Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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March 20, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

THE NEW AL GORE....Former Washington Monthly intern Ezra Klein is on the cover of the American Prospect this month with a look at the New Al Gore:

Since his loss, Gore has undergone a resurrection of sorts, shrugging off the consultants and the caution that hampered him during the campaign and aided by new distribution technologies evolving into perhaps the most articulate, animated, and forceful critic of the Bush administration. And now, with Democrats taking a fresh look at a man they thought they knew and speculation mounting around his ambitions in 2008, it seems that the man much mocked for inventing the Internet is in fact using the direct communication it enables to reinvent himself.

Is Gore taking on the mainstream media? Dedicating himself to fighting global warming? Gearing up to run for president again?

Or is it all three? Read the whole thing and decide for yourself. Personally, I always liked the old Al Gore, but I like the new one too and I probably like him more than any of the other obvious 2008 presidential candidates. I'll bet I'm not alone.

Kevin Drum 3:35 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (312)

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Comments

He won't run for President. So you'll get Hillary as the nominee, and McCain will crush her.
Four More Wars!

Posted by: Freedom Phukher on March 20, 2006 at 3:36 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, that's rdw's line, Freedom Phukher!

I smell the foul odor of plagarism.

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 20, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

Please, please, please, please, pleeeeeeeeeease...
--
HRlaughed

Posted by: HRlaughed on March 20, 2006 at 3:39 PM | PERMALINK

I have seen Al Gore's global warming lecture. If Gore had been that loose and funny in 2000, he would be president now. I think he should run in 2008, even if it is just as the Democratic equivalent of Alan Keyes.

Posted by: troglodyte on March 20, 2006 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

And Kevin, you are so right in the previous note -- Republican led "hearings" are definitely the answer to the NSA hoo-ha!

Posted by: Freedom Phukher on March 20, 2006 at 3:40 PM | PERMALINK

Celebrity deathmatch: Gore versus Hillary
Watch them battle over the new the Clinton Dynasty

Posted by: Jon Karak on March 20, 2006 at 3:43 PM | PERMALINK

Cindy Sheehan/Al Gore 08

Posted by: Al on March 20, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

If he can shed the stiff image, what's not to like about Al Gore? He's smart, hard working, knowledgeable about all the things he should be, reasoned, moderate. Hey, unlike the Current Occupant, he can read too.

I put a "Re-Elect Gore 2008" bumper sticker on my car a couple of weeks ago. My fantasy ticket is Gore and a different Jewish guy (i.e. the one from Wisconsin).

Posted by: J Bean on March 20, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, if John Kerry rediscovers his sense of humor like Gore has, he should go shake hands in Iowa and New Hampshire, too. Neither Gore nor Kerry would win, but voters would be reminded of the contrast they make with the doofus that got elected.

Posted by: troglodyte on March 20, 2006 at 3:44 PM | PERMALINK

I always liked the old Al Gore
I always liked the old Al Gore, too. But the new one promises to be just as much fun.

Do you think he'll be able to carry his home state this time?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

And the media will *love* the Nixon 1960->1968 angle....

Posted by: zmulls on March 20, 2006 at 3:45 PM | PERMALINK

Well, lookie here:

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002
Now there's an idea I can get behind!

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK

Me too, CN. Think how much better off we'd be today if folks like you had done the smart thing and voted for Gore.

Posted by: Boronx on March 20, 2006 at 3:51 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder if Feingold would pull a Eugene McCarthy, if he doesn't get the nomination he already considers his due?

Posted by: konopelli on March 20, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

I attended Gore's speech on wiretapping in DAR Constitution Hall and he was very effective. I came away impressed. Then again, I always liked him, too.

Posted by: Mark on March 20, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

Gore would be President today if he had not picked Lieberman.

Posted by: Mimir on March 20, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINK

J Bean: My fantasy ticket is Gore and a different Jewish guy (i.e. the one from Wisconsin).

Not to over generalize, but I have a high opinion of Jewish Senators from Wisconsin. Put his name first.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 3:55 PM | PERMALINK

zmulls: But does Gore have a secret plan to get us out of Iraq?

Posted by: S Ra on March 20, 2006 at 3:55 PM | PERMALINK

No kidding, Mimir. I wonder if there's a good history about how that choice happened.

Posted by: Boronx on March 20, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

I read his book and then voted for him. I was tired of seeing guys dumber than me in the White House. Besides, he's got a great motto: I Beat Them Before, I Can Beat Them Again.

Posted by: buddy66 on March 20, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Gore is a hero of mine. That's something I get to say about very, very few politicians.

Posted by: jm on March 20, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

Hey lookie CN is comming around,Welcome to the Majority!!

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 3:57 PM | PERMALINK

S Ra: But does Gore have a secret plan to get us out of Iraq?

The same way we got out of Vietnam - on planes.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 3:58 PM | PERMALINK

Hey lookie CN is comming around
I don't think so, as the man of the hour said

"A zebra does not change its spots." - Al Gore 1992.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry, but the same "disintermediated" communication system he hopes to use has been watching him for five years now, and I'm afraid it isn't going to be as simple as "remember him in 2000? Well, look at him now!"

Gore has a lot to live down, and a lot of recent baggage that will not appeal to moderates as much as it might appeal to Moveon.org types. It's going to take more than a puff piece like this to clean him up for another run as a "New, New Democrat."

Posted by: tbrosz on March 20, 2006 at 4:01 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin Drum likes Gore "more than any of the other obvious 2008 presidential candidates"? He can't possibly like him more than Republicans, who would love to see him run again in 2008. (As for "Gore would be president today if he had not picked Lieberman," Gore would be president today if it were not for 1) the U.S. Supreme Court, 2) Bill Clinton, for handing W the *only* issue he had in 2000: "restoring dignity to the White House". We all know what a great job he's done at that.)

Posted by: Gerald Scorse on March 20, 2006 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz:

Go back to the Democratic Strategy thread, read my rebuttal to your Riverbend calumny and cry your eyes out :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

Gore has issued a Sherman-like statement regarding his presidential ambitions.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 20, 2006 at 4:05 PM | PERMALINK

Gore better make his announcement early enough that the Buddhist nuns have time to fire up their donation pipeline from the Red Chinese.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:06 PM | PERMALINK


MIRMIR: Gore would be President today if he had not picked Lieberman.

Yes, this was his biggest blunder. But it's not what prevented him from being president. The liars, thieves and killers who are now in charge are what prevented him from taking the office he won.


Posted by: jayarbee on March 20, 2006 at 4:08 PM | PERMALINK

I wish everyone would read the recent FSU study on the election in Florida.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 20, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin Drum likes Gore "more than any of the other obvious 2008 presidential candidates"? He can't possibly like him more than Republicans, who would love to see him run again in 2008. (As for "Gore would be president today if he had not picked Lieberman," Gore would be president today if it were not for 1) the U.S. Supreme Court, 2) Bill Clinton, for handing W the *only* issue he had in 2000: "restoring dignity to the White House". We all know what a great job he's done at that.)

Posted by: Gerald Scorse on March 20, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

If Gore wants another go-round, he's going to have to have had a transformation in the truest sense of the word. Everything from his speaking style to his strategy against attacks.

It's been heartening to hear him speak out against the war and global warming. But I'm wondering just how much the ol' leopard *can* truly change those spots ...

Although the thought of a Gore/Clinton ticket is kind of, ummm, delicious in its own perverse way :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:10 PM | PERMALINK

If I had a nickel for every time...

Dem blogger: Let's nominate X for president in 2008!

GOP troll, waking up from three-beer-lunch stupor: Go right ahead! That's a Republican wet dream!

I almost wish we'd nominate Jesus Christ, just to hear the trolletariat fall all over itself denouncing him as a vile loser. Extra points for implications about excessive love of neighbors.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:10 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: Now there's an idea I can get behind!

Too bad that was before the UN inspections and further evidence procured by the Bush administration showing Saddam was toothless.

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 20, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

Nashvillian here who has always been a big Gore fan. He's very popular even among local Republicans, although it's hard for Nashville & Memphis alone to carry the rest of the state-- east TN is very right-wing, and the rural areas might as well be Mississippi.

Posted by: latts on March 20, 2006 at 4:12 PM | PERMALINK

Mimir, I completely agree with you.

Posted by: theorajones on March 20, 2006 at 4:14 PM | PERMALINK

Any reasonable candidate but Hillary. I think she is about the only Democrat sure to lose. Her negatives are just too high.

Posted by: Ron Byers on March 20, 2006 at 4:16 PM | PERMALINK

He's already got a great slogan:

Re-elect Gore in 2008!

Posted by: RT on March 20, 2006 at 4:16 PM | PERMALINK

Oh dear God.

Not the "Al Gore is reinventing himself...again" story again.

The next sound you hear will be Somerby's head bursting.

Posted by: Quaker in a Basement on March 20, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

Ron Byers: Her negatives are just too high.

Yeah, they're about the same as Reagan's in 1980, aren't they?

High negatives aren't always a barrier to election, although they might well be in this case. I don't want her, either, but I'm more worried about her ability to govern than her ability to be elected.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

Gerald,

Bill Clinton's "dignity" issue was the reason Gore picked Lieberman as his running mate. Remember, Holy Joe was called "the conscience of the Senate" for his self-righteousness during the impeachment.

Posted by: pickabone on March 20, 2006 at 4:20 PM | PERMALINK

BTW, conspiracy nut, you're lying again by pretending that the quote, taken out of context as is your usual modus operandi, Gore was supporting invasion of Iraq.

Far from it, he was critical of Bush's plans and policy.

Which of course is why you deliberately left out context such as this statement following the passage you quote:

"I believe, however, that such a choice [between law and survival] is not presented in the case of Iraq."

Damn, you've been caught lying again.

How . . . unrefreshing!

Posted by: Advocate for God on March 20, 2006 at 4:20 PM | PERMALINK

Shortstop, that was funny. And apt.

Jeffrey Davis, how about some links for your references?

Posted by: erica on March 20, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: Gore better make his announcement early enough that the Buddhist nuns have time to fire up their donation pipeline from the Red Chinese.

You're behind the times. The Red Chinese are already using all their money to fund Bush's deficits.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINK

pickabone: Remember, Holy Joe was called "the conscience of the Senate" for his self-righteousness during the impeachment.

How well I remember it. And now he runs around trying to convince folks that we should make illegal acts legal if the president commits them. A fine vessel of ethics, isn't he?

"But he has a 75 rating from the ADA! We goppers wouldn't vote for him if hell froze over, but we like telling credulous Dems he's the kind of guy they should be putting up!"

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

Gore was railroaded out of his presidency. Take it back, I say. I'd love to see him make another run.

Gotta agree with comments re: holy Joe. I wasn't crazy about Lieberman either, but you have to remember the context in which he was picked. Clinton had been impeached for the Monica business, and Gore wanted someone squeaky clean, at least sexaully.

Posted by: ExBrit on March 20, 2006 at 4:24 PM | PERMALINK

AFG: Damn, you've been caught lying again.

How . . . unrefreshing!

Hee!

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINK

But hey, I'm willing to give a guy like Wooden Al a shot; what a grasp of the world:

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe." - Al Gore
And alex, your inability to understand US Treasury Bonds is not my problem.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:26 PM | PERMALINK

"Gore better make his announcement early enough that the Buddhist nuns have time to fire up their donation pipeline from the Red Chinese."

You are so fucking boring.

Remember that "Marketeer" guy? He was fun.

Posted by: tron on March 20, 2006 at 4:27 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: alex, your inability to understand US Treasury Bonds is not my problem

You mean they're free? Heck, I thought the Red Chinese had to pay for them. My bad.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

And we all know how hard it can be sometimes to put food on your family :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:29 PM | PERMALINK

tron: You are so fucking boring.

Remember that "Marketeer" guy? He was fun.

Marketeer was fun. Hubris was the greatest. PB Almeida is always interesting to read. Even Norman's over-the-topness was highly edifying. Guess it's not about loving our echo chamber. Guess it's about conspiracy nut's extreme personal limitations.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

And how important it is to have a world where the human being and the fish can coexist.

Are you misunderestimating me, c-nut?

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

Yep, I'm studying up on Al, and he's a man that knows where it's at:

"For NASA, space is still a high priority." - Al Gore
And, he knows where we need to go:
"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system." - Al Gore
And carrying a firm grasp of history with him:
"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century." - Al Gore

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

You do realize, of course, that many of our imports still come from overseas.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

You lying sack o' shit -- the Holocaust quote's from Dan Quayle.

There's nothing subliminible about making the pie higher.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:35 PM | PERMALINK

I almost wish we'd nominate Jesus Christ, just to hear the trolletariat fall all over itself denouncing him as a vile loser. Extra points for implications about excessive love of neighbors.

Cue sinister music:

Announcer's Voice: Jesus claims to be the Son of God. But what's Jesus really hiding?

The Apostle Fred: I was with Jesus at Lake Galilee, and I can tell you those loaves and fishes didn't feed a multitude. Twenty people, tops. The rest was all spin.

Announcer: Jesus claims to be the Prince of Peace. But what's Jesus really hiding?

The Apostle Herbert: One time, Jesus got like really mad at me, and punched me right in the face. And one other time I saw Him beat up these moneylenders, who were really just small-business entrepreneurs. It made me ask, is this guy I'm following really some kind of Communist?

Announcer: Jesus wants you to love your neighbor as yourself. But just how much does He want to love you?

The Apostle Barney: Jesus...did some things with me I'm not proud of. Things I haven't told anyone else about before. He told me that verily, he would come unto me and then he...then he...then he did! [breaks down weeping]

Announcer: Brought to you by Apostolic Veterans for Truth.

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINK

After I saw Gore's wonderful global warming speech, the "New Al Gore" was exactly the phrase that came to mind. It's amazing what 5 years away from Washington and outside the company of political consultants will do for you.

Looking ahead to '08, if the alternative is Hillary, isn't electability beside the point? Plus, having Katherine Harris back in the headlines can only help remind voters that Gore already has a track record of having won a presidential election.

Posted by: Beale on March 20, 2006 at 4:37 PM | PERMALINK

The new Al Gore is insane.

It's hard to believe this nutjob used to be Vice President of the United States.

Posted by: FrequencyKenneth on March 20, 2006 at 4:38 PM | PERMALINK


CONSPIRACY NUT: "The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

Hey, c nut, why would you paste a Dan Quayle quote here and attribute it to Al Gore?


Posted by: jayarbee on March 20, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK

I love the new Al Gore. His MLK Day speech was absolutely electrifying. If he keeps that up and runs for Pres in 2008, I will be begging to volunteer for his campaign.

Posted by: merkmal on March 20, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK

That lying sack of shit Otto, aka conspiracy nut, is trying to pass off Dan Quayle quote as Al Gore quotes. The "space is still a high priority" and "enter the solar system quotes" were said by Dan Quayle.

See http://www.snopes.com/quotes/candidate.asp

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 4:39 PM | PERMALINK

Are you misunderestimating me, c-nut?
Just keep in mind, Bob, when talking about fish:

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." - Al Gore

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:40 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh dear God.

Not the "Al Gore is reinventing himself...again" story again.

The next sound you hear will be Somerby's head bursting."

So funny. And you too shortstop.

Posted by: es on March 20, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

Cnut. Considering the Nin. Com. Poop you fully support now soiling the White House, I think you're strategery of trying to pull up lame quotes supposedly attributed to Gore is a real loser.

Posted by: ckelly on March 20, 2006 at 4:42 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan:

Nice job! You win a set of Virgotron chastity belts with ultra-plush straps and Clitrilizer(TM) for the whole family!

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:42 PM | PERMALINK

I actually read "Earth in the Balance."

Page 325 is where Gore talks about abolishing the internal combustion engine.

Posted by: MountainDan on March 20, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

RT, you beat me to it.

Posted by: C.J.Colucci on March 20, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, c nut, why would you paste a Dan Quayle quote here and attribute it to Al Gore?
That would be because the quote page I've been mining had it attributed to Wooden Al. On further research, however, I see that it was improperly attributed.

I sincerely apologize, it is not my intent to provide any stoopid quotes not actually from the man of the hour himself.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut, you're too dumb to be able to vote, even if it were legal for you to do so here. From Snopes:

Dan Quayle has certainly made more than his share of misstatements, and most of the ones on the following list are actual Quayle quotes (although versions of this list with all the quotes mischievously attributed to Vice-President Al Gore and Texas governor George W. Bush also circulate around the Internet). Nearly all of these quotes are reasonable statements that came out garbled when uttered by a poor public speaker, though it's not hard to tell in most cases what Quayle really meant to say...

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

"Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts."

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit . . . Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared.'"
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

"The future will be better tomorrow."

"We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican."

"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."

"When I have been asked during these last weeks who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame."

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." -

Another lie. Not a quote by Al Gore, but a quote from Mad Magazine in 1991: "comments now widely attributed to the former Vice-President that were actually coined by humor writers as examples of the sort of things he might say."

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/candidate.asp

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

Once again, YOU ARE A LYING SACK OF SHIT.

That was either Reagan, Quayle or Bush. It certainly wasn't Gore.

Cite your sources or you'll cause me to become very cross.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, did everybody know Al Gore took the initiative in creating the internet??

Posted by: BigRiver on March 20, 2006 at 4:45 PM | PERMALINK

"Do you think he'll be able to carry his home state this time?"

Even Mondale carried his own state.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 4:46 PM | PERMALINK

You gotta love Quayle.

Hell, reading that list, they attributed about half of those quotes to Gore. Despicable way to run a website.

Damn, I'm gonna have to go back to picking on Bore for the old, worn out stuff: inventing the internet, inspiring Love Story, and failing to carry his home state.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINK

Ah, nice job, everyone, on simultaneously busting conspiracy nut.

So everyone else here, besides now possessing Virgotron chastity belts and Clitralizers (get that thing away from me!) is smart enough to vote. Here's five bucks, nut. Watch my car while I'm in the polling place.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

Conspiracy Nut...Accurate As Always

Posted by: ckelly on March 20, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

Isn't the Clitrilizer(TM) a Halliburton product? I hear they sell tons in northern Nigeria and lower Mississippi.

Posted by: S Ra on March 20, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

I am hoping the Dems run Sheehan/Obama in '08!

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 4:49 PM | PERMALINK

Shows you the accuracy of Otto's "research" materials.

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 4:50 PM | PERMALINK

No worries Bob, I'll never trust another Gore quote again. Since you asked, however, here is the offending website. I will only remind you that denial-of-service attacks are not a legal response to this heinous outrage.

I cannot have fun with Wooden Al when I am provided falsified information like this.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

Hell, reading that list, they attributed about half of those quotes to Gore. Despicable way to run a website.

Well, not surprising, though. They cater to people with undeveloped research and analysis skills. Know any of those?

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sure Algore 5.0 will be much more effective than Algore 4.0, Algore 3.0, and Algore 2.0.

Posted by: Paddy Whack on March 20, 2006 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK

The overthetop comments by the trolls have convinced me: they're excrementally scared Gore's going to run in 2008.

Posted by: ExBrit on March 20, 2006 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK

Damn, I'm gonna have to go back to picking on Bore for the old, worn out stuff: inventing the internet, inspiring Love Story, and failing to carry his home state.

And we'll continue picking on you, CNut, for your old, worn out talking points, inaccuracies, mendacity, dishonesty and outright lying.

Posted by: ckelly on March 20, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

I ready Earth in Balance when I was in High School. That was 26 years ago.

It's simply amazing me to me hideuous spew Republicans vomit out on cue when it comes to Al Gore. Liar, stiff, not funny.... Note how there's nothing there on any policy. Nothing--it's always about him.

Disgusting creeps--Al Gore never would have stuck us in Iraq or hocked us into incredible debt. 9/11 would likely have never happened, since he wouldn't have been drunk on a "ranch" in Texas getting briefed that Bin Laden was determined to attack in the US--and then drank some more.

This is why I will hate fucking Republicans forever--slimy disgusting turds. They endlessly smeared a good man as a liar while voting for the worst felon liar I have ever seen. They lost but had to steal it anyway, all for the felon idiot Bush.

They don't even care how wrong and stupid they are. Ha ha ha, Al Lost, it's perfectly okay to lose the country for it. Idiots, offensive stupid assholes.

How happy they must be. In debt for eternity, losing a war, spit upon by the entire world, the bill of right trashed, representatiuve, multi-branch government chucked, Bush is king now.

God--they just don't care. Terrible Americans, just terrible.

Posted by: paradox on March 20, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

Al Gore and the Internet
By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf

"Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development."

"No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time."

"No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large."

But then, the sort of stooges who titter at "I took the initiative in creating the Internet" have no idea who Vint Cerf or Robert Khan are.

Posted by: S Ra on March 20, 2006 at 4:54 PM | PERMALINK

Well look, the old Al Gore was the same as the new, he just dispensed with the filters.

If you mean the "Al Gore" that the media portrayed in the 2000 campaign, then that is one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen you write on this blog.

Posted by: MNPundit on March 20, 2006 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINK

Just out of curiosity, does everyone realize that there is more than one Jewish Senator from Wisconsin? I know we all know who we're talking about, but we ought to make sure we don't give off a "Draft Kohl" vibe here.

And let me add my voice to the chorus who always liked Al Gore, even the 2000 rendition, but who likewise thought his campaign was dreadful. Go watch The War Room; the speech Gore gives in that is incredibly animated and funny. It should have been that guy on the head of the ticket in 2000, and it should have been ... oh, say, anyone but Lieberman, even politics aside, standing next to him. Talk about boring!

Posted by: jhupp on March 20, 2006 at 4:57 PM | PERMALINK

I am hoping the Dems run Sheehan/Obama in '08!

And we're hoping your run your pantyhose, like I saw you do last night on Ocean Drive.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, instead of further succumbing to cn's "Me, me, me!" tactics (that boy's mother clearly did not love him):

I love Al Gore as new attack dog of the left. Doesn't mean I think he should run for president. I don't understand this mentality that says there's no political job worth having other than the presidency. I know, I know, he earned it and he was robbed, and it's hard to go back to the second or third tier. But really, what's so dishonorable about being an elder statesman, particularly one who's finally figured out how to kick ass?

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:57 PM | PERMALINK

If Al Gore runs again in 2008, Rush Limbaugh will be the happiest man in the world.

Posted by: Paddy Whack on March 20, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

If Al Gore runs again in 2008, Rush Limbaugh will be the happiest man in the world.

The nickels are piling up...

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

Big River. He did. Remember the right all goofy about the Information super highway,You all laughed so hard.Today we know it as the Internet.Thank you Al Gore.

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

S Ra
Thanks, I love people defending Gore for saying that. Just something for you to chew on, the internet was born in 1961, Gore was elected in 1976.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

If Al Gore runs again in 2008, Rush Limbaugh will be the happiest man in the world.

High doses of Oxycontin have already made Rush Limbaugh the happiest man in the world.

The ACLU running to his defense and helping keep his fat ass out of jail isn't hurting either.

Posted by: Windhorse on March 20, 2006 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINK


One day, when the police state is tight as a drum, when history and science are written only by christo-fascists, all of Bush's famously stupid utterances (fool me twice--can't get fooled again; food on their families; good docs practice their love), will be attributed to Bill Clinton.


Posted by: jayarbee on March 20, 2006 at 5:03 PM | PERMALINK

We want to make the (Pie Higher) G.W.Bush.

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 5:05 PM | PERMALINK

In Arizona, we make IUD's out of scorpions.

Posted by: Wonderful Russ on March 20, 2006 at 5:05 PM | PERMALINK

I cannot have fun with Wooden Al when I am provided falsified information like this.

Why not, c.n.? You haven't shirked from dishonesty in the past. Indeed, dishonesty is all you've got ("inventing the internet").

Dishonesty and a riduiculous obsession with Communism.

Dishonesty, a ridiculous obsession with Communism, and a crackpot political philosophy.

Dishonesty, a ridiculous obsession with Communism, a crackpot political philosophy, and ... oh, never mind, you get the idea.

Just remember, c.n., as much as you gloat about the Democrats losing elections, no one even runs on your lnatic notions. You're batting zero, pal.

Posted by: Gregory on March 20, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINK

Now that's a good laugh CN you are a turd.

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINK

Just something for you to chew on, the internet was born in 1961, Gore was elected in 1976.

...and the Internet emerged as a nationwide phenomenon, not just an obscure realm of military sites and academia...why, yes! After Gore boosted it as a Senator.

Thank you, Senator Gore!

Posted by: Gregory on March 20, 2006 at 5:09 PM | PERMALINK

I wasn't crazy about Lieberman either, ... Gore wanted someone squeaky clean, at least sexaully.

Actually, Gore wanted some of that AIPAC money.

Posted by: Hostile on March 20, 2006 at 5:11 PM | PERMALINK

If the Right was in office in the 90's we would still have the internet CN is talking about. only computer programers where using it,And it was a long distance charge.Thankyou Al Gore!!!

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

I am still mad at Gore for not running in 2004. The country deserved a chance to right a great wrong.

Posted by: Andrea on March 20, 2006 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

I'm more worried about her ability to govern than her ability to be elected.
Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 4:18 PM | PERMALINK

Word. If this consideration does not come first when considering one's vote, then it will always, always, remain a choice between the lesser of two evils. I am over it.

Posted by: E. Henry Thripshaw on March 20, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks, I love people defending Gore for saying that. Just something for you to chew on, the internet was born in 1961, Gore was elected in 1976.

Where's Otto getting his "facts" from this time, the "Miy Ferst Webpage Big Liist of Al Gore Fackss end Fegures"? Perhaps from Free Republic's crack research team?

Frankly, using the right-wing Dan Rather standard that every time you've been shown to be wrong about something you can forever be smeared as a liar, we can now safely consign Otto to the role of lying crank.

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

CN,

Those quotes were debunked years ago.

However, the stupid Bush quotes just keep coming. Did you see his explanation of the new medicare fiasco? The man is an idiot.

Posted by: angryspittle on March 20, 2006 at 5:21 PM | PERMALINK

Bob:

I did read your Riverbend post. Basically, you made my point for me.

I wish I had thought of the "Gone With The Wind" analogy. I would have used it myself.

You might learn a lot about hardship, and the costs of war, but if I wanted to find out if the war was fought for a good cause, if the country was better off, or what to think about a group living off the backs of an oppressed population, I don't think the opinion of Scarlett O'Hara would be the first one I'd seek out.

It isn't just a matter of "class," and it's kind of funny to watch a liberal try to twist that into an attack on me. Riverbend, by our standards, is lower middle class.

She stands as a repudiation of the prowar
propaganda about Saddam's tyrant state

Not sure how a liberal could type that without his brain exploding. "Hey, look, I found someone who didn't suffer under Saddam! All of what you heard about Saddam is bullshit!" Bet I could find a lot of people who didn't suffer under apartheid too. What race? Don't get technical.

Posted by: tbrosz on March 20, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

Al Gore is the single individual most qualified to serve as President of the United States of America at this point in history. This was true in 2000, when a gang of career corporate criminals led by Dick Cheney sucessfully conspired with the Bush crime family to steal the presidential election, and it is true now.

And conspiracy nut is the stupidest, most ignorant, most dishonest Bush-bootlicking Rush-regurgitating dumbass to ever post a comment on this site.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on March 20, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

Dishonesty and a riduiculous obsession with Communism.
Damn, Gregory, it sounds like the truth hurts, bud. Or did you plan on Dowdizing my statements again?

After Gore boosted it as a Senator.
Great. Give me a list of things Al did for the internet. I know he requested a report on it. What else did the great and noble Al do for the internet?

And I'm not asking you to do my research; I've looked, and outside of requesting a report, I've found nothing.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

If Al Gore runs again in 2008, Rush Limbaugh will be the happiest man in the world.

Yeah, Rush will be high as a kite...oh, wait, he is already.

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

Windhorse: High doses of Oxycontin have already made Rush Limbaugh the happiest man in the world.

The ACLU running to his defense and helping keep his fat ass out of jail isn't hurting either.

Bwa!

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: the internet was born in 1961

You're making this too easy.

The Internet (which, suprise, suprise, uses the Internet Protocol) was developed around 1973. Even the ARPANET (pre-Internet Protocol) didn't run its first test until 1969.

I think you need a good research assistant. Perhaps Al Franken can recommend someone.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

Or did you plan on Dowdizing my statements again?

Hey, c.n., the truth hurts. You're the one who called the Republican party too socialist for you, and who accused the G8 nations, to a one, of practicing Marxism.

Gore has his faults, but taunts about him from a deluded liar like you shame no one but yourself.

Posted by: Gregory on March 20, 2006 at 5:27 PM | PERMALINK

And I'm not asking you to do my research; I've looked, and outside of requesting a report, I've found nothing.

Yeah, we've seen what happens when Otto does his own "research"....

Hey, maybe that page with the fake Al Gore quotes is also where he found out that Ronald Reagan was a Marxist, that the Republican Party is part of the international socialist conpiracy, and that the US won the Vietnam War! It would explain so much....

Posted by: Stefan on March 20, 2006 at 5:27 PM | PERMALINK

You might learn a lot about hardship, and the costs of war,

What do you care about the costs of war, tbrosz? You support Bush, who insists on paying for his off-the-books running of the Iraq war with a tax cut.

Posted by: Gregory on March 20, 2006 at 5:29 PM | PERMALINK

"Those quotes were debunked years ago."

You mean they are fake but accurate?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 5:29 PM | PERMALINK
Thanks, I love people defending Gore for saying that. Just something for you to chew on, the internet was born in 1961, Gore was elected in 1976.

Well, except that that's not true; the distant predecessor of the modern Internet, ARPAnet, went live in 1969. The immediate predecessor of the modern Internet -- the first TCP/IP WAN -- had its first node online in 1983.

Of course, the publicly-used internet that has had a tremendous effect on many areas of life, business, and the economy is a product of the advent of commercial use and the development and adoption of web browser, both in the early-mid 1990s.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

the ARPANET (pre-Internet Protocol) didn't run its first test until 1969.
Linking started in 1965. But I'm still waiting for what Al did (besides the report he requested, in 1987).

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:31 PM | PERMALINK

"particularly one who's finally figured out how to kick ass?"

How can you say he kicks ass, when he can't even fight for the job that's rightfully his? Loser is the more appropriate term.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 5:33 PM | PERMALINK

I'm still waiting for what Al did (besides the report he requested, in 1987)

Sure, c.n.'s dishonesty gets blown out of the water, so he tries to change the subject and make others do the research for him.

Nah, I think I'll just point to your own quickly-debunked dishonesties and laugh at you, c.n. You have nothing (except dishonesty, etc., but we knew that.)

Posted by: Gregory on March 20, 2006 at 5:34 PM | PERMALINK

What's that CN we can't get a good signal from you maybe you could switch over to Al Gores internet and drop your ARPANET or did you forget to pay your phone bill?

Posted by: Right minded on March 20, 2006 at 5:37 PM | PERMALINK

And you know, I'm thinking you boys are a little touchy about you Democrats going socialist. I think I'll just provide a little outline again, since you seem to enjoy it so much.

We'll start with The Democratic Socialists of America, what do they say for themselves

The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States, and the principal U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International. DSA's members are building progressive movements for social change while establishing an openly socialist presence in American communities and politics.
Now, are we talking real socialists here? Or did the abysmal failure of Marxism have any impact? Let's pull some quotes from their manifesto:
We are socialists because we reject an international economic order sustained by private profit
But, the social ownership characteristic of a socialist society will greatly limit inequality.
...setting the basic framework of economic policy--what social investment is needed, who should own or control basic industries, and how they might be governed.
Social redistribution--the shift of wealth and resources from the rich to the rest of society--will require...massive redistribution of income from corporations and the wealthy to wage earners and the poor and the public sector, in order to provide the main source of new funds for social programs,income maintenance and infrastructure rehabilitation
The struggle for mass democracy has always been led by the excluded -- workers, minorities, and women.
Public ownership of companies, centralized control, wealth redistribution, and last most important, the call for class warfare. (Although "bourgeois" is replaced with "transnational corporation", and "proletariat" with "workers, minorities, and women". But the whole manifesto is a call for class warfare just like Marx did.)

No doubt you're wondering what this has to do with Democrats. Let's find another quote:

Many socialists have seen the Democratic Party, since at least the New Deal, as the key political arena in which to consolidate this coalition, because the Democratic Party held the allegiance of our natural allies. Through control of the government by the Democratic Party coalition, led by anti-corporate forces, a progressive program regulating the corporations, redistributing income, fostering economic growth and expanding social programs could be realized.
It looks like they realize the glorious revolution isn't coming, and they need to infiltrate the Democratic Party. So the DSA started the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

But surely the Democrats wouldn't get on board with such a plan, would they? Heh, to the tune About 1/3 of House Democrats that joined, including the Minority Leader herself. That's a pretty good sized socialist presence in the Democratic Party, not what you'd call a fringe thing. Pretty mainstream.

You lefties are making a fine infiltration.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

Gore's Internet exaggeration is the single most heinous action ever committed by an American politician.

I could have forgiven him if he'd started an unnecessary war that killed scores of thousands by flat-out lying to the world, ignored warnings about existing terrorist and then worked to create as many new ones as possible, failed to plan for or respond to a huge natural disaster, spied on American citizens and lied about it, sent the deficit through the stratosphere, waged continual war on working families, fomented sexual bigotry, been a family rights-trumping buttinsky in the bedroom and the hospice, ignored the healthcare crisis, slashed social programs for the poor, taken cronyism and political-appointee-amateurism to new heights, buddied up to players in a political bribery operation for his party, outed covert CIA agents for personal revenge, or tried to gut the Social Security system. Those are all mistakes anyone could make.

But I cannot forgive him for that Internet business. No.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

so he tries to change the subject and make others do the research for him.
Well if that's the case, I guess we'll get to stick with my research, and conclude that Al Bore's vital input into the creation of the internet was a report he requested in 1987.

Damn, I'm sure it would have never gotten off the ground without that report.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

Gore's Internet exaggeration is the single most heinous action ever committed by an American politician.
Oh, surely not. But it gets you moonbats in such an uproar that it's too much fun.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

How can you say he kicks ass, when he can't even fight for the job that's rightfully his? Loser is the more appropriate term.

You are so right, FF. He should have just taken Nino hunting and blown that election-skewing bastard away with a load of birdshot! Now that would have been the manly thing to do.

But thanks for acknowledging that he took Florida and thus was elected prez. Now run out and play. Supper's at seven.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: Linking started in 1965.

Nut, the first thing to do when you're in a hole is to stop digging.

First, 1965 is later than your originally claimed 1961.

Second, work on computer networks was being done in the 1950's.

Third, the thing that defines the Internet, as opposed to other computer networks, is the use of the Internet Protocol. That protocol solved the problem of internetworking (hence the name Internet, get it?). That protocol was developed around 1973, although not really demonstrated until several years later.

Lastly, most of the principles of electromagnetism were divined in the 19th century (along with the total internal refraction used in fiber optics). So maybe I should say that the real father of the Internet was Michael Faraday.

Oh, and 1's and 0's were developed even earlier (thanks to our Hindu friends for the zero).

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please

DON'T LET IT BE HILLARY!!!!!!!

And I hope we can run JOE MUST GOE Lieberman out of the senate too -- his career, at least as a Dem would be finally over!!!!

Send him home to kiss and snuggle with the chimperor and read Americablog for the last gay news.

Posted by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

OT, but:

Bush's own My Lai:

The ages of the victims are in Arabic numerals.

Posted by: lambert strether on March 20, 2006 at 5:46 PM | PERMALINK

"Idiots don't read web pages."

"Yes, they do, Otto; they just don't understand them."

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINK

You disgusting lying pricks, Newt Gingrich has a quote out there saying how much Al helped the internet.

Sick liars. Look at the war--just look, if you can. I doubt that very much. You'd have to be honest and admit you were clueless bloodthirsty idiots.

All hail George Bush, idiot of the greatest US foreign policy blunder of all time! Isn't it funny how we lied about Al Gore?

Posted by: paradox on March 20, 2006 at 5:48 PM | PERMALINK

First, 1965 is later than your originally claimed 1961.
1961 -Leonard Kleinrock, MIT: "Information Flow in Large Communication Nets" (May 31)
First paper on packet-switching (PS) theory

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:49 PM | PERMALINK

Well, I knew conspiracy nut was going to dominate this thread. I was disappointed to see that it took him a while before he made his first "Wooden Al/Al Bore" reference. That one always cracks me up - so original, never gets old! Love that conservative wit!

Our boy c.n. is the sort who, fifty years ago, would have been driving around in an old car with scripture references painted on it, and a couple of "Get U.S. out of the U.N." stickers on the bumper.

Posted by: Alek Hidell on March 20, 2006 at 5:49 PM | PERMALINK

If patriots opposed to tyranny are afraid to run then who will run...the country?

Posted by: parrot on March 20, 2006 at 5:50 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, forgot to point out that Kleinrock's 1961 paper was nothing compared to Al's request for a report in 1987.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:50 PM | PERMALINK

"Well, except that that's not true"

Well, except that it's not true that that's not true. Its truth status is indeterminate, because when the internet was "born" is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Posted by: floop on March 20, 2006 at 5:51 PM | PERMALINK

"Get U.S. out of the U.N." stickers on the bumper.
Naw, I like us in the UN, and I like the UN in the US. You know the old saying: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

Gore wanted someone squeaky clean, at least sexaully.

So that was BEFORE all the huggy/kissie with the smirking chimp?

The only diffrence between monica/clinton and the chimperor/gannon-gucker is that gannon-guckert must swallow and lewiski doesn't.

Do you think we can find sheets from gannon-guckert's overnights at the whitehouse? Would they have chimp DNA on them and perhaps some santorum stains too (santorum is term for the frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex).

Posted by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK

Alek (hanging head in shame), you're right, as always.

floop, so sorry about the news down under. We're thinking about you guys.

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK
1961 -Leonard Kleinrock, MIT: "Information Flow in Large Communication Nets" (May 31) First paper on packet-switching (PS) theory

Yes, so? You claimed "the internet was born in 1961", not, "the first paper on packet-switching theory was published in 1961"; taking the publication of the first paper on packet-switching as the birth of the internet is like taking the date your parents met as the date of your birth.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 5:55 PM | PERMALINK

tbrosz:

Y'know, Tom, I've cut you more than your share of slack. I've had email discussions with my friends here who insist my charity towards you is in vain. Waterfowl's over on another thread insisting that you're, you know, a reasonable guy and not a troll, and at one time I was inclined to agree.

I'm beginning to see where people are coming from, though. You really do have a habit of taking things out of context and reasserting points that have been thoroughly demolished.

First point here: It is extremely bad form to post a response to a long thread in a different thread where people didn't see the initial post -- especially if your response amounts to taking little bits out of context. I only alerted you to my response here; if you wanted to rebut it you should have done it on the original thread.

So now -- since you're such a SacRete head -- you've forced me to repost the original thread *here*.

Since you laid not one glove on those points, I'd like the folks here to see the context you shredded.

Apologies to all who've seen this already.

tbrosz:

> Bob, I read Riverbend back when she and Zeyad were
> almost the only people blogging from Iraq.

And this excuses your interpretation ... how?

> Had the war never happened, she would still be going to
> work, programming computers, living in air-conditioned
> comfort from the electrical power sucked from the rest
> of Iraq, going to college, and blissfully ignorant, or
> trying to be, of the oppression falling on those
> who were not lucky enough to be part of her group.

And the moral of this story is ... what? That Riverbend and her
social cohort should have been annihilated for being an example
of how Saddam's tyrant state selectively persecuted people?

You obviously haven't read much great war literature, have you.
Most of the most eloquent and wise commentaries on the aftermaths
of wars have been written by the former elite newly disenfranchised.

Gone With The Wind ring a bell?

Riverbend's social situation isn't any more her fault than the
fact that we invaded her country. Just as your own privileged
position gives you no greater or lesser purchase on the truth of
America. It says exactly zero about the justification of the war.
If Riverbend were some kind of pro-Sunni bigot or Saddam apologist
-- well, alright then. But she obviously is neither, so people
like you and the resentment-driven pro-American Iraqi bloggers have
to make this crap up out of whole cloth. It is the most egregious
kind of pseudo-Socialist class warfare rhetoric that you would hotly
reject in any other context. Save when it serves your purposes.

> She seems to have very little to say about Saddam,
> about the effect of sanctions or tyranny on her
> life (if any), or other issues like that.

Right, Tom. She stands as a repudiation of the prowar
propaganda about Saddam's tyrant state -- which is why you and
prowar apologists feel such a strong need to shit on her for, you
know, the happenstance of being born an upper-middle-class Sunni.

> Iraq's middle class was supposedly being destroyed by
> sanctions (I remember the articles, even if a lot of
> others don't.) Does she sound like she missed any meals?

I don't know if she did or not, Tom. Do you? Do you have
*anything* other than this secondhand sectarian resentment
to imply that she found life under the sanctions hunky-dory?

> Do you think she ever railed against living in a
> dictatorship prior to 2003? If there is some mention
> of her pre-war activism, I must have missed it.

So ... Riverbend's views *now* would only be relevant if she
were in favor of the war. Makes a lot of sense to me. It *does*,
however, explain how people on the shorter end of Saddam's stick
would wish to discredit her views. And that's fine -- their
perspective is also valid. But so is hers as a secularized Iraqi
pluralist and technocrat with a cultural predilection for democracy.

This irony here is truly too grotesque to be remotely funny.

> These are facts, and other Iraqi bloggers have similar observations.

Of course they do, Tom. It was well-known before the war that
there was a cohort of urban middle class who lived well (by Mideast
standards) and relatively unmolested under Saddam's regime. That
had, you know, women's rights -- which are now imperiled by the
religious coalitions jockeying for power in the Iraqi government.

Why *wouldn't* a woman like Riverbend fear and tremble over that?

> What's funny is that under so many other circumstances,
> a liberal would treat the political opinions of someone in a
> privileged class in a foreign nation with a lot more skepticism.

What's funnIER is that a conservative would try to
discount a person's views based on her class alone.

Tom, in a warfull of clueless analogies, this one's still a doozy.
NEWS FLASH: The Iraq war wasn't the result of a popular uprising.

> Certainly Iraqi bloggers who are more pro-war are consistently
> accused by the Left of being paid shills on no real evidence.

I don't know if they're all paid shills or not (although I have no
doubt that some have been championed and disseminated by right-wing
blogs, and I strongly suspect that others have received financial
help from Americans and/or the US government). What I do know is
that the so-called pro-Saddam and pro-Sunni bias in Riverbend is
made up out of whole cloth and inferred by what she doesn't say.

And everybody who's studied literature or journalism knows that
you can't critique a work based on what you'd like it to say.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

I saw Al Gore at Constitution Hall when he spoke about national security, back in '04. He was absolutely fantastic -- just as loose then as he is now, and saying things back then that we who read weblogs knew but most everyone else didn't. I waited outside and actually got to shake his hand. A great day all around.

Posted by: pol on March 20, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: First paper on packet-switching (PS) theory

Many computer networking protocols use packet switching - that doesn't make them the Internet.

Me? I'm still rooting for that anonymous Hindu mathematician who invented the zero.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

Well, cm, it sure as hell wasn't born in 1987 when Al requested that report. Unless you think the date of your birth was when you turned 21.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:57 PM | PERMALINK

"And we're hoping your run your pantyhose, like I saw you do last night on Ocean Drive."

If shortstop seems even more cranky and obnoxious than usual today - hard to believe that's possible, I know - it's because the last remaining drop of moisture in her vagina finally dried up this morning.

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 5:57 PM | PERMALINK

alex: Many computer networking protocols use packet switching - that doesn't make them the Internet.

Aw, now you've gone and forced him to look up PS. And he'd cut and pasted it from his web "research" so neatly and all. No one told him he'd have to understand what he was saying!

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 5:59 PM | PERMALINK

If shortstop seems even more cranky and obnoxious than usual today - hard to believe that's possible, I know - it's because the last remaining drop of moisture in her vagina finally dried up this morning.

Woo hoo! Was that the entire GOP speaking there? Are you guys still mad that I've never consented to sleep with a single one of you?

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK
Well, cm, it sure as hell wasn't born in 1987 when Al requested that report.

See, the difference here is I didn't claim it was (I'd say it was born in 1983 when the first TCP/IP network had its first node online.)

You're the one who claimed the Internet was born in 1961 when Al Gore took office in 1976, as a way of trying to paint the claim which Gore never made, that he "invented" the internet, was false.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:02 PM | PERMALINK

Yo, GOP. Leave the low-rent shit to the moonbats.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:03 PM | PERMALINK

My claim, cmdicely, is that all Al did for the internet is request a report in 1987.

Now, given the way Congress works, I don't even deny the veracity of his claim that he took the lead in Congress about the internet. But do you want a list of the occurances between 1961 and 1976 that actually went into the creation of the internet?

We can balance that against Al's request for a report.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:06 PM | PERMALINK

What I'll never understand about Gore is, why he sold-out and picked Lieberman. Gore needs to publicly apologize for the last 8 years. His pick of Lieberman is precisely why Bush won, and why this nation has been so fucked ever since.

Al, apologize for Lieberman. Tell us that some DLC thugs threatened to kill Tipper. Anything. Just don't try to tell us that you seriously thought Lieberman was a good match for your presidency.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 6:11 PM | PERMALINK

Nutless lies and then blames it on faulty intelligence. Ring any bells?

Nutless claims the internets existed in 1961. I guess he and Dubya used to IM.

As to Nutless' parents, they never met. Or at least they were never formally introduced.

Posted by: solar on March 20, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK
What I'll never understand about Gore is, why he sold-out and picked Lieberman.

Gore picked Lieberman because he felt he needed a "values" running mate to effectively distance himself from the Lewinsky scandal, even though there was considerable evidence that that scandal didn't reduce public support for Clinton, much less pose any threat of spilling over and working against Gore as a candidate.

He was running from shadows.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

The *claim*, you twit, is that "Al Gore invented the internet."

HE NEVER FUCKING CLAIMED THAT. That quote was made up by some right wing asshole (I think Rush, but memory doesn't serve here).

He was given props by researchers for doing *more than anybody else in Congress* for promoting its development.

So the *charge* against Gore -- that he's some kind of shameless braggart -- is based on a FALLACY.

Can't you get that through that plastic whirligig that serves as your excuse for a "brain"?

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:14 PM | PERMALINK
Now, given the way Congress works, I don't even deny the veracity of his claim that he took the lead in Congress about the internet.

If you don't deny the veracity of his only claim on the issue, then there is nothing more to say.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:16 PM | PERMALINK

I'm still waiting for what Al did (besides the report he requested, in 1987)

And I'm still waiting for one thing that George W. Bush has done right in his entire life.
Guess I'll have to be a very patient man.

Posted by: ckelly on March 20, 2006 at 6:17 PM | PERMALINK

ckelly: And I'm still waiting for one thing that George W. Bush has done right in his entire life.

Have you seen the aerial photos of El Rancho Busho taken in 2000 and 2006? Can you honestly deny that there are fewer brush patches now?

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 6:19 PM | PERMALINK

shortstop:

And how could anyone deny that reading My Pet Goat upside down was a remarkable achievement in its own right.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:21 PM | PERMALINK

"But thanks for acknowledging that he took Florida and thus was elected prez."

Yeah, he got more votes, but if he aint man enough to fight for his job, he obviously didn't deserve it.

So, will you sleep with me now?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK
So the *charge* against Gore -- that he's some kind of shameless braggart -- is based on a FALLACY.

I don't think "FALLACY", even in all caps, is the right word.

I think "LIE" is more direct, specific, and accurate.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:25 PM | PERMALINK

*clamping Virgotron chastity belt on Freedom Fighter, sticking wires for the Clitrilizer(TM) up his ass, splicing the battery pack wires into a lamp cord, plugging it in and watching the show*

Gosh, I love the nihilism of symbolic violence :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

If you don't deny the veracity of his only claim on the issue, then there is nothing more to say.
Sure there is, 3 more comments since my last on Al baby inventing the internet. This topic stokes the fires of moonbattery. And I like to stoke a moonbat's fire.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:26 PM | PERMALINK

And I'm still waiting for one thing that George W. Bush has done right in his entire life.
I keep telling you, there are 2:
1) He pursued terrorism (I'm not claiming he did it well, just that he did it).
2) He irritates you moonbats.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

Yeah, well, if I repeated that your mother sleeps with Freedom Fighter often enough, you'd start to get pretty stoked, yourself.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:30 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, well, if I repeated that your mother sleeps with Freedom Fighter often enough, you'd start to get pretty stoked, yourself.
I get all kinds of lies told about me here, do I type like I'm upset? Besides, my mom died 20 years ago; you'll need a better lie.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:33 PM | PERMALINK

I have voted the straight Democratic ticket since 1952. If Gore is nominated I will not vote at all. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Posted by: Mary Alice on March 20, 2006 at 6:33 PM | PERMALINK

Here's what Newt Gingrich had to say about Al Gore and the Internet:

In all fairness, its something Gore had worked on a long time. Gore is not the Father of the Internet, but in all fairness, Gore is the person who, in the Congress, most systematically worked to make sure that we got to an Internet, and the truth isand I worked with him starting in 1978 when I got [to Congress], we were both part of a futures groupthe fact is, in the Clinton administration, the world we had talked about in the 80s began to actually happen.

The interesting difference between Democrats and Republicans in campaign strategy is this: A Democrat will attack his opponent where he thinks he's weak; mistakes he's made, incompetence, corruption. In contrast, the Republicans attack their opponent's strengths. Al Gore was rightfully proud of his accomplishments in getting the internet to the point where it is as common as telephone lines. But the Republican attack machine turned that into a liability. John Kerry was rightfully proud of his service as a decorated war veteran. But the Republicans turned that into a liability, also.

Posted by: Daryl McCullough on March 20, 2006 at 6:34 PM | PERMALINK

The word "birth" has no clear meaning outside a biological context, and is especially vague in the context of an entity with no clear beginning. cn's proposed date for the "birth" of the internet is as good as any other.

Posted by: floop on March 20, 2006 at 6:36 PM | PERMALINK

Mary Alice writes: What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Are you suggesting that if Gore runs again, he will again win the popular vote, but will lose the electoral vote due to spoiled and uncounted ballots in Florida?

Posted by: Daryl McCullough on March 20, 2006 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

Mary Alice:

Waitaminute ... straight Dem since '52?

That means that you voted for Stephenson twice.

Why would Al Gore be different?

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

Excellent observation, Daryl.

rmck1: *clamping Virgotron chastity belt on Freedom Fighter, sticking wires for the Clitrilizer(TM) up his ass, splicing the battery pack wires into a lamp cord, plugging it in and watching the show*

Gosh, I love the nihilism of symbolic violence :)

Well, I don't know about that, but it prevented me from becoming the 100th woman to turn him down just since Valentine's Day. Actually, I think the rest of them were probably girls, given the lad's age.

Hey, I do not think this "floop" means what I think it means. Who's stealing floopmeister's name?

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINK

Yep, the internet would never have become what it is today if Al hadn't requested that report.

Gosh, I remember all the long nights Congress put in for the internet. Writing code, stringing wire, soldering all that hardware together. And Al was right there urging them on with tales of the bright future they were creating together.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:39 PM | PERMALINK

"I have voted the straight Democratic ticket since 1952. If Gore is nominated I will not vote at all. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. "

Really? I believe Nixon won in '68 after losing a very close election in '60. Gore might well be savvy enough now to get himself "re-elected".

Posted by: Broken on March 20, 2006 at 6:41 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:33 PM:

Besides, my mom died 20 years ago..

Freedom Fighter is a necrophiliac? Eeeew.

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

Oh, so you're doubting Gringrich, too?

He and Gore pushed for the 'net and dreamed those dreams together.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

"In contrast, the Republicans attack their opponent's strengths. Al Gore was rightfully proud of his accomplishments in getting the internet to the point where it is as common as telephone lines. But the Republican attack machine turned that into a liability."

Golly. So the GOP was able to get control of the presidency, the Senate, and the House of Representatives by attacking the Democrats' strengths? Imagine what they'd have been able to achieve if they'd attacked the Dems' weaknesses, too.

Or, perhaps, your above "analysis" is a crock.

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 6:43 PM | PERMALINK

I keep telling you, there are 2:
1) He pursued terrorism (I'm not claiming he did it well, just that he did it).
2) He irritates you moonbats.
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for the refreshing moment of honesty, cn.

I've been saying this for 6+ years since I figured it out by talking to Bush supporters. This is the ONLY issue that's really driving Republican voters.

Liberal-bashing.

Everything else is bullshit.

Most of them wont admit it until you discuss it with them and drag it out of them after 10-15 (more in some cases) beers.

They'll start out talking about "values" and tax cuts, and they'll even talk about "security" too - and after you point out to them that these arguments are BS, the only thing left is that Bush does the opposite of what Liberals want.

And this was Rove's strategy all along. The politics of division and hate. And that's why every single scandal that comes along, back all the way to the beginning, Bush's Desertion - has been carefully crafted to propagate a message that only 49% of the nation will believe, but there's never enough evidence to convince the other 51%, because they want to hate Liberals so damn much, they'll swallow any bullshit. Including the "Liberal Media" and the "Democrat/Communist Conspiracy" memes.

In the south, among many Republican voters, the Liberal Bashing amounts to racial hatred of the party and ideology that forced abolition, integration, and civil rights down their throats. Elsewhere, it's hatred of those who gave factory workers $40k/yr jobs.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 6:44 PM | PERMALINK
Yep, the internet would never have become what it is today if Al hadn't requested that report.

Or, more importantly, without, e.g., his sponsorship of the High Performance Computing Act of 1991.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

"Yep, the internet would never have become what it is today if Al hadn't requested that report.

Gosh, I remember all the long nights Congress put in for the internet. Writing code, stringing wire, soldering all that hardware together. And Al was right there urging them on with tales of the bright future they were creating together."

1) Gore never said he invented the internet.

2) The two guys who developed TCP/IP protocol said Gore did more than any other elected official in advancing the internet.

As has been noted above by Daryl, the Repubs take a man's legitimate accomplishments and twist them against him. AKA "swiftboating".

Posted by: Broken on March 20, 2006 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

You still here cnut? Gosh, after thoroughly covering this thread with your gaffes haven't you had enough?

And I'm still waiting for one thing that George W. Bush has done right in his entire life.

I keep telling you, there are 2:
1) He pursued terrorism (I'm not claiming he did it well, just that he did it).

Hence the word RIGHT in my prior statement. Try reading s-l-o-w-l-y.

2) He irritates you moonbats.
Not so much irritating - more embarrassing. Kinda like you cn. Got any more "Gore" quotes?

Posted by: ckelly on March 20, 2006 at 6:47 PM | PERMALINK
Gosh, I remember all the long nights Congress put in for the internet. Writing code, stringing wire, soldering all that hardware together.

And here, I thought the important think Congress did was fund research, and provide funding to get government agencies, libraries, etc., on the internet, leaving other people to actually write the code and string the wire, etc., though those activities were in part paid for with the funds Congress appropriated.

But Congress was doing that other stuff, too? Well, that's something I didn't know...

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

GOP:

Hey, Freepy Frawly, attacking candidates for their strengths is a time-honored tactic of Karl Rove.

Just about every examination of how he runs campaigns, whether pro or anti, notes this.

Which is why the Dems are going to run hard on national security.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

cn asserts that the Internet was "born" in 1961, the same way that Jerry Falwell asserts that life begins at conception.

(or rather, life begins at intercourse, and the absence of a fertilized ova afterwards is tantamount to murder, whether that absence was caused by a latex condom, or early withdrawl, or tired swimmers.)

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

the only thing left is that Bush does the opposite of what Liberals want.
Wrong. Absolutely friggin wrong. I said what I meant. Do not confuse liberals with lefties.

Liberalism is a fine institution with many useful ideas. Leftism isn't.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

"I took the initiative in creating the internet."

Look, Dems, that is the quote Al Gore gave to Wolf Blitzer in 1999.

You can try and twist that into "Newt Gingrich admitted Gore was instrumental in the internet" all you want. You can even twist it into "Gore pushed for the internet when he was in Congress" if you want.

But your problem is Gore's grandiose language: "I took the initiative in creating the internet."

Posted by: FrequencyKenneth on March 20, 2006 at 6:51 PM | PERMALINK

Gore is like the rooster who crows at 5 AM, then takes credit when the sun comes up.

Posted by: MountainDan on March 20, 2006 at 6:55 PM | PERMALINK

FrequencyTroll:

That language doesn't sound particularly grandiose to me.

Especially since the creation of the internet as the commercial phonomenon we've known since the mid-90s was, as everyone has noted, a long and arduous process that needed boosters in government who could see its potential long before that point.

Like, you know, Al Gore.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 6:56 PM | PERMALINK

I like Gore too, despite the awful association with PMRC through Tipper. Siily idea. Also he was,/i> out manuevered in 2000. Not good. It meant everything.

And I wish people would stop repeating the canard that he said he invented the internet. He never said that! Never! So stop it already.

Posted by: ww on March 20, 2006 at 7:00 PM | PERMALINK

Do not confuse liberals with lefties.. . .
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

I thought this was the entire goal of Conservatives since McCarthy.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 7:00 PM | PERMALINK

It looks like they realize the glorious revolution isn't coming, and they need to infiltrate the Democratic Party. So the DSA started the Congressional Progressive Caucus.
But surely the Democrats wouldn't get on board with such a plan, would they? Heh, to the tune About 1/3 of House Democrats that joined, including the Minority Leader herself. That's a pretty good sized socialist presence in the Democratic Party, not what you'd call a fringe thing. Pretty mainstream.
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

Do not confuse liberals with lefties.. . .
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 6:50 PM | PERMALINK

Are these posts by the same individual? WTF?

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 7:04 PM | PERMALINK

But your problem is Gore's grandiose language: "I took the initiative in creating the internet."

Yep, then the wingers took that statement and turned it into "I invented the internet".

The man does indeed deserve credit. Which Rove knew. Which Rove then twisted from an asset into a liability with the help of the so-called liberal MSM.

Posted by: Broken on March 20, 2006 at 7:05 PM | PERMALINK

Gore is like the rooster who crows at 5 AM, then takes credit when the sun comes up.
Naw, it's more like this.

For years and years, institutions like MIT, Bell Labs, Stanford, etc labor to bring the internet into being. They develop the theories, they test them. The write the code, they build the hardware. They roll out live tests. They learn, they evolve. They develop apps to go along, email, FTP.

But in the lefty mind, nothing happens until Congress passes it's blessing, and then Congress is responsible for all the good that happened.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:06 PM | PERMALINK
Look, Dems, that is the quote Al Gore gave to Wolf Blitzer in 1999.

No, its not.

Its not even a complete sentence of the statement Al Gore made to Blitzer.

But your problem is Gore's grandiose language: "I took the initiative in creating the internet."

What he said was "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system." And its hardly questionable that Al Gore took the initiative to push a number of Congressional measures which were central to developing the suite of protocols and technologies that defined the Internet of the late 1990s, and enabled the creation of the Internet as a factor important to the national life, particularly as a driver of economic growth and pervasive feature of the education system.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

Are these posts by the same individual? WTF?
Certainly they are. Liberals are not socialist.

See, everyone around here gripes and moans because conservatives have made "liberal" out to be a bad term. But the conservatives didn't do it. God knows you lefties have been trying to demonize the word "conservative" and that isn't working. No, what destroyed the word "liberal" was when the leftists started calling themselves "liberals".

And now that they're using the Democratic Party, they'll destroy that, too.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: For years and years, institutions like MIT, Bell Labs, Stanford, etc labor to bring the internet into being.

And where do MIT, Stanford, etc. get their funding for this? ARPA, a gov't agency. Of course the idea that gov't can fund any useful research violates the basic tenets of your libertarian religion, so you can ignore that fact on 1st Amendment grounds.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:12 PM | PERMALINK
Gore is like the rooster who crows at 5 AM, then takes credit when the sun comes up.

That analogy would be more accurate if a cabal of roosters had provided the money for a system which dragged the Sun up over the horizon, and if crowing was the method by which they communicated their advocacy for that particular use of those moneys.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 7:12 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

And in the conservative mind, a long-term reserch project like creating the internet just sprung up out of private initiative alone, dreamers with gleams in their eyes had the Google IPO in their minds in the mid-50s, when a hardware-independent communications network was conceived as part of military command and control.

Right. No need for government investment *there* :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

cmdicely - thanks for providing Gore's full quote.

"I took the initiative in creating the internet."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!

Posted by: MountainDan on March 20, 2006 at 7:14 PM | PERMALINK

And where do MIT, Stanford, etc. get their funding for this?
Lots of places.

But, I know, until Congress, in its infinite wisdom and beneficence, passing its blessing on to the fledgling enterprise it is worthless.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:15 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: Lots of places.

Sorry nut, but the Internet was an ARPA project if ever there was one.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:17 PM | PERMALINK

Right. No need for government investment *there* :)
That brings up an interesting question about the foresight of one Al Gore, and the rest of Congress. The internet is a work in progress before Al gets elected. At first Al focused on high speed communications. Then finally he noticed the internet (the report he requested in 1987).

If this is such an important thing, why the hell was Congress so late on the ball?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:20 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

The internet was conceived in the bowels of DARPA to begin with.

MountainFreeper:

Al Gore *did* take the initiative in creating the internet as we know it today.

If you think it would have been developed with private investment alone, you're just engaging in a sweaty, sticky Libertarian fantasy.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 7:20 PM | PERMALINK

For years and years, institutions like MIT, Bell Labs, Stanford, etc labor to bring the internet into being.
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:06 PM | PERMALINK

BS.
Without Gore's efforts, those efforts certainly would have gone forward. And the end result would have been about 100 different non-interconnecting expensive proprietary data networks, like AOL, Compuserve, etc., running proprietary protocols, only supported on a narrow range of platforms (most likely just Windows). Eventually, they would have all bought eachother out until they became a closed monopoly, used only by a small elite group of wealthy individuals.

The only interconnectivity between university LANs and Corporate LANs would be via a series of dialup BBSes, or through interconnecting the commercial networks via proprietary gateways.

Without the government intervention to produce a global public data network, there would have been no enforced open public standards, no interconnectivity, and the internet, as we know it today, certainly would not exist at all.

Do you recall AOL circa 1985? Before they bought out Compuserve? That is what the "internet" would look like today. Only there'd be no competition among providers, so I'm sure it would be far shittier.

What you're talking about is the TECHNICAL side of the development of computer networks. What Gore claimed (as a politician, not an engineer) rightly, was credit for the government's initiative - which has become an important common public resource. Without that commonality, much of the utility of the internet simply wouldn't exist. For example, you would not be able to send an email from your AOL account to someone at a Compuserve account.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 7:21 PM | PERMALINK

Osama_Been_Forgotten: Without that commonality, much of the utility of the internet simply wouldn't exist.

But that's Communism!

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:23 PM | PERMALINK

OBF
I was using the internet before Al requested his report in 1987. Your scary what-ifs don't impress me, because I saw those wild and woolly days. Everybody talked to everybody else because that is the way the system was designed.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:25 PM | PERMALINK

Others have mentioned Nixon losing in 1960 and winning in 1968.

Further back in history, Grover Cleveland won the presidency in 1892 after losing it in 1888. And, like Gore in 2000, Cleveland won the popular vote in 1888.

Another parallel would be Ronald Reagan, who ran for the Republican nomination in 1968 and 1976, and did not get it until his third try in 1980.

Posted by: Joel Rubinstein on March 20, 2006 at 7:27 PM | PERMALINK

Hey C-Nut,

since you are so fond of citing Rasmussen polls, I was wondering if you'd comment on the latest?

From Rasmussen:

Monday March 20, 2006--For the third straight day, just 40% of American adults approve of the way George W. Bush is performing his role as President. Prior to the past two days, the President's Job Approval had fallen to that level just once in a Rasmussen Reports survey.

and just for the record: Yes, I know its off topic. Also for the record, firmly staying on-topic has never been a precedent to which you've adhered.

Posted by: Edo on March 20, 2006 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

rmck,

Hey, Kreepy Kommie, if Karl Rove beats his opponents by attacking their strengths, they don't need no weaknesses.

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 7:28 PM | PERMALINK

perpeller head:

Right. With a unversal protocol developed and promulgated by ARPA, and not private industry.

OBF's counterfactual is a pretty good example of the way it works when private industry alone is calling the shots.

Like two competing incompatible standards for HD DVDs at the moment.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 7:29 PM | PERMALINK

Also for the record, firmly staying on-topic has never been a precedent to which you've adhered.
Hey, I resemble that remark!

Ya, Bush's numbers suck. I'm afraid he won't be able to be re-elected with those numbers.

But it's a wonderful opportunity for Republican's in general. They can start bashing Bush and standing up against him. You know the voting public, by November they won't even remember their congresscritter ever supporting him.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

"If Gore had been that loose and funny in 2000, he would be president now" That sure says a lot about how Trog views the American Electorate.

The Daily Show as the new State Department anybody?

Jon Stewart for POTUS

I would name a Repug but they are just plain stupid.

Posted by: OXYMORON on March 20, 2006 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

"Kreepy Kommie" ... he's making me sound like a donut :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 7:31 PM | PERMALINK

God knows you lefties have been trying to demonize the word "conservative" and that isn't working.Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:10 PM | PERMALINK

Well, by your logic, it's the corrupt, racist, white-collar war profiteers who have co-opted the previously honorable term "Conservative" - and it's there fault now that whenever we hear the term "Conservative" - we think of old, white-haired fat pigs like Cheney pocketing money stained with the blood of US soldiers.

Well, that sounds about right.

No, what destroyed the word "liberal" was when the leftists started calling themselves "liberals".

Um, except that I'm not a leftist, most proud self-proclaimed Liberals (myself included) I know get fightin' mad when they're acused of supporting the ideology of Marx, or when the concept of progressive taxation is called "class warfare" or Social Security is called "Communist", or criticizing the president is called "unpatriotic" or "pro-terrorist".

And now that they're using the Democratic Party, they'll destroy that, too.

Dream on, psycho.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 7:34 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: You know the voting public, by November they won't even remember their congresscritter ever supporting him.

So your theory is that a Republican majority will be re-elected in 2006 only because most people won't remember just how fucked up they are. That's quite a testimonial to your party.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:36 PM | PERMALINK

Like two competing incompatible standards for HD DVDs at the moment.
Bad example. The HD boys developed independently. The early internet collaborators worked together.

Once the standards were developed, a new and different standard would be cut off and couldn't get off the ground. Like VHS and Beta, once VHS established a larger base, Beta died. The internet communication protocols were already established, if you didn't adhere...

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:36 PM | PERMALINK

That's quite a testimonial to your party
True, it doesn't say much about yours, either.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:37 PM | PERMALINK

I saw Gore late in the campaign in Madison, Wisconsin and he lit the place up...He was electric, gripping, funny, smart, and authentic. I could never understand how the reporters that covered him could be so out of touch with what I saw...with the reality of who Gore was.

If he's available for 2008, I'll write a check, I'll make phone calls, I'll help however I can.

Posted by: skank on March 20, 2006 at 7:38 PM | PERMALINK

But it's a wonderful opportunity for Republican's in general. They can start bashing Bush and standing up against him.

Just let us know when the bashing starts, okay? Presumably, Dems doing the same thing to a Dem President will also be counted as "bashing". I can't wait to compile the list.

Posted by: Edo on March 20, 2006 at 7:38 PM | PERMALINK

"Conservative": stands and fights for principles he or she has no intention of living up to.

Posted by: OXYMORON on March 20, 2006 at 7:38 PM | PERMALINK

rmck1: he's making me sound like a donut

Don't be offended - they're really good donuts.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:39 PM | PERMALINK
Bad example. The HD boys developed independently. The early internet collaborators worked together.

No, idiot, that's why its a good example.

The HD DVD formats are purely private.

The "early internet collaborators" were being funded by government money, largely through DARPA (though also through the NSF and other agencies), as part of a connected set of government projects, and therefore worked together.

The "working together" was directly connected to the fact it was a government initiative.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 7:39 PM | PERMALINK
Ya, Bush's numbers suck. I'm afraid he won't be able to be re-elected with those numbers.

But it's a wonderful opportunity for Republican's in general. They can start bashing Bush and standing up against him.

An interesting theory. Has this ever worked as a way for a majority party in Congress to "capitalize" on the weakness of a President of their own party?

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 7:41 PM | PERMALINK

Ya, Bush's numbers suck. I'm afraid he won't be able to be re-elected with those numbers.

And also for the record, this dismissal of W's numbers mean that if they go up they are just as irrelevant in your view, right c-nut? Just asking.

Posted by: Edo on March 20, 2006 at 7:45 PM | PERMALINK

when the concept of progressive taxation is called "class warfare" or Social Security is called "Communist", or criticizing the president is called "unpatriotic" or "pro-terrorist".
It ain't just that OBF, all the calls for WalMart to treat their employees better? That is business filling social needs. That comes straight from socialism. It would be fairly stupid to try to claim that wealth redistribution isn't wealth redistribution, and that is also called out for in socialism. Remember John Edwards "Two Americas"? That can only be rooted in class warfare. The years of rejecting States rights for a stronger Federal government? Centralized control is also part of socialism. I could scan through the posts of the "moderate" Kevin Drum and come up with 10 or 20 more real quick.

It's that it is not just one or two things, I could understand some overlap. But when every single thing someone wants is rooted in socialism, and they carry such an overwhelming disregard for everything capitalist, it just seems strange to me that they deny they are socialists.

And given your House Representative's connections...

Now you may think that socialism is the best thing for the United States, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I don't know why the socialists have to hide behind the good name of the Democratic Party, because it won't be a good name when they get done.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

Aplogies if someone has already tossed this in,

"Funding for Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications Initiative, a funding program initiated by then-Senator Al Gore's High Performance Computing Act of 1991."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

Posted by: cld on March 20, 2006 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: The internet communication protocols were already established

By the government. Sounds like Communism to me. Surely you should stop using such an instrument of Leftist manipulation.

if you didn't adhere...

Same ol', same ol' - they'd drag you off to the Gulag. In the days of Comrade Clinton I lost many a good friend because they were found to be an Enemy of the People using a Proprietary Protocol.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

Has this ever worked as a way for a majority party in Congress to "capitalize" on the weakness of a President of their own party?
I don't know. But hey, Rove's whipped the Dems on about everything else...

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:50 PM | PERMALINK

How big of a loser is Al Gore? I mean he can't rightfully take his job as president and can't even put his own name on his inventions. Do we really want a spinless, gutless wuss like that in the white house?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 7:51 PM | PERMALINK

I was using the internet before Al requested his report in 1987. Your scary what-ifs don't impress me, because I saw those wild and woolly days. Everybody talked to everybody else because that is the way the system was designed.
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:25 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, unfortunately, AOL didn't offer internet connectivity until 1995.

http://www.corp.aol.com/whoweare/history.shtml

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 7:52 PM | PERMALINK

Al Gore's High Performance Computing Act of 1991
I believe it was in 73 or thereabouts that there were internet connections spanning 3 continents.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:54 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: all the calls for WalMart to treat their employees better? That is business filling social needs

Yeah, I miss the Gilded Age. I mean, if someone gets killed on the job, they don't deserve to get paid for a full day's work, do they?

Personally I think it all started downhill when that Communist Teddy Roosevelt got involved in the coal miner's strike.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 7:54 PM | PERMALINK

"I put a "Re-Elect Gore 2008" bumper sticker on my car a couple of weeks ago. My fantasy ticket is Gore and a different Jewish guy (i.e. the one from Wisconsin)."

Why not a black guy? For all the loyalty blacks have shown you Dems, you can't even give them a consideration. Why do liberals hate minorities? At the very least, a black VP, even if token, is in order.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 7:55 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Flaneur:

"spinless"

Oh gods, a guy can dream ...

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 7:55 PM | PERMALINK
It ain't just that OBF, all the calls for WalMart to treat their employees better? That is business filling social needs. That comes straight from socialism.

Actually, no. The idea that the special privileges granted to corporations required it to serve social functions is as old as the idea of a corporate charter itself and is more than a century older than socialism.

Not long before socialism came on the scene, that long-standing principal was weakened by the extreme oligarchic capitalism of the pushed by the major holders of capital to secure their own power over society.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 7:56 PM | PERMALINK

OBF
unfortunately, AOL didn't offer internet connectivity until 1995
Ever heard of Usenet? IRC? FTP? Archie? Gopher?

I remember seeing my first WWW site using HTTP, (man, there were actuals links to stuff instead of heading back out to search FTP sites) and thinking that was the way it should be. And it was, too.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:59 PM | PERMALINK

I don't know. But hey, Rove's whipped the Dems on about everything else...
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:50 PM | PERMALINK

. . . to be fair, Rove DID have the help of the mainstream corporate-dominated media. I'd have you and 90% of Americans believing in faeries inside of 24-hours if I had the same tools at my disposal. Some bastards just have no imagination.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:00 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: I believe it was in 73 or thereabouts that there were internet connections spanning 3 continents

Quite a feat, considering that the Internet Protocol wasn't even implemented until 1977. Perhaps they used that ARPA funded time machine.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:01 PM | PERMALINK

Ever heard of Usenet? IRC? FTP? Archie? Gopher?

ALL of those are facets of the government-funded development. You're trying to assert that privately funded commercial development would have yeilded what we today know of as the Internet. I'm saying that that assertion is just plain silly, and utterly ignorant.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:02 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, no.
You uh, want me to quote Marx or the DSA? Or are you trying to sell me that socialism sprang forth from Marx fully developed, like Athena?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 8:02 PM | PERMALINK

The idea that today's global internet standards arose only because the original development was funded by the U.S. government, and would not have arisen if the internet had been developed privately, is total garbage. The overwhelming majority of standards in the computer industry were developed privately and adopted voluntarily, primarily through market forces. Even the global adoption of the internet was voluntary. If Japan or Europe had developed and promoted a competitor to the internet, there might today be several incompatible and competing global standards, just like there are for cell phones and broadcast television.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:03 PM | PERMALINK

Freedom Fuddler:

I want a half-black, half-Eskimo handicapped lesbian on the ticket, myself.

You know ... cover all the bases that way.

Kaptain Krispy

Posted by: Kaptain Krispy Kremey Kommie on March 20, 2006 at 8:04 PM | PERMALINK

I'm saying that that assertion is just plain silly, and utterly ignorant.
Ya I know. You're trying to sell me on the fact that Al's request for a report in 1987 was the turning point in the development of the internet. That it was all for naught until Al noticed it.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 8:04 PM | PERMALINK

"I'd have you and 90% of Americans believing in faeries inside of 24-hours if I had the same tools at my disposal."

Why not just go full out and have people believe Al Gore is actually presidential material?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:05 PM | PERMALINK

Quite a feat, considering that the Internet Protocol wasn't even implemented until 1977.
Or perhaps they used a different protocol?

Naw, couldn't be. Nothing happened until Al requested his report, right?

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 8:06 PM | PERMALINK

I want a half-black, half-Eskimo handicapped lesbian on the ticket, myself.
Hey, I had one of them once, watch your wallet.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 8:07 PM | PERMALINK

Do we really want a spinless, gutless wuss like that in the white house?

Voted W into office twice we did.

Posted by: GOP Yoda on March 20, 2006 at 8:08 PM | PERMALINK

Kaptain Krispy Kremey Kommie: I want a half-black, half-Eskimo handicapped lesbian on the ticket, myself

That's "half African American, half Inuit".

I'd say they should be "differently abled" too, but the Dems have already been there, done that.

BTW Bob, love your new handle.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:08 PM | PERMALINK

Casey:

Actually, the technical term for it is a counterfactual.

You have nothing to go by with it save intuition.

And many others would say that the TCP/IP standard being promulgated by a single agency saved lots of development time.

Kaptain Kreepy

Posted by: Kaptain Krispy Kremey Kreepy Kommie on March 20, 2006 at 8:11 PM | PERMALINK

osama_has_alzheimers,

Yeah, clearly we need the government to do the development and to impose the standards to produce a successful global computer industry product. As everyone knows, the Windows OS and PC architecture were developed by the American government.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:12 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut: Or perhaps they used a different protocol?

Then, by definition, it's not the Internet.

BTW, they had a trans-Atlantic connection in 1858, but that wasn't the Internet either.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:14 PM | PERMALINK

"Voted W into office twice we did."

What does that say about Gore who got more votes but isn't man enough to fight for his rightful job? Maybe Ahnold has the right idea, Al Gore is the girly man...

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:15 PM | PERMALINK

Centralized control is also part of socialism.

You mean the Supreme Court intervening in the 2000 elections is SOCIALISM?

You mean the striking down of state laws permitting the legal sale of Marijuana is SOCIALISM?

"Funding for Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications Initiative, a funding program initiated by then-Senator Al Gore's High Performance Computing Act of 1991."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
Posted by: cld on March 20, 2006 at 7:48 PM | PERMALINK

So what we're talking about here - is not the fact that Computers could connect to eachother using IP in 1973. Not the fact that cn could download plans for building bombs off of usenet in 1987.

Gore's claim is limited specifically to the development of the World Wide Web, and related technologies that were government funded after 1987 - including Mosaic (ie. web browsers) - which led to a popularization of the existing, government-fund-developed capital-I Internet from 1991 to roughly 1995, when the private-funded small-I proprietary networks like AOL finally caught on and connected to the public network. (Finally realizing after 15 years that the key to success with a network is open interconnectivity, not corralling customers in a proprietary sandbox). So the assertion that private development would have accomplished the same goal is lame and bogus which proves 2 things:
1. Gore's efforts WERE IN FACT responsible for the development of the public Internet from a little-used system to connect university computers in the 1970's and 1980's, to the World Wide Web, and everything people in 1999 thought of when the world "internet" was used.
2. CN's lame attempt to turn this into a pro-libertarian argument is lamer than his usual attempts.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:15 PM | PERMALINK

Casey: the Windows OS and PC architecture were developed by the American government

If they had been, I'd quickly join the "government can do no right" crowd.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:16 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe Ahnold has the right idea, Al Gore is the girly man...
Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:15 PM | PERMALINK

Wrong hero, Freedom. Ahnuld selected the lesbian gay-rights leader as chief of staff, in a lame attempt to appeal to liberals, so I think the fight's gone out of him too.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:19 PM | PERMALINK

Casey:

Standards are neither architecture nor operating systems.

Without uniform standards, competing architectures and operating systems are impossible to develop.

For the sake of efficiency, standards need to be set by a single body.

Kaptain Kreepy

Posted by: Kaptain Krispy Kremey Kreepy Kommie on March 20, 2006 at 8:19 PM | PERMALINK

alex: government can do no right crowd

Correction: that should read the "government can do no right except invade countries that pose no threat but lead to a quagmire of an occupation and line the pockets of political cronies crowd".

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:20 PM | PERMALINK

Kreamy Kommie Klansman,

"You have nothing to go by with it save intuition."

On the contrary, it's your conterfactual (that it would have been slower or impossible to develop a uniform global data network if the government hadn't done it) that is a matter of pure faith.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:20 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, Kevin, you're right: Gore is today the best Democratic candidate for president in 2008. Republicans would be unwise to underestimate this particular man -- a fierce advocate of green technologies and critic of current US (non)measures to minimize global warming -- at this particular moment, in which there is pressing moral and economic need to develop green technologies and curb global warming. If this time around Gore can commit himself to complete authenticity, honesty, and fearlessness in the face of inevitable Republican smears, he will be, oddly enough, the man of our time.

Posted by: Derek on March 20, 2006 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, clearly we need the government to do the development and to impose the standards to produce a successful global computer industry product. As everyone knows, the Windows OS and PC architecture were developed by the American government.
Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:12 PM | PERMALINK

I have made my living for the past 14 years fixing broken Windows computers.

That's not an operating system I would call a "success".

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:22 PM | PERMALINK

"Wrong hero, Freedom. Ahnuld selected the lesbian gay-rights leader as chief of staff, in a lame attempt to appeal to liberals, so I think the fight's gone out of him too."

But Ahnold was never anti-gay, so what are you talking about? But I do know, Ahnold wouldn't go sulk in the corner if he had won the vote.

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:22 PM | PERMALINK

Osama_Been_Forgotten: That's not an operating system I would call a "success".

Sounds pretty successful as an employment program.

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:25 PM | PERMALINK

"Standards are neither architecture nor operating systems."

Huh?

The PC architecture (developed by that famous government agency, IBM), and the Windows OS (developed by that equally famous government agency, Microsoft) are the overwhelming global standard for desktop computing.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:25 PM | PERMALINK

"If this time around Gore can commit himself to complete authenticity, honesty, and fearlessness in the face of inevitable Republican smears, he will be, oddly enough, the man of our time."

So would he win, but not get to move into the WH again?

Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:27 PM | PERMALINK

conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 7:59 PM:

Ever heard of Usenet? IRC? FTP? Archie? Gopher?

Ever hear of a timeline?

- DCA and ARPA establish the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and Internet Protocol (IP), as the protocol suite, commonly known as TCP/IP, for ARPANET in 1982. This leads to one of the first definitions of an "internet" as a connected set of networks, specifically those using TCP/IP, and "Internet" as connected TCP/IP internets. DoD declares TCP/IP suite to be standard for DoD.

- Usenet was established in 1979

- FTP officially specified in 1985

- The concept and plan for a national US research and education network is proposed by Gordon Bell et al in a report to the Office of Science and Technology, written in response to a congressional request by Al Gore in 1987.

- Internet Relay Chat (IRC) was developed in 1988

- Archie released in 1990

- Gopher released in 1991

More fun facts available for perusal here.

Now get on with the Gore-bashing...I'll be good practice for when he's your President...

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 8:29 PM | PERMALINK

Casey:

Mine is no counterfactual.

My scenario actually happened.

THK

Posted by: The Human Kumquat on March 20, 2006 at 8:29 PM | PERMALINK

But I do know, Ahnold wouldn't go sulk in the corner if he had won the vote.

You're damn right he wouldn't. He'd have pulled down the pillars of the Supreme Court building one by one, just like Samson. Now that's a man. Maria, fix me a drink! And lose some weight!

Posted by: shortstop on March 20, 2006 at 8:30 PM | PERMALINK

"privately funded commercial development"

was supposed to have given us televisual picturephones by 1960.

Posted by: cld on March 20, 2006 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK

grape_crush: Archie released in 1990

What was he doing time for? Did Betty or Veronica visit him?

Posted by: alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK

You're not alone.

Posted by: Patrick Nielsen Hayden on March 20, 2006 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

But when every single thing someone wants is rooted in socialism, and they carry such an overwhelming disregard for everything capitalist, it just seems strange to me that they deny they are socialists.

Actually, 'socialism' is a magic word which serves as a proxy for all that is evil and iniquitous. In c-nuts mind.

Poor dear doesn't understand that all good capitalists are socialists.

Taxation is 'socialism.' Representative gov't is 'socialism.' A criminal justice system is 'socialism.' A central bank and national currency is 'socialism.'

'Laws' are 'socialism.'

There is no free market without government power limiting the actions of individuals.

A gnat looks upon c-nuts brain and swells with pride.

Posted by: obscure on March 20, 2006 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK

"That's not an operating system I would call a "success"."

I would. I'd call it an incredible, amazing success. Possibly the most successful product in history. It's made Bill Gates into the richest man who ever lived.

Perhaps you prefer the Mac? No, wait, that wasn't developed by the government, either. Darn it.

Or maybe Linux? Linux, of course, is open software, and its developers are about as hostile to government interference as one can imagine.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

Casey:

ASCII is a standard.

All operating systems and computer archetectures conform to it.

Windows is *a* standard -- but hardly the only extant operating system, either. "Standard" in that sense is used generically, or as a synonym for "most common."

All of which conform to ASCII, not to mention TCP/IP.

Orgeltronemy

Posted by: Orgeltronemy on March 20, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

Ya I know. You're trying to sell me on the fact that Al's request for a report in 1987 was the turning point in the development of the internet. That it was all for naught until Al noticed it.
Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 20, 2006 at 8:04 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe we can agree that the event that changed the Internet from what it had been since 1973 to what it became after 1991 (which is what most people think of nowadays, when the word "Internet" is used) is the following:

By 1990, ARPANET had been overtaken and replaced by newer networking technologies, and the project came to a close. Following the close of ARPANET, in 1994, the NSFNet, now renamed to ANSNET (Advanced Networks and Services) and allowing Non-Profit Corporations access, lost its standing as the backbone of the Internet. Both government institutions and competing commercial providers created their own backbones and interconnections. Regional NAPs (network access points) became the primary interconnections between the many networks and the final commercial restrictions ended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_history

While this - in of itself, has no overt relationship to the development of Mosaic, the WWW, and HTTP, (to which Gore CAN claim political credit through the 1991 High Performance Computing Act) - the Web, as you put it in your post - is the way a lot of people thought "it should be" - and this is what attracted MILLIONS of non-technical users to the Internet in 1991 and later, who were not drawn between 1984 and 1991 (period of time where cheap personal computers were available to the mass market - such widespread use of the internet simply was not possible prior to the mid 1980's, because there was no such thing as a 'personal computer' with which to connect prior to that time).

However, the HPCA *did* also direct that all libraries, universities, and research centers be connected to the Internet. When the NSF handed off registration duties to InterNIC, and the elimination of the commercial restrictions on the Internet, is when it's use exploded. If you talk about the success of the Internet, in terms of how relevant it was after 1991-ish, you have to talk about how many people were using it, and what those uses were for. In the entire history of the Internet, starting from 1973, this was the most dramatic, and most relevant change. You can ignore that change if you want, but that's ignorance.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

The remarkable inventor of socialism, Robert Owen,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Owen

Posted by: cld on March 20, 2006 at 8:46 PM | PERMALINK

"Now get on with the Gore-bashing...I'll be good practice for when he's your President..."

Well, he's only tried once and failed. There's always hope.

If I had to choose between death and Gore, I'd choose living in Richmond.

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 9:01 PM | PERMALINK

But Ahnold was never anti-gay, so what are you talking about? But I do know, Ahnold wouldn't go sulk in the corner if he had won the vote.
Posted by: Freedom Fighter on March 20, 2006 at 8:22 PM | PERMALINK

Ahnold said that "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman" - so the PUNK-ASS BITCH hid behind his own poor command of the English Language to get away with issuing the flippitiest-floppiest statement in the history of California politics.

And he'd go sulk in the corner if Ken Lay ordered him to. And he'd call for a new bond to pay him for his time while he did it. (Ahnuld never met a bill he wouldn't put on someone else's credit card).

I would. I'd call it an incredible, amazing success. Possibly the most successful product in history. It's made Bill Gates into the richest man who ever lived.Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 8:36 PM | PERMALINK

Silly moron; you're conflating "Technical Success" with "Commercial Success". I suppose you think McDonalds is the tastiest, healthiest, and best food ever.

Bill Gates being the richest man ever doesn't get me all hot and bothered. I think the world would be just as well off without the existance of his fortune.

By the way, his fortune does not make him the wealthiest man ever. He's nothing compared to some of Bush's best buddies in Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

Perhaps you prefer the Mac? No, wait, that wasn't developed by the government, either. Darn it.

Or, maybe it was, when you consider where it's BSD Unix subsystem came from (ie. B is for Berkeley). Or it's Mach microkernel (Carnegie Mellon). Or the Mouse (SRI/DARPA). Or the TCP/IP protocol that connects it to the internet, which is the feature that 90% of it's customers buy the computer for in the first place.

Or maybe Linux? Linux, of course, is open software, and its developers are about as hostile to government interference as one can imagine.

Not actually true. Linux relies on Government to enforce the GPL license which allows Linux to exist without some sociopathic criminal coming along and stealing the source code, and blocking open access off with bogus patents, like SCO.

Posted by: Osama_Been_Forgotten on March 20, 2006 at 9:02 PM | PERMALINK

ASCII is a standard.

All operating systems and computer archetectures conform to it.

Well, now, most do, other than IBM mainframes that still use EBCDIC.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 9:03 PM | PERMALINK
You uh, want me to quote Marx or the DSA?

I don't want you to do either, since neither would demonstrate that an idea which predates socialism by more than a century (indeed, something that is arguably as old as government-chartered guilds of the middle ages) "comes from" socialism.


Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 9:09 PM | PERMALINK

Or perhaps they used a different protocol?

If it used a different protocol, it wasn't the internet that people talk about today (or in 1999), even if it may arguably have been an internet.

Posted by: cmdicely on March 20, 2006 at 9:12 PM | PERMALINK

alex on March 20, 2006 at 8:31 PM

Did Betty or Veronica visit him?

Heh. Jughead and Veronica are a search engines for Gopher sites...Gopher predates the Web; Think of a Gopher server as a public file server. Betty got left out.

Oh, and Casey? The father of all modern operating systems, UNIX, had its origins as the (grandfather of all) Multics OS, developed at MIT and funded by ARPA.

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 9:13 PM | PERMALINK

"Silly moron; you're conflating "Technical Success" with "Commercial Success"."

Skanky brainfart; Windows wouldn't be a commercial success if it weren't also a technical one. The market rewards success and punishes failure. It may not satisfy your geeky technonerd idea of success, but that's okay. No one else cares.

"Or, maybe it was, "

No, it wasn't. It was developed by Apple Computer, a private corporation.

"Not actually true."

Most definitely true. Open source software developers and administrators are as hostile to the government telling them what to do as any for-profit developer.

"Linux relies on Government to enforce the GPL license ..."

This statement is about as relevant to the issue as the fact that Microsoft relies on the government to punish people that steal its software.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 9:24 PM | PERMALINK

"ASCII is a standard."

ASCII is yet another private standard.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 9:26 PM | PERMALINK


I have always liked Al Gore. In fact, in 1992, I thought the Democratic ticket should have been reversed and been Gore-Clinton, instead of Clinton-Gore. At least with Gore at the top of the ticket, we wouldnt have wasted eight years and $200 million of our tax dollars investigating Al Gores sex life, since he is as happily married as any politician Washington has seen in decades.
Karl Rove did a hatchet job on Gore in 2000, attributing words to him that he never spoke and actions he never took. Gore still won the popular vote but was, as any honest person knows, screwed out of Floridas electoral votes by the most ridiculous and un-American Supreme Court decision in history. I saw Gore in person in 1999 and I thought he was witty, smart, charming and thoroughly unwooden. It is so tragic and sad to think how much better off this country would have been, had Gore been rightfully installed as president and not the doorknob from Crawford. A real turning point in history for the worse.

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on March 20, 2006 at 9:30 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh, and Casey? The father of all modern operating systems, UNIX, had its origins as the (grandfather of all) Multics OS, developed at MIT and funded by ARPA."

Er, grape_crush? Multics and UNIX were never a commercial success. The government is rather bad at making products that people want to buy.

Posted by: Casey on March 20, 2006 at 9:35 PM | PERMALINK

GOP on March 20, 2006 at 9:01 PM:

Well, he's only tried once and failed.

There's winners and losers...and then there's that little known third category that Gore belongs to...

There's always hope.

Yup.

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 9:35 PM | PERMALINK

That one's called "Sorry-ass loser."

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 9:38 PM | PERMALINK

GLOP:

Nixon ... Reagan ... sorry-ass losers until the day they won :)

Iggy

Posted by: Ignatz The Lucent on March 20, 2006 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

".... as any honest person knows, screwed out of Floridas electoral votes by the most ridiculous and un-American Supreme Court decision in history."

Yes, of course it is, comrade.

Posted by: GOP on March 20, 2006 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

Casey on March 20, 2006 at 9:35 PM:

Multics and UNIX were never a commercial success.

Correct about Multics, way off about UNIX...$17.5 billion in UNIX server sales in 2005.

The government is rather bad at making products that people want to buy.

But the government is rather good at fostering the innovation that creates products that people want to buy.

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 9:45 PM | PERMALINK

GLOOP:

NEWS FLASH:

The Berlin Wall fell 17 years ago.

Arnold

Posted by: Arnold Snarb on March 20, 2006 at 9:47 PM | PERMALINK

Forget 2008 for now. I would be thrilled if Gore stepped into a leadership role in the Democratic party. Smackdown Reid and Pelosi. Pat Feingold on the back. Tell Lieberman to switch parties. Give Bushco whatfor. Attack the GOP media.

Get Americans acting to address climate change and oil depletion.

The party has drifted since 2000 in part because Gore, our natural leader, vanished. That has left a power vaccum and a free-for-all. The Clintonista's prowl the perimeter.

Parties need elder statesmen, people who are not afraid to speak the truth. If Gore did his job right, if he actually gave us some leadership, he would also be a shoe-in for 2008.

Posted by: PTate in MN on March 20, 2006 at 9:52 PM | PERMALINK

GOP on March 20, 2006 at 9:44 PM

Yes, of course it is, comrade.

Ah! GOP shows its true colors...Tell me: Are you a Leninist, Trotskyist, or just that that little-known third category that you defined earlier?

Posted by: grape_crush on March 20, 2006 at 9:59 PM | PERMALINK

Great article. If Al Gore runs Al Gore wins. None of the other candidates have his experience. He's a southern with military experience and executive experience. That's the ticket. I wonder who he'd pick for V-P?

Posted by: William B. on March 20, 2006 at 10:34 PM | PERMALINK

John Kerry would make a great Attorney General in a Gore administration.

Posted by: cld on March 20, 2006 at 10:51 PM | PERMALINK

I just read the piece now, too, and I have to admit as a Dean man, I'm impressed and heartened.

He seems to be the only guy who's taking anything like an exciting message to Democrats. Name one single issue that hasn't been equivocated to death by any of the other candidates? WTF does Hillary stand for aside from ... Hillary?

Damn I'd love to see her as VP. Gore/Clinton, Restoration Ticket! -- wouldn't that be a hoot and a half? :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on March 20, 2006 at 10:59 PM | PERMALINK

latts - Hey, not all of East Tennessee is very right wing. In fact, a lot of it is country club Republican. And Knoxville is trending more and more Democratic. Gore carried the city, and Kerry did too.

Posted by: gemini on March 20, 2006 at 11:22 PM | PERMALINK

Nutless claims to have used the internet years before it was developed. Of course Nutless also claims, though unemployed, that he is a capitalist. Go figure.

Posted by: solar on March 20, 2006 at 11:43 PM | PERMALINK

test:
link

Posted by: Neo on March 21, 2006 at 12:39 AM | PERMALINK

an idea which predates socialism by more than a century
Ah, so your argument is that socialism sprang forth from the mind of Marx fully developed.

Clever.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 21, 2006 at 8:52 AM | PERMALINK

Nutless also claims, though unemployed
I'm employed. I work here at the DNC, rallying the base.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 21, 2006 at 8:56 AM | PERMALINK

The Republicans commenting here are thoroughly dishonest. Why does anyone even respond to them? Well, it's because dishonesty works for the Republicans. It's all they have going for them.

If Gore had, instead of saying "I took the initiative in creating the internet" had said (as Newt Gingrich said about him) "I am the person who, in the Congress, most systematically worked to make sure that we got to an Internet" would that have made any difference? Absolutely none. Such a statement would have been twisted into "I invented the internet" as well.

Posted by: Daryl McCullough on March 21, 2006 at 9:03 AM | PERMALINK
The government is rather bad at making products that people want to buy.

Mmmm, so true. It's a good thing the gov't found some private contractors to fill all the Chinese orders for T-bills.

Cuz, that's a LOT of T-bills.

***Note to c-nut:

It has been established, repeatedly ad infinitum, that you have no interest in a discussion which advances anyone's knowledge or understanding of the world.

But you do have a talent for cracking wise and being obnoxious.

So that's something, I guess.

Posted by: obscure on March 21, 2006 at 9:43 AM | PERMALINK

Why not just go full out and have people believe Al Gore is actually presidential material?

Hilarious FF. This from a Bush supporter. You wouldn't know presidential material if it was 100% stitched into your body bag.

Posted by: ckelly on March 21, 2006 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

obscure: But you do have a talent for cracking wise...

D'you think so? This is, what, the 437th time he's cracked the DNC "joke"? The guy has 20 hoary lines on a permanent loop. He's strictly from hunger.

Posted by: shortstop on March 21, 2006 at 12:19 PM | PERMALINK

you have no interest in a discussion which advances anyone's knowledge
You aren't looking to get your knowledge advanced, you're looking for confirmation on your world view. Hell's bells, if you were looking to learn something you wouldn't be hanging out here in moonbat central.

At least I have a realization of why of I'm here, instead of deluding myself into thinking I'm engaging in an honest exchange of viewpoints.

The guy has 20 hoary lines on a permanent loop.
And they just keep working.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 21, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

And they just keep working.

Well...

For you, anyway.

Cheap date?

Posted by: obscure on March 21, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

Cheap date?
That would be an accurate description of you moonbats.

Posted by: conspiracy nut on March 21, 2006 at 1:51 PM | PERMALINK

Gore's statement:


"I'm not planning to be a candidate again. I haven't reached a stage in my life where I'm willing to say I will never consider something like this," he said. "But I'm not saying that to be coy; I'm just saying that to be honest -- that I haven't reached that point."

So, not completely Shermanesque, but it sure doesn't sound 2008ish.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-gore-speech,0,4052108.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on March 21, 2006 at 4:35 PM | PERMALINK

See the page of resources I have on this story, at:

http://sethf.com/gore/

Posted by: Seth Finkelstein on March 21, 2006 at 9:56 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: alain delon on March 23, 2006 at 4:30 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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