Condoleeza Rice... Need we say more?

The Clarence Thomas do is HIP, baby!

-fyreflye

Disturbing. I'm surprised that black insitutions are buying into white notions of acceptable hair.

Another political hair question: can someone with plugs (Biden) or a bad toupee (Allen) be elected president?

It's up to us to mitigate our dark skin and ethnic features by framing them with hair that's as neat and unethnic as possible.

And what's wrong with that? Companies are just requiring them to look like normal people and not look like weirdos. It's absolutely appropropriate for companies to require their employees to look normal. This is no different than companies requiring men to wear suits and women to wear skirts to work. This is just proper business attire. If you wish to work in the business world, you can't just look any way you want to. If you want to look and dress like a hippie, you shouldn't expect businesses to conform to your decision. You have to look normal and respectable and not look like a weirdo if you want a good job.

Naive question, I'll admit: How do you keep dreadlocks clean? Can you shampoo daily with those little beads on? If not, how often can you take them off and clean the hair? And how do you clean (or do you?) the matted, knotted hairstyle that Rastafarians wear?

As a bald guy, I'm just curious. I hope nobody's offended.

>The 60s have never left us, have they?
No. Get back to the back of the bus.

The 60s have never left us, have they?

Of course they have, Kevin. If they hadn't, the Democrats would still be in charge. Thank God the grown-ups have taken over.

I'm not trying to minimize the obvious racism of hunting down any black guy with dreads, but its not just blacks. Try being a long-haired white hippie and a) get a good job or b) not get suspected of drug possession.

Disturbing. I'm surprised that black insitutions are buying into white notions of acceptable hair.

I'm surprised that institutions—outside of, e.g., the army—are even concerned about "notions of acceptable hair", whether white, black, or otherwise.

You might not realize it in lilly-white coastal CA, Kevin, but Al, Hawk, and I know -- the darker the skin, the more scarier they are!

Can someone female and/or black tell me why Ms. Kaplan thinks dreadlocks are a more "natural" hairstyle for black women than, say, a short, neat, business-style cut?

And while I think forbidding outre hair on campus is bizarre -- I mean, if you can't get weird during college, when the hell can you -- it is not some horrible & unique imposition on black people that they are expected to wear tidy haircuts in most settings. So are the rest of us. I personally would love to wear my hair like I did in college, but I like feeding my kids on my professional salary even more.

Ms. Taylor complains that black women still have to wear extenders, wigs, etc. I doubt they "have to." I don't know why most black women don't just wear their hair short and neat, without altering its natural curl -- in the same way I don't really understand why most white women dress and groom as thoroughly as they do. But are there really any cases of black women getting fired for not wearing a wig or extender? I cannot imagine an employer who would give a damn if his black employee wore a short afro do instead of straightening her hair. And even Ms. Taylor admits that the painful chemical straightening of her youth (and was is it worse than, say, the Brazilian wax job that white AND black women routinely go through?) is not the norm anymore, so it's hard to see why she discusses it, unless it's because there is nothing really outrageous about today's practices but she dearly wants to drum up some outrage.

trilobite, why do you keep referring to the low cut as neat? Are you saying any other style or cut is not neat? Where is this business style nonsense coming from?

For your information, traditional African women don't wear low cuts, they have different type of hairdos that people liek you would consider not neat or not business like. So these women should change what they've been doing for thousands of years to fit your mold of what is considered neat?

Kev, I guess I don't really understand what your point is. Do you agree or disagree with her? For the record, I'm a white man who had long hair in college and short hair now. When I had long hair people frequently made comments that I looked like a stoner, a hippie, etc. I don't think race has much to do with it; there are certain hairstyles that will attract negative attention, and it's up to each individual to decide whether the negative attention is worth the desire to express oneself.

The 60s have never left us, have they? —Kevin Drum

More accurately - the rural areas and small town American never left the '50s.

Try being a long-haired white hippie and a) get a good job or b) not get suspected of drug possession.
Posted by: The Fool on July 12, 2006 at 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

In my experience, if you're handy with a computer, you can wear your hair however the fuck you want, and earn a really nice living.

(usually, though, you have to put aspirations for advancement to management aside).

This is absurd.

In a letter which Strain sent Thursday to the ACLU and made public Friday, he said it's basic police work to question anyone who matches a suspect's description.

Absolutely. If a quadruple murderer was identified with dreadlocks, then question people with dreadlocks. That is/was/always should be standard procedure, no matter how absolutely nuts the lefty PC crowd has become.

Also for the record, the guy didn't even specifically refer to any "blacks". That assertion was spontaneously invented in the minds of the loony libbies, who are actually RACIST for automatically making that assumption.

Somehow, I am in the mind of India.Arie's new song "I am not my hair" - this debate (and some of the more foolish opinions above) is really odd and more than a little silly. Black women do amazing things with their hair, and have expanded the notions of what's "professional" and "acceptable" in the process. Indeed, there are many ways for men and women to wear their hair, white black, Asian or whatever you are. As someone who likes to mix it up (including waist-length braids while serving as my company's receptionist), there's more possibilities than most people like to see or acknowledge. My only suggestion is don't be so quick to judge. And I am not my hair.

Hey sportsfan79, can I have part of you brain, I'm trying to build an idiot.

Where is Zidane whne you need him!!!

The 60s have never left us, have they?

They sure as hell have left us. In the 60's, civil rights were rightly pursued by people who actually had a legitimate point and purpose.

What's left over today are the nutty people who have taken it so far that the remarks of a single isolated police officer make national news - and they don't even reference a specific ethnic group.

Absurd.

Hey sportsfan79, can I have part of you brain, I'm trying to build an idiot.

I think you mean "your".

Don't worry, you already have your whole idiot.

TRILOBITE: Can someone female and/or black tell me why Ms. Kaplan thinks dreadlocks are a more "natural" hairstyle for black women than, say, a short, neat, business-style cut?

What about DeLay's hair? That shit is definitely suspicious.

It's the same everywhere-- I hang out with a group of industrial music fans, who have dreads, mohawks, giant tattoos and facial piercings, and I get shit for looking too conservative.

It's just human tribal behavior, nothing more. It's probably instinct that's hardwired into our brains- be wary of the outsider.

Wow, this is retarded. I'm a white guy from the suburbs, and I think dreadlocks are freaking cool.

I love it when people go to an amazing amount of trouble to cultivate and maintain a certain type of "alternative" hairstyle (growing dreads is not easy), essentially to express their individuality, and then get upset when other people notice that hair. I really like it when they say "I am not my hair." Well if that's the case, then why do you spend so much effort developing that very hair?

My wife works at an alternative boarding school and I am amused by the (white) kids that grow dreads and then get upset because that's what people notice about them. I actually think that they'd probably get more upset if people just ignored them.

An anesthsiologist had trouble intubating a patient for an emergency cesarean section because her hairstyle, which was covered by a scarf but apparently was quite rigid in the back and extended the back of her head a considerable distance, wouldn't allow her head to be tilted back at the appropriate angle. This was quite dangerous for the patient and her baby. We're talking not breathing here.

However, I can't imagine what the hospital could do to prevent this from happening again. Does anyone else have any experience with this? Just asking pregnant women to take their hair down near their due date wouldn't solve the problem for preterm labor or walk-ins. Is there a special pillow we could buy?

sportsfan79, you're truly an idiot. One of the bad things the cops can do in a situation like this while they are still investigating covertly is to make public announcement non chalantly like this idiot sheriff.

A change of appearance is definitely likely now since the murderer has an idea of the type of person they are looking for. You only make a public announcement if it is an emergency and you need to have the suspect apprehended immediately with the help of the public. Even so, more thought goes into how this is done and you usually need to give more information than just saying someone with dreadlocks.

As you can see, on the issue at hand, your comment was idiotic. WRT to your statements on liberals, well what can I say, once an idiot, always an idiot.

I don't get this. "Black" oriented media and "historically black" schools forbidding "black" hairstyles like braids????? It doesn't make much sense to me. Even(at least where I'm from) dreadlocks are quite common among perfectly neat, clean, unthreatening black people in all kinds of situations. So are braids. I see them all the time. And I don't think they're at all odd or inappropriate as long as the wearers try to keep their hair clean, etc. Incidentally, I'm a white person.
Anne G

Doesn't craigie have dreadlocks?

That's the way I've always imagined him for some reason....

Hey. This is real nuts! Zidane. Condolezza. You guys are cracking me up!

No, jayarbee, nobody can tell you because you are evidently unable to read a simple sentence and understand it, so there is no way to tell you anything. Also, you abuse ellipses, making it appear that you are deliberately distorting the facts. But I will make the attempt:

Ms. Kaplan referred to "braids, dreadlocks and other natural black hairstyles," and contrasted them to the sort of hairstyles preferred by Hampton University and unspecified "companies." She also, as you misquote, argued that "braids and other natural styles" -- an apparent reference back to "braids, dreadlocks, and other natural black hairstyles -- are "associated with socially conscious and self-confident black people, the kind who would fit nicely in corporate settings." By eliding the intervening words, you pretend that she stated that braids etc. DO fit nicely in corporate settings. She was, of course, arguing that they should. She contined "But companies tend not to hire them." I.e., the companies disagree with her. Or, in other words, in practice they do not fit nicely in corporate settings -- exactly the opposite of what you quoted Ms. Kaplan as saying.

May I suggest a remedial reading course?

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. It was an honest question, not intended snarkily -- is there something easier to maintain about dreadlocks or braids than a short haircut like most professionals I know (black and white) wear? They look labor-intensive and highly artificial to me, but as I have different hair and different social grooming expectations, I may be missing the obvious. Am I?

GOD (is that really your name? You must get a lot of wrong numbers), I did not mean to imply that only a short cut can look neat. Of course, it's the easiest way to look neat, so I was using it as an example of a truly "natural" look that is also acceptable in corporate settings. I'm sure there are others, but as I am not a hairdresser, I have no idea what to call them.

Long time reader delurking to say that one can wear their hair in braids (as I do) and A) look professional and B) do a very professional job.

I have worn my hair in braids for over two years for the following reasons:
A) it is cheaper to maintain (and one can clean one's hair with braids--you can buy shampoo in a spray bottle to get to the roots)
B) a short, neat do would not work for my head (since I have an odd shaped head and have a few bumps from falling off trees--but that's a different story)
C) relaxers damaged my natural hair over the years (and the scalp on your head covers more surface area than the area covered by a Brazilian wax--and by the way, not every woman gets waxing--this one doesn't)
D) my natural hair is so curly and long that it takes over an hour to detangle in the morning.

I have worked in Finance my entire career, mostly in banking, but just moved to a high-tech company. In these jobs, I have performed at a very high level and have received bonuses, raises, and above average performance reviews. No one, and I mean no one, has commented on my braids, except to say that they are beautiful/neat/cute, etc. I can not fathom how my braids would negatively affect company image, my own personal performance, or even my co-workers' performance.

"GOD" wrote:
sportsfan79, you're truly an idiot. One of the bad things the cops can do in a situation like this while they are still investigating covertly is to make public announcement non chalantly like this idiot sheriff.

Possibly, if they are investigating covertly. Or maybe they are making public statements to get the person to trip their hand and run.

In either case, I'll defer the proper handling of the case to a veteran law enforcement officer, rather than an (obviously not too bright) person who calls themself 'GOD' on a political message board.

Laughing at the notion of craigie in dreadlocks. I don't know why. I just am.

jayarbee has a rough side, sure, but he does not abuse ellipses.

This whole thread is just more ammunition for my dislike of corporate life. I started my own business partly so I can wear my permanently bedheaded hairstyle every day.

Also, wrt the Louisiana sheriff, is dreadlocks the only identifying feature of the suspect? Is the suspect male/female, young/old, short/old? As a 30 year old tall black woman with braids, I'd be hella pissed if I get a "visit" and am questioned on a crime where the suspect is described as a mid-to-late 40s woman (or man) under 5'5". And we are talking Louisiana here--the subtext to me says 'any/all black people with dreads.'

randomosity, thanks, that makes sense.

I actually do know that the scalp is larger than the labia & mons, thanks :) I still don't know which procedure is more painful and troublesome, and it sounds like you don't either. Not that it matters much.

Didn't mean to say that all women get wax jobs, just that some women of all races do.

I'm glad to hear that braids are acceptable at the office, and it tends to reinforce my suspicion that Ms. Kaplan was making a big deal over nothing much. Tho I suspect there may be some variance among offices. Dreadlocks, I think, are less tolerated, both because of their drug-culture association, and just because they are unusual. That may or may not make sense, but I can't see why it's racist. I have seen a fair number of whites in dreads.

I started my own business partly so I can wear my permanently bedheaded hairstyle every day. Posted by: shortstop, adding little, laughing a lot

So that's what they mean by an "in-call" hairstyle?

Definitely TMI about jayarbee :)

Definitely TMI about jayarbee :)

Aw, trilobite, you're jumping to conclusions. (Not for the first time, I might add; you seem to be doing it in about every thread here.) No, to clarify, I meant that jayarbee abuses semicolons. He, of course, will disagree.

JeffII: No. But good luck finding that falafel you were looking for yesterday!

And we are talking Louisiana here--the subtext to me says 'any/all black people with dreads.'

No, you have to keep sportsfan's theory in mind. The actual suspect is a pasty-faced Scots-Irish guy with thinning red hair and a scraggly beard, about five-foot ten -- think Shaggy from Scooby Doo. BUT, political correctness imposed on the sheriff by liberals everywhere forced him to put out a false description of the suspect.

However, in a fit of genius the sheriff turned the tables on those pesky liberals by cleverly giving a description of the suspect just vaguely racist enough to press the liberals' hot buttons and entrap THEM into making racist remarks -- all the while flushing out the real suspect through a sophisticated mixture of neurolinguistics and tele-hypnosis.

After which he saved the farm, drove off the bad guys, single-handedly thwarted an alien invasion, and helped a kitten down from a tree.

randomosity wrote:
Also, wrt the Louisiana sheriff, is dreadlocks the only identifying feature of the suspect? Is the suspect male/female, young/old, short/old? As a 30 year old tall black woman with braids, I'd be hella pissed if I get a "visit" and am questioned on a crime where the suspect is described as a mid-to-late 40s woman (or man) under 5'5".

No, dreadlocks are likely not the only identifying feature of the subject. I strongly suspect that other features have been identified as part of the investigation. But those features are not mentioned here, because the sheriff's statements have been taken out of context for the specific purpose of indicting him in the media.

For the record, my own personal opinion is that he should have practiced more discretion in his remarks. But I also believe that these remarks lack the specificity to be classified as 'racism', and that pusuit of them on this level amounts to a witch hunt.

sportsfan79, the comment about my handle on a political blog as well as the typo correction, really prove we are dealing with a prepubertal poster here.

The next time you get your ass handed to you on a blog because you're not making any sense, just go home and cry to mommy.

BTW, how do you know I'm not a law enforcement officer? Moron!!

BTW, how do you know I'm not a law enforcement officer? Moron!!

No stretch for me. I've always thought of God--or would if I believed in her/him/it--as a sort of super badass law enforcement officer.

Al: 'This is just proper business attire. If you wish to work in the business world, you can't just look any way you want to.'

Thanks, DAD!!!!

"The 60s have never left us, have they?"

Well, we no longer have our youngsters in the streets protesting an immoral war and its attendant evil administrators.

Well, we no longer have our youngsters in the streets protesting an immoral war and its attendant evil administrators.

Far, far fewer of them, for sure. Of course, still too many for the men in black to personally visit, although they do seem to be trying.

got to love the high-minded argument between god and sportsfan -- who's the idiot, who's the moron?

shortstop, i've come to the conclusion the bedhead look is in. im sure celebs spend a hell of a lot of money to get the same look i get just rolling out of bed.

TRILOBITE: No, jayarbee, nobody can tell you because you are evidently unable to read a simple sentence and understand it, so there is no way to tell you anything. Also, you abuse ellipses, making it appear that you are deliberately distorting the facts. But I will make the attempt:

Ellipses aside, semicolons notwithstanding, please point to me where exactly in Aubrey Kaplan's column does she say, as you assert, that dreadlocks are a more "natural" hairstyle for black women than, say, a short, neat, business-style cut?

Failing to do that will be a confirmation of your distortions and your abuses--making you, essentially, like most bugs, just an annoyance, suitable for swatting.

SPLAT!

Anyone ever notice how many of the folks making decisions about what counts as normal or not normal for ethnic hair are often victims of really bad comb-overs or toupees?

People need to be neat, presentable and professional when they are at work, but no one has ever made the case that nicely turned out braids, dreds, or natural cuts do not fit the bill. The only objection is that someone has deceided that they are not professional and all of the pushback asks who the heck are you to decide for us?

I don't know what the poster who asked about maintaining a short neat cut meant by that, but I have had fairly long black hair (of the 3b and 3c curly category) all of my life. Straightening took at least 45 mins in the AM, and I needed to invest in extra haircare products to make it all happen. And I needed all of that junk on the road for business trips.

For the past year and half, I've been marathon training and decided to go entirely wash and wear -- I wear my hair curly (not dreds) and out and the only reaction I get is how spectacular folks think my hair is. And I am a senior professional in a fairly conservative industry.

There's no good reason why a bunch of clueless white people should get to decide on what "professional" black hair looks like.

'GOD', I read through your whole post (which was a mistake) looking for the obligatory declaration of "idiot!", or "moron!". For once I thought you might get through a whole post without it, but I should have known better.

By the way, I'm not going to waste time on further posts of yours unless they actually contain a substantive point.

Cassandra, I don't know why a bunch of clueless white people should get to decide on what professional ME hair looks like, yet somehow there it is.

Also, I'm glad to hear nobody minded your untweaked hair. That's what I said in the first place, that nobody really cares as long as it looks neat.

jayarbee, I resent that: trilobites are not insects. Apart from that, I'm glad you're having fun with the sound effects and all, but I answered your question already. I don't know how to say it more clearly. Where are you having trouble understanding? Do you know what the word "contrast" means?

Shortstop, see, this is just what I meant. Do I need to know what jayarbee's personal relations with semicolons are like? No, this sort of thing should be kept behind locked doors. Next you'll be telling me how he dangles his participles.

They [the 60s] sure as hell have left us. In the 60's, civil rights were rightly pursued by people who actually had a legitimate point and purpose.

... and, I might point out, were vehemently opposed by people like you.

sportsfan79, you can't talk about substansive discussion when the first thing you post is calling liberals names. We were actually having a rather collegial discussion until you joined with your rants against liberals.

Alek Hidell wrote:
... and, I might point out, were vehemently opposed by people like you.

Assume much?

Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

TRILOBITE: jayarbee, I resent that: trilobites are not insects. Apart from that, I'm glad you're having fun with the sound effects and all, but I answered your question already. I don't know how to say it more clearly. Where are you having trouble understanding? Do you know what the word "contrast" means?

Shortstop, see, this is just what I meant. Do I need to know what jayarbee's personal relations with semicolons are like? No, this sort of thing should be kept behind locked doors. Next you'll be telling me how he dangles his participles.

Hmmphk. Major thing about women's hair I'd think if I were hiring someone is: a) is it neat and professional looking? b) will it get in the way?

I think what a lot of people worry about dreadlocks is the fear that the person will stink. (I know nothing about dreadlocks--are there problems? How does one keep the hair clean?)

For myself, I love most of the braids I've seen on Afro-American women. Gorgeous!

Hampton University and the other Historically Black Colleges are very conservative in general. As it goes, most middle class black people, (especially from the South) are fairly conservative, (i.e. Condelessa Rice) which is a big reason why all these anti-gay marriage laws got a lot of play in black churches in 2004.

Laughing at the notion of craigie in dreadlocks. I don't know why. I just am.

Well, I can't help you there. But I can reveal that I do own a huge 70s afro wig, which my wife bought me. Apart from being funny in itself, it now means that we are on the most extraordinary mailing lists...

Visualize all you want, jayarbee, but you shall never touch my ovipositor!

Assume much? Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

I'll answer anyway. I felt it was a safe assumption. If I've misjudged you, I apologize. But reactionary conservatives who supported the civil rights movement weren't exactly common.

What is common is the conservative habit of looking back at once-contentious social movements as if you've recognized the rightness of the cause all along, when in fact your ideological equivalents at the time did not recognize them at all.

TRILOBITE: Visualize all you want, jayarbee, but you shall never touch my ovipositor!

Sweet Jesus! I go make a long phone call with a client who's so dangerously subversive that he digs my hair (but he's loaded, so cool), and this thread blows to pieces!

Seriously, the various exchanges going on here together gave me the best laugh I've had all week. Almost.

ButI can reveal that I do own a huge 70s afro wig, which my wife bought me

And is that for any particular type of role playing game that we should know about.

And is that for any particular type of role playing game that we should know about.

Yeah! Step off jayarbee's personal construction and let's hear about the craigie household's version of "(Won't You Take Me to) Funkytown?"

One college, one sheriff, and one Black magazine, and we have the racism of the 1960's? Give me a break.

Alek H. wrote:
What is common is the conservative habit of looking back at once-contentious social movements as if you've recognized the rightness of the cause all along, when in fact your ideological equivalents at the time did not recognize them at all.

I can tell you are being earnest in that post, Alek, so I'd like to respond.

I have seen that point made elsewhere, and I sort of see where you are coming from with it. For example, skinheads today would have likely supported Hitler if they had lived in the 40's. Seems pretty reasonable.

However, where it breaks down is in its universal application. To make the assertion "your ideological equivalents", is not reasonable. What are a person's "equivalents", and who gets to definitively choose them? To say that because a person is a conservative today, they would be a cross-burning KKK member 50 years ago is an unfair characterization, and more importantly, it is innaccurate.

Moreover, I believe today's democratic party is vastly different from the party of JFK, and the republican party has changed as well.

"(Won't You Take Me to) Funkytown?"

Actually, we call it "Mod Squad"...

Actually, we call it "Mod Squad"...

What about the children?!?!

That's hilarious, because I was just constructing some kind of post that had "my god! the children!" in it.

You mind reader you!

To say that because a person is a conservative today, they would be a cross-burning KKK member 50 years ago is an unfair characterization, and more importantly, it is innaccurate.

Bit of a strawman there: I didn't say you'd be a "cross-burning KKK member." That's an extreme. I simply said you'd probably oppose the movement, and would have your own rationalizations for doing so. As William F. Buckley did, for example.

One of the reasons I'm not a conservative (or, more precisely, not a reactionary conservative of the type that dominates today) is that the history of the past century has shown conservatives to be wrong on nearly every important social/cultural movement that's come along. From America First/isolationism in the 1930s to the preposterous Red-baiting of the 1940s-1950s to the civil rights struggles of the 1950s-1960s, and including such things as the eight-hour work day, Social Security, and Medicare, you've been wrong on issue after issue.

You're wrong - and are going to lose - on gay rights as well, though it will take years.

Moreover, I believe today's democratic party is vastly different from the party of JFK, and the republican party has changed as well.

Yes. They've both moved to the right - to the country's detriment.

One of the reasons I'm not a conservative (or, more precisely, not a reactionary conservative of the type that dominates today) is that the history of the past century has shown conservatives to be wrong on nearly every important social/cultural movement that's come along. From America First/isolationism in the 1930s to the preposterous Red-baiting of the 1940s-1950s to the civil rights struggles of the 1950s-1960s, and including such things as the eight-hour work day, Social Security, and Medicare, you've been wrong on issue after issue.

Well said, sir.

One of the reasons I'm not a conservative (or, more precisely, not a reactionary conservative of the type that dominates today) is that the history of the past century has shown conservatives to be wrong on nearly every important social/cultural movement that's come along. From America First/isolationism in the 1930s to the preposterous Red-baiting of the 1940s-1950s to the civil rights struggles of the 1950s-1960s, and including such things as the eight-hour work day, Social Security, and Medicare, you've been wrong on issue after issue.

I notice you didn't include the abortion issue. Does that mean you can be liberal and anti-abortion (rights)? Lord knows, I hope so.

I'm still surprised that a historically black campus forbids "unusual" hairstyles--including braids. Are we talking both "dreads" here, a la Rastafarian, and traditional plaits and corn-rows?

GOD proposes that "traditional African women don't wear low cuts, they have different type of hairdos that people liek you would consider not neat or not business like". My understanding--having lived in Nigeria for a number of years--is that the women in that part of Africa (at least) tend to have hair that is naturally "short". It doesn't grow long enough for the full dreads look. They would spend hours plaiting each others' hair, and then wrap their heads in yards of exquisite cloth. It produced a wonderful effect. Here are two googled pictures that I liked: one of Yoruba women from 1953 and the other of two women dressed for church. I would be surprised if anyone, even the Louisiana sheriff or a corporate executive, would object to variations of this look. It is colorful, modest, flattering. So why would black colleges object?

OTOH, I have yet to meet a white woman who is satisfied with her hair. We color our hair, we straighten and perm it, we use products and hair extenders to achieve a fuller, glossier look. We lacquer it to get it to stay in place. Yes, yes, yes, it's all due to male oppression. That's why little girls want to play hairstylist or comb the manes of "my little pony."

It's a tricky balance. I am confident that black women feel discontent because they can imagine better hair than theirs, but how much of that is due to racism and how much of that is the discontent that all women have with their particular hair?

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This sheriff is probably a racist prick. On the other hand, I do think officers of the law should be able to randomly beat white guys with dreads and white women with beaded hair.

Amusing thread.

I have a guess what "trilobite" refers to, but I don't think I should repeat it -- even on a totally unmoderated blog like Kevin's ...

Bob

Alek H. wrote:

One of the reasons I'm not a conservative (or, more precisely, not a reactionary conservative of the type that dominates today) is that the history of the past century has shown conservatives to be wrong on nearly every important social/cultural movement that's come along. From America First/isolationism in the 1930s to the preposterous Red-baiting of the 1940s-1950s to the civil rights struggles of the 1950s-1960s, and including such things as the eight-hour work day, Social Security, and Medicare, you've been wrong on issue after issue.

Yes, the Civil War was just the beginning of republicans on the wrong side of the issue.

Your whole paragraph was written with blinders on. And I can see that you actually believe what you write, which is unfortunate. Everything from the "reactionary conservative" comment, to all the rest. So you think "reactionary conservatives" dominate the party? Go back on this thread, or any thread, and see which side is lobbing more insults and profanity. That will give you a clue as to which side is more "reactionary", since it's obviously not sinking in.

Yes, the Civil War was just the beginning of republicans on the wrong side of the issue.

Huh? If you think the GOP of the past ninety years is within shouting distance of Lincoln's GOP, you're deluded.

Your whole paragraph was written with blinders on. And I can see that you actually believe what you write, which is unfortunate. Everything from the "reactionary conservative" comment, to all the rest. So you think "reactionary conservatives" dominate the party? Go back on this thread, or any thread, and see which side is lobbing more insults and profanity. That will give you a clue as to which side is more "reactionary", since it's obviously not sinking in.

Okay, please do me a favor and remove my blinders. What am I not seeing?

I really don't even want to comment on the thread business; it's absurd. You think this thread, or any thread, is populated by people who dominate the party? Please. The problem with the Democratic Party is not that it's dominated by its left-wing elements, but that it is not. People don't want a choice between GOP and GOP-lite, which is what they've been getting.

Consider a speech once made by a prominent Democratic politician: in it he said that "[T]he Democratic Party is the people’s party, and the Republican Party is the party of special interest, and it always has been and always will be." He called a Republican tax cut a "rich man’s tax bill" that "helps the rich and sticks a knife into the back of the poor." He said that politics is a contest between the "common everyday man" and the "favored classes," the "privileged few." Then he discussed some specific policies, with special emphasis on jobs, health care, and labor rights. He called for the construction of public housing, an increase in the minimum wage, expansion of Social Security, a national health-care program and the repeal of anti-labor laws.

Whoa! What out-of-touch, wacko lefty moonbat said all that? Cindy Sheehan? Michael Moore? Howard Dean?

Nope: Harry Truman, in 1948. A man from small-town Missouri, running for re-election (which he won).

Now, I ask you, which Democrat would call for all that today? And what would the response of the right-wing chorus be?

Brother, we ain't even close to being reactionary. (Reactionary, by the way, doesn't equal "angry" or "profane." It means you lack any principle beyond reacting to the exigencies of the moment. Examples on today's GOP side are too numerous to mention.)

The 60s have never left us, have they?

I lived more than half my life in Mississippi, and spent quite a bit of time in St. Tammany Parish as well. There are lots of places down there that the 1860's have never left.

Fade, what makes you think they don't? Had one handcuff me, when I was 15, then my head hit his Maglite. Sgt. Ketterman. Ah, the memories...
Never have met one that acted anything like Andy Griffith :-(

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Huh? If you think the GOP of the past ninety years is within shouting distance of Lincoln's GOP, you're deluded.

If you think today's democratic party is withing shouting distance of JFK's or FDR's party, you're deluded. JFK understood national defense. Not so for today's left.

I really don't even want to comment on the thread business; it's absurd.

I can understand why you'd want to dodge that point. The one thing I've learned from reading the WM website is that the leftists are far, far, FAR more rude, profane, and vociferous than their conservative counterparts. Again, review any thread on the site, and you'll have concrete evidence. Note that this tendency also applies to the general public. Though, that's often the case only because leftists are generally younger people, who become conservative as they mature in age.

Lastly, your theory that both parties have moved to the right is erroneous. The parties are moving to the left, as observable societal trends prove. Trends toward political-correctness, relaxing of values, decline in practicing religious people, etc.. Generally speaking, today's left is yesterday's radical left. Of course, I understand that no one on this website will agree with that. But the American public in general agrees. Which is why the dems are not in power or majority in any branch of federal government.

The reason that requiring black people to have hairstyles that require straightening, etc. is racist, is that these hairstyles are much more difficult, more painful, more time consuming, and more expensive than braids or dreads. It's also more expensive for black people than white. If "normal" means "acting the way white hair acts" (ie, not easily forming dreads, being straight), then black people are going to have a hell of a time trying to get their hair to be "normal". Dreads are NOT hard to make if you're black- they form naturally (as they do on some white people). And Trilobite, for god's sake, there are a million things more painful than straightening. So what? How many professional jobs *require* Brazilian wax jobs? Why is it ok to force black people to keep hairstyles that look "white," and cost the black people more money, time, etc? If it costs the white people $20 to keep a given hairdo, and $60 for black people ***just because of the natural makeup of their hair*** how is this not racist? Having black hair is not a matter of choice. It's not like a white kid deciding to have dreads in college; black hair is not something you can grow out of.

I can understand why you'd want to dodge that point. The one thing I've learned from reading the WM website is that the leftists are far, far, FAR more rude, profane, and vociferous than their conservative counterparts. Again, review any thread on the site, and you'll have concrete evidence. Note that this tendency also applies to the general public. Though, that's often the case only because leftists are generally younger people, who become conservative as they mature in age.

Absurd, preposterous, utterly deluded. Try reading a thread at LGF or RedState sometime. Read Jeff Goldstein. Read Atlas Shrugs (or view her "vlogs"). Hell, for that matter, read Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin. You won't have trouble finding reactionary comments at any right-wing site, because the few that actually allow comments at all will delete liberal posts and ban the poster. Look at the hysteria that surrounded Terri Schiavo. And don't just look at the "rudeness" or "profanity": look at what they say - what they advocate. Many conservatives have learned to maintain a calm and measured demeanor while saying abominable things.

To the extent that liberals' tempers are short, it's because we've grown quite tired of the lying propaganda, strawmen, false dichotomies, urban legends, question-begging, emotional appeals, generalizations, stereotypes, post hoc ergo propter hoc, and slippery slopes from the right.

Lastly, your theory that both parties have moved to the right is erroneous. The parties are moving to the left, as observable societal trends prove. Trends toward political-correctness, relaxing of values, decline in practicing religious people, etc.. Generally speaking, today's left is yesterday's radical left. Of course, I understand that no one on this website will agree with that. But the American public in general agrees. Which is why the dems are not in power or majority in any branch of federal government.

Wait - we're moving more to the left, so the electorate is rejecting the Dems? Does that make sense? Shouldn't they be more readily embracing the more-traditionally "leftist" party, since it's more in agreement with their supposed trends?

To the extent that liberals' tempers are short, it's because we've grown quite tired of the lying propaganda, strawmen, false dichotomies, urban legends, question-begging, emotional appeals, generalizations, stereotypes, post hoc ergo propter hoc, and slippery slopes from the right.

See, now I feel like you could delete "liberal" from that paragraph, insert "conservative", and it would be totally appropriate.

What this tells me is that we're going to have to agree to disagree. It also tells me that the incredibly polarized state of American politics often has both sides seeing the worst aspects of their counterparts.

Every once in a while, I find it beneficial to unplug from this site, and remind myself that leftists are just people that have similar cares and concerns as myself, and are not rabid haters.

sportsfan, try a more moderate and troll-free liberal site. Personally, I recommend http://lawandpolitics.blogspot.com/
or http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/

There's a fairly civil crowd hanging out at those two.

Thanks Trilobite, I'll give them a shot.

And for the record, I thought your post of 7/12 at 12:54p was very reasonable, and right on the money. I was nodding the whole time I read it.

All of the subsequent character assassination towards you was more proof that you nailed it.

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Lastly, your theory that both parties have moved to the right is erroneous. The parties are moving to the left, as observable societal trends prove.

"Observable societal trends" prove, if anything, which way the population is moving; the two major political parties account for a non-representative slice of the entire population, and, IIRC, a shrinking slice, at that. Its not impossible for the parties and the population at large to move in opposite directions.

Trends toward political-correctness, relaxing of values, decline in practicing religious people, etc..

Only the last of these is even an objective, observable trend (the first two are fuzzy subjective ranting topics of the right), and neither represents any movement of the two major political parties, in any direction.

Generally speaking, today's left is yesterday's radical left.

I suspect the main reason that no support is offered for this generalization is because there is no support to offer for it.

Of course, I understand that no one on this website will agree with that.

Well, the fact that its completely untrue and unsupported might have something to do with that.

But the American public in general agrees. Which is why the dems are not in power or majority in any branch of federal government.

Its certainly true that the Dems are presently out of the majority in the federal government.

But that doesn't justify any of the other claims you've made.

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