: Joel on March 5, 2006 at 9:33 PM | PERMALINK

Fat White Guy:
I did two tours in Viet Nam and bled real blood

Sure you did, tough guy. Sure you did.

A word to the wise...reading DC comics "The 'Nam" and being an avid Doom player doesn't make you a combat veteran.

Posted by: Spanky on March 5, 2006 at 9:34 PM | PERMALINK

The GOP: The "take responsibility for your actions" party

Posted by: chuck on March 5, 2006 at 9:37 PM | PERMALINK

The wingnut's reference to Hillary's vaginal muscles had nothing to do with sexism. The wingnut's obsession with Hillary has nothing to do with sexism. The wingnut is definitely not, NOT!, a sexist, insecure man with a small penis.

Posted by: Blakey on March 5, 2006 at 9:40 PM | PERMALINK

I take great comfort in the dishonesty peddled by GOP apologists like Reynolds and republicrat.

I have regularly recommended people to read the Brookings institution's reports on Iraq, and I did so today. There is nothing dishonest in recommending that people read all the facts from a pretty reliable and unbiased source. I recommend all people to "take comfort" from the Brookings Institution. Also, I recommend reading all the reports by Jonathan Dworkin posted on the politicalanimal blog.

Posted by: republicrat on March 5, 2006 at 9:46 PM | PERMALINK

I'm so fat, my dingleberries have dingleberries!

I love it!

Posted by: Fat White Guy on March 5, 2006 at 9:54 PM | PERMALINK

The press had better hope we win this war, because if we don't, a lot of people will blame the media.

An oldie but a goodie. This is the same line of bull shit they fed us about the Vietnam War as well...

Posted by: E. Nonee Moose on March 5, 2006 at 9:57 PM | PERMALINK

The dreamland these people inhabit has become simply pathological

That just isn't a smart comment. Must have been the fatigue.

Posted by: republicrat on March 5, 2006 at 10:04 PM | PERMALINK

republicrat: That just isn't a smart comment. Must have been the fatigue.

A mistake followed by another mistake does not heal the first or sanctify the second.

Posted by: god on March 5, 2006 at 10:17 PM | PERMALINK

Be stewards, not makers of war.
Be truthful and you will set each other free.
You cannot give what you have not received.
Be wise and you can provide wisdom.
Be calm and you can spread peace.
Listen more, speak less. Be and then do.
Be loving and you can overcome all things.
This is the path to peace and wisdom.

Forgive when fear leads you to fight and you will be made whole.
Give me your fear and I will strengthen you.
Dare to be meek to make your weaker siblings strong.
All are my children.

Remember to remember this.

Posted by: god on March 5, 2006 at 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

Someone tell Reynolds to take it up Buckley and Fukuyama.

And tell him to take it up with this administration which manufactured the country's consent for the war.

And who didn't bother to plan for their beloved war properly.

And didn't count on a civil war, despite the fact that three different factions comprise Iraq.

Posted by: Robert S. on March 5, 2006 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

What a f***ing putz. His own hands are so bloody he cannot wash away the stench.

Posted by: della Rovere on March 5, 2006 at 11:02 PM | PERMALINK

the vietnamese didn't beat back anybody. that war was lost at home, whether you admit it or not.

what utter horseshit.

Posted by: renato on March 6, 2006 at 12:04 AM | PERMALINK

Everyone knows you cannot defeat the US militarily. Only way is to have the useful idiots defeat the public will politically.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 6, 2006 at 12:20 AM | PERMALINK

Didn't read all the thread so similar sentiments might have been made already, but.. I read another messageboard that has a dozen young Republicans in their 20s and early 30s. I've been arguing, often violently, with them for four years about what a disasterously bad idea the invasion of Iraq would be, and has been.

Not once have I got the impression that they've ever seriously thought about signing up themselves.

No doubt the US is full of these types, and if the US 'loses' in Iraq I'm sure they'll just blame it on liberals and the media. It'd be amusing if it wasn't so pitiful.

Posted by: Renwick on March 6, 2006 at 1:18 AM | PERMALINK

if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable.

Are you pro-murder of pregnant ladies? Or maybe you supported the Iraq war because it maimed and slaughtered thousands of little kids, but the killing of moms to be was a price that, while regrettable, had to be paid.

Not that I would call you a baby killer, but the logic of that label is pretty inescapable.

Posted by: Boronx on March 6, 2006 at 1:23 AM | PERMALINK

FatWhiteGuy, if you're a two-tour Vietnam Veteran it sure surprises me that you'd be defending this war. Did you think there was one damn thing worth bleeding for in Vietnam? It sure wasn't worth one of my legs. That whole policy was failed from the beginning back at the end of WWII, just as this one was doomed to fail by the lies and deceptions and wishful thinking it was founded on. Bad policy begets failure and has never had any other result. Bad policy managed by incompetent (or in the case of this administration, absent) leadership just makes it that much more painful.

What this administration and this war are doing to the fine men and women of our military, their families, and our country as a whole should sicken and enrage anyone who served in Vietnam. Our covenant with those that serve is that this country will never ask them to put their lives on the line without good cause, and Vietnam wasn't worth a single American life. There was also no need for our military to be in harm's way in Iraq, none. No WMD's, no links to al-Queda, just a secular authoritarian regime ruling a fourth-rate country with a weak army.

When our policy was to go into Afghanistan and root out al-Queda and their Taliban supporters as well as try to help rebuild the country (with the support of most of the world) we were on the right track and largely successful because it was good policy to go after your enemies where they are, deny them a base from which to attack you again, and do so with a broad and dedicated coalition of allies. Based on that criteria, how did invading Iraq further the administration's stated goal of preventing another attack on our country?

Posted by: garryowen on March 6, 2006 at 1:31 AM | PERMALINK

Yes, garry, you are so right about the dishonor this gang brings on our military. I can't think of a single bigger indignity a nation can visit on its own people, short of totalitarian atrocities a la Hitler (which they are steadily working towards), than to use a citizen army to implement wilfully wrong-headed policy with great loss of life attached. The young are sacrificed when they are casualties, and the survivors are sacrificed when they realize that they have been tools for evil.

Only a very few, I believe, never come to recognize what they have been part of, and those few turn into Swift Boaters or Fat White Guys. They should be strapped to a chair and forced to watch "Winter Soldier" a hundred times or so.

Posted by: Kenji on March 6, 2006 at 1:47 AM | PERMALINK

There is nothing dishonest in recommending that people read all the facts from a pretty reliable and unbiased source.

There is everything dishonest, on the other hand, of accusing Kevin of having no hope and criticizing others based on their having hope. I notice that you -- yes, dishonestly! -- left out the bit I quoted from you in your defense. Presumably, of course, because you can't defend its honesty, as it lacks any.

At the risk of repeating myself -- and as if you didn't know, republicrat -- Kevin's criticism isn't on people who have "hope" the war in Iraq can be won. His criticism is on people who have doggedly ignored Bush's mendacity and incompetence -- the very things that made any "hope" of a victory in Iraq foolish indeed -- and now that the fact of failure in Iraq resulting from Bush's mendacity and incompetence has become too obvious to ignore, are seeking to cast blame not on themselves and the president they supported, but on others.

Needless to say, as has been observed countless times, the members of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders are brave enough to support a war in which other people shed the blood, and which the President insists on paying for by a tax cut. They're also quick to associate themselves with the glory of the victory they imagine.

But no amount of elections can change the fact that a government that can't keep order is simply not legitimate. Thomas freakin' Hobbes recognized this fact back in the 17th Century, and it's simply astonishing that Bush cultists keep trying to wish that uncomfortable fact away.

Posted by: Gregory on March 6, 2006 at 2:26 AM | PERMALINK

....come to think of it, though, since people like the Bush Cultists try to pretend there's no such thing as a social contract, perhaps their denial is not so surprising after all.

Posted by: Gregory on March 6, 2006 at 2:28 AM | PERMALINK

I'd be wondering how much FWG, and FF, and some others here are getting paid by Rummy to misdirect the direction of the conversation thread.

Because, it seems clear to me that what Thomas Jefferson said about the need to "...water the tree of liberty..." is his legacy, his vision, his WARNING not to wait too long.

This is all fine, showing off our collective wit, yes. Self-satisfying shooting idiot Bushites in a barrel, so to speak. Unless that is what they desire.

We should be cleaning barrels, stocking up, getting ready to BACK up one another. Taking solemn grasp of OUR country. Putting down the rabid, sick and evil.

I'm just sayin'.....

Posted by: farang on March 6, 2006 at 3:55 AM | PERMALINK

gerryowen,
You're right about Nam. What DID the common man get from it? Nothing!
We got our asses kicked; the supposedly best equiped, best trained fighting men the world had seen at the time. Why did we lose with all that potential? Simple!
Leadership! We had none; or rather we had leadership that had ulterior motives for Big Business and Politics. You know it, I know it, all of us that suffered through it know how really screwed up it was from Johnson/Nixon down to Westmoreland and Company. And the lies we were told, and told to believe and trust them!
If a well trained but unit is sent by incompetent leadership to engage a superior foe the result is sadky predictable.
We lost Vietnam not because of hippies protesting or the public not backing the troops, we lost because too many old men wanted glory for themselves and money for their friends.
We have the same today in Iraq. The more subtle reason for the war was to exonerate Daddy Bush's failure. Cheney was and is the prime mover in the monetary aspect of this war on terror.
Again, we soldiers got and get nothing for our sacrifice; not so for America's Businessmen.
I wonder how they'll show their appreciation; higher prices or another war?

Posted by: Father Tyme on March 6, 2006 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

I wonder how they'll show their appreciation; higher prices or another war?
Posted by: Father Tyme

Probably both. War Biz is so damned remunerative.

Farther away you are from actual bombs and such the fatter the profits.

Posted by: CFShep on March 6, 2006 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

"But they don't actually want to give someone a chance to serve his/her country."

The only things stopping you from serving your country are your own cowardice and an unhealthy fixation on FWG's anus. Don't tell and even you can serve in Iraq.

Posted by: solar on March 6, 2006 at 9:41 AM | PERMALINK

I'm just sayin'.....
Posted by: farang

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."
- Edward Abbey.

Posted by: CFShep on March 6, 2006 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

if you opposed the iraq war, does that not make you in favor of leaving saddam in power? i might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-saddam," but the label seems reasonable.

If you oppose going to war with China right now, does that not make you in favor of leaving the Chinese Communist party in power? I might not characterize that position as "objectively pro-Chinese Communist," but the label seems reasonable.

Posted by: Stefan on March 6, 2006 at 10:41 AM | PERMALINK

The MSM wants the US to lose the war and it is so powerful it can turn the tide of war and make that happen; the MSM wanted Bush out of office but it was so powerless than it could't prevent Bush from getting re-elected.

This is the type of bizzaro logic that infests American conservatives.

They are dopey beyond belief and their ability to embrace and spout utterly contradictory propositions is astounding.

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 6, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

They are dopey beyond belief and their ability to embrace and spout utterly contradictory propositions is astounding.
Posted by: Advocate for God

Our favorite poster child for cognitive dissonance, drw, is still over on the Kafka thread arguing with thin air.

Hoping Kev will move the thread to archive and take rdw with it.

Posted by: CFShep on March 6, 2006 at 10:57 AM | PERMALINK

Everyone knows you cannot defeat the US militarily. Only way is to have the useful idiots defeat the public will politically.

Shorter FF: Everyone knows that when I win it is because I am great and when I lose it is because you betrayed me.

*cough*

...can somebody change my diaper?

Posted by: obscure on March 6, 2006 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

CFShep: Our favorite poster child for cognitive dissonance, drw, is still over on the Kafka thread arguing with thin air.

Via Josh Marshall, Bush is polling 37% in Indiana.

That should cheer rdw up.

"Photography concentrates one's eyes on the superficial." - Kafka

rdw is like photography in this respect.

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 6, 2006 at 11:37 AM | PERMALINK

Via Josh Marshall, Bush is polling 37% in Indiana

Yeah, there was an article to that effect in my local fishwrap, the Indianapolis Star, on Sunday. More impressive was the fact that a majority now disapprove of Bush's job performance. In Indiana, which voted for Bush (though not for my lack of trying) twice.

Fascinating.

Posted by: Gregory on March 6, 2006 at 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, the Right flogging the stab in the back theory is a sign they are making progress. I mean, they've moved beyond denial at least.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 6, 2006 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

Where's the money going, brian, Fat White Guy, republicrat? Show me.

Do any of you who support the war particularly care where billions of dollars go in Iraq?

Posted by: Aaron G. Stock on March 6, 2006 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK
iraq's attempts to shoot down our fighter planes that were enforcing a cease fire to which it had agreed.

Actually, those fighters were violating the cease-fire that the UN imposed, not enforcing it.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 6, 2006 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

I did two tours in Viet Nam and bled real blood for my country
Posted by: Fat White Guy

Really, FWG? But what is your country?

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 6, 2006 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

There is one man, and I use that word advisedly, who is responsible for our situation in Iraq. One and one alone. He is responsible. If "we" win or lose, he will and he should bear responsibility. This is George W. Bush's war. He started it. He directed it. And perhaps he has blown it. We may have to accept a President on trial abroad someday for gross crimes against humanity. I hope we will. He deserves it and his supporters deserve to see it.

I bid you peace!

Oldradus

Posted by: Oldradus on March 6, 2006 at 1:10 PM | PERMALINK

Do any of you who support the war particularly care where billions of dollars go in Iraq?

In a word, no, because Bush insists on paying for the war -- off the books, of course, with his "emergency supplemental appropriations" year after year -- with a tax cut.

Of course it's a lost cause to suggest that the 101st Fighting Keyboardists like Glenn Reynolds, you know, actually enlist -- or urge the readers of their blogs to enlist -- but I'd be a lot more impressed with the support of the Bush Cultists if they were willing to bear at least the monetary costs of the war.

Since they -- Bush's core supporters, mind! -- are evidently not willing to pay any price for the war, it's small wonder the effort was doomed to failure. And they deserve no credit for whatever miniscule success or benefit does manage to arise.

Posted by: Gregory on March 6, 2006 at 1:21 PM | PERMALINK

Al,
"Liberals would rather see George W Bush's poll ratings go down than to defeat the terrorists in Iraq."

Your statement leads me to ask: what are you doing to help win the war? Trolling lefty websites doesn't count.

Posted by: Redleg on March 6, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

rp,
it is not more intellectually honest. it's just easier. that's the worst part.

Please. It was your side who supported Saddam during the worst of his rule. Bush pere doubled the Commodity Credit Corp. credits to Saddam after Halabja. Learn some facts here.

Posted by: Randy Paul on March 6, 2006 at 8:02 PM | PERMALINK

Aaron G. Stock: Where's the money going, brian, Fat White Guy, republicrat? Show me.

That would be a good topic for a dedicated thread.

Posted by: republicrat on March 6, 2006 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan: If you oppose going to war with China right now, does that not make you in favor of leaving the Chinese Communist party in power?

Yes.

Posted by: republicrat on March 6, 2006 at 8:52 PM | PERMALINK

His criticism is on people who have doggedly ignored Bush's mendacity and incompetence -- the very things that made any "hope" of a victory in Iraq foolish indeed -- and now that the fact of failure in Iraq resulting from Bush's mendacity and incompetence has become too obvious to ignore, are seeking to cast blame not on themselves and the president they supported, but on others.


maybe, but what Kevin actually wrote was this: The dreamland these people inhabit has become simply pathological. He has written plenty of times that there is no hope in Iraq and the troops should be pulled out on schedule.

Posted by: republicrat on March 6, 2006 at 8:57 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: karma on March 7, 2006 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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