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Tilting at Windmills

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June 24, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

WHAT THE LEFT DOES BEST....I've deliberately ignored the Kos-TNR dustup until now because, really, who needs it? The kindergarten antics are just too depressing.

But this is too spectacular a meltdown to pass up. On Thursday Lee Siegel wrote :

It's a bizarre phenomenon, the blogosphere....nightmare of populist crudity....hard fascism with a Microsoft face....fascistic forces....beyond the thuggishness, what I despise about so many blogurus, is the frivolity of their "readers."....The blogosphere's fanaticism is, in many ways, the triumph of a lack of focus.

And today he's upset that bloggers reacted badly to this measured and temperate criticism! Wow. Just wow.

(And the effort to genuinely, literally demonstrate that Markos is a fascist? Triple wow.)

On a broader note and yes, I realize I'm spitting into a Cat 5 hurricane here here's a wee bit of perspective for both sides: Kos is an activist, The New Republic is a magazine. Is it really a shocker that Kos acts like an activist and TNR acts like a magazine? Should I consider myself insane because I read and enjoy both?

Kevin Drum 12:28 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (55)

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While I was a subscriber for many, many years, I think you can truly consider yourself insane if you read and enjoy that rag these days.

Posted by: Brautigan on June 24, 2006 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Frist?

Posted by: fred on June 24, 2006 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

Well, you should reflect on your judgement if you enjoy Lee Siegel's movie reviews. The man who insulted readers who thought that Eyes Wide Shut was a bad movie.

Posted by: david on June 24, 2006 at 12:34 PM | PERMALINK

That's not why we consider you insane, Kevin. Errr, just kidding. Actually, you're doing what any sane person should - useing each source for the value it brings and staying out of the cross fire.

Posted by: LowLife on June 24, 2006 at 12:38 PM | PERMALINK

I dunno if insane is the right word. But I let my online subscription lapse. TNR is just as timely or as effective in it analysis as the blogosphere is.

Wouldn't say the same for other periodicals I read--Harpers, Foreign Affairs, NYRoB, New Yorker, Economist. But TNR really hasn't been satisifying for some time. I think their beat overlaps too much with the left blogosphere, which does a better job.

Posted by: JayAckroyd on June 24, 2006 at 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

The New Republic is a magazine.

Yep - one that is losing subscribers faster than ever. Not that supporting the war had anything to do with it.

Maybe they should try to start some visibility by creating a bullshit non-controversy?

Nah, they wouldn't be that desperate, would they?

Posted by: pebird on June 24, 2006 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, you missed the point why TNR is so angry at Kos. Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore. TNR wants the Democrats to win and not to lose, but Kos doesnt care. In order to win, the Democratic Party must prove its a big tent party which accepts different points of views like the Republican Party. It has to show the Democratic Party can accept a diversity of points of views. Instead, Kos and his small band of extremists are trying to drive them out of the Democratic Party.

This is what's happening to Joe Lieberman in Connecticut right now. Because he's not willing to follow in step the marching orders of Kos, Kos is trying to kick him out of the party. If Lieberman loses the Democratic Primary, this will mean the effective end of the Democratic Party as a viable party in America because moderates and conservatives will see the extremists have taken over the Democratic Party. Instead, Kos is now giving the orders in the Democratic Party and will expel anyone who doesn't agree with him.

Posted by: Al on June 24, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

David: Actually, I don't think I've ever read anything by Lee Siegel before this. Except for a takedown of the Daily Show once that someone linked to. Otherwise he's a cipher to me.

Brautigan: TNR has boatloads of good stuff and many, many, fine writers. Chait, Foer, Ackerman, Cohn, and Cottle just to name a few. Peretz's writing is like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard, but that's no reason to refuse to read anybody else on their masthead.

Posted by: Kevin Drum on June 24, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

Rats, Brautigan beat me by a minute, but I just couldn't resist trying. I'm coming to the Kos/TNR dustup a bit late, but Kevin has it right in that Markos is, indeed, an activist with a wide audience and he is doing what he seems to do best.

I wish more Dems had his passion and energy drive for whatever viewpoint they wish to espouse. I see too many progressives wishing for change, but they do not become involved in making that change happen.

My house representative is Democratic in name only, but I am in constant e-mail contact with his office to make my views known and, to his credit, his office always replies to my praise or criticism (most often criticism). I also do the same with my 2 Republican senators and they seldom reply to my concerns.

Posted by: fred on June 24, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, you missed the point why TNR is so angry at Kos. Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore

You've fallen behind, Al. The loony left message got taken out by YearlyKos. Now the message is that he's an unprincipled former Republican with his fingers on every blogging keyboard.

Posted by: JayAckroyd on June 24, 2006 at 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

Obviously that guy doesn't hang out in enough bars.

Posted by: cld on June 24, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

This entire "controversy" is pointless and boring. While The New Republic probably matches my ideological preferences closer than Kos does, I still have no problem with Kos' Lieberman primary challenge. This is the way democracies work. However, this entire debate has taken on juvenile levels. Who gives a shit about this stuff? Grow up people and lets get back to taking on real enemies and blogging about interesting topics. Not stupid pissing contests between two entities that (let's face it people) have had no real effect on policy decisions or election results. At least not yet anyway.

Posted by: Augie on June 24, 2006 at 12:53 PM | PERMALINK

"Kevin, you missed the point why TNR is so angry at Kos. Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore"

This nonsense is completely at odds with what Kos espouses..yes, as Kevin notes, Kos is an activist. He is entitled to be one and have opinions. Yet his overriding goal is to elect Democrats. Many that he supports are moderate/conservative.

It is Ned Lamont's right to run and, a fact that has escaped the likes of Al, Lamont will win or lose by a vote of Connecticut Democrats. To my knowledge, Kos gets zero votes in this, nor is his presumed influence worth a gnat's ass with Connecticut voters.

Posted by: Mudge on June 24, 2006 at 12:56 PM | PERMALINK

"Kos is an activist, The New Republic is a magazine."

No. They are both political blogs, but one of them has a paper magazine tethered to its neck.

Sound familiar?

Posted by: Libby Sosume on June 24, 2006 at 12:57 PM | PERMALINK

yesssss, kevin, lucifer and i are very proud of you.

*insert maniacally evil laugh here followed by cough*

now quickly, get back here and peel my grapes, monkey boy.

Posted by: karl rove on June 24, 2006 at 1:09 PM | PERMALINK

"the Democratic Party must prove its a big tent party which accepts different points of views like the Republican Party"

Wow. Just wow. Bwahahaha!

Posted by: charlyvi on June 24, 2006 at 1:14 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, unfortunately the 5 you mentioned are about all, not "a few", of the TNR writers worth reading these days. Plus Lizza....maybe. Zengerle and Crowley seem to aspire to be Mickey Kaus Jr., except, unlike Kaus, able to form complete sentences. Scheiber's much the same these days. And then there's Easterbrook.

Posted by: Adam on June 24, 2006 at 1:16 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder why it is that expressing an opinion about an election is termed "fascism." The use of the term signals the verbal impoverishment of the writer more than it communicates any substance in the accusation. I suspect that we are looking at a clash of strategies here: Kos is looking at a Democratic Party that needs to be refurbished before it can become a winner. TNR may perhaps be thinking about that crucial 51st Democratic senator in the November elections. Both have a point, but I suspect that Kos has a more realistic long term view.

Posted by: Bob G on June 24, 2006 at 1:18 PM | PERMALINK

If his fingers are on my keyboard, maybe he could give me a courtesy wank?

Posted by: anon on June 24, 2006 at 1:22 PM | PERMALINK

In order to win, the Democratic Party must prove its a big tent party which accepts different points of views like the Republican Party.

If you're poor, gay or lesbian, a feminist, African-American and multicultural, a non-evangelical Christian or an atheist, a supporter of labor unions, an environmentalist, a civil libertarian, a pro-choice advocate, a gun control supporter or a public school teacher, the GOP's "big tent" will deny admittance.

The GOP's "big tent" is too full of plutocrats, homophobes, misogynists, white supremacists and racists, sanctimonious theocrats and Christianists, union-busters, corporate polluters, panty-sniffers, anti-choice zealots, gun nuts and home schoolers.

Gee, maybe Al is right. The GOP is a "big tent" party. Too bad the tent is full of assholes.

Posted by: Ken on June 24, 2006 at 1:27 PM | PERMALINK

Don't'cha just love the fake concern for the well-being of the Democratic Party that Al and hundreds of conservatives like him frequently express? And funny how their advice is always: be less liberal, that's what the Dems need. Be more like us.

I think we can find our own way quite well, thank you.

Now, back to the dust-up: the 'Lieberman problem,' like the DLC problem and to some extent the TNR problem, is not that they're insufficiently liberal. Sen. Ben Nelson is at least as conservative as Lieberman, but the difference is, Nelson sticks up for Democrats and Democratic ideas. So nobody on the left has a problem with him.

Lieberman, OTOH, aims all his guns leftward. He's not nearly as concerned, publicly, with what the GOP is doing to undermine this country of ours, as he is with criticizing anyone who feels we ought to stand up and fight the GOP rather than roll over for them. And that's why the lefty blogsphere dislikes Lieberman.

Ditto the DLC. And to a certain extent (but noticeably less so than Holy Joe or the DLC), ditto the New Republic.

Posted by: RT on June 24, 2006 at 1:27 PM | PERMALINK

You've fallen behind, Al. The loony left message got taken out by YearlyKos. Now the message is that he's an unprincipled former Republican with his fingers on every blogging keyboard.

Well, Chairman Kos (the Most Equal Pig) would know a thing or two about how to control a message, right?

I mean, what with his secret Townhouse Conspiracy telling the fellating lefty blogswarmer cadre what to write about (and what NOT to write about). All very hush-hush.

The question on everyone's mind here, I am sure, is: what is/was Mr. Drum's role in this sordid little geekfest/backroom ugliness? Was he excluded from the clubhouse? Or was he shown the secret handshake? Which is worse?

Or, the REAL question, I know, is whether Jerome Armstrong can succeed in sanitizing his hard drives and servers. I mean, he's fucking ASTROLOGIST! Not likely, given the fact that the Internet is eternal. (Just like the stars!) Since Taurus is in the Third House, and the Kuiper Belt is ascending over Neptune, my prediction is that Jerome's policial corruption/consultancy career is about ten seconds from total meltdown.

Didn't Madame Jerome and the Most Equal Pig write a book together?

I wonder if the Democrat politicians who pay him (before he gives the Most Equal Pig his cut, of course) known that he goes back to his hotel room and deals out of a tarot deck before he crafts his next press release.

Great little people-powered movement you losers have got going for yourselves.

Posted by: Blue Dave on June 24, 2006 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

Primary, this will mean the effective end of the Democratic Party as a viable party in America because moderates and conservatives will see the extremists have taken over the Democratic Party. Instead, Kos is now giving the orders in the Democratic Party and will expel anyone who doesn't agree with him.Posted by: Al on June 24, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK emphasis mine

"The Democratic party a viable party in America" ------ coming from Al??????

This is incontrovertible proof that Al either has no true conviction of his archived posts or really does copy and paste from someone else. OR, maybe both.

Posted by: jcricket on June 24, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, you missed the point why TNR is so angry at Kos. Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore.

Casey, Webb, Spitzer, Schweitzer, Nelson... will be shocked to learn that they are the "Moore left" of the party.

I nominate Al for the "Santorum Award." AKA the biggest idiot in the GOP award.

Posted by: Mike S on June 24, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

The main problem with the Democratic Party is that its members do not listen to the advice of Republicans and Republican supporters within the Democratic Party like TNR and Peter Beinart and Joe Lieberman.

If the Democrats just followed what these guys tell them, the Republican Party would never win any elections, and the Party of Lieberman will triumph.

Posted by: nut on June 24, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

It's the "Microsoft face" part that slays me.

Kos, because he is not an idiot, runs linux.


<rant>Not some shrinkwrapped IP-encumbered candy-coated marketing-weasel-stoked gobbet of randomly peforming corporatist spooge.</rant>


Don't these clowns at TNR do any research?

Posted by: lambert strether on June 24, 2006 at 1:43 PM | PERMALINK

Dear nut,

Do not forget The Moose, Marshall Wittman.

Posted by: Mudge on June 24, 2006 at 1:56 PM | PERMALINK

I think what is really bugging TNR is that Kos is challenging TNR's sacred cows, like the war in Iraq and Joe Lieberman.

For years TNR has been able to define liberalism. They have depicted anyone to the left of Lieberman as a "fringe lefty". Michael Moore, Howard Dean, Ted Kennedy..........they were all crazed lefties according to TNR. Not to be taken seriously. By defining liberalism as Lieberman style accomodation to the right they have pushed the political discourse to the right. Liberal blogs are challenging this dynamic and the TNR doesn't like it.

Posted by: Nan on June 24, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

"Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore."

This is pure bs. Kos is not going after Harry Reid or Robert Byrd or Nelson from Nebraska, all of whom are way to the right of Lieberman. He is going after Lieberman because Lieberman is doing serious damage to the Democratic party.

Posted by: Nan on June 24, 2006 at 2:04 PM | PERMALINK

Fascistic forces? Gosh. I wonder how this clown would characterize the wonderfully democratic Cheney administration?

Posted by: Pechorin on June 24, 2006 at 2:07 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin: You're on to something. Apples and oeanges have no need to fight.
But TNR is upset with kos for the simplest reason possible-jealousy. Marty Peretz is the typical rich guy who bought a media outlet-he thinks that's the only path to influence.
kos has chosen an earlier and more effective path. He's building an interest group, a non-geographically based political machine, or community if machine is too pejorative, though it shouldn't be.
kos's community can help Democrats get elected. It can raise money, and even better, human volunteer capital for campaigns. It doesn't just reach a way bigger audience than TNR, ir helps nudge, persuade, etc. said audience into action.
They're aren't enough kossacks to GET a pol elected, but they can sure help more than TNR can. Ergo, Denocratic bigwigs are spending more time buttering up the kos crew, and less time doing the same to Marty Peretz. No wonder he's mad.

Posted by: JMG on June 24, 2006 at 2:12 PM | PERMALINK

I once subscribed to TNR. I like Kos, but don't consider his blog infallible. Our invasion of Iraq was morally wrong and incompetently done. It came from a. animus toward Saddam Hussein who was an evil dictator b. Somalia-schmertz - Cheney thought that the US failed in Somalia because it was soft and wouldn't take casualties, when in fact the problem was intervening in a civil war with insufficient troops and no understanding of local culture- Father Bush, Clinton and Cheney-Bush all drew the wrong conclusions about Somalia; the CIA is still stuck like a broken record c. The foolish idea the war would be quick, cheap, and easy and that costs could be repaid from Iraq oil production.
Nobody from Congress will become President in 2008. Those people (R & D both) have abdicated their job, can't possibly supervise operations that they don't know about, are spending and earmarking like drunken sailors. They prattle on about a plan in Iraq when the so-called Democratic government hides from its own people inside the green zone. Of course, those guys tell us to stay. They rightly fear for their lives and should be allowed to evacuate when we pull out.
Beinart and his crew are too close to the boots of the Washington inner circle, and too busy licking them.
Lieberman is Bush lite. He thinks that killing Arabs and Palestinians will end the problems in the Middle East. I save my money for local campaigns, but people like me, mobilized by Kos and Emily's list, will ensure that nobody who voted for the Iraq invasion becomes President and that those inside the Beltway remain uncomfortable. I attach no more importance to TNR than to Fox News. Each can state their opinion.

Posted by: maracucho on June 24, 2006 at 2:22 PM | PERMALINK

Well, why is TNR losing all that circulation lately, while, say, The Nation is gaining? There has to be a reason. That might be in the background too.

I think at the root of TNR's tension with the blogosphere is the "contrarian" identity that is sometimes more precious to the magazine's writers than "liberal" is, although they may not see it that way.

To be a contrarian you need people on several sides--including "your" side--to push off of (meaning dispute, criticize, attack so you can be contrary to them) and there is nothing more tempting to the contrarian critic's mind than an activist and his shtick.

Trouble is TNR contrarianism can be shtick too. And the people you are pushing off from so you can shine in your contrarian pose don't necessarily appreciate being part of that system. They never did. But now those people have blogs and comment threads.

Oh, and Kos's post about TNR belonging fully to the right now was indeed ill-considered, intemperate, contradictory-- pretty much a mess.

Posted by: Jay Rosen on June 24, 2006 at 2:30 PM | PERMALINK

You say you're a TNR subscriber, Kevin?

Wow. There aren't many of those. "Autonomous Rebel" indeed.

As a political writer, saying you read both DailyKos (a) and TNR (b) is like saying you eat regularly (a) and enjoyed your time swinging a golf club on the Moon (b).

Posted by: Timothy on June 24, 2006 at 2:47 PM | PERMALINK

maracucho: "...but people like me, mobilized by Kos and Emily's list, will ensure that nobody who voted for the Iraq invasion becomes President and that those inside the Beltway remain uncomfortable."

Hear, hear. Double hear, hear.

Posted by: Libby Sosume on June 24, 2006 at 2:53 PM | PERMALINK

I've been a subscriber and quitter of TNR twice. I quit it the first time in the runup to the 1st Iraq war, then rejoined during the Clinton years, only to quit in total disgust with the advent of the tragedy of the current Bush administration. Too bad because they indeed have some good writers but the Lieberman style "liberalism" that hovers is too apparent. It would be politically incorrect to give this a more accurate name.

Posted by: RWH on June 24, 2006 at 3:10 PM | PERMALINK

"...but people like me, mobilized by Kos and Emily's list, will ensure that nobody who voted for the Iraq invasion becomes President ..."

My, someone's got a vastly overinflated sense of his power and importance.

Posted by: jason on June 24, 2006 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

i think there's a further issue at hand here. by and large, the new republic is dominated by peoplel who think that politics is an interesting matter about which we can exchange subtly nuanced views, as if we were talking about art. blogs are dominated by people who think that politics matters enormously to how we live our lives and who actually, therefore, care what happens.

caring, being to the new republic, so declasse....

Posted by: howard on June 24, 2006 at 3:16 PM | PERMALINK

"Kos is an activist, TNR is a magazine...."

I'm not sure if that distinction is all that rigorous or helpful.

Is TNR not interested in swaying opinion, in producing outcomes in the public sphere, in governmental policy? Why are they NOT "activist"? Isn't DailyKos's community of writers bolstering its commentary in part by keeping its readership informed of what is going on in the world? Why is it NOT an online "magazine"?

Is it because one is on paper, and the other is not? Is it because one is a Beltway organ with paid writers and one is not?

And if "activist" means "I can safely ignore him," then TNR is the true activist.

Posted by: pfd on June 24, 2006 at 3:37 PM | PERMALINK

"The New Rpublican" - the best litter box liner and toilet paper substitute D.C. produces (other than anything out of the White House)

Posted by: TCinLA on June 24, 2006 at 3:48 PM | PERMALINK
Should I consider myself insane because I read and enjoy both?
Yes. If they're acting this immaturely, you should be ignoring both. Posted by: Capt. Jean-Luc Pikachu on June 24, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin Drum WISH'S like fuck that he could be insanely great...at best he can aspire to inane. He's got inane down cold with his never-ending tepid ' Bush Lite' line of Vichy Dem bs.
Kevin Drum - if he is a real ' political animal' is technically what they call a ' Spiderpause'.
Look up ' inane' in the dictionary and it says...
' See Kevin Drum.'

Posted by: professor rat on June 24, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

Once upon a time...I was a young marine, we had a banner that said:
"First to go, last to know, we will defend to the death your right to be missinformed, United States Marine Corps"
The First Amendment of our Constitution is of paramount importance to our way of life...the blogosphere is merely the most recent incarnation of it...200 years ago, they had pamphleteers...I welcome your comments even though I disagree with the content of your message.

Posted by: Rich V on June 24, 2006 at 4:51 PM | PERMALINK

"Trouble is TNR contrarianism can be shtick too."

TNR contrarianism *is* a shtick. It amounts to striking poses. Just read Mickey Kaus who has become a Coulter groupie escorting her to parties. He is saying, look at me, look how cool I am.

I am OK with contrarianism but not the reflexive, lazy TNR type. TNR contrarianism has become to predictable.

Posted by: Nan on June 24, 2006 at 5:36 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, you missed the point why TNR is so angry at Kos. Kos is trying to drive out all of the moderates/conservatives like Joe Lieberman out of the party so that only the left like you and Michael Moore belong the Democratic Party anymore.

Casey, Webb, Spitzer, Schweitzer, Nelson... will be shocked to learn that they are the "Moore left" of the party.

I nominate Al for the "Santorum Award." AKA the biggest idiot in the GOP award.

Posted by: jazzi j on June 24, 2006 at 7:38 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin,
Presumably you are aware that the TNR article penned by Stephen Glass' fact checker is in large part based on fake information fed to him by unknown sources? To quote Mr. Greenwald:

]]] (3) As several people have pointed out several times, and as I have tried to make as clear as possible, the issue is NOT whether the Steve Gilliard e-mail is fake (we know that it is; it was not sent to Townhouse). The issue is - HOW did Zengerle end up publishing a fake e-mail? Did he lie about having 3 sources? Did he only have one unreliable source which - in his haste to attack the blogosphere - he used without any confirmation? We know that he posted a fake e-mail. That seems journalistically irresponsible. Now the question - which only Zengerle can answer - is how that happened. [[[

Posted by: Cranky Observer on June 24, 2006 at 9:03 PM | PERMALINK

> I like Kos, but don't consider
> his blog infallible.

Interesting. Sincere commentator, or Radical "concern troll"? Hard to tell. Because of course DailyKos has 5 regular commentators/front-page-posters, selected (by the evil Shelob Markos of course) every 12 months from among the most popular non-insider commentators on the site. Then there are about 500 or so diaries posted per day, many of them by 1st time diarists. Plus of course highly technical postings (such as Jerome a Paris' energy series, or a similar series on bird flu) by knowledgable experts that start out as diaries but are often moved to the front page.

Ah, but because Markos reserves the right to publish on the front page of the site that bears his name then he is the master controller of all netroots thought. Riiiiiiiight.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on June 24, 2006 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

There have been a lot of very silly statements by pundits and others (like Al here) saying that the blogosphere is out to get Joe Lieberman because he supports the Iraq War. They don't talk about it so much, but his pro-life position is also a big negative to many of us. But that is not why I contribute to Lamont.

Actually, while those postitions of Joe's are rather grating to many of us, they have little to do with why much of the Democratic and Progressive blogoshpere wants Lieberman replaced. His problem is that because of his personal positions he spends all his media airtime attacking Democrats rather than Republicans. When was the last time he attacked a Republican or a Repubilcan position? I haven't seen it since he and Al Gore had the election stolen out from under them.

As a nationally known Democratic Senator, his attacks on Democrats damage the Democratic Party more than do the attacks of most Republicans. Joe is a major negative to the Democratic Party. Not because of his positions, but because he attacks Democrats almost as much as Karl Rove and Mehlman. do.

Joe Lieberman was given a great gift when Al Gore chose him as his running mate in 2000. It places Joe Lieberman on the national stage as one of the few nationally recognized Democrats. His inability to act as though he is a Democrat who supports the other members of his party is his great sin, not his personal positions.

It is Lieberman's failure to support the Democratic Party that has led to the effort to get him out of office, not his political positions. Let's hope it succeeds.

Posted by: Rick B on June 24, 2006 at 10:32 PM | PERMALINK

With any luck, KOS will pull most Democrat politicans left-ward. That way, they will be easier to defeat at the polls.

Posted by: Frequency Kenneth on June 24, 2006 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin is correct about the kindergarten perspectives of Kos and much of the left blogs (not Kevin). The amazing thing about Kos is how intellectually light he and his blog commenters are, yet they are getting all this attention and may even be becoming powerful.

It did not occur to me until I read the comments here, but if Kos and company beat Lieberman, it will be a disaster for the democrats. They aleady have the image of weak on national security, and the defeat of Lieberman will be played as the cut and run liberal democrats kicking out the one well known democrat who is strong on anti-terrorism, just 6 years after he was the vp candidate. Amazing. If the Republicans are smart, they will pull for Lieberman's defeat and then exploit it for the next 20 years, with McCain making him secretary of defense or some other significant position, so the soft on terrorism democrat message will be repeatedly endlessly.

Posted by: brian on June 25, 2006 at 1:04 AM | PERMALINK

Well, Kos IS a fascist in many ways. Look at the banning spree over people condeming all the Senate Dems who voted FOR Hayden to head the CIA, followed by the banning spree that came over the Armando "outing."

See messianicmarkos.blogspot.com for more.

Posted by: SocraticGadfly on June 25, 2006 at 4:09 AM | PERMALINK

Mudge is right. By and large, and quite sadly, Kos is NOT an idealist. In his own way, beyond wanting to elect Democrats, he's a would-be empire builder, including by fascistic means.

Posted by: SocraticGadfly on June 25, 2006 at 4:12 AM | PERMALINK

If you see Kos speaking, you will realize he represents nothing to fear as a quasi facist or anything else. Overall, he will be a minus for democrats, perhaps a significant one if Lieberman gets beat.

Posted by: brian on June 25, 2006 at 10:17 AM | PERMALINK

A couple of good diaries over on DailyKos today:

Goldberry provides an explanation of how DailyKos works, for newcomers, and Bob Johnson discusses the idea that DailyKos is a monolithic authoritarian site.

I recommend reading both.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on June 25, 2006 at 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

TNR is not just another magazine like Time or Newsweek but it has pretensions of many kinds as well. Such as being a kind of Democratic liberal high-minded pseudo-literary journal and much more besides.

Posted by: Ralph on June 25, 2006 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK




 

 

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