Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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June 22, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

HAMAS UPDATE....The Guardian claims that Hamas has agreed to recognize both Israel's right to exist as well as a negotiated two-state solution. However, nobody else seems to be reporting this yet, and the Guardian's sources are apparently not from Hamas itself. Still worth watching, though.

Kevin Drum 2:08 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (37)

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This is insufficient. Now they have to let inspectors in, surrender their nuclear weapons, slice up their illegal missiles, kill their own heirs, admit they gassed the Armenians and defect to another country while handing over all mineral rights.

Otherwise, it's just a trick.

Posted by: Kevin Hayden on June 22, 2006 at 2:22 AM | PERMALINK

plainly garbage. hamas recognising israel is a logical impossiblity -the party is predicated upon the invalidity of the 'zionist entity'. the guardian continue to push the hamas line, just as it pushed the arafat line.

advice to hamas: disarm, give up on the right of return, concede that the 67 borders will never be achieved, renounce the notion of an islamic state and, in a way most difficult of all, abandon forever vicious, pathological anti-semitism - then let's talk.

what i'm saying is, acknowledge what is obvious to everyone else in the world: admit defeat, and move on.

Posted by: lucretius on June 22, 2006 at 2:33 AM | PERMALINK

lucretius is spot on:

lay the fuck down like the american indians and just fucking DIE already.

guys like lucretius would have made great nazis as long as they got to pick who went into the chamber.

Posted by: Nads on June 22, 2006 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK

At some point Hamas do have to recognize Israel, sit down and negotiate. But why do we have to make it impossible to do so by making them do it in the most humbling way possible.

I can't even remember the last time the Israelis negotiated in good faith. They never did anythng but make it impossible for Fatah to control the Palestinian areas. This is more of the same.

One thing for sure, we won't hear any of the trolls mention any UN resolutions on this beef.

Posted by: notthere on June 22, 2006 at 3:30 AM | PERMALINK

The Gaudian had an expose' several months back showing there is no genocide in Darfur - the issue is being manufactured by the CIA in order to get Sudan's oil. I'd wait until we get confirmation from Leopold at TruthOut before you start posting this kind of scoop.

Posted by: minion of rove on June 22, 2006 at 3:36 AM | PERMALINK

minion of rove --
I read the Guardian on a fairly regular basis and I haven't seen what you are referring to; they have been on top of the genocide (and calling it so) for some time. So I searched their website back to the New Year. This is the closest I could find:


Not quite the same thing!
Maybe you can cite?

Posted by: notthere on June 22, 2006 at 3:54 AM | PERMALINK

Minion --
In case you didn't know, The Guardian was known as the "grauniad" for all its typos. So "Gaudian" was excellent, if unintended!

Posted by: notthere on June 22, 2006 at 3:57 AM | PERMALINK

Thing is, these lefty Brits and Euros don't understand the Arab mentality. It's like a carpet bazaar. If the Arab guy says he'll sell the carpet for $1000, and you say $500, and he says, okay, $600 - do you say, "Okay, deal"?

Of course not. You jump him, throw him to the floor, put your foot on his neck and a gun to the back of his head, and tell him to take his pants off. The only thing these people understand is force.

Posted by: brooksfoe on June 22, 2006 at 4:25 AM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry Kevin. You'd have to be some seriously morbid bastard to watch this stuff with interest.
Look what happened with all those treaties signed with the first nations where you and I both live.
It's just depressing - white man speaked with forked tongue in the same/old way century after century after century. Wake me up when there is some exciting new development. Like Little Big Horn ...or Tel Aviv being nuked. Would it kill you to ginger up this lame ass shipwreck of a site?
You going to be a stupid lazy jerk all yr miserable pathetic life?
Just askin'

Posted by: professor rat on June 22, 2006 at 4:32 AM | PERMALINK

How did it happen that liberals somehow became anti-Semites overnight?

The hatred of America (and inherent pitiful self-loathing) was SO POWERFUL that it made liberals instantly align with any force that opposes Amerikka, and that force just happened to be anti-semitic?

Posted by: sportsfan79 on June 22, 2006 at 8:30 AM | PERMALINK

This has been the position of the Hamas Prime Minister since before he took office. Of course, there are elements within Hamas that reject this position. However, it definitely should have gotten more attention here as it represents a potential opening.

There are elements on each side who are open to and opposed to a full settlement. Yet in the American media, tractable Palestinian statements and intractable Israeli statements are generally ignored. For example, in his inaugural address, Israeli Prime Minister Olmert stated that Israel had an inalienable historic right to the West Bank. Olmert went on to justify partial withdrawal and removal of some settlements from the West Bank solely on demographic realities in the occupied territories. Now Olmert may have been appeasing parts of his domestic constituency with his assertion that Israel has an inalienable historic right to the West Bank, but such a statement is as troubling in many respects to those seeking a fair comprehensive settlement as continued claims by Palestinians to pre-1967 Israeli territories.

I also have a question that others may be able to answer. Except for Tibet, the West Bank and the Golan Heights are there are any other territories that have been seized by military means in the last half century that are still being occupied? I'm not sure of the answer (maybe Western Saharra?), but someone on this board probably knows the answer.

Posted by: Ben Brackley on June 22, 2006 at 9:20 AM | PERMALINK

This is good news, if true.

As the comments on this blog suggest, I doubt if Hamas and the Israelis are ever going to stop hating each other. However, Hamas recognizing Israel's right to exist is an important step on the path to (a probably uneasy) peace.

Posted by: mmy on June 22, 2006 at 9:32 AM | PERMALINK

Comments by Hamas that they will recongize Israel are worthless unless they clarify their position on the "right of return." I'm sure Hamas would be more than willing to recongize Israel provided a few million Arabs would more to Israel, vote in a new government and create the second (or third if you count Jordan) Palestinian state. And then kick the Jews out.

Posted by: Mark Fox on June 22, 2006 at 9:41 AM | PERMALINK


instead of resorting to infantile name-calling, i invite you to offer an argument that refutes my point. whatever happened in 1948, the arabs kept on declaring war on israel, and kept on losing. now the arab states have treaties with israel, and are at peace with that state - no israelis in sinai any more - apart from the ones on vacation. the palestinians have comprehensively failed to achieve the goals of their intifada. to be brief: they have lost. now, they need a state, no-one denies it, but they're not going to get one through the use of suicide bombs, qassams, katyushas, baying about the destruction of the zionist entity, and making fervent appeals to allah. they'll get their state when they renounce violence, renounce the right of return, agree to a deal on jerusalem, stop their incitement / filthy racist propaganda and agree to the development a secular state that gives equal protection to non-muslim palestinians. do all this, then re-open the casinos in ramallah!

nads, of course feel free to call me a nazi again: it's so intellectually bracing.

Posted by: lucretius on June 22, 2006 at 9:49 AM | PERMALINK


The right of return is an important symbolic issue for Palestinians but is no longer much of a substantive barrier to a comprehesive settlement. A symbolic solution that allows some mostly old Palestinian men and women return at a rate tied to net Jewish immigration to Israel would almost certainly suffice without affecting Israeli demographics.

Posted by: Ben Brackley on June 22, 2006 at 9:53 AM | PERMALINK

You're such a Nazi.

You're absolutely right! All us liberals - backed as we are with money from Soros and the rest of filthy international Jewish conspiracy - absolutely hate all them dirty Jew bastards, and Amerikkka (note please, there's 3 k's in that).

Posted by: phleabo on June 22, 2006 at 10:19 AM | PERMALINK

The position, if true, signals the end of either Hamas or its leader.

If Haniyeh truly said this, his days are numbered. He will not survive his own murderous party.

If Hamas backs this position, they have become diplomatic, thereby nullifying their reason to exist.

Posted by: wishIwuz2 on June 22, 2006 at 10:21 AM | PERMALINK

If you libs aren't really anti-Semites, then why are you being so nasty to Joe Lieberman, hmmmmm?

Now Soros, that guy is a tool of the Devil.

Posted by: American Hawk's stand-in on June 22, 2006 at 10:38 AM | PERMALINK

That's a start. But get back to me after Hamas stops blowing up innocent Israelis.

Posted by: Paddy Whack on June 22, 2006 at 10:39 AM | PERMALINK

That's a start. But get back to me after Hamas stops blowing up innocent Israelis.

I imagine that Hamas will stop blowing up innocent Israelis shortly after Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians in their assinations of militants. Then, again, killing innocents just fine so long as they can be plausably considered collateral damage.

Posted by: phleabo on June 22, 2006 at 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

>The right of return is an important symbolic issue for Palestinians but is no longer much of a substantive barrier to a comprehesive settlement.


Then they should state this upfront. At minimium a statement saying that the "right of return" was not an absolute but could be discussed is needed. Also, given that nobody agreeds what UN Resolution 194 means, don't refer to that but make a statement on what their current position is.

Posted by: Mark Fox on June 22, 2006 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

"At minimium a statement saying that the 'right of return' was not an absolute but could be discussed is needed."


If you mean that the Palestinians should take a public position saying that the terms of a 'right of return' are open to negotiations, I would agree (certainly, Abbas has acknowledged this though I don't know what Hamas politicians have said about it).

However, if you saying that the Palestinians should concede the "right of return" does not need to be part of a final settlement, I would disagree. The issue has too much symbolic importance and like all symbolic issues should be dealt with tactfully.

Posted by: Ben Brackley on June 22, 2006 at 11:19 AM | PERMALINK

Any Palestinian leader who would give up the 'right of return' and give away East Jerusalem wouldn't live an hour. His own bodyguards would kill him.

Any Israeli leader who would accept the 'right of return' and give away control of the Wailing Wall wouldn't remain in office an hour. The Knesset would depose him.

That's why you don't have peace.

For the Palestinians to decide to live in peace, they have to give up what has developed as a murderous death cult. They glorify the shahids, the suicide bombers, and jihad. No peace is possible until this changes. For the Israelis, I suspect many would be happy with the 1967 borders with a few adjustments (both ways), and I think the Israeli government would be willing to accept a two-state solution provided they get iron-clad security.

Hamas is predicated on the destruction of the 'Zionist' entity. Any concession now is a hudna, a temporary pause while they gather new strength. For real peace, Hamas has to go and the Palestinians have to have a change of heart. I don't see that happening until they hit rock-bottom, and they have yet to do so.

Posted by: Steve White on June 22, 2006 at 11:27 AM | PERMALINK

If you libs aren't really anti-Semites, then why are you being so nasty to Joe Lieberman, hmmmmm?

Good point, see also the liberal attacks on Russ Feingold. . .er. . .oops.

Like I keep saying, we need smarter trolls.

Posted by: David P on June 22, 2006 at 11:37 AM | PERMALINK

Senate votes to keep troops in Iraq 93-6. So much for the cut& run option...

Posted by: buffpilot on June 22, 2006 at 11:39 AM | PERMALINK

As cmdicely points out, the Republican Congress (and hopefully the Dems!) is calling the Bush administration "terrorists":

HR 861 says that "The terrorists have declared Iraq to be the central front in their war against all who oppose their ideology."

It is the first time in quite a while that any member of the GOP has spoken the truth.

Posted by: Advocate for God on June 22, 2006 at 11:49 AM | PERMALINK

Maybe if we lower the bar a little further we can get Hamas to agree. Maybe if we tell Hamas that they only need to pretend to recognize Israel and a two state solution that will get them on board. That worked for Arafat, it should work for Hamas. Or set the bar lower still, they don't even have to pretend to prevent attacks against Israel. No actually that's tha same bar we had for Arafat.

Posted by: David Patin on June 22, 2006 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

How did it happen that liberals somehow became anti-Semites overnight?

i learned it from soros, spielberg, streisand, feingold, wellstone, my grandpa isaac, uncle morris, aunt rachel, and aunt esther. (great-granddad mordechai died long before i was born, but i've been told he really hated us yids.)

and clueless joe is a shonda for the goyim.

Posted by: benjoya on June 22, 2006 at 12:53 PM | PERMALINK

'Mordechai' is a good name. There aren't enough of them around these days.

Posted by: S Ra on June 22, 2006 at 1:18 PM | PERMALINK

In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict nobody ever misses the chance to miss a chance.

That's a functional definition of Hell.

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on June 22, 2006 at 1:20 PM | PERMALINK

It's got to be true. The piece was was written by Jason Leopold.

Posted by: Dicksknee on June 22, 2006 at 9:29 PM | PERMALINK

Jason Leopold is working for The Guardian!

Posted by: Neil' on June 22, 2006 at 9:38 PM | PERMALINK

Holy shit! Kevin actually posted something that's explicitly about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not just treated as some side-show to the "Bush doctrine" or getting-ready-to-bomb-Iran preparations! When was the last time he did that? Things must have been going swell since then over there, thus justifying its lack of a mention here.

Posted by: Bill on June 22, 2006 at 10:27 PM | PERMALINK

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Posted by: absoya. on June 23, 2006 at 12:42 AM | PERMALINK

Duh... the reason it isn't 'reported' widely is because if true, Israel is out of reasons for murdering babies at check points.

And we all know - Israel thrives on reducing the growing population of Muslims in their midst.

If Israeli Jews need dead Palestinians to survive - American Jews will provide the cover.

Posted by: sarah on June 23, 2006 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

Benjoya gives us a peek at the crypsis of American Jews [ the phrases they use to communicate to each other often reveal their sense of 'otherness' within the host culture.

In this case Benjova chides clueless Joe for being a " shonda for the goyim"

That's you and me guys... WE ARE THE ENEMY to be manipulated and used to advance Jewish interests.

They don't hide it... they flaunt it - and yet we cower in fear of these demons.

Don't let your children grow up to be victims of the enemy within. Tell them the truth of Palestine and 9/11/

Maybe we can take back our country from this treasonous minority before the AIPAC our children.

Posted by: tj on June 23, 2006 at 1:40 PM | PERMALINK

Go TJ !!

I love the truth squads on the net. I caught that little tidbit by resident jew benjova.

They talk about us in front of us. We are certainly the enemy.

Posted by: karen on June 23, 2006 at 2:46 PM | PERMALINK



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