As usual, the left-wing media narrative-- this time championed by `Leopold-- fails to match with reality. As usual, the weaseling is in full effect.

If Rove is never indicted, TalkLeft will just claim it was part of some deal that's classified. If Fitzgerald does drum up some politically motivated charges, then they were 'right' all along. As you noted, the caveats have already started.

By this time next year, talkleft's story will be forgotten, much like another leftist conspiracy theory you blogged about not long ago: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_04/003722.php

I bet you won't post about this again in a week, when Rove still isn't indicted.

Kevin - at some point, do you feel any embarassment for all the lame Rove/Plame posts??

If you keep repeating right-wing talking points, it makes them true.

This is building into something BIG BIG BIG, whatever happens. There's "real speculation" that Alberto Gonzles' deputy has actually moved to block Fitzgerald's investigation of Rove:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/21/184052/881

Speaking for myself, I just can't stand it any longer! Hunger strike time.

Kevin, I have the same questions as you, and appreciate you raising them here. The previous two posts, by American Hawk and Down Goes Frazier, are not helpful, in my humble opinion. As if the Bush Administration has a better record than Kevin Drum or even Truthout. You have much more credibility, in my opinion, and Truthout has been much closer to factual reality than the Bush Administration. Given how BushCo denied any involvement of Rove et al on the Plame matter, they have no credibility in my book. Still, American Hawk and Down Goes Frazier persist in their delusion that you are the one who is deluded, when you only ask a perfectly reasonable question.

Keep up the good work, and please disregard the ideologues from both the left and the right...

I wouldn't characterize the "credibility implosion" on either side as being galactic. Leopold has some long-standing, uh, issues with the veracity of his reporting.

As for Rove and his lawyer, "Gold Bars Luskin," I think yo'd be hard pressed to find many people who hold either of them credible. (Especially Luskin, who once accepted payment from a client in the form of gold bars and then tried to claim that he found nothing unusual about that after the Feds went after the gold as part of his clients ill-gotten gains.)

PS, I don't think he'd do this unless Fitzgerald wants to indict Rice and Bolton along with Rove.

Comments?

As usual, the left-wing media narrative ... fails to match with reality.

hey, A-Hawk, where are the WMDs?

Jason Leopold has been making unsubstantiated sensational claims for years. He has zero credibility It's ludicrous that with his baggage, anyone still takes this laughingstock seriously.

One side or the other is wrong on a truly spectacular scale and is now set up for an implosion of credibility on a galactic scale.

You exaggerate everything.

it continues to be strange that Leopold claims to have multiple sources on this story and no other media outlet has even one

Isn't "common" a better word here than "strange"?

The administration's tall tales on WMD vaporized, and they duly won the subsequent election, business as usual. But some blogger gets caught pre-announcing something and it's credibility loss on a galactic scale?

That says it all, Max. Maybe truth is the first casualty of war, as the saying goes, but a sense of proportion sure can't be far behind.

Frankly, I'm just hoping for Fitzmas in July . . . or June . . . or May . . . Let's make *every* day fitzmas!

An indictment was handed out ten days ago and no one, absolutely no one but Truthout knows about it?

Come on. If you can believe this then you are capable of believing that Bush made an honest mistake in Iraq, etc. etc.

Rove may one day be indicted, but when it happens the world will know about it -- it will not be the sole knowledge of an oft discredited wash up of a "reporter".

Leopold and Rove lose credibility? Can used car salesmen lose credibility, too? Joe Isuzu? Richard Nixon? George W Bush?

The salient point here is after the truth shakes out, one side or the other will massively *gain* credibility ...

How much Leopold-bashing would continue to go on if he proves to be right?

As for Kevin -- he's properly hedged and is merely passing on the information.

We shall see what we shall see ...

Bob

If anyone is truly interested in following the case, Firedoglake.com is doing a great job of getting copies of court briefs, filings, etc. and putting them through legal analysis. Yes, the trolls will object to the liberal audience of the site, but the hosts of the site, Jane Hamsher and Christy Hardin Smith are looking at the evidence as it is filed in court. They also report on the Leopold, Jeralynn, Luskin, et al public statements. They parse it, and appraise it with realism. Do they hold back with their opinions? Oh, hell no. But they do make distinctions between opinion and fact. And, unlike the right wing troll havens, they use thoughtful, reasoned analysis to come up with their opinions. But again, the "audience" is flame-glo liberal and wants blood (count me in). Take it all with a huge grain of salt (preferrably around the rim of a margarita) and get the best lo-down on the Plame/Libby/Rove/Fitzgerald current events the internet has to offer. An excellent place.

We're sure to know the truth in just 24 hours. I mean 24 BUSINESS hours. Or 24 days! Or 24 years! I'm doubling down. Really! It's an indictment of GEORGE W. BUSH himself! Really! The truth is just 24 hours away!

That reminds me...

a guy I used to work with bet me $10 that Hillary's indictment would come before the '98 midterm elections. And he never paid up...

Or Rove ( cue sinister organ music) never committed a crime.

Perhaps, Wilson knew that from the start but realized that pointing a finger at Karl Rove in the media would fire up a whole lot more poeople to take his side of a Beltway feud than yelling about "Scooter" Libby would.

p.s. Sorry, kevin for plugging another site. It's just that FDL is obsessed with this and has constant updates.

You know I love you, don't you?

[And Cubby and Milo love Inkblot and Jasmine!!!]

Robert Earle ~ Typical, cheap, all mouth -no integrity NeoCon. Too bad old school republicans have to live with the legacy they invited in, when the party sold its soul to the neocons.

Kevin,

You are such a punk!

You predicted Rove would be indicted Thursday, like you fully believed the story.

Maybe it was 24 hours to start talking about Cheney.

There is utterly no way Rove is going to roll on Cheney or anyone else. He is utterly immune since he can be assured of a pardon no matter what. What pressure could Fitzgerald put on him with that in mind?

Indictments are public, after a time there really is not room for two possibilities here. Right?

If Rove were to admit guilt, what's next... surrender Rice, Cheney, Bolton, maybe even the Big W Hizzself?

Alan:

An indictment, *now*, before the campaign season gets underway -- which would turn him into damaged goods and any GOP candidate found consorting with him would be tainted by the association in the minds of the electorate ...

Rove might very well consider a GOP majority more ultimately important than taking down a guy who's been a drag on the GOP image since he selected himself for VP ....

Bob

Alan:

If Rove is indicted, like Libby he'd have to immediately step down. And that (at least in Rove's mind) might be of greater consequence to the midterm election than what might happen to the administration if Cheney gets implicated ...

Bob

Bob:

If that happens, it will be the effective equivalent of a youtube.com video of GWB giving Jeff Gannon a blowjob showing up.

cleek: hey, A-Hawk, where are the WMDs?

Ask the CIA.

Truthout's being played. That's the obvious explanation here -- Someone, acting as a 'source' has fed them incorrect info. He hasn't realised they've been played or he doesn't want to admit he got caught out as a credulous fool.

(Alternatively, the paranoid explanation I don't really believe -- Rove /was/ going to be indicted, and got the notice, right before they pulled some force majeur or other maneuvaring to pull his butt off the frying plate. Hence, the disconnect. As I said, I don't think this is the likely explanation.)

Either way, Rove's not going down anytime soon.

If Truthout was right, then something has happened (DOJ internecine warfare, Rove cooperation, or a semblance of Rove cooperation). If Truthout was wrong, then who is really shocked at that? Especially considering the leak-proof nature of the Fitzgerald team.

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biu991 makes alot of sense.

I just breezed through the TalkLeft posts, but the explanation may be that Fitzgerald gave Rove's lawyer's a draft indictment and told them it would be filed unless Rove . . . ? Generally that's a way to pressure a person to flip.

I fear Truthout might have gotten played by a source. I believe they think they have an irrefutable story, here, but it just smells like Dan Rather redo (which, I always felt, smelled like they had been handed bad info as well). If this turns out not to be true, Leopold should out the sources who played him. He has no duty to confidentiality. I don't know why someone would purposely hand them bad information, unless Rove is cooperating, so that they can keep Cheney from playing power politics to shut him up until Rove give Fitz what he needs.

I just don't feel comfortable going out on a limb defending this story.

Democratic Fantasy of the Week:

Bill Clinton for President!

memekiller:

I'd ask this question: Unlike CBS News, the very plexus of mainstream, widely viewed journalism -- what would Team Luskin have to gain by playing a tiny leftie outfit like TruthOut?

Why would they waste their time? If TruthOut's credibility goes bye-bye -- what exactly do they stand to gain? It's not exactly as if everybody's running with this ...

I think this argues, rather, that Team Luskin sees no downside in flatly denying the story. Who'd believe Jason Leopold?

This isn't an argument that Leopold/TruthOut must be right, of course. But it does fit perfectly well with that assumption, regardless ...

It's one thing to imagine a fired journalist sticking to his guns -- what's he got to lose, after all? It's another thing when his organization is 110% behind him ...

This is why I'm keeping a completely open mind about the whole thing until either TL or TruthOut implodes.

Bob

I just think it's a bad idea to believe this is a solid story at this point. So I, too, take a wait and see approach. I'm not sure why anyone would bother handing Leopold bad info. Do they want to deflate the left with a big let-down when it turns out he's getting off scott free (as Fitz goes after Cheney)? Is Rove wanting to divert Cheney's suspicions of him cooperating so he can't bring pressure to bear? I have no idea. The only reason I feel this way is because Truthout seems so darn sure of their sources, so they must have been told this by someone. But at the same time, it doesn't quite fly, for the reasons Kevin mentions, as well as just the smell of this thing... It's just weird. How is Leopold the only one who knows? And if this is such a high-place source, why would they go to Truthout to get the meme out there? Wouldn't you leak something of this magnitude to the NYT or WP?

Given all the available evidence, I'm more inclined to believe Jason (even WITH his baggage) than to believe Rove's mouthpiece on any issue. My only complaint is that this whole thing is being dragged out like a Chinese water torture. Drip, drip, drip, drip. I'm going absolutely NUTZ. I get a sick feeling deep in my gut when I see Bush on TV talking his immigration shit, with that smirk in his face, and MSM people gushing about a "bounce" in his numbers. Oh, yes. Rove has figured out a way of bringing that moron back into the respectable 35 percent level. Drip, drip, drip.

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I know I should avoid linking to anything involving Jason Leopold. Why can't I help it? Somebody stop me before I embarass myself again!

Well, as Kevin says, somebody's lying, and we will eventually know who.

When I read Leopold's first post, I thought "Hmm, this would be cool, but why isn't this anywhere else?" Then, when nothing happened, I thought that the guy and TO had bee played, maybe to see if they could get a larger news organization to bite. Now, I'm not so sure. Why no request for a retraction? Why nothing from Fitzgerald's office simply saying "No, nothing like that happened on that day."?

I still think the most likely explanation is someone is jerking TO's chain. So, pull up a chair, nuke some popcorn, and enjoy the show. No matter the story, it's going to be entertaining.

fercryinoutloud

memekiller:

Well, there are certain things in the TruthOut story that are allegedly objective -- like a media stakeout at Hale & Boggs on Friday and Saturday. My guess is that this source informed all the media and TruthOut was the only one to run with it, because 1) it's so explosive and 2) it's anonymously sourced, and probably by low-level types (I'd guess paralegal paper pushers) in H&B's office ...

It's a matter of time frame. If this argues something major coming out soon, the bigfeet have no problem sitting on it until then. Why not break the story with Fitz's press conference on it?

TruthOut, OTOH, plays to a different constituency -- hardcore Roveophobes and believers in Father Fitzmas. They have every incentive to break the story first, and are just making a non-professional judgement call w/r/t their anonymous sources being credible enough to print their allegations. Plus, if a bigfoot went with it, no doubt those drones would hit the pavement the next day without so much as a request to clear their desks ...

That's, of course, why Howie Zowie Kurtz dumped on TruthOut's "journalistic ethics."

They're just playing by a different standard, is all. Maybe not such a good idea -- but maybe they're really got a scoop.

In any case, it's a major gamble.

Bob

I guess my main point, which I didn't make all that clear, is that the bigfeet avoided running this story for two possible reasons, either 1) to avoid being played by a disinfo psyop out of H&B or 2) to avoid jeopardizing the jobs of the leakers, who could have been low on the food chain.

It may well be that TruthOut is telling the truth -- but being reckless about it, as standard journalistic ethics would have it.

Bob

...and who would benefit from lying about this? ...and who uses deceit as an element of his modus operandi??

Most interesting thing I saw above is that Gonzalez' deputy may be running defense, but other than that, I am still confident that Rove is going down as Leopold said.

Happy Fitzmas to all, and to all a good night!! What are we going to call the fall of Cheney?!?! Fitzmas to the Nth degree?!

Styve

We're sure to know the truth in just 24 hours. I mean 24 BUSINESS hours. Or 24 days! Or 24 years! I'm doubling down. Really! It's an indictment of GEORGE W. BUSH himself! Really! The truth is just 24 hours away!
Posted by: Al on May 21, 2006 at 11:16 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, just like "The next 6 months in Iraq is crucial!"

We're turning the corner.

Just a few dead-enders.

The noose is tightening.

I also want to take this opportunity to say to all the wingnuts:

Yes - William Jefferson is a Democrat, and yes, he's a corrupt bastard, and yes, I hope that, if these allegations are true, the fucker does some hard time.

Got it?

A desire for justice and law abidance in our public service is completely non-partisan.

So when will y'all start cheering for Tom DeLay, Duke Cunningham, Bill Frist, and all the corrupt bastards in the RNC to be tossed in prison?

Corrupt politics, bribery, and cronyism is TREASON. Especially in Defense Contracting, where our Soliders' lives are at risk!

This looks like it has Rove's fingerprints all over it - his standard modus operandi. I'd bet money that Rove fed Lieopld's sources (indirectly) with false "leads".

The Rovester? Indicted!

I thought he was getting the medal of Freedom!

...oh wait.

OBF: I also want to take this opportunity to say to all the wingnuts:

Yes - William Jefferson is a Democrat, and yes, he's a corrupt bastard, and yes, I hope that, if these allegations are true, the fucker does some hard time.

Yes, indeedy. Hang the bastard high if he's guilty. No excuses.

To me, this sounds like a whole lot of wishful thinking from the same crew who thought the 60-minutes Bush memo was the smoking gun. I'm no fan of Bush, but I'll believe Rove's indictment when I see it.

Of all the internet "discussion" of Leopold's credibility -- largely consisting of speculative theories of full-on Leopold detractors who do not have definitive proof of their position ...

... Kevin's post is easily the best one out there.

Why? Given that there's much we cannot know, there's no definitive way to assign the role of truth-teller to Leopold or Rove's minions.

There's the possibility that Leopold was taken in and played by Rove's political dirty tricks. Since Fitzgerald is close-mouthed, you wonder about the availability and reliability of Leopold's sources. On the other hand, I doubt William Rivers Pitt would be so stupid & naive as to play the sucker for questionable sources.

The bizarre spectacle of otherwise capable and clear-sighted bloggers (& commenters) taking Byron York's and Mark Carollo's word over Jason Leopold's reporting just defies rationality -- or the available information. This is NOT to say that Leopold is necessarily correct.

Merely to point out that neither Byron York nor any of Karl Rove's operatives have a toe-hold on truth, let alone a grasp of it. Or rather, there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that York, Corallo, Rove are telling the truth, or capable of it.

In that light, it's absurd to set about disrespecting and maligning Jason Leopold -- without access to the actual facts.

AGAIN, not saying Leopold is right. Just saying there's no one in the blogosphere with actual, verifiable data to disprove what he's saying.

Until Fitzgerald says otherwise, of course.

What are yu talking about, Drum?

The White House side in this, that is the Rove side, would have to have credibility to risk, but they don't.

How many times do they have to blow their credibility for their credibility to be blown? It's getting to be like an analog of the Tom Friedman six month thing.

The passing of several hours can't be said to restore their credibility.

The only side here that could potentially have credibility at risk it truthout. I haven't followed them enough to know.

But it's not like if Rove's side is flat out lying they'll be treated any differently in the media. It'll just be a tactic they used to get a "fair trial."

Really, Drum, you need to get out of California some, and you don't need to spend the time away in DC.

Another Rathergate. In reality liberals always lose, and so have been forced to invent elaborate fantasy worlds in which they win something.

If anyone deserves to be indicted in this affair, it's Fitzgerald. How come we no longer hear cries "over-zealous prosecutor" form the left? Oh, wait, it's not Clinton in the crosshairs (who perjured himself), instead it's a set of adminitstration officials who did...nothing illegal.

Jack Welch was right, liberalism is hypocrisy.

I second obf and shortstop.

If anyone deserves to be indicted in this affair, it's Fitzgerald.

The proclivity of the Bush Cultists to smear anyone -- Republican, military, whatever, irrespective of their long records of public service -- never ceases to astonish.

OT,

But AG Gonzales says that, contrary to previous statements of the administration about the power to set aside the law being inherent in the President, that the executive branch is obliged to follow and enforce the laws enacted by Congress.

Unfortunately, it is just an excuse to pass off responsibility to someone else for their plan to prosecute journalists for publishing leaks, not anything like a serious change of heart and new devotion to the rule of law.

"AGAIN, not saying Leopold is right. Just saying there's no one in the blogosphere with actual, verifiable data to disprove what he's saying."

The burden of proof is on the reporter who makes a claim to back it up.

And Truthout's "partial apology" for Leopold's story: http://tinyurl.com/guzmg doesn't exactly ring with confidence: Note that the apology was for "getting too far out in front of the news-cycle." NNice use of weasel words there.

What makes this case unusual is that the question isn't so much whether the defendant actually did what everyone knows he did, but whether he has enough political power to stop the prosecutor in his tracks. This is really fucked.

The wise will draw no conclusions until the facts of the story are corroborated.

Don't jump the gun.

Bradley J Fikes:

No, that's not weasel-wordage. As I wrote above, that's exactly what I think happened ...

My theory is they got the info from a low-level source at Hale & Boggs who passed it out to the media staked out in their offices. The bigfeet chose not to run it because, veracity completely aside, it would jeopardize the job(s) of the source(s).

So TruthOut feels a tad guilty for putting this indiscreet person (or persons) in employment jep. Standard-issue journalistic ethics sez wait until the story's confirmed.

Just my theory ...

Bob

Leopold, like any reporter, may have contacts with sources that others don't, so I don't see that his integrity should be questioned at this point just because there haven't been other stories. It is also entirely possible that he has been played on this story. None of us know.

We need to keep the following in mind:

- If an indictment is sealed, there won't be an announcement.
- There may or may not have been an indictment.
- There may or may not be an indictment in the future.
None of us know.

So, in the meantime, people should stop throwing insults at one another. Civil and intelligent discourse is certainly more interesting than some of the malignance that's been in evidence here and elsewhere online. Hopefully time will see justice played out correctly.

Give me a break -- FDL has nothing sensible to add on this. They have been bloggin' 24/7 about this and their endless speculation is just as wrong as the rest of them.

Why anyone would question liepold and say that jane and christy have the "scoop" is insanity...

But it creates a great "brand" for the tripe over at FDL.

They have every incentive to break the story first, and are just making a non-professional judgement call w/r/t their anonymous sources being credible enough to print their allegations.

No one should be surprised, look at the condenscending, incorrect fitzmas crap that jane and christy posted 24/7 late last year... Won them a koulfax!!!!!!!!

LOL

But it was virtually never right and didn't add anything to the dialog - but it made them "experts."

Given the way they milked the story into becoming a "superblog" (even though they consistently have nothing meaningful to say), who can blame TO or Liepold.

Why is FDL held up as the "fitzmas experts" and people want to slam TO?

I think most of us know the answer, but its a great question.

aw-k, aw-k, i got it... i figgered it out... it's a george w bush do-over. you know, like making the national guard fight wars so his time in the guard might look like real military service... a do-over... get it. so..fitz got rove by the short and curly, serves him. truthout reports it. george issues a take-back, a little know presidential power he passed last night and retroactived right into the patriot act. you people are dum. dum with a Capitol Dum. 'cause you don't even understand a presidential do-over when you see one. Next you'll be telling me there's no take-backs, no King-George Xs. You are all irrisponsibatible antipatriotical corruptor people. Bleh.

Given how thoroughly in the tank most media outlets are these days, the fact that various editors, etc. are condemning Leopold is damn near confirmation that he's correct.

It's possible Truthout was punked and if so Rove's fingerprints are all over it. In fact, said punking (if that's what it was) would be the strongest evidence that NO indictment will EVER be forthcoming.

When a chicken sees blood on another chicken, it pecks it to death. That's one of the reasons nobody respects chickens.

Lotta fowl lately.