Iran and Syria are sponsors of Hezbollah and Hamas and are obviously closely aligned with their actions, but whether they actively approved of the recent kidnappings appears to be unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable.
And, perhaps it doesn't matter that much. Whether or not Iran and Syria actively approved the kidnappings, they created terrorist groups who naturally were going to commit terrorism. A long-run solution in the middle east must includefinding a means to stop Iran and Syria from promoting terrorist groups in other countries.

Am I suggesting that Israel and the US attack Iran and Syria? Such a move would initiate a bloody war. Yet, I can't think of anything else.

The fact that you can't think of any solution other than murdering people with whom you disagree is, more than anything else, why you were never a liberal in the first place.

The administration would try to walk back an untrue story about Syria and Iran? Or is he talking about journalists?

I'm not sure I believe either scenario.

You mean there was no global conspiracy to kidnap an Israeli soldier led by Kos, Michael Moore, and Ted Kennedy?

I am so disappointed.

...but whether they actively approved of the recent kidnappings appears to be unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable.

Huh?

Why would you quote this guy who says stories of Iran/Syria pre-involvement are NOT true and then finish your post in that inconclusive way?

Ex-lib, how are we going to attack Iran/Syria; with what resources; with whose soldiers? And when we do, who is going to bale out the American consumer when the price of oil hits $120.00 per barrel.

There is enough "blame" to go around to all parties in this long running sad affair. When will you humans quit using badly translated speeches of mine to justify your insane behaviors ?

Shhhh God, the mortals are talking.

I'm skeptical of the claims going around that Hamas and Hezbollah have planned this for a long time. It's always possible, but it seems to fit too neatly into an Israeli-PR-Propaganda angle, since anyone who wants to support what Israel is doing right now is going to want to downplay the Gaza beach incident which seemed to start all of this (even though the mainstream media seems to want to insist this all started with the two soldiers).

For Israel to save face, and for those who want to support Israel destroying Lebanon and killing 66 civilians so far because a handful of their soldiers were kidnapped to save face, you need to spin history so that the Gaza beach incident was tangential and not a cause of anything that followed.

Color me skeptical, and also incredulous that Israel would take so many civilian lives because a handful of their soldiers were kidnapped. Incredulous will turn to outraged if this continues for even one more day.

It's obviously time for UN peacekeepers in Palestine. All sides in that conflict have proven themselves unworthy, and Israel has definitely proved themselves unworthy to hold military dominance over the other parties as a negotiating card any longer.

UN peacekeepers in Israel, and a UN-negotiated settlement along the lines of the Geneva Accord. Then the world can move on, and our national security in the United States become less endangered. If the Arab and Muslim parties then insist on continued hostilities with Israel, and to drive them out of existence, the US backed by the UN can then act in good conscience to take these actors out.

It's embarrassing actually that we have these liberals coming out of the woodwork with their "sources" coming out of the woodwork claiming to know the internal deliberations of Hezbollah and Hamas, especially when these deliberations conveniently seem to discount that the Gaza beach massacre has any bearing or signifigance on the events that have followed and are now out of control.

As I said, it's within the realm of possibility that these "sources" are accurate, but it's certainly not likely, at least based upon the available (reliable) information.

I will never alter my own view of reality, especially framed through rhetoric, just because I want to see it a particular way since that would be more comforting or convenient or politically advantageous - that's what reality-based ia supposed to mean.

The fact that you can't think of any solution other than murdering people with whom you disagree is, more than anything else, why you were never a liberal in the first place.

Heavy -- Iran and Syria are responsible for the many tragic Israeli and Palestinian deaths in the current conflict. That's more than my merely "disagreeing" with these two regimes.

Ex-lib, how are we going to attack Iran/Syria; with what resources; with whose soldiers? And when we do, who is going to bale out the American consumer when the price of oil hits $120.00 per barrel.

Keith G., I totally agree with your point. Attacking these two countries would be extremely costly and difficult, with no guarantee of success. Yet, I cannot think of another strategy with any hope at all.

I wish Jimm were right, and the the UN could solve the problem. However, I have no confidence in that organization. The UN has been trying to solve the problems between Israel and its neighbors for almost 60 years, but have little or noting to show for their efforts.

I wish Jimm were right, and the the UN could solve the problem. However, I have no confidence in that organization. The UN has been trying to solve the problems between Israel and its neighbors for almost 60 years, but have little or noting to show for their efforts.

The UN has never had control on the ground, and, when I speak of the UN, I don't really expect "the UN" to do anything, but for interested actors with the US being the foremost forcing a solution "through" the UN. By allowing the Israeli military to be the dominant force on the ground, we have ensured ongoing conflict between the parties whenever things get tense. With UN peacekeepers on the ground, then both sides will be challenged to be on their best behavior or lose their support in the UN.

Of course, the US has always blocked any kind of accountability or responsibility to the UN for Israel, so I'm not optimistic about seeing any progress now, or UN peacekeepers on the ground. That would take real leadership, and I'm skeptical that Democratic leadership will have the courage to do anything along these lines either. Instead, we'll just continue to see our national security and brand degrade further and further. A shame, really.

Indeed, one could very well see a scenario where Hamas and Hezbollah are effectively declawed once UN peacekeepers are on the ground, since if they take violent actions then, noone with any real influence on the Security Council would be able to condone it.

I say we ban everything but small arms and issue everyone in the area one of these.

Did anyone else catch Countdown? They had a guy who said Israel had been planning its response for five years? It appears all the actors in the Middle East have just been waiting for their moment.

Please.

Bush Crime Family all the way.

Escalating Tensions means continuing impetus for War On Terror, which means Republican retention of House and Senate, which means no subpoena power for Dems, which means no investigations, no censure, no impeachment, no accountablity for the Bush Cabal, and they continue to profit off - what is it now? $80/bbl. oil - where the bulk of that $80, is pure speculative panic on the part of the traders who don't control the world political situation - who fear that it's out of control, who don't know that it's actually very well under control.

If only we could see the data dump from the SWIFT program that tracks international money transactions. I'm sure there's a money-trail from the Bushes, to the Sauds, to the bin Ladens, to Hezbollah. And the Right accuses *US* of supporting terror. If they only would open their eyes.

Yet, I cannot think of another strategy with any hope at all.

You, like all neocons, have a severe, and crippling lack of imagination.

Hey, I got an idea - why don't we do what Liberals have been talking about for 40 years. Fuck Israel, let them sleep in their own bed they made. Put the $300 billion into r&d for alternative energy, instead of fighting wars for oil. When we're independent of foreign oil, we can leave the middle east alone, and not give a crap who is slitting who's throat in some godforsaken desert over what religious disagreement. And we can get on with civilization.

How do the Saudis figure in to this? Not just concerning Israel, but concerning potential chaos in Iraq Kevin alluded to in earlier posts.

Certainly there are sympathetic members of the royal family willing to donate to Hamas and Hezbollah (more so after events like those of this week), but doesn't Saudi Arabia have a stake in these events as a country? If Iraq is taken over by Iran-aligned Shiite islamists it might be a tad uncomfortable. Events in Israel and Lebanon won't be welcomed by the crown prince either.

Do they care? What power do they have and are they willing to exert it? Are they putting pressure on Bush?

Will repeated US vetoes in the UN piss them off? Do the leaders of Saudi Arabia and Qatar just sponsor these resolutions to placate their people?

I say we ban everything but small arms and issue everyone in the area one of these.
Posted by: B

Too hot :) But, I'd vote for it, if you were willing to extend the ban world-wide

Guy Bechor, an analyst who heads the Middle East Division of the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, said Hezbollah would be forced to back down by the airstrikes. “Facing this aerial machine, Nasrallah can do little,” Mr. Bechor said. “And it will lead to its defeat. Israel is not going for an understanding with Hezbollah, but for a victory.” Israel needs a few more days, Mr. Bechor said, to get the message across, and it will echo in Gaza, he said. “New parameters in Lebanon will make it easier for Israel with the Palestinians,” he suggested.

"I swear, this time we're really going to show them. After this military campaign, they will be demoralized and never fight us again." - Israeli military analyst, 1936, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1989, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2006

I think the Palestinians and Hizbollah should form a joint communications bureau and hire Baghdad Bob as the talent.

"Zionists are dying in their tanks by the thousands, as the glorious liberation continues. They can not stand against our fury." - Arab military analyst, 1936, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1989, 2000, 2004, 2006

Crap. Another I/P thread. Time was I'd think something so advertised would concern intellectual property - which is just about as boring. (Net neutrality, anyone?)

So, given the game that's being played, who's Sunni, who's Shia? (What's that you say, Lassie? Timmy fell in the well and has been born again? Praise Thor!)

Sorry, but what does this regional nonsense (this is Africa, anyway. What does it matter if it's on the north coast or the east) have to do with the price of beans? Or oil?

If Hezbollah could kill and capture Israeli soldiers at will, then there would be a lot more dead or captured Israeli soldiers. This could only be planned ahead if there was a pattern of showing this particular vulnerability.

With things already lit up with Gaza, you'd think the Israeli troops would be on full alert. So either the Israelis got extraordinarily careless or they honeyed a trap.

Hamas and Hezbollah have their own agendas which Syria and Iran both find conveniently align with their own objectives. Both terror organizations survive because they have strong local support. Their fellow Arabs see them as a resistance. This is the real constituency they have to keep sweet. Israel's actions continually reinforce their support and justify their existence.

Lebanon's politics are, to say the least, byzantine (couldn't resist that), strained and fragile. It behaves as a semi-Christian country even though Arabs have the majority, and, left to their own devices, have been relatively creative and prosperous. We, the US, do not need any more instability in the Middle East than we have already created. We should value Lebanon and help them maintain their democracy (no, Israel is not the only democracy in that corner). Israel doesn't give a f*** what we need.

The two state solution will come about when all major parties see an advantage in that happening. When expectations align. I translate Israel's actions as always trying to delay coming to a solution, letting the goalposts slide with time to their advantage. Given a choice, I don't think most Palestinians want to live in ghettoes in constant fear and oppression.

If I was Bush -- thank god I'm not -- I would be on the phone to Olmert and laying some heavy pressure to tone this whole thing down. His reaction has been indiscriminate and murderous.

I think billmon has a pretty good take on it. Time is not on Isreals side.

You got stories quoting anonymous Israeli intelligence officials spinning a direct role for Iran in these kidnappings for the most blatantly obvious of reasons and you take them seriously ?

These guys could not find an entire nuclear weapons program and we are supposed to believe that they are privy to details of the operational decision making processes between Iran and Hezbollah ? And that they are using this intelligence to make anonymous debating points in the NY Times, as opposed to, perhaps, not getting their troops killed ?

It was clear as day that Iran's role in the decisions was "unknowable" from the very start.

Could you do us all a favour and use the fact that any pundit that is certain of Iran's role in this crisis is talking out of their ass as a datapoint the next time you are looking for information on an international story. I don't think you want to have to finish another series of post with Rumsfieldian prose like "...unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable." again if you can avoid it.

I love your blog. I think your domestic stuff is some of the best around, but your international posts often feel like they are being written by someone afraid to express an opinion. You seem to be happy to fall in the middle of the he said/she said spectrum, a trap you don't fall into when looking at complicated domestic issues. Perhaps its because you are not confident enough on some of these issues to completely and swiftly discount a set of views as bogus.

I also don't understand your reluctance to address the Israel issue head-on, Kevin. While the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers is an egregious act, Israel's reaction is far out of proportion to the original action. And let's be clear - American tax dollars are again being used to kill innocent people in Lebanon and Gaza. Israel is the largest recipient of American foreign aid. We are all accessories to mass murder.

One of the most ironic and tragic turn of events in the last 75 years of human history is that a people who were nearly wiped out by genocide (the Jews) are now committing slow genocide against the Palestinian people. America sits tacitly by while Israel pens the Palestinians in like animals, steals their water resources, bulldozes their dwellings and slaughters huge numbers of them without any consequence from their largest patron. American needs to cut off all aid, military and otherwise until Israel treats the Palestinians with respect and human dignity.

Otherwise, there will never, ever be an end to Islamoterrorism.

If they are at war with each other than why do you, and many others, insist on writing and saying the soliders were kidnapped? They were captured, were they not?

Nevertheless, it is an example of the kind of trouble Iran could easily bring to bear on us if the nuclear negotiations do not go their way. And with the Americans exposed in Iraq, they have Bush's balls in a vice.

a remarkably ignorant post made worse or better, I'm not sure, but not seeming to have a point - but it nicely points to the limitations of blogs: yous all mildly interesting yelping round the heels of inside Washington stuff etc etc and one can ususally pick up some useful bits of info - but when it comes to the big issues, the truly complex and dangerous ones, you're idiots.

" . . . but when it comes to the big issues, the truly complex and dangerous ones, you're idiots."

And you've added . . . what?

Moron.

Once again Kevin voices the perspective of the trendy left -- go out searching for any way to deflect criticism from the kidnappers and make the warmongering Isreali/Bush PR machine the issue. First you gullibly accept the premise that Isreal just happened to leave these two vehicles unprotected at this juncture -- why would they do that in the middle of a crisis? You say this group has coordinated "dialog" with Hezbollah for a few years -- sounds like a Rachel Corie type outfit to me. I'd demand a little more proof before accepting that kind of tendentious argument. Second, how do you explain the Iranian missle that just hit Isreal's northern command if Iran wasn't clued in beforehand? Do you honestly think Hezbollah would have taken this action when their paymasters are at the most crucial stage of diplomacy without informing them/getting permission first? Come on Kevin, your hair trigger blame-the-west instincts are showing.

This may be a good opportunity to observe that Laura Rozen is a extremely valuable source of high-value reportage and commentary.

An article in Ha'aretz that would never see print in an American paper. Israel is not a godhead, but a nation, having the rights and responsibilities of same. It must be subject to International law and criticism just as any other nation. Why is criticism of Israel forbidden in the American press? Even more so than in Israel itself?

"A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament.

A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change.

Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier.

more

And minion of rove, your chauvinistic, "America and Israel can do no wrong" instincts are showing. I suggest you do a little reading about the way that the Palestinians have been and are being treated by the Israelis, before you reflexively blame the A-rabs....

By the way, God doesn't just bless America. He blesses the whole world.

Oh, man. Like clockwork, the press is helping Israel set the stage for a war with Iran. From the AP:

"A senior Israeli intelligence official said Iranian troops helped Hezbollah fire a missile that damaged an Israeli warship off the Lebanese coast Friday night.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information, said about 100 Iranian soldiers are in Lebanon and helped fire the Iranian-made, radar-guided C-102 at the ship that killed one and left three missing."

I'm scared.

If any readers want more info on Iran's involvement, go to AustinBay.com.

Also, PowerLineBlog.com has links to a Jerusalem Post article on Iranian involvement.

Evidently Hezbollah's rockets come from Iran.

Marc Perelman writes in the Forward (yet another theory, take it for what it is worth):

In contrast to those pointing a finger at Damascus, some observers see the Israeli diplomatic offensive against Syria as a way to maintain Jerusalem's standing in Washington. Joshua Landis, an assistant professor of history at Oklahoma University currently based in Damascus, contends that Israel is seeking to win more leeway for its actions in the Palestinian territories by underlining that it is not dealing with the "Palestinians" but with an international "axis of evil" including Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran.

"The greatest danger for Israel is that the 'West' and most importantly Washington, will begin to see Israel as a mill stone around Washington's neck," wrote Landis, who runs the Syrian Comment blog, in an email to the Forward. "Now that the pet theory of the neocons — that the road to Jerusalem goes through Baghdad — has proven wrong, many in Washington are beginning to come back to the notion that what happens in Israel and Palestine is important to Washington's image in the Middle East and its success in the war on terror. That is why it is all important for [Israel] to keep the focus off 'occupation' and 'legitimate democratic leaders' where the Palestinians will try to put it, and on terror, dictators, and terrorists, where Israel will put it. By focusing on Mashal and not [Palestinian Prime Minister and fellow Hamas leader Ismail] Haniya, on Damascus and not the P.A., and on terrorism and not occupation, [Israel] can remind the U.S. that the two are in the same camp and fighting the same war."

Evidently Hezbollah's rockets come from Iran.

And Saddam Hussein’s WMDs come from Niger.

Stephen Kriz,

I also don't understand your reluctance to address the Israel issue head-on, Kevin. While the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers is an egregious act, Israel's reaction is far out of proportion to the original action.

It's also two months after the Israelis install a new leader, one with no military experience and a known preference for discussions. Among other things his willingness to use force was being tested. If he didn't use force, then the kinds of testing would be made even more difficult until Hamas and Hezbollah learned his limits.

What do the Israelis do to keep these events from recurring? Both the Gaza and the Hezbollah cases escalated rapidly - that's on both sides. The spread of the attacks from Gaza to Lebanon was an escalation all by itself.

Try trapping a rat in a corner then walking up to the rat and tapping his nose and then tell me if you would expect a "proportionate" reaction. What you will get is full-blown rat-attack with all claws and teeth operating at top speed and best possible accuracy. There's no trust between the sides in the Middle East, and no reason to think any trust can exist.

Without trust there will be no so-called "proportionate" response to incitements. Nor should anyone expect it. Hezbollah and Hamas both have as avowed goals the destruction of Israel and both refuse to modify that goal. Demanding that Israel not escalate their counterattacks is demanding that they commit suicide.

Did you just call the Israelis dirty reflex-driven rats?

Did I write "dirty?"

I must say that I did not expect that reading of what I wrote. {grin}

But I do frequently try to find a simpler model of a similar set of actions to use as examples.

I left off the reaction I would get from my house cat if I reached up to where she sleeps on the top of my monitor and tapped HER nose.

First time I did that I pulled my hand back with three shallow but bleeding scratches. But I got faster so I got scratched less. Now she decides if she wants to play, and if she does she opens her eyes, stands up, stretchs, and demonstrates the claws inside those fascinating cat's paws. Then we play "coup" until I get scratched or one of us gets tired.

The difference is the level of trust. The rat has no reason to trust me, so goes directly to the greatest possible counter-attack. The cat knows I am playing and trusts me not to hurt her, so she decides for herself if she wants to play, and if not, she ignores me.

Oh, and I didn't characterize the Israeli decision process. Military decisions will always be largely routine and chosen from an existing repetiore of possible actions, but cannot be characterized as "reflex-driven."

I have read the Mark Perry, Alastair Crooke series of articles, How to Lose the 'War on Terror' over at Asia Times Online (atimes.com.) They are very good. I am glad to see Mr. Drum finally think his way out of the MSM lies, but it is disturbing how this neo-con talking point is instantly given headline status and assumed to be the prevailing wisdom, when it was a blatant lie.

am I suggesting that Israel and the US attack Iran and Syria? Such a move would initiate a bloody war. Yet, I can't think of anything else.

The barren American imagination can only come up with dropping bombs on the weak in order to obtain peace. It is US military aid to Israel that creates endless war in the ME. Hezbollah and Hamas are reactions to it.

I understand that Israel needs to defend itself, but destroying civilian infrastructure just leads to more support for terrorism against Israel.

Palestinians are not going to say, "Well I have no running water, electricity or medicine and my children are at risk for contracting a serious illness. Guess I better go kick Hamas to the curb and make peace with Israel!" The Lebanese are not going to say "Well Israel has destroyed my country's bridges, roads, airport runways, and the whole tourism industry. Guess it's time to get rid of Hezbollah!"

Human nature isn't rational. Kicking the ordinary civilians around is not going to stop terrorism. It will only make terrorism worse.

I do not think the massive Israeli response is the best policy, and I did not address that issue in my previous post. I directed my comment to Kevin's gullibility to the party line response of the left. I only take the time to comment in this space because I believe Kevin is still sometimes salvagable, unlike the goosestepping moonbats that usually lurk in this comments section.
Mr. Perry claims loads of folks are "walking back" their speculations -- o.k., name some names: who's walking back their comments? Answer, nobody. How is Hezbollah firing guided missles without Iranian firing teams? Crickets chirping. Why did two Humvees wander out into the danger zone during a war? Perry provides no support for his wild assertions. Mr. Perry's bio says we was an adviser to that well known humanitarian Yasir thats my baby Arafat -- a great reference for his objectivity and integrity. Yet Kev's readers would know none of this from his posting. Quit drinking the Kool-Aide and try to be as professional as Ann Coulter next time.

P.S.

I'm reminded again of how much you guys either ignored or belittled the primary neocon rationale for the Iraq War -- that we couldn't allow Saddam WMD capability in a new era where he could slip it to "no fingerprints" non-state actors to impact policy. Kevin's closing lines:

Iran and Syria are sponsors of Hezbollah and Hamas and are obviously closely aligned with their actions, but whether they actively approved of the recent kidnappings appears to be unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable.

Yep -- can we pin it on Iran? Can we hold Syria responsible? Apparently not in the eyes of those who have a masochistic need to hate the west and excuse the atrocities of the poor widdie terrorists.

Can someone enlighten me on why Isreal is creating "failed states" on its boarders. If Isreal doesnot have an "eliminationist" policy towords these states then I can't understand how this policy advances Isreal's security.

I think Israel's response was within the range of responses expected by the militants involved. To the extent that they were not involved in the planning and execution of the attacks, Israel's action and it's timing was not forseen by the Lebanese government, Palestinian government, Palestinian children, Lebanese children, etc.

Kevin's questions about the extent of organization and planning is actually critical if one is considering or planning for the possibility of peace.

Let's say these were the actions of rogue militants. Does Israel's reaction make it more likely that the Palestinian and Lebanese governments have the will, strength, and organization to crack down effectively on them? The short term answer is clearly no. It would be politically impossible and logistically unfeasible. I don't know about the long term, but the track record is not good.

If we ever do have peace in the middle east, Israel will have to restrain the reflex reaction when random teenagers attack buses with knifes or explosives (and the Palestinians will have to restrain their response to individual soldiers or settlers going on murderous rampages). It will take strong governments with the street cred (or eloquence and persuasive power?) to be rightly unafraid of being called weak and consequently losing power to more militant factions/parties. That means a strong central government on the Palestinian side that's not being detained in Israel. It means a Palestinian government with security forces that aren't disbanded or hiding in basements. And yes it will take more trust.

Of course you might think that peace is a ridiculous proposition. In which case you are left with ridiculous propostion of defending the status quo.

...How is the Israeli reacion out of proportion? Whatever that means?...

Posted by: Rick B on July 15, 2006 at 10:19 AM | PERMALINK

Well, let's see:

In reaction to 2 soldiers killed and one captured on their Gaza border, Israel closed all borders, separating family members until yesterday when Palestinians blew a hole in the southern wall. They knocked out the power station putting strain on the water and sanitation. They've used a free hand in raining destruction. They've killed over 70 mainly innocent civilians. It is sadly ironic how Israel has ghettoed the Palestinians. As an occupying power, it is against international law to generaaly punish a population for the actions of the few; not to say counterproductive.

On the Lebanon border it is hard to fathom how lax the Israelis were to allow the orginal incident, but, losing 2 captured and 8 killed, they have reacted by destroying Lebanese infrastructure and killing more than 70 innocent civilians.

I don't believe that terrorist acts are a positive contribution. However, why were Hamas and Hezbollah created? As a reaction to just this over-bearing military response that Israel uses. You can't destroy a terrorist organization by creating the conditions that foster the same. They couldn't destroy Hezbollah when they camped in Lebanon; they won't now. You can't tell people they can't have the representatives they voted for; Israel and the US didn't have to escalate overnight to making Hamas a pariah. Now the Palestinians have had confirmed why they think they need Hamas.

I agree with you that a military such as the Israelis works from its contingency plans, so one has to consider these acts as being premeditated. Personally, I count them as criminal.

" . . . as professional as Ann Coulter . . ."

LOL.

As articulate as George Bush.
As ethical as Karl Rove.
As visionary as Michael Brown.
As discreet as Robert Novak.
As virile as Rush Limbaugh.
As chaste as Bill Clinton.

" . . . as professional as Ann Coulter . . ."

LOL.

Yeah. That was my reaction. Really helps put the rest of the commentary in perspective. I was trying not to rise to it. You said it better.

How is Hezbollah firing guided missles without Iranian firing teams? Crickets chirping.

I imagine, like many other weapons systems, they come with instructions...

Kevin,
You might already be aware of this but I got a bunch of what I assume was pron spam from your email address this morning. I also assume it wasn't you who sent it. Right?

smiley

Uh, guys, I think Minion was trying to be funny with that Ann Coulter comment. Probably trying to get Kevin's goat or something.

"Funny" as in: "Apparently not in the eyes of those who have a masochistic need to hate the west and excuse the atrocities of the poor widdie terrorists."

Yup, as professional as Ann Coulter. Literally.

Yep -- can we pin it on Iran? Can we hold Syria responsible? Apparently not in the eyes of those who have a masochistic need to hate the west and excuse the atrocities of the poor widdie terrorists.

I don't believe that terrorist acts are a positive contribution. However, why were Hamas and Hezbollah created? As a reaction to just this over-bearing military response that Israel uses. You can't destroy a terrorist organization by creating the conditions that foster the same.

Thanks minion and nothere.

Wingnuts blame the effect or method.
We the good guys say things like well what nothere says.

Wow - doesn't anybody around here watch international news? This provocation was 100% Jewish.

Israel has been controling our media coverage and as such, we are led to believe this delinquent child is really an abused orphan.

Until Muslims begin targeting Jews outside Israel, this will continue. Collective punishment cuts both ways. Jews have more exposure than Muslims, -- so if Jews begin dying in Paris, Montreal and Buenos Aires for the sins of their psychotic cousins in Tel Aviv - we might see some movement by the Israeli government to rein in the brown shirts.

If Americans could see the conditions in Palestine, with people living behind giant walls, kept from their crops, with women dying in childbirth at checkpoints - perhaps maybe we might get an idea of why the Israelis are so hated.

But that can't happen so long as Jews control the media here. Al Jazeera is acertainly a superior choice for coverage of this event.

uh, anybody notice that some of the most outrageous accusations are coming from jewish names?

nobody named mohammed would be a credible source for truth in our media - so why would we listen to krauthammer, blitzer or rozen [with a z or s]

Neo - terrorism is relative. You sound like a Jew.

America is the terrorist - along with our creation Isreal. Muslims are trying to defend themselves against zionist expansion and ethnic cleansing.

You know this - but you don't care

A long-time Democrat, I no longer trust Democrats with the defense of the United States.

If we promise, really really promise, to kill a whole bunch more brown people -- I know we've slacked off wicked since Johsnon -- will you come back?

I no longer trust Democrats with the defense of the United States.

Huh??

What the fuck does Israel slaughtering brown people have to do with the defense of the USA?

However
I'll agree that Dubya is doing a good job,
on only one day during his administration
have terrorists flown airplanes into buildings.
Thank God for the republicants

"In 1950 this ex-liberal was drafted to serve during the Korean War -Truman was still president."

Yeah, and there are no problems on the Korean peninsula today because of manly men like you and their manly solutions.

Right.

Hey when are we gonna start calling the POWs KOW's??

In a war you CAPTURE each others soldiers.

I do not know how you KIDNAP an adult soldier.

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush

As articulate as George Bush.
As ethical as Karl Rove.
As visionary as Michael Brown.
As discreet as Robert Novak.
As virile as Rush Limbaugh.
As chaste as Bill Clinton.

"If you're a younger person, you ought to be asking members of Congress and the United States Senate and the president what you intend to do about it. If you see a train wreck coming, you ought to be saying, what are you going to do about it, Mr. Congressman, or Madam Congressman?" —George W. Bush

Quite Articulate eh?

What the fuck does Israel slaughtering brown people have to do with the defense of the USA?

There are enough Americans who think that this is the defense of the USA to elect a president.

I'm sure the Iranian President, Ahmadinejad, who has pledged to destroy a sovereign member of the UN was just kidding.

What reason would we have to think the Iranians involved?

Another of the mysteries that absolutely stumps the left.

A long-time Democrat, I no longer trust Democrats with the defense of the United States.

Posted by: mhr on July 15, 2006 at 12:06 PM | PERMALINK

Boy. Doesn't leave much to vote for then, does it? Perhaps the greens? 'Cos sure as hell the republicans don't know what they are doing. What a waste of life, limb and treasure. For what?

You take the repubnut route of mixing up national defence with fighting terrorism. If the UK had waded in on Eire for IRA actions in Northern Ireland, bombed Dublin and Shannon airports, killed innocent civilians, what do you think the reaction would have been in the US? Yet it was clear that the Eire government tolerated the IRA, allowed arms to move across the border. And, hey, where did the IRA get a lot of its funding? The good old USA. Not that the UK could do anything as a military power to the US that makes sense, but what if some Unionist nut blew up some Irish-Americans or the cathedral in Boston? Would the US have bombed London?

See how rediculous it is to respond to terrorism by destroying nation-states.

The way Israel runs its foreign policy does not run in parallel with the interests of the US. It's time to recognize that. If Israel wants all those dollars, then they should be made to bow to our long-term interests in the Middle East.

Which brings us back to the repubnuts who, having found all their assumptions and expectations were way wrong, have no long-term policy. Not even a short-term one in Iraq. Amazing!

Iran and Syria are sponsors of Hezbollah and Hamas and are obviously closely aligned with their actions, but whether they actively approved of the recent kidnappings appears to be unknown. And, for now anyway, unknowable.

And largely irrelevant, Israeli is clearly threatening Syria directly now, with the 72 hour deadline, and the fight will likely expand to Syria whether or not they were involved; once it does, whether they were involved directly in the kidnapping will only be of distant historical interest.

Iran as well will be drawn in at least politically, how they got there will matter little.

I agree with someone upthread who said that Israel's strategic interest here is to take UN attention off the settlements and more tightly weld it to the GWoT.

I think, however, that Israel is overplaying its hand -- even with Bush.

Iraq, instead of being a warning shot against the bows of non-state actors and "terrorist states," actually demonstrated the reverse -- that a relatively small, fanatic force could tie down a huge military into what is at very best a stalemate. I think Bush is realizing this as well; witness his recent modification of "pre-emptive doctrine" to include -- incoherently -- diplomacy. The wider war against Lebanon and, soon enough, Syria, is only going to unite these countries and drive out room for moderate opinion.

The NYT analysis piece yesterday makes that point eloquently. Hamas, Hezbollah and all the countries that stand with them are enduring a huge surge in popularity, even as civilians are being killed and civilian infrastructure destroyed.

What Israel will lose here in world opinion will not be compensated by added US support.

The US simply has nothing else it can offer the situation -- save support from a fanatic base that was already glued to Bush policy and Israel to begin with.

Bob

Really? I only see that as part of an unreferenced "blogger news network" story. Sort of reads like something from the debka files.

That was in reference to cmdicely.

If anyone is interested, here are a couple of Arab/Lebanese views. The Guardian article references Hizbullah as it is viewed in the West and by Arabs. The daily star is a plea for the US to stand by Lebanon.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1821036,00.html

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=17&article_id=73982

Puma Shoes

The recent "drone" attack appears nstead to have been an Iranian anti-ship missile. I think Iran's fingerprints are all over this diversion. And it is a diversion that they believe helps Iran in the near-term. I believe they have miscalculated--Iran has never been so close to being obliterated as it is now. They will need Arab assistance in keeping themselves attack free, thus their client anti-Israel attacks. But Israel plays for keeps, don't they? I think Iran's nutty government may have gone over the edge. One reason the Middle East has always been so unstable is that there has never been a dearth of violent leaders in each country (including Israel). This is precisely why GW Bush was so DREADFULLY WRONG for invading Iraq--Iran, the Palenstine question, and North Korea all required the U.S. to be locked and loaded. America is little able to respond except with extreme measures right now. And a word of warning to the lunatic in North Korea and Iran: you corner a superpower that can destroy your nation 100-times over, bad things happen. What about Bush makes you think you think he wouldn't push the red button? Reminds me of the preamble to the Monty Python tune "I like Chinese." Make no mistake, these are serious and frightening provocations. I sense region-wide calamity now in SW Asia and the Far East.

What Israel will lose here in world opinion will not be compensated by added US support.

World opinion is utterly meaningless and in any event criticism has been much softer than in the past. US opinion matters and they have our total support. Condi is doing her diplomatic thing as expected while instructing Bolton to smack the usual dwarfs at the UN around.

The fact is Israel is far better positioned economically and diplomatically. The GWOT has been a boon for them. They have closer and deeper economic ties with a larger number of allies as their expertise in anti-terror security is in high demand.

It was very interesting Merkel stood with GWB and supported Israel's right to defend itself. Ann has also been the most aggressive EU member regarding Iran. Germany is very clearly moving away from France which is and will remain paralyzed until Chirac is replaced.

The US simply has nothing else it can offer the situation -- save support from a fanatic base that was already glued to Bush policy and Israel to begin with.

That's all Israel needs. That base owns the WH and Congress. In 2006 there's much more to work with as there are a number of large and important allies a little tired of the terror game. Look to India for just one example.

What the US can and will do is point our this isn't a Israel-Arab spat over land. This is totally different than prior 'wars'. This is a Jewish-Islamic spat over religion. Egypt, Jordan and the 2/3s of Lebanon that is sane have nothing to do with his. These are islamic fundamentalist terror groups supported by Iran and Syria fighting a religious war.

Israel is part of the GWOT.

Hezbollah and Hamas must be wiped out. Even the countries in the region like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar are quitely pleased to see them in harms way and Syria and Iran taken down a peg. A nuclear armed Iran is a far bigger threat to them than to the US. A fully armed Hamas or Hezbollah, controlled by Iran, is absolutely a threat to all of their governments.

Lebanon at a minimum would love it if Israel came out and removed hezbollah and the threat from Syria.

Bob, you have it entirely wrong. Israel suffers little permanent damage and will see their security increase as both Lebanon and Iraq are strengthened and Syria is weakened. Iran will be even further isolated. The people in Gaza are as expected the worst off as their isolation from Israel is almost total. Unemployment might go to 90% and what little infrastructure exists is reduced to rubble. Clearly the wall with the West Bank will be finished.

rdw:

Only in WootenWorld could the shelling of suburban Beruit equate to "strengthening Lebanon."

What you don't know about the Mideast would cause google's search engines to crash.

Sheesh, even *Bush* was cautioning Israel not to destabilize Lebanon's government.

Bob

America is little able to respond except with extreme measures right now

This is absurd. The USA can walk and chew gum at the same time. We have 130,000 troops on the border of Syria and Iran with overwhelming Air Force and Naval power totally unfettered. We fought Germany, Japan and Italy at the same time. NK, Syria, Palestine and Iran combined are shells of Germany. They are shells of Japan. We fought both at the same time.

It would take the air force and Navy about 4 hours to cripple Syria and Iran at the same time by doing surgical attacks on their powerplants or their politcal leadership or their military leadership or all of the above.

It's doubtful this is the most prooductive option but it can be done more easily because we're in Iraq not less easily.

BTW: It's pretty clear Iraq will eventually be at war with Iran and Syri. The current govt can only survive if they kill all of the insurgents. We are seeing the expected sunni bloodbath now. At some point they will realize they'll run out of people 1st and ask for peace. Iran will try to stop that. Iraq will have to deal with them and Iraq have by far the more powerful military machine.

Remember, Iraq won't fight a counter-insurgency. Iran backs down or gets invaded.

Only in WootenWorld could the shelling of suburban Beruit equate to "strengthening Lebanon."

There's plenty of good stuff on lebanon. Try Michaeltotten, Austin Bay, Strategy page, etc.

I get NONE of my news from ABCnews.

Removing Hezbollah will not be easy. I think we all agree Hezbollah, Syria and Iran have been planning this for a very long time. What do you think Israel was during? They know how to plan. The attacks so far are against Hezbollah. They know where they live and work and are going after then there. Perfection can't happen so there will be collateral damage but the strategic goal will be to destroy those factions in Lebanon associated with Hezbollah and leave the peaceful 2/3's or so intact and as strong as possible.

Ideally when this is over the Lebanonese army will be able to extert control over ALL of it's territory keeping hezbollah, Syria and Iran out and living in peace with Israel.

I don't think Israel is quite ready to go that far but the Iran is so crazy they can be pushed. If Iran does something stupid and there are large jewish casualties the jew will wipe out southern Lebanon, assassinate the entire Syrian leadership and destroy their military capability.

Bob, Powerline is also a fabulous resource with a great many links. This post suggests an important change in sentiment inside Israel originally signalled by the election of Sharon. Powerline was instrumental in destroying Dan Rather.

Joel Mowbray reports from Israel, part 4

Joel Mowbray (email: jdmowbra@erols.com) filed his most recent dispatch from Israel within the hour:

JERUSALEM--With Israel flexing its military might simultaneously in Gaza and Lebanon, it might have seemed like a safe bet that the Islamic terrorists would be in retreat and scrambling to find some kind of face-saving exit. The keytusha rockets Hezbollah fired into the northern coastal town of Haifa says otherwise.

Toward the end of a closed-door journalists' roundtable tonight with former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, one of the reporters broke in to tell us that two rockets had just hit Haifa. We all realized the huge significance of this.

It's war.

Throughout the evening, people on the streets and in the coffee houses were discussing the latest events, and cabbies were tuned exclusively to news & talk stations for all the breaking news. Israelis are used to explosions and bloodshed, but this time, the front line is not in their restaurants or supermarkets. (Except for those in towns of rockets.)

It's entirely possible that the rockets sent into Haifa today were just a last, desperate gasp for Hezbollah before the terrorist organization folds. But that's not likely. Hamas and Hezbollah are both committed to the elimination of the Jews, and most of the members are ready to die for their cause. The new development is that more and more Israelis are willing to let them.

Joel's earlier dispatches are available here (Sunday), here (Tuesday) and here (yesterday). I should add that at a briefing tonight I was advised that at least one of the rockets that hit Haifa may have been fired by members of the Iranian Guard stationed in southern Lebanon. Hot Air cites reports on either side of the question here.

rdw:

Wooten, you don't understand how all of this shit plays directly into the hands of the religious fanatics.

Do you understand *why* they fire inaccurate, homemade missiles into northern and southern Israel and inflict minor damage? Do you think they intend to win some sort of tactical military victory over a force with state-of-the-art weaponry?

To provoke a disproportionate Israeli response, is why. And when Israel kills civilians and destroys livelihoods (as it inevitably does), then this pisses off the populace *at Israel*, not Hezbollah and Hamas. Don't you see how this works? The more punishing Israel's response, the more the radical groups' views are legitimated in the street, the more moderates look like pussies.

The moderate elements of Lebanon are also not the ones with arms. They are seen as not having the guts to defend their country from attack. And the only way Israel's strategy will work is if they manage to somehow surgically eradicate the Hamas/Hezbollah leadership. And that's just not possible without destroying their supporting infrastructure -- which is also civilian.

Israel, at the end of the day, is going to have to unilaterally pull back from the brink -- like it always does. There is no complete victory it can possibly win short of genocide.

Bob

Thomas Friedman of the NY Times sounds quite hawkish. He wants to see some sort of strong action taken against Iran and Syria:

The world needs to understand what is going on here: The little flowers of democracy that were planted in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories are being crushed by the boots of Syrian-backed Islamist militias who are desperate to keep real democracy from taking hold in this region and Iranian-backed Islamist militias desperate to keep modernism from taking hold.
It may be the skeptics are right: Maybe democracy, while it is the most powerful form of legitimate government, simply can't be implemented everywhere. It certainly is never going to work in the Arab-Muslim world if the United States and Britain are alone in pushing it in Iraq, if Europe dithers on the fence, if the moderate Arabs cannot come together and make a fist, and if Islamist parties are allowed to sit in governments and be treated with respect — while maintaining private armies.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640194844,00.html

". . . the jew will wipe out southern Lebanon, assassinate the entire Syrian leadership and destroy their military capability."

Pathetic.

rdw, go back to your silly little stories about how W is making all these trade deals in Asia that will usher in the golden age. Your analysis of politics in the ME is juvenile.

To provoke a disproportionate Israeli response, is why. And when Israel kills civilians and destroys livelihoods (as it inevitably does), then this pisses off the populace *at Israel*, not Hezbollah and Hamas. Don't you see how this works? The more punishing Israel's response, the more the radical groups' views are legitimated in the street, the more moderates look like pussies.

The world changed 9/11 my friend. This 'proportionate' crap is liberal gibberish. Who decides what is proportionate? Bad news for you. It's not the UN, France or Bill Clinton. The jews didn't elect Ariel Sharon because they're fans of proportunate responses. We didn't re-elected GWB for that same reason.

There's no such thing as a proportunate response to terrorists. They are cockroaches. They are to be exterminated.

Of course terrorists want a response and 90% of the time they know what it'll be. In Europe the response is appeasement. Osama thought it would be appeasement. He learned under GWB it's something different. Hamas and Fatah learned Ariel wasn't a big fan of appeasement. Now the new Israeli PM is being tested as we all knew he would be.

Hamas and Hezbollah are looking for a strong response with significant collateral damage followed by French and UN whinning followed by a 1,500 to 1 prisoner exchange.

Duh! We've only been here 1,000 times before.

So why does Israel play this game? So Hamas and Hezbollah can do the same thing next year and get free passed for another 3,000 terrorists?

It seems to me Bob Ariel just spent 3 years doing exactly what he wanted to do with the possible exception of killing Arafat. I happen to think keeping him alive while maximizing his humilitiaton was far more effective. Life in Gaza is horrendous. It was bad enough Hamas and Fatah had a small scale civil war going. Now they have no electricity, no pumps, no running water. Sharon made Arafat sit in his own shit, literally. So goes it in Gaza.

Where is the UN?

Israel has freedom of movement under GWB. Their PM knows he's being tested and can't be weak. Here's a statement from Israel:

Israeli officials said that their strategy was to diminish or destroy the power of Hezbollah, which has created “a state within a state” in southern Lebanon, and to ensure that the Lebanese army replaced Hezbollah on the border with Israel, as demanded by the United Nations.

“We’ve decided to put an end to this saga and to change the rules of the game whereby a terrorist organization that is part of the Lebanese government can push the region to the abyss,” said Isaac Herzog, a member of the Israeli security Cabinet.

Hezbollah has already lost. Bolton made clear at the UN this proportinate crap goes nowhere. The politics are set unless/until Syria or Iran rachet it up. Israel is going to take southern lebanon apart brick by brick if necessary. Any hezbollah leaders show their faces outdoors they'll get a missle crammed up their ass. Ditto for Hamas in Gaza. The folks in Gaza, not the freshest smelling place on a good day, get a bigger and bigger cesspool.

GWB and Israel are playing this as part on the GWOT. They have carte blanche. There isn't a single credible voice on the other side with anything to say. Annon, Chirac and Putin are clowns. No democrat will dare oppose GWB on this.

rdw, go back to your silly little stories about how W is making all these trade deals in Asia that will usher in the golden age. Your analysis of politics in the ME is juvenile.

That's trade deals in Asia AND Africa AND the Middle East AND South and Central America. Last week he inked his 5th deal in the middle east with Oman. What made you think it was just Asia?

My political analysis is astute. Conservatives have the huge advantage of a vibrant blogoshere, Foxnews and Talk radio. I don't pay any attentioned to that PC crap on ABC and CNN. Network news ratings are down 20% in 5 years to 21M for a reason.

If Assad is dumb enough to move aggressively against Israel he will in fact be a target. GWB set the standard in Iraq. If there's going to be a war kill the leadersnip 1st. If Assad is a target there's nothing Syria can do except hide him. We all know if there was ever a military confrontation the Syrians would be slaughtered.

There's no rocket science here. What liberals have failed to grasp is they look at this as a continuation of the Israeli-Arb wars since 1947. That's wrong. This is part of the GWOT.

ex-lib: Thomas Friedman of the NY Times sounds quite hawkish. He wants to see some sort of strong action taken against Iran and Syria:

let me guess....end times in 6-months?

rdw:

Wooten, let's just be clear on one thing: If there were any justice in the world, you'd be hit by a bus. You have the heart and soul of a Fascist, bro. You thrive on snickering at misery, and most of us find you contemptible for that -- not out of ideology, but of basic human decency, which you've decided has become somehow ... French or something.

Your strategic analysis is, of course, wishful thinking in the extreme. Bush's hands are tied; all he can do is caution restraint to Israel. It isn't a big-deal UN issue, because everybody knows the Hezbollah assault was an unprovoked attack on a target of opportunity.

None of that is the point.

Now if Ariel were PM and not in a coma, it's doubtful we'd be so close to the brink. Ariel didn't need to prove his security bona-fides, but Elhud and especially his defense minister do. So they're making a huge deal of the response, and that's driven, to a very important extent, by internal Israeli politics.

Sharon was smarter than this, though. He's the guy who pulled out of southern Lebanon. It would behoove Israel in the extreme to get sucked into that tar baby again. So what do they do? Bomb government buildings and civilian infrastructure.

The question is -- is this going to have an effect on Islamic terrorism? Is it going to make the "cockroaches" look like cockroaches -- or is it going to make them look like bold heroes?

The history of the region has given that answer time and again. The Lebanese government is too weak to take a strong stance against Hezbollah -- which is why it was never disarmed to begin with. Israel can fragment the government and cause anarchy -- but who gains there? Syria, of course.

Just like, you know, invading Iraq put Iran in the catbird's seat.

This game can't go on much longer, Wooten. The goodwill Israel has currently from being attacked will begin to evaportate if they're seen to have destabilized a government that only months ago was hailed by the Bush administration as groping its way towards democracy.

Bob

I've been reading lefty bloggers for a few years now, and will admit against interest to being pursuaded on one issue. I think the US and Israel have a faulty calculus on the issue of civilian casulties/collateral damage when responding to the new challenges. I first started thinking this way back when Clinton was running his focus-group directed campaign against the Serbs. In that case we pesky neocons mostly supported the goals of the war, but challenged the idea that 2500 civilian casualties from high altitude airstrikes was preferable to 3 dozen ground troop American losses. Of all the criticisms of our efforts in Iraq, which I still support, the one I'm most troubled by is the charge that GWB has not done the job in a way that we should have, preferring tax cuts and such to sincerely making the sacrifices of blood and treasure needed to prove our good faith.
Now Israel is lashing out at those sectors of Lebanese society that have not had the strength to take on Hezbollah rather than doing the dirty work of running sweeps with ground troops through the Shia neighborhoods. I do not agree with Kevin's point #2, that there is equivalence on both sides, but I do think that Israel's actions don't serve it's long-term interests.

minion of rove:

Thank you for an honest and unhypocritical response.

I wish you could talk some sense into your warmongering right-wing buddy rdw ...

Bob

" That's trade deals in Asia AND Africa AND the Middle East AND South and Central America. Last week he inked his 5th deal in the middle east with Oman."

You mean Oman the oppressive monarchy that has been listed by the U.S. State Department for human trafficking, for severe restrictions on freedom of the press, and for harassing human rights activists? Golly, I guess you're mighty proud of that, rdw. We're cozying up with dictatorships again. Gives a new meaning to "free trade."

"My political analysis is astute."

For a middle school boy.

"Conservatives have the huge advantage of a vibrant blogoshere, Foxnews and Talk radio."

Yep, they've cornered the market on contemporary fiction.

"I don't pay any attentioned to that PC crap on ABC and CNN. Network news ratings are down 20% in 5 years to 21M for a reason."

The truth gets in the way of your beliefs, doesn't it, bucko?

"GWB set the standard in Iraq."

Indeed. A standard unseen since Vietnam, for the US. Unseen since the USSR subdued Afghanistan.

"If there's going to be a war kill the leadersnip 1st."

You mean like the "leadersnip" of al Qaeda? Where is bin Laden buried, rdw? You mean like the "leadersnip" of Iraq? Last I heard, Saddam is still alive.

"This is part of the GWOT."

There is no "gobal war on terror" rdw. The fabled GWOT is nothing but a political fiction geared to keep the repubs in power. The thinking world hasn't fallen for it. Climb out of your parents' basement every now and then and smell the fresh air of reality.

...My political analysis is astute. Conservatives have the huge advantage of a vibrant blogoshere, Foxnews and Talk radio...

There's no rocket science here. What liberals have failed to grasp is they look at this as a continuation of the Israeli-Arb wars since 1947. That's wrong. This is part of the GWOT.

Posted by: rdw on July 15, 2006 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINK

Jesus effing Christ. That just about says it all.

Unfortunately, Bill Kristol, Wolfewitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al are about as astute as this turkey. And Condi Rice is way, way out of depth. And GWB? Enough said.

God help us all. I might have to recant on justifying the 2004 results as a good idea; leaving these pigs to swim in their own shit. I didn't think they could do any greater damage than they had already achieved. I am stupid, stupid, stupid.

This is truly the most incompetent US government since pre-WWII. Certainly the most dangerous ever!

The Lebanese government is too weak to take a strong stance against Hezbollah -- which is why it was never disarmed to begin with. Israel can fragment the government and cause anarchy -- but who gains there? Syria, of course.

Except Israel isn't going to fragment the govt. They're going to fragment hezbollah and Syria only if it interfers or tries to set back in.

I suspect, but do not know, GWB has made it clear to Assad he's not crossing that rubicon.

We agree lebanon is weaker than Hezbollah and Syria. We probably also agree GWBs only problem with Israel right now is they could unseat this government. Not because Syria might come in but because it's working. The deft touch is required to crush hezbollah and keep the rest of lebanon whole. Methinks the real key here is killing the leadership. They need to get off a couple/few successful assassinations and disrupt ground forces as much as possible.

The success in ending the Infatada was due to targeted assassinations. The leadership will send in the donkeys to die by the thousands. The leadership itself isn't remotely interested in dying. As soon as they start dying they learn to like peace.

Israel needs a series of high profile assassinations. The so-called goodwill you mention is worthless and they will lose it no matter what happens. The only goodwill that matters is GWBs. Right now Israel enjoys very deep support among conservatives. GWB had been far more supportive of israel in this instance than almost any other President in any other instance. He's been aggressively supportive of Israel and has strongly condemned the terrorists. Bolton is also being aggressively Bolton at the UN.

Conservatives are so radically anti-terror right now and pro-Israel they can do almost anything.
Only if they went recklessly our of character would they lose any of the goodwill that matters.

BTW: I do not enjoy or celebrate the death of innocents. Few of those in Gaza are innocents. They are openly supportive of terrorists. Like GWB I think their supporters are evil as well. They voted for a terrorist organization. They live in filth because that's what they've earned.

"Conservatives are so radically anti-terror right now . . . "

Conservatives are no more anti-terror than liberals. Conservatives are just radically terrorized. bin Laden certainly understands the conservative mind.

The fabled GWOT is nothing but a political fiction geared to keep the repubs in power. The thinking world hasn't fallen for it

Joel,

There is a GWOT. There is because conservatives say there is and we're calling the shots. Even if we really didn't think there was a GWOT we'd keep it just to piss you off. Fact is we think it and Hezbollah and Hamas are but two reasons. We are at war with radical islam and we're going to see them killed off.

The truth gets in the way of your beliefs, doesn't it, bucko?

Not the MSM truth. Not anymmore!

You mean like the "leadersnip" of al Qaeda? Where is bin Laden buried, rdw? You mean like the "leadersnip" of Iraq? Last I heard, Saddam is still alive.

Yes, Osama is alive. Hiding in some cave somewhere. So much for that brave front of a warrier seeking Martyrdom. AL Qaeda would be better off having him dead, as a symbol. It's good having Saddam alive as well. I'm not sure which image of him I liked. When they pulled him out of his rabbit hole or later when they were checking his hair for fleas, or when they were checking his teeth as if he were a horse, or when he was standing there in his cell in his BVDs. Bsides in keepnig him alive the Iraqi's will get a chance to hang him.

Conservatives are no more anti-terror than liberals.

Conservatives are far more anti-terror. We seek to aggressively kill them. You seek to get them legal representation and make sure we don't use guard dogs to upset them.

Amazingly there are still a core of liberals talking about this root-cause nonsense and poverty. That's just braindead. We've seen they're profiles. They're neither poor or uneducated. Many have been spoiled. Fortunetely this chatter is limited to America and European liberals and no one pays any attention to either.

"There is a GWOT. There is because conservatives say there is and we're calling the shots."

As I said, the "GWOT" is a fiction. Thanks for confirming it, rdw.

The reasoning displayed on your post also confirms my inference that you are a middle school boy.

"Conservatives are far more anti-terror."

Nah, just terrified.

Your fear, rdw, comes from ignorance. The antidote for fear is learning. When you get a little bit older, you will understand.

preferring tax cuts and such to sincerely making the sacrifices of blood and treasure needed to prove our good faith.

You are babbling. Tax cuts has nothing to do with any aspect of the war. They were an economic decision and didn't touch a single military aspect.

What sacrifice of blood are you talking about. Noit enough Americans died?

Now Israel is lashing out at those sectors of Lebanese society that have not had the strength to take on Hezbollah rather than doing the dirty work of running sweeps with ground troops through the Shia neighborhoods

Israel is taking on Hezbollah in ways that give it tactical advantages. Your recommendation would shift the advantage to the terrorists and would be stupid. Allow me to quote General Patton, "The idea is not to die for your country? The idea is to get the other guy to die for his"

You also seem to be saying Clinton should not have bombed the serbs comitting the atrocities because he was going to nail some civilians but should have sent ground troops in knowing many more americans would die. If he did that for that reason he would have been impeached if not assassinated. There are several agrments for Clinton to send in troops. That one is insane.

The fact is the Serbs elected that genocidal govt and they were warned constantly not to do it. There were on innocents. Clintons responsibility is to protect Americans not genocidal serbs.

IN Southern Lebanon the Shites elected a terrorist organization knowing exactly what they were doing. They know these terrorists are bringing weapons inot the area and preparing to kill jews. They are supporting them. They are complicit. They are not innocent.

My view on this for israel is if Hezbollah launches a missle into Israel to kill innocents then Israel should sent 10 back. If hexbollah sends another sent 10 back. If hezbollah will not make peace Israe should kill them as soon as possible.

rdw:

Well gee whiz, Wooten -- that's a definition of "innocence" worthy of Hitler or Stalin, isn't it. Killing innocents is immoral, so you define the problem away. That's classic dehumanize-your-enemy and it's all the more morally repulsive for being so patently disingenuous.

You really have no conception of how important family and tribal ties are in that part of the world, do you. Say some son of a Palestinian family gets radicalized and decides to take up arms against Israel. You really honestly expect his family to disown him, don't you. But they don't, of course -- and all of a sudden his family aren't "innocents" either, when the Israeli shells destroy their home.

And whether or not it's morally grotesque (and it is, of course), it's mind-bogglingly counterproductive. Because those kinds of collective reprisals only create more terrorism -- and collective reprisals -- in an endlessly vicious cycle. In the end, *nobody's* innocent -- including Israeli civilians who support the regime through their taxes and votes. Or at least, certainly no less guilty than the families of Palestinian guerillas ... You wonder what keeps terrorism going?

Your hope for assassination is the classic yen for a magic bullet. It, of course, never works well enough to justify the tactic. If Mossad had covert ops inflitrating Hezbollah and could, you know, actually assassinate the leaders without killing a dozen non-combatants along with them, it might have a chance of working. But you can't conduct assassinations at a distance without producing the kind of outrageous collateral damage that inspires new leaders to take their place.

You're also wrong about the moral courage of the leadership -- another dehumanization tactic that makes such indiscriminate killing easier for you to justify. It's not the Hamas and Hezbollah leaders who are the cowards -- it was the corrupt Fatah organization who talked a double game about terrorism while holding on to their cushy patronage positions. Hamas has much more moral credibility, and that's why they won the elections.

Of course, to you, it's all about the endless navel-gazing you do at the GOP base. Oh, conservatives are so excited about killing terrorists. Well, guess what, Wooten: Most sincere Christians don't support mass murder -- and that includes the mass killing of civilians -- inadvertent or otherwise. That solid base of yours has a chance of cracking if the war widens to Lebanon -- which it appears to have every chance of doing, with the shelling of the airport and southern Beruit.

The clock is ticking, Wooten. You had better hope Elhud pulls back from the brink soon before this spirals out of control. Not all rock-ribbed conservative Republicans are as filled with bloodlust and Arab hatred as some in the leadership appear to be.

Bob

...The deft touch is required to crush hezbollah and keep the rest of lebanon whole. Methinks the real key here is killing the leadership. They need to get off a couple/few successful assassinations and disrupt ground forces as much as possible...

BTW: I do not enjoy or celebrate the death of innocents. Few of those in Gaza are innocents. They are openly supportive of terrorists. Like GWB I think their supporters are evil as well. They voted for a terrorist organization. They live in filth because that's what they've earned.

Posted by: rdw on July 15, 2006 at 7:30 PM | PERMALINK

Nice deft touch so far. I'll call it the deaf touch.

It stuns me that the Israelis inparticular seem to have no idea of the effects on ghettoing a people, or the constant threatof violence and the resulting mind set. They have their own history: the Warsaw uprising, Igrun, Stern Gang and all the other terrorist organizations that spawned to protect their interests.

Hizbullah was born from Israel's previous brutality in Lebanon. Remember what Sharon did? It won't go away because they do the same thing again, or worse.

People like rdw and this administration have no idea how to control themselves or situations. There is no progressive escalation, or thought behind their actions. They have no conception of possible consequences. They reach instinctively for the trigger and, frankly, do not care a damn, not a jot, for any innocent lives lost.

If only they had to live directly with the consequences of what they sow.

Frankly, I am sickened by the lack of any moral base in the extreme right of the Republican party, the so-called neocons.

Your fear, rdw, comes from ignorance.

I read Charles Krautenhammer, Victor Davis Hansen and Mark Steyn every day. I also watch Fox and when I can listen to laura Ingram, Bill Bennett, Rush, Michael medved and Hugh Hewlett. I also peruse powerline, national review, instapndit, polipundit, realclearpolitics and timblair. Obviously theres kevin Drum and I can't miss the Huffington post. I love reading all of those hollywood drama queens in their misery. Life is so bad I don't know how they can get out of bed in the morning. I love it!

BTW: I live 20 miles outside philly near horse country and the amish. I'm as safe as safe can be. My kids are close by. I fear for our brave soldiers. I am quite safe because of them.

if you wish to label me 'scared' as if I'm supposed to be insulted go right ahead. They tried that in the last elections cycle. Your 44 Senators is the lowest number since 1928. keep up the good work.

rdw:

Wooten, for the record I don't think you're scared.

I think you're sociopathic.

There's a difference.

Bob

"I read Charles Krautenhammer, Victor Davis Hansen and Mark Steyn every day. I also watch Fox and when I can listen to laura Ingram, Bill Bennett, Rush, Michael medved and Hugh Hewlett. I also peruse powerline, national review, instapndit, polipundit, realclearpolitics and timblair."

As I said, your fear comes from ignorance. Now we know the sources of your ignorance. Thanks for confirming my post.

Oh, and I don't believe for a second that you have kids. You 'are' a kid. You write and think like one.

I don't label you 'scared' to insult you, rdw. You are a frightened little boy, and desperately wish that everyone would share your paranoid fanasies. I pity you.

Joel:

For the record, Wooten (rdw), who I've conversed with for months, is a fiftysomething retired Verizon accountant with two daughters who lives outside of Philly.

His viewpoint is all the more frightening for being so solidly middle class.

Bob

Bob, I'm familiar with rdw's persona, his obsession with trade deals and political partisanship as a substitute for rational discussion of important issues. Have you verified his identity, or you just accepted what he tells you?

He certainly reasons with the alacrity of a 14 year old.

Israelis inparticular seem to have no idea of the effects on ghettoing a people

What are you babbling about? You are absolutely clueless. If Gaza and the West bank are ghettos it's because arafat made them ghettos. Before Arafat came there as a result of Oslo the people in Gaza and the West Bank could come and go into Israel freely. Most of them worked there.

The UN and EU and USA had been pouring money into them even still. They were ripped off by their own leadership. Hanas and Fatah are not capable of managing a civilized society. Their school curriculum is to kill jews. Even the arabs in israel want no parts of the arabs from Gaza. They know only terror and suicide.

Israel has no choice but total isolation.

Remember what Sharon did?

Ariel did nothing except enforce peace. If you are talking about that trumped up war charge thing you are a dool. It's classic that libs would label Ariel a war criminal and arafat a nobel peace prize. As Menachim Begin described it, "arab kills arab and it's the jews fault.'

Arafat was a turd. No one stole more than he.

There is no progressive escalation,

Obviously there is. This thing is just getting started. Israel just called up their reserves. They have to report and get organized and get their battle plans set. if there wasn't progressive escalation southern lebanon would be unpopulated now.

Just wondering though. How did FDR use progressive escalation?

Joel:

I've been a hobbyist debater since the BBS days. I trust my intuition, as it's rarely been wrong. When you post day in and day out with someone, character tends to come out. It's exceedingly difficult to maintain a false persona for any extended period of time. Most true dissemblers have been pretty easy to spot.

Plus, it's not difficult at all to imagine the guy. You know ... retired, tons of time to read all the hardcore rightwing blogs and listen to ClearChannel radio. He debates exactly like what he says he is -- an intrasigent Reagan conservative whose ideological a-priori assumptions are validated at every turn by the echo chamber he chooses to spend most of his time in.

So then he comes over here to get his snark jollies by repeating verbatim all the arguments he just read on InstaPundit and heard on Hannity.

You really don't need to explain this behavior with an unprovable ad-hominem characterization.

Bob

Thanks, Bob, for the insights.

I got a chuckle out of this, though:

"You really don't need to explain this behavior with an unprovable ad-hominem characterization."

Pot, kettle, black, etc.

Joel:

Oh what ... because I called him a sociopath above?

Hey, nobody's perfect :)

Bob

Joel:

Well I have no vested interest in arguing that Wooten's a literal sociopath; I have no idea. But I don't think he's a bedwetter conservative. We've seen those type on here -- especially when the discussion revolves around the NSA and civil liberties. They're the sorts who will shred the Bill of Rights and elevate the presidency to an imperial throne in a microsecond if it's just keep us all safe fwom th' TEWWWOOOWWISTS, Mommy !

Wooten's a different breed of cat. He's what I'd call a Machiavellian nihilist. Everything -- literally every blessed thing in the universe, including stomping on puppies and biting the heads off of kittens -- is judged at the end of the day according to how it affects the political fortunes of GWB and the GOP. Nothing else matters.

This has a *metaphoric* relation to socipathy, because just as a sociopath is very skillful at creating a smooth false front to hide severely anti-social impulses, Wooten's political arguments are likewise a false and empty shell. They have no meaning in themselves; they express no vision of a greater good. Kill as many civilians as you want, provided it makes the GOP look strong on terrorism.

And this is a disease that has affected much of the national GOP. But when one loses one's core values in the pursuit of victory at any cost, the false front eventually starts to peel and we see the ... Jack Abramoff ... lurking underneath.

This is precisely why a guy like Ralph Reed's having so much trouble in an election that should have been a walk. Lieberman, too ...

Bob

...I read Charles Krautenhammer, Victor Davis Hansen and Mark Steyn every day. I also watch Fox and when I can listen to laura Ingram, Bill Bennett, Rush, Michael medved and Hugh Hewlett. I also peruse powerline, national review, instapndit, polipundit, realclearpolitics and timblair....

Posted by: rdw on July 15, 2006 at 8:13 PM | PERMALINK

You can read and listen to all that crap with a critical mind today and get up and do it again tomorrow? Wow! I'd say you'd have to be ignorant to do that.

Me, clueless!?

Israel has always kept control of the ingress and egress of Palestinians, not only to Israel. It was a condition of the Gaza withdrawal to maintain same. And since then Israel has made it damn near impossible to have anything like normal import or export of goods, most of which go through Israel -- and did before.

And I suppose the Palestinians are building the walls and splitting and isolating their communities themselves.

Israel has been extremely pernicious in West Bank land sequestration, water rights and Arab access to their own land. They've also stymied Palestinian development at every turn. and East Jerusalem . . ?

Noone is going to disagree about Arafat's and Fatah's corruption. That seems to be the main reason why the Palestinians voted in Hamas. But they get kicked in the head for that. What other choice did they have?

I would like to see them develop, get some other political parties. Israel does not.

It's a long history. But it's not really chicken and egg. If the Zionists had not wanted or been allowed to return, this situation would not be happening. The British helped this and the US gave it added impetus after WWII. The situation is what it is, but, unlike Kevin Drum, I do not beleive it is intractable.

Progress has been made both times the US president has been fully engaged. Carter and Clinton. GWB has allowed the present backsliding.

Israel's policies are non-productive. If you're interested, Rommel wrote a paper about occupation and insurrection before WWII. He believed disproportionate use of force and inflicting punishment on parties not involved in the crime to be counterproductive. That has been one strategy in every successful counter-insurgency these last 70 years.

Now, do you think the Israeli military and politic is ignorant or wilfully disregards world experience? And why?

And you think the Israeli army and Sharon's hands are clean? That it is a lie? Clueless!

On the other hand, the fact that the Lebanese have been able to keep a government together that involves the other parties involved in the atrocity helps to prove that reconciliation rather than continued murder might lead to better things.

Just a thought, clueless!

And I love your definition of progressive escalation. Mobilize. Force and then more force! Woweee! And who said war is the result of failed diplomacy. You don't believe in it . . . at all! Clueless!

Well, Bob, I was about to get off the bus when I read this:

"I trust my intuition, as it's rarely been wrong."

Experience teaches me that folks who trust their intuition have fools for advisors. Their insights seldom repay the effort.

I'm not yet prepared to make an exception in your case, but you certainly have the most elaborate, detailed and fully differentiated intuition I've encountered in awhile. It rings true, and above all, it's entertaining.

Thanks.

bob, joel,

Lighten-up!

One only resorts to making it personal when one can't handle the demands of the debate.

Speculating on a persons fear is sophmoric. Especially in the USA. We've got a much, much, much better chance of getting hit by lightening than by a terrorist. Fear is a demonstrably silly theory.

I can understand the frustration. The transition from Slick Wille to the cowboy is dramatic. Could the two men be more different? Slick willie could hold seminars on 5 different sides of any subject. GWB can do 3 minutes on one side, at most.

Mr. Bill was Mr. Nuance with a dazzling mind and a silver tongue. The Europeans were impressed. Liberals felt good about themselves. GWB has none of that. He's a staunch, proud conservative and the Europeans can't stand him. You are embarrased by that. What others thing is very important. Liberals do not feel good about themselves.

Then he wins a 2nd election by almost 4M votesd and the Europeans wonder how pathetic you are. This is a man who dumped Kyoto and the ABM treaty. And you STILL could not beat him. Worse he actually acts the part. He rules with more control and power than Slick Willie. Obviously not because he's better. You are that much weaker.

Worse is he gets his way most often. He gets his wars. He gets his supreme court. He gets his defense secretary. He gets his tax cuts. He fired yor favorite cabinet official. He kept Karl Rove. He kept Dick Cheney. He goes to Japan. He goes to India. He goes to Australia. Now he goes to Germany.

Best of all he fully supports Israel.

I was just in the huffington post. It's a riot. That has got to be the most depressing website in th world. Her hollywood crowd has to be the worlds largest consumers of prozac. They appear suicidal. I remember a few of them promising to leave if GWB were elected. I understand tongue-in-cheek and I knew Alec wasn't leaving. But reading these folks one can't imagine why they stay? This is the worst time ever to be an American.

That's got to suck getting up in the morning.

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The recent "drone" attack appears nstead to have been an Iranian anti-ship missile. I think Iran's fingerprints are all over this diversion. And it is a diversion that they believe helps Iran in the near-term. I believe they have miscalculated--Iran has never been so close to being obliterated as it is now. They will need Arab assistance in keeping themselves attack free, thus their client anti-Israel attacks. But Israel plays for keeps, don't they? I think Iran's nutty government may have gone over the edge. One reason the Middle East has always been so unstable is that there has never been a dearth of violent leaders in each country (including Israel). This is precisely why GW Bush was so DREADFULLY WRONG for invading Iraq--Iran, the Palenstine question, and North Korea all required the U.S. to be locked and loaded. America is little able to respond except with extreme measures right now. And a word of warning to the lunatic in North Korea and Iran: you corner a superpower that can destroy your nation 100-times over, bad things happen. What about Bush makes you think you think he wouldn't push the red button? Reminds me of the preamble to the Monty Python tune "I like Chinese." Make no mistake, these are serious and frightening provocations. I sense region-wide calamity now in SW Asia and the Far East.

"You are embarrased by that."

rdw, your psychic insights are every bit as reliable as your spelling. Both suck.

Do play again sometime.

Progress has been made both times the US president has been fully engaged. Carter and Clinton. GWB has allowed the present backsliding

Carter made progress mainly for excellent timing. Eqypt could no longer afford war. It could not possible win and was able to get it's lands back and a very nice bribe.

Clinton was a total disaster. Everything he did was a disaster. He left a totally failed state on israel's doorstep. Arafat wold recognize israel in english and thwn go home and deny it in arabic and he was able to pull it off. He continued to support terrorism and rob his people blind and was never, ever a negotiating partner. Slick Willie was badly outslicked.

BTW: The US had little to do with the creation of Israel. Credit goes to the Europeans for the entire mess. We haven't failed the middle east ever. Their failures are their own. Clinton was a fool but it's not his fault Arafat was such a slime.

Israel is not at war with anyone because of the USA. They are defending themselves. The terrorist are not at war because of the USA. They are are war because their burchers and it's all they know. It's the liberal way to hold everyone but the killer accountable for the killing.

We are not responsible they are.

Now, do you think the Israeli military and politic is ignorant or wilfully disregards world experience? And why?

It's rather cheeky for you to suggest the Israeli military is ignorant. They are one of the most successful in the history of man. Do you really think it's possible for you to lecture them on somethng they did not already know?

You've constucted a strawman. Israel does not intentionally kill civilians. That would be hamas and hezbollah. The more defenseless the better.

Israel has survived and flourished in one of the nastiest evnironments ever for 60 years and you don't think they understand what they're doing? That's an ignorant assertion. They know exactly what they are doing. You can disagree and they mught be wrong but they know what it is they are doing.

Rommel was a good general but by no means the desert fox of his reputation. Patton was clearly his superior. He's hardly the expert on middle east politics. Patton would without question pound Hezbollah from lebanon into Syria into Iran all the way to Tehran.

"Clinton was a total disaster. Everything he did was a disaster. He left a totally failed state on israel's doorstep. Arafat wold recognize israel in english and thwn go home and deny it in arabic and he was able to pull it off. He continued to support terrorism and rob his people blind and was never, ever a negotiating partner. Slick Willie was badly outslicked."

In trying to puzzle out this bizzarre passage, I found this useful:

"This has a *metaphoric* relation to socipathy, because just as a sociopath is very skillful at creating a smooth false front to hide severely anti-social impulses, Wooten's political arguments are likewise a false and empty shell. They have no meaning in themselves; they express no vision of a greater good."

Well, he's supporting your interpretation, Bob. Your credibility is gaining.

"Patton would without question pound Hezbollah from lebanon into Syria into Iran all the way to Tehran."

BWAHAHAHAHA!

With what Army?

You can read and listen to all that crap with a critical mind today and get up and do it again tomorrow? Wow! I'd say you'd have to be ignorant to do that.

It's got to burn your ass the MSM is still in free fall.

I happened to see the 1st post on Powerline after the Dan Rather TANG story. I don't watch CBS bit I knew enough before the show aired they had investigated TANG for over 5 years and just came up with magic evidence. I knew is hand to be a scam. When powerline put it out there, "these may be frauds" I knew for certain Dan was nailed.

It was a kick to know with 12 hours that it was a 99% certainty that Dan not only had a fraud but it was a really, really bad fraud. It was a crayon copy fraud.

It was like being at a two-week seminar watching the MSM handle the story (as little and as confusing as possible) versus the new alternative media. The power of the intrnet is truly remarkable.

One of the Powerline lawyers knew from his work a high level documentation expert. He wrote the typefacefor word perfect. We're talking cream of the cream. Before the show was finished on the west coast powerline had called this guy and asked him to take a look. CBS has posted it on their website. A glance told him it was written on a word processor not a typewriter. He calles Powerline back and tells them he's 99% sure it's a fraud ad he'd bee 100% sure something the next day.

I don't have the energy to list the pitiful aspects of this fraud. Kevin Drum didnt even focus on the piece of paper. He trashed Rather for using it knowing the sequence of discovery. Dan had to know it was Garbage because of where it came from.

Bottom line is it took the alternatve Media less that 2 hours to expose Dan Rather. Within 24 they had it totally mailed. Only ABC covered it initially and gingerly. CBS and Dan Rathr stood by it for 2 week before CBS quit. Dan STILL insists it's the real deal.

I DON'T KNOW how many frauds the MSM carried out from the 1950's thru 2000. But those days are over. This was a pitiful example of a total lack of ethics and integrity. Rather should have been fired immediately but seeing him twist slowly in the wind and walk off in humiliation was cool.

By all means trash my sources. But hope your favorite candidates don't. As Kerry learned there's no MSM to protect him. He also learned not to exaggerate a thing or that other media will find out and kill you with it.

If you remember the Rather story it was a flurry despite the MSMs hopes to ignore it. The very next day Fox and talk radio and the blogs were carrying the story 24x7. The very next day the newspapers all had it led by the WSJ. Every little bit of news started a new round of discussion. Then Dan stupidly dragged everything on for two weeks.

That's the day the MSM lost 'it',

You can have those MSM frauds. I will alawys be better informed.

BTW: kerry lied thru his teeth about Xmas in Cambodia.

… If Gaza and the West bank are ghettos it's because arafat made them ghettos. …Ariel did nothing except enforce peace…. rdw 8:32 PM

Israel maintains 50+ checkpoints in the West Bank [12]. As such, movement restrictions are also placed on main roads traditionally used by Palestinians to travel between cities, and such restrictions have been blamed for poverty and economic depression in the West Bank [13]

Sharon did nothing that worked for peace. He was a war criminal because of the massacres of Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. Begin was a notorious terrorist who was responsible for the massacre of Deir Yassin . Another Israeli PM, Yitzhak Shamir, planned assassinations while head of the Stern Gang
" “He is generally believed to have been responsible for planning the ... murder of the UN mediator for Palestine, Count Folke Bernadotte in September 1948.”

Wooten's political arguments are likewise a false and empty shell. They have no meaning in themselves; they express no vision of a greater good."

Clearly wrong. Clinton was a disaster. He left office with a disasterous infatada underway and an Israeli election whereby a war criminal and the left's most hated jew was elected in the biggest landslide in israeli history.

This is full of meaning AND very positive. 1st off consevatives loved Sharon AND time has proven us correct in our assessment.

Admittedly Sharon had no time for Europans or American liberals but he was a very consequential PM. He defeated the Hamas terrorists and exposed Arafat as a lying, stealing fraud. His program of targeted assassinations was hugely successful and historic. It's now the model for counter-insurgency .

Poor Bill, no legacy here. It's Ariel's.

I will alawys be better informed. rdw 11:19 PM

Holiday in Cambodia
The "Christmas Eve" attack on Kerry is cheap and almost certainly wrong.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Aug. 23, 2004, at 7:04 PM ET

Whereas Bush, the prancing princeling of privilege with his "heroic" service to his country is a coward for running and hiding like a scared rabbit on 9-11

mike, do you read your own sources?

Following World War I, Gaza became part of the British mandate for Palestine. After the first Arab Israel war in 1948, Egypt took control over Gaza and its surrounding area. The Egyptians never accepted the inhabitants as citizens of Egypt and prohibited them from leaving Gaza Strip. This caused great density and poverty in the Gaza Strip. Israel captured the city and the Gaza Strip during the 1967 Six Day War, and Gaza remained under Israeli administration for the next 27 years.

Mikem you are in over your head,

The "Christmas Eve" attack on Kerry is cheap and almost certainly wrong.
By Fred Kaplan

kerry's own staff admitted it was wrong as did Brinkley, his biographer. Contrary to Freds report Brinkley said if he was there is was accidental.

But duh! It HAD to be wrong.

kerry's story was he was sitting in Cambodia on xmas Eve 1968 listening to President Nixon tell Americans the US was not in Cambodia. Fred's prining of that quote is selective. He was talking about president Nixon.

He told this story because this was a key point in his life. It's when he decided to become politically active and protest the war.

One little itty bitty problem. Nixon wasn't President in 1968.

The dumb bastard can't lie. He's too stupid. Worse, the MSM suck-ups never caught it. He told this story several times, on tape, and the press never catches on. Then he runs for President and BAM!

To compound this ignorance his press buddies told them to ignore it and they'd cover it up. All he had to do was say I was cofused on the holiday.

He was a war criminal because of the massacres of Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut.

He was not a war criminal although liberals still think he was. It has to craw right up Clintons ass one of his legacies was the landslide victory of Ariel Sharon.

This incident is now more famous for Menachim Begins great line. "Arabs kill Arabs and it's the jews fault.

It's so typically liberal to blame killings on someone, anyone other than the actual killers.

Israel maintains 50+ checkpoints in the West Bank [12]. As such, movement restrictions are also placed on main roads traditionally used by Palestinians to travel between cities, and such restrictions have been blamed for poverty and economic depression in the West Bank [13]

mike, I have no doubt israel's security measures are repressive and economically damaging. Too bad for them they harbor so many terrorists. Those checkpoints were not there until the terrorism started.

Th palestinains chose this path. They support terror. There is a price to be paid. The worst part is they're stil getting poorer while Israel is booming. There will be a security fence in the West bank and even further isloation. It's so bad the Plestinians inside Israel have no time for those outside. They have moved on and are far, far more successful.

rdw -- "Patton would without question pound Hezbollah from lebanon into Syria into Iran all the way to Tehran."

And McCarthy would have already nuked Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Russia in a preemptive strike and China just in case.

What's your point?

Patton was always a general who needed close control from Eisenhower.

As to the better general, that wasn't the point. It was about a perceptive, generally humane and accepted as exceptional general writing a paper for the German Army concerning occupation and insurgency. He observerd the Geneva Conventions and recommended doing so more in the way that they are written today than in the strict lines of the '30s. It's more about psychology than force. Humans haven't changed much in 80 years. A point totally lost on the repugnuts.

However, as generals go: the allies had Ultra intelligence and did not allow Rommel any fuel to be delivered to N. Africa over the El Alamein period. After Torch, the Germans fought on 2 fronts with inferior forces. Personally I haven't read much about the Ultra advantage accrued in 1944-45, but Montgomery accrued a significant advantage in 1942. I cannot believe that Patton's was not similar or greater.

Both had some of the common attributes of a great general, but Patton had some severe personallity flaws. The two worst of which are the hubris that led to significant losses leading to Hammelburg in '45, and his idea of expelling the Soviets from Eastern Europe. We'll try to forgive him slapping up a couple of soldiers, his troops murdering some POWs because of his statements, and some other "incidents". Rommel certainly exceeded him in being able to work with inferior forces and extraordinary mobility and flexibility, let alone his successes when in the accendant.

Beyond that, Rommel probably made his hardest decision as a disciplined, professional German soldier to risk and ultimately lose his life after he came to the conclusion that Hitler had to be removed.

Pity you can't come to the same conclusion about GWB.

Honestly, it's not worth arguing with someone who believes that FOX News is "fair and balanced", or that Rush L is anything more than a self-inflated demagogue who says, from a position of ignorance, what he knows a certain faction wants to hear. He would have been a perfect sidekick to Goebbels. If you can't differentiate between tilt and bias, whether from the left or right, to find an area where truth might lie, if you can't admit that the present administration has a narrow and misguided view of the world that has already been proved incorrect by their actions and the fallout, I despair. I'm done with your stupidity.

What's your point?

Patton was by far the more outstanding general. Rommel was over-rated. This the citation of rommel is not impressive.

Patton was always a general who needed close control from Eisenhower.

Patton was the Allies best tactical field commander and military strategist. He was also a big mouthed ass. It was the latter that required control.

...It's so bad the Plestinians inside Israel have no time for those outside. They have moved on and are far, far more successful.

Posted by: rdw on July 16, 2006 at 12:03 AM | PERMALINK

Particularly those that have been/are being pushed out of East Jerusalem. They're certainly "moving on".

And those within Israel who have family within the West Bank and Gaza? And those Israleis who have chosen to marry Palestinians within the occupied territories who are not allowed to live together within Israel, have they all "moved on" too?

Your ignorance is all-enveloping. The repugnut: the real facts are the facts that fit my argument. Do you just make it all up as you go along or do you have any cites for this garbage?

If you can't differentiate between tilt and bias, whether from the left or right, to find an area where truth might lie, if you can't admit that the present administration has a narrow and misguided view of the world that has already been proved incorrect by their actions and the fallout, I despair. I'm done with your stupidity

See ya! But don't dispair. Life is too dhort.

Fox is fair and balanced and that's because we do know their point of view. Those in the MSM pretending not to have a POV are frauds. Chris Matthews, Tim Russert and George Stenaphopolos were all prominant political aids. Objective my ass. You'd have to be a moron to buy that.

Dan Rather wanted GWB so bad look at what he did. But libs will tell you he's objective.

Rush is an entertainer and extremely politically savvy. He is the single most influencial media member by far. He is influencial because he is honest with his audience and about he is. He's far from objective.

This administration has a sober and incredibly strategic world view. They are far ahead of you. Dumping Kyoto, the ABM treaty and pulling all of our troops from Europe, and some from SK and Japan was shrewd. Working agressively to improve relations with Japan, SK, India and Pakistan was brilliant.

In the not too distant future the worlds most powerful military allaince will be the USA-JAPAN-India arc. As the largest and richest democracies with a surprising match of common interests (GWOT, China, Trade)the strengthening of these relationhips is brilliant. Japan is the world 4th largest defense spender and we're encouraging them to dump article 9 of their constitution to remove all militry restrictions. We also support a full seat on the Security council and better trade.

You are probably aware of the very significant moves with india with nuclear power at the top of the list. India shares a GWOT problem as well as fear of China. They are opening their economy and need access to US markets. They are already powerful and will only get more powerful.

The move to make NATO a shell was also briliant. As Rummy restated US foreign policy, "missions will shape the coalition. We will NOT allow coalitions to define our missions. We not go alone and seek partners on a case by case situation. Afghanistan was a US operation expanded to a NATO situation because that structure works and the participants are ued to NATO. We are no longer limited by NATO politics. If we agree with the mision we join it. If we do not we don't join.

Here's one more interesting scenario. Germany is not moving behind Japan in terms of goals. GWB would not support a security council seat for Schroeder. Merkel is a completely different leader. Today she stood with GWb on Isreal holding the opposite position as France. She's alsO beeen the most aggressive on iran. IF Germany does as it's leaders suggest Germany WOULd BE A WELCOME ADDITION TO THE USA-INDIA-JAPAN COALIIION.

The worlds largest democracies should be the premier allaince. It will be a far superior forum than the UN for discussing and settling the worlds issues.

The UN is useless. The EU is useless. NATO is more useful now that they can't tie us down and far less expensive.

This is difficult for liberals used to the status quo with liberal Europe but it's a shrewd move at the right time. Nations have permanent interests not permanent friends. We don't have similar interests with France and much of western europe. Tony Blair has been aces on GWOT but worse than bad onm social policy. Western is also very low growth, high inflation, high debts, taxes and liabilities with demographic and social problems.

It's time to move away from Western europe taking all troops out. They can pay for and manage their own defense. Meanwhile we focus on new alliances with an Asia focus.

This has all been subtle but important. GWB has transformed US foreign policy and the rotation is all but complete. The democrats still haven't figured it out.

Do you just make it all up as you go along or do you have any cites for this garbage?

The cites for Palestinians public opinion inside Israel was from a professional poll some weeksago detailing deep frustration with the suicide bombers who often take out Israeli arabs with jews. A majority of Israeli arabs support the fence and wish to preserve their econmic and security success. They are substantially better off and safer. What they see are their cousines incubated in hatred for all things jewish including arabs working with them. A not small number of israeli arabs have been misidentified as jewish and get accused of being collaborators. Under Aarafat the population has become so radicalizes many view israeli arabs as traitors. It's also been 50 years.

As time goes on the separtion only gets deeper.

rdw --
I think you honestly believe what you type. If that is so, I have to say it is so grounded in inaccuracy and untruth it doesn't border on delussional, it is immersed.

You know, you trolls are so intellectually lazy. You don't answer any of the questions asked of you. Also, sorry. The point about a cite is that I can look it up and check relevance/authenticity. Not take your rather biased word for it. Ignorant git.

Here are some for you. Not so rosey for the Israeli Arabs. Not that I would dispute that they are better off than in the ghettoes. With Israel continually dirupting your economic life, it's probably hard to make a living.

U of Haifa poll, Israeli Arabs:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=25694

Majority of Israeli Jews want Israeli Arabs to leave:
http://www.payvand.com/news/06/may/1144.html

Israeli Jewish racism to Arabs:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

Arab workers face discrimination:
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0152.htm

Budget discriminates against Arabs:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/08/12/isrlpa9228.htm

Israel's shunned Arabs watch poll with unease:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/israels-shunned-arabs-watch-poll-with-unease/2006/03/23/1143083906255.html

Palestinian-Arab population fraud/Standard & Poor's eco rating/more
http://israel-politics.tripod.com/blog/

If you search Israeli official statistics and papers, in the ones I've found it is really noticeable that they try not to parse out Arab figures. Must be that the bush administration learned something from them in dissembling. If someone has a better source, please contribute. Here's some Israeli economic figures:

------------------------Arab-------------Jew
Empl't '89-----------68%-------------62%
Empl't '03-----------39%-------------57%
med inc/hr-----------29.5------------44-----shekel
median school--------10.4------------more- -years
population-----------15-19.5%--------83-78%-depends if you include EastJerusalem
Knesset rep'n---------9 ------------- 111 -- of 120 Knesset seats

What is really noticeable about your analysis is that all the fault lies on one side. There is no room for any guilt on the Israeli side. Very interesting. And a clear indication of bias.

You know, you pick what you want to believe, same as the neocons. That's what makes their policies so dangerous. They're not grounded anywhere close to reality. Like you.

Save us from the damage they do!

rdw epitomizes the white trash viewpoint ... which is clearly underrepresented here. she's doing a great service.

rdw: BTW: kerry lied thru his teeth about Xmas in Cambodia.

"I continued flying with my unit for the next several years." - Page 54 of George W. Bush's "A Charge to Keep"

lie

rdw: BTW: kerry lied thru his teeth about Xmas in Cambodia.

"I continued flying with my unit for the next several years."

Isn't that cool how that worked out? Did you see Dan Rather slither off last week? How about J Kerry going ballistic when McConnel took his get out of Iraq in '06 proposal and made it a resolution and forced the Senate to vote on it? Hey, 6 votes ain't bad for John.

All's well than ends well.

What is really noticeable about your analysis is that all the fault lies on one side.

Israel is not perfect. NO state or people are. The problem with your numbers is you had to compare Arabs in Israel with Arabs in Gaza. That's the comparison I was making. Those in Israel have a far, far better life with a prosperous future.

When terrorism is involved I am one-sided and will always be one-sided. The intentional killing of little girls cannot ever be supported. There's no talk of root causes when terror is involved. The only option is to kill the terrorists and those assisting them.

BTW: the root cause thing is stupid. Most terrorists are fairly well off andwell educated. This is about radical islam. We are in a GWOT with islamic fundamentalism.

rdw epitomizes the white trash viewpoint

Gee, that hurt my feelings. You're a twit.

Gee, that hurt my feelings. You're a twit.
Posted by: rdw

white trash has feelings? since when?

white trash has feelings? since when?

Ask James Carville. Isn't he the one who called Paula Jones trailer park trash to cement her decision not to settle and keep her lawsuit going?

I think he is. It's funny when you look back and see how poorly the smartest man in the world played that cycle. He passed on a deal early on to keep it out of court and then pissed her off. He decides to testify and gets caught lying. He gets impeached, losses his law license and is voted the president most like chester the molester.

If James Carville didn't slime Paula we might never have been so well entertained for so long. Plus it's the only part of his legacy that's remotely interesting.

...The intentional killing of little girls cannot ever be supported....

Posted by: rdw on July 16, 2006 at 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

Except when it's done with US armaments. The Israelis in Lebanon, Gaza and Weast Bank, and US forces in Iraq have killed hundreds over the years. And it can't be counted as unintentional when it is a predictable result of casual use of weaponry.

There's nothing wrong with the information I provide. It goes to show that Arabs within Israel seem to encounter racism and a two-tier economy. I'm sure you were too lazy to read any of the links. As to the Arabs in Gaza, as I pointed out, it's hard enough to get figures about the Arabs in Israel. The Israelis seem to deliberately avoid separating them out in a lot of papers.

I'll repeat. I've asked you for cites for what you allege. I'm interested to see how low the Israelis have kept them.

I'm waiting.

paula jones, much like you, IS white trash ... I fail to see how this answers my question.

And it can't be counted as unintentional when it is a predictable result of casual use of weaponry.

It is absolutely unintentional.

The cockroaches who walk into a pizza place wearing a suicide belt or into a mall or on a bus or whatever and look for little kids and walk up to them to make sure they are blown to bits are the terrorists we are describing. Their masters must be killed and those helping their masters must be killed also. In addition, whatever cause they are espousing must be destroyed. Otherwise it would just encourage more cockroaches.

I am certain the arabs in Israel are not as well off as the jews. It's pretty easy to see why. When Arabs have sworn to kill jews it ain't easy to trust arabs.

My point remains and you have not and cannot dispute the fact the Palestinian Arabs in Israel are the wealthiest and freest Palestinians on the planet. They know it and you know it.

They also know what kind of a life they would have of they lived in Gaza or the West Bank and they want no parts of either.

Where the Left went off the road so long ago and why they have so little influence is you wish to prevent Israel from defending themselves. Hezbollah can launch rockets to their hearts content and liberals express regret. Jews respond and they express outrage. This is why the UN and the EU have no serious role anywhere.

The misery of the GWB administration for you is due to the fact conservatives are in control and express their contempt for you every day. The election of Ariel Sharon was a glorious repudiation of liberalism. GWB in his 1st term pulled out of Kyoto, the ABM treaty, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and allowed Sharon to be Sharon. He crushed the infatada using assassinations and humiliated Arafat. He ignored the UN and EU at every turn doing exactly the opposite of liberal wishes. And then he kicked John Kerry's ass while increasing his prior vote total by a stunning 23%

Liberals remain marginalized still. The UN and EU are meaningless. Germany has been peeled off taking an opposite position from France. All of the arab nations in the region have been low key recognizing this isn't an Israeli-Arab conflict but a Jewish-Islamic fundamentalists war. This is GWOT.

It's almost fun watching the libs fume. Go ahead, It's all you got!

I prefer my rdw screeching in the original german.

I'll repeat. I've asked you for cites for what you allege. I'm interested to see how low the Israelis have kept them.

I have no idea what 'cites' you are talking about. If you mean the incomes of Arabs in Gaza do you really need numbers? Look at the CIA factbook. Per capita income is less than $1K. They are just above sub-sahara Africa. Pitiful doesn't describe their condition.

It's rather clear one of the reasons Sharon left Gaza is he wanted the rest of the world to see just how pitiful these people are. Fatah stole most of the money and did nothing. The people in Gaza wouldn't have toilets or running water of the Jews didn't provide it. Fatah is incapable of managing a civilized society. Hamas is only marginally better. This is a failed society totally dependent on the welfare of others. They are about as ignorant as ignorant can be.

Glen Beck did an interesting essay on Friday but I only heard part of it. Upon visiting Jerusulam when traveling around he had occasion to move from a jewish sections to palestinian sections. Each time he knew exactly where the chance occured because the jewish side was clean and attractive. The arab side was filthy. Filthy enough that he felt like taking a shower after walking around.

The west bank and Gaza are ghettos because the arabs and their liberal supporters made them into ghettos. You simple bastards gave Arafat a blank check and he deposited it in his bank account. You never checked to see how he was spending it because you are PC cowards. We now have a generation of Palestinians raised to believe the highest postion one can aspire to is as a suicide bomber. They were taught this in schools you funded. You never checked and when this as reported you ignored it.

Liberals created the current mess. Sharon was brilliant although he had little choice. Peace with Arafat was always impossible. He's seen to to it will remain impossible for some time. The only viable option is to fully disengage. Create more secure borders to minimize suicide bombing and to focus on the economic boom so Israel can remain strong militarily and keep the Palestinians away.

We've seen how they've managed Gaza since Israel pulled out. It's the badlands circa 1870. They've got the time and money to buy and launch 1,000 missles but they can't or won't pick up their own trash. If they insist on living in their own feces who are we to stop them?

paula jones, much like you, IS white trash

Now, Now be nice to Paula. She's acheived immortality. By far the most historic event of the Clinton Administration is the impeachment and it will be studied for centuries. In 20 years it wull be the ONLY thing Clinton will be remembered for.

Think back to Reagans funeral. It was a week of accolades and the images of his time. I must have seen, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" 20 times. And with Reagan there was an assassination attempt and so many memorable moments. Fast forward to Clinton. There's nothing but Monica and Paula.

your identification with and deification of paula jones simply confirms your white trash status.

cool

Of course terrorists want a response and 90% of the time they know what it'll be. In Europe the response is appeasement. Osama thought it would be appeasement....

Posted by: rdw on July 15, 2006 at 5:26 PM | PERMALINK

...My political analysis is astute....

Posted by: rdw on July 15, 2006 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINK

First, documented, exactly what Osama wanted was an overpowering attack on Islam. When Bush used the word "crusade" all the bells and lights went off in the Arab world. rdw, ever go to a casino and there's a big winner. You are the big Wiener. You truly are an ignorant dork.

Second, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure, down at the Brownshirt Club, they'll back you up.

First, documented, exactly what Osama wanted was an overpowering attack on Islam.

You're an idiot. It's documented the last thing he expected was an overpowering attack on islamic fundamentalism. Osama liked being the prized guest of the Taliban. He absolutely loved traveling around Afghanistan with his entourage like a roock star. Now most of his buds are dead. He's living in a cave and he's getting his mail by donkey express.

Afghanistan has gone from being a fundamentalist state contolled by nuts to an open democracy with an open economy where the Taliban lives in caves on the fringes hunted down like dogs and executed when found.

His buddy in Iraq gets his regular flea checkup but can't support terror any longer. The govt of Iraq is democratic and a staunch foe of Al Qaeda hunting them down like dogs and executing them on sight.

The same thing is happening in the rest of the arab world except for Iran and Syria. Even in Pakistan their operations have been curtialed.

Osama's reputation has also been shattered as he cowers in his cave. Like most of the terror leaders this martyrdom thing is for the donkeys. Osama is the biggest loser along with Mullah Omar. Neither can go outside until aides scan the sky for drones and even then they still don't know.