not so simple ... it would require at LEAST a 386 processor to try and link phone numbers with names and addresses.

One might ask if the records are truly anonymous, how could they be used to find an individual?

Haven't worked in a public library in a while, but do they still have the good old reverse directories? Don't even need a password to a database...

Why does the Post give this stuff space? For the same reason they rushed out an overnight poll designed to show America doesn't care about the issue in the first place.

get real. the washington post is desperately trying to manage public perception on this.

i've posted this elsewhere, but what the hell:

i don't buy the wapo/abc poll results at all -- they don't correspond to previous polling on wiretapping/national security issues. and, keep in mind the story was breaking yesterday as people were going to work; the poll was taken last night. how informed were the respondents -- my guess is not much. i think the real purpose of this poll was to shape public perception. the a.m. shows led with the results and it was referred to repeatedly throughout the day's broadcasts. and, it was positioned very squarely on the front page of the wapo's site in very large script for the entire day, and only early this evening moved down. that never happens, as headlines are shifted as news develops.

this has a collection of previous polling:

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

another development is russell tice, the former nsa worker who is scheduled to testify next week that the nsa spying is actually much worse than people can imagine.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05...awful-activity/

Listed phone numbers can be "googled" ... it's that easy.

You have to love the last line of the author ID, though:

"He has no official knowledge of the program in question."

The Post could use this kind of wonderful honesty on the op-ed page more often:

"The author is just regurgitating talking points that came over from Ken Mehlman. Wasn't that obvious?"

"The author hasn't actually read anything about the issue at hand, just filled in the blanks in a template that begins, "Both parties are missing the real solution to XXXX. Partisan fighting should not stand in the way of an honest conversation about XXXX."

"The author served as blah blah in the Defense Department from 2001 to 2005, and this op-ed is an attempt to make the next President overlook that fact."

They act like they've never heard of 411.com.

Well, sure someone COULD do the reverse phone directory thing, if you're paranoid enough to believe that that could actually happen.

I don't believe these evil spy people exist. I believe that the more someone can do something wrong in utter secrecy, the less likely it is to happen. I think they realize that if they did so, they would feel incredibly guilty about how they were taking advantage of the situation, and just couldn't live with themselves.

4. Does it matter that the telcos took out customer names and addresses? No. Phone numbers themselves are treated as personally identifiable information in American law, such as under the federal Privacy Act. The reason is that the NSA can instantly match the phone numbers back to subscribers using widely available services. It won’t work for the telcos to say: “We temporarily took out customer names, knowing that the NSA could put them back in moments later.”

As a technical matter, it would be easy to encode the telephone numbers provided to law enforcement officials, and require a warrant to decode, and therefore de-anonymize, the number. The trick is (i) to make sure that the encoding happens before the data leave the telephone company, and (ii) to make sure that the entity with the decoding key is answerable to the courts and not the executive branch.

Now, the question is, do we believe that's what they're doing?

Well, I've not read all the material, but let's at least have open minds folks. I'm not saying this is how it worked, but one can easily anonymize the information. Telephone numbers are replaced by pseudo-random numbers that are generated by the Telcos, replacing actual numbers. The Telco maintains the mapping. The data that is delivered then contains all the interconnections but the end points (telephone numbers) are identified differently.

If I was developing a data mining system, and wanted to try it out, without having access to the actual data of numbers, I'd want to have something as described above.

If one finds a pseudo-random number of interest, one could then pursue if further. Have they? I don't know.

I don't like what I'm hearing in general about this program, but the data CAN be anonymized.

The Post has this stuff because the NSA program has been successful - they have found the information they need from monitoring phone calls to blackmail the publishers and editors.

Anyone else have a better explanation?

You overestimate the intelligence of Bushistas. They believe their own shit.

They don't need to convince you and me - they just need to convince a judge. Judges can be easily convinced of all sorts of moronic things if they really want to be.

Look, it's simple: The WaPo is atoning for Watergate by abbetting the betrayal of our constitutional rights. Don't you people know anything about newspapering? It'll be a long time before any of you get invited to one of Sally Quinn's parties.

linda >"...another development is russell tice, the former nsa worker who is scheduled to testify next week that the nsa spying is actually much worse than people can imagine..."

Having been around electronics since before J.F.K. was POTUS & having once worked for a major private telecommunications organization providing "mission critical" services to military organizations at a high level (stars on sholders etc) I CAN IMAGINE A LOT that can be done with this technology so don`t bother to go down the hysteria route because it does NO GOOD

As much as the Bush Handlers, Inc. crowd disgusts me I must say that ANYONE that thinks this type of stuff started w/them has their head (to be polite) in the sand

And best of luck to Mr. Tice, I`m hopin he really spills the beans on this

If the capability exists it WILL be used no matter the politics of the group of good ole frat rats in office

WAKE THE FUCK UP !!!

"Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know." - M. King Hubbert

What does the government learn by discovering that one throwaya cell phone called another throwaway cellphone?

Wingers are going to throw a rod, though this is totally obvious to normal people.

Poll: Clinton outperformed Bush

(CNN) -- In a new poll comparing President Bush's job performance with that of his predecessor, a strong majority of respondents said President Clinton outperformed Bush on a host of issues.

The poll of 1,021 adult Americans was conducted May 5-7 by Opinion Research Corp. for CNN. It had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Respondents favored Clinton by greater than 2-to-1 margins when asked who did a better job at handling the economy (63 percent Clinton, 26 percent Bush) and solving the problems of ordinary Americans (62 percent Clinton, 25 percent Bush).

On foreign affairs, the margin was 56 percent to 32 percent in Clinton's favor; on taxes, it was 51 percent to 35 percent for Clinton; and on handling natural disasters, it was 51 percent to 30 percent, also favoring Clinton.

---

Hehe.

What the hell is it going to take to wake complacent America the hell up to the criminal activities of this administration? the citizens of any other nation would be taking to the streets instead of rolling over and taking the screwing of a lifetime.

This deserves a repeat:

on taxes, it was 51 percent to 35 percent for Clinton

BB: Too bad we can't make the font two inches high for that last point, huh?

Can't anonymize given a one to one correspondence between real phone numbers and anonymized phone numbers. Also you have more than one phone company to compare. Trivial matching problem. Also you must preserve the one to one match for the the data to be useful.

Since the anonymized thingy has been dealth with, I think we should consider his hypothetical about Mohammad calling A, and A calling B, and B calling C, and C calling Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. There is a more efficient method for identifying all of these people. It's called getting a warrant to wiretap Atta. Listen in on every conversation he has, and then, if necessary, wiretapping suspicious people he talks to. And so on. This is much more efficient than hooking up to some jumbo mega-data-tron and finding some vague and possible connection to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Of course, you have to know who Mohammad Atta is first, and you have to be willing to actually investigate the guy. Traditional investigatory practice takes hard work, but it's almost always more effective than high-tech gimmickry.

I don't like this.

Once again, I detect the foul stench of Rove.

Once again, we hear about "Bad Thing X" - only we hear just enough to make Bush look bad. Then we hear conflicting facts, and gradually more and more gets revealed. . .

Much like Rathergate.

I wonder who they're gearing up to burn on this? It's not like there's any prominent liberal media figures left.

In any case - I'm going to reserve judgement until I hear the facts on this case. (and, of course, we'll never really know the real facts) - oh fuckitall.

There is one sure way to put a stop to this bullshit. Demand the publication of the anonymizer function.

If they want to tell you it's classified, you will have a parade of highly respected and well-qualified cryptographers coming forward to tell you how much horseshit that means it necessarily must be.

If they actually have an anonymizer function they're willing to admit to using, then it will be even more comical, as that same parade of cryptographers proceeds to make a mockery of the government's arguments.

Which rocket scientist thought up this bullshit about an anonymizer? That's almost as rich as Rush Limbot going on and on this morning about how all telephone system signaling events are public domain and that Americans have no reasonable expectation that their call histories are private. Want to have a pen register/trace slapped on your daughter's boyfriend's phone? No problem, according to Rush. You have a right to be able to buy that information on the open market!

This is some quality surrealism, this is.

Traditional investigatory practice takes hard work, but it's almost always more effective than high-tech gimmickry.
Posted by: Elrod on May 13, 2006 at 1:46 AM | PERMALINK

More effective at what?

You're assuming that the goal is to catch terrorists.

The goal is to con NSA procurement guys into buying tens of billions of dollars of Chinese-manufactured hardware, using money borrowed from China, laundered and funnelled into the pockets of partners in NSA contractor agencies, who then divert a certain percentage towards bribing the likes of Duke not-so-Cunningham. Then, these guys take their money to Barbados and retire, the taxpayers end up defaulting on their loans, and the Chinese take over. And the apparatus to be used to control the US population once they own us, is already in place in the form of a giant info-sucking machine.

Kevin: "Why does the Post give space to this obvious agitprop?"

Well, clearly, the WaPo doesn't want to stray too far from the bosom of the Bush administration. After all, Bush still has quite a few months left in his term and the WaPo doesn't want to alientate Bush and thereby lose the warm, cozy benefits that accrue from stroking the Lords of Power.

Cyan is right; similar "masking" techniques are used for, e.g., test and developent in finacial instittutions. If the NSA wanted refine their algorithms without the real data, they could conceivably do that. However, it's incredulous, given the rationale, that they would do so.

Global Citizen >"...the citizens of any other nation would be taking to the streets instead of rolling over and taking the screwing of a lifetime."

Oh puleeese

I don`t see any such marching anywhere on Spaceship Earth & I DO see plenty of said screwing going on all over said planet & for decades it has been happening

I am sick and tired of such posturing & want ACTION, ACTION, ACTION & not in 2012 when the saucers of heaven come down to make it all OK

Get OFF THE DIME folks & quit posturing !

No more frat rats & no more hocus pocus "elections"

SHUT THE GAME DOWN !

Don`t participate !

"...We don't have news, we have stories inspired by current events..." - Stirling Newberry

Re: the anonymizer -

This sounds a lot like the controversey over Carnivore back in the 1990's.

Originally, the system was called Omnivore, because it just grabbed everything. But they couldn't use that, due to privacy concerns (more likely due to legality concerns). So the FBI developed the successor system, Carnivore, which still stored everything it tapped, but in encrypted form, so that only with a warrent for a particular subset of the data, can they get in and view what they needed.

There was still the concern that even a minimally clever operator could get more data out of Carnivore than was allowable by law. So Carnivore was retired, and replaced with some other unspecified commercial system. (best educated guesses were Verisign's law-enforcement compliance product line - look up Verisign's website, and do a search on CALEA). I think the selling point was that the data not covered by the warrant was not in the hands of law enforcement - it was in the hands of the commercial vendor, and only the salient data would be handed over to law enforcement.

This is a very important detail that's left out of all the discussions on this NSA deal so far. maybe they've got a list of phone numbers culled from other sources (cell phone address books from captured al qaeda?). I don't know. But I do think that it's important not to get too fired up about something when not all the facts are known. Remember Plame? We thought they broke the law by blabbing classified information. Bush witheld the little detail that he declassified her. (thus, making it technically legal, even though he did lie and mislead, and even though it was a shitty thing to do, and even though, in the process one or more of his staffers got caught in lies).

All I'm saying is - we don't know all the facts, and it's silly to rail against speculation. That's probably by design. And it's not being a wuss or a DLC suck-up or a "moderate" by reserving judgement at this juncture. It's just being prudent. Of course, if it turns out they broke the law - using a liberal interpretation, then of course the people responsible should be arrested, tried, and sentenced harshly. (I'm not anti death penalty. Especially not for white-collar criminals). Is that sufficiently radical? Am I anti-establishment enough? Am I "down" enough? Sorry. I'm just sick of seeing everyone play into the hands of the same damn info-warfare propaganda manipulation scheme they've been playing for the past 6 years.

Databases? We already have one: Google. If your phone number is listed, type it into Google and see what happens.

Technically you could create a database of phone numbers... And then throw away the actual phone numbers.

But no, even though it's possible, I still don't really like it.

Maybe it's a good tool. But we don't have laws covering it, and we should drag it out into the light of day... At least the methods - because we need to have our checks and balances.

This administration is very secretive and does most of its work out of sight of the public or press. Turn the light on their activities and they scurry into the corners, call us unpatriotic and raise the 9/11 flag of fear.

If you are screwing the country I guess that would be a good reason to make everything a secret. Anyone want to bet that on his Monday prime time "address" to the public Dubya will remind us how he has single handedly saved us from the terrorists by taking away our rights.

Its amazing that these chickenhawks, who never fought in a war, were so eager to get us into a war that their generals warned them against. I guess Carl Rove must have told Dubya that "no wartime President has ever lost an election."

Who said Dubya was stupid?

Kevin, by anonymized (tm) we mean the entire database was entered into the mainframe, the mainframe was actively overwritten with unrelated files of relatively random information (i.e. video from our network of bedroom cams or tens of millions of medical records), and then the database was analyzed. There is absolutely no way we can connect output of the phone call analysis to actual people. And before you ask, we do not incorporate information from 10s of other commercial and government databases in the phone call analysis.

E&P has fun little profile of Leslie Cauley (writer of the USAToday piece). She's been covering telecom beat for 20 years and must have decided to followup on that earlier story re the AT&T "special room".

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002501824

Mossyback: You can easily anonymize. If all telephone companies provided their raw data to a third party, and the third party passed all telephone numbers through an encryption process, all unique numbers, whether from telco A or B, would encrypt to the same output: they would correlate. If the encryption key is kept secret with the third party, decryption would--I believe--be impossible.

T.R. Elliot,

1) Phone numbers are unique
2) Characters within phone numbers are 0 through 9
3) Phone numbers have a fixed length of 10 digits
4) Not all posible iterations of 3 digit prefixs are valid area codes and not all 10 digit numbers are a valid phone number.
5) You know at least your own phone number and those of your aquantances.

Easy to crack.

Mossyback: I can create an encruption scheme that produces an enormous and unique pseudorandom number from each input phone number. The phone number would not be 10 digits, because the international area code must also be included. Before encrypting, I randomize the digits within the phone number itself.

In addition, I can create the following scheme. Seed a pseudorandom number generator. Start the process of anonymizing phone numbers. Pick one. Anonymized? Yes. Go to next. No? Pick next pseudorandom number. Before starting this process, randomly sort the phone numbers. They are in no order.

The third party now has a mapping from phone numbers to pseudorandom numbers. You cannot go backwards. It is impossible. There is no information at all in the pseudorandom numbers. There is only a mapping that exists with the third party.

There is nothing to crack except physically breaking into the third party processing facility.

I tried that Google thing. Three US numbers I call from Australia on and off.

Format (including quote marks): "(123) 456 7890"

That's all. No other search info.

All three came up with reverse directory information - within one second: names, map locations, addresses... the whole kit and kaboodle.

Be afraid.

Don't know how things came to this pass, Google-wize, but you'd better tell your Republican waverering friends: the NSA knows everything.

T.R. Elliot,

You will end up with a set of large unique numbers that corresponds one to one with another set of smaller unique numbers. You also must preserve the relationships between these numbers, who called who. Who called who is the point of the database. At least some of these relationships are available unencrypted, perhaps the ones on your phone bill. Check out how WWII codes were broken by finding repetitive information. NSA's job is to break codes. I suspect they're good at it.

I agree that there are encryption algorithms that can be used to pretty effectively annonymize the data. That much is simply mathematical fact.

The problem is that, if you really did provide the government with truly annonymized data, it wouldn't be able to use it. What's the difference between you calling your grandmother every month and a terrorist calling his bankroller every month? Absolutely nothing if you have annonymized data.

Is there such a thing as a 'terrorist pattern' of phone calls? I doubt it, at least to the extent that millions of ordinary Americans wouldn't also be using the same patterns.

When you can correctly identify a single point in the pattern as a point of interest, THEN it becomes interesting. And that only happens if you know which point is which.

Anonymized data or non-anonymized data. What does the NSA do with this information? Pattern analysis? Pattern recognition?

How does a "planning a family reunion" pattern differ from a "planning a terrorist attack" pattern?

Lots of cross country calls to set it up. Maybe all calls to a single point of contact. Possible international calls and dealing with passports & visas. Withdrawal of cash. Transfers of money between individuals. Coordination of supplies. Getting room and rental car reservations. Purchasing of airline and other transportation tickets. Frequency of calls increasing as the date approaches to coordinate travel plans.

Much of this can be detected by just looking at who you're calling. Combine this with email, financial and reservation databases. What's the difference between a reunion pattern and an attack pattern when you're only looking at the pattern??

OK, the recognition of this pattern would allow our security forces to get a warrant for further investigation to look at the content of all these communications to discover who's going to a family reunion and who's planning a terrorist attack. Resulting, of course, in a permanent file.

So what's the ratio of reunions to attacks? 1,000 to 1, 10,000 to 1, 1,000,000 to 1?

How many innocent families will be investigated to capture a single terrorist? Assuming the terrorists don't change their pattern.

What would the point of a database that could tell you what numbers political opponents^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hterrorists are calling, but not any names or addresses associated with those numbers? I wouldn't feel safer at all if I knew that the NSA could call bin Laden's cell phone, but had no idea that it was bin Laden's and not Joe Piscapo's....

Actually, this isn't as unreasonable as it sounds at first glance.

First off, let's assume that after encryption certain information remained unencrypted:

1. All foreign phone numbers
2. Domestic area codes
3. Phone type (business vs. residential vs. public)

(Note: I don't think there's any privacy obligation to encrypt the foreign phone numbers - if I don't know it was you who called your grandmother in Pakistan you can't claim your privacy was invaded and US law is much less interested in the privacy of people outside the US).

Now if you take that DB, throw in what you know about phone numbers used by terrorists, and do some heavy duty mining you could probably find some interesting things.

For example, if US terrorist X uses a pay phone to call his contacts in Saudi Arabia and also uses that phone to call other people who he also calls from his home phone you might be able to link him to the network. If you find out that he often calls someone else who has also made calls to the same numbers that were also called using another pay phone that called other foreign terrorist contacts you may be onto a network.

Once you have enough mined information you get a warrant to get the actual numbers and start rolling up the network.

Not sure that's what they were doing, but if they were then I think it's good innovative intelligence / police work that invades people's privacy a lot less than, say, traditional surveillance.

Like others in this thread, I'm amused at the bit at the end: "The writer...was deputy homeland security adviser and deputy assistant to the president until May 2004.

It's a kind of double- (or maybe even triple-) dipping. The WaPo of course gives space in its actual news stories for the Administration quotes defending the latest abuse. Then they give space on their op-ed page to some partisan flack who's strongly connected to the Administration, who writes a nothing-to-worry-about piece. And usually Fred Hiatt will come along and write an editorial explaining why we, the people, shouldn't be that concerned about why the Bush Administration is torturing people, or indefinitely detaining Americans without charges, or gathering all sorts of information about us all.

One would almost think the WaPo editorial page staff was in the tank or something.

The ex-head of the old East German STASI police spy agency, Markus Wolf, stated before the German parliament that the STASI spied on most of the population because they LOVED THEM!

Are you traitors suggesting that your president hates you!

Expect a visit from the department of Homeland Security soon...real soon.

Having worked in telecom, call detail record have no names or addresses, until they are concatenated with the billing information in the phone cos. databases. NSA is getting pure switch information. However, that makes this no less insidious. As Kevin asserts, it is a simple matter to ascribe ownership to the originating or terminating number, using publicly available databases....

This really is absurd. They are allegedly using the data to look for suspicious call patterns. How do you look for these without knowing to whom the numbers belong? I picture NSA watchers scratching their heads at a million-page printout of call activity between numbers in Michigan and numbers in Brooklyn—both known Muslim hangouts! Now what? I've also read wingnuts who say that the purpose of the NSA program is to link terrorist phone numbers to the people calling them. So how do you know which numbers are "terrorist phone numbers?" Is there a Terrorist White Pages?

Has anyone yet asked or answered how on earth this program as described—simply databases of numbers and call activity—could help identify or capture a real live (and, by necessity, shit stupid) terrorist?

I'm equally dismayed to discover that anomymize is a word. I prefer namelessed or discompopulated.

It should be fairly obvious why the Wapo gives space to this deceptive 'anonymized' data story and prints a skewed poll from Richard Morin when you watch the Sunday talk fests tomorrow and hear "but Senator Dem, the American people overwhelmingly approve of these programs" and "but Senator Dem, these programs are anonymized". And when questioned Senator Dem will just sit and sputter in vague agreement instead of challenging the basis of the question and why the interviewer didn't do his homework in realizing the bias underlying the question.

Wapo polling director Richard Morin is a rightwing nut. But leave it to wapo's online columnist Froomkin to take it from there.
From Froomkin's Friday column:

Here's the language from the Washington Post/ABC News poll :

"What do you think is more important right now -- (for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy); or (for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats)? Sixty-five percent said investigate threats; 31 percent said privacy.

"It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?" Sixty-three percent said acceptable, 35 percent said unacceptable.

But aside from creating an unfair and false conflict between national security and privacy, these questions simply aren't the most appropriate ones right now. How about asking something like this:

* Do you feel you know enough about how this program works to reach a definitive conclusion?

* Do you think the public should know more about this program and others like it?

* Should the government be able to launch programs like this in secret?

* Do you think President Bush should have asked for approval from the courts or Congress before taking this action?

* Do you trust the Bush administration not to abuse a program like this, when there is no independent oversight?

I have some concerns about this database. One is how about there not being any independent (of the adminstrative branch) oversight of the program; e.g., some branch of the judiciary that checks to make sure that the database is used exclusively for the stated purpose of tracking down terrorist links. Even those who think the program is necessary ought to see the wisdom of establishing independent oversight. Any government program that can be abused eventually will be abused (if it hasn't already). This administration especially has shown itself not to be worthy of acceptance of "just trust me". At the absolute minimum congress must insist on independent oversight of all these types of programs.

A second concern is whether or not the program is illegal - on broad constitutional grounds, general statutory grounds, or not permitted by a specific legal constraint. Congress needs to have a *real* investigation of this question.

Another concern is a much broader one. Are these kinds of programs, that at a minimum intrude into the privacy of American citizens, a proportionate response to the threat? I think it is likely that the reason there is as much acceptance of these programs as there is, is because there is a judgment that the threat is so great that it is worth giving up privacy and freedoms to be safe from the threat. I think that judgment is inconsistent with the level of risk we accept in other aspects of our lives so as to keep privacy and freedom intact. Here is an example to illustrate: every year many thousands of people are killed by drunk drivers. Yet we accept this risk without resorting to having government programs that track the drinking patterns of individual Americans (which could theoretically be collected and "anonomyzed"). We could save literally tens of thousands of lives within a decade if we just gave up some of our privacy and freedoms. Many people seem to think that loss of privacy and freedom to protect us against a foreign threat is acceptable but are much less willing to do so for a threat that is in the form of dangerous activities from other citizens. I think that judgment is inconsistent and wrong.

I just want to point out that I hadn't read ecoast's post until after I posted my post - evidently he posted while I was composing my post. So, the fact that we both commented on the lack of oversight and not wanting to accept "trust me" from this administration is purely a coincidence of clearheaded thinking.

Can we please cut the crap?

That's a joke, right? This is an unedited blog.

Here's something even more troubling for you brain dead conspiracy-minded liberals. Try Google Earth someday. This is a program available to the public and with an address, I could tell you what color your patio furniture is. Now if that is available to the public, imagine what the government is able to do.

Electronic data intercept, or as Clinton called it, Echelon, should be the least of your worries.

Of course TK and ecoast are right.

Do you really trust this administration to use the information in a limited way? How about wisely? Do you really think Dick Cheney has your best interests at heart? What about the borrow and spend congress? The guys in the pockets of big business make you feel like they will keep the President in check?

Well Kevin, you have once again made clear why you failed as an engineering student and at marketing technical products. You just don't have the math.

Let me explain to you idiots what the OBVIOUS purpose must be for the creation and maintenance of a database of all telephone calls made within, to , and from these United States:

Terrorist suspect Clem Caddidlehopper is identified by the authorities.

The first question that is asked (and must be answered) is: who does this guy socialize with? That question would be answered by pulling his phone records (no warrant required), and identifying his conversational counterparties. If a particular counterparty is known to the authorities and is non-supicious (like the gas company), well and good. But unknown counterparties must be researched -- and their network of associations researched as well -- again, without having to get warrants (these are business records!)

Gee, all this takes time and manpower.

Well, what if we could access a database of all of these call records to immediately determine the networks and crosspoints of interest? Wouldn't this help our intelligence and law enforcement folks to better do their jobs to protect us?

And you wouldn't need to worry about what numbers were assigned to which names and addresses unless and until they come up in a call pattern.

So, our very smart intelligence folks at the NSA got together with the Justice Department and figured out that all of this was legal (and made compelling sense) and then set about to try to make us safer.

And all you morons can do is to remind as all why the Democrat Party should be kept FAR from the reigns of power.

"Has anyone yet asked or answered how on earth this program as described—simply databases of numbers and call activity—could help identify or capture a real live (and, by necessity, shit stupid) terrorist?"

--R. Porofatto

There is no doubt that there are sophisticated algorithms and heuristic or "artificial intelligence" routines that can ascertain patterns using "traffic analysis" and probit/ logit regression analysis routines. There exist statistical analysis techniques far beyond the average person's understanding, trust me.

However, the patterns the NSA may uncover may be "false positives" or things wholly unrelated to terrorism. And that is where the danger lies. For instance, what may pop up as an unusual calling pattern may be some guy calling his mistress from odd loacations, at odd times using odd originating numbers. Do we really want the NSA wasting our tax dollars chasing down extramarital affairs? The danger is that by casting such an extremely broad net, you gather in a lot of little fishes that have nothing to do with the ones you are after....

This is a massive, fascistic overreaction to a low-tech, low-level threat.

Terrorist suspect Clem Caddidlehopper is identified by the authorities

This is all being done prior to any terrorist being identified. This is a fishing expedition.

Well, what if we could access a database of all of these call records to immediately determine the networks and crosspoints of interest?

Simple, just go to the phone companies with a search warrant and ask for the records. Happens all the time.

And all you morons can do is to remind

The "morons" are the founding fathers. Try reading the constitution. Not everyone has blind
faith in the administration.

No Stephen, yours is an over exaggerated drama queen reaction to the off chance that a successful surveillance program will inadvertantly intercept the 1/10 of 1% of meaningless phone calls.

Did Echelon bother you Stephen? I would love to see your posts back in 1999-2000 when the Clinton admin. was operating this very same program. Please provide those posts for me so that I can see that your "outrage" is genuine.

How do you fell about Google Earth?

Hey let's talk polls shall we? I mean you guys are all firm believers in polls right? 63% of Americans polled have no problem with this program. End of debate right? If Bush's low poll numbers are proof positive that Americans no longer want him to be President than the 63% should be enough to convince you that this is a viable program.

End of debate.

I agree with Stephen Kriz on this one. Even though the switch data could be "anonymized," I suspect the Govt is receiving raw switch data with actual numbers.

A database of coded numbers calling other coded numbers with no linkage to any content. That's sooooooo useful. I'm surprised nobody has done it before.

z1a034d -> a3bn345 9:12 PM
z1a034d -> a3b3354 9:15 PM

On and on and on and on. Billions of calls. That's money well spent, alrighty.

So, we're faced with the prospect of extraordinarily intrusive spying or an dizzyingly-large, absolutely worthless pile of information that has cost apparently ~billion dollars to compile and massage.

Gosh, the Bush administration is such a change from our previous ones.

this should scare the bejesus out you:

The leader in the field of what is called "data mining," is a company, formed , called, "ChoicePoint, Inc," which has sucked up over a billion dollars in national security contracts.

Worried about Dick Cheney listening in Sunday on your call to Mom? That ain't nothing. You should be more concerned that they are linking this info to your medical records, your bill purchases and your entire personal profile including, not incidentally, your voting registration. Five years ago, I discovered that ChoicePoint had already gathered 16 billion data files on Americans -- and I know they've expanded their ops at an explosive rate.

They are paid to keep an eye on you -- because the FBI can't. For the government to collect this stuff is against the law unless you're suspected of a crime. (The law in question is the Constitution.) But ChoicePoint can collect if for "commercial" purchases -- and under the Bush Administration's suspect reading of the Patriot Act -- our domestic spying apparatchiks can then BUY the info from ChoicePoint. ...

And now ChoicePoint and George Bush want your blood. Forget your phone bill. ChoicePoint, a sickened executive of the company told us in confidence, "hope[s] to build a database of DNA samples from every person in the United States …linked to all the other information held by CP [ChoicePoint]" from medical to voting records.

And ChoicePoint lied about that too. The company publicly denied they gave DNA to the Feds -- but then told our investigator, pretending to seek work, that ChoicePoint was "the number one" provider of DNA info to the FBI.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/05/con06189.html

and if you think that's hyperbole, read this:

DNA of Criminals' Kin Cited in Solving Cases

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 12, 2006; Page A10

Cops would solve more crimes if they expanded their use of the nation's DNA fingerprinting system to test close relatives of known criminals, according to a research report that raises novel and difficult civil liberties issues.

The proposed crime-control strategy, already in growing use in Britain, is based on two central facts: Close relatives of criminals are more likely than others to break the law, research has shown, and, because those individuals are related, their DNA "fingerprints" will be similar. That suggests that if police find a crime-scene specimen with a DNA pattern close to -- but not exactly the same as -- that of a known lawbreaker, a relative of that known criminal may be the culprit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051100962.html

Jay the poll you are referring to is nothing more than a push poll. It is not valid.

Now eff off.

Hey Jay

Did the founding fathers take polls? Did they listen to them if they did?

No, the people who founded this country stood for the idea that no man is above the Law--Presidents included. That is what I was taught and that is where I will stand.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Spying on you or me without obeying the Constitution and the law is wrong. That is the end of the debate.

Thanks for clearing that up Chrissy. From now on please point out the polls that you deem valid........oh wait. I could probably guess. And your last sentence is certainly a fine example of liberal tolerance.

Jay, and I could probably guess you're a little neocon nitwit.

And I am sure Ron that you raised those same concerns in 1999 when Clinton adopted and initiated the Echelon program. Please provide for me your articles of concern from that time period so that I can sense the consistency of your concern as it relates to privacy.

btw, since you do have such a high level of concern re: unwarranted spying, please tell me your thoughts on Google Earth, where any Tom, Dick and Jane could tell you how many bicycles you have in your driveway. Imagine what the government is able to zero in on. And you think electronic intercept is intrusive? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhaha

Jay,

Like most of the people on this board, I'd die for my country. Would you die for your President?

Ron, I didn't mean to push you off of the edge. It's a short drive from liberalism to insanity and I am afraid you just took the trip. Come back Ron.

anonymizer...is that a new nasal decongestant?

It's a short drive from liberalism to insanity and I am afraid you just took the trip.

I can't argue with that, Jay. On the other hand, conservatives don't even have to get in the car to reach that destination.

The American people should immediately demand to see just WHO it is that the NSA has been targeting (if need be have an unbiased, non-partisan mediator filter out genuine cases of al queda terrorists if any). With all this domestic spying how many more terrorists have been caught? I suspect that a great and disproportionate amount of these cases are of Democrats and/or those whom Bush co hates (e.g. environmentalists) and other political enemies. Does anyone really believe that a President who has proven himself so dishonest and lawless will restrain hiself if given half a chance to dig up some dirt on his rivals???

I also suspect that this is just the tip of the proverbial iceburg.

I'm a lazy bum. I have nothing better to do on a Saturday morning than troll like a child.

I think I finally determined a morally equivalency here: the fact that they are savaging the Constitution for partisan purposes is just as bad as overtly lying about it. I demand the resignation of most of the executive branch.

The Washington Post is a shameful rag now. They were scooped and served by the USA Today??????? My God. They are gutless shills. And that poll? "Do you think the President should take a teenie-weenie bit of your right to privacy if it would preclude your being bombed into smitherings?" The lying from the media and this administration is so bad, I can't believe anything they say any more. The "good" economic news has almost always been run through a feel-good partisan filter. They quash studies on science and economics which refelct reality. They pander to the lowest common denominator of their formerly conservative base. If there is terrorist activity, it is harder and harder to believe they are not the authors of it--they seem to be the only benefactors. Fear equals power. They took FDR's famous ode to courage, and turned it on its ear. They are shameful and should be stopped by Congress if it is listening.

Kevin asks: "Why does the Post give space to this obvious agitprop?"

Note the multiple full-page ads for wireless and other telecomm services in each issue of the Post. Next question?

My point was simple and not insane. No President is above the law. No President should be given the unquestioning loyality of anybody. No one should die for their President. If a President wants to lead he cannot do it in an autocratic way. He has to lead by means of persuasion and example.

By definition "anonymized" can not "pinpoint individuals".

Nice try, Ron, but everything changed after 9/11.

Jay: you are just an enabler of people who are killing the country one freedom at a time--multiple freedoms on Friday afternoons. Hope that makes you happy, coming here and attacking patriots and telling folks not to worry about the camp and trains that are running outside of town. The party would never do such heinous things as that. The problem with a fascist admninistration is they know the day of reckoning will come. No matter how may brown shirts named Ray or Jay or Al. They can recruit only the simplest of minds and those minds tire with the paradoxical talking points they regurgitate. So that isn't just kool-aid and drool on your tunic.

And history ended with the fall of he Soviet Union? Right.

"No, the people who founded this country stood for the idea that no man is above the Law--Presidents included. "

My hero Thomas Jefferson was pretty good in obeying the declaration of war doctrine when he started fighting Islamic pirates.

John Adam had the Sedition Acts when he was shooting Frenchmen, very unconstitutional.

Abe Lincoln effectively suspended Habeas Corpus.

Wilson and Roosevelt did their unconstitutionals during war.

It as been done so much that is is almost common law that we expand the constitution in time of war.

Yeap and ABC's Martha Raddatz last night on PBS Washington Week, who's become a regular Judith Miller. I get so tried of watching so called journalist act as Whitehouse damage control instead of real jounralist.

I don't care what the polls say about people's opinion on subject as it appears be a carefull rig survey,and because with Bush's poll numbers are in the tank despite rigging, Pelosi shouldn't be ruling out impeachment. - It's just plain sickening to watching the MSM do this "save" Bush in a manner they never ever did to Americans viewers before Bush came to Whitehouse via 5 paritsan justices.

Keep calling it, Kevin! Anonymized--it's a lie, and it's not even a real word. Is it?? What idiocy!

Matt: there is no way to equate this sham President with the crises in other administrations. The root of Bush's disrepect for the law comes from a partisan bent heretofore unseen, and an abiding incompetence which has summoned crises up like the wind. This should have been an uneventful six-years. Can't rule out nuclear war next week. Yay for your side.

Cheryl: there is a desperation on the part of most media in covering Bush's tracks that is hard to read. They are either really on the public payroll (which has been proven in several instances) or have much to fear if reasonable government returns. Let me say it has been the wrong time for PBS/NPR fund drives. There is no point in supporting public broadcasting either if they continue to shill. We have corporate media for that.

An email I sent to Brookings, where Falkenreth resides as a foreign policy consultant:

Richard Falkenreth, who is apparently a scholar at Brookings' foreign policy program, insults the intelligence of those of us who are following this latest NSA phone call monitoring program by his use of the adjective "anonymized" when discussing individual phone numbers being collected and tracked by the hundred millions. A person's phone number is not "anonymized" - it is as personal as one's address, social security number, or any other individual data item that is linked directly and easily traceable to one's name and residence. "Anonymized" is a deliberately deceptive term that evades the issue at hand. If one is going to defend this program, do it honestly and forthrightly, but don't insult one's readers with an obviously bogus construct.

Of course the program is indefensible under current law, because to quote the Washington Post op-ed itself to which I refer : "The Telecommunications Act of 1934, as amended, generally prohibits the release of 'individually identifiable customer proprietary network information' except under force of law or with the approval of the customer." That obviously covers individual phone numbers and the records of calls to/from individual numbers under the intent and meaning of the law, while Mr. Falkenreth is apparently following the example of Humpty Dumpty and words merely mean what he wants them to mean in Wonderland fashion. No law or subpoena has been invoked, nor have customer approvals been sought, but phone records linked soley to my name are being data-mined. Falkenreth commends this illegality. I can live with his opinions, but I'd ask that he skip the glib assurance, tossing out a word like "anonymized" which is blatantly false.

I'm amazed when people who engage in this sort of double-speak are considered "scholars". I thought Brookings could do better than dish out Orwellian nonsense that I would expect from one of the apologists over at AEI or Heritage.

I think 'anonymizer' and 'anonymized' are real words.

An 'Anonymizer' is not a nasal decongestant spray as suggested above. It is a "feminine spray".

The word "anonymized" can be correctly used thusly: Anne C. and Michele M. showered and shaved and anonymized themselves into a stupor.

Matt

You name five instances in American history of which nobody is particularly proud and then trot out the old "Can I, daddy? Can I? Billy got to do it." That crap never worked for my kids, and it isn't going to work for a political apologist.

I worked in market research during my college days. There are many references available to cross reference telephone numbers to names and vice versa.

I also suspect that this is just the tip of the proverbial iceburg.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/12/19380/1332

Guess I was right.

I worked in market research during my college days. There are many references available to cross reference telephone numbers to names and vice versa.

Of course there are, librarians use them all the time.

Example: http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/

I guess that it depends upon who and what you fear most. I think that we live in a 1984 era. Peace is war, intrusive spying is protection, etc.
We have a President drunk with power, an executive branch full of incompetent political cronies, and a Congress that averts its gaze every time the President unilaterally changes the law (that's what a signing statement is, and we're averaging 3 per week). If FEMA couldn't deal with Katrina, how can we expect that NSA can use this more complex data in a constructive way? I think not. The CIA has been in the toilet for more than 10 years- putting a John Yoo with stars in charge of it is not the answer. I haven' t made phone sex calls, and I'm not a politician. If I were a politician opposed to the government, what are the chances that my phone records would be fished out? No wonder that they can’t catch bin Laden- they are putting all their money into building gigantic domestic databases. Venezuela has la lista, with the names of every person who signed the petition for Chavez’s recall election. We have the CIA-NSA-HSD- the same kind of crap.
Our incompetent Congress is interested only in their frequent flyer miles and still earmarking like heroin addicts. This Congress couldn't oversee a dogcatcher. How do you oversee the executive branch when it gets to decide what the law is?

I cheer Quest and I cheer Mark Twain who said that the only criminal class in this country is the US Congress. Don't Cry for me Argentina, at least you have hit bottom and started up. We haven't simply because most Americans jump every time that the corrupt government says terrorist danger. Eventually that response will fail and we'll have a change on the order of the Civil War. I mean US Civil War, not Iraq civil war.

It as been done so much that is is almost common law that we expand the constitution in time of war.

A war started by Bush which has no end.

Chrissy Where did you come from ? You're reminding me of Craigie and Amanada Marcotte at the same time.

If anyone thinks that Cheney hasn't handed over a huge list of names of political opponents, people who works for me, and reporters to see who have been speaken with whom, then I have a bridge I want to sell you. There maybe real intelligence to be gained from this information, but I am certain that the real purpose of this database is for Bush & CO to spy on his own people and his political opponents. I am also willing to bet that there is security at all on this data and we could look through the logs of the quires made to this dataase we would find that people who have no business looking at this infomation have ammussed and informed themselves.

"You name five instances in American history of which nobody is particularly proud.."

Not five random instaces, but almost all of our wars. Excepting the War of 1812, the Spanish American, almost all the wartime presidents do this. And they always get in a little trouble wen the war is over.

We might want to think about how we always get involved in wars.

Bush is the reason for the season of war, Herr Matt.
Much of these issues have been trumped up and parroted by a complicit press as cover for a corporate power grab. The biggest crisis facing America today is not a nebulous war without end (lest these idiots nuke people), but our fiscal insolvency as a nation and our utter dependence on a lethal petro-based economy. Bush is not tackling real issues when he violates our liberties, he is shadow boxing and kicking the electorate in its collective groin. Ouch. Its like raising short term interest rates to curb inflation when inflation is caused primarily by spiraling oil prices. It seems proactive, but really makes everything worse.

"Anonymized"? Is that a new word in Bushspeak?

Anyway, it is quite clear that Bush, the NSA, and their defenders believe that Americans' I.Q. is really low.

I and my friends call each other on a regular basis. I have routine weekly phone calls with one of them in particular most Saturday and Sunday mornings. That's a pattern right there, no? Now, if the geniuses at the NSA zero in on this particular pattern, they need to determine whether we are "bad guys". In other words, they have to find out our names, addresses, professional occupation, etc...To further determine whether my friend and I are "bad guys", they also have to listen in on our conversations, right?

From now on, every time I call that particular friend, I will pepper the conversation with disparaging comments about Bush, his rogue administration, and the morons at the NSA.

If I don't come back on this blog in the next few weeks, you can safely assume that I will have been sent to Gitmo.

"anonymized" is a regularly used (though awkward) word in medical research. Not sure if it originated there.

They get a big batch of records and strip out names, addresses, phone numbers (heh), even dates sometimes assigning each person a number then analyze the data.

Of course, as others have pointed out, this word is being used incorrectly when the whole point of the analysis is to identify individuals.

I take your point: current practices make anonymized data more theory than fact.

However, if there were a legal process that allowed a court to allow anonymous data to become identifiable, by having the Feds or other government agency prove there was such a need, and if there were huge penalties and laws that forbade any other translation from anonymous to identifiable, that would go a long way towards solving these privacy problems.

Stricter laws against marketing use of personal data (letting people decide where/when, not the marketers) also would help support such a legal process. Today it's the Wild West and consumers have little control over their electronic data.

So don't dismiss anonymization as a fraud. Done correctly, it could help solve a huge privacy problem.

Falkenrath is not the only person who hopes that someone somewhere hasn't figured out how easy it is to look up a number in the phone book these days (googling the number does indeed work).

From
www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/washington/13phone.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

"'There's a loophole,' said Mark Rasch, the former head of computer-crime investigations for the Justice Department and now the senior vice president of Solutionary, a computer security company. 'Records of phones that have called each other without identifying information are not covered by any of these laws.'"

OK so anyone want to hire a computer security consultant who thinks that there could be such a thing as "Records of phones that have called each other without identifying information" ???

Not only is the guy obviously lying, but he is confident that any potential clients will assume he is lying and not too stupid to live let alone protect them from hackers.

Kevin however is smart enough to protect his site from spammers and narcissists like me

"Your comment submission failed for the following reasons:

In an effort to curb malicious comment posting by abusive users, I've enabled a feature that requires a weblog commenter to wait a short amount of time before being able to post again. Please try to post your comment again in a short while. Thanks for your patience."

I am not a spammer. I just like to read my name in pixels.

Telephone records can be anonymised as noted above by mapping from telephone numbers to numbers so the NSA is told only the 100,577,321st phone on our list called the first phone on our list and not the phone numbers. There is one problem with this approach. To see who called whom it is necessary for the 3 cooperating phone companies to use the same master list so each would have to trust the other two to not give the NSA identifiers of customers. I am not sure they are allowed to be so trusting with private data.

More to the point, it seems clear that this was not done. Recall "with anonymized domestic telephone records — that is, records stripped of individually identifiable data, such as names and place of residence." Odd that "true phone numbers" isn't on the list that follows "such as" no ?

If the phone numbers had been replaced with identifiers which can't be tracked back to the phone numbers, someone, probably at a phone company, would have said so by now. It is not at all an operational detail which has to be kept from al Qaeda (why would they care) and it would be highly exculpatory.

Probably the best way to truly anonymize the data would be to run the phone numbers through a one-way hash function.

Worried about Google Earth? Buy or rent a place with lots of mature trees around it. Since the photos are aerial, your house won't be seen.

It'll keep your place cooler in the summer, too. And by the way--if you're worried about google, try zillow.com --it'll show you a picture of your house, tell you how many rooms it has, how many square feet, how much it's worth....

As Robet Waldmann points out, I doubt the data was "anonymized." (I hate that word). Just one point to the earlier comment by Jeffrey Davis: If the data is anonymized with random numbers, then some analysis could be performed if, for example, country codes were left on so that a call from country X always resulted in a sequence of calls spanning in the US, e.g. the call from country X says "let's bomb A" and then a sequence of calls go out from there.

I can't imagine how any of this is useful. Other than fattening the pockets of a few computer analysts and think tanks.

Yeah, anonymized. Just like Valerie Plame was anonymized by refering to her as "Wilson's wife". No one would ever be able to figure out who that was, right?

Re: T.R. Elliott

We've been told that there was no semantic information in the program. These are just numbers to numbers.

Like the Robert Redford character in "Three Days of the Condor" says, "Who'd think up such a program?" Forget the legal issues. Ignore them. This is an enromous program costing brazillians of dollars. Absent any semantic information (a transcription of the calls), what possible use would it be? X has called Y 300 times in a month. That's going to get the cavalry to the fort in plenty of time, for sure. Let others worry about the legality, I'll be over here in the corner crying, "Boondoggle." It screams of a way to funnel money to a contributor.

Thank god everyone in America only has one phone number! Imagine the dangers to Falkenrath's hypothetical if, you know, people actually used different phones to contact each other. It would be like the hypothetical didn't even make sense!

Did Echelon bother you Stephen? I would love to see your posts back in 1999-2000 when the Clinton admin. was operating this very same program. Please provide those posts for me so that I can see that your "outrage" is genuine.

Echelon complied with FISA. George Tenant testified in congress (not a few secret briefing to selected congressman) about Echelon.

How do you fell about Google Earth?

I don't have reasonable expectation of privacy
for things that occur outside my house in publicly viewable spaces.

jay:How do you fell about Google Earth?

Stephen:I don't have reasonable expectation of privacy
for things that occur outside my house in publicly viewable spaces.

And google earth is not a live real time feed. Its satelite photos taken years ago.

Echelon was, and is data mining. Nothing more, nothing less and is what is being done today albeit with a bit more scrutiny. You should also not expect privacy when using a cell phone or e-mail, even amateur radio heads can intercept any signal they want.

My point about Google Earth is that if that technology is available to the masses, imagine what the CIA or NSA has the ability to do. I think if we actually knew the breadth and depth of the governments ability to peer in on our day to day activities, we would all be shocked. Hell, everytime you use your debit card that transaction is recorded along with you personal information including address and banking numbers. Your privacy is much less secure than you realize.

Why does the Post give space to this obvious agitprop?

Your question contains its answer, Kevin.

Echelon was, and is data mining. Nothing more, nothing less and is what is being done today albeit with a bit more scrutiny

More scrutiny\safeguards is all we're asking for. Even if we can completely trust the current administration witht his progtram, whose to say that it won't be abused in the future ? There needs to checks and balances to protect from the
potential for abuse. Trust but verify.

You should also not expect privacy when using a cell phone or e-mail, even amateur radio heads can intercept any signal they want.

Doesn't make it any less illegal.

Mayhaps I'm oversimplifying, but for me, there are only two salient points: (1) the data is being analyzed for "national security purposes" so (2) by definition "they" have to be able to figure out, at some point in time, how to personalize the data in order to prevent the "threat" from becoming realized.

Where does this supposedly "anonymous" data collection end without it being an impermissible intrusion on my privacy? Especially when I have no opportunity to opt out.

Jay: Your privacy is much less secure than you realize.

Sure it is.

Because of Bush and conservatives like you who shamelessly violate the law and Constitution or urge violation of the law and Constitution in order to serve partisan interests.

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