I've been thinking a lot about Bush's talking up of diplomacy. I no longer take anything at face value with these people. And since an air strike against N. Korea or Iran could be spun to help out the GOP in November, I'm wondering if his sudden love of diplomacy isn't a Rove scheme to get people to think the president is for diplomacy but was forced to "do it".

Regardless, this seems to now be the White House Fox News talking point.

It's a long way from the triumphalism of a few months ago.

Obviously "Freedom's on the March" has been consigned to the memory hole, along with the retreat of radical Islam.

Now we're back too "They're evil and powerful and we are in danger".

It's all making me dizzy.

But Baer and Ignatius don't strike me as mouthpieces for either PNAC or the White House.

I think the fact that both Baer and Ignatius are liberal democracts means we should trust they are right about Iran and Syria being behind the current war against Israel. I hope that other liberal Democrats agree also rather than engage in partisan bickering. The American government need to unite behind a preemptive military attack of Syria and Iran so that the terrorist infrastructure of these two countries are destroyed before the war spreads.

let's get real here
Israel imposed a lockout of Hamas and then reinvaded Gaza. Hezbollah sees this an excellent chance to acquire even more stroke with the street by tweaking the Israeli army on its northern border.
Why the Israeli army took such heavy casulties is hard to fathom given that no new weapon systems appear to have been used. I'm sure that Hezbollah was stunned by its "success".

No matter what the exact story is it seems clear to me that all those involved have lost their mind

Electorial politics is, I`m sure, just a small part of what is going on

Scary for all of us here onboard Gaia

"A country which proposes to make use of modern war as an instrument of policy must possess a highly centralized, all-powerful executive, hence the absurdity of talking about the defense of democracy by force of arms. A democracy which makes or effectively prepares for modern scientific war must necessarily cease to be democratic." - Aldous Huxley

And warning shots across the bow can easily translate into Republican votes.

Two words: War Porn. The Press is at it again. This is their entertainment. Would Mrs. Ignatius please get this guy laid and save everyone the trouble?

All I can say is, thank god we invaded Iraq so the burgeoning democracy there can serve as a model for the rest of the area.

(because I know it often travels poorly by post - that was sarcasm)

Hi Kevin,

The source for the Iran/Syria stuff seems to be Walid Jumblat, leader of the main Druze faction and friend of Israel - although he used to be a friend of Syria...

In fact, Jumblatt is the man I described as "The next Chalabi" last February. Ignatius was singing Jumblat's praises - to the delight of the Militant Right - even back then.

Regards, Cernig @ Newshog

A child doesn't take a crap in Gaza without first getting permission from the Mullahs. If the Mullahs ask the child will hold it for days until he vomits or poop on command and fling it at Israeli patrols. Messages are sent back and forth in code from Gaza by carrier pigeons so fast Israel has never seen one, let alone intercepted one. The greatest technology in the world will not help Israel observe the communications.

It's high time for Israel to punish the mullahs for orchestrating poop throwers, rock throwers, tunnel diggers, knife wielders, and rocket builders. The Intifada is a highly structured organization following plans written in Farsi by Arafat and the Mullahs. Cut it off at the head and the individual elements will flail around aimlessly. Palestinians will likely start hating Simon Cowell and throwing rocks at the ocean.

And while Israel is at it they should blow up the nuclear facilities too.

I've heard -- somewhere, can't remember where (it's no fun getting old) -- that the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers (which, ostensibly, started the Israel's incursion into Lebanon) were on Lebanon's territory when they were snatched.

If that is, indeed, true, then the whole "Iran angle" is, probably, just a smoke screen to keep us from asking "WTF were they doing there, and with whose blessing?"

If, OTOH, it's a blatant lie (always a possibility, given the general "climate" ), then I'd like to have some more direct (other than "pundits", that is) sources. For both sides/rumours, actually.

AH,

Did you eat some moldy bread?

Well, Kevin, *I* clearly know what to believe.

"Taking out" Syria and/or Iran would only be playing directly into the hands of the jihadists and bad state actors.

Invading Iraq and being unable to secure it served as an inspiration to our foes in the region, who thrive on the chaos of war.

More war = more chaos = more opportunities for our enemies.

Bob

"I've heard -- somewhere, can't remember where (it's no fun getting old)"

Thanks for the smile. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Kenny Baer sure has been bit bad by the 1% doctrine.
The kidnapping of an Israeli soldier is "alarming"??
WTF? each side wants to kill as many of the other as possible. This does, however, point up the futility of attempting to "scare/harass/coerce/blockade" the other side into giving in. If you have nothing, you have nothing to give up or to loose.

OK! I'm going to say that there might be a elephant in the room(With my real name and E-mail)!I know that no one should do this but Fuck It! Are Kenny Baer and/or David Ignatius Jewish?........Let the hate mail and comments commence(I would advise you not to come to my house)

So all of this started over the kidnapping of one Israeli soldier, albeit in a rather unusual way. I know I'm not going to trust the media on this one. (I didn't on the first one either. I'm back to angrily clicking off talking heads and other so-called media people.) Ignatius says that although Iran and Syria supply Hezbollah with arms and money, no one really knows how much 'control' they have over the group. This feels like a set-up for an attack on Iran to me.

This does, however, point up the futility of attempting to "scare/harass/coerce/blockade" the other side into giving in...

Shock and Awe, baby.

Scare the other side into backing down.

Of course, it never works - just look at the 911 attacks.

And yet, somehow it is supposed to work on the 'Them' that 'We" are fighting.

R.L.:

That was an unnecessary and counterproductive comment.

Bob

It's getting past the "Who started it?" point very quickly. Maybe Syria leaves Lebanon to their own devices. If they don't, well I know where I can find about 130,000 American troops (as of now, more to come) close by. Every nation involved might already be on automatic at this point.

their elaborate kidnapping plots were in the works for months, which the Israelis claim dates to a summit between Assad and Ahmadinejad in Damascus in January.

Larry Kudlow told me that Hugo Chavez was at that meeting as well; Castro was too sick to travel, so he sent his brother in his place.

I have a colleague with family in Beirut, which is now cut off by land, sea, and air. NPR is talking about Israeli attacks on "Hezbollah positions in the southern suburbs" -- that's a densely populated area, and innocent civilians are dying.

I have another colleague who often visits an important customer in Haifa; he was actually talking about another trip today when I told him that Haifa had been hit by a rocket. Lebanon cannot afford for this to go on, nor can Israel, nor can we. It's time to de-escalate in a hurry. This macho crap has to stop.

There's no question that Iran is in the catbird's seat here.

Gee, I wonder who put them there?

We preach democracy in the region while invading a major country. The surrounding countries -- feeling threatened by the invasion to be sure -- have elections and empower militant, hardcore anti-Israeli candidates and parties.

What other result could anyone have possibly expected?

Bob

rmck1......I know and I know the answer to my question! It's just that this is never talked about and is a taboo subject! Witness the Neocons!

Dwight, excellent comment...

R.L.:

Witness Russ Feingold.

Kindly drop the subject.

It's an extremely distateful form of pure argument ad hominem.

Witness Peace Now. Witness the Israeli paper Haaertz.

Not every Jewish person is a god-blessed Likudnik.

Quite often the reverse.

Now please -- let it go.

Bob

distateful = distasteful

What gets me is realizing that there is a sizable contingent in this country that welcomes the prospect of massive bloodshed and warfare, as a sign of the "end times". These people have every inclination to support this new war's continuation and exacerbation, to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of armageddon.

Not that I personally think it will actually get that far (damn well better not - I just finished putting in a garden this year, and the zucchini isn't ready yet), but it's bad enough just knowing that it's going to get a helluva lot worse before it gets better, thanks to our dipshit president and his numerous enablers.

and funny!!!

Irony Man:

Word

Bob

Wow, I actually agree with American Hawk. Yes, Israel should take out Iran's nuclear facilities, because Bush sure ain't gonna do it. As we all know, Bush doesn't actually give a damn about WMDs in the hands of terrorists. Trust me, folks - Bush isn't gonna lift a finger to truly protect the American people.

And look how wonderfully Bush's Iraq experiment has gone - Iraq's shining example of democracy is going to bring stability in the region, right? We've got Iran on the brink of a bomb and not giving a crap about what the world thinks, both Iran and Syria are stronger than ever, allied against Israel, and our ever steadfast ally on the war against Al Quaeda, Pakistan, is linking the Kashmir dispute with the deadly attack on the trains in Mumbai. Bravo.

for floopmeister, right on

only those who have no balls could imagine that shock and awe would be effective --"scares me so it'll scare them"

As much as I'm sure your zuchinni will be excellent, in three weeks I'll be a parent for the first time. I'm watching the news and thinking the same thing.

The only thing we can be is optimistic - realistically so.

As much as people want Armageddon to arrive, I can't help thinking that history is circular in motion. People are desperate to reach the End, the Justification of it all - yet events just keep slipping out of their hands.

Whatever happens, there'll be another morning after 'Armageddon'.

And that's what most frightens the fundamentalist mindset.

Andy:

Israel shouldn't lay a finger on Iran.

To think otherwise is to engage in warmongering pure and simple, and lays waste to your otherwise laudable anti-Bush, anti-Iraq invasion sentiments.

It is neither possible nor moral nor justified by the circumstances.

Iran hasn't even withdrawn from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Nobody knows for sure whether Iran is even aiming to build nukes. Certainly enriching uranium is congruent with a goal of an indigenous nuclear power industry.

Bob

congratulations -- I hope that all goes well. The seasons keep changing but your first born is one of life's great markers.
What really frightens the fundamentalist is that he may not be as important as he thinks he is.

As much as people want Armageddon to arrive

Any endtimers are welcome to come to my neighborhood. Two guys were killed a block away tonight. And a 16-year-old girl was killed in the alley behind my house two days ago. Is Armageddon Aramaic for Summer?

Let me add my congratulations, floop.

I dunno if it's arrogance ... or emptiness ... that drives people to take part in some Grand Historical Telos instead of valuing the life they've been given for what it is.

We do know that one great system of world organization collapsed -- Soviet Communism -- because its telic vision of history was unsustainable.

Religious flavors won't give up the ghost quite so easily, I'm afraid ...

Bob

enozinho:

Do you live in California?

Bob

Bob:

Yeah, West L.A.

Cf. Billmon's comments on this. Of course blaming it all on Iran & Syria distracts from Israel's racist colonial settler society, doesn't it? Did Iran & Syria force Israel to ethnically cleanse c. 500,000 Palestinains in 1948, or invade Lebanon (and carry out horrific atrocites) in both 1979 and 1981?

Thanks floop, for the vote of confidence in our zucchini. (I confess that I shouldn't claim it as mine, as my wife has put in more work on it than I have, but I nevertheless like to bask in her glory.)

And congrats to you too for your upcoming parenthood. This world needs all the good people we can muster. And good zucchini too.

Remember the scene from "Brazil"? The one where Tuttle plugs the enviro suits of the Central Services workers into the sewage.
Does that remind you of anything?

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I have a colleague with family in Beirut, which is now cut off by land, sea, and air. NPR is talking about Israeli attacks on "Hezbollah positions in the southern suburbs" -- that's a densely populated area, and innocent civilians are dying.

I have another colleague who often visits an important customer in Haifa; he was actually talking about another trip today when I told him that Haifa had been hit by a rocket. Lebanon cannot afford for this to go on, nor can Israel, nor can we. It's time to de-escalate in a hurry. This macho crap has to stop.

Thanks for the thoughts, all. My partner just finished work tonight and started her maternity leave - I think a glass of champagne with dinner is in order.

Bob, I also think the fundamentalist mindset is all about resisting/rejecting uncertainty, in whatever form it arrives. Uncertainty scares them.

With that in mind, how do they deal with the uncertainty of having kids? No, don't answer that.... I grew up with Seventh Day Adventist parents...

Here's to uncertainty, then.

Mister Order he runs at a very good pace,
But Old Mother Chaos is winning the race...

BTW, Irony Man - all the good zucchini we can muster?

Wow - I just had an image of hardbitten vegetables saddling up and moving out across the prairie...

;)

Syria and Iran are the red headed stephchild for many a neocon and "national security" dem article

jr:

GWORHSC

Global War on Redheaded Stepchildren

Has a kinda ring to it, don't it :)

Bob

You know what really gets me about all of this? Whenever Palestinian militants targeted civilians for their attacks they were accused of barbarism because they were attacking helpless and innocent civilians instead of Israeli military personnel. However, when they attack or in this case take prisoner (or kidnapped and becomes a hostage, after all in practical terms it amounts to the same thing, the only difference between the two is depending on which side of the argument you are on) one soldier Israel retaliates with significant collateral damage, then two more are captured and a few more killed in the process of that capture and we see what we have now. Yet whenever Israel bombs suspected militants it is acceptable, they can target them for assassination without issue, and they can take prisoner/kidnap militants and as of late elected officials and this is not an issue. Yet when these events occur and the obvious retaliation comes from the Palestinian side of things then it is further proof of their barbarity and determination to obliterate Israel. Which when you consider the massive lopsidedness of military/force capabilities between the two sides is absolute insanity it is so disconnected from reality as a possibility. Whatever their intent the blunt reality is that Israel has top of the line American military weaponry, training, intelligence assets and even a massive nuclear arsenal despite their never signing the NPT and having developed that nuclear capability illegally.

So now we are at this point and instead of considering the notion that what has happened is a result of the increasing tensions started with the murder of the beachgoers by an Israeli shell several weeks ago is now somehow a master plan drawn up, ordered and executed by Syria and Iran. While I am well aware of the history of Iran and Syria financing these groups throughout the 80s and 90s I also remember that their operational controls over these groups is limited and has been deteriorating over the past several years and not as some would have us believe growing stronger. There is also the blunt reality that the whole world outside of America itself is well aware of how toothless a ground military force the American military is these days. Therefore there is little threat of an occupation following a decapitation of a regime threat posed thanks to the Iraq invasion drawing off the human, financial and military assets needed to be able to do such a thing, not to mention the international credibility/moral authority/trust.

Then one needs to take into consideration the intense attempts to expand the so called global war on terrorism to Syria and Iran ever since Iraq was targeted and "won" in May 2003 by many American Hawks, most of the neocon variety but not totally. There has been a great deal of effort made over the last few years to lay the groundwork for such in no small part by citing the Iranian/Syrian connections to the terrorist groups attacking Israel over the last few decades. For that matter, doesn't anyone else remember that one of the rationales initially for invading Iraq was that by doing so it would help solve the Israeli/Palestinian issue? As in the road to peace in the Middle East is through Baghdad? Well we have seen just how well that worked out in practice. Instead of increasing the chances for peace it had the exact opposite effect by both destabilizing further an unstable region and by also gutting the perception *AND* the reality of American military power to do such things unilaterally, and given the current global climate even within other democracies of distrust and disbelief of America's foreign policies and claims of threats thanks to the Iraq debacle diplomatically along with every other aspect the chances of any serious coalition needed by America forming to do these things now is next to nil.

Finally, I would add one additional point which tends to be overlooked when this issue of Israel and the Palestinians is concerned. Whenever we hear Israel claim they are attacking only militants and are not causing that much collateral damage we have no independent verification. Israel for many years has done its level best to prevent independent reporting from within the Occupied Territories. Since when is it acceptable to trust the claims of any occupying power in these circumstances with such claims without verification, especially when that power goes out of its way to prevent such from being possible in the first place???

One of the main things that caused my opinion of this issue to turn negative against Israel occurred in the 90s when I started seeing this pervasive refusal to allow independent observers to act as a buffer/peacekeeping force or even simply to provide a non-involved source of information about what is really happening on both sides via journalists and NGOs that are not affiliated/sympathetic to either side of this dispute. When a democracy hides things to that degree it is rarely, if ever, out of innocent motivations. When that democracy wants all to recognize its rights and needs to act in this manner yet blocks all means of independent verification of things like civilian collateral deaths from their military actions, whether their intelligence on militants targeted and assassinated was actually strong, whether there is collective punishment occurring on a regular basis (i.e. destroying homes of family members of militants, even those that have disowned said militants) and so on then one must not take what said democracy is saying at face value.

Not because of some racist attitude but because the actions themselves make it impossible to find out anything except one side, and in this case the side occupying the lands and with all the military and financial might in its corner. This is why I now distrust what Israel claims when it comes to their actions,, it is not because I think Jews are some sort of lesser beings or some other such idiocy but because the Israeli government is controlling the information and the ability to discover details on the ground that would either confirm or refute their claims. Given they clearly have motive to spin things to their best advantage like anyone else in a similar situation regardless of nationality it is simply reasonable critical thought to be doing so.

Therefore since too much of the American media takes what the Israeli government claims at face value instead of independently investigating their claims and reporting any discrepancies/differences the environment is well tilled for those that see Israel as a de facto extension of America and therefore deserving of the same degree of protections as America itself by the American government. This will include Israel's enemies and the threat posed by them being seen in that same light as well, and given that Iran in particular has been going out of its way to use harsh and genocidal rhetoric about Israel when combined with the historical connections between Hamas/Hezbollah and Iran it becomes easy to fall into the belief that Iran in particular and Syria (thanks to the Lebanon aspect of this matter) as well are the real movers in this and not local factions on the ground outside the control of the governments involved. So I would say a skeptical eye needs to be maintained here, especially since this would work to the political advantage of the GOP for the midterms since they want to campaign on national security instead of their corruption, rubber stamping Bushco in the Congress to the point of allowing seriously questionable practices both legal and apparently according to Hamdan illegal as well as spending taxpayer dollars like it was going out of style and racking up massive debt and deficits for the future to have to pay for, which will be painful for most Americans in services cut and/or tax increases.. This is a very dangerous situation as it is and expanding it by attacking Syria and/or Iran, by Israel and/or America has the potential to make the current instability of that region look like it was actually sitting on bedrock.

These are very dangerous times and the need now is for reasoned rational thought and not more and more heated rhetoric and aspersions casting. If America/Israel believes Iran/Syria are directly involved they need to do more than claim it they need to be showing it, both publicly as much as possible and privately to other allied governments and then have them come out and say they have been convinced. Right now the way things have been handled is only making matters worse and more explosive IMHO and given the potential for things to escalate in that region to potentially engulf the rest of the planet this cannot be overreacted to nor moving so quickly as to back oneself into a corner from which there is no other option left (be it only politically to save face or because all other options were already dismissed and now cannot be offered because of that dismissal). To date Bushco is making things worse, not better, period. I only hope things do not blow up into a regional war, the Gods and Goddesses of all the Faiths on this planet only know if even them where that would leave the world at the end of it. Somehow though I doubt it would be a terribly good/healthy/stable place.

floopmeister:

Congradulations to you and your partner on your incipient parenthood. May you enjoy the next 20 years raising and teaching your child your excellent beliefs and good sense. May you and yours prosper and may the world around us all allow for your child to live in a world where life is more than cowering in fear of the next great war/disaster threatening the world. Good luck and be well, both you and your partner.

Where is the proof? Everyone everywhere, including the right-wing nut jobs, is saying "Iran is behind this."

Speculation, wishful thinking, perhaps. But I'd like some real proof before we start taking actual sides in this thing.

Could anyone imagine a more complete clusterfuck than this?

Iraq turning into ethnic cleansing, neighborhood by neightborhood, lining guys up and shooting them if their name is Ali (Shiite) or Omar (Sunni), just when the Israelis and Palestinians are playing their version of the World Cup, taking or not taking prisoners, bombing power plants or launching overgrown dangerous fireworks (Gaza) and escalating by taking more prisoners, bombing bridges and airports.

Let's hear it for bringing democracy to the middle east. You're doing a heckuva job, Georgie.

You want proof? I sent the document forgery section home for a vacation. Folks are usually willing to believe the worst about Hamas and Hezbollah without asking.

I'll level with you. This action is simply meant to alienate Hezbollah within the Lebanese government. Throw in a little black ops (the Haifa missiles, the Rafiq Hariri assasination, various pieces of evidence pointing back to Syria) and the chips fall in our favor. It all weakens Hezbollah and Syria and helps out our friends in the Lebanese government. And while you're studying this reality, judiciously, as you will . . . Hezbollah and Syria will somehow manage to trip up again. Remarkable. This time next year our chosen man, Saad Hariri, might even be President. Any effects on Syria and Iran are largely frosting on the cake.

As for Gaza, the Palestinians are ungovernable and we'll do our best to keep it so for the forseeable future. The current crop of politicians can be assassinated, sidelined, arrested, tied to foreign governments at will. It's quite fun. The media will believe anything of the dreaded Hamas politicians.

Kevin, if you belive this then you are still as gullible as when you supported the Iraq war. Haven't you learnt anything in the last couple of years ?

Israel runs out solutions and goes nuts. Washington is trying everything it can to go to war with Iran. Israel says, well if it gets you on our side, we'll blame Iran. A bunch of clueless beltway pundits agree with them to sound like they have some sort of understaning of the situation. And you believe them ?

Israel's got a motive to blame Iran. The US has too. They both lie all the time and you still take them at face value ? Wake up

Ignatius = Jew.

Thats why he is spouting the BS big time.

Quite sadly, al Qaeda may have succeeded in its desperation tactic of doing absolutely anything to undermine the new Iraqi government by inciting a Sunni vs Shia civil war. It is rather too bad that al Qaeda has been aided and abetted, not to mention given aid and comfort, by the likes of The New York Times and many of the bloggers here, but it is obvious that among some factions hatred of George Bush overpowers any vestige of patriotis or even hope of national (maybe personal!) survival.

We Christian right people are going to continue supporting Israel, because it is a rare democracy in the Middle East and we won't even give up on Iraq just yet because it was one of the boldest and best-intentioned acts of intervention that any nation has ever done. Not only that, but when WMD's do turn up in a nasty way being used against the West (any day now) all the lefties are goint to be outed as the idiots they are.

Saddam lied rather convincingly about whether he had WMD's or not. Iran is not lying. THAT TRUMPS ANYTHING BITTER THING YOU CAN SAY ABOUT GEORGE BUSH.

So, what is the great Bush-hating party going to do about Iran, other than express how much they hate Israel? Are you going to be like the protestors I passed outside the Caterpillar dealership last week, who are still carrying on about the Israeli bulldozer running over the young American lady who was more eager to die for the Palestinians than the U.S.A.?

I have predicted that George Bush would not react in a "cowboy" way against Iran. He will save that for after the next 9/11. So will President McCain, whom it is increasingly clear is going to pick up Bush's burden in Iraq and carry it on to an honorable conclusion.

For that matter, if Hillary somehow beats McCain (about the same chance we have of seeing Barbaro win another horse race) she will carry the Iraq forward at least until another 9/11 and then she will attack Iran. Bet your bippy on that one. The good thing about Hillary is that the U.S.A. will be able to go back to Clinton rules of warfare where absolutely tactic is OK to prevent U.S. casualties (like our airplanes dropping all bombs from 10,000 feet) no matter how many civilian casualties produce. Just like the 78-day air war against Yugoslavia, the MSM will never print anything negative about a Clinton war on anyone.

Heck, I might even be tempted to vote for Hillary over John if Israel can not or will not take care of this Iran mess all by itself. The former Goldwater Girl might be just the leader for this awful but increasingly unavoidable job.

And don't forget the rising sectarian violence in Iraq; there was speculation before that Iran is ratcheting this up.

Just briefly:

Kevin Drum ignored what was going on in the Palestine-Israel situation for 2-3 weeks.

Every time I got on here, I made a post about this shortfall. I got 2-3 support posts.

Thank you very much, all you ignorant beings.

If Bush truly were a Christian, he might realize the wisdom in the idea that, "You reap what you sow".

Just briefly:

Kevin Drum ignored what was going on in the Palestine-Israel situation for 2-3 weeks.

Every time I got on here, I made a post about this shortfall. I got 2-3 support posts.

Thank you very much for the support, and (sarcastically) all you ignorant beings.

Now that KD posts, you comment. Thanks for being independent and having a strong and defined view. Thanks for your support. NOT!!!!!

And that is why, now, we have so many people saying they never supported the war on Iraq. Or government intrusion into our communications.

Oh! Wait! I haven't heard any big erruption against intrusion.

Asses. Many out there!

You know, wake up! You all speak against the repubnuts but don't even see what is going on under you nose.

Israel's got a motive to blame Iran. The US has too. They both lie all the time and you still take them at face value ? Wake up

Yeah. And while IF Stone's dictum that "All government's lie," is true of all, among the democracies, your goverment and Israel's have an special talent for this. I trust absolutely nothing coming from either source until I have tons of corroborating evidence. Both the US and Israeli governemts have for too strong a record of lying. It's sad but that's what happens when you're running disinformation all the time and to my mind it's a much higher cost than anything that is possibly gained.

Oh and Mike Cook, you're just one sordid bag of prejudice. Just wipe out all the funny little foreign people you don't understand. It's ugly in the extreme. They're Iranians. They're lying. Possibly. But I know you guys are.

Oh and why do you people always rerun with canards that have been disproven again and again and again. It's tiresome in the extreme. Look just because you were a complete dupe when it came to WMDs doensn't mean the rest of us were. I was screaming that there were no WMDs. The problem with our particular species of ape is that when the big ape with authority hoots that something is so, all too many of us too obliging apes stop trusting what they can see and following the hooter. I wouldn't brag about the fact that you're a gullible sap.

Are you going to be like the protestors I passed outside the Caterpillar dealership last week, who are still carrying on about the Israeli bulldozer running over the young American lady who was more eager to die for the Palestinians than the U.S.A.?

Hi there, you fascist,

what on earth gives you the notion that you can write murderous things like this, reveling in the crushing to death of a young woman who demonstrated peacefully for her political beliefs, and not go straight to Hell when you die?

I am a dedicated Zionist who believes in the right of Israel to defend itself against Palestinian terrorism. I also believe in the right of the parents of Rachel Corrie, should they ever encounter you, to beat you to a senseless pulp, if you ever repeated this sort of garbage within their hearing.

notthere:

Your point is well taken. Ignoring the Israeli'bs mistreatment of the Palestinian people is to ignore the root cause of Islamoterrorism. Much was made of Saddam’s failure to comply with UN resolutions, but Israel has failed to comply with at least as many, most notably UN Resolution 242.

But maybe there is still hope. A new poll finds people plan to vote overwhelmingly for Democrats in 2006.

SK

There is a lot of room for nuance between "greenlighting" and "masterminding".

You could ask yourself if Iran could (if it wanted to!) ever "red light" a shootout/kidnapping. Its not like the could get a consensus against putting oil money into fighting gods war because hezbollah disobayed one "order".

( "Yeah I know we have been funding you and I know we are fighting the devil here, but could you please wait a few days? Great... see you at the "fight the infidels" bbq tomorow, cheers" )

Hezbollah has plenty of reason to show why it thinks it is still around. Israel left Lebanon (more or less) and so did syria (more or less). So why is there still an armed group other than the goverment running parts of the country? If Hezbollah just was loyal to the goverment it is part of some people could live with that, hell they voted for them! But its Iranian loyaltees might bother other Lebanese. Israel seem to think it can bomb these question into the lebanese people, the candy handed out in celebration of the kidnap story suggest more bombs or a diffrend tactic would be needed :-(

Remember that the Israeli tactics of bombing roads and bridges and making sonic booms in the middle of the night are targetted at the civilian population. Suicide bombers are not stopped by a hole in the road or some sleep deprivation.

"this is the punishment you get when you vote the wrong way, we expect your goverment to negotiate on our terms today".

One thing is certain, if you ask the Israelies, Ledeen and Wolfowitz they will say hezbollah, the Iranian government, Hamas and Syria are just diffend words for the same thing. (Beelzebub, the devil and kids on your lawn, its all the same thing really... "somebody should bomb all of that unless they all get of my lawn! In my day whe didn`t fund murderous militias just over some politics, we played hoop and stick all day... Oh wait, that contra thing")

Similair analysis can be found in a European newspapers...

"This might be a little too neat but expect the drumbeat against Tehran's terrorism sponsoring to escalate as the nuke issue heats up..."

If memory serves me right, the attacks against Israel across the borders of Gaza and Lebanon were directed against soldiers, not civilians, which doesn't strike me as the conventional definition of "terrorism."

On the other hand, I'm genuinely curious how Israel's repeated bombing of the Beirut airport doesn't meet the definition of striking a civilian target. And, of course, most of the dead in the Israel/Lebanon clash are Lebanese civilians.

Why is blowing up civilians with a bomb not "terrorism" if you deliver it with an airplane and not a suicide belt, car or truck?

Dense...
All I can say is, thank god we invaded Iraq so the burgeoning democracy there can serve as a model for the rest of the area.

Your welcome

(because I know it often travels poorly by post - that was sarcasm)

Even a broken clock...

Israel always takes advantage of things to attack infrastructure. In other words, they have a separate agenda. I stopped supporting their separate agenda years ago.

If memory serves me right, the attacks against Israel across the borders of Gaza and Lebanon were directed against soldiers, not civilians, which doesn't strike me as the conventional definition of "terrorism."

Call it an act of war then. Although I would classify blowing up Khobar Towers (Air Force), the USS Cole (Navy) and Marine Barracks in Beirut as acts of terrorism.

On the other hand, I'm genuinely curious how Israel's repeated bombing of the Beirut airport doesn't meet the definition of striking a civilian target. And, of course, most of the dead in the Israel/Lebanon clash are Lebanese civilians.

Good question. They also bombed the road connecting to Syria, which makes it sound like Israel is treating it as an act of war, and they are trying to prevent the movement of something.

Why is blowing up civilians with a bomb not "terrorism" if you deliver it with an airplane and not a suicide belt, car or truck?

They are not specifically targeting civilians. They are targeting things (runways, bridges, Hezbollah weapons,...)

Messages are sent back and forth in code from Gaza by carrier pigeons so fast Israel has never seen one, let alone intercepted one.

That tears it. American Hawk is a parody.

Bush and like-minded ideologues are old school commie conspiracy devotees who believe that no events take place without state sponsors. So Hamas or Hizbollah cannot possibly be acting on their own? Who is the state actor? Let's blame Iran? Syria?

Without the Israeli army to keep them under the thumb, the unemployed in Gaza take out their frustrations on the Israelis. Without the Syrians around to make them act like adults, Hizzbollah acts out. It's summer. It's hot. It's not like the LA riots required a state sponsor. Who benefits from this chaos? Is there some coherent argument that Iran receives some benefit here?

How do we know that these kidnappings are not the work of Jihadis returning home after learning new tactics in Iraq?

Call it an act of war then.

I have no problem with that.

Although I would classify blowing up Khobar Towers (Air Force), the USS Cole (Navy) and Marine Barracks in Beirut as acts of terrorism.

How do you figure, Mike? Seriosuly -- aren't barracks and warships legitimate military targets? Or is it just an act of "terrorism" when an act of asymmetrical warfare succeeds?

Good question.

Which you do nothing to answer.

They also bombed the road connecting to Syria, which makes it sound like Israel is treating it as an act of war, and they are trying to prevent the movement of something.

Roads and bridges are legitimate military targets. Interdicting movement is a legitimate military mission. However, given that Israel has total air superiority over Lebanon, the fact that Israel can be said to be striking legitimate military targets toes not rule out the possibility that, in attacking Beirut's airport, they are not also attacking a civilian target or engaging in collective punishment of civilians. That is not an act of war, it's a war crime.

They are not specifically targeting civilians. They are targeting things (runways, bridges, Hezbollah weapons,...)

...and if a couple of dozen civilians get in the way, that's just too darn bad, eh? So you haven't answered my question, Mike -- why is blowing up civilians with a bomb not "terrorism" if you deliver it with an airplane and not a suicide belt, car or truck? Israel claims to be targeting the things you mention -- which is, of course, all we know about it -- but the fact remains that civilian casualties are strikingly disproportionate. As a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself, I am concerned about the risk that the perception who is attacking military targets and who is blowing up civilians does not tilt in Israel's favor.

Maybe terrorists should just claim that they "aren't specifically targeting civilians, they are targeting things," and hey presto! By your definition, no more terrorism!

By God, Mike -- you've solved the terrorism problem! Congratulations!

three weeks I'll be a parent for the first time

Congratulations and best wishes, floop.

Those who are interested in the facts on the ground might want to read Michael Totten's blog entry from last April where he finds that Iran has taken over control of the Hezbollah zone of southern Lebanon. This is Iran's policy, probably to divert attention from the nuclear standoff. Also, the rocket that struck Haifa was Iranian and of longer range than the Hamas variety.

The Totten post is predicting exactly what happened, including the kidnapping.

Even a broken clock...

Well, now the violence and anarchy in Iraq appears to be spreading to Lebanon. Swell job, there, Mike.

Ignatius and Baer are hopeless moonbats, covering up for their Islamofascist buddies. Everyone knows who the real culprit is, who Iran takes their orders from....Kos!

OK, I will assume Iran is behind all of the stuff in Gaza. What are we supposed to do about it.

Our army is tied down in Iraq trying to keep the Shiites and Sunnis from killing each other (with little or no success.) Actually we are there to protect the oil for Exxon (again with little or no success.)

North Korea is rattling sabers and we are needed there to keep the Japanese from deciding it is time to take them out. That would be sure to piss off our Chinese friends.

Who could blame the Japanese under the circumstances. Didn't the decider say that preemption is a legitmate position when there is a looming threat. The North Koreans have launched a flock of missles in Japan's general direction.

Just what is the United States supposed to do in this setting. Maybe we could hire the Russians to take out the Iranians?

Couldn't we just have a couple of days of peace? It might catch on.

Those who are interested in the facts on the ground might want to read Michael Totten's blog entry

Your first assertion does not appear to support your second.

Also, the rocket that struck Haifa was Iranian and of longer range than the Hamas variety.

Iran exports its weaponry, duh. It's good the USA is above that sort of thing, hey? Shall we compare again how many civilian casualties have been inflicted by US-made vweapons versus Hezbollah's this go-round?

North Korea is rattling sabers and we are needed there to keep the Japanese from deciding it is time to take them out.

With all due respect, Ron, but with what army?

Japan's military is basically for terrirotial self-defense (against Godzilla, according to the movies), with the US providing most of the heavy lifting. Of course, it isn't surprising that Japan would be alarmed at the US's obvious wekaness regarding the Korean situation...

The speed with which this elaborate narrative appeared should be proof enough it is propaganda, it certainly will function that way. How does anyone know the details of clandestine operations in the Middle East? What assumptions do they make when they reason the puzzle pieces together?

Israeli nationalists and their American allies start from the premise that all Israel’s enemies, even if they are enemies of one another, form a single force. Even if there is no material connection there is at least a spiritual one, which gives us permission to assume material and political alliances. This is the substance of propaganda.

To believe in a tacit alliance between Iran, Syria, the Palestinians, Hamas, and Hezbollah, and Saddam and bin Laden requires a suspension of history. To think that they strategically coordinate is the stuff of mysticism.

Worldly nationalists know this Manichaeism is all rubbish but it is intended for softer minds.

Gregory
RSM: Although I would classify blowing up Khobar Towers (Air Force), the USS Cole (Navy) and Marine Barracks in Beirut as acts of terrorism.

How do you figure, Mike? Seriosuly -- aren't barracks and warships legitimate military targets? Or is it just an act of "terrorism" when an act of asymmetrical warfare succeeds?

An act of terror is one whose purpose is to instill terror and fear. They were all strikes at the hearts and minds of the US. Militarily, they were mosquito bites.

RSM: Good question.

Which you do nothing to answer.

Well duh, unlike some here I don't pretend to have the answers to everything.

Roads and bridges are legitimate military targets. Interdicting movement is a legitimate military mission. However, given that Israel has total air superiority over Lebanon, the fact that Israel can be said to be striking legitimate military targets toes not rule out the possibility that, in attacking Beirut's airport, they are not also attacking a civilian target or engaging in collective punishment of civilians. That is not an act of war, it's a war crime.

Yes, you could in theory draw such a conclusion is you were inclined to think the worst of Israel. Or you could assume they are trying to prevent movement and to hit Hezbollah.

RSM: They are not specifically targeting civilians. They are targeting things (runways, bridges, Hezbollah weapons,...)

So you haven't answered my question, Mike -- why is blowing up civilians with a bomb not "terrorism" if you deliver it with an airplane and not a suicide belt, car or truck?

Terror has as its purpose...creating terror. It is meant to strike at the hearts of its enemy and create fear. Sending out 1000 envelopes dusted with baby powder and one with anthrax is an act of terror. Sawing offa head and videotaping it for distribution is an act of terror. Blowing up a bridge to remove an avenue for escape is not.

Israel claims to be targeting the things you mention -- which is, of course, all we know about it --

Lebanon has open media, so we are getting a view not just sanitized by Israel.

but the fact remains that civilian casualties are strikingly disproportionate. As a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself, I am concerned about the risk that the perception who is attacking military targets and who is blowing up civilians does not tilt in Israel's favor.

I worry about it too.

Maybe terrorists should just claim that they "aren't specifically targeting civilians, they are targeting things," and hey presto! By your definition, no more terrorism!

But targeting civilians is their whole purpose. Their purpose is to kill civilians and instill terror. Saying they were targeting a bridge and accidentally knocked off a few locals would suggest they were the gang that couldn't shoot straight and undercut their whole raison d'etre.

Gregory
Well, now the violence and anarchy in Iraq appears to be spreading to Lebanon. Swell job, there, Mike.

Are you suggesting I am a member of Hezbollah?

If the administration wants to go to war, they'll find a reason to go to war.

The accuracy of the intelligence - it should be clear enough by now - is completely irrelevant.

Wasn't it about a year ago that the Lebanese told the Syrians to take a hike and get out of their country, demonstrated for more moderation, with the Bush apologists bragging about how his "policy"(such as it was) had succeeded in bring more democracy and moderation to another ME country? Oh, and all those hot Lebanese women!

The cedar revolution, oh well, it was good while it lasted. Now they're just cannon fodder.

"what on earth gives you the notion that you can write murderous things like this, reveling in the crushing to death of a young woman who demonstrated peacefully for her political beliefs, and not go straight to Hell when you die?"

Here she is. Pretty entertaining over here. Not very educational but some light relief all the same.

Blowing up a bridge to remove an avenue for escape is not.

Tell that to the people who live there and whose family members were victims of the "collateral damage".

I would comment on Iran and Syria telling Hamas and Hezbollah what to do, but KOS hasn't told me to say anything yet.
.

An act of terror is one whose purpose is to instill terror and fear.

How about "Shock and Awe"?

Yes, you could in theory draw such a conclusion is you were inclined to think the worst of Israel. Or you could assume they are trying to prevent movement and to hit Hezbollah.

I think you're a bit mixed up there, Mike. Given that Beirut's airport is a civilian target, and that Israel's air superiority over Lebanon makes it exceedingly unlikely Hezbollah -- which, if memory serves me right, lacks an air force -- would move by air, and that more over you acknowledged it's a "good question" what legitimate military purpose the attacks on the airport serves, objectively the attack is questionable -- you don't have to be "inclined to think the worst of Israel" at all. To the contrary, it's you who has to contort yourself to excuse it by presuming, against evidence and logic, that it's justified.

Could it be that the destruction of the Beirut's civilian airport could have an act whose purpose is to instill terror and fear?

Sawing offa head and videotaping it for distribution is an act of terror. Blowing up a bridge to remove an avenue for escape is not.

I am not aware of Hezbollah sawing off the heads of the soldiers it captured. And, of course, airstrikes have the effect of creating terror and fear. Again, all we know of the purpose is what Israel claims. (Lebanon's open media has no greater insights into Israel's purpose than you or I do, so your citation of it is meaningless.) And again, is there any likely explanation of bombing Beirut's airport other than to create terror and fear in the civilian populace? If so, you have failed to provide it.

But targeting civilians is their whole purpose. Their purpose is to kill civilians and instill terror.

That's why your solution is so brilliant, Mike -- all they need to do is target things! Then civilian casualties become "collateral damage," and as we all know, that's perfectly acceptable.

And, of course, you tacitly acknowledge with your statement that targeting soldiers is not, in fact, terrorism.

Saying they were targeting a bridge and accidentally knocked off a few locals would suggest they were the gang that couldn't shoot straight and undercut their whole raison d'etre.

So are you claiming that, since Israel claims to be targeting things and not people, but there are significant numbers of civilian casualties in Lebanon, that suggests Israel is the gang that couldn't shoot straight?

And more importantly, are you really saying unintentional civilian casualites undercuts the whole raison d'etre? You might want to reconsider that statement, there, Mike.

Are you suggesting I am a member of Hezbollah?

I'm suggesting the example of Iraq isn't the positive one you'd like it to be.

It's fascinating, though, that you said Hezbollah. Why not the IDF?

If you are so exercised about Israel destroying Beiruit airport, what do you have to say about the Lebanese government flying its civilian airliners to Jordan to avoid damage ? Maybe you don't have the facts ? The Israelis are trying to cut off resupply for Hezbollah by shutting down the airlift from Iran and Syria.

There seems to be a determination to blame Israel when, in fact, a lot of the trouble comes from their decisions to evacuate Labanon and Gaza. Did anybody read the Michael Totten piece ?

The Networks don't think the Iran connection is newsworthy -- just this morning, Matt Laurer purported to cover "all the angles" which included (of course) U.S. gas prices but only mention Iran "possibly entering" the conflict IF Israel attacks Syria. Let's see how quickly they explictly blame Bush for Iran cutting off oil.

Gregory
Israel's air superiority over Lebanon makes it exceedingly unlikely Hezbollah -- which, if memory serves me right, lacks an air force -- would move by air

Commercial air. Same as for highways and ships.

...and that more over you acknowledged it's a "good question" what legitimate military purpose the attacks on the airport serves, objectively the attack is questionable --

No, I am saying I need more data. I feel no need to rush to judgement, realizing that whatever is going on over there, we are seeing the 1% poking above the surface. You appear to be in a hurry to reach a conclusion.

It's fascinating, though, that you said Hezbollah. Why not the IDF?

Uh, because Hezbollah and Hamas kidnapped Israeli soldiers? In short, they started it.

RSM: Are you suggesting I am a member of Hezbollah?

Let's toss you in Guantanamo for a few years just to make sure. Better safe than sorry. If there's even a one percent chance....

Re: "...warning shots across the American bow?"

Oh, great! Just what our cowboy/caudillo government needs

How about "Shock and Awe"?

Heh. Indeed. So by Mike's own definition the US military engaged in terrorism in its "Shock and Awe" campaign.

*sigh* Always blaming America first, that Mike....

If you are so exercised about Israel destroying Beiruit airport, what do you have to say about the Lebanese government flying its civilian airliners to Jordan to avoid damage ?

Given that Israel bombed Beirut's civilian airport, that seems to have been a prudent move.

Again, Mike, given that Israel enjoys air superiority over Lebanon, it doesn't need to attack the civilian airport in order to "cut off resupply for Hezbollah by shutting down the airlift from Iran and Syria" (which, of course, begs the question "what airlift from Iran and Syria?).

It isn't a matter of "determination to blame Israel." Regardless of which side is doing it, attacks against military targets are justified; attacks against civilian targets are not -- especially if its "purpose is to instill terror and fear" -- right, RSM?

It seems, though, that there's a determination by RSM and Mike K to give Israel a free pass on its actions, whether because it's perceived as an ally or just "the good guy."

As Kevin posted, this conflict does seem to serve the agenda of a hawkish faction in the US government. I simply suggest that attacking civilian targets with the purpose to instill terror and fear is not in Israel's interest -- let's face it, the current situation proves that these tactics have hardly ended the violence -- and that unconditional support for Israel is not in the interest of the United States.

Mike K:

Thanks for the links to the Michael Totten blog. Very compelling. If Iran is really behind the kidnappings, I am expecting really, really bad things to come. Like nukes flying toward Tehran.
Things haven't looked this ugly in the world since the Cuban missle crisis in 1962 - and here we have the worst, most incompetent president in history in the drivers seat!

May God help us all....

Gregory and Stefan defending the terrorists yet again -- at least Peter Jennings can't blame Bush for all the Arabs' treachery anymore.

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A child doesn't take a crap in Gaza without first getting permission from the Mullahs........

So Mr.Hawk with that conservative gem of logic. Every time you post here, do you ran it by Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Karl Rove first.

Gregory and Stefan defending the terrorists yet again

Actually, I believe it was Red State Mike who said than an act "whose purpose is to instill terror and fear" is "an act of terror" -- and that therefore, the US military's Shock and Awe, whose stated and avowed purpose was to instill terror and fear in the Iraqis, was an act of terror. His definition, not mine.