Kevin - In our system, those who do wrong are almost always brought to justice.

Yeah, right. And now we're wwaiting to see how rdw and the other warmonkeys spin this into a good thing.

Few blots, you say? Did you forget aerial bombing's collateral damage? Or the entire unnecessary war?

Take responsibility v. try to hide the act - what would our Commander in Chief do? OK, Bush may not have been directly involved in this coverup but he is supposed to be the one leading by example.

And Sadam assassinated his own citizens. Now we do it. Somehow us Christians are just so much better when we do it.

It's not the crime, it's the coverup.

In this case, it's the coverup that tells the world who we really are.

It is, I suppose, only a tiny blot compared to the carnage that Iraqi militants inflict on each other every single day in this endless and brutal war, but this one is our blot.

We're winning the hearts and minds!

Get your umbrellas ready! Any day now we're gonna get pelted with flowers and chocolates!

Who would ever dream that these kind of things could happen during a war? That these things inevitably happen should be considered before wars are started based upon a bunch of lies.

From the linked article:

//A delegation of angry village elders complained to senior Marines in Haditha about the killings but were rebuffed with the excuse that the raid had been a mistake. TIME learned about the Haditha action in January, when it obtained a copy of Thabet's videotape from an Iraqi human-rights group. But a Marine spokesman brushed off any inquiries. "To be honest," Marine Captain Jeff Pool e-mailed McGirk, "I cannot believe you're buying any of this. This falls into the same category of AQI (al-Qaeda in Iraq) propaganda." In late January, TIME gave a copy of the videotape to Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. After reviewing it, he recommended a formal investigation. The ensuing probe, conducted by a colonel, concluded that Marines, not a bomb, killed the civilians but that the deaths were the result of "collateral damage," not deliberate homicide. Nevertheless, after reviewing the initial probe, senior military officials launched a criminal investigation.//

In other words, until a major American media outlet showed up with documentary evidence, this event officially did not happen.

Which, of course, immediately raises the question of how many similar atrocities have occurred, but which have failed to clear this significant hurdle?

Time article:

The possibility of a U.S. massacre of Iraqi civilians could have major ramifications. It could further diminish support for the United States through the Arab and Muslim world, where America is already held in notoriously low regard. And the massacre could accelerate American opinion against the war. During the Vietnam War, the My Lai massacre of what may have been as many as hundreds of South Vietnamese civilians helped turn the tide against the war. In that case, initial Pentagon reports similarly dismissed the possibility of a civilian massacre.

Although the numbers of dead in Haditha come nowhere near My Lai, in an era of instant communications, the impact for the United States could be far worse. And given that the revelations of the possible massacre comes as Saddam Hussein is standing trial for ordering the massacre of Shi'ites when he was leader of Iraq, the timing couldn't be much worse.

Or better, depending on your politics.

What the Marines knew, and when they knew it:

//"It's been six months since this happened," Murtha, who was one of the first congressmen briefed on the incident by Marine officials, said today on ABC's "This Week." "It's very simple: They went out the next day, they knew there was something wrong. Two or three days later, they decided that these people were murdered. . . ."//

It's not true, it's not true! In fact, according to the the commenters at your grrlfriend Ann Althouse's blog, Murtha is a bloviating traitor for bringing all of this up!

If you try to tell her otherwise, there is a good chance she will just delete your comment while letting the "Murtha is a traitor" comments stand.

Since she is a law prof I would believe her over you.

How come you don't link to her more often? Doesn't she crave your link love? Why don't you go over there now and leave her a message wishing her and enjoyable Memorial Day?

(Is grrlfriend spelled with three r's or four?)

Anything wrong with holding the kllers responsible for the killing?

Al Qeada deliberately kills Iraqi civilians for years on end, and Kevin Drum doesn't care. There's a vague possibility that our troops may have accidently killed some Iraqis, and he's all over it. Typical.

Yeah, this tragic event really puts it all in perspective, doesn't it. C'mon man. Is this some kind of new 'aggression-lies-corruption-secrets'that we haven't seen yet?

Marine omerta:

//and perhaps as many as nine others in the 13-man unit witnessed the shootings but neither attempted to step in nor reported them later.//

The operating principle here seems to be, "what ever you do, it doesn't count as war crimes so long as the press doesn't get wind of it."

Al Qeada (sic) deliberately kills Iraqi civilians for years on end, and Kevin Drum doesn't care.

That's because this is not true.

There's a vague possibility that our troops may have accidently killed some Iraqis, and he's all over it.

Such a judicious use of modals of probability, when even the US military is no longer denying what happened.

Typical.

A prize for the first troll who uses the Some Bad Apples Defense.

Y'know, now that the Schultz Defense has been ruled out...

American jagoff, I am not responsible for Al Qeada [sic you fucking moron], but I am responsible for our Marines.

I know Al Queada needs to be killed. I would like to think our Marines ought to be celebrated.

american hawk is admitting that these marines are no better than al qaeda.

Actually Kevin, the whole fucking thing is our blot.

It is pretty sad but not at all surprising that troops can snap when they are on their third tour in a completely insecure war zone with no end in sight. Brought to yo by the guys in charge who are so incompetent that one really begins to suspect treason.

American Hawk, shouldn't you be over there relieving some of these guys? You sound pretty able bodied. It's your war.

american hawk is admitting that these marines are no better than al qaeda.

Shock! Gasp! Moral relativism from American Chickenhawk? Surely not!

If this is true, some of the blame must be placed on the civilian leadership. You put our soldiers in harms way without a clear plan, our soldiers are supposed to fight and remain in Iraq until some ambiguous state when Iraq is ready to stand up, you fail to prepare the soldiers for an insurgency, you ask the insurgency to "bring it on" (which NOW he belated admits was wrong), you mismanage the aftermath of the invasion, and because of the incompetence, support for the war has fallen, the majority of Americans now think the war was a mistake. Our troops are clearly aware of all this - they're not dumb - they're aware of public opinion. As John Kerry put it, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Against this backdrop, a unit sees one of their own killed again by an IED, and the anger and frustation boils over and an atrocity like this happens. Certainly, the vast majority of our soldiers are professional and have been performing admirably, but at some point, the frustration must boil up, resulting in tragedies like this. If what happened Haditha is true, then it is the direct result of a chain of events set forth from the day Bush and his PNAC cohorts deliberately devised the scheme to mislead the American people to support the invasion of Iraq.

I fuggin hate you liberals.

@ba al

Yes the problem comes from within the US administration its controlled medias and military. Starting with spreading of the lie that the US army is fighting "terrorists" and "foreign fighters" in Iraq when in truth 95% of all the enemy combatants the GIs face in Iraq, are brave normal Iraqis, defending their country against the real "foreign fighters in Iraq" -> the US military !!!

All the stupid lies of the medias calling the Iraqi People's National Resistance "insurgency" and the resistance fighters "insurgents" distort the reality of the Iraq war.

That's the beginning of the covering of the truth already - and of course it ends in massacres like the eradication of the IRaqi city of Fallujah or US soldiers massmurdering civilians like the recent incident in Haditha.

And by the way. We must not forget that one of the highest Marine commanders had told us in public 2004 (I think it was in 2004) that "Iraqis are people beating up their own women and therefore it is FUN (!) to kill them".

So what in hell do we expect from the US military, and the US marines in particular, when being led and instructed by such genocidal commanders ???

american hawk is admitting that these marines are no better than al qaeda.

Oh, no - they're much better than Al Qaeda.

AQ only managed to wipe out 3000 US civilians - how many Iraqi civilians have the US marines blown away?

It is, I suppose, only a tiny blot compared to the carnage that Iraqi militants inflict on each other every single day

Ugh, what a typical Kevin Drum namby-pamby cop-out.

Remind me again, who not only decided to "take the battle to the terrorists," but is proud and unapologetic about it?

Seriously, gimme a fucking break.

"Al Qeada deliberately kills Iraqi civilians for years on end, and Kevin Drum doesn't care."

Please link to concrete examples of Kevin not caring. Or shut the fuck up, Chicken Shit.

Also, "Al Qeada" never killed a civilian in Iraq until we opened Pandora's ammunition box when Don "Stuff Happens" Rumsfeld dismantled Saddam's army and we handed them the motivation and the weapons to kill us and each other. Glad you're enjoying that.

The site Today In Iraq has reported many many times about smaller versions of this for the last 3 years!

The site Today In Iraq has reported many many times about smaller versions of this for the last 3 years!
Posted by: R.L.

yes, but there weren't any western cameramen, and it didn't involve a missing white girl in aruba, so these atrocities never happened.

Michael Robinson >"...raises the question of how many similar atrocities have occurred..."

Any one with any sense knows the answer is a large number

Every war produces these events; it IS what war IS

Any other conclusion is self delusion of the highest order

The world is about to see the bare belly of the beast so be prepared for reality

And quit whining about it

"If you don't deal with reality, reality will deal with you" - C.J. Campbell

This kind of thing always happens in war. The troops have spent years honing their reactions to hair-trigger readiness. They have been trained to become killing machines, even using absurdly violent video games designed to overcome their natural aversion to killing. And we are surprised when they kill?

The “realists” in the military expect massacres to happen. Just part of doing business. The ensuing cover up is standard operating procedure. The only way to avoid massacres is not to go to war in the first place.

Time to change course. Let’s throw out our exaggerated militarism along with George the Bush. We can continue to be the 21st century’s Sparta, spending as much as the rest of the world combined on our machines of death and expect massacre’s to happen. Or we can greatly reduce our forces and train them to fight defensive wars. What a delusion, that we need this vast military edifice. If we don’t have it, we can’t use it to fight “pre-emptive” wars and kill innocents.

Good luck winning the White House with comments like those above.

Worthless pieces of sh*t are held in higher regard than most of you.

*****************

Once again, I hope the alleged perpetrators, if found guilty, are punished to the full extent of the law. Unlike those above, I would never besmirch those who defend my right to be an arrogant prick at the risk of their own lives.

You're incredibly naive if you think this hasn't been happening everyday at the hands of US forces in Iraq.

The difference is that this time someone emailed the photos to the US and they were reported to the press.

"Bloody Scenes Haunt a Marine"

Member of a unit under investigation recalls a day in Iraq that claimed a buddy and civilians, LATimes May 29

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-marine29may29,0,2620650.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Kevin - In our system, those who do wrong are almost always brought to justice.
Posted by: Frequency Kenneth on May 29, 2006 at 12:20 AM | PERMALINK

There's a vague possibility that our troops may have accidently killed some Iraqis, and he's all over it. Typical.
Posted by: American Hawk on May 29, 2006 at 1:02 AM | PERMALINK

American Hawk, Chicken Hawk, Texas Chicken: You have no idea about war. Not one iota.

Frequency Kenneth: It has almost never happenned, especially to include those really involved.

This is not a joke commment:

There are 2 types of real victims here. The dead victims and the troops involved.

To be a soldier is not to be trained as a policeman or to make subtle judgements. You or me. My budy or you. Shoot to kill not to warn. There is no margin.

This has been going on since the beginning of any and all war. But if you want to cast the guilt, it's not with the troops. Or, at least specifically, not with all the troops. And you can do the officers in too.

So wreck their lives. Who is really guilty? Who is going to pay? Rumsfeld? Bush?

I will support the prosecution of troops who have acted beyond the law. I will support the prosecution of the officers involved. But I would cheer if the ultimate responsibility rested with those truly guilty.

War is a filthy business but is sold to US citizens as a corrective. The press have done nothing to disabuse their public. Disgusting.

Kevin Drum,

You choose Memorial Day to allow your comments section to go (so predictably) to the disparagement of US troops?

Sirs, have you no honor?

Birkel,

That is such an amazingly dishonest accusation. Shame clearly is not in your lexicon. God will judge you for it.

In fact, everyone should notice that this news story has come out at the dead point in the national news cycle: Friday afternoon. At the start of a three-day weekend. Kevin didnt get a blog entry on the topic until Sunday night, so late that the trolls missed their usual pounce.

That the three-day weekend happened to be Memorial Day didnt deter the White House spinmeisters. If you didnt serve in the military, Mem Day is just a good day to sell flags and fire up the BBQ.

To be a soldier is not to be trained as a policeman or to make subtle judgements. You or me. My buddy or you. Shoot to kill not to warn. There is no margin.

Funny that. Use the wrong tool for the wrong job and you get the wrong results.

A side note though. The Brits generally do a lot better job of policing with their military than do the Yanks and there have been numerous stories (at least in the international press) of British troops being absolutely shocked by their gun-happy American allies. A couple points: 1. the Brits are actually trained in this regard; 2. the British troops are on average four or five years older (a big difference at that stage of life). Oh, and (and there is a non-facetious element to this) both the Iraqis and Brits play football.

Unlike those above, I would never besmirch those who defend my right to be an arrogant prick at the risk of their own lives.

Oh, cause the Iraqi Sunnis are coming to take away your freedoms.

There is daft and there is daft and then there is truly, truly daft.

(P.S. There are times when soldiers truly do defend our freedoms. The Battle of Britain - which you guys opted out of - comes immediately to mind).

Birkel, thanks for the laugh though.

troglodyte,
What is this God of which you speak?

snicker-snack,
The Yanks are bad. The Brits are good. And whoever is fighting the Yanks are great. Got it.

You've got to stop this!! I'm going to splutter coffee all over my desk. You need your own gig or something. To heck with Colbert, here comes Birkel.

Colbert the Mighty spoke truth to power. All hail Colbert!

This is bad. People will hang for this, literally.

Birkel, re. your latest entry, nicely, obtusely off target but nah, not as funny as the initial imagery of US troops standing between Sunni villagers and Alabama suburbanites in a desparate bid to retain American freedoms (that was priceless) or the follow-up hilarious willful misrepresentation. Mind, those are high standards to attain to.

Birkel

You do not know God, but He knows of you.

I would not want to be in your shoes before the Creator.

aaron, you're right. It is sickening... and comes with every war. And is part of what so sickens me about so breezily making the decision to fight. Those who did this may well hang. As they should. But had they never been put in this position they may well have been good husbands, loving fathers, productive members of society. More fodder for the right's greater good. To the unconnected: "We'll sacrifice your children." To the connected: "Oh God, sirs, of course no, not your money."

troglodyte,
I fear the Purple Dragon from the Candy Planet.
I have no cavities so I'm in good shape.
You?

snicker-snack,
Yes! How dare I insist on a guilty verdict from a trier of fact.
How dare I, indeed!

"Tiny Blot?" It's an example of what we are doing - this time we got caught.

The whole war is our blot.

Ours.

Yay for democracy.

"Yay for democracy. "

Well, to be fair, June, you're not a particularly good one.

troglodyte,
I fear the Purple Dragon from the Candy Planet.
I have no cavities so I'm in good shape.
You?

The Lord will bide his time. You might want to look at yourself in the bathroom mirror and think more about your soul than about your teeth.

Marines are trained to defend their country through extreme force if necessary; not to engage in nation-building. War is hell; not to be engaged in recklessly.

I’m sure the Bush fascists will find someone like Colin Powell, who helped cover up the My Lai massacre, to paper over this little incident. A slap on the wrists for the sadists who committed these atrocities and a dishonorable discharge and the American sheeple will shrug their shoulders, forget it ever happened and go back to viewing American Idol. Hey, they were only A-rabs, right?

modals of probability

I like that.

few bad apples defense

shit, I'm looking for the "brown non-Christian people probably did something to deserve it" defense.

"Take responsibility v. try to hide the act - what would our Commander in Chief do? OK, Bush may not have been directly involved in this coverup but he is supposed to be the one leading by example.
Posted by: pgl on May 29, 2006 at 12:27 AM"

pgi, I agree with you and will add that if Bush were truly a noble and strong commander-in-chief that he would be right on top of this upon learning of it, confront the individuals and officers involved, and demand that they come clean about what transpired. What are the odds that will occur? I agree with those who speculate that such massacres may already have been occurring right along, albeit on a smaller scale. They just happened to get caught this time. I also agree with those who ask what should we expect, given the circumstances in which the administration has placed our soldiers.

So which poor sap gets to be Lynndie England in this mess?

I would never besmirch those who defend my right to be an arrogant prick at the risk of their own lives.

does that apply to any soldier, any time, even if he/she's retired ?

Birkel, you are so right about the "disparagement of troops on Memorial Day" - Why, we should be celebrating the new movie "Saving Private Karl" - where a crack special ops team infiltrates Fitzgerald's office and destroys any evidence against Karl Rove.

Cover up? - Reminds one of Powell trying to cover up the killing in Nam by the Americal unit.

Birkel @ 4:40am:
You choose Memorial Day to allow your comments section to go (so predictably) to the disparagement of US troops?

So, Birkel: exactly what sort of attitude do you think might be appropriate to express towards "US troops" who have been accused of massacring unarmed civilians (including women and children)? Applause? Commendations? A medal ceremony in the White House Rose Garden?

FWIW, I believe that the -formal- presumption of innocence in a case involving criminal behavior (which this surely is) ought to apply in military as well as civilian instances: but that shoudn't affect one's having an opinion of the magnitude or "morality" of the crime itself.

This isn't my "blot." I protested the war. "Not In My Name" and all that. No, Kevin, this is your blot. Yours and the other "serious liberals" like Josh Marshall. You fucking own this blot, and all the other fucking blots this war has caused. Does anybody really think this is the only atrocity committed by U.S. troops? Give me a fucking break.

I hope this time we do the right thing about it.

Don't hold your breath.

Kevin - In our system, those who do wrong are almost always brought to justice.
- Frequency Kenneth

If that was ever true, it won't be after journalists are jailed for writing stories the WH doesn't like.

We won't see this on network or cable news, but the rest of the world will. As a result they will come knocking on our doors to bring democracy and freedom to their lands.

Tom Lasseter, Knight Ridder's Iraq reporter -- one of the top reporters writing from Iraq -- wrote three months before the November incident that the Marines in west Iraq were exhausted and under intense psychological pressure.

The fault for that not only belongs to the CinC but to all in the top ranks. Illegitimate war. No post-invasion planning. Not enough Marines, Marines not rotated out enough, Marines going nuts. I hope the blame is placed where it belongs. And I want to see a fucking apology -- a real apology -- coming from the very top.

"The few, the proud, the Marines."

Haditha: My Lai
Warner: yet another whitewash
Murtha: right, but so what - the Republicans won't allow Congress to do anything
Congress: laughingstock, because there is no atrocity outrageous enough to get these Republicans to do anything at all

Makes you proud, don't it? Proud.

Commander in Chief: hahahahahha, that's so cute. Worst. President. Ever.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, but if they did it out of rage and for revenge, then it was not "in cold blood".

i'm sure they'll find a few privates to hang, maybe a lt. those who covered up might be reprimanded -- for getting caught covering up.

Where are the trolls?
Send in the trolls...

Horrible incidents like this happen in every war and the perpetrators must be dealt with.

But, what sticks out about this current crop of US soldiers is their creepy, ammoral willingness to record it. Some asswipe takes a picture with his freakin cell phone of this massacre of civilians? Ya think this was before or after the 1 and 7 year old girls were shot? A number of lowlifes take pictures and movies of Abu Graib atrocities and email them all over the place...wtf??

Clearly, part of this can be attributed to easy access to increasingly sophisticated, easy to carry, recording devices, but is there something more sinister at play here? The fact that these people send this stuff around the internet indicates that they...what...believe they will be admired for it? others will think it's funny?clever? brave? appropriate retribution?

We had a saying in my war, after a particularly bad fuck up, that some PFC was really going to catch hell for it. I'm sure the Greek spear chukkers at Syracuse said the equivalent. The PFCs will pay for this. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, at al, will not. They did not pull the triggers. They just put the weapons in the hands of a bunch of poor bastards, blew red,white and blue smoke up their asses, and told them to go do the impossible under intolerable circumstances. Now they must disavow those poor wretched grunts who flipped out. The consequences of this alleged slaughter, if true, will travel all the way up the chain of command, all the way to a couple of SGTs and maybe even a junior officer, who like Lt. Calley of My Lai infamy, will have to endure the horrors of house arrest. But the swaggering, smirking cheerleaders who conceived this misbegotten war will retire with Medals of Freedom and corporate board memberships, which is how we reward fuck-ups who are high on the chain of command.

Hopefully this will begin the process by which the halosn off the heads of "the troops," who increasingly will be seen - not as "patriots" fighting for democracy - but as willful imperial stormtroopers. This is how the rest of the world already views them.

But the swaggering, smirking cheerleaders who conceived this misbegotten war will retire with Medals of Freedom and corporate board memberships, which is how we reward fuck-ups who are high on the chain of command.

A proper memorial day celebration would involve a news broadcast from Iraq and about Iraq only, on ALL networks, cable and radio included, for 24 hours.

Then a tar and feathering for the people responsible for the policy above, and I mean EVERYONE.

Abdul Rahman, 7, said very little about that day. "When they killed my father Walid, I hid in bed," he said.

The Marines are not to blame for Haditha. They were pulled into its malignant vortex by emotions that power all soldiers in combat: fear, anger and peer loyalty. Only a fool would expect these emotions never to escape confinement within warfare's "rules". Most of the time our fighters can toggle respectably between gentleman and killer even as their psyches accumulate damage. I stand in awe of them for such discipline. But there will always be times when the switch fails. Those events are a cost of war, a part of its ugliness. The fools who proceeded with this war while discounting its costs are the ones responsible for the blood of Haditha. We know who they are.

@buddy66

I support your argument 100% percent. See, there was a time when America teached the whole world a lesson about democracy. That was when Americans took up arms and fought the rich, arrogant, racists and liars in the south and liberated the slaves as well as themselves from these nasty racists.

But sadly since then America from decade to decade has slipped back into the hands of these rich, arrogant, racists and liars. Today they occupy America, captured the White House and control the medias. Moreover these rich, arrogant, racists and liars have found a strong ally in the goverment of Israel and together with it they wrecked America economically, politically, morally and militarily.

The only thing good is, that they left you the right to own arms. So it's again up to the American people to restore democracy in the USA, and to show the whole world that the true spirit of America and the pilgrimfathers isn t gone.

Americans also gained independence from the imperialist British Empire only by taking up arms themselves and fighting in defence of their country, and for true freedom and democracy.

That was the first time America teached the world a lesson about democracy and freedom. And you again did it, when you had overcome and locked up the racist south following the American civil war and liberated the slaves.

But as said before, today the challange is even bigger - today instead of the imperial British Empire you have the state of Israel keeping its iron grip on the USA and all free Americans. And the foreign racists are allied to the neo-colonial rich, arrogant, racists and liars this time. Together they highjacked your country, they started with the medias, and finally achieved their aim to capture the White House.

And being honest, I don t believe they will ever leave, if true Americans don t stand up again, taking up arms, risking their lifes like the pilgrimfathers did, and start fighting this real axis of evil, stripping the rich, arrogant, racists and liars, like Cheney, Bush and other criminals of all their influence (including the media tools) and all the money they stole from the US people and returning it to the Americans, while telling the Israeli racists to go home and expelling them from all the key-positions in the US they still occupy, and by doing so not only restoring credibility and the honour of America but constitutional Democracy (!) , leading by example for the whole world to see.

If America is still the land of eternal freedom and the spirit of freedom and democracy is still alive somewhere in it, then the people of America will rise again, and god will bless'm and grant them victory.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060529/ap_on_re_as/no_gun_ri_letter_lh1

"U.S. policy was to shoot Korean refugees.

By CHARLES J. HANLEY and MARTHA MENDOZA, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 43 minutes ago

More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document from the war's chaotic early days has come to light — a letter from the U.S. ambassador to Seoul, informing the State Department that American soldiers would shoot refugees approaching their lines.

The letter — dated the day of the Army's mass killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950 — is the strongest indication yet that such a policy existed for all U.S. forces in Korea, and the first evidence that that policy was known to upper ranks of the U.S. government.

"If refugees do appear from north of US lines they will receive warning shots, and if they then persist in advancing they will be shot," wrote Ambassador John J. Muccio, in his message to Assistant Secretary of State Dean Rusk.

The letter reported on decisions made at a high-level meeting in
South Korea on July 25, 1950, the night before the 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment shot the refugees at No Gun Ri.
[...]"

Fitting.
DSW

Justice needs to be served, but couldn't everyone have waited until after Memorial Day to spotlight this?

but this one is our blot

This and everything else associated with the Iraq War is only a "blot" for those who supported it.

To all those who wished these inconvenient truths either never saw the light of day, or at least not THIS weekend ... I'm curious ... who exactly are you blaming?

Is the bigger offence to the marine corps the massacre of civilians and children by their own, or the fact that it was videotaped, or the fact that it was reported?

... anyone who even questions whether or not this should be reported, even today, has the moral aptitude of a gutter rat.

Nads - I do want it to see the light of day and justice be served (unlike the dittoheads out there), but I think it isn't too much to ask for it not to be emphasized this particular weekend. I don't think that was deliberate either, just part of the flow of events - but of course it will give ammunition to the anti-liberal smear machine.

"This and everything else associated with the Iraq War is only a "blot" for those who supported it."

I wish I could feel as guilt-free as you. I think we 'all' support this war machine known as the US of A in one way or another. Possibly had I gone to jail for not paying my taxes to support this war, or whatever percentage went to it, I might feel a bit less guilty.

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I wish I could feel as guilt-free as you. I think we 'all' support this war machine known as the US of A in one way or another. Possibly had I gone to jail for not paying my taxes to support this war, or whatever percentage went to it, I might feel a bit less guilty.

You can feel however you like. But consider, every time you gas up your car, you fund terrorists. You also subsidize the oil companies that support Bush / Cheney. And if you don't have a car, your failure to sabotage the auto industry has contributed. One could go on and on.

segi at 3:05 yesterday: outstanding.

I do want it to see the light of day and justice be served (unlike the dittoheads out there), but I think it isn't too much to ask for it not to be emphasized this particular weekend. I don't think that was deliberate either, just part of the flow of events - but of course it will give ammunition to the anti-liberal smear machine.

My personal opinion as a veteran is that Memorial Day is not just picnics and flags. It's a day to soberly reflect on the sacrifices that have been made and the sacrifices that are currently being made by our troops. And it's not only life and limb that are being risked (and sometimes lost) by the men and women on the line, it's also their psyches that are at risk. If these Marines did what they are accused of, then they should be punished. But it's important to remember how those Marines got to the point where such actions became possible: the chain of command all the way up to the CinC is reponsible. And ultimately we, the American people, bear responsibility for this too, so it's appropriate to think about Haditha and discuss it over the weekend. Anything else would be an un-patriotic abnegation of our responsibilities.

Kevin - In our system, those who do wrong are almost always brought to justice.
- Frequency Kenneth

Except white males that screw little girls and are too short to serve time in prison.

Friend, whatever the hell you are smoking must have come from a bad batch. Call brownie and see if he can gety your money back!

Thinker, You're almost right. But as an individual you have to choose your fights. As an American, I choose to fight, however cautiously and feebly, the US military/industrial/corporate complex which to a large extent, in my opinion, has produced the terrorism we see today. If you haven't read Chalmers Johnson's 'The Sorrows of Empire' (or something like that) give it a look.

I see several posts here that lump the whole issue of starting a war in Iraq together with the inhumane conduct of some soldiers over there. It should be manifestly clear that these are two different issues. Even with a just war you could have human rights abuses perpetrated by soldiers fighting on the just side. Having said that I question the wisdom of starting a war in Iraq and absolutely deplore the lack of discipline and humanity displayed by some US troops. Again, those are two *separate* judgments.

"My country right or wrong." You guys really are burdened with outdated notions, like patriotism and nationalism. Instead of "love it or leave it" (I'm on my way to the airport), try "hate it and leave it".
Denial: It's not just a river in Egypt. That's in North Africa for those lacking a world map.

For God's sake -- can we at least wait till the facts actully come out other that Murtha's rantings.
Were yall there? I wasn't -- I don't know what was coming from that house and I don't know if our Marines had ANYTHING to do with this -- calm down lefties, you can get Bush on the next story that the lsm breaks all for the good of our Country.

War is a messy process, and in any large war such things are understandable and expected. This does not make them condonable, especially because they reflect a discipline failure and are counterproductive to the mission.
However, in the real world a few lives (ANY lives) don't matter much except to those close to the casualties. Murder really IS normal human wartime behavior, and certainly fits in with the overall Iraqi culture of ethnic hatred and general mayhem.
It is not useful to murder innocents because it works against the war effort, but the cult of silly Western guilt isn't useful either. Punish the guilty and move on. In the ocean of dead a few fish don't matter.

If this is true or not, it is a tragedy brought about by the guerilla tactics of terrorists (they should not be called insurgents). Innocent people are being killed daily and we are numbed to it. Imagine how the soldiers are affected. This is no excuse, but we have to realize that this is a war, and war breeds severe reactions to immediate events for our soldiers involved in its carnage.

US General Chiarelli has ordered US troops to get ethics training before being sent abroad.
Maybe some better advice: give your whole country some ethics training. The world is still not the playground of the USA, so get out of the areas you don't belong (yes the Middle East, Asia and Europe), scale down your armed forces and energy abuse (with the accompanying pollution) and start acting as a good neighbor instead of the school-bully. Maybe we'd like you better then.

For American Hawk:
the investigation is not about a "vague possibility that our troops may have accidently killed some Iraqis": it's about our troops having willingly killed several Iraqi civilians in one occasion that has been discovered. And it's about our troops being proud of this: how else would you explain that they used their cellulars to take pictures of the guys they were going to kill?

Every war has its My Lay massacre. And there's usually a chain of command that gets away with murder by issuing orders that allow denialability.

Have any of you ever been in a firefight or been blown up?? Things change when AK fire is going overhead and marines are dieing but that doesnt sell frying marines does. You have NO idea what happened on that day or what happens at all when your actually in the war you just want to comment from your couch.

This may very well be the My Lai Massacre of the 2nd. Persian Gulf War. I think (Sec'y of Defense)Rumsfeld has to watch himself in this situation. I also think President Bush has to watch his back too, he's close to being a scandal-ridden president. Nixon was most remembered for the Watergate scandal, but 'Nam didn't help too much either.

This may very well be the My Lai Massacre of the 2nd. Persian Gulf War. I think (Sec'y of Defense)Rumsfeld has to watch himself in this situation. I also think President Bush has to watch his back too, he's close to being a scandal-ridden president. Nixon was most remembered for the Watergate scandal, but 'Nam didn't help too much either.

first, to anonymous marine, semper fi; i'd wager you're right that there isn't a real veteran in the whole lot that have commented here.

to the rest of you arm-chair quarterbacks, how about reserving judgement until the facts are made known? all you have now is a few snippets of video and some still pictures that are just a tiny drop in the bucket facts and circumstance surrounding this case. how much does a video camera (or cell phone camera in this case) really tell? not much, and even more important, any idiot knows how important context is to making an accurate judgement. these marines may very well be guilty of criminal action, but for God's sake, give them the benefit of the doubt! none of us was there and none of us really knows what happened yet! what ever happened to the principle of innocence until proven guilty? it really fascinates me to see how many arrogant pricks there are who are ready to pass judgement at the drop of a hat, but won't ever rescind their remarks when the 'facts' are proven blatantly false. the real difference between 'us' and 'them' is that we actually care when our people do wrong, and we punish them accordingly, almost to a fault, as there are many good men and women who thought they were doing the right thing at the time who are spending time in the brig for decisions they made. in fact, believe it or not, virtually all of the marines i know and have known place an extremely high value on life, particularly yours, since that's who we put our asses on the line for. i've never met even one of the blood thirsty caricatures that you have made us all out to be.

finally, to all of you who are so sure that we (the US military) are committing wholesale slaughter over there, don't you know who the military really is? it's your neighbors, your schoolmates, anyone you encounter in a given day could be (or have been) in our military. are you really saying that you're surrounded by heartless killers? can you really possibly believe that it's that easy? what an amazingly stupid lot you must be.