BIG BROTHER'S APPROVAL RATING HIGH, POLL SAYS.

*Snicker* You libs can't win on this issue. Bring it on Kevin!

Ignorance is a curable condition. Sometimes it's what you know, sometimes it's how you think about it.

Maybe the question could have been better. Suggestions:

Are you looking forward to going to jail and maybe to court (but maybe not) to explain why you called somebody who called a bad person?

I think this poll is just about null for value. I find it odd that this would poll better than the international wiretapping; I'd be more interested in a poll with a larger sample size and a longer survey period.

That said, it doesn't matter how well this polls--I'm sure all sorts of limitations on freedom poll well. But they're still limitations on freedom, and they're still things worth fighting against.

I'm curious to know how many of the individuals polled had actually read the USA Today article.

Snicker, indeed! Americans know that George W is tapping and surveying only to get Terrorists! Not to trace calls to reporters, etc.

And just because thousands have died in Iraq, Americans realize that more people die in car wrecks! But the thousands who died on 9/11 means we need to shred the Constitution.

SIGH. Here's the point I've been beating this a.m.:

The poll shows 63% approve of the database. Fine. That's support for Congress enabling the NSA to create same.

The poll DID NOT ASK whether the respondents approved of NSA or the telcoms' acting ILLEGALLY to compile the database. That might've yielded a very different answer.

As it is, had ABC and the Post hired Karl Rove to write their poll questions and headline, the White House couldn't have done better.

This poll numbers are like this cuz Dems have refused to make this an issue. You can't expect the public to agree with you if you've made no effort to explain your position. If only they'd gotten behind Feingold's censure resolution...

Americans, as a whole, are generally poorly informed.

There are the famous tests of the Bill of Rights, in which huge majorities (+80 %) disagree with various amendments.

Most Americans want open, sectarian prayer in school.

So, put me down as "unsurpised" by the endorsement of fascist big government by the American public. Americans were big fans of Hitler and Mussolini too.

Let's try the question this way:

"How would you feel about the NSA monitoring your phone calls?"
-or-
"The NSA is using wiretaps of domestic phone calls for intelligence gathering purposes. Would you approve of the Agency monitoring your calls as part of this effort?"

Invasions of privacy are only problematic when they are personal; when they are abstract, they're not a big problem. Making the question personal is essential here because that's where the controversy lies. The calls aren't abstract.

I think there is an extraordinary risk of significant non-sampling error in the direction of "support" when you are conducting a telephone poll to assess support for government surveillance of telephone calls immediately in the wake of the disclosure of that the existing pattern of government surveillance of telephone calls is far more massive and widespread than previously disclosed.

The public has more common sense than the elitists.

The real question is, on the basis of past performance and actions, can te Bush Administration be trusted not to use the data (and the information derived from them) for its own political benefit; and furthermore, can it be trusted to apply the data in a competent manner to be used against the terrorist threat to the United States?

"The NSA is using wiretaps of domestic phone calls for intelligence gathering purposes. Would you approve of the Agency monitoring your calls as part of this effort?"

Hmm. Why might response to such a question not be meaningful in a telephone poll?

Frequency nailed it!

I dont believe a word of it. Another rigged poll.

It's a no brainer. Just get the NRA on our side. If they lied about this, they sure as hell lied about destroying those gun ownership applications and related fingerprint records.

BIG BROTHER'S APPROVAL RATING HIGH, POLL SAYS.

*Snicker* I hate the Constitution and your stupid freedoms. Bring it on Kevin!

I think most people aren't appreciating that these things turn into abuses over time. You tear down the firewall, and eventually the opening is exploited. This is the type of thing that the constitution was designed to prevent.

Even accepting the premise that the current people in government aren't going to do any exploiting, eventually you get enough bad actors realizing that there's a vulnerability, then watch out.

Of course, most people aren't going to stop to think that way. They're just answering the phone and saying, yeah, I want my government to do whatever it takes to stop the terrorists. They don't stop to think that there may be better, more creative ways to do that. That's not their job to think of those things. They're just answering poll questions while getting dinner out of the stove...

You can convince me about the accuracy of he poll only by giving me the details of the algorithm that was used for randomising the samples. Literature is replete with egregious examples of polls that suffered from sampling bias resulting from prejudices of the pollster, just like all those polls that declared the candidate of the party of appeasement and surrender to be the winner in the last Presidential election.

Its May Sweeps. You cant get the media to cover anything but sexual preditors and "sex lies and videotape"

and then its summer. You cant bring a new product (impeachment) out until fall.

How many people actually knew what the story was about? I asked a friend (who's generall well-informed) about it last night and she hadn't even heard the news, so thought I was talking about something else.

Has anyone seen that show on discovery called "It takes a Thief"? It ought to be called, "Let's live in fear!"

For all the rays of hope the bottom line remains: Americans are often stupid and usually scared.

We're doomed because execrable people are better at exploiting that and Republicans tend to be execrable people.

I've posted the question the Washington Post asked --- and the question I wish they'd asked --- here. The poll doesn't mean much, but it does serve as a reminder that this isn't a story that tells itself.

How does the public feel about content providers tracking your IP number? Bloggers distrbuting your e mail address? ISP providers moving your favorite web content closer to your home? Cell companies tracking your location? The government tracking your economic activities? Cable programs we watch? Web sites I click on?

We are awash in digital transmission. The government can have all my zeros and ones. Put all my zeros and one onto some magnetic recorder in the zero and ones bank in Washington DC. Just let me have a cut of the action and I will generate multitudes more zeros and ones for Cheney and his digital collector.

"Do you approve of the NSA listening in to this call, yes or no?"

"Ummm...yes?"

Also, shout out to my fellow Brooklynite!

Next dictatorship will be elected.

I'd think those numbers would change dramatically if the details of the program were known. Most Americans will assume that the government is made up of reasonable men who wouldn't do something as shocking as this program, even today.

The poll's wording was carefully crafted to elicit the conclusion that this spying is okay. Seems pretty deceitful.

Question after question could basically be re-stated "do you want to take away the ability to investigate terrorism?" with the implication that the bush spy programs are limited to terrorists in every single question and also implying that this program is a vital part of the WOT. It's almost like a push poll.

It's also almost as if Wapo is trying to convince lawmakers that they shouldn't bother to oppose this very popular program by conducting a deceptive poll to push that view. But of course they wouldn't do that because that would be unethical.

The proper question would be "do you think this program should be investigated to determine if it was misused for political reasons" and "do you think there should be accountability if innocent Americans have their 4th amendment rights violated".

If you go to any third world country and talk politics to a group of people, sooner or later a significant fraction of them will tell you that what their country needs is a strong dictator.

Republicans have been successful in that some of the characteristics of our country are now more third world-like than what befits the most informed and advanced nation in the world.

To quote The New Republic from last year:

There are structural factors that can chip away at the fundamental validity of polling. . . These problems flow primarily from the difference between liberal democracies and the controlled authoritarian states.

Patrick Leahy is the guy who "nailed" this issue when he asked if the Government actually believes that tens of millions of Americans are associated with terrorists. That is the hook that will sink the "we are robbing you of your freedom to protect you" meme.

Those approval numbers are likely to slide over the next few weeks, as people grasp that 1) the NSA has cast an extremely wide net for next to no result, and 2) their beloved phone companies sold this information to the Feds. I don't think this poll represents much more than a general, abstract endorsement of security and law enforcement.

The public has more common sense than the elitists.

That explains why Bush's approval rating is only 29% in the latest Harris poll yet the troll elites continue to support him.

An interesting take on the NSA program's likely flaws.

The public has more common sense than the elitists.

That explains why Bush's approval rating is only 29% in the latest Harris poll yet the troll elites continue to support him.

Fallacy of generalization.

The first statement was made specifically in reference to the poll in question. It cannot be used as the basis for making any inferences regarding the any other poll, just as the 2000 SCOTUS decision cannot be used as a precedent for any future case.

Get your logic straight, even if you are a liberal frothing at the mouth.

Get your logic straight, even if you are a liberal frothing at the mouth.

If I may speak for all the decent people here...

STFU, troll.

The poll doesn't mean much,

The poll does mean much. It means the collection of this kind of information is widely acceptable. Th fact the naysayers are so low is quite amazing. 35% hate Bush so much they will disapprove of everything and anything associated with him.

The reason Reid has done nothing regarding the NSA is because there's nothing here for the liberals except to remind us you are so very weak on security.

We found out last week newspaper circulation dropped another 2.5% in the last Qtr. This is actually a faster pace than in prior periods. It's these manufactured scandals driving MSM influence down. This story was printed in full in the NYTs last December. It's not only a manufactured scandal but it a repeat.

GWB has an amazing ability to drive liberals whacky. It's hard to overstate the negative effect this has had on the Democratic party since his elction. Virtually every MSM outlet has lost subtantial market share. The NYTs has spent a fortune losing legal battles and is on Credit Watch. Dan Rather left in disgrace and a small army of reporters are awaiting supoena's in the Libby investigation as well as several CIA/NSA investigations. The unions have been clobbered and the blue state to red state migration continues.

Well, you do have Hillary.

this is unbelievable. imagine the howls of protest you'd hear from the wingnuts if it was bill clinton instead of bush monitoring their phone calls. republicans are in favor of government monitoring private citizens. like in russia. ok.

Hey, trollboy - I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the oil & gas industry works. Still digging up the appropriate data?

Oh, no - right. I forgot. You're the "turn tail and run" type when someone calls your bluff.

Never mind, troll.

This poll is depraved - how many false assumptions, bogus dichotomies & how much flat out fearmongering can you put into questions? Well..

43. As it conducts the war on terrorism, do you think the United States government is or is not doing enough to protect the rights of American citizens?

44. What do you think is more important right now - (for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy); or (for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats)?

45. It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

I'd think those numbers would change dramatically if the details of the program were known.

I think they'd change dramatically if the poll wasn't taken by telephone in the midst of revelations that make it clear that we cannot be certain that we know how private telephone conversations are from government monitoring.

Always apply the "Clinton test" to see the reailty.

If Clinton had instituted this program, and kept it from the American people, then insisted that it was right -- what would have been the reaction of the right-wing echo chamber?

'Nuff said.

Presumably, those Americans who support the idea of the government listening in on their phone calls and reading their e-mails have no problem living under a dictatorship, especially if it made them feel safer. No sacrifice is too great for the illusion of security, huh? If that's true, then it probably doesn't matter to them whether they live in the US, Russia or China. Or maybe in "1984" or "V for Vendetta" Britain either.

If Clinton had instituted this program, and kept it from the American people, then insisted that it was right -- what would have been the reaction of the right-wing echo chamber?

Just goes to show that if you are playing politics with Republicans, don't worry about principles. Winning is everything.

I would bet that if a Republican President is caught lying about a blowjob with an intern, the GOP will rally behind him, calling it an intensely personal failing of a deeply Christian man, rather than having its leaders denounce the occupant of the White House for moral turpitude.

Why don't we get a list of the phone numbers of everyone who took part in the poll from the NSA and call them to verify their responses?

"Under the table Winston's feet made convulsive movements. He had not stirred from his seat, but in his mind he was running, swiftly running, he was with the crowds outside, cheering himself deaf. He looked up again at the portrait of Big Brother. The colossus that bestrode the world! The rock against which the hordes of Asia dashed themselves in vain! He thought how ten minutes ago -- yes, only ten minutes -- there had still been equivocation in his heart as he wondered whether the news from the front would be of victory or defeat. Ah, it was more than a Eurasian army that had perished! Much had changed in him since that first day in the Ministry of Love, but the final, indispensable, healing change had never happened, until this moment.

"The voice from the telescreen was still pouring forth its tale of prisoners and booty and slaughter, but the shouting outside had died down a little. The waiters were turning back to their work. One of them approached with the gin bottle. Winston, sitting in a blissful dream, paid no attention as his glass was filled up. He was not running or cheering any longer. He was back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The longhoped-for bullet was entering his brain.

"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

George Orwell, "1984"

Perhaps they will be less enthusiastic when they find out how little this information helps and how deep the Bush administration really wants to delve into their personal lives.

Anybody who thinks the administration is going to use this information solely or primarily to find terrorists is delusional.

The administration has misused every bit of public trust it has been given and has abused every information collection process it has overseen.

This one is and will be no different.

A lot more innocent people are going to be detained indefinitely and tortured because of this.

Patrick Leahy is the guy who "nailed" this issue when he asked if the Government actually believes that tens of millions of Americans are associated with terrorists. That is the hook that will sink the "we are robbing you of your freedom to protect you" meme.

Leaky Leahy is the perfect example of why the Democratic Party cannot win national elections. It's absolutely classic for the liberals to use this clown, kicked off the intelligence committee for leaking secret information, to speak of security. That's just as good as having Teddy Kennedy insist on an estate tax.

You think that's a hook only because you are just as dense as he is. This 'scandal' was written about in detail in the NYTs in December. It's was a dud then. It's a dud now. It'll be a dud in November.

Your party, and especially it's leadership, is way to the left of the American people. Yes, the Deaniacs are passionite and they mean business. It's perfect! You've got 20% - 30% of the polulation locked up. And that's all you'll ever have

Just goes to show that if you are playing politics with Republicans, don't worry about principles. Winning is everything.

I would bet that if a Republican President is caught lying about a blowjob with an intern, the GOP will rally behind him, calling it an intensely personal failing of a deeply Christian man, rather than having its leaders denounce the occupant of the White House for moral turpitude.

Yep. You hit it right on the nose.

The number one purpose for these losers is simply echoing every excuse they're fed. The comic tragedy is their belief that they think for themselves, when all they are are dutiful signal repeaters.

GWB:
"We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."

Translation from bushspeak:
"There exist millions of americans who's personal lives we are not trolling through with this particular program. (you know, like babies, prisoners, and so on... there are lots of people without phones)"

I think they'd change dramatically if the poll wasn't taken by telephone in the midst of revelations that make it clear that we cannot be certain that we know how private telephone conversations are from government monitoring.

I think you're jumping the gun, there. This poll shows that folks haven't yet thought through how they might be affected. But give it a week, let more and more questions surface, let people start to imagine how a half-cocked fishing expedition could affect them, and the conclusions of this particular survey will unravel. For instance, by now, more and more people are beginning to assume that when Bush says there's nothing to worry about, it's time to start sweating. Let's wait a week or two, and then see how happy people are with their phone companies, and the NSA, and the latest Bush lie.

Your party, and especially it's leadership, is way to the left of the American people. Yes, the Deaniacs are passionite and they mean business. It's perfect! You've got 20% - 30% of the polulation locked up. And that's all you'll ever have

A perfect example of a mindless signal repeater in action. Thank you, robot.

http://www.umich.edu/~nes/nesguide/toptable/tab2a_1.htm

GWB has an amazing ability to drive liberals whacky.

That's because he's surrounded by a phalanx of corporate PR men, oil patch money, and neocon nut cases. Libs can't match the first two. They don't have the money. And they don't have the jaw dropping cynicism required to do corporate PR. And then the media rolled over for the neocons. Reading Assasin's Gate is like reading about a con job still in progress. No wonder libs got on their computers and started getting "whacky" or whatever (spelled "wacky", by the way). No one is driving the train. No grownups anyway.

I would bet that if a Republican President is caught lying about a blowjob with an intern

You would not catch a GOP President getting a blowjob from an unpaid, depressed intern. Now if a Gennifer Flowers clone were handing out of the WH you might be on to something.

It was never about the blowjob. The man was the President of the USA and that's the best he could do? He's an embarrassment and he'll always be an embarrassment.

That people are still generally uninformed about the entirety of the program is not surprising.

What is also not surprising that the wording of the questions did not really address the issue of illegality.

It is also not surprising that the trolls here gleefully beating their chests, seem to feel that an opinion poll somehow equates to validation that the programs are legal. Since when is legality determined by polling?

You trolls are intellectually dishonest. Again, not surprising.

"If you go to any third world country and talk politics to a group of people, sooner or later a significant fraction of them will tell you that what their country needs is a strong dictator."

Yes. Exactly. All many, many people want is order. They don't care about anything except being able to make money and not being annoyed. A lot of people, many more than any of us imagine, don't like freedom. They like their own personal freedom, but their freedom consists of next to nothing, their lives are often pablum. They see themselves as the default citizen, what a "real" American is, and they'd be much happier if no one was allowed to be much different. They don't see their situation or lifestyle as the result of liberal democracy, which it is, they just see themselves as the real and regular people and laws and government don't do anything for them, all they do is let other people be real annoying.

I work with a woman who's ten years out from Armenia and she was disgusted those immigration marches were allowed to occur. "Too much freedom destoys" was the poetic way she put it. I think people like her and all the "real" Americans out there would like to live in a fascist state because in their mind all that would mean is "liberals" wouldn't be able to act up.

So when it happens and they realize all their wealth and priveleges were the result of liberal democracy, let's all pitch in for a giant "I told you so" sign you can see from space.

I watched ABC's coverage of the issue last night, and it was radically biased towards making excuses for the program. I was shocked at how blatant it was.

"It was never about the blowjob."

You're right. It was about the psychosis of the American right. It was about how out of your fucking minds you all were/are.

This will all change when they realize the telco windfall is ten times what Frist promised, if only they act mad. Thanks, NSA!

Also fascinating will be the effect when some of the numbers that were tracked start to get released.

rdw thinks Clinton was embarrassing. rdw doesn't get out much these days, does he?

Discussions of this type of intrusion inevitably bring out the "I don't have anything to hide" crowd. Ceding the 4th Amendment comes so easy to many people. Ask them if they'd like glass walls on their houses. Nothing to hide, right? How about mailing a list to every household of every stop all their cars made the previous month. Dad gets mom's list and vice-versa. We'll just tag every car with a monitor and let everyone know all its travels. Nothing to hide, right? How about a high powered microphone by the watercooler at work. Nobody ever gossips or says anything untoward about the boss. Nothing to hide, right? Let's see, we'll publish on the internet everything you view on pay cable, a monthly summary accessible to all. Nothing to hide, right? Where do we stop? We don't, not until each of our daily lives are akin to the amoeba under the microscope, every undulation of its protoplasm noted and recorded. Happy monitoring!!

This is just plain fucking stupid - stupid of them to even take a poll - when no one even knows what the real program is!!! What in the hell is wrong with this country? This USA Today is the Watergate break-in of this administration. If you can't see that, your blind.

"The annihilation of the individual self and the attempt to overcome thereby the unbearable feeling of powerlessness are only one side of the masochistic strivings. The other side is the attempt to become a part of a bigger and more powerful whole outside of oneself, to submerge and participate in it. This power can be a person, an institution, God, the nation, conscience, or a psychic compulsion. By becoming part of a power which is felt as unshakably strong, eternal, and glamorous, one participates in its strength and glory. One surrenders one’s own self and renounces all strength and pride connected with it, one loses one’s integrity as an individual and surrenders freedom; but one gains a new security and a new pride in the participation in the power in which one submerges. One gains also security against the torture of doubt. The masochistic person, whether his master is an authority outside of himself or whether he has internalized the master as conscience or a psychic compulsion, is saved from making decisions, saved from the final responsibility for the fate of his self, and thereby saved from the doubt of what decision to make, he is also saved from the doubt of what the meaning of his life is or who 'he' is. These questions are answered by the relationship to the power to which he has attached himself. The meaning of his life and the identity of his self are determined by the greater whole into which the self has submerged."

- Erich Fromm, Escape from Freedom

BB,

Looked up your chart but don't get the point. A measurement of strong Democrat vs weak Democrat vs strong republican vs weak republican is not relevent to national elections. If you looked at the data you'd know this. Your chart says Reagan was crushed in 1980 and 1984.

It seems to make my point anyway. With 17% strong Democrat, the lowest since 1978, and 16% weak Democrats, 2nd lowest since 1952 we have a total of 33%. This is the lowest of ALL polls taken since polling started in 1952.

Dean is so flaky not even all liberals support him. I gave him 20% to 30% and he got creamed in the Democratic primaries. I gave him roo much.

well, what can you say, Americans continue to drink the koolade and probably will for the Nov election as well. With all the crap, Rove wins again. I'm done. I'm out.

If they want a fucking Christain nation with big brother watching all, at prepetual war, while rich corps grind the worker bees, let em have it. Let them eat cake.

Utterly, deeply disappointing.

i call bullshit on that poll. there were 502 respondents and these results don't at all correspond to earlier polling that showed an almost even split (and this was under the assumption that fredo was only spying on terrarists and their accomplices) and monitoring international incoming/outging calls.

more likely corporate media getting out front and trying to shape public opinion. seriously, how much information and time was there to be able to give an informed response. presumably the calls were made yesterday -- the fucking story didn't hit till yesterday morning and there certainly was not alot of opportunity to read and think about this if you happened to catch the 2-minute segment on abc/cbs/nbc last nite.

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

It seems to make my point anyway. With 17% strong Democrat, the lowest since 1978, and 16% weak Democrats, 2nd lowest since 1952 we have a total of 33%. This is the lowest of ALL polls taken since polling started in 1952.

And it's still 5% higher than the combination of "strong republican" and "weak republican".

Any other "point" you'd care to make?

I don't understand why people think in terms of "nothing to hide". I mean, I don't want anyone listening in on my email/phone or anything else regardless of the content. What does "nothing to hide" have to do with it?

Wait, I do know why. It's a way people can feel they're distinguishing themselves from bad people and criminals. It's not about them not having anything to hide, it's the message they're projecting by letting the government listen to them. Two parts: I'm not a bad person/criminal/liberal. I want bad people/criminals/liberals punished. In other words, "I hate liberal America so much I'd welcome wire-tapping if it kept them in their place".

These people see police control/thought control, whatever extent it leads to as a plus for them. It's an extention of their desire- punish the elite liberals!

Jesus, if Bill Clinton was an embarrassment, what does that make W?
Well I guess it's embarrassing to be the worst preident ever.

What, t-bore, no link? The first part of your post made sense, the second part? Not so much.

"Your party, and especially it's leadership, is way to the left of the American people."

rdw is right. When will you libs wake up and realize that protecting America is a winning issue for Republicans? It's laughable that you're surprised a majority of Americans approve of the government trying to catch terrorists.

Cite all the polls you want. In November, Americans will once again choose leaders they see as having backbones and protecting their values.

MSNBC showed the most recent poll--Bush at 29% approval.
and he's going to drag congressional Repubs down with him. You wingnuts better get to work photoshopping some pics of Democrats in bed with farm animals, it's the only shot you have at this point, and even if they're believable, it's still not a very good shot.

Jack, trying saving some money for a down payment on your own brain. The one you're currently time-sharing with rdw doesn't seem to be working out so well.

"And it's still 5% higher than the combination of "strong republican" and "weak republican".

Any other "point" you'd care to make?"

Yes, polls routinely undercount conservatives. In the last 3 elections, Republicans routinely performed much better than polls indicated. Some people analyzing the polls indicated the problem was that calls were made during the day, when conservatives were busy working, and so unemployed liberals were over-represented.

It's laughable that you're surprised a majority of Americans approve of the government trying to catch terrorists.

Well, "trying" is all they ever seem to do. The Bush regime isn't actually so good at the "catching" part -- or has anyone seen Osama bin Laden, the man responsible for the largest single act of mass murder in American history, in custody lately?

Yes, polls routinely undercount conservatives.

Haha - one of the long-standing, well-loved myths of the foamers on the right-wing.

You guys don't have home phones, right? Only poor niggras do. And if you do have one, right-wingers hang up on pollsters, because they're so busy -- trolling message boards.

And anyway, most polls are biased because the MSM is so liberal.

Yadda yadda - we've heard it before. Yawn.

"Well, "trying" is all they ever seem to do. The Bush regime isn't actually so good at the "catching" part"

No attacks on American soil since 2001. Their success is inarguable. I thought you guys were the "reality-based" community?

. Some people analyzing the polls indicated the problem was that calls were made during the day, when conservatives were busy working

Yet here you are, in the middle of the work day. Fancy that.

When will you libs wake up and realize that protecting America is a winning issue for Republicans?

Actually, "failing to protect America" seems to be the winning issue for Republicans. The one issue that Bush has been riding on for his presidency is September 11th, when Bush, despite multiple warnings, failed to protect the World Trade Center and the Pentagon from attack.

No attacks on American soil since 2001. Their success is inarguable.

Allowing the largest terrorist incident in our history is a "success"?

We usually don't have much terrorism in this country, so their "success" after their "success" of getting 3,000 people killed isn't what I would brag about.

No one is driving the train. No grownups anyway.

This train left the station day one and hasn't stopped. George, Dick, Condi and Rummy know exactly what they're doing and they're not going to stop either.

Think about how different the world is going to be since Slick Wille retired.

You of course read the announcement by Isreal they moved up the completion date of the security fence (border). It seems they want to be finished by the time GWB leaves office. They don't want any loose ends in the event the election goes to the Democrats and they insist on negotiating with terrorists. The Jews learned their lesson with one Clinton. They're not going to suffer another.

Who could have thought in 2000 that in 2006 Ariel Sharon would be the most beloved President in Israeli history? Clinton and the liberals buried him as the terrorist and got Arafat a nobel prize. History has already deemed that decision braindead stupid.

If you want to consider a metaphor in the corporate world for the Democratic party consider the New York Times. Besides losing subscribers they've pissed away a fortune losing legal battles, fired various editors and reporters for fraud and now are on Credit Watch waiting to be downgraded. That describes the Democratic party's fortunes as well.

It would also be instructive to look at the UN, the EU, NATO, the IMF, the World Bank, Labor Unions, the World Court, etc. It has been a very difficult century so far. And GWB STILL has 3 years to go!!

And again - apply the "Clinton Test".

If 9/11 had happened on his watch, what would have been the reaction of the right-wing echo chamber.

'Nuff said again.

"Yet here you are, in the middle of the work day. Fancy that."

Yeah, but who can deny liberals are over-represented as a percentage of the population on this board?

Yeah, but who can deny liberals are over-represented as a percentage of the population on this board?

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me the shocking revelation that right-wingers are over-represented as a percentage of the population over at Redstate.

Why aren't you hard at work, like all "conservatives" are? Not sucking off of the Gummint Teat, are ya? Or are you ripping off your employer?

Rove has got to be tap dancing on his desk this morning at this poll. They still have it, Americans are still drinking the terrorism koolade and Nov is gonna be a slam dunk. Astute observations from some of the trolls. Security trumps all, everything, and the Regugs hold that card and certainly know how to play it.

Americans...stupid as rocks.

This is a poll of 502 adults. We don't know how the questions were asked (at least I don't) and it just seems silly to base any conclusions on that small of a sample.

Think about how different the world is going to be since Slick Wille retired.

Much worse, and everyone but the Bush bootlickers know it. That's why your dismal failure of a president is teetering at 30% approval ratings--much worse than Bill Clinton ever was.

Spin it however you want, no one's buying it.

NSA Expresses Concern Over Pattern of Calls to Domino's Pizza

As part of the warrantless surveillance program, the NSA has been mining data on the number of calls to Domino’s by some demographic populations. The calls seem to be concentrated in liberal cities that are sometimes known as college towns. Conservative commentators have expressed concern that such a high concentration of calls could indicate that the liberal 18-22 year old demographic is supporting terrorist causes.

Rush Limbaugh, the conservative talk-show host, chimed in on the issue on his show yesterday. “Have you ever called a Domino’s? You know,” he said, “I’ve been calling them for years, sometimes twice in one day, and I’ve yet to speak with one American.”

Limbaugh continued, “The NSA says a lot of these calls are going out just before midnight straight from college campuses. Let’s see if we can make a connection here. Liberals calling foreigners at astonishingly high rates at odd hours? You do the math, folks.”

The NSA said its data mining project has turned up high-value information in the fight against terror, but it was very concerned about the data missing from the area dominated by Qwest, which refused to hand over the phone records.

An NSA spokesman said, “Qwest, headquartered in Denver, CO, is the carrier for the University of Colorado at Boulder. CU Boulder is known for its party atmosphere and occasional rioting after football games. We can only assume the pattern of late night calls to Domino’s is present there, but we don’t know who is doing it. To be without this data about calling patterns there is cause for great national security concern.”

“We know they hire males of Middle East descent,” the spokesman continued, “and we’re concerned that the transactions they do, which sometimes involve tips of up to two dollars, may be going to fund terrorists.”

Another NSA official, speaking to us on the condition of anonymity, said, “We called a Domino’s in Boulder, trying to get the information any way we could. There was a guy named Muhammad answering the phone. We asked for call recordings, but he insisted on getting our delivery phone number first, and we had to abort the operation.”

President Bush, speaking in the Rose Garden, said, “Just this one patternistic finding justifies the whole program, and I think the American people realize that we’re doing everything in our power to protect them from the evil-doers—no matter where they’re hiding.”

but our GDP is growing like gangbusters

About half of the growth numbers in the last quarter came from government spending, medical costs, and food.

The average growth over the past 5 years has been anemic (to be kind) by historical standards.

I mean, you're either with us or the terrorists, and if you're not with us when a Democrat is in charge, I guess you're a terrorist.

oh yes, and the conservatards will all become civil libertarians so fast it'll make your head spin. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Jack. You're a douchebag.

Stop talking to Jack. He's a douchebag.

Jesus, if Bill Clinton was an embarrassment,
what does that make W? Well I guess it's embarrassing to be the worst preident ever.

Not quite. He's evicerated liberals and liberalism. Your ideological partnership with European elites is dead. Schroeder is gone, Chirac will be tossed out any day and Blair might have a year left. He's pulled out ALL infantry troops of Germany permanently and returned almost every facility in Western Europe to the home country. We may form coalitions of the willing with NATO but otherwise NATO is done. French and Germany influence on the USA will be virtually non-existant in the future.

We are embracing the Asian world and it's being led by trade. Thus this dramatic global realignment can never be reversed.

GWB changed the world in the way conservatives wanted it changed. The fact liberals hate him is a good thing. It's because he did what we wanted done.

You have to at least agree Roberts and Alito are brilliant justists!

. On the plus side, 56% of the respondents thought it was a good thing that the news media have disclosed the NSA's secret programs. That's a faint ray of hope, anyway.

Does anyone else but me see the idiocy of this statement.

THINK a little bit. We elect representatives to oversee secret programs and make these decisions in small bipartisan congressional committees for a reason. It is because once you disclose a secret program to the general public, for the most part, the object of the secret program can take simple evasive measures to destroy the programs effectiveness.

Leaking the information to the press destroys the program.

This seems so obvious to me that I think anyone who can't see this has his eyes so blinded by partisanship that they are not worth listening to.

So, what will all these people who think that the news media was right to expose the program ( effectivelly destroying it ) do if the legal experts and the intelligence experts conclude it was both an effective and legal program? Say a big collecitve Oops?

So let's see what Al thinks when President Hillary is collecting those phone calls.

Better watch out, Al.

Let's register all guns,after all if there legal you have nothing to worry about.A gun is the most used terrorist weapon ever built,Get one pointed in your face and you know what terror is all about.

"Leaking the information to the press destroys the program.

This seems so obvious to me that I think anyone who can't see this has his eyes so blinded by partisanship that they are not worth listening to."

You loved rush week, didn't you? "Please sir, another carrot up my ass, sir! Yes sir!"

And it's still 5% higher than the combination of "strong republican" and "weak republican".

Any other "point" you'd care to make

Well thanks for actually making my point. It's an exceptionally stupid poll.

1980 41% Dems 23% GOP - Winner Reagan
1984 37% Dems 27% GOP - Reagan
1988 35% Dems 28% GOP - GHWB
2000 34% Dems 24% GOP - GWB
2004 33% Dems 28% GOP - GWB

There are always more people calling themselves Democrats except they don't vote that way. It's been 30 years since a Democrat won 50% ofthe vote and 40 years since anyone willing to call themselves liberal.

It's also interesting the only time in the last 52 years the GOP numbers were higher was in 1994.

The Democrats results are the lowest in 52 years and the lowest EVER measured. Nice poll.

He's evicerated liberals and liberalism.

Which is why polls show that support for the Republican party, even on key areas of historical Republican strength, has been eroded under Bush?

Your ideological partnership with European elites is dead.

What ideological partnership with European elites?

Schroeder is gone, Chirac will be tossed out any day and Blair might have a year left.

Neither Schroeder nor Chirac was ever closely tied with the American left, and Blair was largely destroyed by his attachment to Bush.

He's pulled out ALL infantry troops of Germany permanently and returned almost every facility in Western Europe to the home country.

So? What does that have to do with liberalism, one way or the other?

We may form coalitions of the willing with NATO but otherwise NATO is done.

As NATO is, from the ground up, a US-led institution that spreads the cost of US initiatives, this is bad for the US, not good.

French and Germany influence on the USA will be virtually non-existant in the future.

So?

We are embracing the Asian world and it's being led by trade. Thus this dramatic global realignment can never be reversed.

Embracing Asia based on trade was, perhaps, new in the latter years of the Reagan Administration, its certainly been a very clear trend since then, and is hardly a novel feature of Bush the Younger's tenure. "Embracing" Asia through twin, open-ended military campaigns in Central and Southwest Asia is Bush the Younger's unique innovation in that regard.

And it is no more impossible to reverse than any other alignment the US has pursued.

GWB changed the world in the way conservatives wanted it changed.

Certainly, if you consider only those conservatives who wanted an expanded and increasingly intrusive federal government, ballooning deficits, destroyed international credibility and a tied down military to jeopardize US security by removing the capacity to project a credible threat to back up diplomatic positions, and surging global disdain for the US matched with a clear preference for cronyism over effectively dealing with security threats, natural disasters, or other matters of importance, George Bush has changed the world the way those "conservatives" wanted it.

That's why he's the worst President ever.

You have to at least agree Roberts and Alito are brilliant justists!

Whyever should I be inclined to believe that?

you are so very weak on security.

Republicans are so very weak on freedom, liberty, and democracy

We found out last week newspaper circulation dropped another 2.5% in the last Qtr. It's these manufactured scandals driving MSM influence down.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the explosion of information on TV, cable, and internet - especially online newspaper access and subscriptions.

Tool.

This train left the station day one and hasn't stopped. George, Dick, Condi and Rummy know exactly what they're doing and they're not going to stop either.

They know what they're doing, but in a different reality:

The [senior adviser] said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about Enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality." (article reproduced here: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml )

I keep wondering, does Fox news send out secret messages on how to get the stuff you guys all smoke?

Jason:

You won't get any argument from me or ( I think can be safely said ) all conservatives about the need for a free press.

Freedom however must be exercised with responsibility.

I am not intereseted in having a government controlled press. I am interested in having a press that is at least intelligent enought to know when killing a story in the national interest is a good thing. From the little I know about this program to date I think it was probably legal. I don't know if it was that effective. The one thing that is very clear is that it will not be effective any longer.

Freedom with responsibility is the only way to have a decent society. All other options ( short of the perfect benevolent dictator - and we are cleary woefully short of perfect leaders )lead to terrible oppression.

Think about how different the world is going to be since Slick Wille retired

The World thinks and the World weeps.

Blair??? The only Western leader to stand with GWB???

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Sorry, but you stepped into it, big time, with that one.

No, I didn't. Blairs problem is not Iraq or standing with GWB. His labor party is beset by scandal and caving in the polls. They are in their worst position since 1993. The conservative opposition is well ahead of labor. The loser here is liberalism. Tony was strong on security but he is well to the left on social issues and taxation and has brought the UK economy back to French levels.

The loser here is liberalism across Western Europe. Their economies are the slowest growing on the planet. They have high debt, high unemployment and crushing welfare state burdens they can't possible finance. Even if their populations were not ready to collapse they still could not finance their welfare states.

The liberal model, everything you aspire to be, is France. Or it was. GWB changed all that. We associate France with one thing and it ain't something they'd choose.

The World thinks and the World weeps.

They buy stock in Kleenex. I'm no longer a teenager. I find this talk of 'popularity' insultingly childless. Grow a spine.

The one thing that is very clear is that it will not be effective any longer.

Please explain. Are terrorists going to resort to using carrier pigeons now instead of the telephone to communicate? Smoke signals instead of email?

Of course not. It's common knowledge that law enforcement has been able to tap phone calls for half a century at least, and we've known for a decade of the government's ability to monitor all communication. And evildoers and lawbreakers have carried on as usual.

Christ, the merits of the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program was debated publicly in Congress for frick's sake.

The only thing that has changed here is that the terrorists now know that the government is spying on every single American citizen in addition to spying on them.

Think, don't emote. Think!

From the little I know about this program to date I think it was probably legal.

"The little you know" seems to be an apt description of your general state of knowledge. Here, from ThinkProgress.org, an explanation of why the regime's spying program is illegal:

1. It violates the Stored Communications Act. The Stored Communications Act, Section 2703(c), provides exactly five exceptions that would permit a phone company to disclose to the government the list of calls to or from a subscriber: (i) a warrant; (ii) a court order; (iii) the customer’s consent; (iv) for telemarketing enforcement; or (v) by “administrative subpoena.” The first four clearly don’t apply. As for administrative subpoenas, where a government agency asks for records without court approval, there is a simple answer – the NSA has no administrative subpoena authority, and it is the NSA that reportedly got the phone records.

2. The penalty for violating the Stored Communications Act is $1000 per individual violation. Section 2707 of the Stored Communications Act gives a private right of action to any telephone customer “aggrieved by any violation.” If the phone company acted with a “knowing or intentional state of mind,” then the customer wins actual harm, attorney’s fees, and “in no case shall a person entitled to recover receive less than the sum of $1,000.”

(The phone companies might say they didn’t “know” they were violating the law. But USA Today reports that Qwest’s lawyers knew about the legal risks, which are bright and clear in the statute book.)

3. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act doesn’t get the telcos off the hook. According to USA Today, the NSA did not go to the FISA court to get a court order. And Qwest is quoted as saying that the Attorney General would not certify that the request was lawful under FISA. So FISA provides no defense for the phone companies, either.

The Backwash Brigade (rdw, Jack) just loves losing freedoms.

Which is why polls show that support for the Republican party, even on key areas of historical Republican strength, has been eroded under Bush?

Here's some polls for you:

2000 GOP Senators 50 GOP reps 221
2002 GOP Senators 51 GOP reps 229
2004 GOP Senators 55 GOP reps 232

That's the strongest poll showing in Congress in 55 years.

Well thanks for actually making my point. It's an exceptionally stupid poll.

Why? Because it shatters your bs?

There are always more people calling themselves Democrats except they don't vote that way.

Talking out of your ass again, I see.

The Democrats results are the lowest in 52 years and the lowest EVER measured. Nice poll.

You just said it was an "exceptionally stupid poll".

Make up your mind, idiot.

Let's go back to your original assertion, which you want to run away from.

"Your party, and especially it's leadership, is way to the left of the American people. Yes, the Deaniacs are passionite and they mean business. It's perfect! You've got 20% - 30% of the polulation locked up. And that's all you'll ever have"

The numbers, which you obviously don't understand, indicate 50% lean Democrat, 40% lean Republican, and 10% are Independent - as of the last election.

In the 2000 election, 49% leaned Democrat, 37% leaned Republican, and 12% were Independent.

What's important in every election is the center 3 categories and where they'll swing - 40% in 2000 and 39% in 2004. The 2000 election was a statistical tie, and 2004 the GOP had a slight edge.

Your characterization that Democrats have 20-30% of the population "locked up" (and it was meant as an insult) is a dumb and misinformed insult, because the Republicans have even less "locked up". That's why they have to go to extraordinary efforts to swing a more substantial portion of the middle.

Generally speaking, there are twice the number of right-wing extremists as left-wing ones. This is why an extremist like yourself has the twisted perceptions that you do. This advantage in numbers among the "foamers", coupled with a dominance in signal repetition via the media and the government, gives people a sense that your numbers are greater than they are, when in fact right-wing foamers, such as yourself, are only 19% of the population - at best.

So what the GOP does is bark louder than they bite (to give the impression of being a "majority"), then do everything they can to make people cynical and exasperated with government -- promoting that it's futile to vote and participate. This amplifies the "foamer" factor more by keeping half of the voting age population away from the polls.

The biggest nightmare for the GOP would be if 80-90% of the people voted and/or they lost control of the major media. In that case, they'd cease to exist as a meaningful second party.

http://www.umich.edu/~nes/nesguide/toptable/tab3_1.htm

Time will kill the GOP.

They buy stock in Kleenex. I'm no longer a teenager. I find this talk of 'popularity' insultingly childless. Grow a spine.

You certainly spell and compose sentences like a teenager. And your posts definitely convey a juvenile, in-your-face tone that's straight out of a middle school chat room.

You find all this talk of popularity "childless"? That's not surprising since conversations don't have children.

Oh, you meant "childish?" Well, if you find it so childish, why do you prattle on endlessly about how popular conservatism is?

That's the strongest poll showing in Congress in 55 years.

BFD.

The Republicans lost 48 House seats in the '58 elections, 36 in the '64 elections, and 48 in the '76 elections (which is one which has a similar political climate to this year).

It will take 16 seats to flip the House and 7 to flip the Senate.

Good luck.

Grow a spine.

Ah, rdw the great spiny one. Bravely sends other families loved ones to fight and die in inane wars against the wrong people while he courageously pecks on his keyboard and blows sunshine up his own ass.

Uh, you might want to check your meds. The 'scandals' and the 'caving in the polls' is pretty much due to the fact that Tony Blair hitched himself to GWBs wagon and it went off the white cliffs of Dover.

Wrong again. NONE of the recent scandals which led to his cabinet shakeup were related to Iraq. Conservatives greatly admire Blair for his stance on Iraq which has cost him politically but Tony is a European liberal. He's also undone most of Thatchers reforms such that the UK economy has finally fallen back to French levels of performance. He's also been very Clintonian regarding his approach to homeland security with his 1st concern in making sure he doesn't offend the terrorists.

While the war in very unpopular in the UK their commitment is less than 5% US levels. Blairs problems are domestic.

It's rather amazing but the French have been Tigers regarding. They've all but ended immigration from Northern Europe. Wiretaps? No problem! They make GWB look like Clinton.

BB: Good luck.

Thanks, but we don't need it.

We have Bush and his 29% approval rating working for us.

And the self-centered and self-destructive GOP congressional membership.

Luck will have nothing to do with it.

Sliced and diced, troll. Now you're done.

Wasn't it a little soon to do a poll about this? People probably didn't even know what THIS incidence was all about when they first heard the question yesterday.

Second point -- I'd like to see how many of the poll's respondents were Republicans.

And thirdly, agreeing with someone above, had they said it was possibly an illegal activity, I don't think this would have polled the same way.

"Your ideological partnership with European elites is dead. "-rdw

And now we are in partnership with the Iraqi Democracy. I don't know about you (no,actually I do) but I prefer European liberal (and ancient) democracies as allies, as models, and as places to live. I also prefer the "ideology" of the West over Islam. But that's just me, rdw. Write when you move to Iraq.

The Republicans lost 48 House seats in the '58 elections, 36 in the '64 elections, and 48 in the '76 elections (which is one which has a similar political climate to this year).

There is no similarity between 2006 and 1976. Or 64, or 58.

76 was Watergate and 64 the Kennedy assassination. In 2006 we have a President with low polls but he's not running. We have a Congress with even lower polls and they're just as bad for each party.

I don't blame you for focusing on polls. You have nothing else. GWb has whupped you 3x's now.

You won't get any argument from me or ( I think can be safely said ) all conservatives about the need for a free press.

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building." -- Ann Coulter

There is no similarity between 2006 and 1976

Keep telling yourself that.

Corruption scandals and extreme unpopularity - check.

Energy crisis - check.

Put your fingers in your ears and sing LaLaLa some more.

In 2006 we have a President with low polls but he's not running.

Nixon wasn't running again either, but care to take a guess at what happened in the next congressional election?

George W. Bush and his failed policies are a giant cinder block around the neck of every Republican running for election this year. Spin all you want, you're going to lose--then you'll be left pointing to whatever is happening in England as some sort of "victory" for conservatism.

I can see why you don't want to address Bush's 29% approval rating--it totally undermines your lame argument that he's some sort of great and popular president. He's not, history will always show that his lowest approval rating was over 10 points lower than Bill Clinton, and that he allowed the worst terrorist attack ever on American soil, ignored the warnings, and took a nice long vacation instead.
George W. Bush is a joke and a failure. And you don't need to waste your time trying to convince all us liberal lefties here otherwise--you need to convince 70% of the American people.
Good luck!

Of course, as we've established before "rdw" is merely a sad paranoid schizophrenic who lives in a carefully constructed fantasy world, so such things as "facts" and "reality" don't really pierce the armor of his delusion. It's rather sad and disturbing to see he's gone off his meds again.

I prefer European liberal (and ancient) democracies as allies, as models, and as places to live. I also prefer the "ideology" of the West over Islam. But that's just me, rdw. Write when you move to Iraq

My distinction wasn't even a little bit confusing. European and Western liberal elites had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy. Pre-68 Liberal Democrats, cold warriers all, could make that claim. Not the Carter-Clinton band of appeasers that represent liberalism today. Even Clinton hates to be called a liberal.

I am very, very comfy here in S.E. PA. I won't be going to Iraq or Western Europe. As far as allies we will be with them when it works. But it'll never be as it once was. It can't be. Economics and ideology have changed too radically. Our economic future is Asia.

Rummy explained it as clearly and suscinctly as it can be explained regarding NATO and other coalitions. "In the future the mission will drive the coalition. The coalition will NOT drive the mission. That means NATO is dead.

We've already pulled 95% of our troops out of Europe and aside from some staging all of our material. NATO is a shell. We will never again sit around a NATO table thinking up missions. We will sit around the American table deciding our missions and THEN call NATO and see who's interested and only then contribute assets and participate in NATO exercises.

It's not hard to look our and see who we'll be teaming with down the road. NATO is working in Afghanistan but outside this kind of primarily peacekeeping mission Europe is of limited value. They are weak militarily and except for the UK and Denmark very inexperienced. The fact is they can only hold the US back in a serious fight.

Our future is not in Europe.

I don't blame you for focusing on polls. You have nothing else. GWb has whupped you 3x's now.

"Turd blossom" has whupped us 3x. And pretty much because he will stoop to any tactic that will get oil patch boy elected--claim that his opponent fathered illegitimate children, commandeer news stations to play 30 minute attack films "in the public interest", you name it. Dems are not this cynical. They have a naive belief in having a healthy public discourse on governing. They actually have a conscience. I know this is hard for you to imagine. I know, just think about what your kids learn in school. But maybe for your kids they grow up and those beliefs go away with Santa Claus.

I enjoy being penetrated anally.

rdw: I don't blame you for focusing on polls. You have nothing else. GWb has whupped you 3x's now.

This from someone who lived and breathed polls when they were going in his favor.

LOL.

We remember when you said Bush would never touch Carter territory, yet that is where he's at.

I am very, very comfy here in S.E. PA. -rdw

Of course you are. Why should you be in Iraq, fighting for democracy in a cause you claim to believe in? There clearly is no good outcome in those cards.

Blairs problem is not Iraq or standing with GWB. His labor party is beset by scandal and caving in the polls.

Funny...so is the GOP.

And you don't need to waste your time trying to convince all us liberal lefties here otherwise--you need to convince 70% of the American people.

I am not trying to convince you of a thing. I am laughing at you.

Why on earth would I need to convince 70% of the people of anything? I see John Roberts and Sam Alito, proud and authentic conservatives on the Supreme Court. I see tax cuts getting extended. I see Union membership cratering. I see the next electorial alignment transferring 7 to 10 seats from blue states to red states. I see major newspapers lose 2.5% of their subscribers and know the MSM continues to shrink. I see the NYTs put on credit watch and will wait for the publisher to be fired. I see 4.9% GDP growth and 4.7% unemployment. I saw tax receipts climb by 15% in 2005 and 11% so far in 2006. I see George telling Jacques to stuff it as he's waving bye-bye to Gerhardt.

I don't care what GWBs poll numbers are because he's guarranteed 3 more years NO MATTER WHAT the polls say.

Funny...so is the GOP.

The republicans in Congress have better polls than the Democrats in congress.

George will serve 3 more years and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. The next President will take office in 2009. If's labors polls continue to slide they can call elections in the UK next week.

rdw enjoys seeing the country going to hell!

Of course you are. Why should you be in Iraq, fighting for democracy in a cause you claim to believe in? There clearly is no good outcome in those cards.

I'm not in Iraq because I'm too old. But unlike the vast majority of liberals age 50 and under I served.

Poll didn't mention "secret," to say nothing of "of uncertain legality," etc.

Pretty much mentioned upthread, but - narrative, narrative, narrative! Whether it's short-term - Bush's an incompetent liar who thinks the Constitution is there, a la Triumph, for him to poop on - middling - this happens every time, and every time things get out of control and regular people get hurt - or long-term - country of laws, not men - it's all about narrative.

I see John Roberts and Sam Alito, proud and authentic conservatives on the Supreme Court.

It doesn't seem like Michael Luttig is feeling so proud:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_05/008787.php

I'd say he's feeling "penetrated anally", to use your words.

I don't care what GWBs poll numbers are because he's guarranteed 3 more years NO MATTER WHAT the polls say.

Geez, if you can't even count, then there's not much hope for you. Although it helps to explain you nonsensical rambling and wishful trendspotting.

Enjoy your little fantasy world, the rest of us carry on.

I don't care what GWBs poll numbers are because he's guarranteed 3 more years NO MATTER WHAT the polls say.

You are either grossly unfamiliar with both history and the constitution or you are abusing the word "guaranteed".

Oh, and congressional Repubs unfortunately aren't guaranteed "3 more years"--thanks to the deadweight of Bush's sub-30 approval ratings and failed policies.

Congressional hearings on all of Bush's illegal activities should be interesting, but seeing some sanity return to Washington will be even better.

rdw enjoys seeing the country going to hell!

4.9% GDP growth, 4.7% unemployment. Tax receipts up 11% after 15% the prior year. Unit exports up 12%. John Roberts Chief Justice.

I understand life sucks for liberals but conservatives are doing just fine.

Daddy had such soft, gentle hands for such a strong man.

I understand life sucks for liberals but conservatives are doing just fine.

Talk to us after November.

You are either grossly unfamiliar with both history and the constitution or you are abusing the word "guaranteed".

Actually not either. Of course he could have a heart attack tomorrow and there could be an assassination attempt however he takes great care of himself and is very well protected.

As far as liberal hopes for impeachment that's laughable but I do hope you talk it up before the election.

Things do stay the same.

John Adams estimated that 1/3 of colonists were Whigs, and another 1/3 Tories. The last third cared about little more than their Starbucks (I mean tea) and property values.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
- Mr Sam Adams

"Another week, another set of losses for the dramatically diminishing dollar, which on Friday slumped to its lowest level since October 1997 in trade-weighted terms.

The continuing sell-off came amid a series of events that should, in theory, have aided the greenback. The Federal Reserve released a broadly hawkish monetary policy statement, Thursday's US trade data was far better than feared, and the US Treasury declined to formally cite China for currency manipulation, a ruling that would have been expected to drive further Asian gains against the dollar.

Yet sentiment has turned so decisively against the greenback that it still fell"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ft/20060512/bs_ft/fto051220061314267912

Looks like the market can cut through the bullsh*t about the "booming" economy.

As far as liberal hopes for impeachment that's laughable

Well, yeah, Bush talks the big talk, but when the votes are aligned against him, no matter how much he's talked about forcing people to go on the record, he runs away (see his commitment to a UN vote on specifically authorizing force in Iraq). So, he certainly won't be removed by impeachment; he'll take the Nixon way out when the vote count is clear.

rdw: Why on earth would I need to convince 70% of the people of anything? I see John Roberts and Sam Alito, proud and authentic conservatives on the Supreme Court. I see tax cuts getting extended. I see Union membership cratering. I see the next electorial alignment transferring 7 to 10 seats from blue states to red states. I see major newspapers lose 2.5% of their subscribers and know the MSM continues to shrink. I see the NYTs put on credit watch and will wait for the publisher to be fired. I see 4.9% GDP growth and 4.7% unemployment. I saw tax receipts climb by 15% in 2005 and 11% so far in 2006. I see George telling Jacques to stuff it as he's waving bye-bye to Gerhardt.

You also see dead people and little green men.

Doesn't mean it's real.

I don't care what GWBs poll numbers are . . .

Then you are going to be very disappointed when GOP turnout is low in November due to his unpopularity.

Low turnout is good for the Dems, bad for you, no matter how deluded you are.

rdw: I'm not in Iraq because I'm too old. But unlike the vast majority of liberals age 50 and under I served.

The first is certainly a lie.

The latter is a lie as to the first part and likely as to the second.

I understand life sucks for liberals but conservatives are doing just fine.

The desperation in GOP congress members belies your assertion.

rdw: 4.9% GDP growth, 4.7% unemployment. Tax receipts up 11% after 15% the prior year. Unit exports up 12%. John Roberts Chief Justice.

DOW falling.

National debt and trade deficit rising.

Actual wages declining.

GOP approval rates falling.

Confidence in Bush falling.

Bush's foreign policy being discredited at every turn.

Deaths in Iraq climbing.

Number of dangerous nuclear powers increasing.

Number of maimed American soldiers increasing.

Number of honorable American soldiers pursued by the DOD's bill collectors increasing.

American scientific prominence decreasing.

Global warming and hurricanes increasing.

Gas prices rising.

Education levels falling.

Only the delusional would see the above as "doing just fine."

And if you don't care about polls, why do you keep pointing to Carter's polling numbers when he's been out of office nearly 20 years?

Bush "accomplishments"?

Global Whine on Terror

Roadmap To Nowhere
Every Child Left Behind (aka, Minority Children Left Behind)

Prescription Dung Bill

Social Security Deform

Homeland Insecurity Agency

Plan to Establish Demagoguery Throughout the Middle East

War on Integrity in Government

War on Scientific Reality

rdw:

Perhaps you are unaware. I the 90s the CPI inflation indexed was judged to be inflating inflation artificially too high. So the index was changed so that now it underscores inflation by one and one half points too low.

This slows down the growth of social security payments and other payments related to indexing.

But it has another effect. It causes the GNP growth rate to be inflated.

That means Bush's enemic growth rates of 3-4% are really 1.5-2%.

Furthermore the unemployment statistics are deflated because anyone unemployed for more than 6 months is rolled off.

That means are unemployment rate is double, and instead of 5% unemployment, we really are at 10-11% unemployment.

All this is why, despite the 'official numbers' Bush is getting poor marks on the economy. All the money is flowing to a few thousand people in the top .01% of the economy. 90% of the people are losing ground, big time and they know it. Even if Bush , and you, are too stupid to know it or prefer to just lie and propagandize something that is as something that is.

The number of new jobs are not even keeping up with the growth in the work force. And the number of labor hours worked is still below the year 2000, as is the pay.

Get that:
Real Econ growth only at: 1-2%
Real Unemployment at: 10-12%
Real Cost of Education UP
Real Cost of Housing UP
Real Cost of Energy UP
Real Cost of everything UP
Real Profits UP
Real National Debt UP
Real Fatalities in Iraq UP
Real number of wounded in Iraq UP
Real threat of Terror UP

Real Pay for average college graduate DOWN 4%

There is not one single sound basis to be pro-Bush. None.

He's toast. The only reason for advocating for Bush is that you simply hate America and Americans unless they are millionares.

Daddy had such soft, gentle hands for such a strong man.

Yes, I hear daddy has all sorts of interesting qualities:

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/29266/

I just repeat what Rush tells me. That's why I'm incoherent when you ask me to defend my idiocy.

"European and Western liberal elites had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy...."

HAHAHAHA,hoho, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA, sniffle, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh jeez, my side.....

Get me to a hospital quick! I think I just read Monty Python's Killer Joke......

Adolf Hitler: My Dog has no Nose!
SS Member: How does he smell?
Adolf Hitler: Terrible!

rdw: Thus this dramatic global realignment can never be reversed.

Gee, that's just what Hitler said about his coalition with Mussolini!

Evil men think alike.

He's evicerated liberals and liberalism.

Your understanding of "evicerated" seems very similar to that Princess Bride character's understanding of "inconceivable".

You have to at least agree Roberts and Alito are brilliant justists!

There you go again, insisting that people must agree with you!

Uh, no we don't agree.

They've certainly shown no "brilliance" to date.

European and Western liberal elites had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy.

You are right. They had everything to do with it.

European and Western liberal elites had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy.

Some 9th Grade History, courtesy of the Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment

You have to at least agree Roberts and Alito are brilliant justists!

What's a "justist"?

Some 9th Grade History, courtesy of the Wikipedia:

Are you following the thread? The European and Western liberal elites we are talking about are named Chirac. Schroeder, Blair, Clinton, Carter, Kerry, Dean, etc.

So "'Schroeder, Blair, Clinton, Carter, Kerry, Dean' had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy"?

Doesn't make any sense, dude. Conservative hacks: often in error, but never in doubt.

Furthermore the unemployment statistics are deflated because anyone unemployed for more than 6 months is rolled off.

Everything you've posted is utter nonsense. The above is comically stupid. There is no time limit for being counted as unemployed. If you are looking for work and can't find it you are unemployed. Doesn't matter if it's been 1 day or 99 years.

We are in the midst of a global economic boom the likes of which the world has never seem. No 'normal' nations are in recession and all continients but Europe are growing above trend. GWB has done a brillaint job cutting taxes to stimulate investment, lowering regulatory barriers and completing trade deals to embrace globalization. Unit exports are surging at a 12% rate.

The largest economy in the world by far has managed an amazing refocus of trade from Europe to Asia leading GWBs political and military efforts by more than a decade. Intel get more than 60% of it's sales from Asia. GE, IBM, Catepillar, Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard, etc, have all set up shop in Asia and will soon generate a majority of their revenues from there.

The US economy is perfectly positioned to grow with Asia. GWBs embrace of India as well as Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Australia is perfectly timed.

Not only is the US unemployment rate at 4.7% but we're at the front edge of a severe labor shortage. The boomers are turning 60 and while demand will remain very strong

I mean Schroeder, Blair, Clinton, Carter, Kerry, Dean, don't have time machines. So they couldn't have helped develop Western civilization or democracy. Although maybe you're the type who thinks they keep them at Area 51 or something.

So "'Schroeder, Blair, Clinton, Carter, Kerry, Dean' had nothing to do with the development Western civilization and certainly not democracy"?

Doesn't make any sense, dude.

Ok, I'll bite. What has you confused?

Scroll to the bottom of the Wikipedia page. Where it says "Important Figures"? Every one of them was liberal except for Edmund Burke. These people were the progressive elites of the time. They have everything to do with Western civilization and democracy. They were undeniably the liberals of their time.

Gee, that's just what Hitler said about his coalition with Mussolini!

The realignment is permanent. It has nothing to do with dictators and not all that much to do with politics really. While GWB is leading politically he's really following American businesses. Jack Welsh of GE announced almost 15 years ago the US had to be in Asia and they had to get there soon. Jack was already there.

Last quarter Intel received 60% of it's sales from Asia versus 18% from Europe. And that imbalance is only going to grow. George is only doing the obvious. The behavior of France and Germany in the period leading up to Iraq only made it easier. We have removed virtually all of our troops from Germany and returned a majority of our bases to the German government. Obviously with the dramatically reduced footprint we only need a fraction of the State department personnel of just a few years ago. At the same time business and diplomatic interest in India, Indonesia and throughout Asia are just exploding.

The realignment is as inevitable as globalization. GWB just advanced the timetable for both.

This is one of the reasons the people on blogs like this find the whole "reality based community" thing I mentioned above so scary.

It's like the Bush people are turning their back on enlightenment principles. Almost like we're going back to the absolutist 18th century monarchies. Bush seems to be saying, "I am the state. Screw your Enlightenment principles." This is the kind of thing that got the original 18th century liberals riled up, and as you can tell from this blog, it gets us riled up as well.

So they couldn't have helped develop Western civilization or democracy.

That was the point. Look at the post of 5:16. The writing in italics is mine.

Current day liberals like John Kerry would love to be discussed in the same sentence as the great philosophers and thinkers such as the ancient Greeks and others associated with the development of Western civilization up throught and including those who aided the evolution to durable Democracies such as we enjoy in the US and Western Europe.

But they are two different terms with totally different meanings. Liberalism associated with Plato and Locke and Jefferson is our proud heritage. Liberalism associated with modern day politicians is our bane. This is a cheap Madison avenue rip-off for PR purposes and nothing more.

Fortunately, as George Clooney would point out, it hasn't worked out very well. The branding didn't stick.

Every one of them was liberal except for Edmund Burke. These people were the progressive elites of the time. They have everything to do with Western civilization and democracy. They were undeniably the liberals of their time.

sorry JJ, comparing Kerry, Clinton, Dean, Kennedy, Reid, Pelosi and the rest of these clowns with the greats of history is stupid. It's laughably, immeasurably, insultingly stupid.

The Democratic party appropriated the name for PR purposes. It's no different than what GM or GE or any other organization with a need for a sales pitch. It's no different than those democrats trying to change the name to progressive. They figure the term liberal has been so trashed by the Democratic party they need to start over and 'progressive' have been media tested.

You can still compare youself to the greats if you wish. You just can't be taken seriously.

There is not one single sound basis to be pro-Bush. None.

Doesn't it just suck 62M Americans said the exact opposite a short while ago in the only poll that counts?

I don't mean to compare us to the greats, least of all myself, believe me. And good God, not Kerry, Dean and co. (that's why we're in trouble-- the candidates we've had have trouble organizing a two car funeral, let alone a campaign). But there are some very basic principles, and the Bushies don't have them. Which is scary. Read the Suskind article I mentioned above:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101704A.shtml

Doesn't it just suck 62M Americans said the exact opposite a short while ago in the only poll that counts?

Yep, juvenile middle school taunts.

I've talked to a few of those who voted in that poll you're referencing and it does suck to be them for sure. They're pissed at what an utter, incompetent failure Bush has proven to be, regret voting for him, and would take back their votes if they could.

They realize what a huge majority of the American public realizes now: Bush is nothing but a sham, a pawn of big business and special interests who fooled them into voting for him by playing on their fears and prejudices.

Can't say we didn't try to warn them.

I try to suck my own penis every day, but it's too small and I'm too fat.

I've talked to a few of those who voted in that poll you're referencing and it does suck to be them for sure. They're pissed at what an utter, incompetent failure Bush has proven to be, regret voting for him, and would take back their votes if they could.

Polls outside a campaign are utterly meaningless and we don't get do-overs. If you are going to pay attention to them you've got to look at all of the numbers. The same polls which ABC was touting yesterday showing GWB at 31% also showed Kerry at 26%. I'm not quite sure who those people were going to vote for if not Bush but obviously it's not for Kerry.

Also, every poll showing poor numbers for Bush also shows worse numbers for Congress and not just for the GOP. The Democrats in Congress have done nothing to help themselves. As in all elections it will be a matter of turnout and you are going against Karl Rove and the great RNC machine VS Howard Dean. The good doctor ran what was probably the worst managed primary campaign in History.

You will not get the Senate back and will be lucky to pick up more than one Senate seat. Santorum is in trouble but the GOP is in the running for open seats in NJ, MD and MN. You will be lucky to get more than 5 seats in the House. If Conyers keep on talking you won't get that many.

I mean, let's be serious here--every single one of them is a liberal idea put in place by liberals for the benefit of all Americans.

Nothing like living in the past. Were you even alive when these things were passed? You may have been alive for the civil rights acts in the mid 60's but if you are under 60 you had zero to do with it. Even if you were old enough to vote for those legislators who voted to pass those acts chances are you would have voted for a Democratic Senator and congressman and thus more likely for someone who voted against it.

I'm sure as a well educated liberal you are aware LBJ passed those acts by getting a much larger majority of REPUBLICAN VOTES. Over 80% of Republicans voted for civil rights versus 60% of Democrats.

Perhaps you can explain the problem post-68 liberals have with LBJ? It's a supreme irony this President, arguably the most able legislator of the last century, who passed the most consequential legislation of the last 70 years, is reviled by modern liberals.

The fact you have to go back 40 years and 70 years to find something you think you can brag about is a great example of why your party can't win elections Now. This is why George Clooney feels a restoration is needed for the term liberal and until that restoration is completed why Kerry and every other serious Democrat will run away from the term.

How this for serious; Jimmy Carter in 1976, after Watergate, is the last Democrat to get more than 50% of the vote. Otherwise you'd have to go back to 64.

jj

Read the suskind article but am not especially impressed. The exact same stuff was written about Reagan and we still have a ton of liberals ready to swear on a stack of bibles Ronny's senility started in the 1st term. This is what bitter partisanship does to people.

George is not Bill Clinton. He's not a rocket scientist nor is he a wonk. But he's obviously a lot smarter than his political opposition and has been incredibly successful surprising people certain of their own superior intelligence. I enjoy musing on the multitude of ironies that surround politics. Like people who've lost 4 consecutive elections to George W. Bush remaining steadfast in their opinion the man is as dumb as a rock.

Clinton is of course full of ironies. I suppose we have to go back rather far to find a President with the intellectual capacity of Bubba. On top of that a pretty decent speaker, very good in one-on-one sessions and in press conferences. Yet he made so many bad decisions. How was Arafat able to play him for such a total sap? He got Yasir a nobel peace prize never realizing the terrorist never has any intention of making peace. At the same time GWB knew this immediately. All of Clintons decisions in the middle east led to disaster. The con man was conned. Consider that during Clintons term the most despised man in Israel, if not the world, was Areil Sharon. According to Clinton and Holbrook and Albright Sharon was the terrorists and Arafat the peacemaker. Yet their decisions ensured Ariel Sharon would control of the peace process under his terms and Arafat would spend the last two years of his life asking Sharon permission to flush the toilet.

It's thanks to GWB we now have a fairly safe Israel with a booming economy building a security fence that will provide the Palestinains with their own state and protect the jews. Israel is very well positioned in a post 9/11 world using their security and defense expertise to vastly expand their trade arrangements. Seems other people are worried about terrorism as well. It's not even close to what Bill has planned. So much for the IQ.

LBJ said that, by signing the Civil Rights legislation, the Democratic Party would lose the south for a generation.

LBJ said a lot of things. At some point Northern elitists will quit the references to sotherners as crackers and actully start winning elections without 3rd party candidates helping. Obviously that won't be anytime soon.

Dean is fairly representive of Northerners. Some of his best friends we blacks. Except he didn't have any black friends. But he did like them maid.

"There is not one single sound basis to be pro-Bush. None.

Doesn't it just suck 62M Americans said the exact opposite a short while ago in the only poll that counts?
Posted by: rdw"

Only sensible thing you've said in this whole thread, rdw! It does suck, and each sentient one of them regrets it.

rdw, it is clear that you don't know dick about the South.

My Momma always said, "Son, if ya can't be smart, be persistent."

Son, if ya can't be smart, be persistent.

It's ok if you're not smart. But you at least should have people working for you who can say "sir, there's a brick wall there. So don't run into it." But Bush's advisors all tell him that if he gets enough of a running start, he can crash his head through the brick walls.

Ergo, we now have a brand new 51st state in the middle of the Middle East and we wear a huge "Kick Me" sign on our backs there. We muzzle the chief climate change scientist at NASA and make him answer to a 24-year-old who never graduated college. We borrow a half a trillion dollars of debt every year, with a budget full of pork, pretending that if you love America enough, it will all go away. We hire a former Arabian Horse Association/advance man/ flunkie to head our Emergency Management preparedness during our vaunted war on terror.

Just a few examples. Like I said, I hope the adults will be driving the train soon. But I think people are starting to realize the situation--which is why the president is down there with Nixon and Bush Sr., tied for the bottom of the barrel at 29%.

His only hope is to find another war, which he's in the process of doing.

"Not smart" is meant in a relative sense, of course. You should at least be able to read the papers, and not have to have your national security advisor read them to you.

jj

the 1:04 post wasn't me.

If that NASA scientist was muzzled why is he so famous? Only a liberal could listen to someone speaking on network TV complaining about not being heard and actually take them seriously.

The adults are driving the train. If you want to change the direction you've got to win elections. The fact is losing to GWB was an extraordinary setback for post-68 liberals and you will never recover.

You cannot restore Western Europe or the UN. They've been disgraced beyond rehabilitation. American investors are simply not looking toward Europe. Our business interests will determine where our diplomacy and military are focused and that's Asia.

You simply cannot reverse that nor is it likely the Europeans can change and reverse it themselves. They in fact are following GWB a bit more closely than you think. The Clinton team and all of Western Europe were dead wrong on Arafat. They all know it. Israel has been given carte blanche to set the borders themselves if the Palestinians refuse to deal seriously. We have a new roadmap and time table and it ends before GWB leaves office. The security fence will be built. It's just a matter where. That will define the border.

The Israeli economy has had it's best 3-yr run in decades by dramatically improving trade capitalizing on their expertise in security and technology. They are perfectly positioned for the post 9/11 world. Sharon has defeated terrorism. The Palestinian arabs will remain fully isolated for at least another generation, probably two. Interestingly, the 20% of the Israeli population that is Arab has no desire to re-align with the Palestinians. They are free and economically prosperous. The terrorist bombs killed them just as quickly. Plus they grow more prosperous every day while the residents of Gaza live in hell.

The adults have the big picture. GWB knows these polls are utterly meaningless. Truman has much lower polls and in a recent ranking of the Presidents he was 7th. GWB is going to be ranked primarily on the GWOT and we are winning decisively. He's going to continue to focus there.

It does suck, and each sentient one of them regrets it.

They don't regret picking GWB over Kerry. Kerry's polls were even lower. Liberals are bitter and they should be. The party is a mess. You owned Congress for 40 years and blew it. How bad is it your candidate refuse to allow himself to be identified as a liberal?

The party is a mess.

You should read the newspapers. Heck, you should read this blog you're commenting on. Delay is doing fine. Libby is doing fine. Goss is doing fine. Foggo is doing fine. Abramov is doing fine. Cunningham is doing fine. Rumsfeld is doing fine. Feith is doing fine. Wolfowitz is doing fine. Ney is doing fine. Powell is doing fine. Wilkerson is doing fine. Just a sec, gotta take a breath...

Whitman is doing fine. O'Neill is doing fine. Luttig is doing fine. Sorry, gotta stop. My doctor worries about my carpal tunnel...

Nope. No problems here. Nosiree. It's a good time for conservatives.

the 1:04 post wasn't me.

Yeah, but you're still not smart.

JJ

Delay IS doing fine. He resigned to keep the seat in hands GOP and make a ton of money on the lecture/book writing circuit.

Libby IS doing fine. He's working for a think tank maing triple his former salary, writing a book and his defense is fully funded. He's going to supoena half of Washington with the funds provided to him for that purpose. After he's cleared he's join the $15K a pop speaking tour after Delay.

Cunningham is where he belongs and fortunately his seat will stay GOP. Wolfowitz had the dream job he's always wanted and Colin Powell is living the good life.

Speaker of the house Denny Hastert is terrific. You don't have a speaker. Nor will you anytime soon. Senate Majority leader Frist is doing fine. You don't have a majority ergo no majority leader. GWB and Dick are doing just fine and thankfully so are recent Supreme Court appointees John Roberts AND Samuel Alito.

JJ,

Forgot about Rummy. He's already the most consequential defense secretary since Marshall. The man is on top of the world. He came back to transform the defense department because that's what he wanted to do. At age 73 he's hardly concerned about over the opinions of a few has been generals. He has on his record two of the greatest invasions in history and leads the finest military force ever assembled.

Nothing better exemplifies the differences betwen liberals and conservatives than Rummy and Colin Powell. Liberals are stunned that of the two Colin would be the one fired. Conservatives wanted him out all along. Once he served his purpose at the UN he had to stop the leaks or go. Since the leakers were his staff he had to go. That's OK. He's the best speaker in the world. He can make $100K a pop.

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