Oh big woop. It doesn't fly. It's the 21st Century, and I distinctly remember being promised flying cars.

If you don't have any millionaire fans, you can get one of these for about $400.

Sorry, my link didn't work ... I meant one of these at http://www.revopower.com/main_detect.html

The electric-powered Tesla Roadster boasts a top speed of more than 130 mph and a range of 250 miles on a single charge, a combination heretofore unseen in a mass-produced electric vehicle. Its extended range is due to its state-of-the-art lithium-ion Energy Storage System. The Tesla Roadster is capable of accelerating from 0-60 mph in about four seconds.

Lithium-ion is the shit, man.

Over ten years ago I read about a car design that had an induction engine for each wheel that was supposed to go even faster than the Tesla. I read a little bit about the Tesla at Wired.com, but it did not say what the engine type was, just that it was using lithium-ion batteries. I see those induction motors have made it into production.

Hey Mr. Millionaire,

If you pick one up for Kevin, could you get me one too? I'll pay you back when I win the Powerball (or when I vote in Arizona).

It is an interesting concept. There's only one thing that bothers me. You've heard about those laptops that catch fire?

This uses those batteries. Lithium Ion battery are awesome for energy density, which is why they became popular in notebooks, but there's some real problems with them.

1) High internal resistance -- you can't pull a great deal of current out of them at a given momemnt. Judging by the fact that this car is using over 1000 cells, they're getting around that by parelling the battery packs.

2) Lousy life. A LiIon battery starts losing capacity the moment it is made. Keeping it cold slows the process. Getting it warm accelerates it, as does storing it at full charge.

A LiIon cell at 140F with 100% charge will lose 40% of the original capacity in three months. Don't buy this car if you live in a desert.

3) They really hate being driven to zero charge. The way you make a LiIon battery last is run it to 40% capacity, charge it, and run it again. As long as you do that, you're fine. Pushing it farther will permanently reduce the capacity of the battery, if not destroy it.

4) They really hate being frozen. So, if you live where it gets hot *or* cold, don't buy this car.

5) They have a bad failure mode -- often, the battery's response to abuse is to catch fire. If you crash the car and crush or puncture the battery pack, you will almost certainly lose the whole car. If you're knocked out by the collision, you're toast -- the LiIon batteries will react very quickly.

Indeed, every LiIon cell I've ever seen -- and I've seen a bunch, has this big warning about "Do not store in a car" They really hate getting hot.

This is why the hybrids, to a car, use NiMH, not LiIon batteries. More current per cell, much longer lasting, more tolerant of heat and cold, much more likely to survive abuse, much less loss of capacity over time, and much less chance of catching fire and/or exploding. The few hybrids that announced they'd use LiIon packs gave up and shipped with NiMH.

So. If you live in a very temperate climate, never crash, and don't mind losing about 10-15% of your range every year, this is an ideal car for you. Otherwise, your range loss per year will be much greater, and you'll never know when the battery might be really pissed off.

Holy Batshit! If it handles, sweet! Elise-like.
0 to 60 in 4 seconds in complete silence! Love it.

First accessory for the kids of this world: The super-duper, VROOMy noise-maker.

And then the Open Pipe version.

Even tackier: the clicky-clacky card version.

We know how to create a market.

I am just hoping for a Prius. Hard to find in Red State Country.

WOW, all that and a 250 mile range on one charge. How long to recharge?

Sorry, Kevin, but we voted and would rather have you around blogging for our side than bursting into flames. How about just a nice Hallmark card?

Not a true Tesla car.

If Tesla had designed it, there would be no batteries. Instead, it would be powered by microwaves beamed from towers.

Infinite range. And a weight savings of about 1000 lbs.

Oh, Woe!

I just read the whole article, and I've seen this whoops on these threads, in the papers, elsewhere, even in a British paper lately: "regenerative breaking".

Braking, braking, BRAKING!

Oooooooh!

Sorry, Kevin, but we voted and would rather have you around blogging for our side than bursting into flames. How about just a nice Hallmark card?
Posted by: GOP on July 21, 2006 at 7:53 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah. As if Lithium-Ion batteries have been responsible for more explosions and fires than gasoline has. Yawn.

When was the last time gasoline tank exploded from spontaneous combustion? The decision of the VRCW is final. Kevin is too valuable right where he is.

Jeez, Erik, way to spoil my dream. Sometimes the reality-based community can be a real pain.

I guess that's why this company is in Santa Monica. Lots of rich people and a nice temperate climate.

Osama_Been_Forgotten: Not a true Tesla car.

I'll say. Nikola must be spinning in his grave over this namesake car that runs on DC!

Yeah, I'm with OBF. A true Tesla car gets its power beamed to it. A better Tesla car also ensures the weather wherever you are going is fine, just fine.

The downside of a true Tesla car is that its AM radio only picks up Art Bell.

A couple of articles about lithium-ion batteries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5.htm

notthere: Oh, Woe! ... "regenerative breaking" ... BRAKING!

Are you certain it's a typo?

Well, Kevin, I went ahead and bought you a Lotus Elise and was all set to drive it down to SoCal and present it to you, then you posted this.

Oh well, back to the dealership for a refund.

Erik V. Olson: The few hybrids that announced they'd use LiIon packs gave up and shipped with NiMH.

I don't know about this car, but manufacturers in general haven't given up on Li.

http://hybridcars.com/news/news.php?news_id=524

Technology marches on (I hope).

More info on improved Li batteries for cars:

http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?ResLibraryID=16137&GoTopage=1&BzID=546&Category=856

A true Tesla car would run off the gravitational field of the Earth. It charges by existing.

Or, maybe the morphic field.

Osama_Been_Forgotten: Not a true Tesla car.

I'll say. Nikola must be spinning in his grave over this namesake car that runs on DC!

From the article: "...the Tesla Roadster's power comes from a 3-phase, 4-pole AC induction motor coupled with the Power Electronics Module (PEM) which provides multiple functionality of inverting direct current to 3-phase alternating current, the charging system, and the regenerative braking system."

I'll say. Nikola must be spinning in his grave over this namesake car that runs on DC!
Posted by: alex on July 21, 2006 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

It's an AC motor though. . .

The downside of a true Tesla car is that its AM radio only picks up Art Bell.
Posted by: jerry on July 21, 2006 at 8:21 PM | PERMALINK

Awesome.

Hostile: Over ten years ago I read about a car design that had an induction engine for each wheel ... I see those induction motors have made it into production.

Actually there's nothing exotic about induction motors. For over a hundred years they've been the standard type of AC motor for anything larger than a blender (used for everything from washing machines to multi-thousand horsepower industrial motors).

A quick net search seems to show that they're standard for hybrids. Perhaps the car's name isn't so bad. Tesla invented the AC induction motor. That's what made AC (as opposed do Edison's DC) practical. Everybody except Edison understood the advantages of AC over DC, but before Tesla's invention there wasn't a practical AC motor.

Of course AC induction motors running off of DC batteries have only been practical in recent decades, with hi-power semiconductors (needed to convert the DC to AC).

I don't remember enough of my motor and generator stuff to be sure why they use AC induction motors instead of DC motors. It may be the efficiency. IIRC multi-phase induction motors can be over 90% efficient.

Until I clicked the link, I thought you had your heart set on an elephant.

For the price of one Tesla, you can get five JL421 Badonkadonk Land Cruiser/Tanks. I think the choice is obvious. Especially if you consider the 400 watt premium sound system and external loudspeaker aftermarket accessory...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00067F1CE/sr=8-1/qid=1153531399/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1238336-8742260?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

Don’t worry – GM and Exxon will buy the patent and run the Tesla through the trash compactor like they did here. Sorry to be so cynical, but we live in cynical times.

Anyway, very cool car!

Quiet is cool, but complete silence is too weird. I think it would be disorienting. Your brain needs that information for "planning."

Stephen:

Do you ever wonder if Kevin has been bought too?

Jeez, Erik, way to spoil my dream.

Hey, I'm a sysadmin, that's what I do.

Now, the guy does have the right idea - a fun electric will sell better than an punishment electric. But we need better batteries, or better capacitors, or both.

However, both batteries and capacitors are getting better. Lithium Polymer batteries solve most of the problems of LiIon -- but the resistance problem with LiPoly is even worse (They're great in small, low power devices. It wasn't the small hard drive that made the iPod work -- it was the LiPoly battery that gave it enough runtime that made it work.)

We're getting better at caps too -- I've see 2600F caps, which is getting to the realm of AA batteries, but with vastly more current handling and vastly shorter charging times. A $10 10KF 2.5V capictor the size of a AA cell would change how we look at power -- it isn't much more than an AA, but it would charge in seconds -- which solves the range problem. The range problem with electrics isn't the 100-200 miles, it's the 4+ hour wait to recharge after 100-200 miles.

For pure electrics, neither battery nor capicitor is there -- yet. But they're both getting very close, which is why we're seeing somewhat workable electric cars and hybrids. Theoretically, a carbon nanotube capacitor can handle 30KW/kg -- a truly staggering about of power, and if they can get the storage capacity up, suddenly, this whole idea of burning stuff in a car will look incredibly primitive.

Don't forget those Philadelphia high-school kids who put together the biodiesel hybrid that goes 0 to 60 in under 4 seconds . . . and cheaper. Although this Tesla (and cld sure is a numbskull) is indeed the sh*t!
http://www.penn-partners.org/evteam/attack.htm#

GOP:

On a certain level of abstraction, we have all been "bought".

Peace,

SK

Let's get on point.

When is Kevin's birthday? Where is the party?

Happy Birthday, Kevin!

Love,

Your #1 Fan!

The principal of Tesla relied on a Kiwi, Ian Wright, a dot-com wizard from who became rich from the net bubble. Wright is building a machine on his own, one that has blown away the high end Porsche and Ferrari.

From:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/>

Indeed, the race for the new consumer EV has already begun: Just a year ago, Wright was working for his Woodside neighbor Martin Eberhard, co-founder of Tesla Motors, a startup that has 70 employees and a major investment from PayPal founder Elon Musk, which is building a mass-market rival to the X1. Wright left, believing he had an even better idea.

Wright and his pals understand that battery technology is deficient:

To bring any EV to the masses, of course, will require much improved battery technology. But a handful of startups backed by Valley VCs are claiming that big advances are just around the corner. Menlo Park-based Li-on Cells claims that its technology will double the performance of lithium-ion batteries for about half the cost.

Keep that dream alive, Kevin, you'll have that electric speed machine within a few short years.

Erik -- or any 'lectickal ingeneer-type who followed the battery discussion.

Got a question about energy density. You said the LiIon battery is "awesome for current density" but then you said that they had high internal resistance, so you can't pull much current out of them at any given time.

I'm having trouble squaring this with E = I/R. Sure, internal resistance = lower amperage. But why do you also describe the LiIon as being awesome for current density?

How does current density relate to potential amperage output?

Thanks,

Bob

rmck1: any 'lectickal ingeneer-type who followed the battery discussion ... You said the LiIon battery is "awesome for current density"

No, what he said was that "Lithium Ion battery are awesome for energy density". High internal resistance means low power density - you can't get much power out of it at any given moment (certainly not efficiently). But drain them at a low to moderate rate and you can get a high energy density - high total energy supplied over a discharge cycle.

Classic need for a high power density is the battery in a regular car. To crank the engine you need hundreds of Watts, but only for a few seconds. After that the alternator supplies the juice, so you don't care much about energy density.

The power vs. energy density thing is a common point of confusion.

P.S. I'm glad somebody else knows how "'lectickal ingeneer" is pronounced.

Corrected link to Ian Wright's electric car

I learn more about science reading a political site then I ever have before. I love this site!

This is more like it. Federer, Cars, Movies. That political animal Drum is the Shiznit. I think a post about the joys of avacado burgers is way overdue.

"I learn more about science reading a political site then I ever have before. I love this site!"

Word!

alex:

Thanks. Gotchie -- although I should've caught the word mistake. I would've realized that *power density* is wattage (E * I) / time. Like kilowatt/hours.

So basically what he's saying is that LiIon batteries have an awesome fuckload of a lifespan before recharging, thought they might dribble out the current.

Anyone have any idea what the voltage might be on one of those cells?

Bob

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OH Big deal, its only a Lotus Elise with 6,848 batteries in it....

whoopsie: *power density* = *energy density*

Power density is immediate need: Wattage.

Energy density is over a given time frame: Wattage/time.

I hate terminological brainfarts on technical subjects.

Bob

Classic need for a high power density is the battery in a regular car.

Exactly -- and thus, the difference between car starter batteries, and deep cycle lead acid batteries. Same chemistry, but starter batteries have thinner, porous, (almost foam like) plates, while lead acid batteries for battery backup have thick, solid plates. The former can dump a great deal of current for a short time, but is destroyed quickly by a deep discharge/recharge cycle. The latter can't produce a large current, but as long as you don't overcharge them, are just short of bulletproof.

In both cases, the energy density is low, both in terms of volume and mass. Lead Acid batteries are fairly tough and powerful, but are very large and heavy. They can be very good at power though -- it's a trivial hack to grab two or three car batteries, wire them in series (use very thick cables) and weld steel with them.

Lithium Ion batteries can hold the same total energy in a fraction of the mass and volume -- but you can't get that energy out quickly, thus, they're bad at power applications. Analogy -- American football players don't have much energy density, but have great power. Tour de France cyclist have much larger energy densities, but much less power -- so a TdF cyclist can only generate three to four hundred watts, but can do so for hours. An American football player can generate many kilowatts -- for a second or two. Which is better -- depends. What do you need to accomplish? If I need to move an ounce 120 miles, I want the cyclist. If I need to move 200 pounds five feet, give me the football player.

That leads to the transportation problem -- you need both -- Power to start them moving, energy to keep them moving. Imagine needing a football player to shove you down the road, then the cyclist to keep you going.

The reason gas engines won is they do this very well. Gas explosions have great amounts of power, gasoline is very energy dense.

The answer here for electrics -- batteries and capacitors. Batteries have high energy densities, but capacitors have high power. Right now, we don't quite have enough energy in batteries, and we don't have enough power in capacitors. But both are improving rapidly -- there's talk of a 35F, 3.5kV capacitor. (!!!) Yes, I'm scared of that too.

This is also why the battery replacement argument in hybrids is silly. Battery tech is advancing much faster than inflation. Right now, I could replace the battery pack of my Honda Civic hybrid - A 144V, 6.5Ahr battery -- with a better one (144V, 10Ahr) for about $1000, $720 being cell costs, the rest the labor of soldering 120 cells together. (NiMH cells, btw, at 1.2V per -- the low resistance means you can run 120 of them in series and still get useful power. With LiIon, 120 in series would net you about a microamp of current -- if you were lucky.) By the time I actually need to replace the battery pack, a 144V 6.5Ahr battery will cost somewhere around $300, given current (ahem) trends.

Part of the anti-hybrid/anti-electric argument posits that gas costs won't follow inflation but batteries would. Until 2004, the first part of that argument was correct, but the latter was always bogus, thanks to the computer revolution. Now, well, note how the administration keeps pointing at CPI. ;)

Anyone have any idea what the voltage might be on one of those cells?

Very high, compared to most cells. Voltages:

NiMH/NiCd: 1.2
Lead Acid/Carbon/Alkaline: 1.5V
Lithium Polymer: 2.7
Lithium (non-rechargable): 3.2
Lithium Ion: 3.8V

Lithium primary cells have one great trick -- extremly low self-discharge. Thus, you can put one on a shelf for 10 years and have useful energy left in the cell when you try to use it.

These are full charge voltages for single cells.

Eric/Secular Animist...

The Wiki article notes improvements that have been made in lithium batteries in recent years, and even links to the entirely separate article on the lithium polymer battery. I wouldn't be quite so down-talking of this technology if I were you.

Indeed, Wiki's article on the lithium polymer battery says:
"These batteries may also power the next generation of Electric Cars. The cost of an electric car of this type is prohibitive, but proponents argue that with increased production, the cost of Li-Poly batteries will go down. Until power density and reliability issues are resolved, any speculation on successful use in this application is premature."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_cell

Cassandro:

That Philly HS "performance hybrid" is really a light hybrid.

I quote:

"Under normal driving conditions, the vehicle will solely be powered by the diesel engine. Therefore, the ultra-capacitor pack stores only enough energy for a few minutes of blazing acceleration."

Erik:

So let me get this straight ...

They're running the Tesla on about 1000 LiIon cells connected in *parallel*?

So that means the car runs on ... 3.8 volts?

Or am I missing something ...

Bob

I'm high... Wait, am I high or has Politcal Aminal beeen taken over by engineers? Ok, so I'm high, by the question stands.

A further observation on the Penn HS students "performance hybrid."

Ford unveiled a diesel-hybrid prototype at last year's Detroit Auto Show.

Heavier weight than the "performance hybrid," to be sure, but at the same time, with full (or at least mild, rather than light) hybridization, it surely got better than 60 mpg. Dunno what the acceleration was.

Actually diesel-hybrids would be great for heavy machinery, given the low-end torque of both diesels and electric motors.

Is silence going to be a safety issue with EVs?

As a cyclist, vehicle noise behind me lets me know I need to move a little closer to the curb. Pedestrians, hearing nothing, may be more likely to step into danger's path. I suppose there would still be the friction noise of tires on road.

Anyway, go Electric Car! And thanks, Erik and others, for the battery lessons.

enozinho:

That's ingeneers. As in 'lectickal.

And no, I'm not an electrical engineer. Nor do I play one on TV.

Just a hopeless Popular Science nerd who never grew out of it.

Bob

Another question (a rather large hypothetical one)...

What would be the overall effect if, say, in North America, 75% percent of car owners switched to EVs in the next 5-10 years?

Could the power grid/economy/society handle it?

The "noise problem" for electric cars is trivially solved: they have awesome sound systems. As they become more common they'll compete with different vroom tones.

Erik, your 0:42 comment about battery replacement cost was a welcome surprise. I'd thought it was prohibitively expensive, and perhaps a net environmental negative. You make it sound as though a plug-in hybrid, with a PV recharger at home or at work, might actually be a somewhat sustainable system.

The future starts looking a little better.

When was the last time gasoline tank exploded from spontaneous combustion?

When was the last time you punctured your gas tank or ran your car to meltdown point?

I've seen cars sitting by the side of the road, burnt to the pavement just from being overheated. It's not like it doesn't happen every day somewhere in the country.

Much more often than those batteries fail.

But, isn't the car kind of ugly?

From a guy's point of view (I drive a purple-blue Integra GS-R) it's actually pretty sexy. Sort of a Corvette/Porsche/Lotus look. Muscle and sinew, in an automotive context.

I'd rather have a hatchback. What good is a car if it can't carry a Christmas tree home in the trunk?

But then I wouldn't call a alligator ugly, at least not to its face.

Crissa:

You really should have a look at the wikipedia article on lithium ion batteries ...

It's a promising technology, but *man*, those batteries are way temperature-sensitive. And the stuff they give off burning makes gasoline smoke seem like a Swedish sauna ...

Bob

Tbe really awesome development would be a universal battery pack that you could just lift out from a storage compartment.

Instead of spending 4+ hrs recharging, you'd just drop it off at a "station" and exchange it for a fresh one, paying a nominal fee for the charge.

Pop it in, and you're off again ...

We'd need some serious infrastructure for that, but that's the way to go if we're ever going to get to an electric road in this country ...

Bob

Lithium Ion batteries can hold the same total energy in a fraction of the mass and volume -- but you can't get that energy out quickly, thus, they're bad at power applications. Analogy -- American football players don't have much energy density, but have great power. Tour de France cyclist have much larger energy densities, but much less power -- so a TdF cyclist can only generate three to four hundred watts, but can do so for hours. An American football player can generate many kilowatts -- for a second or two. Which is better -- depends. What do you need to accomplish? If I need t

It's true that recharging an electric car presents some difficulties for vacation use, but not for commuting. Most days it's simply: recharge overnight, drive to work, recharge, drive home. Even driving to lunch, for those who must, isn't necessarily a problem.

Recharging during the day is particularly attractive if we're turning photons into electrons in real time.

Sounds like a temperature control system could be installed, solving that problem though costing energy.

Oh, I see you do not mean it is an elephant, but whether it has a boot. A very strange language indeed.

I would prefer a high-speed intercontinental electric train system.

Oh, that's right, I'm in Japan: I already have one!

Don't take mine man!

Crissa:

When was the last time you punctured your gas tank or ran your car to meltdown point?

That currently happens "much more often" because there are MORE regular cars, but not just from sitting still. I've never heard of a regular car spontaneously combust from sitting BY ITSELF in the heat (even the infamous exploding Pinto needed SOMETHING to hit it). But have you ever touched metal getting into a locked car that's been sitting outside in 104 degree heat?

Stephen Kriz:

On a certain level of abstraction, we have all been "bought".

O.K., but how many of us advertise said PRICE on the Internet with a thread like Kevin?

rmck1: They're running the Tesla on about 1000 LiIon cells connected in *parallel*?

No, I'm sure they're in series. Parallel charge/discharge is a horror because you'll get more current in or out of one battery than another (they're never perfectly matched). And of course high current low voltage wastes lots of power in the wires.

IIRC Toyota hybrids use something like a 500V stack of NiMH batteries. That makes me feel vindicated. Last time I did any serious work with batteries, NiMH were the latest thing. One guy said that my 50V stack was impractical (there can be problems with large series stacks).

Erik V. Olson: a football player to shove you down the road

If I get one of those, can I also get a cheerleader as part of the entertainment system? (don't bother to mention that I'm a pig, my wife reminds me regularly).

bad Jim: The "noise problem" for electric cars is trivially solved: they have awesome sound systems. As they become more common they'll compete with different vroom tones.

I want one that goes "clop, clop, clop".

Maldoror: I would prefer a high-speed intercontinental electric train system. Oh, that's right, I'm in Japan: I already have one!

On which continent is Japan located?

That irresistable snark aside, faster trains would be great in places like the Northeast Corridor.

And, speaking of being bought, did anyone else see Professor Bainbridge's thread on Executive Compensation? I wonder if Kevin would ever post something like this?

"This week's Economist has some interesting data:

Steven Kaplan, an economist at the University of Chicago, calculates that measured ex ante (valuing options using the Black-Scholes formula, rather than by what they later turn out to be worth when they are exercised) and in real terms, for firms in the S&P 500 index, average chief-executive compensation peaked in 2000, and has since fallen by about a third.

In other words, being CEO is still a great deal, but it's not quite as good a deal as the critics of executive pay would have you believe."

Reading the home page of the car blog was a little sad, for an American.

There was a Mini with electric drive in all four wheels, a Brio coming out of Brazil that looks like a sportscar version of the Smart car....and an article about who makes the worst American cars, illustrated by a photo of a Ford pickup.

Looks like what we need is advanced design from Brazil. Can I get a Brazilian Beach Babe with that car?

Yeah, this is the American Century- the South American Century.

>It's true that recharging an electric car presents some difficulties for vacation use

I often wonder what Europeans think of the American aversion to renting something for that once or twice a year thing? Hell, given our "vacations" mebbie every other year...

Some sad news: Jack Warden, an Emmy-winning and Academy Award-nominated actor who played gruff cops, coaches and Harry Rosenfeld in "All the President's Men" has died. He was 85.

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