Yeah!

Well done, Kevin.

Cut the crap, bitch!

Without getting too complicated, I don't think you can "test it in court" or do any of the other things that would completely convince liberals the programs are harmless without destroying the programs.

If that's the goal, fine. But be honest enough to put it out there.

And what about the ranking intelligence committee members? They've known about this program since the end of 2001, including a year in which the leaders of the committees were Democrats. The ranking Democrats seem awfully quiet again.

They going to try the "I hated the program but really couldn't say anything at the time" gag again?

There is a lot spin and crap being thrown by apologists like Hoekstra, one that also is worth pointing out is this one:

We suffered a setback Thursday when USA Today ran a front-page story alleging that the National Security Agency was collecting domestic phone records. This article hurt our efforts to protect Americans by giving the enemy valuable insights into the Terrorist Surveillance Program, which has been focused like a laser beam on Al Qaeda and its known associates.

The GOP apologists repeat this mantra everytime the President is exposed at having stepped over the line gathering information about thousands of innocent Americans. He presents not a single shred of evidence to back up his allegations which come close to accusing USA Today of treason. President Bush has similar breathless claims when it was exposed in the NYT times that he had not been telling Americans the truth about warrantless wiretapping.

Its time for these whining apologists who rush to accuse journalists of treason everytime it is shown that this administration is playing games with the Constitution and not coming clean with the American people. These breathless claims of treason and aiding the enemy are of the utmost seriousness and not a game and its time for President Bush and his apologists to stop playing partisan games with our nations national sescurity and put up or shut up.

Fox "News" takes this propaganda to sloppy extremes in its recent coverage throwing baseless mud against USA Today.

The Dow was down 120 points today, prompting Fox News’ David Ruder to suggest it was because USA Today made “the country less safe” by running its story on NSA’s data mining.

But Fox News host Brenda Butler disagreed, saying that Wall Street would “not going to let some puny, little traitor, some leaker who went ahead and compromised our national security, take down this, take down our market, take down our country.”

Fox News has become so partisan and unhinged that now its own reporters are making such ridiculous claims that they are looking like they are trying to parody themselves.
Its time for responsible Americans to demand an end to this kind of crap. Many in the GOP have come to this, screaming traitor, at every embarrasment, respectable people include Conservates as well as liberals, Republicans as well as Democrats should repudiate the demogaguery of Hoekstra and Fox as the irresponsible crap that it is.

So why is it that when Qwest asked for a routine court order to make everything legal and tidy, the NSA decided it would rather leave a gap in its surveillance than get one?

Because George W Bush, as commander in Chief in the War on Terror, has the inherent power to issue surveillance orders without a warrant and therefore there was no need for a warrant.

Bottom line: cut the crap about how the NSA "fully complies with the law and the Constitution." If that were the case, the president would be eager to test it in court and clear up all doubt. The reason he's not is pretty obvious: he knows perfectly well he'd lose.

Wrong. The President is protecting the American people, and has better things to do than satisfy the absurd demands of liberal bloggers. What you're doing is like asking soldiers in Iraq to obtain a court order before firing back at terrorists.

kevin

good posts on this issue. keep it up.

Because George W Bush, as commander in Chief in the War on Terror, has the inherent power to issue surveillance orders without a warrant and therefore there was no need for a warrant.

You will make an excellent guard for the new "re-education" camps they set up. Any experience in dog handling?

This is really a comment on cut the crap I but I'm putting it here to get attention.

Falkenrath is not the only person who hopes that someone somewhere hasn't figured out how easy it is to look up a number in the phone book these days (googling the number does indeed work).

From
www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/washington/13phone.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

"'There's a loophole,' said Mark Rasch, the former head of computer-crime investigations for the Justice Department and now the senior vice president of Solutionary, a computer security company. 'Records of phones that have called each other without identifying information are not covered by any of these laws.'"

OK so anyone want to hire a computer security consultant who thinks that there could be such a thing as "Records of phones that have called each other without identifying information" ???

Not only is the guy obviously lying, but he is confident that any potential clients will assume he is lying and not too stupid to live let alone protect them from hackers.

The reason he's not is pretty obvious: he knows perfectly well he'd lose.

He's the worst kind of loser. The kind that is so psychologically unbalanced, that public acknowledgement of his lack of good judgment is to be avoided at all costs. Even at the cost of violating the constitutional liberty against unwarranted search and siezure. Bush's frail psyche cannot handle the possibility that he has failed in his primary task: To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. His oath of office was pretty specific. And he's failed at fulfilling it. Failed. Failed. Failed.

Free advice to people in the Washington Post who are not quite technologically savy.

If you type

http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/whitepages/phone/index.html?number=XXXXXXXXXX

where XXXXXXXXXX is a valid unlisted phone number, you can get the name and address of the perosn whose phone number it is.

Of course this can also be done programmatically for millions of numbers, without human intervention. For example, download the HttpClient library from http://jakarta.apache.org

I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that Republicans will say anything, anything at all. It reminds one of how, when asked what her name is, a whore will reputedly reply, "What would you like it to be?" Republicans are equally quick to argue for any position at all so long as it benefits their party or big business.

Excellent post, Kevin.

Are Al and tbrosz and AmericanHawk for real, or are they just auditioning for Colbert's job? It is so hard to tell anymore.

I guess I choose to believe they are parodies, and have a good laugh.

If they are for real, they are so out of touch with reality that there is really nothing helpful to say to them, so I hope I am right that they are goofing.

I heard on one broadcast that they are claiming that "business" records are not protected and therefore all this is legal. Does this mean I can legally start a private business whereby I provide the calling history to any phone number provided by a customer - no questions asked? (I will not include any personal information of course! Just provide me with a phone number.)

How do we know they aren't listening in?

Kevin Drum >"CUT THE CRAP..."

Hey, Bush Handlers, Inc. is only trying to fertilize the dialog so it becomes more productive

Spread it around !

"Liars are usually easily discredited; it's the truth-tellers who need to be destroyed." - Joshua Marshall

Tilli:

How do we know they aren't listening in?

1) What evidence would convince you they weren't?

2) Would making this evidence public destroy the program?

tbrosz-

Tell us exactly how the program would be destroyed by being tested in court.

Most idiotic was David Brooks comment on PBS yesterday. He claimed that Americans will support this program. They can trust the records with AT&T and other phone companies who clearly have them. So why won't they trust the government with these records?

Tilli >"How do we know they aren't listening in?"

We don`t

That`s THE point

And BTW a big howdy to the NSA folks monitoring all this...Lotsa fun huh ?

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact....Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - newshog@gmail.com

Since when did the Republicans become reluctant to do anything on the basis of what they guess to be the liberals' reaction? Are we to believe that Bush does not want to test this in court because he thinks that even if he does, and prevails, Kevin Drum would still not support the program?

"http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/whitepages/phone/index.html?number=XXXXXXXXXX"

Creepy. I don't even have to pay and it indicates the last known location of my cellphone (with neighborhood accuracy). It is not indicating the billing location, which is 60 miles away.

Offtopic, but, what's the deal with Scotland? Abramoff whisked people off to Scotland, DeLay's lawyer, or someone, just returned from Scotland, Brent Wilkes rented a castle in Scotland,

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000644.php

So, is it some Masonic thing?

Tell us exactly how the program would be destroyed by being tested in court.

No, Matt. You tell me how it could remain functional.

What does "tested" mean? Exactly which court? Where would hearings be held? Who would be in on them, and who would not? How would security be maintained while convincing the paranoid that someone wasn't pulling a fast one?

The publicity so far on this issue has probably already destroyed any effectiveness the program would have had, and lawsuits and other attacks on phone companies will make that certain. The issue is, for all intents and purposes, already dead.

It's obvious that the Left considers the old vetting mechanism of the House and Senate Inelligence Committees broken. What are they to be replaced with?

Oh why don't you cut the crap Drum! Ashcrofts a lawyer - do you think he wants to 'kill all the lawyers'?

It is a maxim among these lawyers, that whatever hath been done before, may legally be done again: and therefore they take special care to record all the decisions formerly made against common justice and the general reason of mankind."
- Jonathan Swift. Gulliver, in Gulliver's Travels, "A Voyage to the Country of the Houyhnhnms

Obviously the claven can't just bring in a full blown fascist police state overnight! A million lawyers would be thrown out of work overnight. Are you a political animal?... or a political imbecile?

The vetting mechanisms are broken not for any structural reasons but because of preponderance of Bushlickers like Roberts in the committees. Just the replacement of the Bushistas will make the committees whole.

I put this on another thread, but it seems more applicable here,

I just noticed that whenever I use Google it brings up ads specific to the state I live in. How does it know this?

So, is it some Masonic thing?

No, it's even more sinister than you might imagine: Golf.

"The publicity so far on this issue has probably already destroyed any effectiveness the program would have had, and lawsuits and other attacks on phone companies will make that certain." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_05/008806.php#885113

There was a time I would have thought this comment was a troll, but it reflects exactly the kind of thought processes by Hoekstra.

Have you lost the ability to think critically or did you never have it? Try this as a thought experiment, pretend this was a program by Clinton or Gore or Kerry and then formulate your response.

You are right about one thing, if terrorists never ever call anyone ever utilizing any messenging system that passes through a U.S. owned company then the system probably wont work - if this story caused that to happen then that will do far more to cripple al queda than this program ever could have by limiting their ability to communicate.

Please explain in detail how this program would have resulted in actionable intelligence if kept secret but now no longer possibly can that the general outlines are known. You cant so you are left with blind faith apparently depeding on whether you it is politically convenient to shout one thing or the other.

I just noticed that whenever I use Google it brings up ads specific to the state I live in. How does it know this?

Most likely from your IP address.

tbrosz,

If it's found Constitutional and correct, what harm would befall determining that?

If its' effectiveness is already destroyed what harm then can befall testing it in court?

How can it remain functional? Why wouldn't it? And if it's found to be not Constitutional and not legal, you still see nothing wrong in it?

Dear God, is golf a Masonic plot!?

lib:

The vetting mechanisms are broken not for any structural reasons but because of preponderance of Bushlickers like Roberts in the committees. Just the replacement of the Bushistas will make the committees whole.

I assume this includes all the ranking Democrats, too, including the year or so when the program was active and the Democrats were leading the committees.

Catch22:

It's obvious that phone companies aren't going to continue cooperating under these circumstances, so like I said, this is probably a moot point.

Others have explained how the database could be used, including Falkenrath.

There is no way you can make the case that revealing the existence of the database, including which phone companies were or were not included in it (a lot more than just a "general outline"), would have no impact at all on its effectiveness.

cld:

If it's found Constitutional and correct, what harm would befall determining that?

It's already Constitutional. The Supreme Court determined phone records were not a Fourth Amendment issue some time ago. You'd have to go by statutes, if anything.

I can't think of any mechanism for clearing this to the satisfaction of the paranoid Left that would leave any part of it still secret.

What would be the process?

It's like Darfur. Things bog down a bit once you get past "Bush Sucks" and have to come up with details.

"...prompting Fox News’ David Ruder to suggest it was because USA Today made “the country less safe...”

The guy is an idiot. Stocks tumbled because of current and future interest rate hikes.

"They can trust the records with AT&T and other phone companies."

You can't trust them, at least until the 'do not call list'. Maybe we need a 'do not listen' list, put yourself on the list and no one can hear you talking,

This one of those issues that is not going anywhere. We are so awash in digital signatures already.

Well, if it is constitutional, there is no reason for the telcos to stop co-operating.

No the mere publication of the existence of the program does not nullify its effectiveness in any obvious way. The onus for proof of their assertion is on those who claim that the program is no longer effective just because now everyone knows about it.

how's the wife feeling today Tbrosz?

Well, if it is constitutional, there is no reason for the telcos to stop co-operating.

Try a five billion dollar lawsuit. No company that sells to the public could withstand the fire that the Left is going to bring down on them for this.

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.

They can't cut the crap, crap is all they have.

tbrosz

methinks you have run out of valid arguments to support the indefensible.

take a walk. at least in san diego it's quite a beautiful day.

lib:

Don't know about the first point, since nobody's actually seriously countered any of my arguments yet.

But as for your second point? You're right. I think I'm going to do just that.

I'm wrong. You guys are right.

And yes... I am trying to ingratiate myself after I got caught out double dealing as "American Hawk."

Sure it would have been smarter and saner of me to quit the tbrosz nick forever.

You know take a couple of days off, and come back with a fresh new nick.

Something like-- "Freedom Fighting American Hawk."

But I guess you can say I am addicted to the tbozo nick. I've got a lot "invested" in building that brand.

I just can't give it up.

And that, despite the fact that my brand has become a laughing stock across the liberal land.

Anyhow, for the next few days and threads, I am going to pose as the rational, gentlemanly conservative who just wants to hash things out argumentatively.

I will be posing as a nice fellow.
Open and kind and big-minded.

You libs will fall for it again.

You always do.

"It's obvious that phone companies aren't going to continue cooperating under these circumstances, so like I said, this is probably a moot point."

Yes given that it's not legal then they shouldnt cooperate, good thing it became public or they would have continued doing this illegal program under pressure from the Bush adminsration.

Oh but it was legal you say, then the government can compel them to cooperate. If its legal then they have nothing to fear, if you trot out the boogeyman of baseless lawsuits as the problem congress can fix that. If they refuse than the Congress can tighten the law to make sure they do.

I guess you have forgotten that the GOP still controlls both houses and the Presidency, and can change the laws.

Of course you have a boogeyman argument for every contingency.

tbrosz,
I'm not sure what your argument is.

You say:
"What does "tested" mean? Exactly which court? Where would hearings be held? Who would be in on them, and who would not? How would security be maintained while convincing the paranoid that someone wasn't pulling a fast one?"

Isn't this the point of FISA, to review programs such as this in secret?

tbrosz: "You tell me how it could remain functional. What does "tested" mean? Exactly which court?"

FISC. You know, the secret court created for exactly this sort of thing.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

There was a split in the administration between those who thought that it was legal under the Constitution, and those who thought that it was not. There was a split among Republicans in the Congress between those who thought legalization could be passed and those who thought that it could not. There was an awareness that Democrats would play the issue for partisan gain, or blame the Republicans for partisan gain, to the detrement of the country (or the Republican party.) With the confirmation hearings and the energy bill taking years to get through, with the SS reform killed, and with most other things passing by narrow margins, they decided to finesse the issue.

I can't tell whether the administration made a political mistake or not. We'll learn something during the Hayden nomination hearings, and we'll see how the Democrats and Republicans play it in the elections.

There are some vagaries in the laws. It looks to me like it was legal, but I have so far read only about 4 legal opinions. Orin Kerr says that he is planning to write more, as are some others.

Even Newt doesn't like this sort of stuff (he does have a *few* decent bones) and he isn't the only republican.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/12/gingrich-on-nsa/

BTW, the latest from Truthout is that other hanky-panky was going on (like using spy satellites!), so it may be moot that checking the phone records is legal.

tbrosz,

I've been wondering about that year when Democrats led the relevent committees. That year was before this became public and before anyone had an inkling of how deep and complex these operations are. Did the White House actually tell them anything? Or, in what they did tell them, was it couched in some way of deep security that made it almost impossible for them to question?

You are right though, I don't think this method of data gathering could be viewed in any happy way by liberals no matter how many safeguards implemented.

As it is, there are no evident safeguards at all, and, on top of that, they allow private companies to work on the data analysis. It just seems too certain these will only be the kind of companies Republicans trust. You know, evil.

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.

As when we thought Poindexter's program was killed years ago, but they just changed its' name.

Billions of phone numbers connecting to other phone numbers. You can't do anything with that volume of data unless you have a place to start, such as the phone number of a terror suspect. And if you have the phone number of a terror suspect, the Feds could get FISA approval. So why the secrecy? Why the sneaking around the established legal process?

I might feel differently if Bushco wasn't setting a records for political trickstery.

Get this,

Talking Points quoting Newsweek,

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/008454.php

In the margins of (Joseph Wilson's) op-ed, Cheney jotted out a series of questions that seemed to challenge many of Wilson's assertions as well as the legitimacy of his CIA sponsored trip to Africa: "Have they done this sort of thing before? Send an Amb. [sic] to answer a question? Do we ordinarily send people out pro bono to work for us? Or did his wife send him on a junket?"

At that point Cheney already knew who Wilson's wife was.

Is it too early to suggest some connection to Dusty Foggo? Plame was working on the Iranian nuclear program, but she was also working, as apparently the entirety, of a company that filled in the background of undercover agents in which connection she might have had a lot to do with procurement executives, like Foggo.

tdouche referring to anyone as paranoid is truly hilarious--this is the idiot who thinks that all public approval turning against the president and his policies is the result of some sort of "liberal media" brainwashing.

then again that could be the "fake" tdouche. Then again, there's no real difference between the real and parody wingnuts anymore, so who cares?

From now on I am going to be the fake Matt. I intend to steal my user name and say generally truthful stuff behind my wall of secrecy.

So, do not listen to the old Matt, just listen to the fake Matt

If Reprentative Hoekstra truly wants to help the nation then he should stop this empty partisan treason mongering and get his party to stop puting politics over National Security and have Congress engage in the oversight envisioned by our founding fathers as essential to maintaing our Democratic system of checks and balances.

"It's the recklessness at the top of our government, not the press' exposure of it, that has truly aided the enemy, put American lives at risk and potentially sabotaged national security," Rich continues. "That's where the buck stops, and if there's to be a witch hunt for traitors, that's where it should begin."
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Frank_Rich_Any_witch_hunt_for_0513.html

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.
Posted by: tbrosz

I find this particularly annoying, so allow me some bluntness ...

listen, you apologist sack of under-educated dog shit, and listen well.

NONE of the programs brought to light that we object to -- including secret prisons, rendition, torture, unauthorized spying on americans, illegal wiretaps, or exposure of covert CIA agents for personal vendettas -- NONE of these comprise any element of national security. They make us demonstrably less safe and provide recruitment for al qaeda.

Those who proposed, approved, and participated in these activities are traitors to america and all it stands for. Any opportunity to kneecap these traitors and their programs is well fucking worth it.

You have consistently proven yourself a pathetic coward willingly sacrificing liberty for security. your opinion on these matters, and of the other apologists, is worth less than shit.

Kevin, this is slightly off topic, but related to cutting the crap and the earlier post "It turns out it was wrong"

A year after Bush administration claims about Iraqi "bioweapons trailers" were discredited by American experts, U.S. officials were still suppressing the findings, says a senior member of the CIA-led Iraq inspection team.

At one point, former U.N. arms inspector Rod Barton says, a CIA officer told him it was "politically not possible" to report that the White House claims were untrue. In the end, Barton says, he felt "complicit in deceit."
....
Returning to Baghdad in late 2003 to join the CIA-commissioned Iraq Survey Group in a senior role, Barton found that specialists had dismissed the "biotrailer" suspicions. Strong evidence showed the units were instead designed to make hydrogen for weather balloons, as Iraqis claimed.

David Kay, then chief inspector, has since said that in December 2003 George J. Tenet, then CIA director, wouldn't accept this finding.

That February, Tenet claimed in a Washington speech that the trailers could be used to make bioweapons.

And what about the ranking intelligence committee members?

Actually, I think that Reid and Pelosi should fire them. And replace them, on a week-by-week basis, with every other Democrat in the Senate and House respectively.

I do love tbrosz's sophistry. If Dems kick up a fuss, they're leakers who harm national security and can't be trusted with classified information. If they don't, they're patsies.

Btw: gun owners? Are you still confident that your names aren't on another big database, in spite of what Ashcroft promised?

Go Nads!!!

Someone had to say it.

:)

> What does "tested" mean? Exactly
> which court? Where would hearings
> be held?

I am not a big fan of the FISA Court, since if I read my history correctly there was a direct line between the fight to end the Star Chamber and the American Revolution. But to answer your question: in the FISA Court, as requested by Qwest. Where the judges hold Top Secret security clearance. In front of which the hearings are conducted in secret, and the report is there has never been a breach of security. Which the NSA and the Bush Administration refused to do.

"bioweapons trailers"

I heard the bioweapons trailer was a taco truck owned by Ahib, the only taco vendor in Mosul.

Believe me, if you had Tbrosz's life, you'd be very bitter at the world too. I should know.

My guess is that tbrosz is on the payroll of the RNC. I mean, his whole schtick seems to be to try to repeat nonsense over and over again in hopes of confusing people. Who else but the RNC would do such a thing.

Unfortunately for them, six years of repeating nonsense has resulted in a 29% approval rating. They don't seem to have any other strategy.

BTW, I've always found Al to be a wonderful sataris--whether he intends to be so or not.

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.

Can you give one reason that illegal policies should be tolerated? You never explain why something that is illegal should be done.

If a "national security operation" involved selecting citizens on American soil for assassination, would you be upset if this operation was "kneecapped"?

Excuse me, where is it written that a President must test all his policies in court?

Nation of Laws, that's what they said.

Just another lie? But it's not a lie if you accept their spin.

Do you believe, truly believe?

Faith in the GOP trumps the Nation of Laws. Sorry.

Excuse me, where is it written that a President must test all his policies in court?

Well, I think that when Rehnquist gave GWB the--verbal--oath of office, he was probably reading from a text.

Something to do with defending and upholding the Constitution and the laws of our beloved country, which your boy is busily smearing with his own feces.

...and he swore on the Bible, and he spat upon his oath.

So I guess he spat upon the Bible, by implication.

Excuse me, where is it written that a President must test all his policies in court?

Oh. My. God.

What's with all the personal attacks on tbrosz? I mean, he's not a troll like Al, and he supports his arguments unlike FF or some others. Do some commenters here really have such fragile confidence in their own beliefs that they just have to lash out at anyone who disagrees?

Look, the fact that this datamining operation should be illegal, doesn't mean it is. And it does seem to be constitutional, at least under Supreme Court precedent as it now stands, that there is no reasonable presumption of privacy with respect to phone records. The monitoring of phone calls that broke last year was clearly illegal under FISA, as far as I know this isn't.

It's still, in my opinion, a terrible policy, easily prone to further abuse. And I think it should be unconstitutional, even if the SC hasn't yet seen it that way. But bad policy is not necessarily illegal policy

constantine
Can you give one reason that illegal policies should be tolerated? You never explain why something that is illegal should be done.

I'm uncomfortable with the NSA data mining of our phone data. Hell, I'm uncomfortable that the data exists in the telecomms' databases. The only difference between the telecomm databases and NSA's is that the NSA's spans all telecomms, and that they are focused on national security while the telecomms are limited to their customers and they are out to make a buck (and I hold stock in many of them).

That data ranks right up there with credit history data on the "none of your &%$-ing business" list. But it is also crucial data to tracking down terrorists in our country. And they *are* here.

So in short, I'm saving judgement on this one. More data please. I hate it when they ask a poll that basically says, "Given the 5% of the iceberg poking above the water, is remaining 95% of its shape pleasing or not." There is a lot to be learned/leaked yet.

And I'm also very curious to hear from democrats who have been "read in" on the programs. This is why we have a loyal opposition, to keep both sides honest while protecting our country. So far...crickets.

Red State Mike makes some good points. Good post. I have a giant concern that I have never seen addressed.

The islamic terrorists are not the brightest bulbs in the world. Osama is probably living in a cave. They are hard to find in Bagdad where everybody hates us, but would standout like a sore thumb anyplace in America. Have you actually read about the shoe bomber? What a moroon.

Why is it necessary for us to surrender our freedoms to fight this gang. It isn't like we are dealing with the old soviet union and the thousands of experts then in the employ of the KGB. Don't you think that with sufficient human intelligence carefully directed we could deal with these guys far more effectively without giving up our Constitutional freedoms? Hummmm?

Let's all cut the crap and place this scheme in its proper context. It is the Huston plan--nothing less and perhaps even somewhat more. It has nothing to do with terrorism. Its exclusive targets are domestic political opponents of the Republican Party. It would have been put in place even if September 11 had not happened. Its supporters know this; this is why they voted for it; they are proud of it; let them not cringe and dissimulate, but let them come forward and say that they are proud and say why they are proud.

Red State Mike,

I have read that some Democrats were aware of the program. They were told that if they blew the whistle bad things would happen to them. Apparently they are cowards, or maybe just craven. As I have said before, we should vote against them and every Republican for the same reason. They have utterly failed to properly oversee the executive.

Marty Lederman says the NSA program probably isn't in violation of the FISA. That's because the surveillance is conducted by the phone companies, not the NSA.

But the data gathering does violate, Lederman says, provisions of the Stored Communications Act and the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/05/further-thoughts-on-lawfulness-of.html

Now there's a legal technicality only a Republican could love.

I meant the point by Legalist.

tbrozs: "The program is dead."

Yes. The president just rolled up his tents & went home.

Please.

I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that the president is just getting started. The only polls out so far seem to contradict one another, but national security is pretty much the only issue that the president might still have working in his favor -- and that, too, is slipping. He's going to ride this horse to the finish line, or into the ground. I'm not confident on saying where most of America is on this one, so I'll leave those predictions to the rest of you.

But -- even if you're okay with this kind of a data mining program -- do you really have confidence that this administration would be able to do anything constructive with the massive amounts of data that this produces? These are the guys who -- whether or not you agreed with the decision to invade Iraq -- were absolutely certain about W. M.D.'s, and have gone on to completely blow the occupation. If they didn't put together the pieces in time to prevent 9/11, do you honestly believe that, this time, these guys are going to keep us safe by sifting through billions -- possibly trillions -- of telephone communications? Right now, all we're talking about is the legality of this stuff. Assume, for the sake of argument, that it is legal, then ask yourself: is this something that this administration is even capable of performing? Is it more likely that they're going to actually suss out the (let's be generous and say) dozen or so terrorist plots that might be out there among these trillions of communications at any given moment, or that they're going to wind up chasing their tails while a group of terrorists who have common sense enough NOT to use telephones do something to hurt us? This is, after all, the administration that didn't know what to do with the weather forecast that predicted Katrina.

Brosz: were you Libertarian or Totalitarian when you posted tonight? You are anathema to your own front party affiliation. Here is the central question of the NSA program: you can't learn a damned thing about terrorists from a massive collection of phone numbers. Now if you know a terrorists phone number, you can certainly go to FISA and link him or her to other numbers and cells. But this vast data mining operation has nothing to do with security. It has huge political and commercial application though. It would be one of the most complete data bases ever assembled on consumer tendencies and sociological interaction between families and friends. And it would trace calls to the DNC and local party precincts pretty damned well. We know those numbers. In other words, you pretty much have to know what you are looking for for this whole program to have any utility at all. It will not help you find an unknown terror cell. At all.
They tend to buy single use phones and communicate rarely amongst themselves. Someone else is interested in what Americans are saying and who they are calling. So Brosz, you are a fraud. Just like the administration. Keep designing those "rockets."

tbrosz wrote: "Don't know about the first point, since nobody's actually seriously countered any of my arguments yet."

That's because you haven't made a single argument worth countering. It's been nothing but rants and wholly unsupported assertions, not to mention an unhealthy dose of blind, unthinking partisanship. Come back when you've actually got something worth saying.

Kevin Drum wrote: "The reason he's not is pretty obvious: he knows perfectly well he'd lose."

It's not that simple. There are a couple of reasons, I think. The first is that you are correct that the Bush administration knows that it could lose. With two new Supreme Court justices, though, both of whom are well known supporters of the expansion of presidential authority, there is a reasonable chance that the Bush administration could win.

But as I said, they definitely could lose, which would be devastating to their notion of unlimited presidential authority. They would much rather not put it to the test, thereby guaranteeing that they can continue exercising supreme authority as they see fit. Why take the chance if you don't have to?

There is another reason, too, I think, and that is that some of them really have drunk the Kool-Aid and really do believe that the president is above the law. They aren't testing this in court because they honestly believe they don't have to -- that the courts have no jurisdiction in these matters. I hope there aren't many of these true believers like that but the reading I've done gives strong indication that such people do exist, particularly in the nebulous area of "national security" and that Bush and Cheney are likely to be among them.

Hmm...speaking of true believers, I wonder if there's a third factor, the fact that you think you're doing "God's will" and since this is a matter of faith, you're just not willing to let anyone else have a say in this.

Red State Mike wrote: "Are you claiming that no democrats have been aware of this program in any way, shape, or form? No one on any intelligence oversight committee?"

Are you aware that such politicians would be forbidden by law from publicly revealing or commenting on this program in any way? That the only thing they can do is object privately?

In any case, yes, I think the Democrats (and even the Republicans) in Congress have not been told the full and complete truth about the activities of this administration. And I don't think that we've seen the end of the revelations.

Bottom line: cut the crap about how the NSA "fully complies with the law and the Constitution." If that were the case, the president would be eager to test it in court and clear up all doubt. The reason he's not is pretty obvious: he knows perfectly well he'd lose.

Kevin, in order to get this matter before a federal court, it must be a "case or controversy" brought by a plaintiff with standing to trigger jurisdiction. In the absence of criminal charges being brought against someone, I don't see anyone who would have standing to make a legal challenge to the program. If a lawsuit were brought by Members of Congress, it would be dismissed as being a "political question" by the courts.

Perhaps that's how it should be. If the American people through their elective representives don't object to the President's actions, why should the judiciary get involved at all or even care?

No company that sells to the public could withstand the fire that the Left is going to bring down on them for this.

tbrosz presumes, dishonestly, that only "the Left" is concerned about civil liberties and abuse of gorvenrment power. It's richly ironic that this so-called "libertarian" is so ardent about trusting the government (well, as long as they give with the tax cuts...)

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.

tbrosz implies, bizarrely and dishonestly, that the opposition to Bush's criminal behavior is motivated by a desire to "kneecap" national security operations. Shame on you, tbrosz.

I'm thinking that there is a new market opening up for internet phones. A market that includes a by-default encrypting client. It should be setup to use ssh public key encryption of data so that whenever someone calls another client, the default is that the data is encrypted. Furthermore, I think an anonymizer system could be setup to hide what source is calling which client. This could even work halfway with client to telephone calls. You couldn't get the encryption thing into it unless you sell phones with builtin encryption that would work automatically with the service...

Combine an anonymizer system with ssh encryption of voice/data traffic and the NSA gets nothing but noise. Tie in some xmas presents to family and friends including a nifty by-default encryption phone and a wireless phone encryption system/anonymizer and we are set.

I'm seriously thinking about doing something like this ala an encrypted and anonymized Vonage or Skype system.

Look, you people won. The program is dead. Have a beer and go looking for the next national security operation to kneecap.

With pleasure. Better still, I want a Constitutional Amendment to once and for all cut off the ability of the Executive to classify much of anything, let alone hide anything from the people that actually own the government: the people. We are NOT subjects of the government, the government is subject to US. NO secrets allowed except those that are purely and clearly involved in military capabilities and plans or external intelligence gathering methods or procedures. NO internal secrets. None. Any attempt to classify ANYTHING or withold ANYTHING should have to be proven as necessary in a court by the Executive. No more secret energy policy meetings or minutes (Totally inappropriate and indefensible...what national security interest is "protected" there?). An open government is the only valid government. Anything else is, by definition, NOT a democracy and NOT legitimate.

Zero intelligence gathering inside the US vs ANY citizens at all without a valid court order. No more "Executive privilege". The President is supposed to be weak and minimal. It is an office inferior to the Congress by design and intent. It s there merely as a necessary evil for handling rare shit like true national threats like Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, etc...NOT a gaggle of yahoos wearing rags...and where is the "war on terror" to crush the anti-choicers who use terrorism tactics against doctors, nurses, and other civilians? I want a raid against those terrorists along the lines of the raid against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. They are the same: a bunch of nuts using the terror tactic to conduct a fight they are incapable of winning by legitimate means.

Anybody else starting to think that we should popularly elect the Attorney General?

And why is that in 2004, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft — John Ashcroft! — refused to reauthorize one of the NSA's programs until further procedures were put in place to ensure that it wasn't abused?

Cause John Ashcroft is a ultraliberal moonbat friend of the terrorists! or so i'm told.

Anybody else starting to think that we should popularly elect the Attorney General?

I also believe we need to separate the AG office/Justice Department from the Executive. Make it a 4th Independent branch of government...or give it to the Judiciary. You cannot have criminals (the Executive or Congress) "investigating" themselves by having the AG under either the Prez or the Congress. Let the Judiciary have them...or make it separate.

Amen Praedor!

Are you aware that such politicians would be forbidden by law from publicly revealing or commenting on this program in any way? That the only thing they can do is object privately?

Ah yes. Profiles in Courage time.

"But they told me they would slap my hand if I defended the constitution!!"

Give me a f$%^-ing break. If they are that much of the cowards, throw them out.

also believe we need to separate the AG office/Justice Department from the Executive. Make it a 4th Independent branch of government...or give it to the Judiciary. You cannot have criminals (the Executive or Congress) "investigating" themselves by having the AG under either the Prez or the Congress. Let the Judiciary have them...or make it separate.

There will still be criminals in the judiciary; and even within the justice department itself. Its an executive function, it needs to be within the executive, but Congress and the Judiciary both have oversight roles that need to be taken seriously.

Kevin, in order to get this matter before a federal court, it must be a "case or controversy" brought by a plaintiff with standing to trigger jurisdiction.

How about a federal lawsuit against the participating telcos for violating a statute that requires them, if they contend the program is legal, to assert as a defense that they are cooperating with a lawful government program?

That's how its actually being done, you know.

Anybody else starting to think that we should popularly elect the Attorney General?

The problem is accountability, not the selection process. And "no accountability" Pelosi has declared herself to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

流行音乐
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
song
华语歌曲

discount online pharmacy discount online pharmacy,

discount pharmacy UK discount pharmacy UK,

buy pharmacy buy pharmacy,

buy pharmacy online buy pharmacy online,

internet pharmacy internet pharmacy,

pharmacy drugs pharmacy drugs,

foreign pharmacy foreigh pharmacy,

discount prescription pharmacy discount prescription pharmacy

discount online pharmacy discount online pharmacy,

weight loss prescription drugs weight loss prescription drugs,

no prescription drugs rx no prescription drugs rx,

discount pharmacy discount pharmacy,

mortgage mortgage,

mortgage refinancing mortgage refinancing,

mortgage calculator mortgage calculator,

home mortgage home mortgage,

mortgage rate mortgage rate,

second mortgage second mortgage,

mortgage quote mortgage quote,

mortgage company mortgage company,

2nd mortgage 2nd mortgage,

mortgage loan mortgage loan,

florida mortgage florida mortgage,

bad credit mortgage, bad credit mortgage,

mortgage broker, mortgage broker,

mortgage lender, mortgage lender,

reverse mortgage, reverse mortgage,

mortgage lead, mortgage lead,

california mortgage, california mortgage,

best mortgage rate, best mortgage rate,

mortgage interest rate, mortgage interest rate,

adjustable rate mortgage, adjustable rate mortgage,

california mortgage loan, california mortgage loan,

gmac mortgage, gmac mortgage,

countrywide mortgage, countrywide mortgage,

texas mortgage, texas mortgage,

online mortgage, online mortgage,

california mortgage rate, california mortgage rate,

current mortgage rate, current mortgage rate,

mortgage payment, mortgage payment,

mortgage marketing, mortgage marketing,

florida mortgage lender, florida mortgage lender,

commercial mortgage, commercial mortgage,

national city mortgage, national city mortgage,

florida mortgage broker, florida mortgage broker,

mortgage insurance, mortgage insurance,

home mortgage rate, home mortgage rate,

lowest mortgage rate, lowest mortgage rate,

north carolina mortgage, north carolina mortgage,

bad credit loan mortgage, bad credit loan mortgage,

best mortgage, best mortgage,

bad credit mortgage refinance, bad credit mortgage refinance,

arizona mortgage, arizona mortgage,

mortgage new york, mortgage new york,

home mortgage interest rate, home mortgage interest rate,

mortgage washington, mortgage washington,

interest only mortgage, interest only mortgage,

mortgage financing, mortgage financing,

internet mortgage lead, internet mortgage lead,

maryland mortgage, maryland mortgage,

missouri mortgage, missouri mortgage,

finance mortgage, finance mortgage,

colorado mortgage, colorado mortgage,

refinance mortgage rate, refinance mortgage rate,

option one mortgage, option one mortgage,

mortgage houston, mortgage houston,

refinance mortgage loan, refinance mortgage loan,

mortgage protection, mortgage protection,

home equity mortgage, home equity mortgage,

nevada mortgage, nevada mortgage,

michigan mortgage, michigan mortgage,

new century mortgage, new century mortgage,

mortgage interest, mortgage interest,

bad credit mortgage lender, bad credit mortgage lender,

fixed rate mortgage, fixed rate mortgage,

washington mutual mortgage, washington mutual mortgage,

second mortgage loan, second mortgage loan,

american home mortgage, american home mortgage,

low mortgage rate, low mortgage rate,

california mortgage broker, california mortgage broker,

conventional mortgage, conventional mortgage,

debt consolidation mortgage, debt consolidation mortgage,

wisconsin wholesale mortgage, wisconsin wholesale mortgage,

mortgage application, mortgage application,

equity mortgage, equity mortgage,

mortgage note buyer, mortgage note buyer,

mortgage dallas, mortgage dallas,

first mortgage, first mortgage,

hawaii mortgage, hawaii mortgage,

mortgage chicago, mortgage chicago,

mortgage rate calculator, mortgage rate calculator,

fha mortgage, fha mortgage,

residential mortgage, residential mortgage,

mortgage georgia, mortgage georgia,

new jersey mortgage, new jersey mortgage,

california mortgage purchase, california mortgage purchase,

fixed mortgage, fixed mortgage,

indiana mortgage, indiana mortgage,

miami mortgage, miami mortgage,

illinois mortgage illinois mortgage

car insurance, car insurance,

insurance, insurance,

health insurance, health insurance,

home insurance, home insurance,

life insurance, life insurance,

auto insurance quote, auto insurance quote,

home owner insurance, home owner insurance,

travel insurance, travel insurance,

auto cheap insurance, auto cheap insurance,

dental insurance, dental insurance,

insurance quote, insurance quote,

term life insurance, term life insurance,

insurance carrier broker agent, insurance carrier broker agent,

medical insurance, medical insurance,

car insurance rate, car insurance rate,

business insurance, business insurance,

renters insurance, renters insurance,

insurance broker, insurance broker,

insurance company, insurance company,

life insurance quote, life insurance quote,

state farm insurance, state farm insurance,

health insurance quote, health insurance quote,

auto insurance company, auto insurance company,

online insurance quote, online insurance quote,

affordable health insurance, affordable health insurance,

farmer insurance, farmer insurance,

low cost health insurance, low cost health insurance,

california health insurance, california health insurance,

allstate insurance, allstate insurance,

individual health insurance, individual health insurance,

motorcycle insurance, motorcycle insurance,

progressive insurance, progressive insurance,

insurance lead, insurance lead,

rv insurance, rv insurance,

term insurance, term insurance,

term life insurance quote, term life insurance quote,

boat insurance, boat insurance,

texas health insurance, texas health insurance,

pet insurance, pet insurance,

nationwide insurance, nationwide insurance,

insurance attorney, insurance attorney,

whole life insurance, whole life insurance,

free insurance quote, free insurance quote,

health insurance plan, health insurance plan,

american family insurance, american family insurance,

long term care insurance, long term care insurance,

progressive auto insurance, progressive auto insurance,

insurance online, insurance online,

health insurance illinois, health insurance illinois,

online car insurance, online car insurance,

health insurance coverage, health insurance coverage,

auto insurance rate, auto insurance rate,

affordable insurance, affordable insurance,

life insurance policy, life insurance policy,

auto insurance online, auto insurance online,

student health insurance, student health insurance,

insurance adjuster, insurance adjuster,

mercury insurance, mercury insurance,

health insurance company, health insurance company,

family health insurance, family health insurance,

florida health insurance, florida health insurance,

disability insurance, disability insurance,

group health insurance, group health insurance,

cheap health insurance, cheap health insurance,

liability insurance, liability insurance,

travel health insurance, travel health insurance,

new york car insurance, new york car insurance,

online auto insurance quote, online auto insurance quote,

mortgage insurance, mortgage insurance,

international health insurance, international health insurance,

insurance rate, insurance rate,

insurance policy, insurance policy,

california health insurance quote, california health insurance quote,

flood insurance, flood insurance,

temporary health insurance, temporary health insurance,

home owner insurance quote, home owner insurance quote,

property insurance, property insurance,

short term health insurance, short term health insurance,

life insurance company, life insurance company,

free health insurance quote, free health insurance quote,

affordable car insurance, affordable car insurance,

employment insurance, employment insurance,

major medical insurance, major medical insurance,

insurance agent, insurance agent,

florida car insurance, florida car insurance,

traveler insurance, traveler insurance,

21st century insurance, 21st century insurance,

health insurance ca, health insurance ca,

texas department of insurance, texas department of insurance,

low cost life insurance, low cost life insurance,

car insurance chicago, car insurance chicago,

aaa insurance, aaa insurance,

international medical insurance, international medical insurance,

life insurance rate, life insurance rate,

california health insurance plan, california health insurance plan,

dental insurance plan, dental insurance plan,

self employed health insurance, self employed health insurance,

usaa insurance, usaa insurance,

hartford insurance hartford insurance

top summer vacation, top summer vacation,

america next top model, america next top model,

top movie, top movie

top model, top model,

counter tops, counter tops,

top gear, top gear,

america top model, america top model,

top story, top story,

top news story, top news story,

top search, top search,

top song, top song,

next top model, next top model,

american next top model, american next top model,

top news, top news,

top teen model, top teen model,

top of the world, top of the world,

american top model, american top model,

top secret, top secret,

top shop, top shop,

top franchise top franchise

zip code look up, zip code look up,

phone number look up, phone number look up,

phone look up, phone look up

Free search engine free search engine

pay per click search engine pay per click search engine

web search engine, web search engine

search, search

search engine, search engine

portal, portal

internet portal internet portal

pay per click search enginepay per click search engine


online search engine online search engine

ppc search engine ppc search engine

ppc advertising ppc advertising

pay per click advertising pay per click advertising


ppc affiliate program ppc affiliate program

search engine affiliate program search engine affiliate program

online casino, online casino,

internet casino, internet casino,

casino game, casino game,

online casino gambling, online casino gambling,

best online casino, best online casino

casino gambling, casino gambling,

internet casino gambling, internet casino gambling,

vegas casino, vegas casino,

casino gaming, casino gaming,

casino bonus, casino bonus,

casino slot, casino slot,

10 best online casino, 10 best online casino,

grand casino, grand casino,

virtual casino, virtual casino,

casino on line, casino on line,

internet casino gambling online, internet casino gambling online,

casino chips, casino chips,

online gambling casino, online gambling casino

best online casino gambling, best online casino gambling

casino portal, casino portal,

best casino, best casino,

online casino bonus, online casino bonus,

top online casino, top online casino,

gambling casino online, gambling casino online,

jackpot casino, jackpot casino,

casino black jack, casino black jack,

casino baccarat, casino baccarat,

casino gamble, casino gamble,

online casino slot, online casino slot,

casino roulette, casino roulette,

casino on the net casino on the net

host, host

cheap host web, cheap host web,

domain host, domain host,

host image, host image,

dedicated host, dedicated host,

host top web, host top web,

ecommerce host web, ecommerce host web,

host internet, host internet,

cheap host, cheap host,

affordable host site web, affordable host site web,

host services, host services,

host php, host php

computer, computer,

notebook computer, notebook computer,

dell computer, dell computer,

desktop computer, desktop computer,

computer software, computer software,

computer store, computer store,

computer sale, computer sale,

computer computer, computer computer,

computer hardware, computer hardware,

computer electronics, computer electronics,

computer internet, computer internet,

discount computer, discount computer,

computer memory, computer memory,

computer part, computer part,

apple computer, apple computer,

computer accessory, computer accessory,

computer system, computer system,

computer monitor, computer monitor,

buy computer, buy computer,

hp computer, hp computer,

gateway computer, gateway computer,

computer cases, computer cases,

computer hardware equipment, computer hardware equipment,

computer equipment, computer equipment,

computer furniture, computer furniture,

cheap computer, cheap computer,

computer storage, computer storage,

personal computer, personal computer,

computer mouse, computer mouse,

computer networking equipment, computer networking equipment,

computer speaker, computer speaker,

used computer, used computer,

computer shopping, computer shopping,

computer cable, computer cable,

gaming computer, gaming computer,

computer keyboard, computer keyboard,

computer armoire, computer armoire,

compaq computer, compaq computer,

wholesale computer hardware, wholesale computer hardware,

multimedia computer, multimedia computer,

portable computer, portable computer,

computer hardware and software, computer hardware and software,

california computer, california computer,

computer component, computer component,

computer ohio, computer ohio,

cheap notebook computer, cheap notebook computer,

buying a computer, buying a computer

acer computer acer computer

herbal supplement, herbal supplement

herbal, herbal

herbal medicine, herbal medicine

herbal remedy, herbal remedy

herbal tea, herbal tea

herbal breast enhancement, herbal breast enhancement

herbal life, herbal life

buy herbal product, buy herbal product

herbal essence, herbal essence

herbal cleanse, herbal cleanse

herbal cleansing, herbal cleansing

herbal magic, herbal magic

herbal weight loss, herbal weight loss

herbal product, herbal product

quit smoking herbal, quit smoking herbal

herbal smoke herbal smoke

herbal store herbal store

herbal nutrition supplement herbal nutrition supplement

herbal skin care herbal skin care

herbal nutrition herbal nutrition

weight loss weight loss
weight loss pill weight loss pill
weight loss pills weight loss pills
weight loss diet weight loss diet
weight loss program weight loss program
LA weight loss LA weight loss
weight loss product weight loss product
weight loss supplements weight loss supplements
fast weight loss fast weight loss
quick weight loss quick weight loss
weight loss drugs weight loss drugs
Natural weight loss Natural weight loss
weight loss medication weight loss medication
Healthy weight loss healthy weight loss
Rapid weight loss rapid weight loss
weight loss tips weight loss tips
Green tea weight loss green tea weight loss
weight loss diet pills weight loss diet pills
weight loss online weight loss online
online weight loss online weight loss
best weight loss program best weight loss program
easy weight loss easy weight loss
weight loss patch weight loss patch
weight loss information weight loss information
weight loss prescription weight loss prescription
herbal weight loss herbal weight loss
hoodia weight loss hoodia weight loss
rapid weight loss pills rapid weight loss pills
best weight loss pills best weight loss pills
weight loss help weight loss help
weight loss system weight loss system
weight loss wellbutrin weight loss wellbutrin
wellbutrin weight loss wellbutrin weight loss
buy wellbutrin buy wellbutrin
order wellbutrin order wellbutrin
order wellbutrin online order wellbutrin online
generic wellbutrin generic wellbutrin
cheap wellbutrin cheap wellbutrin
buy wellbutrin online buy wellbutrin online
herb weight loss herb weight loss
weight loss herb weight loss herb
weight loss prescription pills weight loss prescription pills
best weight loss supplement best weight loss supplement
free weight loss tips free weight loss tips
weight loss tea weight loss tea

Herbal products - herbal remedie, herbal producs

Breast enlargement - breast enlargement, increase breast size naturaly

Generic proscar - buy cheap proscar pills online

Generic propecia - buy propecia online, cheap discount propecia

casino strategies casino strategies

casino directory casino directory

gambling tips gambling tips

casino consultant casino consultant

casino bonus casino bonus

10 best online casino 10 best online casino

casino gambling casino gambling

download adult movies download adult movies

adult sex movies adult sex movies

free adult movies free adult movies

adult english movies adult english movies

xxx adult movies xxx adult movies

adult movie clips adult movie clips

adult dvd movies adult dvd movies

adult movie trailer adult movie trailer

adult porn movies adult porn movies

adult movie database adult movie database

adult movie sample adult movie sample

adult movies online adult movies online

adult movies online adult movies online

adult friend finder adult friend finder

adult dvd adult dvd

adult video adult video

adult sex adult sex

adult search engine adult search engine

adult toy adult toy

adult movies dvd adult movies dvd

adult web cam chat adult web cam chat

adult dating personals adult dating personals

adult movies dvd adult movies dvd

adult ecard adult ecard

adult sex adult sex

adult pics adult pics

adult portal adult portal

porn star finder porn star finder

pornstar finder pornstar finder

porn star search porn star search

pornstar search pornstar search

pornstar search pornstar search

pornstar search pornstar search

pornstar search pornstar search

pornstar search pornstar search

adult toys store adult toys store

adult toys adult toys

adult toy store adult toy store

adult toy adult toy

discount adult toys discount adult toys

discounted adult toys discounted adult toys

love dolls love dolls

adult toy vibrator adult toy vibrator

adult sex toy store adult sex toy store

erotic sex toys erotic sex toys

discount adult toys discount adult toys

discounted adult toys discounted adult toys

love dolls love dolls

adult toy vibrator adult toy vibrator

adult sex toy store adult sex toy store

erotic sex toys erotic sex toys

discount sex toys discount sex toys

cheap sex toys cheap sex toys

buy sex toys buy sex toys

glass dildo glass dildo

male sex toys male sex toys

female sex toys female sex toys

women sex toys women sex toys

internet portal internet portal

recent news recent news

internet search internet search

find porn stars find favorite porn stars

porn star Crissy Moran porn star Crissy Moran

porn star Tyler Faith porn star Tyler Faith

porn star Ashton Moore porn star Ashton Moore

porn star Krystal Steal porn star Krystal Steal

porn star Jenna Jameson porn star Jenna Jameson

porn star Stormy Daniels porn star Stormy Daniels

porn star Briana Banks porn star Briana Banks

porn star Alexis Amore porn star Alexis Amore

porn star Brittany Andrews porn star Brittany Andrews

porn star Tera Patrick porn star Tera Patrick

porn star Gina Lynn porn star Gina Lynn

porn star Jill Kelly porn star Jill Kelly

porn star Sophia Rossi porn star Sophia Rossi

porn star Summer Skyes porn star Summer Skyes

porn star Jesse Capelli porn star Jesse capelli

porn star Lonnie Waters porn star Lonnie Waters

porn star Jenna Heart porn star Jenna Heart

porn star Natalia Cruze porn star Natalia Cruze

porn star Teri Summers porn star Teri Summers

porn star Anita Dark porn star Anita Dark

porn star Ginger Jolie porn star Ginger Jolie

porn star Alexa Kai porn star Alexa Kai

porn star Breana porn star Breana

porn star Crystal Klein porn star Crystal Klein

porn star Kelle Marie porn star Kelle Marie

porn star Jamie Lynn porn star Jamie Lynn

centerfold Barbie Griffin centerfold Barbie Griffin

centerfold Zdenka Podkapova centerfold Zdenka Podkapova

porn star Tall Goddess porn star Tall Goddess

porn star Sky Lopez porn star Sky Lopez

porn star Penny Flame porn star Penny Flame

porn star Nikki Nova porn star Nikki Nova

porn star Tanya James porn star Tanya James

porn star Avy Scott porn star Avy Scott

porn star Monique Alexander porn star Monique Alexander

porn star Mason Marconi porn star Mason Marconi

porn star Bobbie Eden porn star Bobbie Eden

porn star Britney Foster porn star Britney Foster

centerfold Coco Johnsen centerfold Coco Johnsen

porn star Maliyah Madison porn star Maliyah Madison

porn star Lacey Duvalle porn star Lacey Duvalle

porn star Kylie Wyld porn star Kylie Wyld

porn star Kira Eggers porn star Kira Eggers

porn star Jessica Darling porn star Jessica Darling

porn star Jana Cova porn star Jana Cova

porn star Dru Berrymore porn star Dru Berrymore

porn star Deja Chan porn star Deja Chan

porn star Dani Woodward porn star Dani Woodward

porn star Amber Rain porn star Amber Rain

porn star Allysin Chaynes porn star Allysin Chaynes

porn star Tyler Fox porn star Tyler Fox

porn star Taylor Ann porn star Taylor Ann

porn star Nakita Kash porn star Nakita Kash

porn star Charlie Laine porn star Charlie Laine

porn star Domino porn star Domino

porn star Becky Le Sabre porn star Becky Le Sabre

porn star Kaylani Lei porn star Kaylani Lei

porn star Katja Kassin porn star Katja Kassin

porn star Victoria Red porn star Victoria Red

porn star Nautica Thorn porn star Nautica Thorn

porn star Veronica Zemanova porn star Veronica Zemanova

porn star Kyla Cole porn star Kyla Cole

porn star Aria Giovanni porn star Aria Giovanni

porn star Erica Campbell porn star Erica Campbell

porn star Jesse Jane porn star Jesse Jane

porn star Nikki Tyler porn star Nikki TYler

porn star Monica Sweetheart porn star Monica Sweetheart

porn star Katsumi porn star Katsumi

porn star Devon porn star Devon