I wonder if this is related to stop-loss. For some people, the easiest way out of Iraq may be to declare yourself a homosexual.

Who said that Iraq and Vietnam have nothing in common?

"Don't ask, don't tell" is of course a ridiculous, unfortunate craven political compromise that likely has done more harm than good. That said, statistics like these are really not too useful and don't really tell the whole story of what is likely happening. If you are seriously regretting your decision to enlist in the army, there are very few things you can do about it. Going AWOL is tantamount to treason and logistically difficult when you are in the middle of Iraq. But if you claim to be gay, there are a host of negative consequences for you, but there is the one big positive of letting you go home. Just as enlisted marriage rates are believed to be artificially high because married soldiers are allowed to live off-base and extend valuable benefits to spouses, other poorly thought out military regulations cause other unintended, statistic-skewing results.

Actually, for service men and women who don't want to get stuck in Iraq asking and telling might be an increasingly attractive option.

If I was stuck in the National Guard and being stoplossed...and I was about to do another tour in Iraq...I would march down to the CO's office in hose and heels and a red dress (with matching pumps and purse of course) and ask him out for a drink. Either I would get out of the Guard or at least I would get some free drinks from the CO.

I am surprised Dubya didn't try this when his number came up.

I must imagine that the military brass have also recognized the usefulness of this tactic and have instituted some safeguards against people lying about same-sex habits just to get out of the Army. Stigma alone doesn't suffice in the age of IEDs and stop-loss.

heh. Kevin said "cannon fodder". Heh. How super-duper insightful, original and edgy of him.

How do the trolls' thought processes work on this one? Can they even process the morality of a gay person being heroic? If a solider kills an islamofascist while simultaneously coming out of the closet, would Jonah Goldberg's head explode?

American Hawk, I'm counting on you to say something stupid and morally bankrupt here. Don't let your country down.

I'm gay.

OK so how does the army confirm the homosexuality of the troops they dismiss? Seriously. They obviously go to great lengths to keep people in service, including the mentally handicapped and seriously injured. So what is the "test"?

Without clicking thru the link...
Is this a result of more asking, or more telling??

Yoo Hoo!! Hey Sailor, new in town!?!

maybe they administer a purity test

Jeff Gannon and I went to see Brokeback Mountain.

He held my hand. It was so romantic.

The policy on gays helps illluminate the odd value system held by many Americans.
http://www.pollingreport.com/values.htm

Apparently most Americans believe that "Homosexual relations" are morally wrong. However, most Americans think sex outside of marriage or having a baby outside of wedlock is morally acceptable. Large majorities say the death penalty is morally acceptible and suicide is morally wrong.

I think it is also unusual that roughly 2/3 of Americans think cloning animals is morally wrong.
Bottom line, rationality has little to do with underlies this beliefs and the policies that flow from them.

That's 726 soliders still alive. I'm suprised they all don't drop their guns and kiss their commanding officers.

Think they are all gay, or just figured out a great way to get out of Iraq?

I'm gay.
Posted by: GOP

Gay Old Party

"If you don't let me out, right now, I'm kissing the sargeant here for a full minute. And then I'm coming for you."

American Hawk, I'm counting on you to say something stupid and morally bankrupt here.

Ahh, but you misunderstimate American Chickenhawk. He fantasizes about hulking soldiers sweaty carrying all or their gear through the desert. He's getting hot and bothered just reading this thread.

"Don't ask, don't tell" just ruins the fantasy for these wacko's. They'd rather make it with a real he-man heterosexual soldier.

Actually, if there's a bright side to this, that's it: 726 is still well below the peak of 1000+ that was normal before 9/11.

"peak...that was normal"? I think a thought became confused in that!

It's a good thing thing we're not at war, isn't it? Or at least, not in a war serious enough to care more about winning than about ridding our armed forces of dreaded homosexuals.

Once again you completely miss the point. Putting homosexuals up against the insurgents in Iraq would be a huge blow to our credibility and would make us look week in the eyes of our enemies. But I guess you liberals would rather worry about gay rights than victory.

Now let's bring American Hawk back in and see what he wrote. Each pair of matching answers is with five points, and whichever couple has the most points in this round wins the Amana washer/dryer combo!

Don't discount that some of these servicemen are pretending to be gay to get out of serving in Iraq. That's how my father got out of Vietnam. Best decision he ever made.

I'm a big closet case. I like to massage my privates...and my corporals and sergeants too.

NEWS:

George W Bush's close personal freind, and largest campaign donor, the infamous Ken Lay, former CEO of Enron - GUITLY on all six counts.

Had he done all this fraud, conspiracy, and lying today, based on Bush's new exemption for any company doing Classified goverment work (and Wade Mitchell can tell you how easy it is to get one of those contracts) - it would all be PERFECTLY LEGAL.

Republican Culture of Corruption.

Who's going to re-decorate Saddam's palaces if we don't have the 101st Interior Decorators to do it?

The Democrat posters in here are truly demented.

Once again you completely miss the point. Putting homosexuals up against the insurgents in Iraq would be a huge blow to our credibility and would make us look week in the eyes of our enemies.
Posted by: American Hawk's stand-in on May 25, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Bullshit. There is no soldier better equipped for killing fascist homophobic theocratic religious fanatics than the Gay American Soldier.

I'm not demented, I am a good koolaid drinking drone who supports Dubya's lies, torture and treason. That's not demented, its quite sane.

I fought the Battle of the Hollywood Canteen during WW2, while those darned libruls were going overseas and getting shot at. I did movies for the Army that featured drag queens. Then I met Nancy, whose nickname was Hoover because she could suck a golfball through a garden hose.

I'm a big closet case too. My nickname at Andover was "Lips" because I was a cheerleader and I kissed the captain of the football team.

I had a male hooker in the White House Press Pool and he used to stay overnight upstairs at the White House.

"If I was stuck in the National Guard and being stoplossed...and I was about to do another tour in Iraq...I would march down to the CO's office in hose and heels and a red dress (with matching pumps and purse of course) and ask him out for a drink. Either I would get out of the Guard or at least I would get some free drinks from the CO."

It didn't work for Klinger. Maybe wearing a fur coat for 24 hours would do the trick.

Can someone give me the derivation of "teh"? I see this all over, and I guess it's one of those "internets" style snarks, but where does it come from?

Thank you.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled food fight.

I'm a big old drag queen.

I'm liberal, I agree that Iraq was a mistake and I also served 10 years.

However, please don't refer to our service members as "cannon fodder" - it just reinforces the perception that liberals are "anti-military".

Can someone give me the derivation of "teh"? I see this all over, and I guess it's one of those "internets" style snarks, but where does it come from?

Common typographical error of "the".

It's kind of a snarky way of saying "this comes from the internet".

I believe it originated on fark.com. Or maybe not. Who knows? Google "teh" and see what the oldest record is?

I had the good fortune to meet a lot of the people in my daughter's unit before they left for Iraq a couple of years ago. One officer was quite openly gay and no one was making any noise about getting rid of her (I'm happy to say). Being the homo that I am, I asked her if she had thought of using it as an excuse to get out of Iraq and she felt strongly about her military career and wanted to stay. As long as you kiss the asses of the higher-ups, they can overlook anything. Apparently, though, if you're a drug addict, the military doesn't mind a bit if you stay. What's a little impaired judgment among friends with M-16s?

On the other hand, I know a woman who was a career military officer of 20+ years who had (and still has) a lifelong relationship with another (former) career officer. They kept their relationship a secret for many years, through separate deployments and stations, but when some underling caught wind of their involvment, they were forced out of the military because this person was so morally indignant. Their exemplary service records mattered very little when they fought the dismissal.

It's a tough thing to negotiate. I wish all gay people would refuse to fight Georgie and the Homophobes' war, but if that's the only way "up" for someone professionally, I sure don't feel like they should put being gay before being financially solvent.

I with Craigie, and have always wondered about 'teh' (and it always seems to be 'teh gay', although there is a takeout indonesian place 'teh Palace' on Piedmont Rd. in Atlanta..)
I know plenty of gay exSoliders (several Marines among them) all of whom got honorable discharges. One former Sargent (now quite a good painter and Art Restorer) has his Marine training yearbook from the '80, and a more homoerotic (if repressed)document you can't imagine...
And the fallacy of "Don't ask" is that at 17,18, 19, you often haven't a clew as to your sexuality.
I know I didn't..

"Teh" is not a typo, it's Leet.

Sorry, meant to include a link...must quit posting while talking on phone. Good thing I don't have gum in my mouth and am sitting still.

Hey, Gaia--good to see you around.

Just remember that our Armed Forces kicked out 9 gay language specialists -- including 6 Arabic specialists -- in 2002. And many more since then.

/snark on

'cause clearly it's more important to rid the troops of gays than it is to keep people whose skills are desperately needed.

/snark off

It didn't work for Klinger. Maybe wearing a fur coat for 24 hours would do the trick.

The way my father tells it, by '69 nobody was buying the Klinger ploy. My father intentionally screwed up in basic training until his C.O. was forced to find out what his "major malfunction" was. After refusing to divulge his story after several hours of cajoling and encouragement, he finally admitted that he was upset because his boyfriend back home had left him. His superiors were so embarrassed that he had them so wrapped up in his personal problems, that they gave him an immediate honorable discharge.

Yo, shortstop. Whatup?

Gays don't make good soldiers? Want to step outside and say that?

'Teh' is l33t? ok...

By the way, wasn't Gannon ex-military? Or did he just pretend. Like Bush.

too bad this wasn't available to corporate klinger. he would've saved a ton on dresses.

'Teh' is l33t? ok...

Loose crossover, not exclusively. Some more knowledgeable people better chime in here...

No, 't3h' is l33t. 'Teh' is merely leet.

Gays don't make good soldiers? Want to step outside and say that?

You bet, sissy boy.

I see no indication externally that we are at war. No sacrifices have been asked for by this president. No tax increases to allow for both guns and butter. No planning has been done to decrease our addiction to oil.

On the other hand, internally we are gradually losing our precious freedoms that the evil doers were said to hate. All they had to do was to kill 3,000 innocents to take away those hated freedoms.

"Discharges of gay men" ??

unfortunate word combination me thinks

is that any different than spreading santorum?
http://www.spreadingsantorum.com/

That's moronic. If Bush really wanted to invade Iran, he'd make *sure* there were gay soldiers in every invading unit, because if the Iranian government won't even let their national *SOCCER* team play soccer against *Israel*, why would they let their soldiers fight against *GAY* *AMERICAN* *(mostly)INFIDEL* *SOLDIERS*?

Or at least, it'd be a hilarious threat to wield in saber-rattling/talks, on a number of levels.

So what is the "test"?

The test, a penile plethysmograph, is sold by conservative millionaire Loren Parks, the primary fundraiser for the anti-tax activists Kevin Mannix and Bill Sizemore. The latter has a wiki entry (and passes the test with flying colors)

No kidding.

More on Parks here:

http://www.wweek.com/popup/print.php?index=7461
http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=2754
http://www.blueoregon.com/2006/05/if_money_is_spe.html

He's already dumped a half million into the Oregon primary this year (No limits on corporate or personal contributions).

President Bush today announced that since gay marriage poses an immediate threat to American society, he will immediately begin sending troops into Massachusetts & San Francisco to liberate marriage from the gays.

“The gays pose an immenient threat to the well-being of the US and we will not tolerate such powerful legal rights to a group that has Weapons of Ass Destruction” said Bush in a morning statement.

Bush followed with the statement that even if we do not find W.A.D. in SF or MA, that’s okay because being gay is wrong anyway.

- © D. Vega

I obsessively scour every thread. Yes, I am a supreme loser. And gay.

Reino nailed it! Bet a lot of these are violations of the "don't tell" part of the deal.

Scheduled for another tour in Iraq? Oops, I just let it slip out that I'm gay.

"Putting homosexuals up against the insurgents in Iraq would be a huge blow to our credibility and would make us look week [sic] in the eyes of our enemies."

Yeah, cuz everyone knows it is so much harder to kill a straight soldier with an IED.

Say what you will about the this war, or the American military, and the current policy regarding homosexuals, but be honest about the fact that no powerful military organization in history has been less likely than the current American military to use men as cannon fodder. Kevin's comments are a despicable slander, and reveal a fundamental contempt. It is akin to homophobes who slander all homosexuals by asserting or insinuating that they are child molesters. Really disgusting, kevin.

I love discharging gay men.

TEH - 1. Affectation favored by people who want the world to know they're ub3r k3wl. 2. Word used by bloggers to refer to people who think they're ub3r k3wl. 3. Something that happens when Kevin Drum types too fast.

How do the trolls' thought processes work on this one? Can they even process the morality of a gay person being heroic? If a solider kills an islamofascist while simultaneously coming out of the closet, would Jonah Goldberg's head explode?

I'm assuming you are lumping me with the trolls.

I know plenty of gay military. No one I know really gives a shit. I'm guessing the numbers are up above the norm right now because folks are using it as an easy out from the military.

Ahh, I see Cal Gal hit it already, and Reino. I agree.

"Ronald Reagan": I fought the Battle of the Hollywood Canteen during WW2, while those darned libruls were going overseas and getting shot at. I did movies for the Army that featured drag queens. Then I met Nancy, whose nickname was Hoover because she could suck a golfball through a garden hose.

Hmmmm, must be the Alzheimer's. Don't you remember your first wife, Jane Wymen, saying in the 60's "Ron convinced me to be a Democrat, and I still am". And GE convincing you that there was more money on the dark side.

Matt: It didn't work for Klinger. Maybe wearing a fur coat for 24 hours would do the trick.

From his looks, he had a fur coat even when undressed.

CalGal, RSM and others nailed it. Until we know how many of the discharges were voluntary (i.e., the servicemember chose to announce that he is gay--truthfully or otherwise--in order to get a discharge because he just wanted to leave the military), the statistics are basically meaningless. It's plausible that as the stigma of homosexuality declines, increasing numbers of straight servicemembers will exploit the current policy to secure an honorable discharge before their contract expires.

As to gay warriors, check ou the Sacred Band of Thebes. Undefeated for 33 years until nearly wiped out by the superior army of Phillip and Alexander of Macedon.

I completely disagree with the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy and I find it curious that during this time of war that we can afford to lose qualified and trained military personnel. If I were into reading tea leaves, I might be inclined to believe the recent rumblings that the administration will reduce troop deployments in Iraq before the end of the year. Certainly the fact that this is the first increase in discharges since 2001 is a mere coincidence, right? Regardless, the policy is deplorable.

more observations here:

www.thoughttheater.com

Where's Al? I've been looking for his comments for the past couple of days and haven't seen any. I miss the right wing SOB!

There's a word for anyone who still believes the current administration has any interest in or even believes in any such thing as a 'war on terror' ... it rhymes with truckers.

He who speak last speaks best. Oh, and I'm gay.

I love to wear my fishnet stockings while I'm discharging gay men.

My severe OCD has kept me from maturing into a full human being.

Gay?

I'm living in the mid-West and there are still people who don't know they're gay themselves, if you hit them over the head with it. There is sooo much homophobia and homosexual unawareness at the samne time it's unbelievable. And that's in the Twin Cities. Heaven help "out-state"!

As to the armed forces, if nobody had decided to make an issue of it, it would have gone on the same as it always has --since the Greeks, or before -- quietly. NONE of your Business!

So you're taking the position that dismissals are both lower and higher?

Got it.

My husband just found out his 55 year old brother in the National Guard is being deployed to the Persian Gulf in July. In 2003 they didn't send him due to health reasons, but now they are...

Jesus Christ. What a mess.

Jesus Christ. What a mess.

Posted by: JoyousMN on May 26, 2006 at 12:24 AM | PERMALINK

Good grief. I have never been a trooper, but it really doesn't take much imagination what they go through if you've ever been scared in you life for your life. A little reality.

Last night I went to bed to hear the 37th MN death in Iraq. On his 3rd tour and wounded last time there. How much do you have to give?

My sister was thinking in WWII, Vietnam terms. All 18-21 year-olds majority of deaths. I showed her how many older guys, the proportion of NCOs. etc. This is not your usual war. It is damaging the Army, Reserves and National Guard.

I've put up with enough ignorance from the Right-wing pro-war shits. Shed Your Own Blood!

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I'm for keeping gays in the army and transferring them into some really appropriate high risk infanty role like the Sacred Band of Thebes. There's no problem so they won't be mixed in with regulars. And if anyone says gays can't fight, they can take on the Sacred Band in a wargame.

I'm just not sure automatically moving gays into high-risk front line roles, would be taken as non-discriminatory.

Kinda sad to hear that 1st Lt Alexander Macedon was released from the military yesterday because of the infamous "don't ask, don't tell" program.

Thought he had shown excellent leadership skills when his lst Cav unit wiped out the Sacred Band of Thebes at Chaeronae.

Might have become a great General.

"Cannon fodder", eh? Thanks, Mr. Drum.

I believe the correct leetspeak phrase is "teh ghey." It's all deliberate misspellings and letter switching for the purpose of text filter evasion....

"I'm surprised Dubya didn't try [cross-dressing and asking his CO out for a drink] when his number came up."

What makes you think he didn't?

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