So maybe it's really Post-WWII Syndrome? As in, WWII was the first major war to cause heavy civilian casualties, and that (very serious) concern has affected our abilitiy to fight and win wars since, both in reality and on the PR front.

As in, WWII was the first major war to cause heavy civilian casualties

In 1257, the Mongols invaded Persia and put 800,000 civillians to the sword. Maybe you should say "first major modern war" -? just a thought.

Like there will ever be a liberal president!
Just go on thinking it possible, and scratching your heads the day after elections...

When the conservatives talk about the will to win they do mean the willingness to engage in mass murder of civilians at a scale bordering on genocide.

In that sense, we all should be relieved that we do not have the will to win. At least I am.

Osama_Been_Forgotten: In 1257, the Mongols invaded Persia and put 800,000 civillians to the sword.

So what Iran is actually looking to do is nuke Mongolia. Ok, then at least the US should be pretty safe.

I wish we'd go back to Gulf War I Syndrome - ya know, where we go in, have a clearly defined mission, get-r-done, and come home. But I guess that is sooooo 1990's...

I wish we'd go back to Gulf War I Syndrome - ya know, where we go in, have a clearly defined mission, get-r-done, and come home. But I guess that is sooooo 1990's...
Posted by: Robert on June 14, 2006 at 5:00 PM | PERMALINK

Ironically, this strategy was referred to as "The Powell Doctrine."

Interesting, when you consider that Powell originally said "no way in hell" was he interested in working for the Bush Administration, pre-2000-election. Then he apparently got an offer he couldn't refuse (I'm guessing photos of Michael Powell with a hooker) and signed up. Powell gave the Bush Administration the credibility it needed to go to war in Iraq, since Powell had succeeded there before. This is just another one of those coincidences that prove to me beyond any doubt that Bush planned to invade Iraq in 1999.

Ike did not end the Korean War. The Korean War ended because Stalin died and the men who took over immediately reversed course and agreed to meaningful negotiations.

Yet another right-wing fable gets internalized by us liberals.

It's worth remembering that we haven't won that many wars. Maybe we wouldn't be so eager to start them.

That's why Ike got elected: to go to Korea and put an end to the damn thing.

And why General Wesley Clark is a legitimate contender for the Dem nomination for the 2008 race.

"arguendo" Goddamn it Kevin will you stop reading conservative lawyer blogs with all of their fancy pretensions.

Try fucking using English.

When you see "arguendo", LEAVE IT OUT. It is redundant and pretentious.

even assuming arguendo that liberals...
even assuming that liberals...
even assuming for the sake of argument that liberals...

What the hell do you think "even assuming" means?

jebus save me!

It's worth remembering that we haven't won that many wars. Maybe we wouldn't be so eager to start them.
Posted by: Moe is me on June 14, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINK

It's even more worth remembering that the only people who ever win wars, are the sword manufacturers.

Don't use graf, worse don't use graph, and try not to use conflate.

Don't be an overly ingroupie legal-media-blogger jerkwad.

Are.we.clear?

Some goddamn overly hip ingroupie legal media blogger jerkwad, and a liberal one at that, said yesterday, "Here's teh graph." And then guess what jerkface proceeded to show us?

You never win nut, hence the lack of will. Get use to it.

Do you guys just not read current events and just make up your own alternate universe? Iraq is far from your delusions of quagmire. Maliki has a handle on the country and the permanent government, Zarqawi's dead, the Iraqi military is gaining ground everyday and now Iran has now made overtures towards helping us out in Iraq.

But please tell the voters this fall how displeased you are with all of that.

Has anyone considered that the incorrect illogical decision to start a war might somehow relate to it's conclusion? If it's well thought out, not a plan to win re-election, there is a well thought out exit strategy, all the reasons for the war are well considered and fully backed by a very high majority of Americans (above 75%)then the potential for victory is much greater. Perhaps if we didn't start stupid wars then we wouldn't fail at them.

Hey jerry...shut the fuck up.

I'm glad to see Kevin admit that when George P.Bush is running his uncle will be remembered as the Harry Truman of the turn of the century.

In 1257, the Mongols invaded Persia and put 800,000 civillians to the sword. Maybe you should say "first major modern war" -? just a thought.

I think, in this context, "the first major war in which the United States was a party" would actually be the proper phrase.

Iran has now made overtures towards helping us out in Iraq.

Certainly, which way did you come in?

Re Vietnam and Korea (and Iraq, and even WWII): see "Stabbed in the Back!" by Kevin Baker in the current (June) issue of Harper's. Not online, very unfortunately.

What the hell do you think "even assuming" means?

Its kind of a shorthand for "Even if I/We were to assume"; the addition of "arguendo" adds the connotation "which, were we to make that assumption, would only be for the sake of argument, not because such an assumption is reasonable or even remotely plausible", which is not really redundant. Admittedly, arguendo adds more when used when you aren't already using "even", which adds a certain connotation that the assumption discussed isn't necessarily being endorsed, but "arguendo" is considerably more emphatic about the lack of endorsement.

Iraq is far from your delusions of quagmire.
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 5:16 PM | PERMALINK
Yesterday, in neocon paradise:

Kevin wrote: ... even assuming arguendo that liberals suffer from "Vietnam Syndrome," ...

There is indeed a "syndrome" that liberals such as Kevin suffer from. It's the syndrome that compels them to wail and moan and gnash their teeth and twist themselves into quivering knots of self-doubt over every stupid, vapid, vacuous slander that fake, phony pseudo-"conservative" poseurs hurl at them.

The Vietnam War, like Bush's war in Iraq, was founded on lies, and sustained by lies; and caused the needless deaths of more than 50,000 Americans and some TWO MILLION Vietnamese civilians, and the maiming, poisoning and impoverishment of millions more.

Disgust with that wretched and hideous exercise in pointless destruction and a strong determination to never let such a thing happen again is not a "syndrome". It is common sense and common decency.

Amen, Kevin. It's the right that can't let go of Vietnam, or indeed of the 1960s in general. Their whole outlook on governing, such as it is, is based on essentially erasing the years 1960-1980 from the history books. (And among the even nuttier of them, they'd prefer to start the erasures at 1932.)

Our reactionary friends never hesitate to hang Vietnam around our necks if it suits their rhetorical purpose ("Vietnam was a liberal war! And look what happened!"), but we all know good and goddamn well that, back then, their wingnut forefathers were gung-ho for the war -- and, if it were occurring today, we also know good and goddamn well that Instapundit and all his brethren would be hysterically in favor of the war. And, indeed, even today those who protested the war (like a certain Senator from Massachusetts) are reviled as "traitors" for having done so.

So, shorter conservatives: the Vietnam War was wrong, but it was also wrong to criticize our presence there.

It isn't "Conservatives" that cannot let go of Nam. It is Republicans. Republicans have to be vigilant to ensure that the blame for "losing" Vietnam is placed on our military and the soldiers who served there like Gore, Kerry and Cleland rather than Republican politicians like Nixon and Ford.

Arguendo, STFU, that I should STFU, are you the man that's going to come over here and STFMEUP?

cmdicely, "Admittedly, arguendo adds more when used when you aren't already using "even","

Thank you for conceding the point.

Osama, did you realize that there are over 120 people murdered everyday in this country? Why not post all of the murders in this country everyday and claim it a quagmire?

Arguendo, STFU, that I should STFU, are you the man that's going to come over here and STFMEUP?

More importantly than avoiding using arguendo because it is (arguably) redundant in some contexts should be avoiding misusing it by itself to be mean "Assuming, arguendo,..."

Elements of Style 13. Omit needless words.

Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell.

Please! Think of the readers!

Osama also doesn't realize that the jihadists are playing him for the fool he is. They know him better than he knows himself. In fact they know the left better than the left and they play on your fears every single day of your pathetic victim based life.

Republicans have to be vigilant to ensure that the blame for "losing" Vietnam is placed on our military and the soldiers who served there like Gore, Kerry and Cleland rather than Republican politicians like Nixon and Ford.
Posted by: bakho on June 14, 2006 at 5:44 PM | PERMALINK

Don't forget;
When we leave Iraq, and the shit hits the fan (ie. a massive genocide of Sunnis) - Liberals will be blamed. We didn't clap loud enough.

And, additionally, shouldn't it be SMeTFUp, not STFMEUP.

Hey that's my point, I don't know what it means. I am not a lawyer and the goddamn word isn't English.

Please use English or Spanish Mr. Calpundit!

Kerry keeps bringing up Vietnam and how long was he there, four months?

Yes, you're right about that. I dickered between STFmeUP and STFMEUP and didn't consider STFMeUp. Thank you.

Poor little victim osama. If it just wasn't for those big bad republicans, the jihadists could treat me like the bitch I am and want to be.

Anyway, I need to get back to work. I am going to STFU right now.

jerry,

Granting, arguendo, that the advice from Elements of Style can be fairly taken as gospel, it is insufficient to argue against the use of "arguendo" that you have complained about, because that use makes clear authorial intent which is otherwise not clear; the word does "tell".

four months?
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

Four months longer than:
Bush,
Rummy,
Cheney,
Rove,
Wolfowitz,
Pearle,
Fleischer,
Rice,
Limbaugh,
Hannity,
O'Riley,
Jay,

and your point? oh that's right liberals never really have a point. Nevermind.

Fairless unimportant debate as to which side is worse at letting go of Vietnam. I think it depends on what one means by letting go.

Some conservatives continue to be upset that we withdrew from Vietnam with (what they believe to be) horrendous consequences for Vietnamese and Cambodian people. That they are still upset means that they haven't let go of Vietnam.

Some liberals tend to see other wars through the lens of Vietnam. E.g., both Afghjanistan and Iraq were called "quagmires" within a short time of the beginning of hostilities. E.g., during Bush's press conference this morning, a reporter asked if Iraq was like Vietnam. I believe that was a liberal reporter. In fact, I believe the meme that Iraq is another Vietnam is mostly supported by Bush's opponents. (For the record, Bush said Iraq wasn't like Vietnam.)

So, in the sense of thinking all wars are like Vietnam, liberals haven't let go.

Chickenhawks

Hey that's my point, I don't know what it means.

I thought your problem was that it was redundant, not that you didn't understand it. The objections seem inconsistent.

I am not a lawyer and the goddamn word isn't English.

I think arguendo is widely understood by Kevin's target audience such that there is value in using it in favor over less-concise synonyms like "for the sake of argument" that aren't neolatinisms.

True American Hero

and your point? oh that's right liberals never really have a point. Nevermind.
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 5:59 PM | PERMALINK

Actually, I was kind of wondering what your point was. I found it. On the top of your head.

Conservatives are still hung up on their "stab in the back" myth, like certain other right-wingers in a certain other country once were.

Osama, did you realize that there are over 120 people murdered everyday in this country? Why not post all of the murders in this country everyday and claim it a quagmire?

Breathtaking in its complete lack of a relationship to common sense. Just goddamn breathtaking.

Hey, great news everyone!

Dubya's tax cuts are working so great, the DJIA went up 100 points today to close at 10,706. That brings us back up to the level it was at in, oh, um. ... . November 1999!

A perfect example of the right wing's Vietnam Syndrome (from the Corner):

Iraq and Vietnam [Cliff May]

Much as I hope to see a free and democratic Iraq, I don’t think democratization is the key distinction – or the key issue.

We lost in Vietnam because we didn’t have the will and the skills to prevail. Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese boat people and millions of Cambodian victims of the Khmer Rouge paid the stiffest price.

Americans went home and got on with their lives. But notice was taken of America’s failure.

That led to the seizure of our embassy in Tehran in 1979. When we responded fecklessly to that act of war, the Ayatollahs let loose Hezbollah to slaughter U.S. Marines, diplomats and intelligence agents in Beirut. We retreated again.

And we were tested again – in Mogadishu in 1993. We did not pass that test either.

So Osama bin Laden was inspired to train thousands of terrorists in Afghanistan. We knew what he was doing. We did nothing serious in response. Before long, they came after us – in Kenya and Tanzania, off the coast of Yemen and then in New York and Washington.

Eliminating Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al-Qaeda’s commander in Iraq, was a great victory. But it’s important to continue to pursue the enemy – not stop fighting prematurely as we did in both 1991 and 2003.

If we fail to prevail against al-Qaeda and the remnants of Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq, why would we not falter also in Afghanistan? And why wouldn’t the same strategy and tactics lead to victory for the Islamo-fascists in Jordan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia and elsewhere?

We either develop the will – and the military and intelligence skills — to defeat the enemy we now face on the battlefield in Iraq, or we retreat not just from Iraq but from anyplace our enemies don’t want us.

We either overcome our enemies or we resign ourselves to cowering behind concrete barriers for the remainder of this century.

Who knew that Ho Chi Minh beget the overthrow of the Shah of Iran beget Somali warlords beget Afghani jihadist! And who knew the domino theory could be so readily resuscitated?

Sounds like an endorsement of Gen. Wesley Clark in '08.

Ah, I see that the same Cliff May post is what Yglesias was commenting on in the first place! My bad. Always click on the link!

Korea, vietnam, Iraq, all my fault ....

Confessions Of A Traitor

They are going to blame the failure of the Iraq war on me. They always blame me for these things. I’m almost used to it by now. I almost don’t mind being called a traitor.

I was a traitor in 1950 when I said that the military decision to push beyond the 38th parallel, after expelling the North Korean army from South Korea, was foolishly inviting disaster. I believed that China would surely intervene to keep us from threatening its borders. My commanding officer called me a traitor for predicting the bloody retreat and disaster that followed.

I was again a traitor in 1965 when the group I belonged to, Veterans For Peace, warned that the growing military adventure in Vietnam was doomed to end in failure and disgrace. We were accused of treason for not supporting our troops. But it was not us who failed to support our troops. It was the foolish and deluded men in the Pentagon, State Department, and White House who sent 65,000 young Americans to die in an unwinnable war fought under impossible circumstances.

Now it is happening again. After it became clear three years ago that Iraq was a target for invasion, tens of thousands of my fellow traitors and I began protesting against the persistent stupidity of pursuing this tragically failing war. We see the same old vehement ignorance at work once more. We can hardly be blamed for believing that Iraq is Korea and Vietnam all over again. And once more we are called traitors for “not supporting our troops.”

I said I’m almost used to being called that. Almost. Considering the sort of people doing the accusing, I should be content to wear the label, but I prefer to think of myself as a patriot. After all, my ancestors were called traitors in 1776, but today are thought of as great patriots. So I prefer to think of my kind of treason as a family tradition. And to paraphrase an old family friend: If this be treason, then I shall try to make the most of it.

OBF, thanks for bringing the DJIA up. It had been in the high 11's for months almost hitting 12 (highest ever) until the recent sparring with Iran. It's now climbing again. Can you say 12,000.

Also, federal revenue receipts up 13% over forecast.

buddy, you have nothing in common with our ancestors of 1776. They had a firm belief in God, a firm sense of right from wrong, extreme self confidence and never played the victim. You possess none of those qualities.

Can you say 12,000.
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 6:37 PM | PERMALINK

I do, I do, I DO believe in faeries!

I'm not at all worried about losing elections. Who cares about that inferior rabble?

We don't need to control the White House or Congress, or even the Supreme Court. We don't need influence in the corporate boardrooms of giant media conglomerates.

All we need is a couple of obscure blogs on the internet. That's it!

Just by being pessimistic about Iraq, and saying how we're in a quagmire, I ensure defeat! Just like I did in VietNam. I have that power. (maybe because I'm in league with Satan). There's nothing that the President, or the Congress, or the American Enterprise Institute (even with their paid blog trolls) can do! I'm a pessimistic liberal, and I kick ass! I rule the world HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Jay, i said MY ancestors, not "our"s. Mine were Deists, traitors, slaveowners, and were victimized when the British burned them out of their homes. You talk shit, kid.

Sombody should have told them to build another home, protect it, and quit whining.

It had been in the high 11's for months almost hitting 12 (highest ever) until the recent sparring with Iran. It's now climbing again. Can you say 12,000.

The jokes write themselves.

Kevin, thanks for that reminder about how short-term the US's collective memory is about its recent past. I'm astounded at how Truman's reputation has been rehabilitated and he's now become a iconic American president. The focus on his years in the White House has been moved from the quagmire in Korea to his resoluteness in stopping the Communist juggernaut from enveloping the entire world.

That revisionism probably has a lot to do with Americans' attitudes towards its wars. It seems crucial to our self-image that we are always triumphant in war. When we aren't, we tend to slide the focus to something else we think did well in. Today, it seems the American experience in Korea is a fuzzy memory at best to most Americans. I'll bet not one in ten can accurately describe the genesis of the war and how the various participants fared in it.

I've noticed the same process is beginning for Vietnam too. I wonder how future Americans are going to view our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Will George Bush be an iconic president to Americans some 60 years from now when time has blurred the actual facts? It seems to me this is less of a liberal-conservative issue than a question of maintaining a national self-image that ignores our warts.

Jay wrote: ... never played the victim

No one "plays the victim" more than so-called "conservatives."

Rush Limbaugh has made himself a multi-millionaire by preaching every day to his ditto-head followers that they are the poor little victims of the "liberal elites" who run the country. And they are victims of women. And they are victims of blacks. And they are victims of Latinos. And on and on ad nauseum. Poor little white male conservative victims.

Actually, they are indeed victims -- of the far right-wing ultra-rich corporate elites and their bought-and-paid-for political servants and shills like George W. Bush and their lying-sack-of-shit hate-radio windbags like Rush Limbaugh -- but Rush does a good job of keeping them too ignorant and stupid to realize that.

You don't listen very closely do you secular. Rush laughs at the left who wants the masses to believe just what you described, knowing that conservativve Americans are the most aggressive A-Type personality people there are.

The fact that you perceived the opposite is hysterical.

I have not let Vietnam go. The US has not adequately asked forgiveness for killing millions of people.

Liberals are like mosquitos. Annoying and blood sucking but so insignificant they're hardly worth much time and effort.

Hey hostile, forgive this........

When the conservatives talk about the will to win they do mean the willingness to engage in mass murder of civilians at a scale bordering on genocide.

One often hears the lament the military was prevented from winning the war in Vietnam. I respond that if ony we could have killed 25 million more people we would have won.

Jay, did you just rape, murder and eat the liver of a little Iraqi child?

Yes, it's true that as I'm riding my limousine, eating brie, and chatting with my freinds in France on my encrypted, NSA-proof satellite phone, I'm often worried that the American working class will catch on to the things Rush Limbaugh is telling them, and that their aggressive A-Type personalities will kick in, and they'll start voting even more republican.

I talked to some Ivy League tenured college professors (while we were banging their students, male and female) about this problem, and they told me not to worry, because I can continue to just criticize America, and keep spending George Soros' money, and the Power of Liberal Pessimism will ensure defeat in Iraq, and the massive takeover of the world by the New Muslim Caliphate Empire, where we Liberal Elites will be rewarded for our multicultural sensitivity, with harems selected from the finest Red State debutantes. (as if we don't debauch them as things are today; simply by brainwashing them with our Hollywood movies that we force them to watch).

If those "civilians" engage in suicide bombing, car bombing, and jihadism, then hell yes. Wipe them all out.

I cooked it first.

If those "civilians" engage in suicide bombing, car bombing, and jihadism, then hell yes. Wipe them all out.
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

Oh!

I get it now.

Terrorists are people who attack civillians.
Liberators attack "civillians".

I wonder if they attack the "civillians" that "Speak English" also. . .

Liberals are like mosquitos. Annoying and blood sucking but so insignificant they're hardly worth much time and effort.

Just the time and effort it takes to post on this site I guess.

Osama_Been_Forgotten, I'm nor sure one can measure the results of Bush's tax cuts by how the stock market did. There are many other factors.

However, if you're going to do that measurement, your point of comparison should be where the market was right before the tax cuts went into effect. As I recall the tax cuts started around 2002, but didn't take effect all at once. For what it's worth, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up about 50% from its low point in fall, 2002.

Just don't get it do you OBF. Quit listening to Howard Dean and Cindy Sheehan. That might help.

ex-liberal: ...As I recall the tax cuts started around 2002, but didn't take effect all at once. For what it's worth, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up about 50% from its low point in fall, 2002.

Personally, I don't think it's worth all that much unless one goes on to note all the other factors that were working at that time:

"A more comprehensive look at the evidence, however, indicates that, while the dividend and capital gains tax cuts were indeed correlated with the upturn in the recover, they were not the cause of the improvement."

"Terrorists are people......" OBF

I just now realized I overlooked that. It's priceless.

Terrorists are people.....who just need hugs.

Right? OBF, Hostile?

There's one "Vietnam Syndrome" aspect of our Mesopotamian adventure that right-wingers seem suspiciously quiet about: According to their myth, we would have won easily, if only LBJ and his gang hadn't "meddled" with the geniuses in the Pentagon. Ever since the rug got pulled out from under Army Chief of Staff Shinseki, it's been clear that the Bush crowd doesn't hesitate to scrap the professional advice of uniformed officers. Now, sure, civilians are supposed to be in charge, and honestly, given modern communications the general who expects no oversight from politicians may as well be studying cavalry tactics or swordsmanship. Still, I keep waiting for howls of outrage about how Bush and Rumsfeld almost certainly browbeat the theater commanders into saying that they have enough resources.

knowing that conservativve Americans are the most aggressive A-Type personality people there are.

Um, it's clear you don't see the connection between the constant state of paranoia about being victimized and the fact that right-wingers lash out with irrational agression, egged on by jokers like Rush who convince them that they're besieged by "librul elites."

Still, I keep waiting for howls of outrage about how Bush and Rumsfeld almost certainly browbeat the theater commanders into saying that they have enough resources.

Note to sglover: don't hold your breath. Before that could happen there'd have to be a sea-change in the administration such that they valued the military for something more than politically expedient grand-standing and photo-ops.

Constantine, the liberals are legends in their own minds and that is what entertains us. We hardly need "irrational aggression" to fend off the mosquitoes, the next election will do.

Speaking of irrational aggression, the collective left, exemplified by Cindy Sheehan, Al Sharpton and Al Franken seem to be going off the deep end more and more.

Cool game, Jay, can I play?

If those "civilians" engage in suicide bombing, car bombing, and jihadism, then hell yes. Wipe them all out.
Posted by: Jay on June 14, 2006 at 7:13 PM | PERMALINK

"I. . . . engage in suicide bombing,. . . "

Priceless!
Wish it were true. I'd enthusiastically supply the explosives if it were.

When the conservatives talk about the will to win they do mean the willingness to engage in mass murder of civilians at a scale bordering on genocide.

So-called "conservatives" not only do not have the will to volunteer for the armed forces in sufficient numbers, let alone consider a draft, they insist on paying for the war with a tax cut.

Will to win, my eye. Sure, as long as it doesn't cost them anything. The world trembles at the conservative bravado...not.

. . . Wipe them all out.

By the way, Jay, I sure hope you weren't holding your breath waiting for Bush to do that (wipe them all out) - because if you haven't figured it out after three years, he does not have the BALLS to do that. There is nothing stopping him, right? I mean, he says he doesn't have to obey laws, he's got Congress, the Judiciary on his side - so why doesn't he do what you want him to do, and "wipe them all out?"

Answer: If he did, then he'd have to pack up his toys and go home, and his war profiteer buddies would have to stop billing the taxpayers, and we might peacefully get some oil out of the ground, and his oil company buddies wouldn't be able to charge $70/bbl anymore.

Greggy, you might want to check out the conservatice to liberal ration in our armed forces. You might be surprised to learn that the far far majority of them are conservatives. Thanks for playing though.

Your claiming that GW doesn't have the BALLS to take care of business when you have been sniveling and crying for four years now about "civilian" deaths. I am surprised you even had the BALLS to post that comment, knowing that you don;t have the brains to know the difference.

Jay,

Why not post all of the murders in this country everyday and claim it a quagmire?

Are you saying that the USA is an occupied country?

No, moron, simply trying to pin down the left's definition of a quagmire.

We were in Vietnam because Kennedy said we would bare any burden and pay any price. I agreed. When we left Vietnam we were victorious. Don't re-write history. Vietnam was abondoned. North Vietnamese causualties were over 1 million. N. Vietanm could only win after we left them and cut S. Vietnam off, while the Russians and Chinese supplied N. Vietnam with all they would need. Afterward over 1 million S. Vietnamese were murdered.

Greggy, you might want to check out the conservatice to liberal ration in our armed forces. You might be surprised to learn that the far far majority of them are conservatives. Thanks for playing though.

Jay, we don't have enough troops in Iraq to provide even minimal security. If Iraq was as important as you Bush Cultists claim it is, it'd be imperative that you join up. As has already been established, though, your ass is comfortably Stateside along with your chickenhawk brethren. I notice you didn't address Bush's ludicrous insistence on paying for the war with a tax cut, because, no doubt, the cognitive dissonance is too much.

Bottom line: Bush knew all along the American people -- indeed, his own so-called "conservative" base -- would be unwilling to pay the price of his Iraqi adventure, so he lied about it. Now that things are heading south, the American people show signs of buyer's remorse. But, true to form, the Chickenhawk Brigade are still cheering for the war -- and why not? They have no skin in the game.

Yeah, real ballsy. Real brave.

Wow, Jay's obvious pain and ability to fall into sophomoric name-calling must be an indication that he also can see the end of the road soon to the average American's ability to stomach anymore rightwing lies and incompetence.

I think, in this context, "the first major war in which the United States was a party" would actually be the proper phrase.

Yes, sorry, I should have made clear I was referring specifically to wars involving the United States.

Anyway, it was just a hypothesis I put out to maybe start a discussion about the reasons for these Korean/Vietnam/Iraq Syndromes. But I see the comment thread, as usual, devolved quickly into troll spats.

Et tu, Brute?

But see, that's not redundant. "Even assuming, argudeno" is redundant and pretentious. If you want to get me in a tizzy, tell me about your trip to the La Brea Tar Pits. (Doesn't get me in a tizzy either.)

For cmdicely, If I understand what arguendo means, it is not because I understand Latin, but because I can read a dictionary meant for layman. But that doesn't mean I think that dictionary is authoritative.

law.com suggests it means "for the sake of argument", at which point I have to chuck out all of your niceties about the subtleties of when to use arguendo and when not to. But it also seems perfectly reasonable to say,

"For the sake of argument, I should STFU, then...."

And if so, by law.com, what would be wrong with,

"Arguendo, I should STFU"

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

And the claim that Kevin's audience all understands what that means? Cool, let's just speak to the hip lawyer media cognoscenti. I guess that would explain the different numbers of audience for say, the Washington Monthly and SI.

What is really being said, and this is the key graf, so don't conflate it with this key graph referenced in the other post, is that even assuming for the sake of argument and arguendo, that we wanted to win an election, what's more important is that we look cool than actually speak english.

Color me Feh.

'When we left Vietnam we were victorious. Don't re-write history. Vietnam was abondoned. North Vietnamese causualties were over 1 million. N. Vietanm could only win after we left them and cut S. Vietnam off, while the Russians and Chinese supplied N. Vietnam with all they would need. Afterward over 1 million S. Vietnamese were murdered.'
--FU (how cute...)

Actually, we weren't victorious. But history has been re-written by the conservatives, who equate militarism with patriotism. A little history lesson -

The conflict in Vietnam (previously French Indochina) began as an insurgency against French colonial rule , not unlike what the U.S. is facing in Iraq right now. The U.S. supported the French and were a party to the Geneva Accords that partitioned Vietnam into North and South in 1954. When Ho Chi Minh moved in 1957 to re-unite the country, the U.S. intervened, first with military advisers, then with troops in the 1960s. After the Tet offensive in 1968, the American public grew disillusioned and protests gathered steam, notably culminating at Kent State in 1970. The U.S. fled Vietnam in 1975 and the country re-united, which we had been trying to prevent since 1957. How this constitutes a “victory” is beyond me.

Further, if 1 million people were slaughtered after we left, a number at least that large were slaughtered by the United States in the years 1963 -75, including the most egregious use of WMDs (chemical weapons) against civilians since, well, we used them at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Rather than learning from our mistakes, we now find ourselves smack in the middle of another civil war in Iraq, with our inevitable retreat without accomplishing our "goal" looming large.

You can go on believing in fairy tales if you wish, smart guy. I like to believe that the march of civilization is a march away from barbarism. And, I like to learn from my mistakes...

jerry: you on the east coast? Let's work something out, sweetheart.

And I guarantee you, when I'm done, you will have shut the fuck up.

Vietnam has been described by leftists as a "fool's errand." I guess that actually explains why Uncle Sam had to send me! Fool that I and my friends were at that young age, we did pretty well with a situation that Lyndon Baines Johnson had screwed up from the get-go. By the time I passed through in late 1972 we had achieved a Korea-style stalemate, only with the critical difference that the American left were now hell-bent on throwing away the ultimate sacrifice of a lot of good people.
Our retreat was not at all inevitable and I will always believe that we did not kill nearly as many civilians as did the Viet Cong and the NVA in their quiet but quite deliberate murders of anyone who disagreed with their political aim.
I sure hope the leftists of today don't think that they can get away with throwing away another hard-won victory because it suits their America-hating view of the world.
Vietnam may be "united" today, but by no stretch of the imagination is it a nation that tolerates either freedom of conscience or a pluralistic type of democratic rule.
It is hopelessly obvious that post modern American leftists really don't give a damn about democracy or even quaint liberal values. If you guys had your way American red staters would obviously not enjoy any input at all into any national policy, but all policies would be dictated by some type of single-party Politburo who all believe with the passion of the truly dogmatic fanatic that the Haditha marines are guilty, the Duke Lacrosse players are guilty, and that human beings have something significant to do with the very slight climate change of the last 80 years.

"When the conservatives talk about the will to win they do mean the willingness to engage in mass murder of civilians at a scale bordering on genocide."

It is the liberals objecting to the small, mission oriented army rather than the human wave cannon fodder war that Rumsfeld got away from. No other army ever put itself at risk to reduce civilian casualties as we have.

Ike's "If I am elected I will go to Korea and end the war" kept me from ever considering the republican party. I belive that killed lots of our guys because it said kill enough Americans and they will quit.

What if we never went into Viet Nam? Would anything have changed? After all is said and done it's their country and if the wanted to be commies who cares.
Same with Iraq, I don't recall getting a postcard from Bagdad Bob requesting troops. Iraq as a military threat come on.
All this moaning and groaning about Soviet Union feels like we get a little more like them all the time. You know all the domestic spying on each other. We have more people behind bars than any place on earth.

Fool that I and my friends were at that young age, we did pretty well with a situation that Lyndon Baines Johnson had screwed up from the get-go.

You participated in killing between one and two million Vietnamese civilians in order to achieve a stalemate that kept a brutal, weak, corrupt and incompetent dictatorship in power in Saigon -- one so feeble, divided and unpopular that it could be propped up only by hundreds of thousands of US troops and massive US air support. At the first sustained offensive by the NVA after the US left, the RVN literally dissolved into thin air, largely ignored, despised or hated by its own citizens. No doubt the stalemate could have been maintained indefinitely if the US had been willing to keep a minimum of 100,000 troops in South Vietnam forever. Then South Vietnam would have been able to enjoy its vicious and corrupt dictatorship for another few decades, before ultimately arriving at pretty much the same place it's in today: an authoritarian capitalist country gradually becoming more transparent and instituting the rule of law, with, hopefully, an eventual transition to democracy on the horizon.

Except, of course, you probably would have had to kill a few hundred thousand more people.

You went to Vietnam because your country called. You don't have to take responsibility for the atrocities that went on there. But if you choose to, then may the lives of those millions who died for no reason be on your head.

To a leftist war is hell only to be used when absolutely necessary. Our military is called a defensive military so the necessity first would be an attack upon us. Vietnam nor Iraq attacked us but in the 40's, Japan did. The support for a war with Japan was tremendous from the beginning until surrender. Surely even a rightwinger can see the difference. The reasons for going to war must be ones that are sensible, right, necessary and meet rational criteria that deem war the only answer to defend the US. Vietnam nor Iraq reaches this level so they were/are doomed to failure. Osama bin Laden attacked the US yet he remains free. Is Bush afraid of Pakistan where Osama hides? The American people would support bringing Osama to justice but yet Awol can't seem to do it after nearly 5 years. He was/is our enemy not Iraq. Why don't rightwingers scream their heads off about Osama's freedom-if liberals were in power and had failed to find him they would be. Hmmm. Instead the worry about a war with the wrong country where Osama was not. Do they really care about defending the USA?

If you guys had your way American red staters would obviously not enjoy any input at all into any national policy

Mike Cook, you're right. If I had my way, people like you would not enjoy any input at all into any national policy. And if you had your way, people like me would not enjoy any input at all into any national policy. Fortunately, we live in a democracy, with rules that are supposed to ensure we both have our say. Of course, under your President, the traditions of compromise in our lawmaking bodies have been thrown out the window in favor of total rule by the narrow GOP majority, so in point of fact while you guys did have a say under our governments, we have had no say under yours. But that's because people like you have fascist instincts.

I'm not sure I understand mike cook's position ... I think it is completely sound policy to ignore input from the bigoted religious fanatics he represents.

I tolerate these ignorant fucks, but I certainly don't want them dictating policy ... the body count is high enough as it is.

Mike Cook:

It seems like you are filled with hate. Get help.

SK

The Repub'ns crow abt putting "the VietNam syndrome" behind us, but they themselves have "learned" one big lesson from VietNam: if they want to have their little wars, they must *never again* have a draft.

It is hopelessly obvious that post modern American leftists really don't give a damn about democracy or even quaint liberal values. If you guys had your way American red staters would obviously not enjoy any input at all into any national policy, but all policies would be dictated by some type of single-party Politburo who all believe with the passion of the truly dogmatic fanatic.....

I think the Republican Party is already occupying that position, though it's the blue-states (you know, the ones that lead the country in quality of life, technological innovation, etc.) that are being shut out.

jay: Can you say 12,000.

DID YOU KNOW....WHEN CLINTON CAME INTO OFFICE..THE DOW WAS 3241....WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE....IT STOOD AT 10,587...

DID YOU KNOW WHEN GWB CAME INTO OFFICE....IT STARTED AT 10587 AND AFTER 5-YEARS IS CURRENTLY AT 10,800

the difference?

since bush and the gop took over.....about 3-trillion dollars has been added to the federal debt...

that's 3-trillion...

with a "t"

jay: federal revenue receipts up 13% over forecast.

for those who missed it earlier...

In dollar terms, federal receipts from personal income taxes, at $802 billion in 2004, are still lower than they were in 1998 ($826 billion) and much lower than in 2001 ($994 billion)...

SOURCE: "Analyzing the Economic and Budgetary Effects of a 10 Percent Cut in Income Tax Rates." - Congressional Budget Office 12/10/05

Federal reciepts (measured in contant dollars) were less in 2004 than 2000

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/Tfdb/TFTemplate.cfm?DocID=200&Topic2id=20&Topic3id=23

Tax revenues hit "all-time highs" on a regular basis because the economy is constantly growing. Like home ownership.

DID YOU KNOW Clinton had "all time highs" in Federal tax revenues 8-years in a row, before and after Republican congresses, before and after tax increases.

DID YOU KNOW that Federal tax revenues FELL in 2001, AGAIN in 2002, and DOWN even more in 2003. That hasn't happened since the GREAT DEPRESSION.

jay knows this....he and the president hope you don't...

"DID YOU KNOW WHEN GWB CAME INTO OFFICE....IT STARTED AT 10587 AND AFTER 5-YEARS IS CURRENTLY AT 10,800

the difference?

since bush and the gop took over.....about 3-trillion dollars has been added to the federal debt...

that's 3-trillion..."

Bush et. al., wanted to prove Keynes wrong, and well, this is a pretty good example of that.

(Not true of course because of how the 3T was spent, and clearly it wasn't in anything like a jobs program)

Stephen Kriz,

You are an idiot. If you knew anything about that area of the world you refer to as "French Indochina" you would know that there has always been a cultural and social division between the northern and southern areas to which you refer. You ignore all the geo-political forces at play during that time.
I am sorry you don't think dropping the bomb to save millions of lives, Japanese and American, in an assault on the Japaneese mainland was not worht it but it was worth it to me.
I am afraid it is you who need help. You need a proper history lesson. It seems today some people are really ignorant of what happend in WWII, Vietnam , Korea, all of it.

If you think your way is enlightend you are wrong. The North Vietnamese were utterly defeated. The only reason they are in power today is because we left South Vietnam and cut off need armaments.

Brooksfoe,

I suppose the North Vietnamese Government wasn't corrupt. You people are real stupid.

jerry, so its your contention that bush knows who keynes is?

and is it your contention that 3-trillion worth of tax cuts and deficit spending...

do have an effect on the economy?

or dont?

make up your mind...

and the total fed. debt grows more each day....

The Republicans have two old nazi tactics: The Stab in the Back (liberals and media caused us to lose Vietnam), and the Persecuted Majority (war against christianity).

They forget that most of the soldiers who fought in Vietnam were against it, not just Jane Fonda liberals.

Big deal, we lost in Vietnam. But we won the cold war.

I don't get these guys, on the one hand they always got to have an enemy, on the other hand they always got fight a war and win every war. You can't have both.

The liberals didn't lose Vietnam - it not only wasn't winable, it wasn't worth fighting.

The majority, christians, are not pursecuted, we have freedom of religion.

Its the pathological state of fear in the minds of the conservative that is the albatross around America's neck.

Good grief.

They should trade their fear in for courage. The world is never completely safe. Live with that.

One other point.

Grahem Greene predicted the next 25 years of history in Vietnam back in 1952.

He then wrote a book on it that was published in 1954: Called the Quiet American.

He was being polite. He really meant the ignorant American. We saw every war, including local and colonial wars in terms of the cold war. Its the old saying "we want to say that we see things the way they are, but more precisely we see things the way we are."

If Graham Green could predict the subsequent 25 years of history back in 1952, that is the futility of American attitudes and involement in Vietnam, if he could predict it then, when it was still the future, why can't reactionary conservatives except it as fact now that its in History - Vietnam was unwinnable and unpurposeful.

What Kevin misses is that the obvious point should be a desire to have a president who does good things for the cournty, which Truman often did, not to have a president with good ratings or even one who necessarily gets re-elected.

Because Vietnam was not unwinnable and fighting for freedom is never unporposeful. I viewed our own freedom at the time as being on the line because the struggle against communist totalitarianism was a global struggle. I viewed Hitler as only the third bloodiest genocidal tyrant of all time, far lagging both Mao Tse Tung and Stalin in total number of lives ruined.
I viewed the actual continued presence of open Stalinist sympathizers in the USA as an extremely ominous situation, especially when these proto-genocidal idealists so easily morphed into the anti-war protestors of the 1960's. I viewed Che Guevara as the establisher of Stalinist labor camps in Cuba (yes, he did!)

Moreover, when I last touched the ground in late 1972 there were probably not 10,000 Americans left in the whole country. The Republic of South Vietnam had its own forces quite adequately deployed to deal with resurgent guerilla activity, of which there was little because the Viet Cong never recovered from their suicide campaign during the Tet Offensive.

The only thing that toppled South Vietnam was a massive, conventional invasion of tanks, trucks, and artillery that openly rolled down the highways to the south--looking for all the world like Saddam's motorized army that later invaded Kuwait. This was an invasion force that begged to be bombed.

Had it been bombed, I have little doubt that South Vietnam today would have a raucous democracy along the lines of Taiwan, would be about ten times as prosperous, but would have open freedom of expression and conscience, something folks here on this blog seem to value not at all.

Vietnam was worth fighting. The tactics and strategy could have been a whole lot better and one of the consequences would have been fewer civilian casualties. Our military learned a lot of lessons in Vietnam that have made the extremely difficult struggle in Iraq go easier.

Iraq is worth fighting for, it's worth staying the course, and in fact, we are probably about to win a battle in the war against terrorism that is extremely significant. I really don't care that leftists (including some who supported the intervention against Saddam) now have changed sides.
The unfortunate past can not be changed, but maybe I can prevent today's leftists from once again snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and throwing away (and then cursing) the troops who died to win a small victory for freedom.
All those Iraqi voters who waved their purple fingers in the air proudly simply can not be shrugged off, dismissed, and insulted by you leftist pukes. They are winners as freedom craving human beings, you are losers. Come November, you will get the message, big time losers you!

Mike, seriously. Get.Help. See a shrink.

No shrink for me, because I'm on to something here. Islamo-fascism is not really having a good year. It's worse than Canada foiling a little plot that may well have amounted to something five years ago. It's not only the Western democracies that are fighting back, but the Russians are doing it their way in Chechnya.

Ten years ago in Grozny Russian tanks were burning in the streets and dead Russian soldiers were everywhere. Despite numerous major terror attacks on Russia itself, the Chechen rebels are losing their war. The American MSM stays completely focused on Iraq almost triumphing every bad thing they can find, but in a lot of the rest of the world terrorists are fighting for local causes, only without a lot of success against Mr. Putin and Mr. Bush.

Afghanistan is very interesting right now. The Taliban are making a desperation push and being chewed up by an increasingly international force. Don't you imagine that across the border in Pakistan old Osama is pretty nervous? The sky over the Pashtun villages is so full of drones that he will never hear the bomber coming to kill him.

I'm thinking that by 2008 the War on Terror will be a worn-out topic because Bush will have won it. Of course, Iran will have its nukes and its missiles capable of hitting Israel, maybe even Paris, but that other nations have learned that having nukes doesn't mean you dare ever use them.

Kevin, man, you need to find another self destructive habbit. I think you must have wasted more brain cells on this post than if you had pounded a 1/5 of vodka.

I think we are all dumber for having read it.

Obsessing about who obsesses too much. DING, DING, DING!

Who cares? They are all assholes, there's nothing you can do that'll change that.

"As near as I can tell, liberals have pretty much let go of Vietnam."
_______________

I wonder if Kerry toyed with the idea of wearing his Swift Boat uniform when he saluted the Democratic convention and proclaimed: "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for Duty!"

Kerry was THE Vietnam candidate. Vietnam was one of the themes of the convention.

Every single day Iraq is compared to Vietnam by liberal bloggers.

Oh, the quagmire of it all! I guess the American frontier from 1750 to 1911 (Pancho Villa's raids) was one continual quagmire. The optimistic pioneers with the manifest destiny dreams were much too busy making the most of freedom to notice what an impossible quagmire they faced, not to mention impossible mountain passes, uncrossable deserts, raging rivers, hostile Indians (most carrying Hudson Bay rifles) plus a nearly complete lack of affordable medical care. If you knew someone with a pair of pliers, they were your dentist! If you suffered a natural disaster, nobody would come to your rescue. If the crops failed, you better learn to like insects and bark.

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