Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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March 7, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ....Mohammed at Iraq the Model talks to his father:

Me: what kinds of challenges can make things worse?

Dad: Virtually anything...assassinating a leader, a fatwa, attack on a shrine like last time; we do not possess the institutions that can abolish the effects of severe sentimental reactions.

The American ambassador in Iraq talks to an LA Times reporter:

In remarks that were among the frankest and bleakest public assessments of the Iraqi situation by a high-level American official, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said the "potential is there" for sectarian violence to become all-out civil war, but that Iraq for now had pulled back from that prospect after the wave of sectarian reprisals for the Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra.

"If another incident (occurs), Iraq is really vulnerable to it at this time, in my judgment," Khalilzad said.

So even diehard supporters of the American invasion agree: a single new incident could touch off full-scale civil war in Iraq. Got it.

Now, what are the odds there won't be another incident?

Kevin Drum 2:05 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (181)

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Comments

1/10

Chances of Bush's poll numbers dropping below 30%?

9/10

Posted by: anon on March 7, 2006 at 2:14 AM | PERMALINK

You're right. It seems to me that the conditions have been in place for a long time. It isn't that all of a sudden we're balanced on the knife's edge, it is that the blade has been gradually working its way through our shoes and is now tickling the soles of our feet.

Posted by: MarkC on March 7, 2006 at 2:23 AM | PERMALINK

If by "tickling," MarkC, you mean slicing through skin and gaining momentum with the lubricant of our blood, then yes, you're spot on.

Posted by: teece on March 7, 2006 at 2:31 AM | PERMALINK

Why do you hate Las Vegas?

Posted by: jerry on March 7, 2006 at 2:36 AM | PERMALINK

Sistani and Sadr need to hold it together.

Posted by: Jimm on March 7, 2006 at 2:40 AM | PERMALINK

Unfortunately, Zarqawi knows exactly what to do. Meanwhile, the sectarian murders continue apace. The mixed cities like Baqouba are suffering the worst. Of course, not having a government makes things difficult too.

Posted by: Elrod on March 7, 2006 at 2:45 AM | PERMALINK

Zarqawi is no doubt planning the the next provocation, the mosque bombing being such a success from his viewpoint.

Posted by: Myron on March 7, 2006 at 2:46 AM | PERMALINK

Cripes, Kevin, in the past two years how many "incidents" have there been? The only major difference this time is that Sadr decided to let his goons loose again. Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

I see the critical issue right now as whether or not the government settles on how power is going to be shared. The Shiites are holding out against a large bloc of secular and other interests. At this point, the latter bloc looks like the better way to go, but Iraqi politics makes Italian politics look simple.

Posted by: tbrosz on March 7, 2006 at 2:49 AM | PERMALINK

Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

Damn that someone for the umpteenth time! I swear, if someone doesn't get his act together real soon, and start doing all those things that someone oughta do, that someone is going to be in a world of trouble.

Now pipe down - Sportscenter's almost on.

Posted by: Irony Man on March 7, 2006 at 3:04 AM | PERMALINK

It's a little strange to hear General Pace's optimistic assessment of the war on Sunday and then Ambassador's Khalilzad's pessimistic comments a day later.

And the president, instead of dealing with these things, seems to be zoning out. And Cheney is hiding under his rock at his undisclosed location with a shotgun across his knees.

Eventually the adults will return and the various messes of this president will be cleaned up (Clue: it will take liberals, moderates and some honest conservatives to clean it up; this is reality, not choir practice; it will take more than snark and singing to the choir to turn this country around). And it will take time. I honestly hope I live long enough to see it. It might take ten years or it might take twenty years.

Posted by: Craig on March 7, 2006 at 3:37 AM | PERMALINK

It sounds like Iraq the Model is giving us (Bush) cover to start pulling out troops.

Posted by: Tilli (Mojave Desert) on March 7, 2006 at 3:44 AM | PERMALINK

Anyone still think that invading Iraq was the right thing to do?

"Let freedom reign" indeed. The only thought Bush had about the outcome was that any leader we might annoint should express gratitude for the invasion. Been there, done that, spent more than it took to put a man on the moon, killed way more people, with as yet less to show for the effort.

Posted by: bad Jim on March 7, 2006 at 3:47 AM | PERMALINK

Craig >"It's a little strange to hear General Pace's optimistic assessment of the war on Sunday..."

What do you expect from a puppet ?

"Why would I believe him ?" - John Murtha on Sunday`s Press The Meat side show

Pace is a disgrace to the uniform he wears

"There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept." - Ansel Adams

Posted by: daCascadian on March 7, 2006 at 3:57 AM | PERMALINK

Who is bombing the Mosques?

Iraqi's have never bombed each others mosques.

Posted by: B.Toest on March 7, 2006 at 5:12 AM | PERMALINK

What is your point? Would the world be better off if Saddam were still in power? Would Iraqis be better off? What would John Kerry be doing about this? Democrats will have a hard time getting back to the White House if they treat every setback in Iraq as a partisan opportunity.

Posted by: jimbo on March 7, 2006 at 5:25 AM | PERMALINK

Democrats will have a hard time getting back to the White House if they treat every setback in Iraq as a partisan opportunity.

As opposed to Republicans treating any assault on their deluded perception of Iraq as a partisan opportunity.

Please, spare us the whining. This is your mess. And if Democrats have a hard time getting back to the White House because of it, then so be it. I want cheerleader Republicans to have to deal with every fucking consequence of their mess: preferably, on the ground and in uniform.

Posted by: ahem on March 7, 2006 at 6:38 AM | PERMALINK


If I didn't know better, I'd say that it almost sounds as if Kevin and his liberal buddies are hoping for there to be a civil war.
Then, they'll be able to say "I told you so", which, after all, is more important than the consequences of such a civil war.
Other than being able to say "I told you so", what is the upside of a civil war, please?
None, right?
Then why the hell are you rooting for one?

You liberals are pathetic, and this kind of mindset, where you think the enemy is GWB rather than the forces of violence and destruction in the Middle East (as Howard Dean himself once said in one of the Democratic Primary debates two years ago). That kind of mindset will lead you to political oblivion soon.
Don't think you'll take the House or the Senate this November. If anything, you'll probably lose Senate seats.

Posted by: Portugal on March 7, 2006 at 6:41 AM | PERMALINK

"What is your point?"

The point, bimbo, is that the US invasion and occupation of Iraq is a disaster. Civilians are dying at the rate of 300-400 a month, which in US terms would be one 9/11 per month.

"Would the world be better off if Saddam were still in power?"

Yes. Absolutely. However, that was not the only alternative to Bush's botched sideshow. Saddam was a crippled leader of a crippled country when the US invaded. He wouldn't have lasted long anyway.

"Would Iraqis be better off?"

Yes, overall. Do you have proof of the contrary?

"What would John Kerry be doing about this?"

He would have kept sanctions in place, waited for Saddam to be assassinated by al Qaeda, deposed by his military, or abdicate. Meanwhile, we would have caught bin Ladin, the federal budget would still be balanced, and hundreds of people would be alive in New Orleans that are, sadly, dead today.

The only ones treating Iraq as a partisan opportunity, bimbo, are the neocons and their acolytes. Why don't you stop?

Posted by: Joel on March 7, 2006 at 6:42 AM | PERMALINK

Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

Uh, dum-brosz? It was the attempt to 'take him out' that caused the Sadrist uprising. And if he is 'taken out', you're a moron to think that the residents of Sadr City will go home and turn on the TV.

Posted by: ahem on March 7, 2006 at 6:43 AM | PERMALINK

"You liberals are pathetic, and this kind of mindset, where you think the enemy is GWB rather than the forces of violence and destruction in the Middle East . . . will lead you to political oblivion soon."

WRT to the violence in Iraq, the enemy *is* GWB. The current violence in Iraq is the result of the power vacuum created by the US invasion and occupation.

It is telling, though, that you think the important thing is the future of liberal politics in the US, and not the lives being lost in Iraq. You are pathetic.

Posted by: Joel on March 7, 2006 at 6:50 AM | PERMALINK

Then, they'll be able to say "I told you so", which, after all, is more important than the consequences of such a civil war.

Um, it's Glenn Instacracker Reynolds who's waiting, penis in hand, for an opportunity to blame the 'librul media' for the situation in Iraq to turn into a total fuck-up.

Oh, and please keep with the 'this will lose you votes' line. It's so endearingly clichd. In fact, please go to a district where an Iraq veteran is running as a Democrat and try that line, you pathetic chickenshit.

Posted by: ahem on March 7, 2006 at 6:54 AM | PERMALINK

Now, what are the odds there won't be another incident?

You mean like this?

The top commander of the Iraqi army division in Baghdad was killed Monday when his car came under small-arms fire while traveling through the capital, the U.S. military said.

Maj. Gen. Mubdar Hatim Hazya al-Dulaimi was one of the highest-ranking members of the new Iraqi army to be killed in insurgent violence. Under his leadership, the 6th Iraqi Army Division has been gradually assuming control of parts of the capital from U.S. forces.

Posted by: Lis Riba on March 7, 2006 at 7:25 AM | PERMALINK

It seems to me that American death squads are trying to incite all-out civil war.

A permanent breakup of Iraq would render it easy to control, subject to manipulation, and permanently broken.

Plus, you get a cheap excuse to visit inexcusable violence on an occupied country.

This is really the only explanation for a long, long series of otherwise inexplicable missteps. Throwing people out of their jobs, the very early on assassinations of moderate religious leaders who were respected for their ability to bring reason and compromise to the table, the destruction of libraries --

--YOu don't do these tings unless your purpose is to break a country completely, or incite serious resistance by pushing local populations to and beyond the brink, after which they have no real choice but to pick up arms and attempt to "form a more perfect union."

It's not a civil war. It's occupier vs. nationalist patriot. It's US trained, run, and directed death squads against local residents. When will Negroponte be brought before a US court and held accountable for the tremendous crimes that betray the American nation? The "Salvador Option" can only be met with the Nuremburg solution. It's a question of whether the American nation will survive or perish.

Posted by: SombreroFallout on March 7, 2006 at 7:26 AM | PERMALINK

"It seems to me that American death squads are trying to incite all-out civil war."

Bingo.

Mossad may have a hand in it too, perhaps Iranian agents as well. It sure as hell ain't the Sunnis.

" you think the enemy is GWB "

Enemy of America. Bingo again.

Posted by: Joey Giraud on March 7, 2006 at 7:36 AM | PERMALINK

" When will Negroponte be brought before a US court "

When he's finished with his morning massage and cigar.

It's hard work being a fascist.

Posted by: Joey Giraud on March 7, 2006 at 7:39 AM | PERMALINK

We can keep a lid on the civil war by restricting movements of people, restricting freedoms of expression, retaining people, etc. At the same time, the economy crumbles and people go wanting for necessities. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like pre invasion Iraq.

.

Posted by: lou on March 7, 2006 at 7:41 AM | PERMALINK

The U.S. may not wait for an internally provoked event to ignite civil war. The eventual breakup of Iraq into 3 or more nations may serve us well. Certainly it would be advantageous to have the Kurds and their oil seperated and autonomous from the mayhem and allied with us. Bush couldn't finesse the 3-way relationship with Turkey after such a break but future administrations might manage it. Either statehood is arranged for individual factions or bloodshed and misery will continue for many generations more.

Posted by: steve duncan on March 7, 2006 at 8:02 AM | PERMALINK

"Bush couldn't finesse the 3-way relationship with Turkey after such a break but future administrations might manage it."

This may be wishful thinking. I doubt Turkey will be able to resist invading a Kurdish state on its border, both because of the issue of Kurdish autonomy and because of the oil.

Posted by: Joel on March 7, 2006 at 8:23 AM | PERMALINK

What is your point? Would the world be better off if Saddam blah blah blah

The point, numbnuts, is that compared to the still-unresolved catastrophe Bush has caused in Iraq, doing nothing would have been preferable.

Setting $300 billion on fire in the middle of the desert would have been preferable.

The remaining war supporters are simply incapable of learning. Just like their mongoloid leader.

Posted by: grytpype on March 7, 2006 at 8:24 AM | PERMALINK

If I didn't know better, I'd say that it almost sounds as if Kevin and his liberal buddies are hoping for there to be a civil war. Then, they'll be able to say "I told you so", which, after all, is more important than the consequences of such a civil war.

Portugal, as usual you are full of shit and put it forth in such an antagonistic fashion that I have no qualms coming full back at you. Your side, a side that has immense trouble executing anything outside politics, decided to take everyone on an absolute asinine policy, a policy that all of us out here knew was utterly assinine, you sold it on the basis of self-apparent lies and yet, and yet, all of us here have been hoping that your fairy dust expectations might, miracle of miracle, come true and we still hope for such an outcome even though it would just strengthen the delusions of dumb fucks like you. You are beneath contempt.

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 7, 2006 at 8:29 AM | PERMALINK

[wingnut]

There is no civil war, and there will be no civil war. This is all a product of the liberal MSM rooting for a civil war. Besides, if a civil war does happen (and it won't!) the Leader's administration will call it something with the word "terror" in it. All I can say is the MSM and you traitor liberals better hope we win in Iraq because boy, if we don't....

Oh, yeah, almost forgot. LeftistTraitorScumHateAmerica & WantToSeeAmericaFail & GiveAidAndComfortToOurEnemies & AreHomos.

[/wingnut]

Posted by: R.Porrofatto on March 7, 2006 at 8:32 AM | PERMALINK

Hauling out my 'Regime Change Begins at Home" t-shirt.

Remember that Onion headline: Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over'

uh-huh.

We have met the enemy and it's the Commander-in-Thief's enablers.

Posted by: CFShep on March 7, 2006 at 8:37 AM | PERMALINK

I like how the lefties glom on to the grimment of grim news each and every time with excited anticipation that maybe, just maybe there will be more destruction. Ignoring another report from a few days ago that the "sectarian" violence (that sectarian word is a new favorite of theirs, makes them sound international) is way overstated. In fact of all of the Sunni mosques that were reported to have been "attacked", most of them were minor incidences with one of them receiving a broken window, yet the leftie headline was "Sunni Mosques Attacked".

And though a "civil war" is not ideal, our country went through one and survived. I guess though if a country can not transition from Dictatorship to Democracy in the time it takes to watch the ever painful Academy Awards, then all is lost. Except of course if we could all embrace "Brokeback Iraq, the epic struggle of gay muslims in their quest for freedom from oppression". Now that would sell to the lefties.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 8:50 AM | PERMALINK

Someone should have taken him out....

US Army must listen to the keyboard commandoes issuing Fatwas from the basement of their mthers' homes.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 8:50 AM | PERMALINK

[Yawn] Jay, we've heard that lie before - bad sh*t is our fault, rather than the fault of the people in charge.

Fresher lies, please.

Posted by: Barry on March 7, 2006 at 8:53 AM | PERMALINK

I wasn't blaming you for shit Barry, because if you don't do shit how can you be at blame? I am laughing at you, not with you, AT YOU.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 8:57 AM | PERMALINK

Whoever dares to speak criticism will be sent to a detainee camp!

Traitors!

Posted by: Bootlickers For Bush on March 7, 2006 at 8:57 AM | PERMALINK

"our country went through one and survived"

Our country was not sitting on one of the world's biggest oil reserves at a time of Peak Oil when there is no excess production capacity.

Our country was not surrounded by Iran, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia.

Our country was not occupied by the most powerful nation on earth.

Why do we keep hearing such lame reasoning on this war in Iraq? This is about in the same minor league of groupthink as "they rest of the world had the same intelligence as we did and thought that Saddam had WMD's".

Get over this notion that civil war in Iraq will not spill over into the entire Middle East and not have profound detrimental effects on the entire world. Why would anyone wish such a thing just to prove that Bush screwed the pooch? We will all be suffering the consequences (as we are now).

Posted by: lou on March 7, 2006 at 9:00 AM | PERMALINK

And though a "civil war" is not ideal, our country went through one and survived.

Yeah, I guess it's a step up from the rape rooms you were screeching about. What was your US experience, again?

"At least 618,000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700,000. The number that is most often quoted is 620,000. At any rate, these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam." (www.civilwarhome.com)

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 7, 2006 at 9:01 AM | PERMALINK

Uhhh...I'm really a lucky guy...I'm blessed that...uhh...my people don't think.

Posted by: George W. Bush on March 7, 2006 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

It's all gloom and doom, the world is over. If we could just free the gay the muslims from oppression, allow the muslim girls to get abortions on demand without parental notification and somehow save those people from themselves we might have a chance. But alas, there is no hope, without the superior intellect of us on the left at work saving everyone from themselves, there is no chance. Nobody is as smart, sophisticated, understanding and as wordly as we are. If only.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 9:08 AM | PERMALINK

Off all the Bush people associated with this disaster, Khalilzad seems to have at least some grasp on reality.

Posted by: Red on March 7, 2006 at 9:13 AM | PERMALINK

Jay, what is the obessesion from you wingnuts about the gay thing? Why did you bring it up? This is an Iraq thread, and while it's painfully obvious you can't handle people'e rational comments about Iraq (yea, well, we DID tell you so) you have to bring up the gay man issue. I see this elsewhere on blogs. I think lots of insecure single hetero conservatives are really threatened by gay men for some reason.

Are you curious? Are you threatened by gay men? Were you molested as an altar boy?

I never seem to understand the right wing fascination with being gay. Are they closeted themselves, or is it the Matt Drudge/Ken Mehlman self loathing gay man issue?

Posted by: Baise Moi on March 7, 2006 at 9:17 AM | PERMALINK

Want doom and gloom?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/07/MNGAFHJJL91.DTL
'Huge solar storms could zap Earth, scientists warn. Next sunspot cycle may disrupt power, communications.'

Pair that up with speculation that the Earth's magnetic polarity is wobbling and may reverse in about the same time frame and you've got something else to fret about.


As to Kevin's ultimate Q - the odds there won't be another incident. I believe they're approximately equal to the likelihood of Jon Stewart's hosting another Oscar show.

Posted by: CFShep on March 7, 2006 at 9:19 AM | PERMALINK

Nobody is as smart, sophisticated, understanding and as wordly as we are.

That's not true.

But we can certainly spot dumbasses.

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 7, 2006 at 9:22 AM | PERMALINK

We can keep a lid on [the American birthright of liberty and democracy]by restricting movements of people, restricting freedoms of expression, retaining people, etc. At the same time, the economy crumbles and people go wanting for necessities. Hmmm...that sounds a lot like pre invasion Iraq.

Posted by: lou at 7:41 AM |

Hmmm yourself. Sounds exactly like what's going on in this country.

Posted by: SombreroFallout on March 7, 2006 at 9:26 AM | PERMALINK

I wasn't blaming you for shit Barry, because if you don't do shit how can you be at blame? I am laughing at you, not with you, AT YOU.

Oh, I see, Jay.

Spewing overt aggressiveness out today instead of your usual passive-aggressive polite sarcasm hissed through those purdy lips of yours, eh, Charlie, um, I mean, Jay?

Let me put on a Chuckles face for a moment. ; )

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 9:27 AM | PERMALINK

Wow, the trolls are out in force. And, unsurprisingly, rather than blame GWB for this clusterfsck, they're trotting out the well-worn line that Bush's critics are "rootong" for failure/civil war/whatever in Iraq. (tbrosz, uncharacteristically, declines to indulge for once, retreating instead into an even deeper fantasy of "someone" taking out Sadr.)

I love the smell of war cheerleader flop sweat in the morning. Sadly, though, the defeat it reeks of is one that will taint this entire nation for years. The sole positive outcome would be if, Glenn Reynolds's odious dolschtoss spinning to the contrary, that the Republicans won't be trusted with national security for a generation.

Posted by: Gregory on March 7, 2006 at 9:28 AM | PERMALINK

Are you looking in the mirror again snicker?

Baise, you mentioned the "gay" word six times, aghast! You might be the one obsessed, no? I was merely laughing at all of these "rational" comments on Iraq. A cup of coffee and some light reading from the losers on this blogsite is a great start to my day. Carry on.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 9:31 AM | PERMALINK

Remember, dear Jay, it is your dream team that told the world democracy would triumph in Iraq and terrorism would be crushed.

Turns out Saddam didnt have weapons of mass destruction, those aluminum tubes were not for WMD manufacture, those were not mobile biological weapons trucks, those were not satellite photos of WMD plants. No one was shopping in Niger. There was nothing. Turns out Saddam Hussein and his secular Baathist party was the sworn enemy of the likes of fundamentalist al Qaeda who, by the way, were never in Iraq, turns out that when democracy did come the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq won the elections, turns out that their military arm, the Badr Corp, was trained originally by Iran when they were exiled there in the 1980s. Turns out that conditions are now worse in the bosom of Middle Eastern democracy than they were before the war. Every day there are new assassinations and bombings and it is getting worse. Today the top commander of security in Baghdad, Maj. Gen. Mubdar Hatim Hazya al-Dulaimi, was assassinated. Turns out America is running out of cash. Turns out big chunks of it lined the pockets of war profiteers, a bonanza that would make your own Abramoff proud. You think that all you need to do is extend the estimated arrival for democracy? What kind of democracy?

Take responsibility for your partys actions and stop blaming this on fag-loving liberals.

Posted by: bellumregio on March 7, 2006 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

The sole positive outcome would be if, Glenn Reynolds's odious dolschtoss spinning to the contrary, that the Republicans won't be trusted with national security for a generation.

Well, another positive outcome (sad it comes at the cost of so many lives but I guess that's human nature) is that a lot of Americans seem to be waking up politically. A number of Republican voters I know seem to be asking questions about the leadership that would have been unimaginable three years ago. Though I guess this is part and parcel of not trusting Republicans with security.

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 7, 2006 at 9:34 AM | PERMALINK

Well why are you laughing at the comments, Jay? What's funny here, am I missing something? Iraq is in a very dangerous place right now, is that funny?

I'm not sure how 'light reading from the losers on this blogsite' is your ideal morning, you would think you have better things to do with your time and life, but perhaps that isn't the case.

You're always welcome to post here though, Jay. It's interesting to see what line or rationale you bring to the table every week, as it seems to be ever changing and shifting.

I can understand why you'd be upset. THings in Iraq aren't going too well and you probably carried lots of water for the BUsh admin on this one. It's slightly amusing to see conservatives express buyers remorse, they really have a hard time being told they were wrong.

Posted by: Baise Moi on March 7, 2006 at 9:38 AM | PERMALINK

There is rampant inferiority complexes here, I am not "blaming" fag-loving (I love this one) liberals. If anyone is to blame, it would be those Islamic extremists (you call them freedom fighters) who are exacting "sectarian violence" (your word), or murder (my words) on their own people. But why blame those that are actually responsible for the violence, afterall that is not in the liberal tradition. We don't blame those who don't work and contribute to society, it's the economies fault. We don't blame drug addicts for their addiction, it's the drugs fault, we don't blame, we don't blame those who steal, it's the victims fault for making their property to appealing. Remember, it's nobody's fault, except Bush.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 9:45 AM | PERMALINK

Drum says:

"So even diehard supporters of the American invasion agree: a single new incident could touch off full-scale civil war in Iraq. Got it."

You guys have been predicting a civil war in Iraq for about three years now.

Posted by: Mike on March 7, 2006 at 9:51 AM | PERMALINK

Jay, I wanted to thank you for volunteering to go fight in Iraq. It's very brave of you to stand up for your convictions like that.

Posted by: Mr Nasty on March 7, 2006 at 9:51 AM | PERMALINK

The only thing funny about Iraq is the left's constant craving for bad news. There is a lot of good things happening over there which is NEVER reported. Can you say "self-fulfilling prophecy"?

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

What arrogance we have! Who decreed that we have to stay in Iraq until things go the way we want them to go? God? I don't think so....

We have Saddam. There are no WMDs. The Iraqis want us to leave. We should have a race to see which platoon can get out ot Iraq the quickest.

This is insanity, people!

Posted by: Fred Flintrock on March 7, 2006 at 9:55 AM | PERMALINK

But Flintrock, we still have some schools to paint. We can't leave now.

Posted by: wharfrat on March 7, 2006 at 9:58 AM | PERMALINK

ALEXANDRIA, Virginia (CNN) -- Had Zacarias Moussaoui only told the truth after his arrest a month before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the lives of Americans could have been saved, a prosecutor told jurors as the penalty phase of Moussaoui's trial got under way Monday.

"He lied so the plot could proceed unimpeded," Robert Spencer said in his opening statement. "He lied, and 3,000 people died."

The prosecutor's last statement above shows Bush and Moussaoui have something in common.

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 7, 2006 at 9:59 AM | PERMALINK

Jay, your bravery nows no bounds. You've fought the war here at home on blog messaging boards. Now you're going overseas to fight the war in person.

I am in awe.

Posted by: Mr Nasty on March 7, 2006 at 10:02 AM | PERMALINK

You should be in awe nasty, you have never met anyone quite as awesome and as condescending as I am. Bow to the master libby boy.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

The U.S. may not wait for an internally provoked event to ignite civil war. The eventual breakup of Iraq into 3 or more nations may serve us well. Certainly it would be advantageous to have the Kurds and their oil seperated and autonomous from the mayhem and allied with us. Bush couldn't finesse the 3-way relationship with Turkey after such a break but future administrations might manage it. Either statehood is arranged for individual factions or bloodshed and misery will continue for many generations more.

Posted by: steve duncan on March 7, 2006 at 8:02 AM | PERMALINK
"Bush couldn't finesse the 3-way relationship with Turkey after such a break but future administrations might manage it."

This may be wishful thinking. I doubt Turkey will be able to resist invading a Kurdish state on its border, both because of the issue of Kurdish autonomy and because of the oil.

Posted by: Joel on March 7, 2006 at 8:23 AM |

The breakup of Iraq seems to be the overt neocon objective, judging by their actions.

But that can never serve us well.

It's not hard to imagine a scenario in which an apparent breakup into three parts results in:
a) a re-coalescence into one state over a long time frame; or
b) the wholesale absorption of the three sections by Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey. Iran already has a close relationship and huge influence over the Shiites; Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and many other countries are close to the Sunnis, and Turkey has no love for the Kurds.

I can see the Turks holding off and making no move for a long time -- until and unless things get very ugly. Saudi Arabia is quite content to sit back and let us do the dirty work -- which IS the job of the employee, after all.

But as China, the UAE, and everyone else sits back and watches us drain ourselves dry, in terms of blood and treasure, as well as political capital, technological edge, developed advantage, and military capacity and superiority....

.... it's only a matter of time until the geopolitical tectonic plates shift. Different story, then: neighboring countries will have to fill the political/military vacuum in some form at that point.

There's little indication that even short-term objectives to confront Iran have any realistic hope of succeeding.

Posted by: SombreroFallout on March 7, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

Thanks for reminding us, Gregory et al who have voiced such, of the failures of our WH leadership and the misplaced rage aimed at liberals. Who ensnared America in this clusterfuck? Who brought it on? Dick Cheney knows what the "last throes of the insurgency" means:

"If you look at what the dictionary says about throes, it can still be a violent period, the throes of a revolution," he said. "The point would be that the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists understand that if we're successful at accomplishing our objective -- standing up a democracy in Iraq -- that that's a huge defeat for them. [Emphasis added.]
Iraq is so strategically key to the GWOT, don't you know! Amazingly though, Iraq had no ties to the 9/11 hijackers but that's a quibble especially for Bush loyalists and the ever-changing reasons why we're in Iraq. At first it was to defend against a "mushroom cloud." Now it's to establish democracy that will spread throughout the ME, praise the lord. What's the predicted outcome? An undaunted Dick Cheney sums up:
"We will succeed in Iraq, just like we did in Afghanistan. We will stand up a new government under an Iraqi-drafted constitution. We will defeat that insurgency, and, in fact, it will be an enormous success story." --Dick Cheney, Friday, June 24, 2005, CNN interview
And the crowd roared...

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 10:05 AM | PERMALINK

tbrosz: Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

Even the Right knows that Bush is incompetent and failing to get the job done!

Now, since Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad recognizes the potential for civil war, it's clear his is a closet liberal and a traitor in disguise, according to our most illustrious (uh-emmmm) Right wing commenters, and should be immediately fired for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Why aren't the "trolls" demanding his ouster?

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 7, 2006 at 10:07 AM | PERMALINK

I'm shocked! I'm shocked, I tell you, that Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad didn't mention any of the good news about good things going on in Iraq!

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 10:14 AM | PERMALINK

It is in Israels interest for Iraq to splinter into three states, as that would entail a non-Arab state in the Middle East i.e. Kurdistan. Sy Hersh has already written about this, citing Mossad involvement in northern Iraq. An American-Israeli contractor whom I had once worked for and who was busy war profiteering in Baghdad confirmed this view. Though now he is sitting in federal custody waiting for a court hearing on a string of charges such as money laundering conspiracy, bribery, etc.

Posted by: Botecelli on March 7, 2006 at 10:15 AM | PERMALINK

Look these arguments about Iraq are foolish, the necons cannot admit that the VIETNAM WAR WAS WRONG.As republicans preah"GET OVER IT'

Posted by: nixon revenge on March 7, 2006 at 10:16 AM | PERMALINK

What's more shocking is the lefties constant prediction for failure. It's all lost, we can't win against murderous cave people, we will be forever dependent on their oil because we couldn't dare sacrifice the indigenous animals or the ecological disaster of ANWR, nor are we smart enough to develop greener energies, and the final straw, no abortions in South Dakota. Why even try.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 10:23 AM | PERMALINK

THere is a civil war going on in Iraq - right now. A low-intensity conflict civil war characterized by the 7000+ deaths reported in the Guardian last week.

We should not assume that just b/c there aren't full-scale military maneuvers going on in the street the civil war isn't real.

Anyone remember what John Negroponte did b/4 Iraq? He oversaw the training of government-sanctioned death-squads in Central America. You think he didn't attempt to re-create that model in Iraq?

Posted by: not chris on March 7, 2006 at 10:23 AM | PERMALINK

"We're in a civil war now; it's just that not everybody's joined in," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a former military commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "The failure to understand that the civil war is already taking place, just not necessarily at the maximum level, means that our counter measures are inadequate and therefore dangerous to our long-term interest.

"It's our failure to understand reality that has caused us to be late throughout this experience of the last three years in Iraq," added Nash, who is an ABC News consultant.

Posted by: Botecelli on March 7, 2006 at 10:28 AM | PERMALINK

ABC News and the Guardian are reporting the "civil war" in Iraq is underway? Well that has to be true considering those two sources of unquestionable journalistic integrity. I didn't realize that "civil wars" were measured on levels, what level are we currently at if not maximum? It must be a fair to midland level, those kinds are always the worst.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

They're not called "cons" because they're your friends.

Posted by: perianwyr on March 7, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

Rush Limbaugh told me there is no civil war, and that's good enough for me.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 10:43 AM | PERMALINK

Why aren't the "trolls" demanding his ouster?

Because he's a brilliant diplomat AND even better manager of media expectations. The idea is to set the bar low so expectations can be easily surpassed. GWBs only been kicking you ass for a decade now doing the exact same thing.

Zalmay gets the libs running around with their hair on fire 'civil war, civil war' and then gets to brag about how his amazing diplomacy has prevented civil war.

Yet what's really happened a another large tribe has declared war on Al Qaeda. It's not exactly rocket science to see Zarqawi is killing many more Iraqi's than 'infidels' and working hard to get them to kill each other. They're not all that interested. Gee, I wonder why?

Suicide bombers have dropped by 60% since 2005 because of vastly improved intelligence and the fact the tribes are now starting to kill foreigners on sight.

The NYTs is always ready to play the sap.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 10:49 AM | PERMALINK

I think lots of insecure single hetero conservatives are really threatened by gay men for some reason.

Who says Jay is hetero?

Posted by: ckelly on March 7, 2006 at 10:52 AM | PERMALINK

Anyone remember what John Negroponte did b/4 Iraq? He oversaw the training of government-sanctioned death-squads in Central America. You think he didn't attempt to re-create that model in Iraq?

John didn't train death squads but it clearly was a good thing the people of central america fought back agianst the socialist garbage killing them. They've come very far. We signed a free trade deal with the nations of Central America last year and will soon add Panama, Columbia, Ecuador and Peru. They are seeing real economic improvement.

He was the perfect guy for Iraq. We are now seeing the tribal leaders hunting down and killing Al Qaeda and other foreigners killling Iraqi's. We both agree the Iraqi's have to fight back. John knows what to do.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 10:54 AM | PERMALINK

You bet Iraq is in a civil war - It just is being conducted clandestinely. The Iraqis are scared to death - and rightfully so - of fighting openly, because the Americans would put an AC-130 in the air and turn the combatants (on all sides) into goulash. By fighting in fits and starts, they can avoid the wanton slaughter that Americans inflict on them in places like Fallujah.

Let's leave now and let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Fred Flintrock on March 7, 2006 at 10:54 AM | PERMALINK

regardless, we have to and will stay the course there. Might take ten years. Without the US, I think CW is a sure thing. It kinda like cancer treatment, got get the chemo, hope it doesn't kill you.

Funny, but did Bush understand the real commitment he was making when he started the war? Doubt it.

Posted by: the fake Fake Al on March 7, 2006 at 10:55 AM | PERMALINK

rdw shows up in hopes of being permitted to drool on Dubya's $1500 Tony Lamas.

Dubya, smirking, shrinks back in horror: "Damn! Get away from me, you fool. I just had those polished by my professional staff of bootlickers!"

Posted by: CFShep on March 7, 2006 at 11:00 AM | PERMALINK

One man's death squads are another man's freedom fighters. But why blame the continued death on those actually responsible, when common sense would tell you that America is the only entity truly capable of wholesale death and destruction, right? I mean afterall just ask Zarqawi and Saddam, men of integrity.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Shocking! Republicans believe in moral relativism!


"If we went around this room, people would have different definitions of what constitutes torture, depending on the circumstances," he [Abu Gonzales] said.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

Jay, will you be stationed in Baghdad? I am a school teacher, and my students would like to know where they can send mail for real, live, war heroes.

We are all so proud that you are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for America!

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 11:02 AM | PERMALINK

When "trying" to equal my parody, use your actual name......DOH!!!!!

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

...tell you that America is the only entity truly capable of wholesale death and destruction..

Of course I agree with our noble purpose of bring democracy to the Iraqis, but could you please fill in the following table:


Number of deaths caused by American intervention in Iraq:

Number of deaths caused by insurgents in Iraq:

This will help support your argument with concrete numbers.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Number of deaths caused by America: 500,000+
Number of deaths by insurgents: 1 (by accident)

No question we are a fierce "death squad"

And no more abortions in South Dakota, what is a liberal to do?

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

Jay

I take it that you do not want to support your own position by giving concrete numbers.

Your attempt at satire or taunting or whatever you intend is pathetic.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 11:15 AM | PERMALINK

Well, another positive outcome (sad it comes at the cost of so many lives but I guess that's human nature) is that a lot of Americans seem to be waking up politically. A number of Republican voters I know seem to be asking questions about the leadership that would have been unimaginable three years ago. Though I guess this is part and parcel of not trusting Republicans with security.

Snicker-snack,

You're Canadian. How could you know any conservatives? You're timing is way off. Al Qaeda tried to start a civil war and failed. The Iraqi troops took the lead in setting, enforcing and ending the curfew called by Iraqi leadership. It was all covered on Iraqi TV. The USA stayed in the background.

The MSM has played this perfectly wrong. Liberals cheerleading for a civil war won't make it happen. Al Qaeda is about killing Iraqi's and the Iraqi's know it. Now they're being hunted down and killed by Iraqi's.

I believe the count for fully trained army and police is up to 235,000 and they're turning out between 6,000 and 10,000 per month with no shortage of recruits. They control 60% of Baghdad and we turn over more territory every week.

Check out Michaeltotten.com for a look at the Kurdish North. They've had peace for 3 years and are in the front edge of an economic boom. They've added almost 1M in population (The region is home to 20M Kurds) in this period and continue to grow. They have massive oil deposits, plenty of water, secure borders, massive investment and low unemployment. They also have pending trade and development deals with Turkey, Norway, Israel and of course the USA and EU. Saddam refused to survey this region for oil and they could easily have over 40B barrels. Obviously a lot of people want to be their friends.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:16 AM | PERMALINK

>Let's leave now and let the chips fall where they may.

I second the motion.

Posted by: Lucy on March 7, 2006 at 11:16 AM | PERMALINK

I think lots of insecure single hetero conservatives are really threatened by gay men for some reason.

Why would anyone be threatened by gay men? Insecure or not?

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:18 AM | PERMALINK

>Let's leave now and let the chips fall where they may.

Ain't happening. We're winning anyway and will start to stand down before the election.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:20 AM | PERMALINK

"and the fact the tribes are now starting to kill foreigners on sight."

This doesn't really strike me as being a good thing.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 7, 2006 at 11:22 AM | PERMALINK

It [cleaning up the Bush mess] might take ten years or it might take twenty years.

Bush is the worst thing that has happened to this country since Vietnam. And the ills of Vietnam are still with us.

Our kids in their 60s will still be cursing Bush. If we're still alive.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 7, 2006 at 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

We're winning? Our soldiers are just dying over there for nothing.

And accusing liberals of cheerleading for a civil war is beyond cheap. Shame on you.

Posted by: Lucy on March 7, 2006 at 11:25 AM | PERMALINK

This doesn't really strike me as being a good thing

The only foreigners skulking around Iraq today are Al Qaeda. It's a very good thing.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

The only thing pathetic are all of the losers on this blog preaching endlessly of doom and gloom at the hands of America attributing no responsibility to those in this world who are actually responsbile for it.

Follow Louis Farrakhan's lead and become irrelevant.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

Alright Jay. I am done with you. You have no statistics and no facts. Just talking points. Forget it.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

This doesn't really strike me as being a good thing.

Posted by: MJ Memphis

Not to you or I. Not, in fact, to any reasonably sane human being.

But these guys inhabit Looking Glass World in which forests are preserved by cutting them down, water is rendered more wholesome by the addition of heavy metals, and we are to rejoice at shipping jobs abroad.

Posted by: CFShep on March 7, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

Our kids in their 60s will still be cursing Bush. If we're still alive.

A bit hysterical don't you think? GWB has changed the world for sure but in a good way. Just look at yesterdays 8-0 Supreme Court decision on the Solomon amendment. Look at what's happened to the UN and EU and Canada. Global liberalism is in retreat across ALL fronts.

It was fascinating two weeks ago that Chirac calls GWB to discuss Iran and the WH immediately puts out a press release for the sole purpose of making it clear he did not initiate the call OR ask for it. The week before Condi announces the State Dept is moving out of France to India and the week after GWB announces a historic breakthrough with India on nuclear power, trade and security.

I'm sure we'll be alive in 60 years. Liberalism is another matter.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:38 AM | PERMALINK

we are to rejoice at shipping jobs abroad.

This is one of may favorite liberal themes. You will campaign on it in 06 and 08 as the unemployment rate drops to 3.5% and wonder why you can win elections.

GWB has created 5.5M jobs since the '03 tax cuts but our problem is outsourcing. You're also due to bitch about too much trade with India as their booming economy sucks up US exports.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

The fanciful rdw is confident the GOP can run on liberal-bashing forever.

We'll see.

Posted by: Lucy on March 7, 2006 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/index.php
Number of Iraqi civilians killed 32000+
Out of this number do you think any of the living relatives of the dead would blame the USA for their loss. After all Dick Cheney invaded Iraq for purposes of revenge WTC 9/11.Do you think that they would want revenge for their loss. Wing nuts speak of terrorists as a finite number. When actually we create new members daily.
rdw the unemployment rate is a lie you know it. Your just talking shit to get a rise out of the dreaded liberals. Get a life.

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 11:51 AM | PERMALINK

"The only foreigners skulking around Iraq today are Al Qaeda. It's a very good thing."

Except for hmm... foreign NGOs... foreign journalists... and, of course, that makes the assumption that the people doing the killing have a 100% rate of identifying foreigners. So, no risk of mistaking another Iraqi from a different tribe for, say, a Syrian or Yemeni, nosirree.

Whipping up xenophobia is *not* a good thing.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 7, 2006 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

Whipping up xenophobia is *not* a good thing.

We're not whipping anything up. The vast majority of suicide bombers are foreigners and they're killing Iraqi's. What would you expect? It's a good thing they kill foreign insurgents and it's even better the message gets out not to bother coming in the 1st place.

It's never good to kill innocents.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

"the vast majority of suicide bombers are foreigners"
Do they have made in Syria stamped on their skulls? What a stupid thing to say.

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

The fanciful rdw is confident the GOP can run on liberal-bashing forever.

It's never smart to run on liberal bashing. The democrats will blow this opportunity just as they did in 04, 02 and 00 because they don't have a positive message.

Liberal bashing isn't a campaign strategy it's a sport. I love it when the unemployment rate drops form 6.4% to 4.7% and these simple asses run on outsourcing..

Liberal hate Walmart.

Walmart is one of the largest private employers who regularly gets 10 applicants for every job opening while serving the eocnomic group you are pretending to help. These applicants just aren't as smart as liberals. They're too stupid to know it's a bad job.

Liberals are distraugh over Kyoto when it's a total disaster in every way. It's created pollution.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

The only foreigners skulking around Iraq today are Al Qaeda. It's a very good thing.

Is that so? Only al-Qaeda?

I think our mentally and morally-challenged friend rdw has not only made a fool of himself by alleging that the only foreigners in Iraq are al-Qaeda, he has also unwittingly accused the following groups of being members:

Troops from the following countries, including: the United States of America, Great Britian, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Lithuania, Slovakia et al.

Members of the Red Cross, the Red Crescent (no Arabs in there), Amnesty International, various aid agencies and physicians who've traveled to Iraq to assist.

Thousands of contractors from many ethnic backgrounds doing every kind of conceivable work; engineers, laborers, heavy machinery operators, truckers, line workers, etc.

And many more.

It's clear from this list that if rdw is correct, then al-Qaeda's recruitment efforst in Iraa have been successful beyond its wildest dreams, ensnaring tens of thousand of Americans alone with its forceful propaganda.

One thing at least is true: all those groups mentioned above are being shot at by Iraqis.

But seriously folks, some questions for rdw and other minions like him:

If Iraq is a success and we'll be pulling out by election time -- then why do Iraqis need to shoot foreigners on sight? How could it possibly deem it successful when you've created a country that needs to kill foreigners on sight in order to maintain safety?

How could it possibly be deemed successful when over 14,000 prisoners have been held in Abu Ghraib for up to two years with no charges levied against them, no trials to determine their innocence, and when some are as young as eleven years old?

How could it possibly be deemed a success when oil production is still below pre-war levels? When Iran is exporting paramilitary groups to Basra? When government officials are sabotaging the creation of a national army, running secret torture rooms, forming clandestine sectarian death squads, and siphoning off billions of dollars in cash for their own purposes? When people are living with very little electricity, waits in line of over a day for fuel, soaring unemployment, runaway inflation, broken sewers and difficulty obtaining clean water?

The answer to all these questions is: of course it isn't a success. And the blame can be laid squarely at the feet of the man who made the decision to invade and destabilize the country, and those who supported him.

Posted by: trex on March 7, 2006 at 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

The vast majority of suicide bombers are foreigners and they're killing Iraqi's.

Please provide evidence (link?) to support this statement.

Posted by: nut on March 7, 2006 at 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

Is RDW Rush? Or is Rush all he listen's to? Poor Fool.

Posted by: Ahmadd Bacrad on March 7, 2006 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

Do they have made in Syria stamped on their skulls? What a stupid thing to say.

Many of them do. Many also have Saudi stamped on their head.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

GWB has created 5.5M jobs ..

Even if true, the number is less than 33% of the number of jobs created by Clinton.

Posted by: whatdayasay on March 7, 2006 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

Is RDW Rush? Or is Rush all he listen's to? Poor Fool.

Rush is a great and incredibly influential man. While I consider myself a dittohead I don't get to listen to him often. The cool thing about talk radio is there are 3 nation-wide conservative networks 24/7.

One of these days I'll get an Ipod and download his show to get the wit and wisdom but for now 12 - 3 is just a bad time.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Jay: Well that has to be true considering those two sources of unquestionable journalistic integrity.

What you speak of is credibility that you can rely upon. What of the trustworthiness of these two sources in their own words?

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Cheney -- Vice President Speaks at VFW 103rd National Convention, White House (8/26/2002)
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. -- President George W. Bush -- President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003).
We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. ...And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." -- President George W. Bush -- Interview of the President by TVP, Poland, White House (5/29/2003).
"I continue to believe. I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi government." -- Vice President Dick Cheney -- Morning Edition, NPR (1/22/2004).
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees.'' -- President George W. Bush -- ABC's Good Morning America (9/1/2005)
Didn't Bush and Cheney promise to bring honor and integrity back to the Oval Office? Yeah, that's some source of integrity we've got in the WH. But, speaking of preaching "doom and gloom," as Jay laments, can't forget Condi!
"The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we dont want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." --National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice -- Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, CNN (9/8/2002).
Ooga-booga! Look at what that kind of doom and gloom got us!


Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

Oy! The Clem Kadiddlehopper bot is back!

Dum-dee-doh-doh-doh.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

Even if true, the number is less than 33% of the number of jobs created by Clinton.

Excellent point but irrelevent. The point was bitching about outsourcing when unemployment is dropping like a stone is just stupid.

But do talk up the Great and Good William Jefferson Clinton. We need men like him and we need them now. Since we can't nominate him please let us do the two for one deal. It's the only way to get him back in the WH where he belongs.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

Joel: This may be wishful thinking. I doubt Turkey will be able to resist invading a Kurdish state on its border, both because of the issue of Kurdish autonomy and because of the oil.

It will be interesting, won't it, when our NATO ally and our Kurdish ally go head to head.

Not that Iran or Syria, both of which have substantial Kurdish populations of their own, are going to be wild about an independent Kurdistan either.

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:13 PM | PERMALINK

Ooga-booga! Look at what that kind of doom and gloom got us!

John Roberts, Sam Alito, Tax cuts, strongest GDP growth in 20 years, dumping of Kyoto and the ABM treaty, out of NATO and away for the EU, closer tied with India, Pakistan, Japan, Australia, etc., rapidly declining union membership and a continued migration from blue states to red states.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

"The vast majority of suicide bombers are foreigners and they're killing Iraqi's."

Of course, it does not follow from this statement- if it is even true in the first place- that the vast majority of foreigners (or people that may be mistaken for foreigners) are suicide bombers.

P(A|B) does not necessarily equal P(B|A)

"Do they have made in Syria stamped on their skulls? What a stupid thing to say.

Many of them do. Many also have Saudi stamped on their head."

As someone who has been mistaken for 4 different racial/ethnic groups at one time or another, I guess I am not as confident as you are in the foreigner-detection ability of irritable tribesmen.

Posted by: MJ Memphis on March 7, 2006 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

a continued migration from blue states to red states.

This should read: "a continued migration from jobs with manufacturers to jobs working at Piggly Wiggly and Chick-Fil-A for one-quarter the pay."

That's the primary reason for red state immigration.

Posted by: trex on March 7, 2006 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

Ned Flanders: The only major difference this time is that Sadr decided to let his goons loose again. Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

Shouldn't that "someone" have been the U.S. forces commanded by Bush? You know, the ones who vowed a year and a half ago that they were going to "capture or kill" Sadr?

Poor sad Flanders. Can't bring himself to type "Bush should have..." because to do so would be to blame his idol, so he has to resort to the mealy-mouthed "someone" instead.

Does it bother Flanders to have no consistent foreign policy positions at all, other than "find out what Bush will do, and support it"?

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

It will be interesting, won't it, when our NATO ally and our Kurdish ally go head to head.

You've got to read outside the MSM. Turkey has already signed a tentative deal for a huge pipeline along with drilling equipment and other oil services. The turkish-kurd border is one of the busiest in the world as the transit route for goods into Northern Iraqi. The Kurds are absorbing Kurdish refugees at a rapid rate lessoning a burden on Turkey. Turkey and the Kurdish North have everything to gain from a peaceful and very prosperous relationship.

Turkey could defeat the Kurds for sure but then have their own insurgency to deal with. The Kurds are well defended and would extract a high price before they head into the mountains. They would not dream of doing so on GWBs watch. It would be very, very expensive for them.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 12:25 PM | PERMALINK

John Roberts, Sam Alito, Tax cuts, strongest GDP growth in 20 years, dumping of Kyoto and the ABM treaty, out of NATO and away for the EU, closer tied with India, Pakistan, Japan, Australia, etc., rapidly declining union membership and a continued migration from blue states to red states.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Instamatic Cliff Clavin Answer! Why bother to read through paragraphs and paragraphs of wild-eyed, angry, lunatic nonsense when you can consult this handly little summary of wingnut talking points instead! Handy to plug into any Cliff Clavin post -- just add water and stir!

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

And though a "civil war" is not ideal, our country went through one and survived.

Yes, and it only cost us 700,000 dead, millions more maimed, wounded, raped and dislocated, millions made refugees, and a continuing division and festering resentment in our national polity that still stretches to this day, 151 years after the war ended.

By the way, nice use of scare quotes around "civil war." Here's another one you can try: 'And although "rape" is not ideal, women go through one and survive.' Yeah, not that bad, is it....

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK
The only major difference this time is that Sadr decided to let his goons loose again. Someone should have taken him out after his last uprising.

Yeah, because just as when his son and father-in-law were "taken out" under Saddam, that would kill the movement he is associated with.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 7, 2006 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan: It will be interesting, won't it, when our NATO ally and our Kurdish ally go head to head. ...Not that Iran or Syria, both of which have substantial Kurdish populations of their own, are going to be wild about an independent Kurdistan either.

But isn't that the point of Operation FUBAR in Iraq? To stir up the natives and and their neighbors, to engage the ME nations in their own region so that they're too busy fighting each other over there instead of us over here? LOL! Kinda keeps oil prices high, too. Someone is smiling at Mobil-Exxon.

This shot just flies over the Clem Kadiddlehopper bot's head at light speed.

...just add water and stir!

Good one! However, I prefer mine shaken, not stirred.

Posted by: Apollo 13 on March 7, 2006 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

Ditto head,How can a person say that with a straight face,Hi Rush Ditto's. Simple minds I guess.

Posted by: Ahmadd Bacrad on March 7, 2006 at 12:35 PM | PERMALINK

Only rdw could rejoice in people losing good jobs and high standards of living in exchange for Wal Mart jobs and (ugh) red state living.


I suppose you see the Northwest Pilot's concession of a 40% pay cut as a good thing too?

Posted by: Tripp on March 7, 2006 at 12:35 PM | PERMALINK

The only thing funny about Iraq is the left's constant craving for bad news. There is a lot of good things happening over there which is NEVER reported. Can you say "self-fulfilling prophecy"?

Wait, I can never keep these talking point straight. Is Iraq the new paradise on earth in which things are going swell and a nascent democracy is being born, or is it the central front in the war on terror to which we're trying to lure the worlds' terrorists so that we can wipe them out? Because it's kind of hard to be both at the same time....

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

Just because I enjoy it so, here again is noted anti-American traitor and raving lefty John Derbyshire of National Review Online's The Corner on the situation in Iraq:


Ralph Peters, if you read closely, was riding around Baghdad in a Humvee. Security conditions in the city would not have permmitted him to stroll around on his own. That is three years into the occupation.

It's nice that the Baghdadis are driving their cars, running their businesses, and going to their jobs. Perhaps, after one year or two years, they got tired of sitting at home doing nothing. This tells us nothing about the future of Iraq.

Of course most Iraqis would like to live normal lives, and do not wish to be blown up. The same, I am sure, was true of most Russians in 1916, or most Germans in 1932, or most Iranians in 1978. This is facile stuff. Getting from what most people want, to a political order that will provide it, is some trick, as the history of the human race surely demonstrates. Can the Iraqis pull it off? Can we pull it off for them? Those are the issues.

Yes, I know, Rummy said it's going to be "a long, hard slog." But --- three years into the occupation, and we still haven't secured the capital city? For goodness' sake.

I find Peters' columns increasingly irritating.

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:43 PM | PERMALINK

Here's something the lefties can embrace. Just think of the innocent Iraqi's as a massive group of oppressed homosexuals and the others are pregnant teens unable to get an abortion because of the looming theocracy. We'll call it "Brokeback Iraq". Now that is something that you might fight for.

And you're right Stefan, the effects of our civil war are still with us today. Maybe reparations would help huh? Afterall the self loathing left have yet to do enough for everyone (except the Iraqi's of course). Let's blame the plight of minorities on the that evil institution we'll call Amercia. Let's blame the plight of the middle east (which has been in turmoil for centuries) on Bush. Works for me.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

It's simple.

When they are standing down, it's a nascent democracy. When they are standing up, it's the central front in the war on terror.

Or vice versa.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Oh for God's sakes, Jay. It's "Iraqis" not "Iraqi's." Learn to write. I'm ashamed for you everytime I read one of your posts.

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:49 PM | PERMALINK

When they are standing down, it's a nascent democracy. When they are standing up, it's the central front in the war on terror.

OK, but what if they're sort of halfway between standing up and standing down, like in a kind of crouch. What then?

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:50 PM | PERMALINK

You're ashamed of me for my spelling and I am ashamed of you for, well being you. Remember, I am just poking fun at the losers, you specifically.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

Jay is probably Freedom Fighter in drag. Note the same junior GOP talking points and teenaged vocab.

Must be tough to be Jay.

Posted by: Larue D on March 7, 2006 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

Remember, I am just poking fun at the losers, you specifically.

Oh, well then, bravo. Job well done, I'm sure.

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 12:58 PM | PERMALINK

Jay, the thread is about civil war in Iraq. You keep making references to 'poking fun at the losers' as you constantly try and derail the thread.


Who lost? The Iraqis? The US? You think it's funny that Iraq is ready to boil over into sectarian violence?

Is it funny that troops die in Iraq? Is it funny that more civilians die in Iraq? Ha ha, what a riot.

Posted by: Larue D on March 7, 2006 at 1:02 PM | PERMALINK

The lefties really need to keep in mind that all is lost without the superior intellect of the left at work. There is no way we can defeat people with towels on their heads who drive toyotas with bombs in them without someone like Nancy Pelosi showing us the way. We will always be dependent on their oil because of the fact that the two-billed snippet occupies the fragile frozen tundra of ANWR and our floundering technology will never be able to develop greener energies. And now that the teenagers of South Dakota can not get an abortion, we may as well fold our tents. We're done, let's say our apologies and go home and just hope someone with superior intellect and intentions like, Barbara Boxer will lead this nation back to superiority, oh wait bad choice of words, we don't want to be superior that might offend someone somwhere for some reason. Must stay politically correct.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 1:02 PM | PERMALINK

More people die in this country on a daily basis from AIDS, abortion, and diseases than die in your "sectarian violence" (that's a fun word isn't, kind of sounds multi-national and smart). Nothing is funny about Iraq, there are a lot of good people there trying to fight for their survival and their country from those who seek to impose oppression (that would be your freedom fighters). The only thinkg I find funny is the constant negative nattering of all of the losers here, but I must admit it's a fun way to start the day. Carry on ol chap.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 1:06 PM | PERMALINK

OK, but what if they're sort of halfway between standing up and standing down, like in a kind of crouch. What then?

You just invented the new field of Socio-Political Orthopedics.

Posted by: lib on March 7, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

Cut 'N Run Jay: More people die in this country on a daily basis from AIDS, abortion, and diseases than die in your "sectarian violence" (that's a fun word isn't, kind of sounds multi-national and smart).

Ah, here I see Cut 'N Run Jay is back to his favorite talking point: trashing America by his claim that "at least Iraq isn't as bad as the US!"

This is the same Cut 'N Run Jay (a name bestowed on him by Pale Rider for his earlier insistence that we cut and run from Iraq) who last week was going on about the culture of "corruption and death" in America. So why does Cut 'N Run Jay hate America so much?

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

Why does shit-for-brains Stefan continue to make me point out his wonderful liberal tolerance for those whom he disagrees with not too mention his deep concern for those being oppressed by violent theocracies?

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

Jay, you hang here out to soak up some of our superior intellect. I hope you can pass on some of that learning to your, Plastic Jesus on the dash, pick up truck driving{with a gun rack}trailer park living redneck am talk radio conservative buddies. Gee ain't sterotypes fun?

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 1:24 PM | PERMALINK

Neo, are you my neighbor? Hot damn, let's go hunting with Cheney this weekend!

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 1:28 PM | PERMALINK

As I have always said war, civil war or otherwise, is good for this country. All I want is to just add Iran, and Israel into the picture (Cheney is on top of that), and we'll have the destabilization of middle east, killing all terrorists, purifying its soil, before democracy can take root. Civil war is good for this country, democracy and the world.

And you libs have too much to focus on. The one thing that is consistent with this presidency is the dogged persistent focus on war. Which is why I vote for him. Keep on the good work, Bush & Cheney et al.


Posted by: Mini Al on March 7, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

Yup I live down the road yonder.Past the Quick shop.

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

Good one Neo, gotta have a sense of humor in these times.

Posted by: Jay on March 7, 2006 at 1:35 PM | PERMALINK

Damn right Jay.

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

Jay you dropped the ball,(The Middle east has been in turmoil for Centuries)And it is all going to turn around with a snap of G.W. fingers,Well how is that working for you.And I will be the first one to admitt this.Iraq needs a Strong fisted leader,As much as you hate Saddam he was good for that region.We are just as much at fault as he is in the needless death of human life.

Posted by: Ahmadd Bacrad on March 7, 2006 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

Only rdw could rejoice in people losing good jobs and high standards of living in exchange for Wal Mart jobs and (ugh) red state living.

I rejoice at capitalism which is the greatest system of wealth creation in the history of civilization. I rejoice at the death of socialism. I can take a ride in any direction and not go more than 5 miles without passing a new development of McMansions. Our generation has wealth our parents never dreamt of. Our grandchildren will have wealth we never dreampt of.

Walmart is not only a testament to the greatness of capitalism in becoming the biggest and most profitable retailer in history but is also a reason why we spend less than half what our parents did for clothing and have 5x's the selection. Walmart is we get so spend so much on or tpyslike $45 DVDs and $200 digital camera's and $125 Ipods and $400 laptops and $1,000 55" HDTVs.

If liberals run on economic misery in 06 you are certain to lose. American's hate the 'woe is me' act of losers.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 1:49 PM | PERMALINK

just for perspective...


The Pentagon says that "the -only- Iraqi battalion capable of fighting without U.S. support has been downgraded." February 25, 2006


...more americans have died in iraq --since-- saddam was captured...than in all his time in power...

"We are not killing them faster than they are being created." - Brig. Gen. Robert Caslen, the Pentagon's deputy director for the war on terrorism. 3/2/06

Posted by: thisspaceavailable on March 7, 2006 at 1:52 PM | PERMALINK

And 34% of the people believe what RDW says.So if your all caught up in materialistic items by all means vote (R).

Posted by: Ahmadd Bacrad on March 7, 2006 at 1:57 PM | PERMALINK

*sigh* Why does Brig. Gen. Robert Caslen, the Pentagon's deputy director of the war on terrorism, hate America?

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

The sound of success:

We woke up this morning to the sounds of many explosions in Baghdad and since we are familiar with those sounds we recognized that these were no doubt mortar shelling but not like the usual which is one or two rounds fired by some terrorists in a hit and run manner; this time fire was exchanged between two or more groups and lasted for more than an hour.

This prompts Mohammed to write:

I always talk to my father when things get complicated; this man lived through the times of the monarchy, the first republic, the pan-Arab nationalists and the Ba'ath and he's from the generation that ruled Iraq for decades and many of our current politicians belong to this generation. This makes men like my father closer to understanding the way his generation thinks as well as its internal conflicts, so I threw at him the urging questions and confused thoughts I had in my head:

Me: How is this mess going to resolve dad?

Dad: it is not.

Me: Are you positive? Why?

Dad: People find solutions only if they wanted to and I think many of the political players do not want a solution.

Posted by: trex on March 7, 2006 at 2:02 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, rdw can buy stuff. He can buy lots of stuff. He can buy lots of cheap stuff at Walmart. He can get his fashion duds, and his latest small digital whachamacallit, because that is what freedom is all about.

Hooray, buying is happiness! Things to have is what America stands for!

Just think, someday when Iraq is a flowing land of democracy and honey, they too can have miles and miles of strip malls and loitering teens.

Somehow, rdw, I can see you in the latest Walmart fashion. It suits your waistline well.

Posted by: Larue D on March 7, 2006 at 2:03 PM | PERMALINK

I just had a thought the insurgents in Iraq are just like rdw. They never engage you directly. Constantly misdirecting you. Distorting facts. You can't win an arguement with rdw. So with such similar tactics I can't see how we could ever"win"in the Middle East.

Posted by: Neo on March 7, 2006 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

Where's Cheney?

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000045.php

Posted by: parrot on March 7, 2006 at 2:15 PM | PERMALINK

If you really want to lose faith in the human race, read the comments to his post on Mohammed's blog: you won't see that much desperate masturbation outside of an adult pay site.

The comments run the gamut from outright patronization ("your father is a sad and cynical man who can't see all the beautiful possibilities: hang in there buddy, eventually you'll defeat the terrorists and everything will be wonderful!), to the 101st Keyboarders having the temerity to accuse Mohammed of being a chickenhawk and naysayer, to the very dim "why can't you guys just all get along?"

Unfuckingbelievable.

Posted by: trex on March 7, 2006 at 2:18 PM | PERMALINK


General William E. Odom , former director of the National Security Agency, wrote for NiemanWatchdog.org back in August: "Iraqis are already fighting Iraqis. Insurgents have killed far more Iraqis than Americans. That's civil war. We created the civil war when we invaded; we can't prevent a civil war by staying."

why does general odom hate america?


Posted by: thisspaceavailable on March 7, 2006 at 2:57 PM | PERMALINK

rdw,

Just what generation are you part of? I'm guessing you are a late baby boomer. Old enough to have gotten a decent job and young enough you haven't had your health start to fail.

Am I right?

You better talk to Mammon about that cheap-consumer-goods god you are worshiping. I don't think cheap crap will serve you well on your deathbed.

Posted by: Tripp on March 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK

Whew, Jay and rdw, poking fun at "losers" and buying cheap crap at WalMart.

Who says Americans live shallow meaningless lives?

Posted by: Tripp on March 7, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK

Pakistan has been in a state of civil war for most of its existence. Under Benazir Bhutto there was daily fighting in the streets of the largest cities. Yesterday there were more than 50 combat casualties in one of the autonomous tribal regions.

Last year the Shi'ites wanted American forces to protect them from Sunnis. More recently, the Sunni leaders have been seeking protection, against the Shi'ite gangs, from the US.

With the impetus for fighting coming from many small militias, I wonder what form the civil war will take. What will the Iraqi army do? Will the Kurds quickly take and pacify Kirkuk?

The Brookings Institution's Iraq report had the murder rate due to criminal gangs approximately 3 times the death rate due to factional fighting. Unlike the Iraqi army, it seems that the militias mostly attack undefended targets and unarmed civilians, and leave the murderers (many released from prison by Saddam just before the invasion) alone.

Reportedly, the majority of Sunnis now back the Iraq government more strongly than before, and are turning strongly against the jihdists in their midst.

Posted by: republicrat on March 7, 2006 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

The Brookings Institution's Iraq report had the murder rate due to criminal gangs approximately 3 times the death rate due to factional fighting.

Which, of course, pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin of the trumpeting of Iraq as a triumph of democracy.

A government that can't maintain order is not legitimate, period, full stop. Thomas Hobbes had that one figured out in the 17th Century. I'm just waiting for the Bush Cultists to catch up.

Posted by: Gregory on March 7, 2006 at 3:22 PM | PERMALINK

The Brookings Institution's Iraq report had the murder rate due to criminal gangs approximately 3 times the death rate due to factional fighting.

It's a little hard, though, to separate those out, as the same group may operate as a sectarian militia one day and as a criminal gang the next. Many of the militias raise money by engaging in car theft, kidnapping, extortion, robbery, etc. What we do know, though, is that there is an incredible rate of daily violence in Iraq.

Posted by: Stefan on March 7, 2006 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

The Brookings Institution's Iraq report had the murder rate due to criminal gangs approximately 3 times the death rate due to factional fighting.

rummy less than 2-hours ago.....


Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says Iraq is not on the brink of civil war, and he blames the media for falsely beating the war drums.

Rumsfeld says civil war in Iraq has always been a threat because of the natural tensions that exist among elements of its society. He says elements that were once held together through ``repression and fear'' in the Saddam Hussein era are now trying to hash out new relationships, and friction is to be expected.

Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Peter Pace also told Pentagon reporters today that he believes Iraqi factions were in much greater danger of warring among themselves a week or two ago. He thinks ``they've looked into the abyss and decided that's not where we want to go.''

Posted by: thisspaceavailable on March 7, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

rdw: Check out Michaeltotten.com for a look at the Kurdish North. They've had peace for 3 years and are in the front edge of an economic boom. They've added almost 1M in population (The region is home to 20M Kurds) in this period and continue to grow. They have massive oil deposits, plenty of water, secure borders, massive investment and low unemployment. They also have pending trade and development deals with Turkey, Norway, Israel and of course the USA and EU. Saddam refused to survey this region for oil and they could easily have over 40B barrels. Obviously a lot of people want to be their friends.

It's amazing what can happen when you have a president, Clinton, who was willing to protect the Kurds with no-fly zones, rather than conservative presidents like Reagan and Bush who aided and abetted Saddam when he was murdering Kurds and stifling their economy.

Now, why didn't Reagan and Bush 41 want to be friends with the Kurds?

Because they liked Saddam better!

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 7, 2006 at 4:46 PM | PERMALINK

Snicker-snack,

You're Canadian. How could you know any (American) conservatives?

Well, let's see, like Jeff II and a few other posters here I live in Japan where there are one or two Americans. I'm also in the States for business for about two weeks of the year. But actually, the people I was talking about are not really conservatives. They were (and note the were) Republican voters. They liked what they thought was the message of independence that the Republican party gave but didn't pay overmuch attention. Now they're paying attention and don't like what they see. (Like me) they may not like wishy-washy, squishy Dems but they're beginning to feel that is more their home policy-wise.

Comments on the growth in red-state seats. 1, 2, 3...

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 7, 2006 at 7:36 PM | PERMALINK

It's amazing what can happen when you have a president, Clinton, who was willing to protect the Kurds with no-fly zones, rather than conservative presidents like Reagan and Bush who aided and abetted Saddam when he was murdering Kurds and stifling their economy.

The no-fly zones were created and enforced under GHWB. Clinton inherited the policy. GWB took out saddam and freed the Kurds forever.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

They were (and note the were) Republican voters.

GWB increased his vote total by 23% in 2004 over 2000. By that math for every GOP vote we lost we picked up 20 Democratic vote. So that's how we ran the talbe picking up seats in the Senate, House and Supreme Court.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 8:53 PM | PERMALINK

Who says Americans live shallow meaningless lives?

Who cares what they say?

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 8:55 PM | PERMALINK

So people like Saddam who stopped civil war by war crimes are all cool as an alternative to a free state vulnerable to terrorist attempts to provoke violence?

So why are we jailing Milosevic and all them then....

So perhaps the American civil war was wrong, after all it let to a 20-40 year period of Ku Klux Klan domination of the South...

Posted by: McA on March 7, 2006 at 8:55 PM | PERMALINK

Am I right?

52 - very decent job and excellent medical benefits. My oldest daughter is a nurse with the same and her husband is a carpenter with the same. I have 18 nieces and nephews over the age of 23 and all are doing quite well with 4 of them public school teachers making outstanding pay with better benefits. 16 of them are married and two have non-working spouse. Not a single one is without health insurance.

Most of them worked for a Walmart or a similiar job when they were in school. It was perfect for them.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 9:01 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, rdw can buy stuff. He can buy lots of stuff. He can buy lots of cheap stuff at Walmart.

You're not one of those liberal elitists looking down your nose at Walmart shoppers are you?

Now that's pathetic.

I'm one of those conservatives who left their teenage years behind them long ago. What that means is that not only do I not give a crap about what the French think about anything but I don't care what you think about where I shop or what I wear.

I will admit to being a tap pathetic when it comes to fashion. I don't buy my clothes from Walmart. I don't buy clothes. My wife does. In addition to being left-handed I have a bit of color-blindness. Fortunately when the good Lord takes away in one area he gives in another. In my case it's political insight.

Posted by: rdw on March 7, 2006 at 9:13 PM | PERMALINK
GWB increased his vote total by 23% in 2004 over 2000. By that math for every GOP vote we lost we picked up 20 Democratic vote.

Er, no. I can't even figure out what kind of bizarre assumptions you might be making that would make that caculation sound reasonable to you.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 7, 2006 at 9:24 PM | PERMALINK

GWB increased his vote total by 23% in 2004 over 2000

and in the current American system, many of these votes can't be verified but have to be accepted on faith.

Me, I'm a show me kind of guy.

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 8, 2006 at 12:10 AM | PERMALINK

cm, caculation's a start.

Might I suggest though cackleation or cuckoolation?

Posted by: snicker-snack on March 8, 2006 at 3:23 AM | PERMALINK

Er, no. I can't even figure out what kind of bizarre assumptions you might be making that would make that caculation sound reasonable to you.

I'm just enjoying the libs creaming in their pants over GWBs silde in the polls. As is their custom they are a day late and a dollar short. He's not running again. In the only recent poll that matters he increased his vote total by 23%. You have 3 more years to enjoy his polls. I have 3 more years of the Roberts Supreme Court, NSA wiretapping, Patriot Act, extended tax cuts, more deals with India and the continued evacuation of Western Europe by Americans.

Posted by: rdw on March 8, 2006 at 6:56 AM | PERMALINK

and in the current American system, many of these votes can't be verified but have to be accepted on faith.

Which is very easy to do in Christian America. It doesn't much matter what the rest of the world thinks now does it? You do have American liberals upset. Like teenagers they are very embarrassed they're so upopular with you sophisticates. For conservatives it the best affirmation we can get we're on the correct path. Keep it coming.

Posted by: rdw on March 8, 2006 at 7:00 AM | PERMALINK

You guys still hoping for your civil war? It didn't happen in a week. Let's try a month, how 'bout we give your hoped for civil war a month?

Still upset about eavesdropping on people talking to known terrorists in other countries?

Still running against Presicent Bush?

You know why your issues are losers? Because they are one sentence issues and you can't fully explain them because if you give context, you arguments just weaken.

You can only stick with "NSA Wiretapping", then you have to count on the listener to fill in imagined nefarious details.

Posted by: tool of some sort on March 8, 2006 at 8:34 AM | PERMALINK

and in the current American system, many of these votes can't be verified but have to be accepted on faith.

Which is very easy to do in Christian America

Yep. Absolutomundo. You can't really claim to be a proper democracy unless you have the Dominionists in charge of the vote count and uh, unaccountably so. That 70% of your votes can still be verified must be a source of embarrassment. But hey, don't worry. We're worse. We can still double-check 100% of our votes. The shame!!

Posted by: snicker-snack, flogging on a dead thread on March 8, 2006 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

You can't really claim to be a proper democracy

I can. I do. You are entitled to your opinion. Any may God bless you for it. But I don't care what it is. It doesn't have any effect on my life and never will. American liberals will feel your pain. It makes my day.

Posted by: rdw on March 8, 2006 at 11:20 AM | PERMALINK

Iraq has always been in civil war. We are in the process of ending that. America will achieve victory in Iraq, despite what you liberals wish :)

As for our ambassador, he is just trying to scare the Iraqui politicians. Keep that in mind when he speaks. :)

Posted by: Tymbrimi on March 8, 2006 at 3:28 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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