It doesn't appear to involve a crooked insurance company, but this scam wouldn't work with an honest one, would it?

Objection. Question presupposes the existence of an honest insurance company, which is a fact not in evidence.

You're not missing anything, Kevin. That won't stop the moonbats though. Once Reed wins the primary here Tuesday, then things are really going to heat up.

I love the phrase "the reptilian Ralph Reed."

You could even say "the reptilian Republican Ralph Reed" if "reptilian Republican" weren't redundant.

I'd imagine the deal worked such that the tribe couldn't afford Abramoff's fee outright, but could afford the monthly insurance payments. It would end up being the same amount or more in the end, because as you say the insurance companies ensure payments high enough to make some money. But, it wouldn't entail the big up-front cost. Abramoff would then be guaranteed the payoff at some future date.

Sure, it's legal. Wal-Mart was doing it with its workers a couple years ago:
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Insurance/P64954.asp

..you have to get the insured party to sign the policy, which I suppose was where the respected religious leaders come in. I'm sure they all would have gotten a cut...

I think the point is that the insurance company would be unlikely to issue a relatively cheap policy on the life of an elderly person. Yes, I think that would be true of both honest and dishonest insurers because either would be quite likely to lose money.

You missed the part where they were then going to give the Tiguas smallpox infested blankets.

Kevin,

Have you never heard of Abramoff Mutual Insurance? Probably run and financed by Brent Wilkes or Wade Mitchell.

Or something like that. I'm not quite devious enough to figure out the particulars of the money laundering. Ask Tom Delay.

Fine. Reed's a dick.

Kevin, why can't you and the left be polite with people you disagree with for once? You, Michael Moore, and the rest of the left call people you disagree with wankers and wingnuts all the time. Why can't you simply be polite and accept that there can be honest disagreements between the left and conservatives without throwing insults?

Al, don't bother. it's boring.

I'm thinking awkward money laundering and insurance broker sweetheart deal.

First Abramoff's company gets a charitible donation tax credit for providing life insurance to these folks. The insurance broker gets a cut right of the top. The insurance company can be completely clean too.

In case of death the laundering happens in the opposite order with the benefits going through another charity. Sure it is inefficient but at the right scale it could make even more money because of tax offset reasons.

Which kinda makes ya wonder if Wal-Mart gets a similar deal: make some friends richer through insurance brokering and get write-offs in case of dead employees.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes a dick is just a dick. Ralph Reed is a dick. There's no polite way to say it, Alpo.

Yeah, it's the tax writeoff that makes dead-peasant policies profitable. There would have been a deduction when the money went out to premiums, and then the "Academy" would have been tax-exempt when it got the money, as long as it spent/laundered it appropriately. So you essentially end up making a profit in the amount of the tax saved minus the insurance-company cut.

It's also possible that Abramoff was planning to scam an insurance company and get a better deal than he should have. (Or that some insurance company was willing to take a deductible loss on some policies in return for some favors from Abramoff.)

I think Al is making a joke. He knows all about the politeness evident in Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Bill O'Reilly, et al.

The "at no cost to the tribe" is the part that makes no sense. Who would pay for the policies?

I think Paul has is right, though I also believe insurance payouts may be tax free (which is why WalMart, not a charity, had such a scheme).

Anyway, it is a way to convert taxable income into tax free income. That is why it was no cost to the tribe. (If you have enough people enrolled, your payout should more or less equal your pay in.)

Is Doug M really Charlie? Tbrosz?

Oh, and Al, you are a dick.

David M., you're correct that life insurance benefits are usually tax free.

Yes, the "at no cost to the tribe" does not make sense. I suspect that the reporter got his facts wrong somehow.

"Dead peasant" insurance is just tax arbitrage--convert taxable bond returns into non-taxable insurance returns--but it isn't free.

Doesn't it just mean that Abramoff fronted the tribe the premiums?

I'm sure the whole tribe is insured, thus spreading the risk. A company I used to work for (Freddie Mac) did this with all the employees. The benefits went to the company. If I remember correctly, they were upfront about it, and we had to sign our agreement. There was no cost and no benefit to us personally.

You could even say "the reptilian Republican Ralph Reed" if "reptilian Republican" weren't redundant.

This is my favorite childish nickname yet! I don't think we even need the "Republican" part. Just call them the Reptilian Party.

I say we start a fund to pay the first Democratic pundit who can slip this into conversation on a talking-heads show.

You're not missing anything legally. The notion of the insurance policy itself probably isn't illegal.

But ask yourself this: What Would Jesus Do? Do you think Jesus would profit from the deaths of Indians and Black people?

Because profiting from the death of Indians and Black people is exactly what Pious Conservative Christian Republican Ralph Reed would have done.

There are a number of missing pieces in the description of the plan (whether they are fleshed out elsewhere, I don't know), for starters who is paying for the insurance, and who is providing it.

If nothing else, it sounds like it was a scam to use the Tigua as a focus to shift funds from the school (which, one assumes, does its own fundraising and is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit) to pay for Abrahamoff's lobbying, and pretend like its a funding arrangement that benefits the school, not just a way to fund lobbying.

Do you think Jesus would profit from the deaths of Indians and Black people?

Does their race matter? Would Jesus profit from the deaths of anyone?

Didn't Nazis take out insurance policies on Jews? I thought I heard something to that effect.

Janitor's Insurance, as the practice of employer's purchasing as beneficiaries life insurance their employees is much more widespread than just WalMart. It's a morbid way of fiddling with taxes. The policies can also be used as collateral on loans. I guess it was a combination of such loans and the tribe's being on the hook for the monthly payments that got Hacktus Jack interested.

I disgree with Mitt Romney, John McCain and Chuck Grassley. Reed, on the other hand, is a dick.

Possibilities:

1. There's some thought out there that insurance policies are "underpriced" in that the policies are priced with tthe expectation that a large percentage of them will be dropped before they ever mature. I don't know if I believe that, but it's a possible explanation why someone would make an investment into a large pool of policies with the belief that if they are all held until maturity it will be a a good investment.

2. Whole life and other similar insurance policies are priced with an initial year's commission to the agent of anywhere from 50% to 90% of the first year's premium. Perhaps some of that was going to be rebated to Mr. A.

3. Normally part of the appeal of life insurance is realizing tax free appreciation on the difference between the premiums and the death benefit, but that certainly wouldn't be a concern to a non-profit.

4. Maybe Mr. A was just getting sold a bill of goods by a fast talking insurance salesman.

Kevin, you have been following Federer a little too closely. This pratice, and its variants have been in the news for several years now.

As mentioned above Wal-Mart used to do it and as I recall even a large city was considering a version with its employees.

Makes a new meaning for the phrase, Merchants of Death.

Let's see, how could Abramoff make money buying insurance policies on old people?

Remember those two old ladies in LA who were taking out policies on homeless geezers and then killing them when the policies vested two years later? Hmmm.

Wasn't Abramoff tangentially involved in an underworld hit? Hmmm.

I'm also getting signals about Vince Foster on my foil hat.

BTW, When I look at Ralp Reed, I see Chucky.

Abramoff gets a commission from the insurance company for every premium paid.

But this couldn't amount to much at his scale of theft, even if he had the whole tribe ensured.

A penny squeezed is a penny earned?

the reptilian Ralph Reed

Unlike Bush, Ralph's tongue splits, his head begins to narrow and his skin becomes scaly, not from the aroma of fear from small children, but whenever he smells money.

Maybe he'd pay off the insurance company with political access.

There’s a step missing in that story
Life insurance premiums “for every Tigua 75 or older” would be extremely high.
I could see a group policy on every Tigua. But not for those whose life expentancy is less than 5 years.
The part about “at no cost to the tribe” is also a problem.
However, I’m confident that Mr Abromoff came up with something
creative.

Maybe he'd pay off the insurance company with political access
Maybe he’d pay-off the company’s President with an All Areas pass to Misty’s Pleasure Palace.

Kevin wrote: ... the reptilian Ralph Reed.

I object to your defamation of reptiles, innocent animals who share none of the distinctively human unpleasant characteristics of Ralph Reed.

The premiums would be astronomical, but an insurance company will underwrite and insure just about anything for a price. However, when the time comes to collect on the policy, the insurance companies will claim the policyholder did not have an "insurable interest" in the decedent. That way they can have their cake and eat it too.

Insurance companies don't pay those actuaries and attorneys a lot of money for nothing.....

Those ladies had to fight the insurers tooth and nail for a payout. For an insurer to bite, there would have to be some other incentive than just the business of insurance. It's hard enough to get life insurance when you're 50 let alone 75. Unless it's a form of group life insurance that doesn't require underwriting. That is always a possibility.

It is entirely possible that the proposal of the scheme happened and that the scheme would not have actually worked had it been attempted.

Uh Kevin, they aren't making money off the insurance. They're just using tribal elders to launder money. The old folks are providing a service and being paid for it in access to the administration.

The insurance company could be guilty of not reporting suspicious activity (although the current more stringent anti-money laundering rules were not in effect before May of this year). The real questions are 1) who was paying for insurance, 2) with what money, 3) who recieved the money from the school, 4) why, etc.

This type of laundering activity looks like that of a large organized crime organization. Which I guess it was. I'm guessing there are many leads still to unravel.

The Life Insurance on older/shorter life expentency Tigua isn't a problem - there will just be a low ratio of premiums to payout. (Essentially, it would function as a short-mid term bond with an unknown maturity.)

Others have commented on the tax-scam implications of this, essentially as a way to take pre-tax money and get it to Abramoff. It also launders the money.

Which brings to mind an interesting question. Abramoff had someone in mind for paying the premiums, and it wasn't the Tigua. It could have been Abramoff himself, as a pure tax dodge, but I have a feeling it wasn't. If someone wanted to purchase Abramoff's service, or ship money to some other group, this would be a way to do it - after all, no one specified that the tribe would have use of 100% of the money for paying Abramoff. Assuming they were merely getting a cut of the insurance proceeds (10% would be enough) leads on to wonder about where the rest was going.

So, to me, what's missing is where the premium money was coming from, and where the balance of the proceeds were supposed to go.

Doug M., seriously, I'd stop bragging to everybody about how you plan on voting for Ralph Reed. It renders everything else you say instantly vulnerable to dismissal of the "What a dumbass this guy is" variety, and you don't want that, do you?

Off-topic: Valerie Plame & Joe Wilson file a lawsuit against Cheney, Libby and Rove.

I suspect "no cost to the tribe" means that Abramoff won't charge a broker's fee for procuring the policies, not that he would pick up all the premiums gratis.

Life insurance premiums “for every Tigua 75 or older” would be extremely high. I could see a group policy on every Tigua. But not for those whose life expentancy is less than 5 years.

Unless you suffer from a terminal illness or something, you have to be about 90 to have a life expectancy of less than 5 years.

This sounds like a version of the so-called "dead peasant policy." I seem to recall that some companies have been known to insure their workers, or perhaps retirees, with the company as beneficiary. It's repulsive, but I'm not certain it's illegal.
It IS illegal if you then hit the insured over the head in order to collect sooner. :)

Fine. Reed's a dick.

Kevin, why can't you and the left be polite with people you disagree with for once? You, Michael Moore, and the rest of the left call people you disagree with wankers and wingnuts all the time. Why can't you simply be polite and accept that there can be honest disagreements between the left and conservatives without throwing insults?

Of course, Al doesn't deny that Ralph Reed is a dick.

It IS illegal if you then hit the insured over the head in order to collect sooner

“Bring out your dead!”
“I’m not dead yet”
“I’m feeling better”

SA: I object to your defamation of reptiles, innocent animals who share none of the distinctively human unpleasant characteristics of Ralph Reed.

For real. If Ralph Reed were an actual reptile, chances are pretty good that he wouldn't be as much of a lying, sleazy, corrupt, hypocritical scumbag.

So, yeah, I think Kevin's just being concise when he says "dick". Who else leads a "moral" crusade against legalized gambling in his home state ... which is paid for by bribe money from the gambling interests in other, competing states? I mean, really, if that doesn't qualify someone for "dick" status, what does?

Unless you suffer from a terminal illness or something, you have to be about 90 to have a life expectancy of less than 5 years.

Unless you belong to certain native american tribes in the US where the male life expectancy is closer to 55. I don't know where the Tigua tribe falls, but having driven through El Paso a few time I'm guessing it's well below the US average.

Describing Ralph Reed as "reptilian" was indeed unfair to reptiles.

And likewise, isn't describing Ralph Reed as a "dick" unfair to dicks?

Doug M.: "Once Reed wins the primary here Tuesday, then things are really going to heat up."

How so?

From my vantage point 5,000 miles away, I would think that if Ralph "Nearer to God Than Thee" Reed wins the primary, it simply means that Georgia Dixiecrat-cum-GOP voters are so emotionally vested in these political lampreys that truth and fact no longer mean anything to them.

Either that, or they're just plain stupid.

Donald from Hawaii:

Aloha! I doubt calling Georgia voters "stupid" will win many votes here -- so keep it up -- I expect the DNC to dedicate precious resources to defeating Reed in November, which is just fine with me too.

Doug (Not M.):

Doesn't bother me. After Reed wins on Tuesday, as I said, that's when the real fun begins.

SecularAnimist:

Have you read the lawsuit, or about the Judge yet? John D. Bates was appointed by REPUBLICAN Bush to the United States District Court in December 2001. He graduated from Wesleyan University in 1968 and received a J.D. from the University of Maryland School of Law in 1976. From 1968 to 1971, he served in the United States Army, including a tour in Vietnam. Judge Bates clerked for REPUBLICAN Judge Roszel C. Thomsen of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland from 1976 to 1977 and was an associate at Steptoe & Johnson from 1977 to 1980. He served as an Assistant United States Attorney IN THE REPUBLICAN REAGAN AND BUSH ADMINISTRATION, and was Chief of the Civil Division of the U.S. Attorney's Office from 1987 to 1997. Judge Bates was on detail as Deputy Independent Counsel for the Whitewater investigation from 1995 to mid-1997. In 1998, he joined the Washington law firm of Miller & Chevalier, where he was Chair of the Government Contracts/Litigation Department and a member of the Executive Committee.

In 2005, he was appointed by REPUBLICAN Chief Justice Rehnquist to serve on the U.S. Judicial Conference Committee on Court Administration and Case Management. In February 2006, he was appointed by REPUBLICAN Chief Justice Roberts to serve as a judge of the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

SecularAnimist: "Off-topic: Valerie Plame & Joe Wilson file a lawsuit against Cheney, Libby and Rove."

It's not off-topic, once you apply the laws than govern the game "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon," i.e., Ralph Reed took money from Jack Abromoff, who hired Karl Rove's former executive assistant in the White House.

Unless you belong to certain native american tribes in the US where the male life expectancy is closer to 55.

Having a lower life expectancy at birth doesn't necessarily mean a lower life expectancy at 75; while I can't find a good source for life-expectancy by race (that goes beyond "black" and "white") -- but the 2006 Statistical Abstract's table of Death Rates by Age (Table 100) seems to suggest that mortality rates for American Indian flip from higher than Whites of the same age to lower somewhere between 55-64 for men and 65-74 women.

So, Doug M., are you saying that because the judge is a Republican, there won't be a fair hearing?

More on life insurance and money laundering in the US:

http://www.fincen.gov/newsrelease10312005.pdf
http://www.fincen.gov/insurance_companies_faq.html
http://www.johnhancock.com/pdf/What_Agents_Should_Expect-ACLI-NAIFA.pdf

Doug M.: "I doubt calling Georgia voters 'stupid' will win many votes here ..."

Stupid is as stupid does. If you can still vote wide-eyed for a complete fraud like Ralph Reed, then that's your problem, not mine.

There's really no point in pandering to a bunch of ignorant neo-Confederate crackers, anyway.

Not at all, cmdicely -- I'm just gloating, that's all. After you read the complaint, please let me know if they taught you at that fancy law school yet how someone sued in their INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY (trying to get around immunity for government officials of course) can be sued for "First and Fith Amednment Violations, Civil Rights Conspiracy, and (my personal favorite) Failure to Prevent Civil Rights Violations"!

http://wilsonsupport.org/Docs/File_Stamped_Complaint.pdf

Donald:

Was Jimmy Carter an "ignorant neo-Confederate cracker"?

That's true cmdicely. I have no idea what the demographic curve looks like for the Tigua tribe. It's possible that Abramoff assumed elderly blacks and native americans were better short term investments without it actually being the case.

P.S. to Doug M.: I didn't say that all Georgia voters are stupid. I said "Georgia Dixiecrat-cum-GOP voters", i.e., ignorant Neo-Confederate crackers like you.

I'm asking if that opinion holds for U.S. Naval Academy gradute in NUCLEAR PHYSICS and former Governor of Georgia / President of the United States, James Earl Carter?

Charlie posting as "Doug M" wrote: Was Jimmy Carter an "ignorant neo-Confederate cracker"?

No, he was not, and Jimmy Carter would not vote for Ralph Reed. Jimmy Carter is a Christian. Ralph Reed is a fake, phony, money-grubbing fraud who pretends to be a Christian to bilk gullible rubes like yourself.

I'm asking if that opinion holds for U.S. Naval Academy gradute in NUCLEAR PHYSICS and former Governor of Georgia / President of the United States, James Earl Carter?

Since, last I heard, Jame Earl Carter, Jr., remained a Democrat and therefore could not, in any way, be considered a "Georgia Dixiecrat-cum-GOP voter".

The premiums would be astronomical, but an insurance company will underwrite and insure just about anything for a price. However, when the time comes to collect on the policy, the insurance companies will claim the policyholder did not have an "insurable interest" in the decedent. That way they can have their cake and eat it too.

Insurance companies don't pay those actuaries and attorneys a lot of money for nothing.....

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I don't know who Charlie is, but whether Carter would vote for Reed is not the question pending to the Gentleman from Hawaii.

SecularAnimists:

Did you see Kevin's "UPDATE 2"?

I don't know who Charlie is...

That's a dead giveaway, Charlie.

PS. Why do you think your question to Donald about Jimmy Carter means anything at all?

Silly person.

"But I categorically did not call him a terrorist. I'm not cultured and I don't even know what an Islamic terrorist is"

Of all the trolls over the past few years, Doug M. does do one of the best impressions of Charlie, the retarded Kevin Drum doppelgänger wannabe.

I'm just gloating, that's all. After you read the complaint, please let me know if they taught you at that fancy law school yet how someone sued in their INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY (trying to get around immunity for government officials of course)

That's not why you sue in "individual" rather than "official" capacity; its a matter of the redress sought. If you are looking for the court to direct the official to act or not act in a particular way in the performance of their duties, or to order some other remedy from them as an officer of the government, you sue in their official capacity; in such suits the named party is simply a placeholder for the government agency, who is the real target of the suit.

If you seek personal redress, such as damages from the individual officer, you sue in the individual capacity.

The immunities that apply are different, because in the former case it is, in an important sense, the government being sued, and in the latter, it the official is the real target.

can be sued for "First and Fith Amednment Violations, Civil Rights Conspiracy, and (my personal favorite) Failure to Prevent Civil Rights Violations"!

Very easily; persons acting outside the scope of their employment as government officials or in violation of constitutional standards are not immune to suit on these grounds, in their individual capacity.

Now, if you were making a specific arguments that the fact alleged in this case didn't meet the requirements of those rules, that would be one thing. But simply pretending that the government officials as a ironclad rule can't be sued in their individual capacity for bare Constitutional wrongs (under Bivens) or statutory wrongs which refer back to Constitutional violations, well, that's just weird.

asdf:

Well, we can't have that! I will redouble my efforts to at least graduate from wannabe to FULL-FLEDGED Kevin Drum doppelgänger.

obscure:

A "dead-giveaway" of what?! That I deny being Charlie? Since Donald used the word "or" above, I simply wanted to know where he drew the line of "stupid".

Thanks for the info, cmdicely.

I don't know who Charlie is, but whether Carter would vote for Reed is not the question pending to the Gentleman from Hawaii.

"Charlie" is a well-known troll that has taken to name-shifting, who any poster here as long as you have been (only counting time under the name "Doug M.") would have heard of, and who posts with an extraordinarily distinct style (which, amazingly, happens to exactly match yours), which includes, when being called on having come up with yet another identity, consistently professing not to know who Charlie is.

IOW, Charlie is you.

Didn't Nazis take out insurance policies on Jews? I thought I heard something to that effect.

Well, you've got a couple of aspects wrong. In fact, the correct story is that Bush is the worst President ever in the history of the US, he is pushing us into has-been status at a rate of knots, and the Republicans in general have lost all faith in actual Democracy, preferring instead to implement a stealth theocracy while shouting "look out behind you!" and "traitor!" whenever anyone mentions their evil treachery.

That's actually what happened. See, it's all in the details.

I agree with Craigie

For instance:

The deficit
... last [year] when it was $319 billion for the full year. That was third-highest deficit in dollar terms; the record deficit was $413 billion set in 2004.

Trade
..This year the trade deficit is running at an annual rate of $763 billion, 6.5 percent higher than last year's record of $716.7 billion.

The Economy
After treading water for the first half of the year, the Deloitte Research Leading Index of Consumer Spending is turning down again, projecting a more difficult retail environment, due to high energy costs, continued softness in the housing market, and a weaker job market.

It IS the details

The deficit
... last [year] when it was $319 billion for the full year. That was third-highest deficit in dollar terms; the record deficit was $413 billion set in 2004.

Ha ha ha ha ha! Let's apply your deficit-comparison methodology to, oh, say, incomes, shall we?

In 1980, male median income was $12,530. In 2004, it was $30,513. Male median income is now two-and-a-half-times as high as it was in 1980.

Thanks for pointing that out G-O-Pee.

But I know you,
if a Dem President ran up the highest dollar deficit
of all time, then did it again & again

You'd be screaming your fucking head off.
Dope.

The Economy
After treading water for the first half of the year, the Deloitte Research Leading Index of Consumer Spending is turning down again, projecting a more difficult retail environment, due to high energy costs, continued softness in the housing market, and a weaker job market.

More hilarity. Since when does "the economy" mean "consumer spending?" For the most recent quarter, U.S. GDP grew by a whopping 5.6%. For the year, the Economist's poll forecasts U.S. GDP to grow by 3.7%. This is a 50% higher rate of growth than the forecast for the Euro area nations (a miserable 2.2%), and is higher than the forecast for any European nation except Sweden, higher than Canada, higher than Australia, and higher than Japan. The U.S. unemployment rate, at 4.6%, is lower than that of almost all European nations, including all the large ones. Britain is at 5.4%, Italy is at 7.7%, France is at 9.1%, and Germany is at a whopping 10.1%, over twice as high as the U.S.

higher than the forecast for any European nation except Sweden,

What!? Goddamn socialists are doing better 'n us?!

This cannot stand. Let's invade Greenland.

Thanks for pointing that out G-O-Pee

You're welcome, Pierre Ass-wipe.

But I know you,

I know you. One of the basic principles of the Pierre Ass-wipe School of Economic Lies is that inflation only matters when you're comparing incomes, and not when you're comparing deficits, except in cases where the latter comparison would be unfavorable to Democrats, in which case inflation somehow matters again.

Since when does "the economy" mean "consumer spending?"

Well, those liberals at The Economist think it does. For the link impaired, the money quote:

"When house-price rises flatten off, and therefore the room for further equity withdrawal dries up, consumer spending will stumble. Given that consumer spending and residential construction have accounted for 90% of GDP growth in recent years, it is hard to see how this can occur without a sharp slowdown in the economy."

What!? Goddamn socialists are doing better 'n us?!

Only for the year. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Sweden is kind of sad, really. In just a couple of decades, it's gone from having one of the highest standards of living in Western Europe to one of the lowest.

This cannot stand. Let's invade Greenland.

Yes, please do. There's a piece of frozen tundra there with your name on it.

It's Gogol's DEAD SOULS come to life. So Abramoff is Tchitchikov and Reed is... Reed is a dick. Nostrovya.

There's a piece of frozen tundra there with your name on it.

Won't be frozen forever... I've got some prime real estate, right next door to where W will be exiled after his trial. I want to stand next door and shout bad words at him. God, life will be sweet.

craigie,

Well, those liberals at The Economist think it does.

Er, no they don't.

For the link impaired, the money quote

For the knowledge impaired, "the economy" doesn't mean "GDP growth" (still less "90% of GDP growth, less residential construction") either. GDP growth is one indicator of the state of "the economy." Others include the unemployment rate, the inflation rate, and the industrial production rate. But maybe you missed the GDP growth figures I provided. U.S. GDP is up a whopping 5.6% for the last quarter. Where was the slowdown?

G-O-Pee
You are feisty this evening.
You must've had a nice nap this afternoon.

But I'm hurt
I thought I found a quote about the economy that touched on several aspects:
consumer spending, difficult retail environment, high energy costs, soft housing market, weaker job market.
And you attacked me viciously.
Next thing you'll be accusing me of having my own dictionary, like cmdicely

sam: "我向大家推荐:北 ... 品及武夷山服务."

I couldn't have said it any better.

G-O-Pee

Yes, Pierre Ass-wipe?

But I'm hurt I thought I found a quote ...

Quote from where? Where's your source?

... about the economy that touched on several aspects: consumer spending, difficult retail environment, high energy costs, soft housing market, weaker job market.

Well, it might have "touched on" any number of things. The point is that consumer spending alone is not a meaningful measure of the state of the economy, and that the leading economic indicators all show that the U.S. economy is doing well, especially in comparison to its major competitors.

And you attacked me viciously.

Oh, you poor thing.

I enjoy a strong wiff of my own farts before posting my words of wisdom here. Keeps my head clear.

Doug M. (Charlie?): "... whether Carter would vote for Reed is not the question pending to the Gentleman from Hawaii."

I've been called many things, but usually "Gentleman" is not one of them.

Of course Pres. Carter is not an ignorant neo-Confederate cracker. He's probably the most moral person to ever occupy the White House, or the Georgia governor's mansion -- which is more than I can say for the current occupants of either locale.

And just wait for our economy to really boom when oil prices hit records highs!

That's boom as in implode.

it's a variation on COLI - corporate owned life insurance. usually used to finance exec benefits via the cash values and death benefits. also known as janitor insurance - see walmart. and BOLI - bank owned life insurance. you know those offers for a free $1,000 in life insurance from your bank? the policy they take out on you is much higher than that - the give your beneficiary the grand and keep the rest. in any event, this is pretty common in the business world. and, the group of insureds is usually large enough that the insurance companies make a profit on the total group.

"The point is that consumer spending alone is not a meaningful measure of the state of the economy"

No one but you said, or implied, it was.

However, the majority seemed to indicate that the point point is
at the top of your head.

Oh, that is old.
But I couldn't stop myself.

Thanks for the clarification, Donald. Aloha!

You are so, so Charlie. Of course, maybe it's only you that doesn't know this - some novel kind of dementia, perhaps.

This could be the "perfect storm" for Kevin, bringing together Plame-gate AND Rather-gate (they say these type of lawsuits are filed in 3's . . .):

Dan Rather mulling CBS lawsuit

Former CBS News anchor Dan Rather says he has considered filing a lawsuit against the network where he had worked for 44 years.

Appearing Wednesday night on CNN's "Larry King Live," Rather paused after a question from King and then said he wouldn't talk about whether he would file a lawsuit against CBS. But he acknowledged, "I can't say that I've never thought about it."

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/reuters/0,24012,1213712_10_0_,00.html

Anyway,
So what if consumer spending is not the same as the economy. I don't care.
And inflation does matter to deficits. I just forgot to adjust for it. So sue me.

Well, I guess that last post is a clear an admission of your stupidity as we're likely to see.

There's the THIRD lawsuit -- I told you these things are filed in 3's!

G-o-Pee

You are the smrtest!

That trick you just pulled on the frenchy is the bestest one yet.

no one will guess.

Shhhhhhh.

Somebody never read Gogol's Dead Souls. Otherwise, the answer would have been obvious.

The insurance here is Strager owned Life Insurance or Investor owned Life Insurance. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05146/510869.stm
It is frowned upon by the insurance industry which has asked congress to tax it out of existence, much to the anguish of the investment companies that are participating in these plans. http://www.insurancenewsnet.com/article.asp?a=top_news&lnid=389186575
Think congress did away with this scheme? Think again.

While everyone’s been watching the mud fly in the Republican lieutenant governor’s race, what had seemed a relatively civil Democratic lieutenant governor’s race has erupted this week into a pretty nasty affair with two mail pieces from Greg Hecht’s campaign that are right up there with the other team in terms of negativity.

Over a photo of a wan-looking girl on the first piece, a blotter-type headline says “72 children died when Jim Martin was the head of Georgia’s DFCS… why should we trust Jim to be protecting our kids now?”

Billy Horton, Hecht’s campaign manager, acknowledged the piece was “a more visible escalation,” but said the race already was becoming more negative, and in any case, the piece was “tame” compared to what Martin might expect from either of the Republicans.

“It’s just been his chipping away at us for the last three, four, five weeks, and saying one thing after another, that brought us to the point where we felt like we had to respond,” Horton said.

He cited what he said was Martin’s misrepresentation of one of Hecht’s Senate votes on a SPLOST issue, and his “outright, blatant misrepresentation” of Hecht’s record on abortion issues.

“If that’s what they’re calling an attack, judge that in comparison to this mail piece,” said Will Martin, Jim Martin’s communications director. “Jim’s position is that every child’s life is precious. For Greg’s campaign to attempt to score points over their deaths is outrageous.”

The timing is critical here. The DFCS piece was mailed at the beginning of the week, timed to drop in mailboxes less than a week before the primary. But Horton didn’t mention, and Martin didn’t know about until late Thursday afternoon, a second piece that went out Wednesday – the last day the post office guarantees a political mailer will be delivered before next Tuesday.

It screams even louder.

“2000 women are raped in Georgia every year. Jim Martin said some of these women ‘should have known better’,” a headline says, over a color negative of a frightened woman with a hand over her mouth. Quoting Martin from an AJC story, it says “She was in a bar, should have known better, wore a short skirt.”

This has to do with a 1994 bill sponsored by Martin when he was in the House which failed to win passage. It would have created different categories for the crime of rape, and was favored by many prosecutors and rape counseling groups.

As for the quote, we’ll give you the full version from the AJC and let you judge for yourself. Martin is talking about how the Georgia law made it hard to prosecute rape cases:

“If there are any factors – such as, she was in a bar, should have known better, wore a short dress – some juries are unwilling to prosecute the crime as rape. The hope is we will get more convictions.”

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/

Why didn't Abramoff just get the Indians to sell him their scalps? I understand the Federal government has a standing of one gold dollar each.

Or maybe they could have sent him the bones of their ancient elders, so he could gnaw on them.

The comments on the cost of insuring the older Tigua miss a big part of the point.

First, the insurance company likely wouldn't be taking a huge part of the premium in profit, and the would pay the claim. Abramoff may be many things, but an idiot his is not. the kind of policy he'd buy is geared around the tax break and borrowing money against it to avoid liquidity problems. The insurance companies slice of the proceeds would be low, since they're really only serving as a laundry service. This is an engineered product, not real life insurance.

Second, as this is engineered as a tax break and not real life insurance, high mortality rates are a bonus, not a drawback. The older an insured is, the more predictable is his or her death, and the sooner the tax breaks start rolling in.

Quick example to back up prior post:

Abramoff is standing next to the hospital bed of a Tigua with terminal cancer who is just about to flat-line. He says to his life insurance friend "I'll pay you $100,000 for a policy on him, with a death benefit of $99,000." It's a quick $1,000 of pure profit for the Life Insurer, and a quick transformation of $100,000 in taxable income in $99,000 in taxable exempt life insurance death benefits.

Smooth.

Fantastically cynical and immoral, of course. But smooth.

Now, if you were making a specific arguments that the fact alleged in this case didn't meet the requirements of those rules, that would be one thing. But simply pretending that the government officials as a ironclad rule can't be sued in their individual capacity for bare Constitutional wrongs (under Bivens) or statutory wrongs which refer back to Constitutional violations, well, that's just weird.

Especially considering that Republicans were saying the exact opposite thing about President Clinton in the 1990s.

Don P posting as "GOP" wrote: ... the leading economic indicators all show that the U.S. economy is doing well

The leading economic indicators all show that the US economy is doing well at enriching the ultra-rich, while everyone else is getting screwed, with their incomes stagnant or falling in real terms, and indebtedness and financial insecurity skyrocketing.

But since fawning, slavish, bootlicking neo-fascist brownshirt Republican idolators of the ultra-wealthy only care about enriching the rich, that's your idea of a "good economy".

GOP: In 1980, male median income was $12,530. In 2004, it was $30,513. Male median income is now two-and-a-half-times as high as it was in 1980.

This reminds me of an old joke. Two guys are in a bar - one of them makes $40k, and the other makes $120k. The $120k guy is celebrating because he just got a $20k raise, but the $40k guy is depressed. "What's the matter?", asks the $120k. "You should be happy! Our mean income just went up by $10k!"

And if you don't understand this joke, you're probably every bit as mathematically illiterate as GOP and the rest of the conservative Bush-groupie goons.

An analogy about Ralph Reed's activities courtesy the Star Telegram.com:

If a preacher secretly accepts a bucket of money from a saloonkeeper to organize a temperance rally at a rival saloon and maybe send in a gang of church ladies to chop up the bar with their little hatchets, this would strike you and me as sleazy, but others are willing to make allowances, and so Ralph Reed's political career is still alive and breathing in Georgia. He has bathed himself in tomato juice and hopes to smile his way through the storm.

Rather than giving money to widows Ralph is mulling schemes with convicted felon Jack Abramoff on how to profit from their misfortune.

How very Christian of him.

Are you accusing Abramoff of being a Christian?

Of course Pres. Carter is not an ignorant neo-Confederate cracker. He's probably the most moral person to ever occupy the White House, or the Georgia governor's mansion -- which is more than I can say for the current occupants of either locale.

Not only moral but truly faithful to the Christian values he professes, unlike Reed. Carter visits the poor in other countries and develops programs to improve the quality of their lives.

Reed, on the other hand, employs deceptive ponzi schemes to make more money for monied interests who themselves take from the poor.

The contrast between the two individuals could not be sharper.

Reed helps the poor -- he simply does not make a big show of it -- Carter has his reward already.

"Take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing . . ."

Matthew 6:1-3

When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others.

How exactly is participating in a charity fundraiser (in a synagogue, no less) as part of political campaign seeking elective office not doing that as much (or more) than anything Carter does?

I mean, all it misses is literal trumpet blowing; the attempt to use charity, or at least association with those who are actually being charitable, to win the praise of others is to clear to miss.

Sure, sure, all politicians do it, but that's what makes it ludicrous to pretend that Reed has some kind of special virtue in this respect.

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid... Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:13-16

"I want to be invisible. I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag."

Ralph Reed, November 9, 1991

DH Walker,

And if you don't understand this joke,

You have obviously completely misunderstood the point of the post of mine you refer to, even though I made it rather clear. But never mind. I wouldn't really have expected anything more of you.