Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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March 13, 2006
By: Ogged

No One Benefits

Stunning news this morning that an unprescribed antibiotic--one that would have made his high blood pressure medication largely ineffective--was found in Slobodan Milosevic's system. This is disastrous news for institutions of international justice, since it will be played as murder in a lot of the world. The tribunal maintains that Milosevic was surreptitiously undermining his own treatment because he hoped that ill health and charges of poisoning would be his ticket out of custody and to Moscow, which, one assumes, he hoped wouldn't hand him over again.

I'm sure that most people in the West, being convinced (rightly, of course) of Milosevic's perfidy, will quickly believe that this was more likely a form of suicide than murder, but it's hard to overstate how important it is that the tribunal launch a full investigation, and be able to explain how Mr. Milosevic got the drugs, if indeed he was deliberately taking them.

Ogged 10:57 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (75)

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Comments

Suicide by antibiotic? I doubt it. Stupidity? Maybe. However, who gives a crap? Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Posted by: Yancey Ward on March 13, 2006 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

This can't be Political Animal!

There's no hand-wringing about knee-jerk leftists who are hostile to Christianity in this post!

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Posted by: cdj on March 13, 2006 at 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

Assuming this is true, I'm not sure nobody benefits. This is akin to a situation facing the administration... what do you do if you insist that democracy is the solution to all the world's ills, and because of your stupidity democracy produces an undesirable outcome?

Bringing vermin to justice often helps bring about closure, etc. But when Justice is mishandled and the process gets hijacked by the vermin, the end result will be making things worse. Clearly, in this instance, the folks running the legal proceedings lost control of the situation to Dan the Slob (or whatever his name translates as) M.

Knocking him off before things can get any worse has potentially two positive effects. First, local - it prevents the circus from deteriorating even further. Second, more broadly - it keeps this from being perceived widely as an example of how Justice doesn't work. Of course, if the kocking off Big Slob Dan was probably handled by the same idiots who lost control of the situation in the first place (does GW have any relatives out there?) it is not unlikely things will actually get worse.

Posted by: cactus on March 13, 2006 at 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

why not just go with the simplest hypothesis?

He had recently signed up for Medicare Part D.

Posted by: Tad Brennan on March 13, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

The simplest hypothesis is, surely, that Cheney shot him in the face.

Posted by: craigie on March 13, 2006 at 11:36 AM | PERMALINK

and just why should his "perfidy" convice me of suicide?

Posted by: Rick on March 13, 2006 at 11:37 AM | PERMALINK

When you're dead, you're dead.

Get over it.

Posted by: JimBobRay on March 13, 2006 at 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

There's no argument that he committed suicide. The argument is that he was trying to worsen his condition sufficiently to bring the trial to a halt and, with any luck, be sent to Moscow for treatment.

The other possibility is that he was murdered.

The death is catastrophic for the restoration of democracy in Serbia, where the majority will certainly conclude that he was murdered, thus inflaming the paranoid rage that Milosevic himself so expertly exploited.

What kind of security do they have there in the Hague? This is the second death of a Serb war criminal in as many weeks. How did Milosevic obtain the antibiotic? Or if he didn't obtain it, who was poisoning him with it?

Posted by: JR on March 13, 2006 at 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

oh shit

Posted by: doesn't matter on March 13, 2006 at 11:52 AM | PERMALINK

"There's no argument that he committed suicide. "

Would follow in the family tradition - both Slobodan's parents topped themselves.

Posted by: Urinated State of America on March 13, 2006 at 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

The death is catastrophic for the restoration of democracy in Serbia
And you think that Milosevic was the answer? When did communists become the answer for democracy?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

Goering managed to commit suicide with cyanide. The potasium cyanide dose that will kill 1/2 the population is around 300mg. a one time smuggling operation.

The standard dose of Rifampin is about 600mg, though I have no idea how much would need to be take to induce the change in metabolic action of the liver cells. In any case, it would have to be taken for some time to interfere with the other medications. How did Milosevic get a continuing supply of this drug smuggled to himself?

Posted by: m on March 13, 2006 at 11:56 AM | PERMALINK

My understanding is that the drug was identified in his system 2 weeks before his death.

What happened in the intervening 2 weeks seems rather important. There should have been a full scale investigation, a move to a new cell, a 24 hour watch of Milosovic, a restriction on his contacts, etc.

Posted by: B on March 13, 2006 at 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

This post sucks. No graphs, no kittens, nothing. When is Kevin getting back?

As to the specifics of the post - I'm not sure it matters any more. We've violated some pretty basic norms for our society, and the general populace of our country hasn't been particularly shocked by it. I think it's reasonable for outsiders to wonder precisely what is enforcing Western claimed boundaries if it isn't either strong norms or the legal system. And, absent a credible answer, it's at least reasonable for outsiders to stop trusting that such norms are all that well rooted in our society.

Maybe Milosovic's death is another brick removed from our argument, but I think it's hard to make the case that it is a particularly important one.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on March 13, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

His death was catastrophic because of the reaction it will cause in the Serbian electorate, not because he himself was ever going to be a candidate.

Posted by: washerdreyer on March 13, 2006 at 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

If Milosovic becomes a martyr, that's BAD. Really, how hard is that to figure out?

Posted by: Viserys on March 13, 2006 at 12:04 PM | PERMALINK

the drug found in his system was rifampin, used to treat TB and as a preventive for meningitis. the key question to be answered is whether or not this drug was prescribed to him legitimately. if so, then yes, there is culpability on the part of the Hague as it suggests that his medical care may not have been proper. if not, then there are serious questions to be asked, and the Hague may be answerable there as well. how did this drug get smuggled in to Milosevic? what else gets in?

we need to look at this seriously, as I fully expect that there will be other war crimes tribunals in the future, and who knows what other former heads of state may be sitting in that dock.

Posted by: sp on March 13, 2006 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

Who gives a shit about Serbian elections?

Posted by: lib on March 13, 2006 at 12:05 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe the CIA is trying to discredit the international court.

Posted by: conspiracywalnut on March 13, 2006 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

If Milosovic becomes a martyr, that's BAD. Really, how hard is that to figure out?
Martyrs all share one trait: they're dead.

And here's your clue: It's not like Serbia is currently a wonderful, peaceful paradise enjoyed by millions and the preferred vacation destination for the rich and famous. The wheels are already off, and you're worried that ... what? The wheels are going to come off?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 12:09 PM | PERMALINK

Conspiracy Nut, you're right. One thing history has tought us is that things can't get any worse in the Balkans.

Posted by: Boronx on March 13, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Boronx: I hope you're being sarcastic. Things always can get worse in the Balkans.

Conspiracy Nut: the wheels may be off, but the rag in the gas tank hasn't caught fire yet...

Posted by: mymble on March 13, 2006 at 12:29 PM | PERMALINK
Maybe the CIA is trying to discredit the international court.

While its been lower key than with the ICC (which, presumably, is the main target), Bush has been trying to discredit and terminate the ICTY for quite some time; certainly, suggesting a US effort here is unsupported by any evidence so far, but its, as conspiracy theories go, far from the least plausible.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 13, 2006 at 12:32 PM | PERMALINK

The death is catastrophic for the restoration of democracy in Serbia, where the majority will certainly conclude that he was murdered, thus inflaming the paranoid rage that Milosevic himself so expertly exploited.Posted by: JR

The problem with this hope is that a sizeable number of Serbians still thought of him as a great leader. So no matter what happened at the trial, there are too many people who believe he wasn't guilty of anything.

In short, it seems that the Serbians aren't really ready to become a "normal nation."

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 12:44 PM | PERMALINK

the wheels may be off, but the rag in the gas tank hasn't caught fire yet...
I was scouting around on the Death by Government page, but they cut off before Milosevic. So I found this:

At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. [source]
And you think Milosevic is the answer for peace and democracy? Stalin, Mao, Che, Idi Amin, Castro, Pol Pot, you lefties sure have an odd idea of who should be worshipped.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 12:47 PM | PERMALINK

Having used rifampicin/rifampin at my job quite a bit, it's hard for me to imagine that Milosevic could have taken it without his knowledge, and it's also odd that no one noticed. This is because (a) rifampin is bright orange, comes in a fairly large capsule, and would make your food look and taste funny if you took it out of the capsule; (b) it usually turns your sweat and your urine bright orange, too. There must be better choices for surreptitious sabotage.

Posted by: Hob on March 13, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

Has conspiracy nut always been this big of a moron? I'm thinking it's time for a tox-screen and a cranial CT scan.

Posted by: B on March 13, 2006 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

CN, you have severe comprehension problems if you think any "lefties" support Milosevic.

What brain-dead idiot you are.

Posted by: Dr. Morpheus on March 13, 2006 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

And you think Milosevic is the answer for peace and democracy? Stalin, Mao, Che, Idi Amin, Castro, Pol Pot, you lefties sure have an odd idea of who should be worshipped. Posted by: conspiracy nut.

The explanation for this, other than being off his medication, is that this is a fake CN, as no one that has posted here and likely to identify himself or herself as a liberal has in any way suggested anything other than that Milosevic was a monster who deserved to die.

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 1:07 PM | PERMALINK

no one that has posted here and likely to identify himself or herself as a liberal has in any way suggested anything other than that Milosevic was a monster who deserved to die.
Allow me to present a couple of examples of people here lamenting his passing:

The death is catastrophic for the restoration of democracy in Serbia
Posted by: JR on March 13, 2006 at 11:45 AM
If Milosovic becomes a martyr, that's BAD.
Posted by: Viserys on March 13, 2006 at 12:04 PM
Now, for what reason would his passing be lamented unless Milosevic was a potential savior for the Balkans?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 1:17 PM | PERMALINK

"Now, for what reason would his passing be lamented unless Milosevic was a potential savior for the Balkans?"
CN - your inability to view the world as other than "black and white" is typical of republicans!
wake up and smell the other colors of the world!

Posted by: Rick on March 13, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK
Now, for what reason would his passing be lamented unless Milosevic was a potential savior for the Balkans?

Because, whether or not he was "a potential savior", his death, particularly in circumstances which make foul play plausible, in the present circumstances itself has the potential to exacerbate current problems.

That's not at all the same as an implication of support. If I noted that, were George Bush to die in suspicious circumstances during the 2008 election campaign, it would exacerbate a number of existing problems in the US, that would not be an endorsement of George Bush as a potential savior of the US.

Even for you, CN, that argument was unusually moronic.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 13, 2006 at 1:34 PM | PERMALINK

Now, for what reason would his passing be lamented unless Milosevic was a potential savior for the Balkans? Posted by: conspiracy nut

Because, you dumb son of a bitch, it fuels the hatred and suspicion of the West and the rule of law amongst Serbian nationalists. No one else thought of him as a "savior" but them.

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 1:41 PM | PERMALINK

Milosivec was a disgusting piece of shit, and it's a travesty of justice that he did not meet his end on the end of a rope.

Pinochet too.

I don't know what's going to happen to Saddam. I hope he lives long enough to be executed.

And of course, I'm furious that Osama bin Laden isn't facing the execution he so richly deserves.

But that seems to be the way of things lately. These weasels all seem to get out of their just punishments, and the people they make suffer, continue to be made to suffer, and never see justice.

If you want peace, work for justice.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 13, 2006 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

in the present circumstances itself has the potential to exacerbate current problems.
The Serbs and Bosnians are currently killing each other about as fast as they can. How is this situation supposed to be exacerbated?

If I noted that, were George Bush to die in suspicious circumstances during the 2008 election campaign, it would exacerbate a number of existing problems in the US, that would not be an endorsement of George Bush as a potential savior of the US.
I'm afraid your analogy isn't up to the drill. The problems you think are to be exacerbated are exactly the problems Milosevic caused. Milosevic presided over a genocidal war. And you are claiming that his death is going to cause the very slaughter he willfully engaged in.

Your analogy is difficult to fix, but imagine the most heinous thing Bush has done in your mind. Now imagine me lamenting the death of Bush because it will exacerbate that heinous action.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

The Serbs and Bosnians are currently killing each other about as fast as they can. How is this situation supposed to be exacerbated?

Ah, I see the problem. Apparently conspiracy nut is typing this in 1994, when the Serbs and the Bosnians actually were killing each other, and, through a rift in the time-space continuum, it is now appearing on this blog in 2006.


Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK


I'm afraid your analogy isn't up to the drill.

I'm afraid it is.

The problems you think are to be exacerbated are exactly the problems Milosevic caused.

As they would be in the Bush situation. The problems exacerbated when a major figure in an extreme movement becomes, to that movement, a martyr are usually the same kind of problems that leader caused, or at least contributed to.

Milosevic presided over a genocidal war. And you are claiming that his death is going to cause the very slaughter he willfully engaged in.

Well, no, I'm not claiming it is going to cause anything; nor is the thing I am suggesting it makes more likely is "the very slaughter he willfully engaged in", but instead, slaughter of the same type. The "very slaughter he already engaged in" is past, and can neither be undone or redone.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 13, 2006 at 2:17 PM | PERMALINK

The Serbs and Bosnians are currently killing each other about as fast as they can. How is this situation supposed to be exacerbated?Posted by: conspiracy nut

Where? Some new "first shooter" for X-Box or Gameboy?

Wait a minute! Maybe we should be thanking CN, as he's apparently been successful in creating that time machine that he's been working on in his mother's basement (his father left years ago because he was just "too difficult a child to deal with"), and he's travelled back to 1997.

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 2:19 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan, great minds think alike?

Bought that Graham Chapman autobiography yet?

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

No, I haven't bought it yet, though it's up there on my wishlist. Though if I need a good laugh I can always read conspiracy nut's surreal and deluded comments....

Conspiracy Nut: yesterday's current events -- brought to you today!

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

Jeff II
I do the easy work first.

Serbia-Montenegro - Travel Warning
August 6, 1999
The Department of State warns U.S. citizens against travel to Serbia- Montenegro. Although the conflict between members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and Serbian forces has concluded, Serbian military and security forces remain highly mobilized. Mass protests against the federal and Serbian governments have been taking place throughout Serbia.

cmdicely
Well, no, I'm not claiming it is going to cause anything; nor is the thing I am suggesting it makes more likely is "the very slaughter he willfully engaged in", but instead, slaughter of the same type.
And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? You can categorize types of human slaughter all day long; but Milosevic slaughtered. And it is nonsense to lament the passing of a known killer because it might cause some killing.

Let me help you out again with your analogy. If I were to lament the death of Bush because it might cause the US to enter into preemptive war with Iraq, would I appear sane to you?

(Allow me to reword, would I appear more sane than you believe me to be now?)

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 2:37 PM | PERMALINK

Serbia-Montenegro - Travel Warning
August 6, 1999

Hmmm...August 6, 1999

March 13, 2006.

Nope, no difference there! Beyond, of course, about six and a half years. Yes indeed, the world was exactly the same in August 1999 as it is today.


Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 2:45 PM | PERMALINK
You can categorize types of human slaughter all day long; but Milosevic slaughtered.

Yes, Milosevic slaughtered. What does that have to do with the effects of his death at this particular time in the particular circumstances in which it occurred?

And it is nonsense to lament the passing of a known killer because it might cause some killing.

I disagree. The who died because of what Milosevic did in the past are dead. It is not nonsense to fear for those who are more likely to die prematurely with the timing and circumstances of a killers death, even if one has no regret at all for the fact of that death.

Let me help you out again with your analogy. If I were to lament the death of Bush because it might cause the US to enter into preemptive war with Iraq, would I appear sane to you?

Well, if there was a movement for the US to launch a "Shock and Awe" attack against the regime it had installed in Iraq, and if Bush's death was, in fact, likely to add fuel to that fire and make more likely the deaths of thousands of innocents, you would certainly not appear insane, at least not on account of that belief.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 13, 2006 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

And it is nonsense to lament the passing of a known killer because it might cause some killing.

Except of course that no one is lamenting his passing, they are lamenting that by offing himself he was able to cheat the due judgment of a court and will now never be convicted and held accountable for his crimes.

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 2:51 PM | PERMALINK

(Allow me to reword, would I appear more sane than you believe me to be now?) Posted by: conspiracy nut

Nope. You're still a fucking idiot. Internal unrest in S-M (S&M?) and border troubles with Kosovo do not equal Serbs and Bosnians fighting one another. Furthermore, there are no current travel warnings for the entire region.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1014.html

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 2:54 PM | PERMALINK

Stalin, Mao, Che, Idi Amin, Castro, Pol Pot, you lefties sure have an odd idea of who should be worshipped.

Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek, Alfredo Stroessner, Efrain Rios Montt, Syngman Rhee, Anastasio Somoza, Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier, Ferdinand Marcos, the apartheid government of South Africa, Noriega, Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, Islam Karimov, the House of Saud, Pervez Musharraf, you righties sure have an odd idea of who should be worshipped.

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 3:01 PM | PERMALINK

Stafan, don't you mean Adolf Hilter and his National Bocialists?

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 3:03 PM | PERMALINK

Nope. You're still a fucking idiot. Internal unrest in S-M (S&M?) and border troubles with Kosovo do not equal Serbs and Bosnians fighting one another. Furthermore, there are no current travel warnings for the entire region.

He's off his rocker, and even more wild-eyed and deluded than usual, if he thinks he can pass off this crazy theory that a travel advisory from August 1999, a few months after US and NATO forces were fighting the Serbs in Kosovo, is any kind of proof that Bosnians and Serbs are "killing each other as fast as they can" in March 2006.

Yeah, like an August 1939 State Department advisory not to travel to Poland would be proof that the Nazis and Polish were "killing each other as fast as they can" in March 1946.

Hilarious!

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 3:08 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan
Nope, no difference there! Beyond, of course, about six and a half years.
Once again, I'll do the easy work first. The State Department updates their warnings. Since there has been no update, then the State Dept is indeed telling us that there is no difference.

Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini...
Make a deal with you, you show me one picture of Republicans protesting with posters to Hitler, Mussolini, et al; and I'll show you 10 pictures of Democrats protesting with posters to Che, Stalin, et al.

And then I'll send a note of thanks to my fellow wingers that brave the moonbat protests to take those pictures.

cmdicely
The who died because of what Milosevic did in the past are dead.
People as sunk cost. Cold blooded; accurate, but cold blooded. I yeild to your argument.

But I still deny your continuing bad analogy.
Well, if there was a movement for the US to launch a "Shock and Awe" attack against the regime it had installed in Iraq...
Wrong, the "Shock and Awe" attack would have already occurred, and I would be lamenting the death of Bush because because it might cause another "Shock and Awe" attack to occur.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 3:27 PM | PERMALINK

"Once again, I'll do the easy work first. The State Department updates their warnings. Since there has been no update, then the State Dept is indeed telling us that there is no difference."

So, you're actually saying there is still a bloodbath in the Balkans... but that's simply not true. Your ignorance is astounding.

Posted by: mymble on March 13, 2006 at 3:42 PM | PERMALINK

"Once again, I'll do the easy work first. The State Department updates their warnings. Since there has been no update, then the State Dept is indeed telling us that there is no difference."

So, you're actually saying there is still a bloodbath in the Balkans... but that's simply not true. Your ignorance is astounding.
Posted by: mymble

Amazing, isn't it? I provided the URL to State's page for the region, and he either just ignored it or is too pig-headed to admit he's just making shit up. Or he could be cranky because a man responsible for the death of thousands of Muslims has left our world.

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

So, you're actually saying there is still a bloodbath in the Balkans... but that's simply not true. Your ignorance is astounding.

Don't forget, mymble, that conspiracy nut also believes that the Republican Party is a member of an international socialist conspiracy. His delusions are kind of cute, in a sad, crazy sort of way.

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 3:54 PM | PERMALINK

Reading comprehension isn't at a consistently high level around here, is it?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 3:54 PM | PERMALINK

I'm serious about the CT scan Mr. Nut. You'd best seek help while you can still walk straight and remember what that damn emergency number is that you have to dial when you need an ambulance.

I surrender to your mastery of anachronistic hypothetical analogies and your clever equating of wacked protestors holding stupid signs and GOP politicians actively supporting foreign despots. Milosovic was an excellent choice for making this point considering the strong position of many GOP congressmen concerning him during the late 1990's.

-----------
Thanks Ogged. This beats posts about baking pie for liberal evangalist christian NBA players. Seriously. Kevin couldn't have done a better job at pulling Mr. Nut out of the ether. Very entertaining.

Posted by: B on March 13, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

and GOP politicians actively supporting foreign despots
The GOP supported Hilter, Mussolini and Hussein? Damn, and I thought we kicked their ass.

Guess I'll head on back to my history books now for a little brushing up...

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINK

Has conspiracy nut always been this big of a moron?

At least.

Posted by: Ace Franze on March 13, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

The GOP was for Hitler, Mussolini and Hussein before they were against them :)

As a matter of historical record.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 13, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

Bob
Thanks, you've saved me much catch up reading. I guess our moral for today is that Republicans learn from their mistakes.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Nut: Glad to hear your going to try reading history books.

I'd suggest starting with Republican isolationist leaders of the late 1930's, i.e. Dewey, Taft, and Vandenberg. You could then go on read about Hussein's early history with the CIA, US support of Hussein during the Iran Iraq war, and US ambivalence during the 1991 crack down against the kurds and Shiites.

Posted by: B on March 13, 2006 at 4:34 PM | PERMALINK

What, B?
As opposed to the isolationist Democratic leaders of today? Like I said, at least us Republicans learn from our mistakes.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINK

What's taking those black helicopters so long?

Posted by: toast on March 13, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINK

They're government helicopters. Nothing works right in government.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

The GOP was for Hitler, Mussolini and Hussein before they were against them :)

As a matter of historical record. Posted by: rmck1

Was this before or after the 1996 Department of State travel advisory that no longer applies?

I think Senators Robert Taft (the Elder), Claude Pepper, and Henry Cabott Lodge, Jr. were wanting to take a "junket" (read: golf trip) to the Dalmatian Coast. See, they weren't assured that the Croats were sufficiently disposed towards the Nazis, so they were a bit concerned with their safety. It just got too complicated, so they just spent a week drunk with hookers at Claude's CC down on the Gulf.

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 4:42 PM | PERMALINK

And let's not forget the Republican Party's support of Milosevic and his genocide of the Kosovars during the Kosovo war in 1999, and how they trashed American soldiers in the field and blamed America first:

"President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be
away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy." -Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it." -Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy." -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy." -Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area." -Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo." -Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years" -Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"I'm on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so you can trust me and believe me when I say we're running out of cruise missles. I can't tell you exactly how many we have left, for security reasons, but we're almost out of cruise missiles."
-Senator Inhofe (R-OK )

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarifiedrules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today" -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"I don't know that Milosevic will ever raise a white flag" -Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." -Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem." -Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

"The two powers that have ICBMs that can reach the United States are Russia and China. Here we go in. We're taking on not just Milosevic. We can't just say, 'that little guy, we can whip him.' We have these two other powers that have missiles that can reach us, and we have zero defense thanks to this president." -Senator James Inhofe (R-OK)

"You can support the troops but not the president"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"My job as majority leader is be supportive of our troops, try to have input as decisions are made and to look at those decisions after they're made ... not to march in lock step with everything the president decides to do."
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

For us to call this a victory and to commend the President of the United States as the Commander in Chief showing great leadership in Operation Allied Force is a farce" -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly." -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Once the bombing commenced, I think then Milosevic unleashed his forces, and then that's when the slaughtering and the massive ethnic cleansing really started" -Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"Clinton's bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode" -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country" -Pat Buchanan (R)

"These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark ...who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton." -Michael Savage

"This has been an unmitigated disaster ... Ask the Chinese embassy. Ask all the people in Belgrade that we've killed. Ask the refugees that we've killed. Ask the people in nursing homes. Ask the people in hospitals." -Representative Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"It is a remarkable spectacle to see the Clinton Administration and NATO taking over from the Soviet Union the role of sponsoring "wars of national liberation." -Representative Helen Chenoweth (R-ID)

"America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country" -Pat Buchanan (R )

"By the order to launch air strikes against Serbia, NATO and President Clinton have entered uncharted territory in mankind's history. Not even Hitler's grab of the Sudetenland in the 1930s, which eventually led to WW II, ranks as a comparable travesty. For, there are no American interests whatsoever that the NATO bombing will
either help, or protect; only needless risks to which it exposes the American soldiers and assets, not to mention the victims on the ground in Serbia." -Bob Djurdjevic, founder of Truth in Media

Posted by: Stefan on March 13, 2006 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINK

Damn Stefan, don't ya love politics? Pots and kettles.

You must have really liked that Buchanan quote since you used it twice.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 13, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

JR writes, The death is catastrophic for the restoration of democracy in Serbia, where the majority will certainly conclude that he was murdered, thus inflaming the paranoid rage that Milosevic himself so expertly exploited.

That's very likely true, except for the part about 'restoration' of democracy in Serbia. Serbia has NEVER been democratic. It's not a democracy today in any sense of the word; it's a barely controlled thugocracy with more adept thugs.

What kind of security do they have there in the Hague? This is the second death of a Serb war criminal in as many weeks. How did Milosevic obtain the antibiotic? Or if he didn't obtain it, who was poisoning him with it?

I will refrain from pointing out that this wouldn't have happened at Gitmo. Unfortunately, Euro prisons tend to be a little porous (a fair number of American state pens are equally porous for drugs, etc). I suspect Slobo was manipulating the system, but I doubt we'll ever know.

As to why Slobo wasn't moved to another cell, well, he wasn't in a cell per se, but a suite. It included a small kitchenette, exercise area, meeting room for him and his lawyers, and a sleeping area. This was not a 'super-max' prison by any means, so it wouldn't be hard to imagine that Slobo was getting goodies he shouldn't have.

Posted by: Steve White on March 13, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Arguing with conspiracy nut is a lot like explaining the theory of evolution to a chipmunk.

Posted by: toast on March 13, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

Arguing with conspiracy nut is a lot like explaining the theory of evolution to a chipmunk.
Posted by: toast

Or tyring to explain it to a fnudie.

"No. Really. This triceratops didn't die just 6,000 years ago. No. Fred Flintstone was just a cartoon character, and he didn't really have a pet dinosaur named Dino and a saber toothed cat. No. I don't image that Fred knew Adam."

Posted by: Jeff II on March 13, 2006 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK

Heck, at least in Abu Ghaib they didn't poison the prisoners. Just dogs and beatings for the most part.

Posted by: Mca on March 13, 2006 at 10:14 PM | PERMALINK

Justice delayed is justice denied. The incompetence of the International Criminal Court in allowing this tinpot dictator to gum up the works has now reached its conclusion.

He should have gotten a fair trial in the morning and a stretched neck in the afternoon.

Posted by: Blue on March 14, 2006 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK
The incompetence of the International Criminal Court in allowing this tinpot dictator to gum up the works has now reached its conclusion.

The ICC had nothing to do with Milosevic.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 14, 2006 at 7:05 PM | PERMALINK

Milosevic presided over a genocidal war.

So did Tudjman and Izetbegovic. The main difference is what side the Pentagon and White House decided they would support.

Posted by: VN on March 15, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

Go Craigie! I back you up 100%! ^^

Posted by: Dashi Tsukiame on March 15, 2006 at 6:59 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan your quote of Buchanan is incredibly ironic: "America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo's capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country" -Pat Buchanan (R)

I can't stand Buchanan but Milosevic didn't kill a fraction as many people as Saddam did during the Clinton administration -- which was happy to starve babies in Iraq as its policy for containing Saddam.

What we got with the Balkans was injecting ourselves into civil wars, blaming one side and probably creating a future problem much worse. Bosnia for example became a terrorist haven 10 years ago.

Posted by: David on March 15, 2006 at 8:01 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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