Bill Frist makes a slime mold look like a profile in courage (and competence).

Wedge issue alert!!!

We should put the bill on the ballot in every state that doesn't yet have it.

Same with access-to-contraception laws, including OTC and at all hospitals, and notification of rape victims of the availability of the morning-after pill.

It's gotta be the liberals fault somehow. I'll wait for Al to tell me.

Sure, like transparently being "captives of the Christian Right" has hurt them so far.

Not.

I would like to see more of their gutty bunches. Preferably laid out on cold marble tables.

(Note to the NSA/FBI/CIA/Blackwater: there is no threat here intended or implied.)

I'd like to see an analysis of the bill and the potential impact of this kind of research on the American economy.

Everything else is noise. The "blastocyst = human" idiots can go drown in their own drool.
.

There's a third possibility: Bush can sign the law, then write a signing statement claiming that the law violates his constitutional powers as ruler of the known universe, therefore his underlings are authorized to cut all funding from anyone who dares to harm an innocent stem cell.

Hey! Bill Frist has bigger things to think about. Like the pending SC investigation of his insider trading. Or the pending indictment of Bob Ney. Or how Tom DeLay's troubles will boomerang onto him. Or how he's managed to completely scuttle his own presidential ambitions.

What would good old reagan want?

New York Bathrooms

Actually I would love to see all sorts of things be advanced as actual legislation. Democrats should be encouraging their Republican counterparts to field bills on abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, separation of church and state, divorce laws, sodomy, sex education, evolution, etc. Christians can whine all they want about their 'oppressed minority' status (WTF?), Republicans in Washington can whine about how, if only it weren't for [activist judges, the constitution, the ACLU, liberals, academia] they would be able to get God back into our lives.

Well lets do it. I strongly support that people think of these things in abstract terms - not in terms of "will my daughter die when she sneaks away to a back-alley abortion clinic?*". When we articulate what it means, support plummets, and we can stop pretending that Republicans are going to do these things and that people want them.

*I have heard various stories from a generation ago of Mormon families dealing with the tragedy of daughters that did just that. Safe abortions don't seem like such a curse as you're burying your own daughter.

hey, always do the right thing -- as long as it doesn't cost you votes.

The stem cell issue is probably going to be the decisive issue in the Talent/McCaskill race. The economic interests in Kansas City and St. Louis are strongly in favor of stem cell research and the religious folks outstate are opposed. A lot of people are drawn to the notion of stem cells being the source of real cures. This is not like the gay marriage issue. The proponents of stem cell research are powerful, well funded and potentially represent real economic growth. Talent has been flip flopping trying to keep both his rural base and his wealthy economic Republicans happy. McCaskill has been consistentt. So far the election is a push. Well within the margin of error with a slight tilt to Claire. Pretty interesting race. The stem cell issue could wedge against the Republicans if enough fundamentalists decide that they would rather have jobs and cures than worry about the rights of blastocysts. "High moral principles" are easy to support when all you are talking about is bashing a bunch of faceless gays. Not so easy if supporting your high moral principle might lead to your not being cured of cancer.

I meant "strongly suppose" - I support people thinking in concrete terms.

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Thanks, but no thanks Doc.

Oh, and SPAM ALERT!

Republicans today hate science, intellectual interests, actual facts and real truth. Today's republican party has been entirely over-taken by the forces of stupidity.

Not only do they not understand evolution, they don't even understand addition.

Ahhh! The issue where my repub side clashes with my dem side.

I want stem cell research because the possible medical advantages are so critical but I don't like the idea of using abortion as birth control.
The Morning after pill is a good thing in my opinion. Abortion in cases of rape, incest and to save the life of the mother (to keep her from dying not to save the life-STYLE of the mother) seems like Duhhh.
Oh well, Just my humble opining.

Bill Frist makes a slime mold look like a profile in courage (and competence).

I protest! Sir, in the strongest possible terms, I protest!

You libs never cease to amaze me. If Frist were to bring this legislation to the floor, it would make the ruling party look fractious and divided, and by exposing an area where President Bush's position is opposed by an overwhelming majority of the American public, it would make the Administration look weak and thereby boost the confidence of our enemies.

What Frist has actually done by running and hiding is to ensure that Bush's edict on stem-cell research remains the law of the land, thereby solidifying Bush's image as a strong leader. But I guess you liberals would rather have your precious stem cells and whatever groundbreaking medical cures come with them than strength in the War on Terror. Frist has taken a strong stand in favor of avoiding conflict; aside from tearing down the President (and I guess saving countless lives through medical research), is there anything Democrats stand for at all?

Yes, but they're running and hiding in a bold way.

I want stem cell research because the possible medical advantages are so critical but I don't like the idea of using abortion as birth control.

WTF? Here's a sentence that makes just as much sense:

I like driving fast, but I don't like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

Up or down!

They did it for the judges. Where is that gang of 14 when needed?

Up or down!

I like driving fast, but I don't like mint chocolate chip ice cream.
Posted by: craigie

Craigie, Now where do you suppose those EMBRYONIC stem cell come from? Hmmmmmm? Try a little thought process before you respond to a post Craigie.

From what I've seen in the polls, Baldacci isn't a sure bet in november. We need to get stem cells on the ballot over here in maine.

I want stem cell research because the possible medical advantages are so critical but I don't like the idea of using abortion as birth control.

WTF?

Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Craigie, Now where do you suppose those EMBRYONIC stem cell come from? Hmmmmmm?

Uhhhh...God?

Craigie, Now where do you suppose those EMBRYONIC stem cell come from? Hmmmmmm?

Craigie, unlike you, is probably aware of something called "in vitro fertilization", fertility clinics, and the existence of unused embryos that result therefrom.
But you knew about that didn't you? Hmmmmmmm? You're not really that ignorant are you? Hmmmmmmmm?

Now where do you suppose those EMBRYONIC stem cell come from?

umm... nobody has an "abortion" to kill an embryo of less than 100 cells. these embryos are grown in dishes in fertility clinics.

Neutral Observer:

Yes! He is.

Yesterday, you accused the republicans of not caring about policy. Today, they demonstrate that they're extremely cautious when debating questions of human life versus scientific research, and you blast them for being worried about policy, tying it into some bizarre conspiracy theory of political calculation. You're not analyzing the events faithfully; you're just cramming them into your pre-defined narrative.

wow. that was dumb even for you, A-Squawk

Today, they demonstrate that they're extremely cautious when debating questions of human life versus scientific research,

They're not debating, you credulous bozo. They like their leader are running and hiding, since they are too stupid to actually debate the issue.

We'd like a debate. You're too stupid to run one.

Yesterday, you accused the republicans of not caring about policy. Today, they demonstrate that they're extremely cautious when debating questions of human life versus scientific research, and you blast them for being worried about policy...

Well I guess one person's extremely cautious is another person's fractious. But I really don't see how Bush vowing to veto legislation Frist has said he wants to pass demonstrates an attention to policy. Unless perhaps "policy" and "political expediency" are synonomous.

cleek wrote: "wow. that was dumb even for you, A-Squawk"

No, no, it was pretty much up to his usual level of discourse and intellectual thought.

craigie,

I think Lurk is trying to say,
"I don't mind destroying a human embryo for the sake of science and a possible cure to some dreaded desease but I do mind destroying a human embryo for the convenience of someone using the abortion procedure as a form of birth control."

In both cases you are destroying a human life.

Oh, bullshit.

American Hawk nailed me.

Wow, my completely fatuous, satirical, tongue-in-cheek attempt at a typical American Hawk response ended up making substantially more sense, both logically and politically, than American Hawk's actual response. I don't know whether to feel proud or terrified.

Yesterday, you accused the republicans of not caring about policy. Today, they demonstrate that they're extremely cautious when debating questions of human life versus scientific research, and you blast them for being worried about policy, tying it into some bizarre conspiracy theory of political calculation.

In other words, the Republicans' actions indicate they care about politics, not policy, and only your extremely bizarre and tortured logic permits you to claim otherwise. Others have pointed it out before, but this post was really dumb. I don't envy y'all the task of defending the increasingly obvious mendacity, incompetence and corruption of this Administration, but sheesh -- smarter trolls, please.

Clinton Era,

Thank you so much for clearing this question up.

When, exactly, does the human life begin?

The future is in ADULT stem cells--not embryonic stem cells. Follow the money, people. Embryonic stem cells have some value in research, but are at least 30-50 years away from being able to treat afflictions. Adult stem cells are currently being used in treatment. Astonishing new techniques will be announced in the coming months.

AHawk standin -- I'm proudly terrified that you made more sense than AHawk.

Question for long time posters - Is AHawk Charlie??
Because his bullshit and legal nonsense sure sound like that cockroach.

Question for long time posters - Is AHawk Charlie??

I have believed this from the beginning.

Brave Sir Bill Frist ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Bill Frist turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Bill Frist!

He is packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering up
And chickening out and pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge...

Can't we just get McCain to tell the pro-life and pro-choice factions to "stop the bullshit"?

Problem solved.

Thanks Tripp - final an easy to answer question!

Life begins at 5:30 p.m., of course!

Life begins at conception.

A little bit gutty - a little bit slutty - and a whole lotta nutty.

[ala Anita Hill]

craigie wrote: "I have believed this from the beginning."

Unlikely. There aren't any of the verbal tics or cues that our dear friend Chuckles displays. Moreover, the real Chuckles deludes himself that he has a sense of humor, while dear little Hawkie doesn't even bother with such nuances. Now "Cheney," on the other hand....

Dear little Hawkie is just another resurrection of the Al-bot -- long on Republican talking points and short on, well, everything else.

Hey, Mr. Reid could happily put the issue to floor himself and force Mr. Frist to take a position and Bush to veto.

He doesn't simply because a veto-like that would actually help Bush with the base - who are really his biggest problem right now.

So Frist gets to twist his way out of an inconvenient position.

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Clinton Era,
Life begins at conception.

Assuming you meant "human life" then I think you are still being a little fuzzy. "Conception" isn't a single moment in time, it is a process.

I'd like to know, in your opinion, when during conception does human life begin?

This is a simple question, isn't it? I mean a good black/white thinker would be able to say "before this moment, no life, after this moment, human life."

Thanks.

Embryonic stem cells have some value in research, but are at least 30-50 years away from being able to treat afflictions.

What a thoroughly moronic and sheep-like bozo statement.

Since the Bush Admin refuses to fund research, we are an infinite number of years away from treatment.

You need to do the research first.

What a moron.

Craigie, Now where do you suppose those EMBRYONIC stem cell come from? Hmmmmmm? Try a little thought process before you respond to a post Craigie.

By and large (and I mean REALLY large)? From fertility clinics - the excess waste of in vitro fertilization. They have huge stocks of the embryos that either have to be stored pointlessly until civilization crashes or tossed wastefully in the composter...or donated for stem cells.

Next point...it is ridiculous to talk about abortion as a means of birthcontrol. The percentage of women who go through serial abortions, one after another after another, because she keeps getting knocked up due to not using birthcontrol is vanishingly small to the point of ignoring it. MOST abortions are not serial. MOST abortions are one-ups that happen because of whatever reason the woman had at the time, virtually all the reasons valid for her (and no one else's business).

Let's drop the abortion as birthcontrol from the argument. It is ridiculous and nonextant. MOST embryos will (and do) come from fert clinics. They have the largest number to offer, bar none.

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