Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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June 12, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

R.I.P. TOM DELAY....Ruth Marcus memorializes Tom DeLay in the Washington Post today and does a fine job. However, I like many others will always remember him best for his reaction to the Columbine shootings in 1999:

Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence. The causes of youth violence are working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills.

The man who said this has been one of the most powerful leaders of the Republican Party for over a decade and was treated seriously by the DC press corps the entire time. Never forget that about either the Republican Party or the press. All the rest is trivia.

UPDATE: Actually, this quote appears to be a paraphrase. The real rant is even more unhinged.

Kevin Drum 1:27 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (95)

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Comments

I don't know Kevin. Is this worse than a guy like Karl Rove being in the White House so close to the most powerful man in the world?

Posted by: nut on June 12, 2006 at 1:34 AM | PERMALINK

That's hilarious and appalling -- if he said it. Are there other sources for the quote besides the Alternet one you link to?

Posted by: rented mule on June 12, 2006 at 1:36 AM | PERMALINK

So what is the color of the sky on planet wingnut?

Posted by: AnotherBruce on June 12, 2006 at 1:54 AM | PERMALINK

Oh jeez Kevin, you can't have a post with that title. My heart tried to jump out of my throat. Uh with sadness, not with joy.

Not with joy I tell you!

Posted by: jerry on June 12, 2006 at 1:55 AM | PERMALINK

If he ain't dead, he ain't resting. Did he die?

Posted by: Matt on June 12, 2006 at 2:02 AM | PERMALINK

That was bracing.

Posted by: Sam Spade on June 12, 2006 at 2:10 AM | PERMALINK

What I want to know, is if all those mothers are taking birth control pills... How can their be youth to be violent? I mean, aren't the violent youth the ones whose mothers DIDN'T take the pills?

Posted by: MNPundit on June 12, 2006 at 2:13 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, look, in a sense he's right.

I mean, I am an athiest liberal who puts his kid in daycare with no apologies to anyone. But, you have to admit that if somehow the regressive world Delay pines after were somehow to come about, there would most likely be fewer violent outliers like the Columbine kids. There would be most likely fewer outliers on the good side as well, with creativity and individual will squelched by an omnipresent church and overbearing authoritarian family structures.

I choose our current world unhesitatingly, but in a sick kind of way he DOES have a point.

Posted by: Zak on June 12, 2006 at 2:27 AM | PERMALINK

Well, what if the causes of youth violence are video games, movies, working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills?

Cheney nailed it!

Posted by: Charlie on June 12, 2006 at 2:32 AM | PERMALINK

Cheney nailed it!

Charlie nailed it!

Posted by: Don P. on June 12, 2006 at 2:34 AM | PERMALINK

Cheney & Don P.,

As always, thank you for your support. You're far more than the shrieking voices of insanity inside my headyou've also become good friends.

Posted by: Charlie on June 12, 2006 at 2:37 AM | PERMALINK

There needs to be easier access to abortion, that would solve alot of the violence problems.

Posted by: Jonesy on June 12, 2006 at 2:48 AM | PERMALINK

Yes, Jonesy -- without Delay!

Posted by: Kenji on June 12, 2006 at 3:06 AM | PERMALINK

I'm amazed somebody agreed with me. I thought I'd get attacked for telling the truth.

It would solve alot of the welfare and poverty problems too.

Posted by: Jonesy on June 12, 2006 at 3:20 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin qouted:

"Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence. The causes of youth violence are working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills."

Then you said:

"The man who said this has been one of the most powerful leaders of the Republican Party for over a decade and was treated seriously by the DC press corps the entire time. Never forget that about either the Republican Party or the press. All the rest is trivia."

How True... The "trivia" being the kangaroo tactics of the Earl group.

THAT is why you lose elections !
Real patriots WILL be vindicated.

POE!

Posted by: Bat Guano on June 12, 2006 at 3:33 AM | PERMALINK

What WILL we do without him? Also, what will the GOP do without him, and without Bush? Die and be reborn in a completely different form, I hope. (I've just been rereading a June 1998 "Atlantic" article by that observant conservative writer Christopher Caldwell, "The Southern Captivity of the GOP", in which he predicted that exactly this sort of thing was coming given the fact that the GOP now consists of an alliance between the firmly anti-intellectual culture of the Old South and the personal interests of America's upper classes, constantly frantic to raise their incomes even further. Even Charles Murray commented in "National Review" back in 1991 on the danger that American conservatism might turn into the "Latin American" variety -- that is, into fascism-feudalism. We really dodged a bullet due to the historically freakish fact that the anti-slavery party later became the pro-upper-class party -- had the anti-slavery party also been the non-upper-class party, a governing alliance between the Old South and this country's rich would have occurred more than a century earlier, at a time when Southern racism was tremendously more virulent than it is now, and the US would probably have become the world's Nazi Germany around 1900.)

Posted by: Bruce Moomaw on June 12, 2006 at 3:59 AM | PERMALINK

Anybody remember what Jesse Jackson said to make him a pariah on the left?

Posted by: Saam Barrager on June 12, 2006 at 4:23 AM | PERMALINK

Anytime you hear some media whore talk about the Republican Party having any new ideas you should pull out your store of Republican Troll wisdom and slap them with it.

This blog seems to be a gold mine of troll dung. It can only be made into comedy gold.

As for Delay, I wept for I had hoped to see him hanged. Not the first to say it and not the last but why waste the effort on the crook.

But, then again. Maybe you are what you kill. Could that be the theme of Tom Delay's life?

Posted by: olvlzl on June 12, 2006 at 6:58 AM | PERMALINK

R.I.P. TOM DELAY???
No, no no! Peace is much too nice and totally undeserved for that a**hole. I say, R.I.H.!

Posted by: Gray on June 12, 2006 at 7:06 AM | PERMALINK

Unfortunately Tom Delay's mother didn't use birth control.

Tom probably uses birth control though - his personality.

Posted by: 2.7182818 on June 12, 2006 at 7:27 AM | PERMALINK

DeLay's wife is evidently into bestiality. I can'imagine any normal woman wanting to get under the sheets with a giant coackroach.

Posted by: Evil Progressive on June 12, 2006 at 8:01 AM | PERMALINK

DeLay, a true American patriot, was merely trying to offer some constructive solutions for how to keep future Columbines from happening, so it figures that you liberals would try to destroy him. Where are YOUR solutions? Oh, right, you have none! So pipe down, or at least show some respect when you're talking about a true visionary like DeLay.

Posted by: American Hawk's stand-in on June 12, 2006 at 8:10 AM | PERMALINK

Zak, no, Delay's just plain wrong. The economist who co-wrote Freakonomics looked at very good data on kids in child-care vs. kids at home with Mom, and there is no difference in school performance between the two groups. Poor performance in school isn't the same thing as gun violence, but this data strongly suggests that kids in day-care turn out just fine.

Delay's swipe at working women wasn't based on data, it was just an emotion-based put-down of people who are a little bit different than him.

Posted by: Mark Gilbert on June 12, 2006 at 8:45 AM | PERMALINK

Kids should stay home with their mother, where the mother belongs.

Posted by: dilbert on June 12, 2006 at 8:55 AM | PERMALINK

There are plenty of links for this quote on the web, however the only source provided anywhere is to that original alternet link. Almost all the other links copy the same wording, without a reference.

Can anyone substantiate this quote? As nutso as Tom Delay is,
"working mothers taking birth control pills" is deep into Fake Tbrosz territory. Lexis-Nexis anyone?

Posted by: Brittain33 on June 12, 2006 at 9:00 AM | PERMALINK

Despite the recent setback, Net Neutrality is still on the agenda for the defenders of the internet, as bill s2686 moves to the Senate. Y'all, if you want to preserve the net from being divided into classes by the telcos, pls call your Senator and demand support for Net Neutrality! You'll find contact info at www.savetheinternet.org .

And at the SF Chronicle, Craig 'Craigslist' Newmark weighs in. He compares Net Neutrality with Martin Luther and Gutenberg. Interesting column:

"What if they gagged Gutenberg?
Big telecom is trying to throttle free access to democratic Internet
"
"Before Gutenberg and Luther, power had been concentrated in very few hands. Now, because of Gutenberg's invention, it was flowing to larger numbers of people. As my friend Wendy Beck, who teaches writing at Lowell High School in San Francisco, points out, pamphlets might be considered the first "plogs," or printed blogs."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/11/INGT6J4PVB25.DTL&hw=newmark&sn=001&sc=1000

Craig is right, information is power. Don't let the telcos dictate your access to it!

Posted by: Gray on June 12, 2006 at 9:00 AM | PERMALINK

OOPS
Not only wrong thread, but wrong blog! Sry, sry, sry..

Posted by: Gray on June 12, 2006 at 9:02 AM | PERMALINK

For DeLay, it was never about anything more than power. I'd be surprised if he even believed half of what he said.

The pain of his legal troubles won't even begin to make up for what this sorry excuse for a human has done to this country, but it's a start. Enjoy, and see you in hell DeLay.

Posted by: Alexander Wolfe on June 12, 2006 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

And Kevin's solution to the problem of youth violence is what, universal health care?

Posted by: Down goes Frazier on June 12, 2006 at 9:16 AM | PERMALINK

I'm calling bullshit on this fantasy quote until someone can produce a real source. Liberals never get tired of explaining how Gore never actually said he invented the internet but will not hesitate for one second to pass on any third-hand apocryphal quote as if it's gospel as long as it slanders a republican. c.f. "The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur" or "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq And I did."

Posted by: Homer on June 12, 2006 at 9:30 AM | PERMALINK

Let's take Mr. Delay's statement apart:

#1) What would happen if working parents didn't put their kids into daycare? Mom (or Dad) would have to quit working. Family incomes would drop. Consumer spending would drop. 2/3 of economic growth is based on consumer spending. Welcome to the depression Mr. Delay.

#2) What would happen if we quit teaching evolution in schools? Nothing... they don't listen anyway.

#3) What would happen if working mothers didn't take birth control pills? They'd get pregnant which would increase the abortion rate, the number of kids on welfare and the number of kids in daycare (and the violence that is caused by daycare... see #1).

Posted by: tripoley on June 12, 2006 at 9:31 AM | PERMALINK

what can one expect from a man that was in the pest control business. his view of the world --its full of pest!

Posted by: CHIGGER on June 12, 2006 at 9:34 AM | PERMALINK

MORE TROLL LORE

Blow a trolls tiny little mind. Don't follow them down the fork in the road they want to take. Refuse to go along and watch the fun. Stay on your chosen path and enjoy the confusion as the little rat runs around the maze trying to keep up with you.

They're not that smart. The smart little Republicans are all making real money somewhere else. And there aren't that many smart Republicans. Would they have let Douglas J. Feith* run anything if there were more of them?

See remark in "Nestlings". He's another fine product of Georgetown and Harvard.

Posted by: olvlzl on June 12, 2006 at 9:37 AM | PERMALINK


Can anyone substantiate this quote? As nutso as Tom Delay is,
"working mothers taking birth control pills" is deep into Fake Tbrosz territory. Lexis-Nexis anyone?

The oldest unique hit on Lexis-Nexis for the phrase "working mothers who take birth control pills" is a June 17, 1999 story in New York Newsday. It reports that DeLay, during the debate over the post-Columbine juvenile crime bill, read from a letter sent to the Paul Harvey radio show because (to quote Newsday -- dunno if they're quoting DeLay here) "it really said it all."

The entire quote does not appear verbatim in the Newsday story. For example, the editor apparently felt that "There is, DeLay declared, the problem of schools that teach children 'they are nothing but glorified apes, who evolution-ized out of some primordial soup of mud!'" was a better line on the evils of teaching evolution than the less-detailed condemnation above.

The oldest unique hit on Lexis-Nexis for "Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence" is a June 18, 1999 wire item from the Reverend Moon's UPI, which credits the line to DeLay and summarizes the rest of the quote as DeLay saying the root causes of juvenile violence are "cultural issues," not legal concerns. The oldest unique hit from a legitimate news source is from the the New York Times on the following day, which quotes DeLay as saying "The guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence" but that he enjoyed debating the cultural issues.

So, my preliminary research suggests that, yeah, he said it.

Posted by: cminus on June 12, 2006 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

My guess is that Bob Somerby will appreciate this post, Kevin.

I'm picturing th headline "Drum finally nails it!" as we speak.

Posted by: keptsimple on June 12, 2006 at 9:45 AM | PERMALINK

So a liberal took a conservatives comments out of context for political purposes? That never happens does it?

Guns have about as much to do with violence as liberals do with putting together a platform with vision.

Posted by: Jay on June 12, 2006 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

If "working mothers" are taking birth control pills, who's having the violent kids?

Posted by: bobbywally on June 12, 2006 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK

bobbywally~

Using the logic that follows, the ones having the violent kids are the ones who are not working and not taking birth control pills. OMG! Stay At Home Moms !!!

Posted by: the atom bomb of courteous debate on June 12, 2006 at 10:01 AM | PERMALINK

Who's having the violent kids?

Christianist Breeders.

Posted by: the atom bomb of courteous debate on June 12, 2006 at 10:03 AM | PERMALINK

What kid wouldn't turn to violence when he becomes aware that despite the righteous and zealous upbringing he has endured his entire young life there are apparently other kids out there who were spare his fate by being aborted or birth-controlled before they quickened.

The phenomena is not much different different from the "straight" husband who's marriage to his shrewish, demanding wife dissolves when he learns there is a world of steamy man-flesh out there just waiting for his carnal desires. Plus beer drinking and race-car watching.

Posted by: Tripp on June 12, 2006 at 10:18 AM | PERMALINK

Let's not forget he also seriously suggested that the solution to Middle East peace was to deport all the Palestinians to their "homeland" in Jordan.

Posted by: Kevstar on June 12, 2006 at 10:20 AM | PERMALINK

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/print

Posted by: Chris on June 12, 2006 at 10:22 AM | PERMALINK

Here's the text of the letter that DeLay read during the congressional debate of 6/16/99, and how he introduced it:

Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that the truth will make us free if we admit what the truth is. Every once in a while, I read something or hear something that blows away all that smoke that clouds a particular issue. A letter written by a Mr. Addison Dawson to the San Angelo Standard-Times is just such a statement. In fact, after I make this statement, I do not think anybody else needs to speak. We just need to vote.

The following is Mr. Dawson's letter, which Paul Harvey read on his radio show: ``For the life of me, I can't understand what could have gone wrong in Littleton, Colorado. If only the parents had kept their children away from the guns , we wouldn't have had such a tragedy. Yeah, it must have been the guns .

``It couldn't have been because half our children are being raised in broken homes. It couldn't have been because our children get to spend an average of 30 seconds in meaningful conversation with their parents each day.

``After all, we give our children quality time. It couldn't have been because we treat our children as pets and our pets as children.

``It couldn't have been because we place our children in day care centers where they learn their socialization skills among their peers under the law of the jungle, while employees who have no vested interest in the children look on and make sure that no blood is spilled.

It couldn't have been because we allow our children to watch, on average, 7 hours of television a day filled with the glorification of sex and violence that isn't even fit for adult consumption.

``It couldn't have been because we allow (or even encourage) our children to enter into virtual worlds in which, to win the game, one must kill as many opponents as possible in the most sadistic way possible.

``It couldn't have been because we have sterilized and contracepted our families down to sizes so small that the children we do have are so spoiled with material things that they come to equate the receiving of the material with love.

``It couldn't have been because our children, who historically have been seen as a blessing from God, are now being viewed as either a mistake created when contraception fails or inconveniences that parents try to raise in their spare time. It couldn't have been because we give 2-year prison sentences to teenagers who kill their newborns.

``It couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud.

``It couldn't have been because we teach our children that there are no laws of morality that transcend us, that everything is relative and that actions do not have consequences. What the heck, the President gets away with it.

``Nah, it must have been the guns .''

He doesn't say "guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence," though, which cminus said was in a UPI story as a direct quote, so maybe he made some other remarks off the floor?

Posted by: The Dead Man's Pants on June 12, 2006 at 10:29 AM | PERMALINK

Even Charles Murray commented in "National Review" back in 1991 on the danger that American conservatism might turn into the "Latin American" variety -- that is, into fascism-feudalism.

The New Yorker's Hendrik Hertzberg has recently made the same point when he commented on "the ongoing South Americanization of political culture north of the bordera drawn-out historical journey whose markers include fiscal recklessness, an accelerating wealth gap between the rich and the rest, corruption masked by populist rhetoric, a frank official embrace of the techniques of 'dirty war,' and, by way of initiating the present era, a judicial autogolpe installing a dynastic presidente...." To which I'd also add creeping militarism, intolerance for dissent, and the creation of a permanent underclass.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060501ta_talk_hertzberg

Posted by: Stefan on June 12, 2006 at 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

What would you expect from an ignoramus who made his nut killing bugs with poison gas? Further, what would you expect the DC establishment to do but embrace the powerful? They worship power more than they worship the Golden Calf, cashmoney. It's their singular purpose in life.

Posted by: Semanticleo on June 12, 2006 at 10:35 AM | PERMALINK

Delay also immediately after 9/11 said the most important thing Congress should do was to cut taxes.

Posted by: hopeless pedant on June 12, 2006 at 10:37 AM | PERMALINK

Semanticleo,

I think the term you are searching for is "mammon," the republican god.

Regarding Delay - are you saying he is Dale Gribble from "King of the Hill?"

Posted by: Tripp on June 12, 2006 at 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

Let's not forget that DeLay also explained his failure to fight in Vietnam by claiming that "So many minority youths had volunteered that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself."

Posted by: Stefan on June 12, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

here are my top-5 favorite tom delay quotes...


"We have shrunk the size of this government." - TOM DELAY 1/7/06


"I have done nothing wrong. I have violated no law, no regulation, no rule of the House. I have done nothing unlawful, unethical or, I might add, unprecedented." - Tom Delay 9/25/05


"Terri Schiavo is not brain-dead; she talks and she laughs, and she expresses happiness and discomfort. Terri Schiavo is not on life support." - Tom DeLay, March 20, 2005


"Duke Cunningham is a hero. He is an honorable man of high integrity."--Tom DeLay, June 15, 2005


"You can support the troops but not the president." -Rep Tom Delay (R-TX) 1999


finally one not from delay...but about him...

"Tom Delay is who all of us want to be when we grow up." - Jack Abramoff speaking to the College Republican Conference 2002

(p.s. in the name of balance...i tried to see what abramoff said at the college democrats conference..but alas...can't find any such appearance)

Posted by: thisspaceavailable on June 12, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Cheney, the point of the above refernces is that you can't blame the Columbine kidsor the existence of Tom Delayon access to abortion. It's what you call your dark humor, and also a kind of basic logic.

Posted by: Kenji on June 12, 2006 at 11:00 AM | PERMALINK

Good to have you back Kevin.

Posted by: JJ on June 12, 2006 at 11:00 AM | PERMALINK

Right now I'm listening to David Rivkin's awful attempts to "justify" our treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and he sounds quite -- no, I mean totally-- nuts.

The nuttiness of the right is sometimes so pervasive and so bizarre that the only response is to laugh. This Tom DeLay remark about working mothers on birth control reminds me of that old anti-Vietnam-war bumper sticker: "Nixon's Father Should Have Pulled Out."

Posted by: PW on June 12, 2006 at 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

Huh? Children are only gifts from God if you're not using birth control?

So, women who choose to go off birth control so they and their husband can have a kid aren't grateful to God for the beautiful, healthy child they had?

Something like half of all pregnancies are planned. You're telling me half of American mothers don't love their chidren...and the evidence for this non-love is that these women had a choice about getting pregnant or not? So, women who made a deliberate choice to get pregnant are, by definition, not grateful to God for their children?

Troll logic is not Earth logic.

Posted by: theorajones on June 12, 2006 at 11:12 AM | PERMALINK

While the guy's obviously a jerk and a tool, what the hell is wrong with the press treating his views seriously? He repeatedly won re-elections, and by a handy margin. Gee is it possible that he and others like him are reflecting the views of many people? Ignorant and odious as those views may be, they ARE in fact held by very many Americans, like it or not, and thus deserve to be treated seriously, and indeed given a certain measure of respect, not the respect given to intellectually or morally reasonable views, certainly, but at least the respect given to views sincerely held by fellow citizens.

Posted by: herostratus on June 12, 2006 at 11:21 AM | PERMALINK

theorajones,

There you go again, refusing to think black/white.

If a woman rejects many gifts from God by using birth control or worse yet abortion she must reject every gift from God.

It is all or nothing, see?

Yes, God gave us free will but with the clear understanding that we would not use it.

Just keep the concept "all or nothing" firmly in mind and many things will become clear.

Posted by: Tripp on June 12, 2006 at 11:24 AM | PERMALINK

Ironic really. Because of the Republican agenda, most families must have two working parents in order to survive. Thereby creating more latchkey kids and no parental supervision enabling disgruntled and discarded and disturbed kids to assemble arsenals in their garages.

Posted by: ckelly on June 12, 2006 at 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

Well, what if the causes of youth violence are video games, movies, working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills?

You'll have to excuse Charley/Cheney/Chuckles. Columbine was a red-letter day for him. TONS of dead kids to make jokes about.

Sick bastard.

Posted by: Vladi G on June 12, 2006 at 11:29 AM | PERMALINK

The thing that struck me in DeLay's announcement that he was dropping out of the race for reelection was that he stated that he felt he could no longer effectively 'represent the Republican voters' in his district.

Got that? Not even the usual hypocritical blather about serving the district...just the Republican voters...and that's what this has amounted to: No representation of any interests but those which put him (and his ilk) in power and maintained them there.

"Being called partisan and vindictive by Tom DeLay is like being
called ugly by a frog." - Ronnie Earle

Posted by: CFShep on June 12, 2006 at 11:30 AM | PERMALINK

So, my preliminary research suggests that, yeah, he said it.

Uhh, no. He didn't. At best this quote is another writer's paraphrase of a letter written by someone else that Tom DeLay read on the House floor. The "quote" in its present form appears to originate from a Nov 15, 1999 issue of (surprise!) The Nation (No. 16, Vol. 269; Pg. 5), which despite not citing a source, attributed it to DeLay as a direct quote. The "working mothers who take birth control pills" language is Marie Cocco's, the author of the June 17, 1999 Newsday piece cited by cminus above. So no, this is not a Tom DeLay quote. Not that that will stop any of you from believing that he said it.

Posted by: Homer on June 12, 2006 at 11:41 AM | PERMALINK

Cheney, I used to be a right winger like you. Voted for four straight GOP tickets. (Ford, Reagan twice, the elder Bush once.) Then I woke up and saw the Republican Party for what it is--a bastion of racial and ethnic bigotry, sickening greed, and pervasive hatred of science, buttressed by an astonishing propensity for lying. I keep hoping more people like you will, too.

For the record:

Evolution by means of natural selection (modified by genetic drift) is as firmly established a fact as any in science. It sits on ground as firm as that of the heliocentric solar system. It is as fully verified as relativity. It is supported by a mass of empirical evidence so huge that no sane or honest person can deny it. To say that we should NOT teach this FACT to high school students is to say that we should keep them ignorant of the truth, and I am adamantly opposed to that.

Second, a review of prison records shows a staggering number of incarcerated people raised in Christian homes. (A study has just been done on the religious backgrounds of those in our penal system, which is where I am getting this. I'll try to find a link if you doubt me.) Should we therefore condemn the Christian faith on grounds that it breeds criminals? That would be preposterous, wouldn't it. Almost as ludicrous as issuing a blamket condemnation of day care.

Third. All adults have the right to contraception. THEY DO NOT OWE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE AN APOLOGY OR AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS. In fact, it is none of your business. The latest right wing crusade is to abolish birth control along with abortion. This is nothing less than a savage assault on the rights of all Americans. My God, who the hell do you people think you are??

Fourth. I am a pro-gun rights Democrat. But I understand that a culture that glorifies guns has a responsibility to keep them out of the hands of kids and unstable people. Kind of like rights and responsibilities going together. Remember?

Fifth. Tom DeLay was as corrupt and dishonest an individual as has ever occupied a position of influence in our government. Read about the SICKENING lies and corruption surrounding DeLay's Saipan dealings (here; scroll down) and tell me that you think this son of a bitch is some kind of paragon of decency.

Cheney, you are the kind of person who drove me away from the Republicans. I'm in my mid 50s, and I can remember a decent Republican Party, the one epitomized by Dwight Eisenhower. The Republican Party has turned into a grotesque, despicable, corrupt machine, the captive of right wing religious fanatics and business interests that don't give a damn about what happens to the average person. People like you, who blindly defend everything about the Republicans, are the ones who are killing America's future, not the "liberal" bogeymen of your imagination. From a deficit that will crush our children under debt to an economy built on borrowed money and borrowed time, from a war handled as incompetently as humanly possible to corruption not seen since the era of the Robber Barons, the Republican Party and its crazed defenders are destroying the country I love. That I will fight this process goes without saying. That you will wake up out of the dream world you live in is less certain, I fear.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 11:44 AM | PERMALINK

"...what the hell is wrong with the press treating his views seriously?"

Agreed. Disparaging Delay's views like this mocks the vast majority of Americans who believe in a nation with Christian values. It's just another example of liberal arrogance. This is why liberals lose elections.

Posted by: Tom on June 12, 2006 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

Joe, don't take Cheney too seriously. He's a shameless troll who would defend David Koresh if it meant getting in a few pot shots on a Democrat...oh wait, that was Jay. Hard to keep these trolls straight.

But I do share your outrage. Thanks for leaving the Republicans.

Posted by: ckelly on June 12, 2006 at 11:55 AM | PERMALINK

Cheney, be that as it may, you have too often on these threads defended the indefensible. I attack the Democrats pretty often if I think they're wrong, but I see them as the only hope now, however shaky a hope that may be. (I'm what used to be called a moderate.) Again, I urge you to examine the real nature of our nation's predicament today, and to draw the logical conclusion: the Republicans need to be voted out, for the sake of America's future.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

Joe, that was excellent.

And Cheney's response - priceless! Why, it's almost like it had feelings or something!

Hilarious - "I once criticized Bush for not trying hard enough to fuck up the country."

Posted by: craigie on June 12, 2006 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

The argument that Republicans are now going after birth control is NOT a straw man. From Common Dreams:

But, sadly, Americans' right to birth control is increasingly threatened. Some ideologues have long wanted to deny women this important tool and bring America back to the days when Estelle Griswold was arrested. Sen. Rick Santorum and Rep. Tom DeLay have both recently suggested that Americans have no real right to privacy.

Indeed, Santorum said that he thought states should have the power to outlaw birth control. And he's the third highest-ranking member of the U.S. Senate.

The radical right is doing everything in its power to block access to family planning. The average American woman, who spends 30 years of her life trying to prevent unwanted pregnancy, has to contend with serious obstacles:

The Food and Drug Administration is stalling on the second application for over-the-counter access for the emergency contraceptive Plan B, despite the fact that the FDA's own advisory panel has advocated for such availability.

The cost of contraception prevents many women from fulfilling their family planning needs. Even if a woman has health insurance, her plan may not cover birth control. Title X, the national family planning program that offers publicly supported contraceptive care to low-income and uninsured women, needs more funding to serve an increasing uninsured population.

At the urging of right-wing political leadership, a growing number of pharmacists around the country are now refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control. Four states have laws or regulations that give legal cover to pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions, and legislatures in 13 states have introduced measures to do the same.

Fewer young people are now learning about contraception at school. Federally funded abstinence-only curricula mention contraception only in terms of failure rates -- which are often grossly exaggerated and factually inaccurate.

Add to this the right's determination to take from us the right to die on our own terms (Re: Schiavo) and you have a conservative attack on personal freedom literally from (before) the cradle to the grave.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:16 PM | PERMALINK

Tom

Exactly which Christian values are you talking about? Gay bashing? Stomping on poor people when they are down? Denying health care to any but the rich? Denying civil rights to people you oppose? Dare please tell us to which "Christian values" do you refer?

Posted by: Ron Byers on June 12, 2006 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

I should add, in fairness, that was not the straw man accusation Cheney was making. However, the Right is still attacking birth control.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:21 PM | PERMALINK

The quote actually isnt a direct quote, however, it is a fair representation of what DeLay said during the debate so long as it isnt descibed as a direct quote. The actual quote of Tom DeLay in which he makes his point clear via sarcasm:

REP. TOM DE LAY, Majority Whip: It couldn't have been because half our children are being raised in broken homes. It couldn't have been because our children get to spend an average of 30 seconds in meaningful conversation with their parents each day. It couldn't have been because our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who revolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud. It couldn't have been because we teach our children that there are no laws of morality that transcend us, that everything is relative, and that actions don't have consequences. What the heck, the President gets away with it. No, it must have been the guns.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/jan-june99/violence_6-17.html

You see support of the exact same sarcasm with the same language approvingly attributed to Paul Harvey at keep and bearamrs.com.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=918

DeLay appologists may shriek, "he didnt say exactly that" but the fact is that it is a fair and accurate representation of the clear intended meaning and deliberate obfuscation of the issues by Rep. DeLay. He may have been reading someone else's letter, but he is responsible for what he says during Congressional debate and his direct support for the ideas expressed is uncontroverted. The fact that he and his supporters try to hide behind such semantic defences is just more pathetic and not exculpatory in the least.

Posted by: Catch22 on June 12, 2006 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

My guess is there really are only one or two trolls who are posting under different names. They are all way too similar in style and "prose". I don't expect substance differences, after all, they read the same script. But with all the fake, satirical trolls, it's hard to figure out what's what and who's who. Sigh.

Posted by: gq on June 12, 2006 at 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

Cheney, overturning Roe v. Wade will NOT stop abortion; it will simply politicize the whole issue even more, and in states that outlaw it, make it more dangerous as women seek illegal abortions.

I am opposed to abortion, too, but I'm a realist. I'm a man. I'm not in the position of a terrified, frequently abandoned young woman who is facing a pregnancy she just isn't ready for. As long as an abortion is carried out before a fetus gains sentience (and thus, in my eyes, philosophical personhood), I can't really object to it.

Conservatives, do you want to have LESS abortion? Then support open access to contraception, and work to improve the economic lot of poor women. Abortion will not be outlawed permanently. Support for keeping it legal is too strong. It will lessened by practical measures that address the issues which underlie it, and moral suasion.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:28 PM | PERMALINK

I should clarify, I dont know that the quote listed in Kevin's posting isnt authentic - it may be, I just couldnt find any other verification of it. The quote I located and sourced in my comment above is authentic and undisputed which shows he wholeheartedly supported the sentiment expressed whether or not he can be pinned down with the quote attributed or not.

Posted by: Catch22 on June 12, 2006 at 12:29 PM | PERMALINK

Cheney, that is a false analogy. Slaves were already born, extant humans who were being treated as chattel. A fetus is an integral part of a woman's body, wholly dependent on it for its survival for at least seven months.

A zygote is not a person. This is a matter of theological disagreement, I'll grant you, but the argument that a zygote IS a person just won't fly with most people. You cannot enforce theology by force of law. And again, abortion, unlike slavery, will NEVER end, law or no law. It's a different issue.

Support access to birth control, genuine sex education, and economic opportunity, and you'll see abortion plummet.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

You dare to bring actual text and quotes into zees forum? We FART in your general direction! Our truthiness-filled made-up quotes are much bettair than your real ones!

Posted by: yourfathersmellsofelderberries on June 12, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

I would point out, by the way, that the Republican Party now draws its strongest support from Southern fundamentalists--the kind of people who, as Kevin Phillips has shown, believe that the wrong side won the Civil War. (American Theocracy)

Face it: southern conservative Republicans are the backbone of the Neo-Confederate mentality. It is their ancestors who most passionately defended human slavery. Notice, sometimes, the startling defenses still being made for the "War of Southern Independence" and you'll see what I mean.

For a conservative to use abolitionism as an analogy to the anti-abortion movement is deeply ironic. Conservatives opposed the abolition of slavery. Conservatives supported 100 years of Jim Crow laws. Conservatives fought the Civil Rights movement tooth and nail. They have no right to claim a proud heritage--abolition--that they so fiercely attacked.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

Catch22:

Kevin's post stated that DeLay "said" the quote in question. He plainly did not and it's ridiculous, I think, to pretend that there's some hard source out there tying him to these words. Instead your argument now seems to be that he "wholeheartedly supported the sentiment expressed" in the letter read on the House floor. But it matters what the sentiment is. Phrased as it is, of course, the quote sounds ridiculous. But the letter was arguing that teen violence is a symptom of a cultural drift away from more traditional mores. While I may not agree with every particular piece of evidence offered in the letter, the overall thrust of the arument is hardly radical. I think it's disengenuous to claim that DeLay believes daycare, the teaching of evolution, and contraception are "the causes of youth violence."

Posted by: Homer on June 12, 2006 at 12:54 PM | PERMALINK

Cheney--As you say, we will have to agree to disagree.

Posted by: Joe on June 12, 2006 at 1:01 PM | PERMALINK

Nice to see you too, craigie ; )

Proof! Cheney is Charlie. There's the tell-tale emoticon.

Charlie used to post incessantly, too, with that annoying stupid wink.

Posted by: Harpo on June 12, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone wanting to figure out who the Christians are should use the handy test Jesus gave, "By their fruits you will know them,". The trolls here are certainly fruity and pretty bad.

"christian" is what I call them in writing, "thumpers" when I'm being polite. For other occasions, anything will do.

Posted by: olvlzl on June 12, 2006 at 1:42 PM | PERMALINK

"...what the hell is wrong with the press treating his views seriously?"

The same thing that's wrong with seasoned posters (I'm providing latitude for newbies) who not only keep reading Cheney's posts on purpose, but actually take the time to respond to them every time?

Posted by: shortstop on June 12, 2006 at 1:58 PM | PERMALINK

P.S. theorajones - children are ALWAYS gifts from God, whether you are using birth control or not - not sure where your strawman was conceived though ; )

Then later, when they die due to some unfortunate accident/disease, the children become fodder for Charlie/Cheny/Chuckles comedy routine. They're like the gifts that keep on giving.

That's O.K., Joe - I am attacking birth control too.

Of course you are. Fewer kids means fewer potential dead kids to joke about.

You are one sick bastard.

Posted by: Vladi G on June 12, 2006 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

For the last time, I've never joked about dead kids.

Ya know, Chuckles, that's the seventh or eighth time you've said that. God is watching. He won't forget all of your lies when the big day comes. Hope you like warm weather, liar.

Posted by: Vladi G on June 12, 2006 at 2:26 PM | PERMALINK

And, that's the 7th or 8th time you've claimed it without any proof whatsoever - so, who is the "liar"?

You're not fooling anyone, Chuckles. And your denials just make you seem more pathetic, if that's possible.

Posted by: Vladi G on June 12, 2006 at 2:50 PM | PERMALINK

Charlie posting as "Cheney" wrote: And, that's the 7th or 8th time you've claimed it without any proof whatsoever - so, who is the "liar"?

Everyone who has been reading these comment pages long enough to have read your comments back when you were using your real name "Charlie" as your handle knows that you are Charlie, and knows exactly what comment of yours Vladi G. is referring to when he talks about you "joking about dead kids". Your denials and your pretense of not being who you are, are among the reasons that I regard you as probably being mentally disturbed.

Posted by: SecularAnimist on June 12, 2006 at 2:59 PM | PERMALINK

If Kevin Phillips' contention about the religious right, the South, and the "lost cause"--as described by Joe--is correct, it can truly be said that the above nexus is utterly un-American.

Posted by: Wombat on June 12, 2006 at 3:04 PM | PERMALINK

Another contemperaneous source for the quote of Tom DeLay:

Further research reveals another source for the quote from Tom DeLay in 1999:

Time Magazine
August 1999
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/1999/08/02/guns.html

"Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence," said Tom Delay of Texas. Compared with his other assertions--that shootings are the product of day care, birth control and the teaching of evolution--that sounded almost persuasive.

Apparently DeLay was quoted after reading the letter of sarcasm into the congessional record.

BTW: Cheney, unfortunately you arnt the only DeLay apologist posting here and not all are willing to accept DeLay said this.

Posted by: Catch22 on June 12, 2006 at 3:06 PM | PERMALINK

"If given the chance to do it all again, there's only one thing I would change," DeLay said, jabbing his finger in the air for emphasis. "I would fight even harder."

Well, you'll get your chance at your trial, hon. (Do we have the gross of popcorn ordered?)

Posted by: shortstop on June 12, 2006 at 3:06 PM | PERMALINK

Here's another typical liberal saying the same thing...:

House Majority Whip Tom Delay addressed Bible-waving preachers on the Capitol lawn, blaming the Columbine High School shootings on "liberal relativism that has hollowed out the souls of too many in our society.'' Later on the House floor, DeLay linked Columbine to the abortion culture and instruction about evolution.

I prefer my lunacy about Columbine from the esteemed former Congressman from Georgia, Bob Barr:

"(i)f the Ten Commandments had been posted at Columbine High School, the April 20 massacre would never have happened."

Posted by: R. Porrofatto on June 12, 2006 at 3:09 PM | PERMALINK

Say, R. Porrofatto! Is that the same Bob Barr that Bushco is now accusing of being a flaming liberal because he dared disagree with something the White House said?! I think it is!

Posted by: shortstop on June 12, 2006 at 3:19 PM | PERMALINK

He repeatedly won re-elections, and by a handy margin. - herostratus

And a lot of dogs eat their own feces or vomit but that doesn't make either particularly good. I imagine those who repeatedly voted for DeLay were not unlike those dogs, compulsively doing something unnatural and wondering why they are left with such a nasty taste in their mouths. But hey, next time it will taste better... right?

Posted by: Eric Paulsen on June 12, 2006 at 3:41 PM | PERMALINK

Well, I looked at this statement, and the first sentence... I was thinking at first, 'Well, he's right on that...' but then the rest?

*sigh*

The rest makes no sense. These boys had mothers and fathers. Mothers taking birth control means they don't need to send children to daycare.

And I don't think these kids even cared about evolution.

What a moron.

Posted by: Crissa on June 12, 2006 at 3:53 PM | PERMALINK

This thread shows why the Reps control Congress. Granted DeLay was a mediocre and obnoxious Congressman -- maybe a crook. Still, look at the contrast:

Dem commenters here express glee over the ousting of DeLay from the Congress. Meanwhile pubbies express glee over the ousting of Zarqawi from the living. Voters are left with the impression that Dems are interested in defeating Republicans whereas pubbies are interested in defeating Islamic terrorism.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 12, 2006 at 6:13 PM | PERMALINK

pubbies express glee over the

comments by Ann Coulter about how the 9/11 widows are self-serving witches.

Voters are left with the impression that pubbies are more interested in turning 9/11 to political advantage than in...well, whatever it is that they claim to be interested in.

Posted by: Irony Man on June 12, 2006 at 7:11 PM | PERMALINK

Irony Man, you have a point. Most voters who see Ann Coulter as representative of Republicans won't like what they see.

Posted by: ex-liberal on June 12, 2006 at 8:22 PM | PERMALINK
Meanwhile pubbies express glee over the ousting of Zarqawi from the living. Voters are left with the impression that Dems are interested in defeating Republicans whereas pubbies are interested in defeating Islamic terrorism.

According to the administration and military in mid-April, al Qaeda in Iraq was in full retreat, fleeing Iraq, and no longer a significant source of terrorism.

So, either they were lying then, or al Qaeda in Iraq acheived one of the the most stunning turnarounds in the history of warfare, or killing Zarqawi was of little import.

(Of course, its worth noting that administration and military sources have been making that "defeated" and "fleeing" comment off and on since at least 2004.)

Posted by: cmdicely on June 13, 2006 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Zarqawi, ex-liberal, has about as much name recognition in the heartland of America as does the kid in all of those annoying zoom-zoom ads for Mazda. The difference being most of those folks might at least RECOGNIZE the fucking kid if they saw him in the local Piggly-Wiggly. You think that killing the thirteenth anonymous al-queda '2nd in command' is even a radar blip outside the beltway? What the voters see is a scrambling, frightened RNC spinning like tops and lashing out with pure craziness at anyone unfortunate enough to be in earshot. And they are not buying what you're selling anymore or haven't you seen how Zarqawi's death helped (or rather didn't) Bush in the polls.

How does it feel to watch your party imploding after ALL of that time spent on your great revolution? It must just make you angry as hell to watch your party of hate come apart at the seams, don't worry though history has shown us again and again that Americans quickly become bored with rational adult leaders at the helm. Your party will no doubt be back again one dark day.

Posted by: Eric Paulsen on June 13, 2006 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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