Frequency nailed it!

What's with liberals' obsession with white collar crimes, especially by enterprising and highly successful white businessmen that form the cornerstone of the immensely affluent society that we have built on their backs?

Nothing these guys have done negates the important contributions that they made to the well being of so many working Americans by providing them with opportunites for meaningful high paying jobs.

Christ, I see I've already been here. Well, here I am again.

I'd like to see Richard, Kenny Boy and Jeffie sharing a cell. That'd be some bitchin' reality TV.

Kevin, it's premature to say that you are wrong; the sentences have not yet been handed down.

Joe: True enough. And I suppose an appeal is possible too. But let me hold out hope for a better America at least for a little while.

And in Texas too. Whatever next - GOP midterm losses?

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe for one thread, people could resist the temptation to respond to the Hawkbot, thus avoiding turning the entire discussion over to this boring-ass troll!

I hope that, like Tyco's Dennis Kozlowski, they start serving time immediately, instead of after all appeals are exhausted.

shorty, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Welcome back to the fray, by the way.

American Hawk, are you for real or are you doing a poor and unfunny job of copying Steven Colbert's act?

Enron was a provider of meaningless high-paying jobs; under their rule, their company shifted from being a provider of energy-related services to a provider of phony financial shell games. Their flaming collapse did major damage to the city of Houston, their employees lost their life savings, and their shady dealings wrecked the finances of the state of California. They were not good businessmen or good capitalists, they were criminals. And that was a conservative jury from a red state that convicted them; all jurors with the slightest anti-business leanings were excluded.

"Both Lay and Skilling could face 20 to 30 years in prison, legal experts say."

Ouch.

Whoa there Kevin. They haven't been sentenced yet.

All of this under a Republican President with close ties to at least one of the defendants. What is going on? Will there be a pardon in November? Is somebody in the government really interested in ending organized white collar crime? Who is next?

Nothing these guys have done negates the important contributions that they made to the well being of so many working Americans by providing them with opportunites for meaningful high paying jobs.

Sure there's something that negates that. All of the meaningful high paying jobs that were lost, along with the employees' 401ks and stocks and investment accounts, because the leveraged, fraudulent, and criminal house of cards pimped by Lay and Skilling.

Now, I don't feel particularly sorry for those people to be honest: they were fine with screwing over California and other electricity consumers when the fruits of those actions were inflating the retirement funds and stock options. But to present those jobs as some insuperable benefit that outweighs the crimes committed by these men simply ignores the fact that those jobs are now gone, reduced to a skeleton staff that's still interring the crumbling bones of Enron into its well deserved grave.

I live a few blocks from the condo where Lay now resides. I sure don't thinkthere will be any partying going on there. What a (deserved) fall from grace.

During the late 80s and throughout the 90s, Lay's (and Enron's) name was everywhere. They funded museums, the opera, the symphany ,plays and concerts (and the Repubican party).

At the time of the great unraveling it seemed so catastrophic, yet our arts community here in Houston has recovered well and moved on and has learned a valuable lesson not to depend too much on one source of funding.

Sigh...

Once again, Kevin Drum's liberal paranoia is undermined by the facts. The evidence against the defendants was strong, the law clear, and the trial fair. This time next week, an appropriate sentence will be handed down, Rove will be unindicted, Hastert will not be under investigation, and the democrat party will still be wrong on almost everything.

The best part: The defendants were in no way black, so we don't have to listen to liberals complain that the criminal justice system is racist. If they WERE black, we would have heard Sharpton ranting by now.

I know. Shiny objects or something, I don't know...

It's an exellent example of the bad driving out the good, that's for sure.

Richard Hatch didn't pay his taxes?

Doesn't that qualify one for a Presidential Medal of Freedom?

Am Hawk: I fully expect you to turn out to be some sort of deranged performance artist.

The pain that the Crooked E caused to local (elderly) shareholders, who had been convinced to load up their retirement accounts on the stock of a local company done good lead by this aw-shucks good-ol-boy son of a country preacher, is real and significant. It was nothing short of an laborate ponzy skeme.

I hope they get stiff sentences. But it is incorrect to say they turned Enron into merely a financial shell game. The stuff that Enron did well and that served an actual need is still being done--just by different companies. After all, natural gas has to get piped around the country by someone. Fastow's "special purpose entities" were a shell game that were designed to disguise truly bad investments--the power plant in India, Enron broadband, etc. This fraud (and the cover-up--including lying to analysts) was fundamentally what the trial was all about. If they had stuck to gas pipelines and trading, they might still be around today. Their ambition, hubris, and mendacity doomed them. Good riddance.

As Thoristotle mentioned in another thread;

Everything Lay and Skilling were found guilty of today, would be LEGAL if done today, and if Enron had a contract doing classified work for the government. Bush made it so.

So, how hard do you think it would be for Enron to get a "classified" work contract? Brokering oil in Iraq for CIA assets? No wonder these contractors are climbing over eachother to stuff money in congressmen's pockets.

American Hawk- had your avian flu shot?

Gamers have a word for this:

PWNT.

It's an exellent example of the bad driving out the good, that's for sure.

Well, said.

I've enjoyed this blog for so long because of the relatively low noise-to-signal but comments like The best part: The defendants were in no way black begin to have the intended effect of destroying this blog.

Even the blatherings of Al have provoked interesting dialog but this kind of comment is simply vile. Eventually the value of openness has to be balanced with demands of responsibilty and Kevin could stand more policing.

"highly successful white businessmen that form the cornerstone of the immensely affluent society that we have built on their backs?"

Funny, I thought the HSWB's you refer to built their success on the backs of average, hardworking men and women. That's why you and I are different. I care about people. You blindly worship money and power.

Hey AH-

I wonder why there aren't any corrupt black CEOS of major corporations? must be liberal bias.

what's that you say? beyond Richard Parsons, you can't actually think of a black CEO of a major American Corporation? Liberal Bias in the media, I'm sure.

and there is no connection between Denny and Jack, none whatsoever. Everyone knows that.

Fastow's "special purpose entities" were a shell game that were designed to disguise truly bad investments--the power plant in India, Enron broadband, etc.

. . . and this is the same tactic AT&T uses to inartfully conceal their violation of your civil rights, by selling your personal information to a third party so that it can go to the NSA.

It's not money-laundering, it's information-laundering. It's taking advantage of a legal loophole to invalidate the Bill of Rights. And they can go on TV and say, with a straight face, that they're not giving your information to the NSA. (they're laundering through a broker).

I wonder where a find company like MCI Worldcom learned tactics like these?

I think the least bad option is registration (sorry, fake tbroszs) and the nifty feature that lets you just skip the comments of posters you despise.

Otherwise, it's just going to be a bunch of RNC robots talking to themselves, and a handful of liberal teenagers that can't resist arguing with a brick wall.

Eventually the value of openness has to be balanced with demands of responsibilty and Kevin could stand more policing.

I really appreciate the fact that Kevin doesn't delete posts. But a registration system would cut down on the noise and, depending what he used, allow you to put the truly-not-worth-your-time crowd on "ignore." I'd gladly give up my occasional Hot Lesbian Cheerleader and Joe Biden/Joe Lieberman posts (never in the same room--I took chemistry!) if I could skip reading some of this crap.

Ah, craigie, once again we share a brain.

"Both Lay and Skilling could face 20 to 30 years in prison, legal experts say."

...and not some "resort" prison either. They're going to Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

I'd like to see Richard, Kenny Boy and Jeffie sharing a cell. That'd be some bitchin' reality TV.
Posted by: shortstop

Why is Skilling a chubby chaser?

Well, with one of the principal sources of international terrorist funding now convicted, all we have to do is bankrupt Halliburton and they'll be forced to beg for a living on K Street.

shortie and craigstop, er...

I don't see how registration would cut down on the Persistent Idiots or the folks for whom said idiots' posts are an irresistible red flag.

Registration would end the false use of someone else's 'nym, but I don't see how it would deter the PIs. Do you think they are unwilling to put a valid but rarely-used email where their mouth is?

S Ra -

No, that's true. Though it would deter the Al-bot, which really is a perl script that just generates RNC talking points.

But registration gets rid of all the stupid fake tbrosz crap, and the Frequency Kenneth idiocy, which is useful.

And then it allows you to introduce the real problem solver, which is let each user block the posts of robots he's not interested in. Things like the AH add absolutely nothing but noise to this place, and if I could never see another one of those idiotic posts, I'd be happy.

Though it wouldn't solve the problem of reading other people responding to its gibberish, I'll grant you that.

Anyone laying odds of pardons from the White House some 900+ days from now?

I would love to know that I am really reading the real tbrosz. I really like many of his posts. Often wrong, but always thoughtful. I would love to see the end of the various Al-bots. I like to think there is enough of a community here to do without artifical contraversy.

Registration is the way to go.

Hey, S Ra,

As craigie says, registration would (or should) cut down on stuff like Frequency Kenneth's 15 alter egos. But what I'd really love about it is the ignore feature. Yeah, people would still respond to the PIs. But since quite a few people are likely to put the PIs on ignore, presumably those responses would dwindle as well.

So let's see. The pardon list for Jan. '09 (or earlier):

1. Scooter
2. Ken
3. Jeff

Who else makes the cut? Karl, I suppose, if he does get convicted. But there must be more.

Shorter Kevin Drum coment thread: How can we more effectively censor opinions we disagree with? Sorry kids; this isn't a college polysci class. The stoned prof isn't there to act as mommy and rescue liberal talking points from the brunt of logic.

I wonder why there aren't any corrupt black CEOS of major corporations? must be liberal bias.

When prosecuting a black defendant for white collar crime, the media narrative would inevitably turn to how the 'good old boys' are taking down a black man who broke into the "white men's club". I'm sure there are corrupt black businessman, but liberal racism makes prosecuting them more trouble than it's worth.

I'd gladly give up my occasional Hot Lesbian Cheerleader and Joe Biden/Joe Lieberman posts (never in the same room--I took chemistry!) if I could skip reading some of this crap.

Aw, I'd never want to give up your HLC posts. :)

That said, registration could also cut down on the pernicious Chinese spam. As to skipping crap, simply putting the name of the poster first -- which should be trivially easy -- would greatly facilitate the proces. "Oh, look -- it's Don/GOP or Charlie/Cheney/Chuckles -- we can skip their bullshit."

I would love to know that I am really reading the real tbrosz. I really like many of his posts. Often wrong, but always thoughtful.Posted by: Ron Byers

That's got to be a mighty lonely club there, Ron. Just you, Cheney/GOP/Al/Charlie/Don P. and, . . . Wow! Actually, just the two of you.

If my math is right the total possible years in prison for Skilling is 185 and for Lay it's 165. Even with a kind judge both are looking at twenty plus years. With Skilling in his early 50's and Lay in his late 60's - both will either die in prison or if not be lucky to have ten or so years of freedom.

As noted I hope the Boy-King does not pardon these two losers.

JeffII, why do you want to start a fight. Still stinging because I asked you to grow up?

Things like the AH add absolutely nothing but noise to this place, and if I could never see another one of those idiotic posts, I'd be happy.

Ignore the troll, and eventually, he'll get bored and go away. I'll admit I love baiting the Chickenhawk, but I'll make more of an effort to ignore him. His posts are becoming less fun, anyway.

I'm actually in favor of some kind of registration system for comments, as well. I find it extremely annoying when someone hijacks another person's name for satirical purposes. It's not funny, because there really is nothing someone can say in satire that is more over-the-top than the actual comments by people such as American Hawk. Satire should involve exaggeration.

I wet my bed and pick my nose when no one is looking.

I think no one is looking.

JeffII, why do you want to start a fight. Posted by: Ron Byers

Because you really aren't on our side, and prove this by stating that T-Bone's posts are both "thoughtful" and worth reading. Again, I think you're in a pretty small club with those sentiments (sediments?).

You know, some folks say that this registration/ignore thing would be about not seeing divergent opinions. But that's not true.

We want to see actual, thoughtful opinions (or else something funny). What we don't need is regurgitated cartoon talking points grafted onto every subject.

Tbrosz skirts the line. He is trying, bless him, but he just can't quite get past the idea that when good things happen, that's conservatism for you, but when bad ones happen, well, that's just human nature and what'ya gonna do?

There are a few others who contribute something. The rest are just wasting everyone's time.

I really appreciate the fact that Kevin doesn't delete posts. But a registration system would cut down on the noise and, depending what he used, allow you to put the truly-not-worth-your-time crowd on "ignore."

Another alternative could be a Slashdot-style optional registration feature where everyone not registered posts as "Anonymous Coward".

Even without adopting a Slashdot-style community moderation system (or a dKos-style one, for that matter), that would be useful, as "Anonymous Coward" could work just like any registered handle, in that you could filter it out as well.

If my math is right the total possible years in prison for Skilling is 185 and for Lay it's 165.

If your math involves adding up the maximum sentences for the various offenses, then even if the math is right, well, that's not how federal sentencing is done.

Nothing these guys have done negates the important contributions that they made to the well being of so many working Americans by providing them with opportunites for meaningful high paying jobs.

Making thousands of peoples' life savings disappear doesn't negate the fact that they built their company on lies and imaginary profits?

There's conservative logic for you.

With all due respect to Marian, I think of you more as Friar Tuck or Alan-a-Dale.

American Hawk:

You're right - we shouldn't prosecute these guys for fraud, lying to their investors, etc.

We should just let them go free, because, for a while, they so generously offered jobs to people (while esentially robbing them of their retirement).

Boy, I've seen stupid before - but "yer speshul."

I don't know.

Sometimes I like to hear the wingnut talking points on issues. Just to figure out how to respond.

In this case, the only talking point seems to be "liberal media and courts are racist because they never go after black white collar criminals".

It's cases like these when I know they have nothing to contribute, that I'd rather they just bow out.

cmdicely:
I tend to like slashdot's method - but then again, I filter all Anonymous Cowards, and read at "5" (who's got the time to read at a lower threshold?)

Tbrosz skirts the line. He is trying, bless him...

No, he's not. He's not trying. You have to get past this beautiful dream of yours, craigie.

Shortstop, the problem is that without looking at the email address we never know which "Tbrosz" is talking. The real one, or one of his several wacko impersonators.

I don't have that problem, Ron. I've been wrong about a tbrosz impersonator exactly once--and a quick e-mail check set me straight.

The real one, or one of his several wacko impersonators.
Posted by: Ron Byers on May 25, 2006 at 3:02 PM | PERMALINK

They're all whacko. And they all serve the same purpose for me - to check the rightwing zeitgeist. Even if it's satire, it's still close to home.

Shorter Kevin Drum coment thread: How can we more effectively censor opinions we disagree with?
'American Hawk'- you couldn't be more wrong. Speaking for myself, I frequent conservative blogs in order to get a different perspective.

You must be truly naive if you believe that internet forums with absolutely no standards are the most valuable. Anonymity of the internet
puffs out the chests of even the most cowardly troll and allows them to be a jackass with no repercussions. Once a blog reaches a certain size it becomes necessary that there be repercussions for posting worthless comments.

Sometimes I like to hear the wingnut talking points on issues. Just to figure out how to respond.
OBF- I totally agree. I prefer it when the conservatives are acting in good faith but even the jackasses can be useful to an extent.

"...providing them with opportunites for meaningful high paying jobs"

What's with this continuing crap about the rich providing jobs? The capital provides the jobs. As it would have if it had been in the hands of the non-rich and/or invested elsewhere.

Why WOULDN'T Lay and Skilling skip bail at this point? Surely they have the resources to retire in some non-extradition country? Unless they are counting on a pardon, I see no reason why someone in their 50s with the cash would want to spend the rest of their lives in prison.

Well, since I've never been shy about putting in my two cents on ol' tbrosz, here goes.

I've always said that tbrosz has shown himself to be, unlike many of our resident GOP water carriers, to be capable of debating honestly. But it's to his eternal shame that so often he chooses not to.

I realize that it's tough to put forth an honest defense of the GOP's mendacity, incompetence and corruption, but Lord knows tbrosz fails every time. tbrosz routinely offers up snide and dishonest representations of the positions of those with whom he disagrees, and more than once has made obnoxious and insulting characterizations of the posters here -- once, infamously, accusing critics of the Iraq war of "rooting for America's failure in Iraq" -- and when challenged to point to a single post that supports his allegation, either snorts that it's "obvious" or responds with a telling silence.

Just because tbrosz seems to proof his posts (more carefully than I do, to be sure) and is occasionalyl civil is no reason, IMO, to give him a free pass for his straw man arguments, insulting and unfounded generalizations, and general bullshit. tbrosz has been silent of late, and unless he cleans up his act and apologize for his serial dishonesty, good riddance to him ,says I,

my prediction is a 10 year stretch for each, with perfect timing for them going up the river in the next 6 months. then when W finishes up his term, he can pardon kenny boy and his side kick and they can all ride off into the sunset.

What's with this continuing crap about the rich providing jobs? The capital provides the jobs.
Posted by: denise on May 25, 2006 at 3:20 PM | PERMALINK

Very well put. There are plenty of VERY rich folks who live in third world countries. But because they jealously guard an artificially limited supply of capital, the non-rich do everything they can to get to the US, or other liberalized country, where capital is freed-up enough (ie. not sitting in Ken Lay's bank account in Switzerland) to provide jobs.

Why WOULDN'T Lay and Skilling skip bail at this point? Surely they have the resources to retire in some non-extradition country? Unless they are counting on a pardon, I see no reason why someone in their 50s with the cash would want to spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Posted by: xyz on May 25, 2006 at 3:29 PM | PERMALINK

Easy. They're counting on dismissal on appeal. Or a pardon. I bet Bush pardons them, but makes it an "executive privilege super-double national-security pardon". Either that or they've got the appeal judge all picked out, and yachted-up.

Bush went out of his way to express his complete confidence in Jim Nicholson, the VA Chief whose staff carelessly allowed 26.5 million veterans to be put at risk of identity theft. Bush could have refrained from comment until Congress had conducted its questioning, but no, he endorsed Nicholson and had Snow state that Nicholson wouldn't be tendering his resignation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060525/ap_on_go_pr_wh/vets26_million_ids_14

The pattern is consistent. Bush identifies with screw-ups, and supports them whenever he can. He's merciless on criticism (Shinseki) and disagreement (Powell), but if you're loyal, if you distinguish yourself by looking dimmer than Dubya, you can count on a soft landing (Brown, Chertoff, Rumsfeld).

Can Bush resist pardoning his old friend Lay? I wouldn't bet either way.

Nothing these guys have done negates the important contributions that they made to the well being of so many working Americans by providing them with opportunites for meaningful high paying jobs.
Posted by: American Hawk on May 25, 2006 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

Very Good Khomradesky American Hawkesky
you will get a raise when the propaganda general next visits das Nsa/Cia/Tip/Okc/GWB kommand post hidden somewhere in Arbusto World. Heil!
Heil Heil!

Osama hasn't had sex since in 10 years because every time he sees some Bush he breaks into laughter.

I like to model tbrosz as a series of principles passing through filters.

The principles are that government is evil, and wealth is good - and honest.

Thus, in the absence of the subsequently listed criteria, if something is performed or to be performed by the government he will denigrate it, and if something is performed or to be performed by wealthy private citizens/corporations he will praise it. Anything which reduces the power or scope of government will be lauded and anything which bolsters the power or wealth of the already wealthy will also be lauded.

This then passes through the 'liberals are stupid' filter; if the liberals are decrying the activities of government, then tbrosz will pass on also decrying government and instead focus on the 'failures' of liberals, ideally on a related subject but not necessarily. Similarly for wealth - if the wealthy in question is/are liberal, he will cease attributing positive qualities to them and instead spend all attention on their real or imaginary faults.

Atop this is the 'Bush cultist' filter. Regardless of George Bush's actual activity/statement/baby-eating, tbrosz will support Bush, including all cases where Bush goes against the basic principles outlined above. If Bush expands the powers of government, the 'Bush cultist' filter will ensure that the measure garners tbrosz' support. If Bush goes against the interests of the wealthy... okay, that never happens.

Therefore, any tbrosz posts on the above are easily predictable and likely to be filled with falsehood.

However, as noted by other commentators, his comments are generally well-written. And it must be admitted that on any subject not covered above, such as book reviews or, well, I'm sure other topics come along now and then, then tbrosz's comments are not entirely predictable and also not inherently mendacious.

There, that's easily 2 cents worth.

Chicks dig me.

well Am Hawk, what about when they turn into the hen layin eggs? you silly conservative ostrich you, head in the ground and still trying to claim the sky.... I don't think so......

Why are they not scheduled for sentencing until september????

Why are they not scheduled for sentencing until september????
Posted by: obscure on May 25, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

What I don't get; is why Martha Stewart committed her crime AFTER Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling did, and she was caught, investigated, indicted, tried, convicted, sentanced, and released all before Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling even got indicted.

Atop this is the 'Bush cultist' filter. Regardless of George Bush's actual activity/statement/baby-eating, tbrosz will support Bush, including all cases where Bush goes against the basic principles outlined above.

I think you're onto something, S Ra, but IMO the Bush Cultist is tbrosz' first filter. After all, Bush == Tax Cuts, the one principle in which tbrosz truly seems to believe.

Why are they not scheduled for sentencing until september????

For maximum election damage, of course. These guys belong to BushCo and the GOP.

The Enron case was much, much, more difficult to prosecute than the Martha Stewart case, which was why Stewart served her short sentence prior to these convictions. If Causey and Fastow hadn't flipped, I doubt whether Lay and Skilling would have been convicted, and it took time to flip Causey and Fastow. The U.S. Attorney's office in this matter is to be congratulated.

Why are they not scheduled for sentencing until september????

Or else, they are waiting until Gitmo is closed, so those guys don't have to go there. I would volunteer to pay more taxes just to put those guys there, BTW.

northzax: Not sure what your point is. Are we having trouble coming up with CEO's in American corporations who are African-American (other than Richard Parsons of Time Warner)? If so, I guess we aren't paying very close attention.

Chenault (American Express), Davis (Alliant Energy), Davis (Wachovia - Atlantic Region), Easter (Duke Energy Field Svcs), Fudge (Young & Rubicam Brands), Harper (GE Equipment Svcs), Horton (Absolut), Lewis (K-Mart), McCann (Starcom Americas), O'Neal (Merrill Lynch), Otis (Darden Restaurants -- Red Lobster, Olive Garden, etc), Packer (Entergy New Orleans), Thomas-Graham (CNBC), Thompson (Symantec), Trotter (GE Consumer & Industrial), Wood (Crompton -- chemicals).

7 of the 17 are also Chairmen of the Board, 3 of the 17 are females. Glad to help you out here.

It will be interesting to see what President Bush has to say today, given his past denials regarding his long friendship with Lay. After all, when the Enron scandal first exploded, President Bush on January 10, 2002 offered one of the biggest whoppers of his presidency:

"I got to know Ken Lay when he was the head of the-what they call the Governor's Business Council in Texas. He was a supporter of Ann Richards in my run in 1994. And she had named him the head of the Governor's Business Council. And I decided to leave him in place, just for the sake of continuity. And that's when I first got to know Ken."

Sadly, a mountain of correspondence between the Bush and Lay suggests otherwise.

For the details, see:
"Bush Lies About Ken Lay."

I agree with Ron on the subject of tbrosz. I don't feel that it's a requirement that someone agree with me to have a discussion with them. I find the fake tbrosz posts more irritating than the real ones. Some of the other posters are just perl scripts regurgitating talking points. Those I can do without.

"Our laws will be enforced just as vigorously against corporate executives as against street criminals," said Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty. "No one is above the law."

Or.....Not!

The White House had no comment on the verdicts except to congratulate the Justice Department for winning convictions in a "highly complex" case. Lay was a major fund-raiser for President Bush, who gave him the nickname "Kenny Boy."

Heckuva job...K.B

"The administration has been pretty clear - there is no tolerance for corporate corruption," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

Exceptions.....CEO of USA

To those critical of Bush for associating with Lay ....

Wasn't Lay recognized by virtually everyone, including magazines, analysts, peers in the corporate world, as being a terrific CEO heading a marvelous company? Only after the Fortune article in March 2001, and Skilling resigning in August 2001 did the bloom start coming off the rose and Enron start unraveling in a way that we could see.

How was Bush supposed to know prior to and during his 2000 run for President that Lay was a crook? We can criticize the system and all those who play in it for backscratching with the rich and powerful, but that's different than saying Bush (or anyone) should have known the guy was a crook underneath all the tinsel and glitter that WAS Enron.

Terry, that would make some sense, if it wasn't for the fact that there is a one-to-one correspondence between associating with Bush and being a criminal scammer. Just look at the VP, for example.

I don't think Bush actually knows any honest people. Whenever he meets one, he works very hard to drive that person away.

Cragie: I don't really buy that; I think the guy is just a bozo who has a poor poop detector in terms of people. But you have a point in that there certainly seems to be a high "scumbag" and "cronie" to "regular or admirable" ratio among those hanging around in this administration, pretty much like in the last one. It's mind-boggling to consider that we've been in this kind of "low common denominator" mode for the best part of 14 years, and counting.

Maybe I should take heart that we keep on keeping on as a society, in spite of the craptastic stuff going on in what passes for "politics". Or ... pour a stiff drink and watch a flick or something.

What's that?
Texas meted out some justice?

The deuce you say!

And a Republican Justice Department at the helm?

The deuce you say!

I thought u leftie's thought that he'd get away with it because of Enron's links to the Bushitler and the Priory of Zion?

Maybe u guys are all nuts.

McA,

The deuce you say!

(It even rhymes.)

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The press here in Houston seemed to feel that the Sept 11 sentancing date had to do with the defense trying to use 9-11 in their defense .. or at least that is what at least one reporter brought up. Got to say I didn't pay that close attention to the trial to have caught the reference myself so I am only reporting what I heard on the radio when it was announced that the verdict came back "guilty". But I will say that you never know what is going to happen during sentancing ... the variation in sentancing for the same crime just varies so much in the federal court system sometimes you can't find any reasoning to it. Would like to think that they would at least get 10+ yrs but we will see.

What I don't get; is why Martha Stewart committed her crime AFTER Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling did, and she was caught, investigated, indicted, tried, convicted, sentanced, and released all before Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling even got indicted.

Because her crime was a lot more straightforward, direct, and personal.

Couldn't get a fair trial in Houston. Send them out here to California. We will give them a fair trial and won't make them serve 30 years in prison. WE WILL PULL THEIR RIBS OUT WITH RED HOT TONGS!

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