Why are republicans determined to wreck our liberties?

Wow.

Based on Boot's piece can we stipulate here that Conservatives simply don't believe in the idea of civil liberties?

proving once again that GW is "The Decider." eesh.

Everything that the President has ever said in the past has always turned out to be true. So I'm sure that you can absolutely trust him when he says that no one at all is having their privacy invaded except terrorists.

Thank God Arlen finally saw that nothing needs to be investigated!

From Boot's op-ed:

Even though the records were anonymous ...

Because they're skeered, republicans are willing to turn this great nation into a police state. Cowards!

Those who would risk security for a little liberty (except to drive cars -- those vicious, deadlier-than-Iraq cars!) deserve neither!

Were it not for FISA's high standard of "probable cause," the FBI could have examined Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop in August 2001 and perhaps saved 3,000 lives.

Yeah, where in the hell could they have gotten that idea? "Probable cause"? It's positively un-American.

For the latest NSA scandal news, legal documents, statutes and other essential materials, see:
"The NSA Domestic Spying Scandal Resources."

I can't believe anyone actually has sufficient time to wast reading Maximum Bootpolisher. If the LA Times hadn't become the AAA farm team for the farfarfar right Chicago Tribune - the midwest's premiere producer of toilet paper substitute and litter box liner - no one would know who this bozo is.

That a columnist of such supposed high stature as Max Boot can write a column in LAT with the headline 'Forget privacy, we need to spy more' shows the depth of depravity to which the news papers and the media and the GOP have taken us all.

Max Boot is right as usual:

But FISA is a luxury we can no longer afford. Were it not for FISA's high standard of "probable cause," the FBI could have examined Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop in August 2001 and perhaps saved 3,000 lives. The Patriot Act scaled back some FISA provisions, such as the "wall" between intelligence and law enforcement agents, but enough remain intact to raise unnecessary questions about the legality of some much-needed homeland security measures.

Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11. George Bush is trying not to let such concerns cost yet more lives. Naturally, Kevin Drum et al are trying to stop him, probably because they figure more dead Americans will allow the democrat party to score cheap political points.

Combine this with the recent executive order that allows companies to lie about it...

He said a lot more than that. He also assured everyone that they were not "mining data."

That is where the administration decided to draw the line between security and liberty. Not the Congress? Not the courts? Not the Constitution? The administration?

Damn good of the administration to even think about liberty. The trolls should feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Folks, before 2000 this our government had three branchs. Each had a role to play, but in the old days the executive's job was to faithfully execute constitutional laws passed by congress. If there was any doubt the courts decided what laws passed by Congress were constitutional.

Since we apparently established a new form of govenment in 2000 that allows the executive to announce laws balancing liberty and security, why don't we save a lot of money and just disband the Congress and the courts?

American Hawk is wrong again.

Parse..

"we do not listen" - But the NSA Voice Recognition Computers transcribe the spoken word into text.

American Hawk

Why blame FISA? Teh FBI never even asked for a warrant to search anything of Moussaoui's.

Nor did they even have to. All they had to do was say "Gee, we found an Al Qaida guy learning how to fly a plane without caring about landing. Maybe we should see if there are some more guys like him out there?" But Nooooo. They blew it off the same way Bush blew off the intelligence briefing.

Of course, it's all the liberals fault, all that.

Yes he is a decider , he is a dictator
You all come see me
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"Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11. "

Got to be the most moronic thing I've read on the Internet(s) in days.

And all this time I thought it was 15 Saudis, 1 Egyptian, 1 Lebanese, 2 from union of Arab Emirates, and 0.00000000 Iraqis.

FBI Secret Probes: 3,501 Targets in the U.S.
May 16, 2006 5:27 PM
Brian Ross and Maddy Sauer Report:
The Department of Justice says it secretly sought phone records and other documents of 3,501 people last year under a provision of the Patriot Act that does not require judicial oversight.
The records were obtained with the use of what are known as National Security Letters, which can be signed by an FBI agent and are only for use in terrorism cases.
The letters require telephone companies to keep secret even the existence of the request for records.
Assistant Attorney General William Moschella told Congress last month that 9,254 National Security Letters were issued in 2005 involving 3,501 people.

This issue isn't going anywere, a so what kind of thing.

I guess Max Boot, a supposed conservative, has forgotten the difference between the government and private industry. The private industry collects personal information and mines it because the customers let them.

Why? So they can focus their marketing and research efforts to provide their customers with better products (I seem to remember an Al rant about this...).

The government collects data to investigate and prosecute, at best. Without oversight, the government can do whatever it wants.

When was the last time a private company threw someone in jail?

Ol' Max has drank the kool-aid good.

Robert, you be nice to Hawk! It is hard HARD work to ignore "Bin Laden determined to strike inside U.S." and go about your vacation!

FBI Secret Probes: 3,501 Targets in the U.S.
May 16, 2006 5:27 PM
Brian Ross and Maddy Sauer Report:

Federal law enforcement sources say the National Security Letters are being used to obtain phone records of reporters {terrorists only?} at ABC News and elsewhere in an attempt to learn confidential sources who may have provided classified information in violation of the law.

ha ha ha!

So, according to Max Boot, the only check that should be placed executive spying should be its own ineptitude? And even then, the spying will be considered legal if it can't be proven that the President didn't have good intentions?

Gotta keep an eye on the damn reporters, whom are leaking what Bush and Cheney "Declassified" and gave to Libby to spread to the Terrorist Reporters such as Judith Miller.

Welcome to Wacko World.

shorter conservatives: fuck you Patrick Henry, I don't want liberty or death!

Because what we need are more FBI agents monitoring quakers while NOT translating intercepts like "zero day is tomorrow."

With crack leadership like this, I'm just shocked that nearly 5 years after 9/11 we haven't been able to catch a 6'6 arab on dialysis.

This is all in line with the conservative agenda which aims to create a heavily stratified nation in which both power and wealth are concentrated at the top.

Bush hates our freedoms. It's possible he is the real head of al-Queda.

Got to be the most moronic thing I've read on the Internet(s) in days.

American Hawk has that tendency.

When you described that editorial as "fatuous," how did I know it was going to be Max Boot? That seems like the perfect adjective for him. I mean, George Will or Robert Novak can be described with many negative words, but that ain't one of them.

The most amazing assumption Boot makes is that FISA is now a "luxury." You can get a wiretap and then consult FISA up to three days later for a retroactive warrant. Three days in the future is now too slow? What, does the Bush administration have a flux capacitor that we don't know about?

Oh, and I have long assumed that American Hawk is a joke troll. I can't believe someone would say stuff like that with a straight face.

Oh, and I have long assumed that American Hawk is a joke troll. I can't believe someone would say stuff like that with a straight face.

I can. Says the preacher:

stultorum numerus est infinitus. (Vulgate, Ecclesiastes 1:15)

Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11
WTF?

Jack Balkins has an interesting post up on the "National Surveliance State" which shows how even if Bush is telling the truth about the limits of this program, the limits cannot last in the face of fear. The pressures to avoid the limitations of the criminal justice system are just too great.

AMERICAN HAWK: Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11.

By the way, I'm curious... of the approximately 8,000 children who will starve to death today (and every day) in the world, how many would a predatory bird like yourself say have it coming?

Of the more than 100,000 people who will die this year as a result of medical malpractice, how many would an aggressive peddler, er, hawk, like yourself say had it coming to them?

Of the 50 million uninsured Americans who die by the thousands because they receive poor or no prenatal care, or because they can't afford prescription drugs, or because they wait until it's too late to seek treatment for heart disease or other serious illnesses, how many of them would a vile, smug, cowardly, ignorant, dirty bird like yourself say deserve to die prematurely?

How many of the 100,000+ innocent men, women and children savagely killed in Iraq by your pukish cult leader would you say deserved it, American Bird of Prey?

3,000 people five years ago, eh? 3,000 innocent people, yes. 3,000 people whose families were paid millions of dollars. 3,000 people whose memories are constantly honored. 3,000 people who are used like trophy corpses by your depraved decider who would as soon see you and anyone you care about die in prolonged agony if it meant it would save him so much as a moment of inconvenience.

Go peddle your putrid, ugly lies somewhere else, you squawking huckster.

Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11.

So enlighten us, American Chickenhawk, when did a FISA court reject a warrant to search Moussaui's laptop? With sources, please (reputable sources, not Max Boot).

The fact is, it never happened. The FBI ignored pleas from Colleen Rowley to investigate Moussaui. No FISA warrant was requested, so no warrant was approved. In the entire existance of the FISA law, less than 1/10th of 1% of requests were rejected.

Nice try, asshole. Next time try coming here with facts.

So if a judge kisses it all is well? All judges are infinately wise protectors?
We have a provisional right to privacy in our homes, but to claim the right to yell down the block and require government to pretend they don't hear is absurd on the face of it. Kinda like O.J. shouting "I killed the bitch" to Rosie Greer but Ito not allowing that as evidence hecause Greer was acting as a clergyman. As for the Moussaui thing, no FISA was requested because the firewall forbade it.

So if a judge kisses it all is well?

Well, yeah. that's why they spend all of those years learning the law, so they can (metaphorically) kiss your warrant and say all is well. That's how our justice system is supposed to work.

We have a provisional right to privacy in our homes, but to claim the right to yell down the block and require government to pretend they don't hear is absurd on the face of it.

Maybe, if that's what were actually happening. What's actually happening is that the government is actively seeking out private calls made by people in their homes and keeping record of them.

As for the Moussaui thing, no FISA was requested because the firewall forbade it.

Dude, WTF? We had Moussoui dead to rights if anyone had bothered to read the reports from the agents involved. One actually said he was the sort of guy who would fly planes into buildings! We didn't need to track his calls, with a FISA warrant or without.

"[The] Chicago Tribune - the midwest's premiere producer of toilet paper substitute and litter box liner."

Apparently TCinLA has not come across the St. Louis Post-Disgrace.

How is the Dow going American Hawk?

So if a judge kisses it all is well? All judges are infinately wise protectors?

Oh, no, Uncle Gene, it would be much better to let a Republican President kiss it. It's he who is the infinately [sic] wise protector, so there's no possibility of misuse.

Go back to your Professional Engineering. It's a shame that someone who lived during the Roosevelt and Truman administrations now genuflects at the altar of such ultra-mediocrities as today's GOP clowns.

"Max (Das) Boot" is a parody, right?

It's okay, Kevin. I think I see your problem. You really mustn't read anything Max Boot writes! The man is a danger to others and himself. Steer clear.

American Hawk: Were it not for FISA's high standard of "probable cause," the FBI could have examined Zacarias Moussaoui's laptop in August 2001 and perhaps saved 3,000 lives.

Oddly enough there were no FISA court rejections for the year 2001.

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/fiscshort.html

From 1979 to 2002 there were no rejections whatsoever. From 1979 to 2004 there were 5 rejections for 18,732 requests. So that's less than a 1% rejection rate. Obviously American Hawk is right and the FISA court presents a unreasonable hurdle to our pursuit of terrorists.

Walter E. Wallis: As for the Moussaui thing, no FISA was requested because the firewall forbade it.

Actually, no. It appears that bureaucratic incompetence prevented them from asking for a warrant that most likely would have been granted:

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17395leg20040518.html

FBI agents did not seek a FISA warrant because - even though Moussaoui was connected to a foreign rebel group - national security bureaucrats said FISA could not be used because the rebel group was not a "recognized" foreign power. They were wrong. Congress' own investigation of the pre-9/11 intelligence problems found those government officials "misunderstood the legal standard for obtaining an order under FISA." The "foreign power" standard requires only that the government show probable cause that the person is an agent for some foreign government, foreign political faction or organization, or group involved in international terrorism - which can be as few as two individuals. A group involved in international terrorism need not be formally designated as a foreign terrorist organization (as these officials mistakenly believed) to be a "foreign power" under FISA. Whether the foreign power is "recognized" is legally both irrelevant and meaningless.

As alwyas the devil is in the details, and holding the system accountable for its mistakes would actually make us safer, as opposed to using our phone records to make an even bigger pile of info for our agancies to sift through. What we really needed was timely and accurate analysis coupled with a clear understanding of the laws and tools available to pursue the terrorists. But I'm sure the Bush administration has got that licked now.

If that little shitbird American Hawk comes around here again, why don't you all just let me know.

His particular brand of mindlessness is beginning to really piss me off.

And this:

Because liberals were concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists, 3,000 people died on 9/11. George Bush is trying not to let such concerns cost yet more lives. Naturally, Kevin Drum et al are trying to stop him, probably because they figure more dead Americans will allow the democrat party to score cheap political points.

is wrong on so many levels, one has to be impressed by the sheer number of distortions it manages to encompass.

Let's count: liberals to blame for 9/11 (1) because of their concern for civil liberties (2) for terrorists (3); George Bush's disregard for civil liberties a life-saver (4) for all Americans (5); Kevin Drum et.al. attempt to prevent afore-mentioned life-saving (6) because more deaths of Americans will be good for the Democratic Party (7)!

And that's just pointing out the obvious. I don't even want to get into the mind-bending aspect of applying post-9/11 concern for civil liberties retroactively to 9/11 itself as a causative factor...

White House to brief House, Senate panels on NSA wiretaps

Bush blinks. Again.

Man of principle.

Man of courage.

Bwhahhhhhhhahhhhahhhah!

Now, remind me again how the White House had already "briefed appropriate members of Congress?"

If they've already briefed appropriate members, then why are they briefing ones who are obviously inappropriate?

It appears that bureaucratic incompetence prevented them from asking for a warrant that most likely would have been granted

This isn't even one of those difficult areas of fuzzy legal rules. All that it would have taken to get this one right is to read the text of the law.

The government has filed a motion for summary judgment in at least one of the cases against ATT.
LOng version: (Those portions that arnt classified in any case)
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/GovMotiontoDismiss.pdf

Short version: The case should be dismissed because the whole thing is secret.

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The idea that conservatives would speak favorably about these types of programs if this was a Democratic administration is absurd on its face. This is all about blind and convoluted loyalty to party, not to America.

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