Editore"s Note
Tilting at Windmills

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July 22, 2006
By: Kevin Drum

CIVILIANS....Alan Dershowitz argues today that all those civilians being killed in Lebanon may not really be civilians after all:

We need a new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare. A new phrase should be introduced into the reporting and analysis of current events in the Middle East: "the continuum of civilianality." Though cumbersome, this concept aptly captures the reality and nuance of warfare today and provides a more fair way to describe those who are killed, wounded and punished.

[Lengthy distinction then drawn between truly innocent civilians vs. civilians who support or sympathize with terrorist groups.]

The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit. Some those who cannot leave on their own should be counted among the innocent victims.

Excepting the lame and the sick, then, anyone who declines to leave their home despite Israeli orders to do so is, ipso facto, complicit with terrorism and presumably fair game once the Israeli invasion gets under way. How they get totted up after the killing is over depends on where they fall on Dershowitz's nebulous "continuum."

This is very clever. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever. But I wonder how he'd respond to a similarly clever and nuanced definition of the word "terrorist"?

Kevin Drum 3:49 PM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (361)

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Comments

No moral Equivalence!

Posted by: nut on July 22, 2006 at 3:52 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah, and it is my understanding that the Shiite
south in Lebanon is composed of mainly very poor peasants. These people have nowhere to go, so when they leave they become homeless, completely without resources, other than what Hezbollah is providing in shelters.

Posted by: nepeta on July 22, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

Shorter Dershowitz:
for all rules, Israel is always the exception.
for most of the others, America can claim exception too-as long as it conforms to what Israel wants.

for all the rest of those brown people out there.....not so much.

Posted by: susan on July 22, 2006 at 3:56 PM | PERMALINK

Why bother? Kill them all and let God sort them out.

Posted by: Wonderin on July 22, 2006 at 3:59 PM | PERMALINK

The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit.

By what legal authority can the army of one state order the civilians of another sovereign state out of their homes?

Moreover, this is a doctrine that, if adopted, would have some rather uncomfortable outcomes in the future. Imagine Lebanese or Syrian forces, say, turning the tables and saying "the Syrian army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of northern Israel that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit." Would Prof. Dershowitz support their right to do so?

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 3:59 PM | PERMALINK

This is pretty disgusting. It implies (judging by your summary) that it's o.k. to kill people for having the wrong thoughts (they sympathize with Hezbollah), or pre-emptively (they might take up arms with Hezbollah at some point in the future).

It's appalling to see a serious person trying so hard to come up with lawyerly justifications for the old kill-'em-all approach.

Posted by: Garamond12 on July 22, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

This is very clever. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever.

I guess I shouldn't expect anything less from you since you're a liberal. When George W Bush told the people of New Orleans Hurricane Katrina was coming, you and other liberals tried to deflect the fact that it was the New Orleaners fault for not leaving after Bush told them to. Now you're trying to deflect the fact it's the Lebanese fault for not leaving Southern Lebanon after Israel told them to.
Suppose a hurricane or earthquake was coming to your area and you were told that but you refused to leave anyway. Wouldn't it be your fault if you got killed after you were warned? Unfortunately liberals aren't willing to have people accept responsibility for their own actions. First liberals blamed Bush for Katrina. Now you're blaming Israel for the irresponsible actions of the Lebanese people.

Posted by: Al on July 22, 2006 at 4:00 PM | PERMALINK

Al go away. No one cares for your nonsense.

Posted by: nut on July 22, 2006 at 4:01 PM | PERMALINK

By that logic, no civilians would remain in Israel following a Hezbollah announcement that "We're comin' to getcha, so clear out!" Especially given (almost) universal conscription in Israel, the vast majority of male citizens would be considered non-active military personnel. Civilians are those who do not bear arms or participate logistically or tactically in offensive operations. American citizens support their military financially and socially and many send letters and gifts at their own expense. That doesn't make then less civilian. Especially not if Dershowitz still qualifies.

Posted by: aer on July 22, 2006 at 4:02 PM | PERMALINK


DERSHOWITZ: Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit.

This was precisely the Republican line following Hurricane Katrina. Like his fellow torture advocates in that party, Dershowitz is a fascist.


Posted by: jayarbee on July 22, 2006 at 4:02 PM | PERMALINK

Does that mean that civilians in the US are complicit in W's nonsense, and if it's found that he violated international law at some point, it's fair for someone to bomb us all?

Posted by: lupe on July 22, 2006 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINK

"If you don't leave your home to get out of Israel's way, you are a terrorist."

This is the opposite of clever. It's using "new" vocabluary words to reshape the boundaries of morality. Orwell understood this perfectly.

It is, in fact, the way Hezbollah etc. regard all citizens of the "Zionist Entity" - valid targets.

Good luck with that, Alan.

Posted by: HeavyJ on July 22, 2006 at 4:03 PM | PERMALINK

Rules for other people's children, never their own.

Posted by: Dave of Maryland on July 22, 2006 at 4:04 PM | PERMALINK

Just goes to show that a good lawyer can make anything sound legal and even moral at least to some people.

Dershowitz lost me when he proposed oh so clever idea of torture warrants after 9/11.

Posted by: nut on July 22, 2006 at 4:06 PM | PERMALINK

By what legal authority can the army of one state order the civilians of another sovereign state out of their homes?

Actually, Israel is behaving more kindly than required. Lebanaon made war on Israel by kidnapping and killing Israeli soldiers and by firing missiles. Under the laws of war, as I understand them, Israel could counter-attack military targets. In this case, Lebanon has placed military targets among their civilian population. Lebanon desereves the blame for that, not Israel.

(By the way, this post doestn't distinguish Lebanon from Hezbollah. From Israel's POV that's not required, although in fact, Israel has made efforts to do so.)

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 4:09 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a Judeofascist. He's willing to swallow any atrocity, as long as it's committed by the shitty little country.

Note that if Dershowitz's argument was applied consistently, it would justify any act of terrorism against Israel. After all, every able-bodied adult in Israel is an IDF reserve member. Of course, Dershowitz won't do that. He has one set of rules for Israelis and another set for everyone else.

Posted by: Firebug on July 22, 2006 at 4:11 PM | PERMALINK

Truly, we must all agree that the Lebanese who stay behind are nothing more than Little Eichmanns.

Posted by: Aaron S. Veenstra on July 22, 2006 at 4:12 PM | PERMALINK

uh, I think the vocabulary is already pretty well know.

Dershowitz is saying that these civilians deserve to be killed at their homes and workplaces because they are somehow "complicit" with the regime that is being attacked by a foreign enemy.

The phrase he wants is "Little Eichmanns".

That's what Dershowitz has done--he has taken Ward Churchill's completely fucked view that my friends in the World Trade Center deserved to be killed, and he has applied it to my friends in Lebanon.

Now I hope the right wing will begin a campaign to drum Dershowitz out of his academic position.

Posted by: noFanofWard on July 22, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

Kinda reminds me of days of yore, when the peasantry were trampled underfoot in battles and the knights in armor always had their lives saved, because it was a sin for a commoner to harm the nobility. Dershowitz, however, would be the last person I would trust to decide who was expendable.

When the conclusion is absurd, or worse, it hardly pays to examine the argument. In the present case, among the first people killed were villagers who heeded an Israeli warning to evacuate, and were bombed on the road.

Posted by: serial catowner on July 22, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK


AL: Suppose a hurricane or earthquake was coming to your area and you were told that but you refused to leave anyway. Wouldn't it be your fault if you got killed after you were warned?

Suppose the guys in white coats or the animal control people were coming to your house and you were told that but you refused to leave anyway. Wouldn't it be your fault if you got eltro-shocked, lobotomized or euthanized after you were warned?

They're coming, Al, you crazy dog, you.


Posted by: jayarbee on July 22, 2006 at 4:16 PM | PERMALINK

When the conclusion is absurd, or worse, it hardly pays to examine the argument. In the present case, among the first people killed were villagers who heeded an Israeli warning to evacuate, and were bombed on the road.Posted by: serial catowner on July 22, 2006 at 4:13 PM | PERMALINK

Touch; Good point.

Posted by: jcricket on July 22, 2006 at 4:20 PM | PERMALINK

Boy I hope the other side doesn't read that and flip the logic to apply to different categories of American civilians. I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue if hijackers sorted out Republicans from their hostages and declared them on the wrong end of their continuum.

I'm generally a fan of looking at things as a continuum rather than in black and white, but this sounds like Dershowitz is doing this to darken the reputations of people he doesn't like and justify their misery, rather than to lighten their reputations and accept their humanity.

Argh. We seem to just keep falling.

Posted by: Simon St.Laurent on July 22, 2006 at 4:22 PM | PERMALINK

It's appalling to see a serious person trying so hard to come up with lawyerly justifications for the old kill-'em-all approach.

Serious person? Who? Dershowitz? Please. He's a wholesale propagandist. Not even an original one, for chrissakes.

Posted by: Bill on July 22, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

Huh... well, I came over here right after seeing what may be the most stomach-turning war photo ever at Billmon's (with a caption that's overly bitter even by my standards), so Dershowitz will have to forgive me for observing that he's one callous bastard at best.

Posted by: latts on July 22, 2006 at 4:23 PM | PERMALINK

I just got up, went to my bookshelf and removed Mr. Dershowitz' book. The book is now in the trash.

Posted by: milo on July 22, 2006 at 4:24 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a fascist. Posted by: jayarbee -WORD

another one of those duel citizen fuckers. just like chertoff. scary huh!

Posted by: cultBush on July 22, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINK

No matter how Dershowitz may want to parse the word "civilians" to serve his world view,
here is what is happening to them (link taken from Juan Cole's website, and I'll echo his warning that the photos are horribly graphic).

Posted by: Del Capslock on July 22, 2006 at 4:27 PM | PERMALINK

So, according to Dershowitz, if a person remains on their property when a foreign power invades, then by definition they support the enemy. How many levels of "what the fuck? here?

Posted by: ego on July 22, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz gained cred as a civil rights lawyer. That is one reason his opionions keep being pushed. "See, this is the Liberal position".

Shorter Dershowitz:

I'm still for civil rights for humans, but anybody who doesn't support whatever Israel does is not human.

Posted by: MonkeyBoy on July 22, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

As you idiots drive the Jews and the blacks away from the Democrat party, you continue to wonder: Why can't we get elected?

And the running joke is your need to believe you're smarter than our President.

If you'd like to read a modern version of "Why We Fight", check out soxblog http://www.soxblog.com/ -- his essay, "The urge for a Ceasefire"

Then come back and ask Kevin Drum to put himself back on Dec 8th, 1941 and get his suggestions for the way forward.

Oh wait, we know what he would say. Kevin thinks we should surrender.

Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 22, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

I'm sorry, but Dershowitz has a big chip on his shoulder and he is going around saying outrageous things so that, when he does provoke an angry response, he can shout "anti-semite."

To which I respond, even if true, so what?

Posted by: Thinker on July 22, 2006 at 4:32 PM | PERMALINK

Surrender to who?

Posted by: Sticky Bun on July 22, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

The Israelis have also advised that using a truck to flee may attract attack. Trucks can be used to carry weapons.

So, you can leave, but you can't pack a truck with your family and posessions--and everything that remains will surely be looted, even if you ever return to it. Where are you going to go? What are you going to eat when you get there? How will and where will you purchase the gasoline (that you can no longer pack--see the truck thing) you need to reach the destination?

Hizbullah's rocket attacks against Haifa are unjustifiable outside Dershowitz's frame: it fires against the Israelis whose democracy funds and arms the Tsahal, against the young people (remember, women can serve in the IDF) who make up the armed forces, and the children who will grow up to be of military age.

This is the language and logic of ethnic cleansing, of blind nationalism, of firebombing Dresden and Tokyo. I am the filthier for having dipped into the pool in which Deshowitz swims.

Posted by: Brian C.B. on July 22, 2006 at 4:33 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is just a Zionist stooge. Whatever is good for the Jews, goes. Period. War crimes, civilians slaughtered, so what if it's good for the Jews.

Posted by: grytpype on July 22, 2006 at 4:35 PM | PERMALINK

I think that Old Al, New Al, and several Fake Als have merged to produce the Al-bot from Hell. The Al entity seems to have hit bottom.

Posted by: John Emerson on July 22, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINK

Of course, Dershowitz with his Nazoid causitry worthy of Paul DeMan (talk about radical relativism in the service of absolute power) is doing nothing but burnishing the moral reputation of Hezbollah by comparison ...

Which would be kind of a neat parlor trick if it didn't have such devastating long-term consequences.

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on July 22, 2006 at 4:36 PM | PERMALINK

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
--Gandhi

Posted by: Quotation Man on July 22, 2006 at 4:41 PM | PERMALINK

hmmm, I think the Germans tried this line of reasoning in trying to explain why they killed so many Frenchmen during their occupation - they were Resistance sympathisers, not civilians.

Alan Dershowitz should know that it that argument didn't work then, and it won't work now.

Posted by: michele on July 22, 2006 at 4:42 PM | PERMALINK

UNICEF has a fund for Lebanese kids caught in this hell.

www.unicef.org

Posted by: Neely O'Hara on July 22, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

Does that mean that civilians in the US are complicit in W's nonsense, and if it's found that he violated international law at some point, it's fair for someone to bomb us all?

alQ and nearly every other terrorist orgainization in the world uses that very logic to justify killing civilians in Western democracies. as they see it, because we voted our leaders in, we are complicit in anything and everything they do. therefore, we cannot be "innocent", we are in fact "combatants".

in other words, that logic justifies 9/11.

Posted by: cleek on July 22, 2006 at 4:44 PM | PERMALINK

Anyone notice that "civilianality" contains "anality" which is a good description of Dershowitz?

Posted by: slave on July 22, 2006 at 4:46 PM | PERMALINK

Oh wait, we know what he would say. Kevin thinks we should surrender.
Posted by: Norman Rogers on July 22, 2006 at 4:30 PM | PERMALINK

NORM!!

Posted by: where nobody knows your name on July 22, 2006 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINK

Of course the Nazis argued that all of the Jews they killed in Russia during WW2 were really partisans...

Sorta reminds you of that helicopter door gunner in Full Metal Jacket: "if it runs it's VC, if it stands still it's a well-disciplined VC."

Sieg heil.

Yee ha.

Posted by: Ane Qui Rit on July 22, 2006 at 4:47 PM | PERMALINK

Alan Dershowitz sounds a lot like al Qaeda?

His rationale is very similar to the rationales used by al Queda to get around religious prohibitions against the killing of innocent civilians.

Al-Qaeda, however, disputes the broad prohibition against killing civilians on two grounds. First, it takes issue with the notion that those killed in the September 11 attacks were "innocents" covered by the prophet's prohibitions. Second, al-Qaeda argues that the prohibition is not an absolute one and that there are conditions under which killing civilians becomes permissible. The movement thus takes on both the theological argument proffered against the September 11 attacks and reformist framings of the victims as innocent. The result is a broad set of conditions that provide religious justification for killing civilians in almost every possible circumstance. Only one condition need be met to legitimize an attack against civilians.

Condition One: The Norm of Reciprocity
The sources of Islam provide clear prohibitions against killing civilians, but al-Qaeda argues for reciprocal attacks. This is justified with reference to Quran 2, 194: "And one who attacks you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you." Thus, if the enemy uses tactics that are prohibited in Islam, these tactics become legal for the Muslims. Since the document makes the case that America has purposely targeted Muslim civilians, it presses readers to accept the logical conclusion that civilian targeting, as in September 11, is now legal. This point is emphasized with particular reference to the Palestinian struggle:


There currently exists an extermination effort against the Islamic peoples that has America's blessing, not just by virtue of its effective cooperation, but by America's activity. The best witness to this is what is happening with the full knowledge of the world in the Palestinian cities of Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah and elsewhere. Every day, all can follow the atrocious slaughter going on there with American support that is aimed at children, women and the elderly. Are Muslims not permitted to respond in the same way and kill those among the Americans who are like the Muslims they are killing? Certainly! By Allah, it is truly a right for Muslims.


For al-Qaeda, the evidence points to a clear conclusion:


It is allowed for Muslims to kill protected ones among unbelievers as an act of reciprocity. If the unbelievers have targeted Muslim women, children and elderly, it is permissible for Muslims to respond in kind and kill those similar to those whom the unbelievers killed.


Condition Two: Inability to Distinguish Civilians from Combatants
When attacking an enemy "stronghold" it may be difficult to distinguish combatants from non-combatants, particularly if enemy fighters hide among the general population. The Arabic term the document uses for "stronghold" (hisn) has an interesting semantic range in light of the targets of September 11. It refers to a place that is immune to attack either because it is well fortified or because great height makes it impregnable.25 The connection with the targets is obvious -- what American sites have been more clearly associated with fortification and height than the Pentagon and the World Trade Center? Al-Qaeda argues that so long as the stronghold is a legitimate target and enemy fighters are present, Muslims can attack, even if this means civilian casualties: "It is allowed for Muslims to kill protected ones among the unbelievers in the event of an attack against them in which it is not possible to differentiate the protected ones from the combatants or from the strongholds." So even if one grants the argument that there were innocent civilians in the buildings, which al-Qaeda does not accept, the buildings can still be attacked.

The document cites as evidence a story in which Muslims asked about the offspring and women of unbelievers who stayed behind with the enemy fighters and were killed. The prophet was said to reply, "They are from among them." In this story, the women and children of the enemy preferred to remain with their men rather than flee to safety. Once they made that decision, they ceased to be innocents because they had aligned themselves with the combatants and were now legitimate targets for the Muslim forces. The al-Qaeda document suggests that those in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon should be viewed in the same way. The distinction between combatants and civilians is thereby erased since some of the latter chose to remain in "enemy territory."

Condition Three: Assistance of Civilians in "Deed, Word or Mind"
In Islamic law, the legitimacy of a target in the context of a war is typically determined by the capacity of that target or individual to fight against the Muslims. This includes enemy soldiers and leaders, as well as advisers to the military and the enemy leadership, including civilian advisers. The vast majority of civilians, however, are excluded from target lists because they are not actively engaged in battle, especially women, children and the elderly, whose capacity to fight is considered minimal in most cases.26

Al-Qaeda, however, broadens the definition of active participation to include roles that indirectly assist the enemy:


It is allowed for Muslims to kill protected ones among unbelievers on the condition that the protected ones have assisted in combat, whether in deed, word, mind or any other form of assistance, according to the prophetic command.


This is based upon a story about Duraid Ibn al-Simma, a well-known Arab poet who strongly opposed Muhammad and the message of Islam. According to tradition, he was brought to the battlefield to advise the Hawazin troops about battle procedures in a conflict against the Muslims. As a very old man, he posed no physical threat to the Muslim forces, but the intelligence he provided to the enemy made him a target and led to his death in battle.

But al-Qaeda's use of this story creates an expanded understanding of combat assistance that includes not only direct support through physical participation or advice to war planners, but less direct support as well. From this perspective, the press and journalists are legitimate targets because they are American propaganda tools in the war against al-Qaeda. Academics and intellectuals working on Islam and/or terrorism can be killed because their studies and publications help inform government officials and provide knowledge that can be used against the Muslims. Employees working in businesses that supply the government and/or military can be targeted because they provide equipment and services that support the war or the leaders waging the campaign.


http://ics.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=pmt&folder=10&paper=540

Over at Crooked Timber they point out the parrelells with rationales used by the IRA.
http://crookedtimber.org/2006/07/22/legitimate-targets/

Posted by: Catch22 on July 22, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

As one more Jew who is ashamed of Israel, one who has worked Bonds for Israel drives and who has donated money to plant trees in Israel in my grandfather's name, I see no reason to support Dershowitz's brand of judeofascism.

In 1941 we were attacked by a military-industrial power intent upon conquest. In 2001 we were attacked by 20 thugs who had been bankrolled by an insane billionaire. They killed 3000 people. That's less than the number of Americans that commit suicide every month. That's 1 per cent of the number of Americans who die every year of the effects of tobacco smoking. And yet people like Norman Rogers are willing to give sell out, for the illusion of safety, the one thing that actually does make us different from other countries. Our Constitution. And make no mistake about it. The president, whose brilliance he is arguing for, is trying to erase the protections the founding fathers wrote into it to protect us from our own government.

Posted by: Slideguy on July 22, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

Clearly Dershowitz hasn't gotten the latest talking points memo that Rush and the rest of the wingnuts are reading from: Americans in Lebanon are just crybabies for asking to be evacuated.

Posted by: islmfaoscist on July 22, 2006 at 4:52 PM | PERMALINK

and I'm a Canadian who is ashamed of Canada for towing the American line of no cease-fire now in Lebanon!

Posted by: michele on July 22, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

I'm pretty ignorant about Middle Eastern affairs, but I thought a huge part of the battle over the Palestinian situation involves the "right of return" - the argument that Palestinians should be able to return to where they (or their parents or grandparents) lived. Almost no one in the U.S. or Israel thinks they ever will be able to return or should be able to return - and I have no opinion as I'm highly ignorant. However, given that historical precedent, I don't think a Lebanese person in Southern Lebanon needs to be complicit with the terrorists to refuse to leave on Israel's orders.

It's fair to insist that the Lebanese and the Lebanese government develop some plan for controlling Hezbollah and keeping it from attacking Israel. It's also fair for Israel to respond to these attacks. The notion that the Lebanese should trust Israel to solve this problem strikes me as giving far too much credit to Israel. Even if they really will give it all back, I probably wouldn't trust them if I were Lebanese.

Posted by: MDtoMN on July 22, 2006 at 4:55 PM | PERMALINK

I have been feeling very bad about recent events in the ME and now I am nauseous. If any writer made the same claim Mr. Dershowitz does but reversed the antagonists, they would be condemned, correctly. I condemn Mr. Dershowitz for his inhumanity. This man is allowed to be the advocate spokesman for lawful torture and dehumanizing human beings without properly being vilified publicly. Lowering the status of human beings and implying they are due 'punishment' is a characteristic of totalitarianism. I am not surprised Mr. Dershowitz advocates it, but I am disgusted by him and his argument.

Posted by: Hostile on July 22, 2006 at 4:56 PM | PERMALINK

NofanofWard and Cath 22 nail it. This kind of "thinking" can be used to justify virtually any attacks on civilian populations. Indeed, to this day it is the kind of thinking used by many Americans to justify some of the more dubious tactics of WWII, such as Dresden, Nagasaki, the fireboming of Tokyo, etc. It has been used by the likes of bin Laden to justify not only the WTC attacks, but attacks on all Israelis, as they are all part of the military as he sees it.

Dershowitz has lost both his mind and his soul.

People need to look at the pictures of the victims in Lebanon before latching on to vicious abstractions like this.

Posted by: anti-neocon on July 22, 2006 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe Dershowitz's argument made more sense in the original German . . .

Posted by: CathiefromCanada on July 22, 2006 at 4:58 PM | PERMALINK

Sounds like the Osama bin Laden Doctrine to me.

Posted by: eCAHNomics on July 22, 2006 at 4:59 PM | PERMALINK

This is very clever. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever.

I think that you mistyped 'evil'. As in, this is very evil. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very evil.

Posted by: Wapiti on July 22, 2006 at 5:00 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, no doubt all of those children were complict with the actions of Hezbollah. Dershowitz really has the moral high ground now.

The death of every innocent child creates another ten "terrorists." Eventually Israel will reap what they have sown. And, because of our absurd support for Isreal's actions our children will someday pay the price.

Posted by: MLuther on July 22, 2006 at 5:00 PM | PERMALINK

I haven't read the whole thread so i don't know that it has been mentioned yet, that Dershowitz' passion for clarity in these 'security' matters has driven him to seek terms under which torture escapes opprobrium, and under which it is made available in the arsenal of 'defenders' of the (fill in the blank: faith, nation, book, church, state, people), in pursuit of the greater good/higher purpose/doomsday weapon/ultimate truth. He wants rules for mayhem, regulated slaughter, circumspect war crimes.

What these sophistries permit him to do, of course, is to escape the responsibility for any moral and ethical 'complications' (collateral damage) of his acts in the arcana of interpretation.

This is the pinnacle of intellectual dishonesty, but if Dershowitz has distinguished himself, it has been in his willingness to perform in these dangerous altitudes (and attitudes).

Posted by: konopelli/wgg on July 22, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

Hey Norman.

Bite. Comma. My. Buttocks.

Then draft yourself chickenhawk.

Posted by: me on July 22, 2006 at 5:02 PM | PERMALINK

Israel has a conscript army, therefore all Israelis are part of the continuum of 'soldier-ity', therefore all of Israel is a military target. There, done!

Oh, I forgot the 'Israelis don't count' corollary to everything Dershowitz says.

Posted by: ahem on July 22, 2006 at 5:06 PM | PERMALINK

you cannot convince people who are sure that Israel has the right to kill anyone, anywhere if they are threatened. Suggest that Israel is wrong and immediately you are anti-Semitic.

Being anti-Muslim, anti-Arab on the other hand is perfectly all right. A bigot is a bigot and considering the deaths of the innocent in Lebanon all right while mourning the deaths in Israel takes some real corkscrew thinking.

Posted by: Bugs on July 22, 2006 at 5:08 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is perfectly consistent with the phrase:

"Excepting the lame and the sick, then, anyone who declines to leave their home despite orders to do so" got what they deserved when Katrina hit.

blaming the victims...its the cult of republicanism's way.
.

Posted by: pluege on July 22, 2006 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

they're going to start bombing cambridge in 15 minutes.

Anyone who doesn't leave immediately is a terrorist.

Posted by: pontificator on July 22, 2006 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz vastly overdraws the point, but it is not without some merit.

Posted by: Rich on July 22, 2006 at 5:13 PM | PERMALINK

Future news story:
"An Israeli bomb struck a home today, killing six people. The victims were a 77% terrorist father, a 72% terrorist mother, a 48% terrorist grandmother, a 64% terrorist teenager, a 37% terrorist preteen, and a 7% terrorist baby."

If this is clever, then W is a genius.

Posted by: reino on July 22, 2006 at 5:14 PM | PERMALINK

fuck Israel and their murderous violent ways.

there, I said it.
.

Posted by: justfred on July 22, 2006 at 5:17 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe Dershowitz's argument made more sense in the original German . . .

That is clever.

Posted by: Hostile on July 22, 2006 at 5:18 PM | PERMALINK

Shorter Dershowitz: If you don't leave when Israel tells you to, you're a terrorist and you're a legitimate military target. If you leave when Israel tells you to (and after Israel destroyed all the roads you needed to follow their orders) - you're a legitimate military target anyway because terrorists use those roads, too.

Sounds like the old "throw her in the water - if she drowns, she's not a witch" standard of justice to me.

I particularly like the logic behind destroying Lebanon's entire infrastructure and its military. "Your military isn't strong enough to control the southern border, so we'll keep attacking it and weakening it further until it's strong enough to do what we want." It's sort of like breaking a piano player's fingers one at a time until your favorite song is played perfectly - it relieves your frustration temporarily but it makes your stated goal impossible to achieve. Of course, it makes much more sense if your REAL goal is to destroy the piano player so that you can take control of the piano...

Posted by: RepubAnon on July 22, 2006 at 5:19 PM | PERMALINK

didn't the US military in Iraq find out that civilians are the easiest targets?

its always the biggest and strongest that act the most full of shit.
.

Posted by: yowzer on July 22, 2006 at 5:22 PM | PERMALINK

you cannot convince people who are sure that Israel has the right to kill anyone, anywhere if they are threatened..

Bugs, your word "threatened" is ambiguous. Let's restate your quote that Israel has the right to kill anyone who is trying to wipe out their entire country.

Try this hypothetical question (if you dare):

Suppose a group of missiles were going to be fired from some other country that would kill everyone in the Umited States. Suppose the only way to prevent that slaughter was for you to fire a missile that would kill everyone in that country.

1. Would you fire your missile?

2. Would you feel differently if you knew that the populace of this country were in sympathy with the effort to kill every American?

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 5:23 PM | PERMALINK

Theorizing in the comfort of one's plush lawyer's office is one thing.

If I were Alan, I'd be careful with this kind of appalling rationalization of the wholesale slaughter of children.

Hizbollah surely has sleeper cells in the US.

Alan Dershowtiz, the intellectual's Dennis Miller.

Posted by: Taylor on July 22, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

"Anyone who runs is VC. Anyone who stays... is well-disciplined VC! Ha-ha! War's he'll, ain't it? Ha!"

-Full Metal Jacket

Posted by: dday on July 22, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

Alan,
You should really be ashamed of yourself. You just have no humanity at all.

Posted by: steve ex-expat on July 22, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

Despite the fact that the Fundies believe this will bring on the Rapture, I think it is more logical that God will decide we are a failed experiment and bring on the asteroid.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 22, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

shorter Dershowitz: all inhabitants are fair game to an invading army.

...and that's supposed to be a new view? I thought ruthless invaders have been murdering, pilaging, raping, torturing, etc. the inhabitants of their conquests since there were invading armies?

if it walks like a duck...

Posted by: pluege on July 22, 2006 at 5:25 PM | PERMALINK

I do not know what became of the Dershowitz that I once knew. The defender of the oppressed criminal defendant. The one who understood that the power of the state had to be tempered through procedural rules to protect the weak and innocent even though a certain number of the guilty would go free.

I am ashamed of the country I live in. I am ashamed that the country I served in the military and as a lawyer has devolved into this state of affairs.

The very concept that people who are innocent of any crime, living in a sovereign nation become subject to the orders of an invading country and subject to death by refusing or failing to move from their homes is repugnant to the rules of war, common decency and the ways of civilized people.

Posted by: JMOHR on July 22, 2006 at 5:26 PM | PERMALINK

Suppose a group of missiles were going to be fired from some other country that would kill everyone in the Umited States. Suppose the only way to prevent that slaughter was for you to fire a missile that would kill everyone in that country.

I have a better question: Suppose I pull a straw man out of my ass....

Posted by: lichen on July 22, 2006 at 5:26 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz was one of O. J. Simpson's defense attorneys. Any more questions?

Posted by: myself on July 22, 2006 at 5:28 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz just legitimaized Usama's attack on 9/11.

Posted by: ww on July 22, 2006 at 5:28 PM | PERMALINK

I've heard this sort of "reasoning" before. Anyone else recall the excuses for the disaster that was the Gulf Coast after Katrina?

Remember all the really bright commentators telling us that those who didn't leave in advance of the storm got pretty much what they deserved?

I also heard that the problem wasn't the Feds shitty response, but "black culture." I'm sure I'll soon hear Dershowitz proclaiming the problem is not Israel's bombing the shit out of a neighboring country without even the slightest shred of international support (except from the Neo-Cons, of course). No, the problem will be Lebanon's culture of violence, or something similar.

I despise Republicans.

Posted by: R. Manhammer on July 22, 2006 at 5:29 PM | PERMALINK

Oh, WTF!

If Osama told us to leave lower Manhattan, and we hadn't, would that make those victims 'complict?'

Sorry, he's overreaching here for a way to lessen the downside to Israel. And it's painfully obvious!

Posted by: lutton on July 22, 2006 at 5:36 PM | PERMALINK

I have a better question: Suppose I pull a straw man out of my ass

Let's see why that's a straw man, lichen.

Is Hezbollah committed to Israel's destruction?
-- They say they are.
-- They have acquired thousands of missiles and aimed them at Israel.
-- They attacked Israel without provocation.

The evidence shows that Hezbollah is indeed working to achieve the destruction of Israel.

So, isn't Israel entitled to defend itself?

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 5:36 PM | PERMALINK

here comes ex-liberal with his head up his ass.

Posted by: nut on July 22, 2006 at 5:38 PM | PERMALINK

You might read this:

Indiscriminate attacks are those which are not directed at a specific military objective or those which use a method of attack that cannot be directed at or limited to a specific military objective. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

This includes area bombardment, where a number of clearly separated military objectives are treated as a single military objective, and where there is a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5a)

This also includes attacks where the expected incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects is excessive to the military advantage anticipated. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 5b)

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. (Protocol I, Art. 51, Sec. 4)

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)

If it becomes apparent that an objective in an attack is not a military one, or if that attack could cause incidental loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects, then the attack must be called off. (Protocol I, Art. 57)

So, if by defending yourself you mean kill civilians, the answer is no.

Posted by: Tim on July 22, 2006 at 5:39 PM | PERMALINK

11% of the elected Lebanese Parliament is Hezbollah. Hezbollah has more support in Lebanon than the Liberal Democrats have in the UK. Elimininating Hezbollah means eliminating 750,000 people in Lebanon. The Shia in Lebanon are 1.3 million. What does Israel mean when they say they want to eliminate Hezbollah?

Posted by: joejoejoe on July 22, 2006 at 5:41 PM | PERMALINK

Wow, it's 'I had to destroy the village to save it' all over again.

And we're not even providing safety for the Americans in the area.

Posted by: Crissa on July 22, 2006 at 5:41 PM | PERMALINK

Iraq acquires stealth/extremely long range missile technology so that they can bomb anywhere in the world accurately and at will. They send an e-mail to Alan Dershowitz saying that they are about to drop a 500lb warhead on his house because after all his country illegally invaded Iraq and he supported it openly. He doesn't evacuate and gets blown to pieces and it is his own fault. Sounds reasonable to me.

Posted by: blowback on July 22, 2006 at 5:42 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Dershowitz, being the kool lawyer that he is has pled everyone in south lebannon guilty to the death sentence.

Posted by: darby1936 on July 22, 2006 at 5:45 PM | PERMALINK

People have brought up Katrina already. I can't help but see the parallel between Dershowitz and those asses on the right who called Katrina victims 'lazy' and 'stupid' for not leaving when ordered to do so. Substitute 'complicit' or 'sympathetic,' and he's no better than Glen Beck.

Posted by: djangone on July 22, 2006 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINK

Mr. Dershowitz, being the kool lawyer that he is has pled everyone in south lebannon guilty to the death sentence.

Posted by: darby1936 on July 22, 2006 at 5:47 PM | PERMALINK

ex-liberal:

What makes you think it wasn't provoked?

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on July 22, 2006 at 5:51 PM | PERMALINK

What no one here seems to be addressing is Mr. D's seemingly self-evident point:

"These differences and others are conflated within the increasingly meaningless word "civilian" a word that carried great significance when uniformed armies fought other uniformed armies on battlefields far from civilian population centers. Today this same word equates the truly innocent with guilty accessories to terrorism."

The world has changed, the nature of war has changed. There are no longer civilian populations in many situations...war will now entail killing populations for their politics, pure and simple as is now happening in the Horn of Africa, (and may all us liberals wish Ethiopia well against the Islamic Courts Union in Somalia).

If ideas, (such as Hezbollah), can be seen as an infection within a population, then that population will be exterminated to contain the contagion.

This may be unhappy to say, and Dershowitz may twist and turn, but eventually this is where his thoughts end up.

So Ill ask again, when rational politics are excluded, as I see the situation with Hezbollah and all its members, then what solution do you propose?

It is fine and fun to bitch and whine against Israel, but in a practical sense, what solutions do the writers and posters here at Political Animal have to solve the problem of Hezbollah?

War in its terrible pre-modern era is one solution.

I am sincerely curious if anyone here has a better one?

With what I have seen posted so far here, Liberals don't have a chance to save the world from itself...which must be our goal. Liberalism, without some positive thought behind it, will continue to relegated to the sidelines of history, instead of the forefront where it belongs.

Best Wishes,

Traveller


Posted by: Traveller on July 22, 2006 at 5:52 PM | PERMALINK

If Dershowitz wants to think of it in terms of complicity, then he better stop pointing fingers because everytime he does, he's got at least three fingers pointing right back at him. In a democracy, the government literally derives its authority from the people, meaning that we are directly complicit (you could even say "actively participating") in whatever our country does. When our soldiers kill civilians in Iraq, it is as if we did it ourselves. In fact, citizens of democracies are much more complicit than the typical Lebanese civilian who has no direct control over what Hezbollah does. [Of course, lately it seems we have no control over what Bush does, either. So maybe that is Dershowitz's out.]

Posted by: cramer on July 22, 2006 at 5:54 PM | PERMALINK

Tim --
Your bold-faced section is a misquote of the Geneva Conventions. Section 2b of Article 57 actually says,

an attack shall be canceled or suspended if it becomes apparent that the objective is not a military one or is subject to special protection or that the attack may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm

If you go to the link and read all of Article 57, you will see that Israel is complying. E.g., Israel could fire weapons indiscriminately (which is what Hezbollsh has been doing) but instead they are making an effort to find the real terrorists and spare civilians.

By the way, today's news reports that Israeli soldiers had found a mosque in Maroun al-Ras [Lebanon] that contained stockpiles of weapons, including rockets. Two conclusions:

1. Israel is taking the trouble and additional risk to determine where the enemy weapons are.

2. It's Hezbollah who has chosen to put their weapons where they put civilians at risk.

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 5:55 PM | PERMALINK

Alan Dershowitz makes me sick to my heart. He should be a liberal. Instead he is an advocate of torture, bombing, and god knows what else.

Posted by: Libby Sosume on July 22, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

I do not know what became of the Dershowitz that I once knew.

Like so many other people, 9/11 drove him nuts.

(I'm not including the Bush administration in that group - they were nuts well before 9/11.)

Posted by: Stranger on July 22, 2006 at 5:57 PM | PERMALINK

Essentially the same concept has been used by white folks for scores of years to justify - or "justify" their treatment of black folks:

"Well, even if he didn't commit this crime, he was gonna commit some other one, so it's good the imprison/kill him."

Posted by: cdj on July 22, 2006 at 5:57 PM | PERMALINK

If Hezbollah has all these missiles why don't they use them? Are we being decieved again and told what a formidable military power they are?
We are told how many hundreds of missiles have been fired at Israel but only about 30 people have been killed. Does it make sense?
When soldiers and pilots kill defenseless civilians with tons of bombs and fire missiles at cars and kill women and children the soldiers are reduced to MURDERS. Children strapping bombs arounf their waists and commit suizide are only pathetic. Mr. Dershowitz can twist it any way he wants to, the soldiers are just KILLERS, they are safe in F16s or in tanks or helicopters. Hezbollah has nothing to bring them down.

Posted by: Renate on July 22, 2006 at 5:59 PM | PERMALINK

One word. CHUTZPAH; as the jew snickers at his latest attack of the chutzpah. Wake Up Goyim!

Chutzpah = Clever, Cunning, Guile GONE WILD !!!!!

Posted by: kolberg on July 22, 2006 at 6:04 PM | PERMALINK

If Hezbollah has all these missiles why don't they use them?

Renate, Hezbollah has now fired thousands of missiles into Israel, all aimed at civilian targets. The number of Israelis killed is not huge, because the missiles aren't too accurate, and because 20% of Israelis are living in bomb shelters.

cdj, if someone says, "I'm going to kill you", and then he gets a loaded gun, and then he starts shooting at you, you have a right to shoot back at him. Hezbollah said they want to destroy Israel, they acquired thousands of armed missiles, and they began firing those missiles indiscriminatly at Israel. Israel is fighting back, but not with indiscriminant missiles or bombing of their owns. Instead, they are making an effort to attack military targets. It's a tragedy that many innocent Lebanese are caught up in a war.

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 6:08 PM | PERMALINK

Ex-liberal,

Do you really believe all the destruction has a military purpose?

Or is it just proof to tell the lebanese people how vulnerable and defenseless they are?

Are you one who calls a bunch of cells human life and does not give a damn when you see a headless baby? But by Boltons standars the baby was killed by a man in uniform and that makes it right and oh so moral.

Posted by: Renate on July 22, 2006 at 6:10 PM | PERMALINK

cdj, if someone says, "I'm going to kill you", and then he gets a loaded gun, and then he starts shooting at you, you have a right to shoot back at him.

Yes, but you don't have the right to shoot back at his family and anyone else living in the same house as him.

By the way, it's not advisable to build so many strawmen when the weather is so hot. Could start a fire.

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

It's a tragedy that many innocent Lebanese are caught up in a war.

And hey, it's a tragedy that so many of my friends and fellow New Yorkers were caught up on 9/11 in the war between Al Qaeda and America. But since we were on the continuum of civilianality, we were all legitimate targets, right?

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:14 PM | PERMALINK

We need a new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare. A new phrase should be introduced into the reporting and analysis of current events in the Middle East: "the continuum of Dershowitzality."

Example: What a complete Dershowitz!

Posted by: Ross Best on July 22, 2006 at 6:18 PM | PERMALINK

Do you really believe all the destruction has a military purpose? Or is it just proof to tell the lebanese people how vulnerable and defenseless they are?

I believe it has a military purpose. If Israel just wanted to show the Lebanese how defenseless they are, Israel could have used aerial bombing only, which would have avoided Israeli casualties.

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 6:18 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan
Yes, but you don't have the right to shoot back at his family and anyone else living in the same house as him.

So what do you do when he grabs a civilian and hides behind her while he shoots? He's picking off your family while hiding behind a civilian? Really, what are the options at that point? Is the Hezbollian now off limits? No shooting back?

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 22, 2006 at 6:19 PM | PERMALINK

Of course not everyone represented to and by the media as a "civilian" is one. That's just common sense but whether or not it justifies anything is another argument altogether.

The forgoing posting and commentary is evidence enough that one's intelligence has to be somewhat lower than average to read Drum's postings.

By now any of you whose iq's are higher than your hat size would have known to read the part Drum leaves out or elides with "[Lengthy distinction then drawn between truly innocent civilians vs. civilians who support or sympathize with terrorist groups.]" to find out that distinctions are made that most could not disagree with. But propaganda is truth, isn't it? That's what the idiocies in the comments above, as well as the usual quality of Drum's reasoning, promise and that is all.

The war is horrible but then all wars are horrible. That is the very reason one should not engage in them, either start them or provoke them.

The war did not start the day the boys were kidnapped and will not end the day the shooting stops.

The situation is very frustrating because there is no clear cut moral judgement to be made on either side (both are engaged in the killing of innocents by intent or accident which means little to the innocent involved, of course) yet no reasonable person can come up with a solution that is fair to both sides since neither will stop until they feel somewhat safe in doing so thus it will go on no matter what you people whine about.

There are situations in this world that cannot be solved by reason or its opposite, force. I know that is hard for the ignorati to grasp but there may be no right or wrong except for the many above who just "know" deep in their gutless bowels that Israel, i.e. Jewdom, is always wrong and, for no understandable reason, wants to capture their worthless souls.

For those of you with your anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic ravings, go f**k yourselves. That's what the state of Israel is saying and with that sentiment I agree heartily.

Posted by: anonovich on July 22, 2006 at 6:20 PM | PERMALINK

And hey, it's a tragedy that so many of my friends and fellow New Yorkers were caught up on 9/11 in the war between Al Qaeda and America. But since we were on the continuum of civilianality, we were all legitimate targets, right?

Right, stefan, from their point of view w're all legitimate targets. And, from our POV, we will try to kill them before they kill us. War really is Hell.

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 22, 2006 at 6:22 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, just wait till we start applying that Dershowitz logic to the War On Drugs!

Posted by: chris on July 22, 2006 at 6:24 PM | PERMALINK

Excepting the lame and the sick, then, anyone who declines to leave their home despite Israeli orders to do so is, ipso facto, complicit with terrorism and presumably fair game once the Israeli invasion gets under way. How they get totted up after the killing is over depends on where they fall on Dershowitz's nebulous "continuum."
...
This is very clever. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever. But I wonder how he'd respond to a similarly clever and nuanced definition of the word "terrorist"?

This is more than just clever, it is necessary. There are nuanced definitions of the word "terrorist" -- is the mother of a terrorist a terrorist if she enthusiastically trains her daughter to blow up civilians? A related set of questions comes from WWII: e.g., How culpable were the engineers who drove the trains to Auschwitz? The workers who built the furnaces?

Posted by: republicrat on July 22, 2006 at 6:27 PM | PERMALINK

I have to admit, it's usually easy for me to spot the plants but I have a hard time deciding whether ex-liberal is a paid troll who purposely pretends to be dense so he can continue to spout manufactured talking points, or whether he really is that fucking stupid.

If the former, then bravo sir, well done. A job worth every penny they're paying you. If the latter...well, I'm sorry. Life can't have been easy for you with such limited intelligence.

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:28 PM | PERMALINK

Is the Hezbollian now off limits?

"Hezbollian"? Got tired of calling them "ragheads," did you?

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:30 PM | PERMALINK

I think I've heard enough about Israel from Jews, evangelical Christians and assorted other Zionists. I just don't respect their opinions.

Posted by: expatjourno on July 22, 2006 at 6:36 PM | PERMALINK

This is more than just clever, it is necessary. There are nuanced definitions of the word "terrorist" -- is the mother of a terrorist a terrorist if she enthusiastically trains her daughter to blow up civilians?

As long as we're dealing in morally obscene hypotheticals, what about the mother of an American soldier who murders an innocent Iraqi family and rapes and murders their daughter? Is that soldier's mother a rapist and murderer too because of how she raised her son?

Or what about the Israeli mother of an Israeli fighter pilot whose missiles hit a Lebanese apartment building, killing the innocent family living there? Is she a murderer too because she gave birth to a male child who would join the IDF, and therefore a legitimate target for retaliation?

By the way, just so you know "nuanced" is not a synonym for "tortured and twisted."

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:38 PM | PERMALINK

A related set of questions comes from WWII: e.g., How culpable were the engineers who drove the trains to Auschwitz? The workers who built the furnaces?

How culpable are the American factory workers who built the missile that blows up the truckload of refugees?

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:40 PM | PERMALINK

Israel's version of Land for Peace:
Kill them all, Occupy their land, and Celebrate the peace.

Sounds more like the Israeli version of "The Final Solution."


Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 22, 2006 at 6:41 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz gave up his citizenship in the reality-based world when he proposed torture warrants.

Posted by: Kija on July 22, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

How culpable are the American factory workers who built the missile that blows up the truckload of refugees?

and the citizens who voted for the politicians who approved the sale ?

Posted by: cleek on July 22, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

The ones who are left in the south are indeed the people who are too sick or too old to flee. However, before all the leaflets were dropped on the south of Lebanon, massive raids took out all of the roads and bridges.
Some villages are unreachable and thus ofcourse cannot evacuate.
I wonder if Dershowitz would feel the same way if it was his family stuck in a southern village.
By the way, i am trying to document the Israeli aggression from an insider's view here http://codedemigod.com/blog

Posted by: Alaa on July 22, 2006 at 6:42 PM | PERMALINK

Stefan
"Hezbollian"? Got tired of calling them "ragheads," did you?

You're avoiding the question. How do you deal with people who use innocent women and children as shields?

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 22, 2006 at 6:45 PM | PERMALINK

So what do you do when he grabs a civilian and hides behind her while he shoots? He's picking off your family while hiding behind a civilian? Really, what are the options at that point? Is the Hezbollian now off limits? No shooting back?

You have a choice to make: do you feel that your life and that of your family is worth more than the life of another innocent person? You may, in the heat of the moment, decide to shoot that innocent in order to get at the person hiding behind them, but you also have at that point committed murder. You may have felt you had to do it, but in the eyes of the law, it's a crime, and you should give yourself up to the law and accept its judgment and penalty. While the law allows you to protect yourself, it does not allow you to sacrifice others to protect yourself.

That, of course, is what a responsible and law-abiding person, a person who cared about morality and justice, would do. Someone who didn't care about any of those things would just shoot the innocent person, rationalize it, and accept no responsibility. You have to decide for yourself which of the two you are.

Posted by: Stefan on July 22, 2006 at 6:46 PM | PERMALINK

Same as Dershwhoreitz, Noah Feldman in the NYT.

It is a kill all the vermin movement. Part of the democracy we are bringing to the middle east, it turns out.

Posted by: razor on July 22, 2006 at 6:49 PM | PERMALINK

The "point" that people like Al don't get is that there are people who can't leave - the elderly, children, the sick, crippled, those who have no car or radio and can't hear or heed the warnings. Those will be the people who suffer in Lebanon, just as they did in New Orleans. Of course, he probably doesn't care about them anyway.

Everything is very simple and clear-cut when you are healthy, wealthy and white, isn't it???

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on July 22, 2006 at 6:51 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz isn't the only example I've noticed where people who typically would be revolted by such one-sided carnage by one nation against another nation have fashioned all sorts of rationalizations to make themselves accept something like the IDF's assault on Lebanon. We're probably all subject to ethical blind spots when the basic principles we think we adhere to prove to be inconvenient in specific situations. If all else fails, we can cast our dilemma in terms of an "accept it or perish" choice, which then makes the choice clear, no? I'm always impressed at how fiercely we'll fight to defend our shaping of the dilemma, even the choice is much less clear than we imagine.

Posted by: Taobhan on July 22, 2006 at 6:55 PM | PERMALINK

How do you deal with people who use innocent women and children as shields?

Dershowitz makes it clear that they can't be innocent if they allow themselves to be used as sheilds.

Hell is not big enough for all the Rethuglicans and NeoCons. Maybe they can be held in Gitmo until the expansion project is finished.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 22, 2006 at 6:56 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, Dershowitz is very clever, and we all know he's also very... Irish! Isn't he.

Posted by: red_neck_repub on July 22, 2006 at 6:57 PM | PERMALINK

Ex-liberal, eh? Why don't I believe that?

"Suppose a group of missiles were going to be fired from some other country that would kill everyone in the Umited States. Suppose the only way to prevent that slaughter was for you to fire a missile that would kill everyone in that country.

1. Would you fire your missile?

2. Would you feel differently if you knew that the populace of this country were in sympathy with the effort to kill every American?"

Posted by: ex-liberal


What utter bullshit. We faced that very threat for over 40 years and never fired the missiles. Israel has over 200 nuclear weapons and it has the ability to deliver them accurately. Iran has neither. And if they did, they wouldn't use them for the same reason that the Soviets didn't. Israel and the United States would carpet bomb them with nukes, and are in fact just spoiling for the chance to do it.

Posted by: Slideguy on July 22, 2006 at 7:06 PM | PERMALINK

Ex-liberal...I can't believe I'm wasting my time even commenting on this, but Hezbollah does not have the ability to kill every single person in Israel and not everyone in Lebanon wants all Israeli's dead. THAT is why it was a strawman argument.

Red State Mike. The situation you described is known as a hostage situation. Bank robbers do this all the time. Do you think we should just blow up the whole bank, hostages be damned?

Last I heard, no police force in the country thought it was justified to kill a citizen being used as a human shield by a mad shooter, and if that ever did become the norm in this country, I'd leave for a place that still had its head on straight.

Posted by: Nylund on July 22, 2006 at 7:06 PM | PERMALINK

How long would Mr. Dershowitz last on the waterboard before he agrees that he has been complicit in terrorism?

Posted by: PetervE on July 22, 2006 at 7:07 PM | PERMALINK

It's cool, nylund. I know I'm not going to change the fool's mind, but I enjoy recreational typing.

Posted by: Slideguy on July 22, 2006 at 7:08 PM | PERMALINK

Nylund
Red State Mike. The situation you described is known as a hostage situation. Bank robbers do this all the time. Do you think we should just blow up the whole bank, hostages be damned?

Last I heard, no police force in the country thought it was justified to kill a citizen being used as a human shield by a mad shooter, and if that ever did become the norm in this country, I'd leave for a place that still had its head on straight.

OK, so what should Israel do about Hezbollah, who purposely place their weapons and positions in and around civilians? Does Israel therefore not respond?

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 22, 2006 at 7:15 PM | PERMALINK

anonovich, that was complete claptrap (moaning about poor innocents, simultaneously justifying their slaughter) and since you're just one measly, lying fool it should just be dismissed without comment. Unfortunately, the bloodthirsty "deciders" of the world agree with you.

Posted by: Foundation of Mud on July 22, 2006 at 7:21 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is correct, at least to the extent of saying that the term "civilian" no longer captures the reality on the ground. You spot the civilians.

Posted by: Jeff Medcalf on July 22, 2006 at 7:22 PM | PERMALINK

Jeff Medcalf

Given that Israel has draft, your logic would enable Hezbollah to claim that even if they aim their rockets at civilians they are only targeting potential soldiers who would kill them.

Posted by: nut on July 22, 2006 at 7:32 PM | PERMALINK

First of all, I was commenting on the absurdity of the two specific arguments, not the larger topic. The next larger topic of THIS forum is whether or not civilians are complicit if they decide not to leave their homes (considering the shapes of the roads, or the fact that roads are being bombed, might be a smart move). To that point, I agree with most here that civilians are NOT inherently complicit. To the larger question of what should Israel do, first of all, I don't think anyone has suggested that Israel do nothing. Even suggesting that is yet another attempt at a weak argument by hyberbolizing the situation. If I accept such an argument, then the choices are unrestraint retaliation, civilians be damned, or do nothing, but I won't even bother trying to answer such a loaded question.

But, if you want to know, what should Israel do instead? Unfortunately, I do not have enough of the real facts. I don't know the layout of the country, where missiles are being fired from, etc. etc.

What I do know is that 500,000 people are now homeless, and at least 300 are dead and thousands more are wounded as a result of two soldiers being kidnapped.

But you want an answer don't you? Well, so does the whole world, and so far I haven't heard anything too great...but to make an analogy, just cause I don't know what the square root of 234,049 is off the top of my head, it doesn't mean I'll believe you when you tell me the answer is 12.

We can all tell you what the answer isn't, and this isn't it.

Posted by: Nylund on July 22, 2006 at 7:36 PM | PERMALINK

Ask any one of these talking assholes if they would be willing to have their body sliced to ribbons with schrapnel in a situation where Israel was "defending itself" and absolutely none of them would answer with a plain "yes".

Posted by: Maldoror on July 22, 2006 at 7:41 PM | PERMALINK

Red state Mike,

For your knowledge, in densely populated countries troups and military equipment are closely located to populated areas. They don't have the luxury like Ft. Hood Texas. Only one city, Killeen, is close by the rest are small towns like Crawford about an hour away. Since many military families live in and around Killeen they coud be considered human shields.

Do you have any real evidence that insurgents have held their own people as shields?

There are reports that Israeli soldiers have used Palestinan people as shields when they entered the home in Jenin and Ramhalla, remember?

Also, any time soldiers kill civilians they say they are terrorists, no proof is ever given. Well small children are the exception, they can hardly be terrorists.

Posted by: Renate on July 22, 2006 at 7:56 PM | PERMALINK

Israel is murderous. Yeah, they should permit terrorists to do whatever they want.

Posted by: Rich on July 22, 2006 at 7:58 PM | PERMALINK

It's a tragedy that many innocent Lebanese are caught up in a war.

But it's one that the Republicans hope to turn into electoral gold in '06!! Yeah baby!

Posted by: Irony Man on July 22, 2006 at 8:06 PM | PERMALINK

How culpable are the American factory workers who built the missile that blows up the truckload of refugees?

and the citizens who voted for the politicians who approved the sale ?

Very culpable, as are all American citizens.

Posted by: Hostile on July 22, 2006 at 8:10 PM | PERMALINK

This is just what I meant the other day about people who fall for their own bad press.

Posted by: cld on July 22, 2006 at 8:20 PM | PERMALINK

So per Alan Dershowitz, all Lebanese civilians who resist ethnic cleansing are by definition no longer "civilians" and subject to being slaughtered en masse by the Israeli army. Furthermore, all Lebanese civilians who express anger at Israel for killing/maiming their relatives or friends or at blowing up their homes are, by definition, military adversaries of Israel and ripe to be attacked.

Only those Lebanese who submit to ethnic cleansing and who, despite their grinding poverty and lack of other possessions, just get up and move away-- while, of course, smiling and cheerfully waving at the Israeli soldiers while thanking them for blowing up their homes-- can be considered true civilians. Oh, this applies to Iraqis too, while we're at it. Any Iraqi who expresses even a modicum of anger at the US is hereby to be targeted.

Thanks, Dr. Dershowitz, for clarifying so much. If only we'd had guys like you around back when the Geneva Conventions and the UN Charter were being drafted, that way all this pesky Human Rights stuff could be just conveniently pushed aside for "legitimate exceptional circumstances," i.e. whenever Israel or the US just have that periodic urge to go and blow up innocent people somewhere in the world.

Posted by: Gandar on July 22, 2006 at 8:32 PM | PERMALINK


STEPHEN KRIZ: Everything is very simple and clear-cut when you are healthy, wealthy and white, isn't it???

Well, keep in mind that for these fascists, none of this is new. Yes, they're saying now regarding Lebanon that "those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit." So too, they said, were those who stayed behind during Katrina "complicit." But by virtue of making the choice to be poor, as the fascists have always claimed--by virtue of "volunteering" to be poor--they are also complicit in their poverty. The simple truth for them is that, whether destroyed by bombs or by famine, the poor always get what's coming to them. When they don't, according to the fascist bible, it is only because they are greedily begging for handouts from those who are productive. Of course, to the fascists, "productive" means not bothering to lift a finger, except to count your fortune, collected like taxes from actual workers.


Posted by: jayarbee on July 22, 2006 at 8:33 PM | PERMALINK

2. It's Hezbollah who has chosen to put their weapons where they put civilians at risk.

But isn't that what makes this whole "War on Terror" business a huge joke? I watched Israeli tanks waltz into Lebanon this morning, with zero resistance from the Lebanese army.

We have created a military machine (handing much of it to Israel) than cannot be challenged head on. Whether Hezbollah is justified in attacking Israel is irrelevant. The fact is, there is no other way for them to take on billions of dollars of military equipment. They've had 20 years to improvise, and whether it is moral or not, they will continue to hide stockpiles in civilian areas because the only alternative is surrender. And however much we want people to bow down to our war machine, it will never happen.

We have bombs that can level cities. We have Planes that can level a neighborhood, and we bitch and moan that the other side isn't fighting fair. That's it is too hard to tell the difference between an Arab with a gun and an Arab with a white flag. What kind of pussies have we become?


Posted by: enozinho on July 22, 2006 at 8:34 PM | PERMALINK

All of you posting here still believe 9/11 was planned and carried out a rag tag bunch of Saudi nationals?? Dare to think about...maybe our government was complicit in it? Towers falling at the speed of gravity...freefall?? A fire on a few floors caused this? WTC Bldg 7, 47 stories tall which was not hit by an airplane but had a few fires, also fell at the speed of gravity...freefall?? Still believe the "official 9/11 commission's " version of the facts?

Try looking at 9/11 as a deliberate act by a small group of right wing neocons who used this event is to further their own evil world dominating agenda.

Try this and then you can make sense out of everything they have done since 9/11.

If you don't you will still be arguing about menial subjects such as Alan Derhowitz's credibility on this blog when you hear the boots and the knock on your door in the middle of the night.

Posted by: keyman12 on July 22, 2006 at 8:45 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a fascist.

LOL -- so, it comes full circle.

Posted by: GOP on July 22, 2006 at 8:46 PM | PERMALINK


GOP: LOL -- so, it comes full circle.

It hasn't come full circle at all; it's always been a circle of greed for those who are composed of pure selfishness. Do you suppose fascism is inherent in a race, nationality or religion? Or that any of those attributes exempts one from it? Dershowitz isn't a fascist because he's Jewish anymore than the axis powers were fascist for their race or religion. There are fascists everywhere, among all groups of people. Currently, in this country, nearly all of them are in or supporting the Republican party.


Posted by: jayarbee on July 22, 2006 at 8:56 PM | PERMALINK

Boy I hope the other side doesn't read that and flip the logic to apply to different categories of American civilians.

I think that they have. Hizbollah, Hamas, and Fatah intentionally target civilians who are nowhere near military targets.

stefan: How culpable are the American factory workers who built the missile that blows up the truckload of refugees? that's a good question. I think that you meant it in mockery, but it naturally belongs with the questions that I asked. How culpable am I as a supporter of Israel, and how cuplable are the Hiabollah who are trying to annihilate the Israelis?

Yesterday I posed a dilemma that I said was simple and gruesome. Hizbullah has announced its intention to destroy Israel, has accumulated a large rocket store for the purpose, and has stored the rockets among civilians, in violation of the Geneva conventions. Israel can destroy the weapons, but only by killing civilians; Israel can completely avoid killing civilians, but doing so allows Hizbollah to accumulate sufficient weaponry to destroy Israel. One way or another, there will be a slaughter of civilians: greater if Hizbollah perseveres, but probably later; lesser if Israel perseveres, but sooner.

When there are military conflicts, strict neutrality always supports one side or another. Here, strict American neutrality supports those who want to destroy Israel. If you think that's good, as did maunga yesterday, you might as well say so.

You can have complex opinions, but sometimes there are simple choices forced upon us. this is one of those times. You can support the preservation of Israel, or you can support its destruction. So far, American policy has always been to support its preservation.

Posted by: republicrat on July 22, 2006 at 9:03 PM | PERMALINK

Isn't this the definition we're already using? Most of those people in Guantanamo may not be "terrorists," per se, but they fall somewhere along the continuum of terrorocity.

After all, if you were in Afghanistan in 2001, don't you deserve to be tortured?

Posted by: Brian on July 22, 2006 at 9:07 PM | PERMALINK

"...but doing so allows Hizbollah to accumulate sufficient weaponry to destroy Israel."

What are you smoking?

Destroy Israel? With what? Come back when you have more than three functioning brain cells.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 22, 2006 at 9:13 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a sick man, and emblematic of a sick society...

Posted by: Detroit Dan on July 22, 2006 at 9:16 PM | PERMALINK

You can support the preservation of Israel, or you can support its destruction.

False dilemma.

"What are you smoking?" indeed.

Posted by: Windhorse on July 22, 2006 at 9:17 PM | PERMALINK

"Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever"

He gives sophistry a bad name.

Posted by: billmon on July 22, 2006 at 9:19 PM | PERMALINK

Republicrat,

They said all the people living in the highrises in Beirut had Katjucha rockets under their beds, that is why the Israelis destroyed the buildings. All members of Hezbollah.

Posted by: Renate on July 22, 2006 at 9:24 PM | PERMALINK

jayarbee:

Yes or no, do you personally believe keyman12's theory about 9/11 is true?

Posted by: GOP on July 22, 2006 at 9:31 PM | PERMALINK

GOP...

When did you stop beating your wife?

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 22, 2006 at 9:40 PM | PERMALINK

Since the number of Jews who have answered the questions raised by this article is zero, and the number of Jews who have ignored it is all, and it is so relevant to this thread, I feel it needs to be posted again:

Israel Fakes a Provocation (the "kidnapping" of Cpl Gilad Shalit)

The following passages in italics are from

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/26/wmid26.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/26/ixnews.html

Last night two Israeli soldiers were killed and another kidnapped in a dawn attack by Palestinian militants who tunnelled under Gazas heavily protected border.

The attackers, believed to number seven or eight, surprised Israeli forces when they appeared at first light through a tunnel on open ground 300 yards inside Israel near a kibbutz.

Gaza is built on old semi-consolidated sand dunes. It is extremely unlikely that anyone could tunnel 500, or more, yards in the sandy ground of Gaza (300 yards into Israel plus 200 yards of no-mans land plus more to the tunnel entrance), without the tunnel collapsing at some point.

They split into three groups before launching simultaneous attacks on three Israeli defensive positions - a look-out tower, plus a tank and an armoured personnel carrier, both dug in, facing Gaza.

If you were only seven or eight, would you split into three groups? If you were only two, or three, would you attack a tank over flat ground, manned by four soldiers waiting inside to kill you?

They blew open the tanks rear doors with a missile fired from point-blank range before tossing grenades inside. Two of the tank crew died and another was severely wounded but the final crew member, the gunner, was forced out of the wreckage at gunpoint.

The rear doors are blown off and a few grenades popped inside. Tanks are not made to fall apart. Blowing off the rear doors would have taken a blast sufficient to seriously hurt those inside. The grenades would have then made mincemeat of them. One wonders if it is standard practice to wear a bulletproof vest inside a hot tank. One would think that the tank would be bulletproof enough not to require such a vest. Can Israeli tanks stop bullets, or not?

Later reports, from the New York Times and Guardian, tell use that Shalit suffered only minor injuries to his abdomen and one arm, even though everyone else in the tank was severely wounded or killed. Shalit would have been less than three feet away from those killed (there is no spare room in a tank).

Israeli trackers said they found his blood-stained bulletproof vest close to the Gaza perimeter fence.

The militants force Shalit to take off his bulletproof vest and leave it close to the Gaza concentration camp fence, in order to help the Israelis with their investigation.

By the way, whose blood is it on his bulletproof vest? Since later reports indicate it wasn't his, I guess he had the other soldiers blood and guts all over him. This means that he was very close to those killed by the grenades, which means he should have been severely injured, or killed, himself.

Meanwhile, two other militants attacked a nearby concrete watchtower.... The troop carrier was also damaged in another attack but it was unoccupied. The attackers then escaped back into Gaza by cutting their way through the perimeter fence.

Interestingly, the attackers escaped easily by cutting through the (electrified) perimeter fence, yet cutting through the perimeter fence in order to get in, was so hard to do, that they burrowed through half a mile of sandy ground instead. Something wrong with this story, perhaps?

After all this commotion, the soldiers in all the nearby Gaza concentration camp guard-towers, manage to miss a few Arabs running the 300 yards, over flat ground, back to the perimeter fence, miss them when they cut through it, and miss them running across no-mans land to safety. Any why, you may ask, did they not return through the tunnel they had painstakingly dug? Perhaps, they wanted to prove the total incompetence of the Israeli soldier.

If you believe this sad tale, I have a bridge to sell you.

The Hamas political leadership sought to distance itself from the incident last night when a spokesman said it had no knowledge of the fate of Cpl Shilat. Ghazi Hamad, a spokesman, said: "We are calling on the resistance groups, if they do have the missing soldier to protect his life and treat him well."

Yes, the Hamas political leadership had no idea of the fate of Cpl Shilat, as the story is a total fabrication.

If you are not already convinced that the whole story is a fabrication, ask yourself; What were the four Israeli soldiers doing in the tiny confines of that dug-in tank? Ask your self; How long were they going to continue sitting in that tank? All day perhaps, or till they roasted in the desert sun? Or, till another group of four took over on the next shift? And of course, having four soldiers in just one tank, wont provide a defense, so there will have to be hundreds of tanks and hundreds of soldiers all sitting in these tanks,...

all waiting,... all waiting,... all waiting,.... for exactly what?

Waiting for Palestinian children to throw stones at them, perhaps? Perhaps, waiting attentively for militants to dig a half mile tunnel through sandy soil, pop up, and rush them over flat ground, but not attentively enough to see them approach? Perhaps, they were waiting for the Egyptian army to materialize, Star Trek like, from their bases hundreds of miles away on the other side of the Suez canal? I dont know,... you tell me why?

Yes, the story is a total fabrication. A fake provocation to start a war.

Posted by: watcher on July 22, 2006 at 9:42 PM | PERMALINK

When it comes to Israel and "terrorism" (a subjective term at best, usually "defined" by the most powerful), Dershowitz must simply be identified as what he is: a fascist. To him, Arabs are not human and their lives have no reality, so it really doesn't matter what happens to them. Why he is still taken seriously, or -- heaven forfend -- respected as a "thinker" is beyond me.

Posted by: mamazboy on July 22, 2006 at 9:43 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz has no credibility on this issue. He has been posting hysterical posts on Huffington for the past week.

The international press is awash with reports and photographs of killed and maimed Lebanese children, never mind adults.

Dershowitz is not level-headed about this issue. And I am being polite.

Posted by: Devil's Advocate on July 22, 2006 at 9:44 PM | PERMALINK

That's exactly the same rationale that Republican Satan-worshippers used to denounce the poor of New Orleans. Dershowitz is an immoral bastard.

Posted by: Michael on July 22, 2006 at 10:04 PM | PERMALINK

Al, do I have to beat the shit out of you again?

Neither of us liked it much (I can't stand seeing grown men cry) so I urge you to just pipe down.

Posted by: Sex Packet on July 22, 2006 at 10:05 PM | PERMALINK

Renate
For your knowledge, in densely populated countries troups and military equipment are closely located to populated areas. They don't have the luxury like Ft. Hood Texas. Only one city, Killeen, is close by the rest are small towns like Crawford about an hour away. Since many military families live in and around Killeen they coud be considered human shields.

In time of war, they'd be evacuated. In fact, I was in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis (2 years old). My mother and sister and I were evacuated.

Hezbollah goes beyond placing bases in populated areas, and places their weapons dispersed in an amongst their population.

Do you have any real evidence that insurgents have held their own people as shields?

It has been widely reported in Iraq and Palestine. A quick google on "hide behind women" gives...

Del Gaudio said he made a tough call after a roadside bomb killed four of his men in April. While securing the scene, he was shot at by a machine gun in a follow-up attack. When he aimed his weapon to return fire, he saw that the gunmen had a line of children standing in front of them and two men filming with video cameras. He held fire until the children moved out of the way but was shot in his hand, which was only inches from his face.

There are reports that Israeli soldiers have used Palestinan people as shields when they entered the home in Jenin and Ramhalla, remember?

No

Also, any time soldiers kill civilians they say they are terrorists, no proof is ever given. Well small children are the exception, they can hardly be terrorists.

It's tough when the terrorists do not wear identifiable uniforms. Not all children, for sure.

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 22, 2006 at 10:09 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowotz is always ready, willing, and able to call for torturing or killng Arabs in the interests of supporting Israel. And to call anyone who notices this an anti-semite.

Posted by: Laney on July 22, 2006 at 10:11 PM | PERMALINK

Nazi Germany thought that all the Jews were in a cabal against the Arayans. They put these people in concentration camps and murdered them. When we dehumanize groups of people it becomes easy to justify slaughter. In the interest of our own humanity, we would do well to reserve judgment of whole populations. The method of the slaughter of civilians during WWII was especially horrific, but the fact is, that the victims then and now are equally dead.

When Israel declares "Never Again", may we presume to apply that conviction to benefit all peoples? I had always believed that to be so. When Alan Dershowitz spouts off, perhaps he is trying to assuage a conflicted conciense. He should work out these issues silently as he does his cause no good by pronouncing Israel absolved of the blood of innocents. If Mr. Dershowitz sincerely believes the missions is necessary to Israel's safety, regardless of whose life is lost, he should take responsibility for his convictions. He does not sound firm in his protestations, rather he seems self serving.

Posted by: Boudica on July 22, 2006 at 10:13 PM | PERMALINK

George W. Bush could instantly boost his approval ratings by 40-50 percentage points and leave one of the most profound legacies of any American president by offering to meet face-to-face with Olmert and Nasrallah and negotiate a quick cessation of the fighting in the broken streets of southern Beirut. He could humble himself in a simple act of contrition by washing their feet, point out that the three great religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam make us all children of Abraham and insist that we all must share, in peace, the only earth God has given us.

Or, he could refuse to meet with anyone, dig in his cowboy boots and foolishly insist that one side are terrorists and the other is not, cynically urging restraint while condoning the massive bombardment of a city full of innocent people. This course of action will lead, inevitably, to Mr. Bush being one of the most unpopular and reviled presidents in American history and America's reputation as the "shining city on the hill", in Ronald Reagan's words, being hereafter tarnished.

Is there a very profound moral lesson to be learned here for all of us???

Posted by: Stephen Kriz on July 22, 2006 at 10:20 PM | PERMALINK

so now civilians are not innocent victims, they are complicit co-conspirators.

Pardon my while I projectile vomit.

I have been comparing these people to the Nazis since 2000. My apologies to the Nazis.

We have sunk to new, abysmal lows

anyone who isnt' sickened by this transparent and disgusting effort to whitewash and VILIFY the thousads of innocents who have been killed and will be killed, should have their head examined.

I guess by that logic, the people who were blown up in the trade center when PNAC blew the buildings, were "complicit" for failing to heed orders to leave, regardless of their circumstances.

By the same token, people who failed to leave New Orleans when Katrina hit, again, regardless of why (sick, crippled, without means to leave or a place to go) ... whatever, they also were "complicit"

Those damned civilians. Always putting their bodies right in the path of our bombs ... probably done to make us look bad...you know...acts of unilateral warfare.

PEOPLE WAKE THE FUCK UP. THIS IS HOW CIVILIZED SOCIETIES BECOME NAZI GERMANY. THE CHANGES IN THE LANGUAGE, SOME SUBTLE, SOME NOT SO SUBTLE, INTENDED TO ACCLAMATE YOU SHEEP TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE.

SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS IS NOT "COLLATERAL DAMAGE" OR JUSTIFIED IN ANY WAY.

IT'S CALLED MURDER. IT'S BEEN CALLED MURDER FOR CENTURIES. THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO CHANGE THE "LEXICON."

Posted by: marblex on July 22, 2006 at 10:21 PM | PERMALINK

Stephen Kriz
George W. Bush could instantly boost his approval ratings by 40-50 percentage points and leave one of the most profound legacies of any American president by offering to meet face-to-face with Olmert and Nasrallah and negotiate a quick cessation of the fighting in the broken streets of southern Beirut.

Don't you think he should meet with the Lebanese Head of State? Meeting with Nasrallah would be like negotiating directly with the mayor of Paris, or more aptly meeting with members of the Sicilian Mafia.

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 22, 2006 at 10:33 PM | PERMALINK

Alan Dershowitz has sure gone off the deep end. Isn't this the kind of insanity associated with syphilis? Maybe he should get himself checked for it.

Posted by: rnato on July 22, 2006 at 10:41 PM | PERMALINK

Let's take a closer look at the "casualty" numbers:
LINK

Posted by: seesdifferent on July 22, 2006 at 10:44 PM | PERMALINK

Red State Mike,

When Katrina hit our officials were incompetent to evacuate people from NOLA, how would they be able to evacuate millions in more populated areas, where would they evacuate them to? Remember in Lebanon the roads and bridges and airports were bombed first then the people were told to leave. To where, how, did they have better transportation than the people from NO?

All the military US and Israeli know is to bomb the hell out of defenseless countries. See Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, Gulf 1, Lebanon. None of these countries were able to shoot down the bombers, no air defense. Afghanistan was nothing but rubble to start but the american armee bombed it to dust, to chicken to fight the Taliban in sneakers on Toyota pick up trucks. They killed plenty of women and children and then they cry foul if a soldier gets killed. Nothing to be proud of. The best Army in the world.

I never forget, after a week or so of bombing Afghanistan Rumsfelld said:" Now we are in control of the air space" What a joker.

Posted by: Renate on July 22, 2006 at 10:47 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a schmuck, and easily dismantled in any forum. He's an obvious partisan, in this case paid in full for Israel.

Posted by: Jimm on July 22, 2006 at 10:53 PM | PERMALINK

... nuance of warfare...Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit...

Nothing is more appalling and cowardly than moral sophistry in the midst of war. I imagine men like Alan Dershowitz are not at all familiar with the moral calculus of totalitarianism and, I imagine, they have spent little time reading the cozy philosophical validations of human butchery in the 20th century.

This is a clear, frank statement of the case for dehumanization. It is the parlor argument whose apotheosis is the concentration camp.

It is even sadder to follow our resident Holocaust denier.

Posted by: bellumregio on July 22, 2006 at 11:04 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, yes, indeed Mr. Dershowitz. And as for all those dead Lebanese children, well if they stayed with their parents then they are objectively pro-Hezbollah and deserve to be ripped to shreds by precision bombs. Serves the little terrorist bastards right!

Posted by: The Fool on July 22, 2006 at 11:13 PM | PERMALINK

If I thought that we were living under an oppressive government(Bush admin) and suddenly European soldiers came rushing in, removed Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the conservatives, but in the process these soldiers killed my wife, kids, my parents, in-laws, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, cousins, and perhaps even grandparents or grandchildren, people I loved, then I would hate and despise those Europeans no less than if they were conservative Bush supporters who killed them. My loved ones are dead either way. They expect me to be greatful? Not while I read that Americans are treated like third rate persons in Europe, held in gulags and tortured regardless if they were guilty or innocent? Are insulted and mocked because of our culture and appearance, are treated like animals by Europeans who proclaim it better to just nuke our leaders and convert us?
As far as I am concerned if you take away what is vital to me pesonally then I don't care if you gave me back something in return. There are things more valuable to me right now than just having leaders I respect. To think that by removing Bush and Cheney, while wrecklessly exterminating my entire family is going to be an good tradeoff in my opinion you are fucking insane. I will hunt you all down and kill you.

So tell me how what is happening in Iraq and Lebanon is somehow going to help us in the long run? All we're doing is breeding tomorrows insurgents and terrorists who will all be different than most of those who hated us prior to 9/11. These new terrorist will hate us cause we murdered their loved ones. They will be targeting us out of revenge.

I might not respect religious extremism, but I respect revenge of murdered loved ones.

MYOB'
.

Posted by: MYOB on July 22, 2006 at 11:14 PM | PERMALINK

two years ago, i heard the same reasoning from a militant muslim acquaintance, who was defending the suicide bombers blowing themselves up at weddings.

so Dersh has finally adopted the moral rationale of muslim terrorists?

Posted by: joe in oklahoma on July 22, 2006 at 11:16 PM | PERMALINK

Is our resident Holocaust denier any worse than those posting about our own government's involvement in planning 9/11?

Posted by: GOP on July 22, 2006 at 11:17 PM | PERMALINK

"The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. "

Maybe the Israeli citizens should be given well-publicized notice to leave northern Israel so that the Palestinians could move back to their land. The Israelis could come to Oklahoma and have just as much sand as they have now.

Bartcop, drunk on Chinaco as usual, in Knuckledrag USA

Posted by: bartcop on July 22, 2006 at 11:33 PM | PERMALINK

"The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. "

Maybe the Israeli citizens should be given well-publicized notice to leave northern Israel so that the Palestinians could move back to their land. The Israelis could come to Oklahoma and have just as much sand as they have now.

Bartcop, drunk on Chinaco as usual, in Knuckledrag USA

Posted by: bartcop on July 22, 2006 at 11:34 PM | PERMALINK

It is important to understand that THE JEWS STARTED BOTH THE MASSACRES IN GAZA AND LEBANON.

IN GAZA they fabricated a (clearly false) story in their newspapers about a "kidnapped" soldier.

IN LEBANON they sent troops into a disputed piece of SYRIA (Shebaa Farms) knowing full well how Hizbollah would respond to an intrusion by Jew troops into Arab lands. Hizbollah responded exactly as they have in the past. No surprise here. The Jews used this as an excuse for their pre-planned Nazi attack on Lebanon.

In short: THE JEWS STARTED BOTH THE MASSACRES IN GAZA AND LEBANON.

Posted by: watcher on July 22, 2006 at 11:42 PM | PERMALINK

I cannot believe that Senator Hillary Clinton is supporting the Israeli atrocities against Lebanese civilians. A pandering political liberal neocon, whoring for the NY jewish vote.

I implore all good Democrats to not support those running under the Democratic banner who support the policies of the right wing Neocon Bushistas. This includes Senators Lieberman and Clinton. Time to turn the party around and bring sanity back to the spineless pink tutu wearing Dems we work for, who should be working to represent us.

Posted by: Bartcop on July 22, 2006 at 11:55 PM | PERMALINK

Renate
All the military US and Israeli know is to bomb the hell out of defenseless countries.

Don't you think it is kind of stupid, then, for the "defenseless" countries to go around attacking their neighbors? I mean, if Lebanon is defenseless, why on earth are they lobbing Katushya rockets at the Israelis and abducting soldiers from across the border? Duh.

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 23, 2006 at 12:03 AM | PERMALINK

if Lebanon is defenseless, why on earth are they lobbing Katushya rockets

Lebanon is doing no such thing, you fucking retard.

Posted by: cleek on July 23, 2006 at 12:12 AM | PERMALINK

I also implore all good Democrats to not support those running under the Democratic banner who support the policies of the right wing Neocon Bushistas, Senators Lieberman and Clinton included. Stay home on Election Day if need be!

Posted by: GOP on July 23, 2006 at 12:14 AM | PERMALINK

"...if Lebanon is defenseless, why on earth are they lobbing Katushya rockets at the Israelis..."

Mikey, it's way past your bedtime. Turn off the computer and go to bed like a good little boy or you will have to take a time out.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 23, 2006 at 12:15 AM | PERMALINK

Don't you think it is kind of stupid, then, for the "defenseless" countries to go around attacking their neighbors? I mean, if Lebanon is defenseless, why on earth are they lobbing Katushya rockets at the Israelis and abducting soldiers from across the border?

When our military fights pitched battles with Sunnis and Shia in the same day in Iraq -- the helplessness of the Iraqi government is excused and defended.

When Kurdish rebels cross the disputed "border" into Turkey and attack "their neighbors" -- the helplessness of the Iraqi government is excused and defended.

Yet Hezbollah kidnaps Israelis soldiers so they can barter to get some of their soldiers back -- the helplessness of the Lebanese government is no excuse and they are held to account to the tune of the utter destruction of their economy and infrastructure for years to come and hundreds of civilian lives.

Posted by: Windhorse on July 23, 2006 at 12:20 AM | PERMALINK

Whack a NeoCon for Christ:

Yes or no, do you personally believe keyman12's theory about 9/11 is true?

Posted by: GOP on July 23, 2006 at 12:21 AM | PERMALINK

Windhorse:

Have you ever watched Mel Gibson's "The Patriot"?

Posted by: GOP on July 23, 2006 at 12:23 AM | PERMALINK

Red State Mike, responding to the fact that we have military families and civilians living in or in close proximity to our military bases, said

In time of war, they'd be evacuated.

But according to the Bush regime, this is a time of war already -- America, they say, is at war right now. And yet the families and civilians living on or near our bases have not been evacuated. Are we to conclude from this that our military is using them as human shields? Are they therefore legitimate military targets?

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 12:42 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz's toolish nonsense is VERY close to one of the U.S. troops' most common interpretations of the "free fire zone" on the ground in Vietnam. Announce you are coming and anyone left when you get there who didn't leave their family property and only means of livelihood to go to a razor-wired concentration camp must be a collaborator--they're fair game. Great to see we've made such a wonderful advance over the last fifty years.

Posted by: Mark Anderson on July 23, 2006 at 12:48 AM | PERMALINK

"The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. "

I ask again, by what legal authority can a foreign army give notice of any sort to the citizens of another sovereign nation to leave their homes? If the Lebanese Army gave notice to Israeli civilians to leave northern Israel, would we expect them to listen? Of course not, so why should the Lebanese?

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 12:51 AM | PERMALINK

I wish it were possible to respond to Dershowitz simply by recalling the phrase "free-fire zones". (During the Vietnam War, the US and ARVN designated VC-controlled areas of the country as "free-fire zones" and ordered all peasants to leave; anyone still inside the zone could be shot on sight. The fact that these peasants had no possessions other than their rice fields, faced starvation or a miserable hand-to-mouth existence in refugee shantytowns if they abandoned their villages, and might never get their land back again was no excuse; if they stayed, they were presumptive VC supporters, and their lives were forfeit. Such tactics, of course, turned a lot of peasants into VC supporters.)

But in the proto-fascist environment of current American discourse, it seems every argument over Vietnam actually has to be refought again. We were there in a good cause! VC-supporting peasants were our enemies! It was the communists' fault for hiding amongst the population! And so we lurch back into the squalid quagmire, and the slopeheads and hadjis die again.

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 12:51 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, Mark Anderson beat me to it. Yay Mark! Wish we were talking about something more upbeat though.

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 12:53 AM | PERMALINK

In 2001 an unknown, morally retarded teacher of ethnic studies, Ward Churchill, was properly widely criticized for questioning the innocence of the civilian killed in the World Trade Center. (He continues to pay the consequences of that outburst.) Churchill's argument was that they supported, explicitly or tacitly, the policies of the US government & that those policies amounted to terrorism. He called the civilian dead 'little Eichmanns.'

Now comes a well-known professor of law, Alan Dershowitz, who calls the civilian dead in Lebanon - and those whose killing is now being planned - 'complicit' in the crimes for which they have died or will die. He justifies, in some measure, the murder of civilians.

Assignment: Name three ways Dershowitz's claim differs in point of moral character from Ward Churchill's. Second assignment: Name three ways the public response to Dershowitz's statement can be expected to differ from what (more or less satisfyingly) came down on Churchill's head.

Universally accepted moral standards for the treatment of civilians in wartime don't & shouldn't depend on empirical or moral judgments about the character of combatant parties, whether the US government or Hizballah.

This is of course not the first time Dershowitz has set to work undermining civilized values. It's a habit he has. Why? As Drum says, he's clever enough, and surely knows what he's doing.

He does it because he thinks the interests he supports are best served by the erosion of civilized values. He knows perfectly well that many people - witness the comments here- will be scandalized by what he says. But this is the way taboos are broken. What was previously unsayable becomes merely controversial, and then routine. Thus we proceed down the path from civilization to barbarism.

One doesn't have to be a raging Spenglerian to feel a twinge of regret, and shame.

Posted by: KH on July 23, 2006 at 12:55 AM | PERMALINK

Hey, there was no holocaust. The Jews were ordered to leave and refused. Dershowitz surely understands his argument works both ways?

"This is very clever. Alan Dershowitz, after all, is nothing if not very clever."

I don't think that words means what you think it does.

Posted by: Mario on July 23, 2006 at 1:01 AM | PERMALINK

The white Rhodesians in Rhodesia and the colonial Portuguese in Mozambique used the same methods of treating any civilians who had not evacuated as enemy to be shot on sight during their war with Frelimo and ZANLA African guerrillas in the 1970s. Here from Alexandra Fuller's book "Scribbling the Cat" is a former soldier in the Rhodesian Light Infantry, who fought alongside the Portuguese forces in Mozambique, describing the effect this had on the native population:

This was all under martial law when I was here...All these villagers had to clear out during that time. Some of them went to the cities, or across the borders in Malawi, Rhodesia, and so on, but others went and hide in the shateen [the bush]. We'd come across their little camps, just a little bush structure -- like a tent made out of branches...Then they'd walk miles and miles to their gardens -- they'd never sleep close to where they ate and grew their crops. And if we found their gardens, we'd destroy those too. Those poor buggers. They lived like animals the whole time. When they could, they caught rats and snakes and ate those. They ate roots and leaves and berries. They were starving and shit scared. They were shit scared of us and they were shit scared of [the Portuguese] and they were shit scared of the [guerrillas]. Then there was always a pretty good chance of standing on an antipersonnel mine. Imagine! One hundred and ten percent shit scared morning, noon, and night.

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 1:12 AM | PERMALINK

Our media and government is not only controlled by corporate interests, it's controlled by pro-Israeli corporate interests. Politicians who oppose Israel in any minute way are targeted by the Israeli lobby. We are, therefore, no longer a democracy and Israel has fully descended to the level of a fascist state.

Bartcop...I agree, we can not afford a weak opposition in these times.

Whack a NeoCon for Christ....I love you.

Posted by: Illinois Independant on July 23, 2006 at 1:18 AM | PERMALINK

Isn't what Dershowitz proposes what the U.S. military did in Fallujah in November 2004? Menaced and surrounded it, encouraged a mass evacuation (without letting some young men out), and then treated everyone who remained as a combatant? It was a free fire zone.

Posted by: Nell on July 23, 2006 at 1:23 AM | PERMALINK

It's no less significant for being a cliche that political elites traditionally have shown greater commitment to liberal values than the popular classes who were enfranchised by them. (Thus the famous unwillingness of public opinion to approve of Bill of Rights when presented with it unlabeled.) Liberal values have been secure to the degree that political elites have supported them, sometimes in the face of popular ambivalence.

Now we see a change in the ethos of the political elite (which itself has undergone radical change in the last half-century). Dershowitz, a crass enough fellow in his own right, becomes significant in the context of a gathering repudiation - now tacit, now explicit - of the traditional liberal values by the political elite itself. Dershowitz is shrewd enough not to go beyond what the political class deems the limits of acceptable discourse, and in any case if he weren't he'd be utterly marginalized.

But he's not deemed beyond the pale, like a Ward Churchill or even a Noam Chomsky. He's deemed merely controversial, perhaps even thought-provoking, and his claims are deemed worthy of serious consideration.

What he says is of less significance in itself than the fact that the political class doesn't relegate him & his claims to the same limbo as Holocaust deniers, defenders of Serbian irredentism & assorted other moral deviants.

The deafening absence of disapprobation makes one wonder how many members of the political class discreetly agree with Dershowitz on the subject of murdering (Lebanese) civilians.

Posted by: KH on July 23, 2006 at 1:35 AM | PERMALINK

Isn't it about time that Dershowitz is called by his true appelation, fascist genocidal maniac. If anyone ever deserves to be called the "k" word...

Posted by: natural cynic on July 23, 2006 at 1:37 AM | PERMALINK

Boudica said: "Nazi Germany thought that all the Jews were in a cabal against the Arayans. They put these people in concentration camps and murdered them."

I know it is hard to accept but, the holocaust AS DESCRIBED by Jews never happened.

It was hard for me, even though intellectually, I realized I had been LIED to, I could not really accept this for a long time, as its consequences were too frightening.

It is important to look at the holocaust evidence, or lack thereof, for yourself, but one indication that the story you have been told is a fable is this:

These are photos of plaques at Auschwitz (click on the links to have a look):

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 4 million "victims".

This plaque was on display at Auschwitz from 1948 until about 1990 (note the "4 million" victims).

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims".
Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims" (Deutsch).

These plaques are currently on display at Auschwitz (English and German).

Note the dramatically reduced number of victims, now only 1.5 million (anderthalb millionen).

A casual reduction in the number of deaths by some 2.5 million.

Deaths at Auschwitz drop by a whopping 2.5 million, but 6,000,000 dead Jews, remains the same.

Why did you never hear about the Jew reduction of deaths at Auschwitz. I mean a reduction from 4 million to 1.5 million is quite significant, you must agree.

If Jews can reduce the number of dead from 4 million to 1.5 million, then why do they jail people like David Irving for just questioning the numbers who died.

There are many, many more problems with the HolyCo$t fable, but one must take one small step at a time.

Posted by: watcher on July 23, 2006 at 1:40 AM | PERMALINK

If anyone ever deserves to be called the "k" word...

If that means what I think it means, you can go fuck yourself, you nasty little piece of shit.

Can't we do something about these filthy anti-Semitic posts? It's getting tiresome to wade through this garbage all the time.

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 1:45 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz basically wrote an anti-Semitic post without knowing it. His argument seems to be that the Jews deserved it. And they published this garbage in the Times.

Posted by: Mario on July 23, 2006 at 1:54 AM | PERMALINK

Let's see, now it's poor little David against three Goliaths armed to the teeth with spears, swords and daggers. All Poor little David has is his uzi and a couple of clips. And Smmy behind that rock with more ammo.

Posted by: natural cynic on July 23, 2006 at 2:00 AM | PERMALINK

To those intent on finding damning parallels with earlier instances of indiscriminant killing: the difference is in none of those cases - the Rhodesians, the Portuguese in Mozambique, the Americans in Vietnam or Fallujah, whoever - was there a serious atempt to publicly & formally abandon four centuries of the law of war. Even if the facts are as described, they happened in the face or behind the back of a continued formal recognition of existing law.

To do otherwise would have been unthinkable, a repudiation of a central element of the self-understanding of Western civilization. There was surely an element of hypocrisy, as well as more than a few "you can't handle the truth" speeches, but there's a difference between violating a principle that you continue to recognize and repudiating the principle itself.

Civilians have been and will continue to be killed in Lebanon and elsewhere; it's to be deplored, but hardly an historical novelty. Dershowitz's innovation isn't the killing itself, but his shameless public justification of it, which openly repudiates a nontrivial part of our civilization's legal & moral heritage. It's not the barbarism that's new, it's the public revelling in it, the attempt, against all tradition & precedent, to elide the fact that what we're watching is a crime.


Posted by: H on July 23, 2006 at 2:01 AM | PERMALINK

Hezbollah has called publicly for "regime change" in Israel.

Only George W. Bush is allowed to call for regime change.

Posted by: islmfaoscist on July 23, 2006 at 2:08 AM | PERMALINK

Interesting posts.Dershowist shouldn't even bother - it is a given that he will be quoted out of context and villified. One has to wonder if poor Mexicans who are crossing our border started bombing us and the Mexican governement did nothing how long it would take befor most of these posters started calling for Mexican blood. Now we just want to lock them up.

Posted by: Charles Yaker on July 23, 2006 at 2:26 AM | PERMALINK

I'd like to point out that "the Jews" aren't doing shit. "The Israelis" are the ones doing the things they are rightly being pilloried for in this post and this thread.

It works both ways that way too.

Posted by: Anonymous on July 23, 2006 at 2:33 AM | PERMALINK

Holocaust denial? Seriously?

How many ways does it need to be said that fascists of all stripes can fuck right off.

Good post and some comments, though.

Posted by: Auguste on July 23, 2006 at 2:38 AM | PERMALINK

Deshowitz is arguing that Nazi Germany was justified in killing all Jews that came under their control.

After all, in 1933 Jewish leaders around the world declared war on Germany and declared all Jews to be soldiers in their war. Later, Hitler warned the Jews that if they managed to make a world war of it, they would be wiped out.

Therefore, using Dershowitz' logic, it is the Jewish leaders and the Jews in German occupied territory who are to blame for any Jewish deaths in WWII. They started it AND then they were warned. Inexplicably they failed to heed the warning, probably because they were all fifth columnists/spies.

Now we know the truth, Gentiles weren't to blame for the Holocaust! No Jews were murdered, they simply got what was coming to them as an enemy fifth column/spy outfit. Spies don't get "murdered"; they get exterminated or wiped out or snuffed, but the death of a spy is always a good thing.

Posted by: Doug on July 23, 2006 at 2:43 AM | PERMALINK

Before we convict the Israeli government for Alan Dershowitz's sins, we might perhaps take care to see whether it really conducts (& justifies) itself as he recommends. His pronouncements are not infrequently more radical than the actual trend of Israeli policy, and his prominence may say more about the state of American political discourse, & the moral health of our political class, than about Israel. And this wouldn't be the first time he made Israelis wonder what they've done to deserve this kind of defender.

His claim does at least have the virtue of acknowledging that the conflict isn't only with a terrorist organization: it's with & against a whole people. It's a war of peoples. That's the real burden of Israel's current position.

Remember, as Barak says in Newsweek, in 1982 the Israelis "were accepted with perfumed rice & flowers by the Shia in the south. It was [their] presence there that created Hizbullah." The subsequent decades created more than a discrete terrorist organization; it made enemies of a whole people.

Is the solution to that very real problem now, as Dershowitz suggests, to wage war on that whole people? And isn't there a word for that?

Posted by: H on July 23, 2006 at 2:51 AM | PERMALINK

Watcher,

You're absolutely right. Nothing but a big lie.

Jewfascists might point out evidence of gas chambers, crematoria, and the sworn testimony of camp guards as "proof," but those of us who haven't bought the great lie can see these for the Zionist fabrications they are.

I mean, just go to Europe. If the Holocaust actually happened, then why are there so many large and thriving Jewish communities in such places as Poland, Germany, and Russia where they have existed for hundreds of years undisturbed?

/sarcasm

Fucker.

Posted by: SBMike on July 23, 2006 at 3:08 AM | PERMALINK

How many Israeli Jews were terrorists against the British in 1945-46, if we follow Dershowitz?

Posted by: SocraticGadfly on July 23, 2006 at 3:10 AM | PERMALINK

How many Israeli Jews were terrorists against the British in 1945-46, if we follow Dershowitz?

Israel just recently celebrated the King David Hotel bombing and posted a plaque blaming the victims for not getting out when they were warned.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2277717,00.html

Israel is a nation of terrorists, founded in terrorism and practicing terrorism daily as a matter of state policy.

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. - Revelations 2:9

Posted by: Doug on July 23, 2006 at 3:20 AM | PERMALINK

Enozinho:

"We have bombs that can level cities. We have Planes that can level a neighborhood, and we bitch and moan that the other side isn't fighting fair. That's it is too hard to tell the difference between an Arab with a gun and an Arab with a white flag. What kind of pussies have we become?"


m.n.f.c.o.t.t.

Posted by: denizen of the electropolis on July 23, 2006 at 3:26 AM | PERMALINK

- You can support the preservation of Israel, or you can support its destruction. -

False dilemma.

Drama queens?

Posted by: denizen of the electropolis on July 23, 2006 at 3:37 AM | PERMALINK

The deafening absence of disapprobation

Well, this thread, and many like it, are themselves the disapprobation. But as for the fact that he's still getting printed in the Times, what he's saying wouldn't be noteworthy or even eye-catching from any of a hundred neocon imperial stormtroopers, whether Christian, Jewish, or the odd Hindu. The reason Dershowitz is newsworthy and gets a column to expound his filth is that he's a famous defense lawyer and former Bill of Rights maximalist. He gets printed, and elicits a special sort of outrage and antipathy from (us) liberals, because it would once have been assumed that he would reflexively support human rights and international law, as part of the late 70s/80s/90s liberal consensus that linked individual rights within the US (whether 1st, 4th, 5th or 14th Amendment ones) to the Geneva Conventions and international law.

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 3:43 AM | PERMALINK

It causes me great pain to say it, but Israel has been driven mad by its own logic. They have built a formidable military force, in order to defend themselves against the conventional armies of the region, which they have whipped badly every time they have met. They decided long ago on a preemptive war strategy, which was needed in '67, and they decided on disproportionate reaction. Capture a soldier, and we don't attack the kidnappers, we smash the infrastructure of a modern city.

The sad thing is, the Bush administration has adopted that as the policy of the United States. What is perhaps justifiable, although marginally, for a small country surrounded by hostility, is completely monstrous when adopted by the most powerful country on the face of the earth.

Posted by: Jim H. on July 23, 2006 at 3:47 AM | PERMALINK

I am no big Dershowitz fan.
However, there is no doubt that Muslim terrorist groups hide behind civilians. So if Israel is going after terrorists, they are going to hit civilians. If they *don't* go after terrorists, the terrorists go after Israeli civilians.

Either way, civilians lose.

As for this emphasis... "half were children" ... this is no bit surprise considering families have 9, l0, ll, more children.

Posted by: clem on July 23, 2006 at 3:52 AM | PERMALINK

dershewitz will always side with israel.maybe one of the solutions to the middleast problems would be to divorce ourselves from israel,avoid an entangling alliance,but jews in this country can`t be objective.alligeance to the u.s. or israel,pick one.

Posted by: bob johnson on July 23, 2006 at 5:19 AM | PERMALINK

If Dershowitz is so strongly in favor of the indiscriminant Israeli attacks on Lebanon, maybe he should go to Israel and volunteer for its IDF. I'm sure that they can use a decent typist now and then.

On a related note, Dershowitz is a jackass, and long has been one.

Posted by: raj on July 23, 2006 at 5:45 AM | PERMALINK

proporderance

= preponderance. SORRY!

Posted by: notthere on July 23, 2006 at 6:14 AM | PERMALINK

Israeli/Katrina analogies are no good. Why? Because you can't stop a hurricane.Israel CAN stop killing civilians,though.Dershatron does not mention anything about the dead children....are they terrorists,too?
The Bush admnistration would squawk about "the international community" when it came to Iran or North Korea;now that "the international community" is focusing on Israel,the "IC" is ignored.
Actually,it's us powerless taxpayers who are also complicit,because those are our tax $$$ that provided Israel with the F16s ,,the Abrams tanks,the Apache helos,and...oh yeah,BOMBS!
The Bush administration is actually HELPING TO KILL LEBANESE BY SENDING ISRAEL JET FUEL AND BOMBS . Talk about complicity! How WARPED is this?!? Remember when the fingers were pointed at Saddam for providing 25K to Palestinian suicide bombers? After this, I don't want to hear about Iran and/or Syria providing anything to Hizbollah.

Posted by: Passenger57 on July 23, 2006 at 6:30 AM | PERMALINK

At this point it does not really matter who relativizes what. What most people have lost site of here, just as in 2003, is the fact that were again being led into a war that could have been prevented. Evereyone of us knows that there is absolutely NO justification for the non-descript killing of civilians, which is what Israel is doing. Of course the lebanese i.e. Hezbolla share part of the blame for the situaution.

If were sending Rice to the region for effect, she should be going over there with "Demands" to stop this stupidity immediately. Instead shes going to prance over there and not say JACK accept (we suport whatever Israel decies to do) -yes, thatll be fine with us.

And in 3 more years theyll say...well, they shouldve known.

THIS IS PATHETIC !

Posted by: DG on July 23, 2006 at 7:14 AM | PERMALINK

Israel bombs civilans. We rush more bombs to Israel.
If we want a nucenced definition that civilans who continue to live in their HOMES are lesser civilans or terorists because of their failure to evacuate due to the demans of a forgien nation (how ligitimate is that order?) then....

Since Israel indicriminatly bombs civilians and civilian infrastructure as colective punishment to send a message.... And the USA rushes shipments of bombs to Israel, knowing full well what they will be used for, then the USA, or members of its armed forces and goverment, are just as guilty of war crimes.

If you can apply nuance to a civilian mother and brand her a terrorist because she did not abandon her home and run away fast enough, then you can certanly brand BUSH with war crims for rushing shipments of the bombs to Israel that will utimatly be used to kill her.

Posted by: JM on July 23, 2006 at 7:40 AM | PERMALINK

From 1933 to 1939 the Nazis certainly gave clear warning to Jews to get out of Europe ...... so Dershowitz's logic suggests that those who remained (for a short while) chose to be victims? Ditto for those American native people who did not clear off the continent fast enough? And for Armenians in Turkey in 1915? How about Jews and others who remain in Israel despite the clear warnings of Hezbollah that it intends to destroy Israel?

Posted by: RH on July 23, 2006 at 8:13 AM | PERMALINK

This idea echos Bush's treatment of Katrina victims.

"Excepting the lame and the sick, then, anyone who declines to leave their home in New Orleans despite Washingtons orders to do so is, ipso facto, complicit with foul weather and presumably
pro hurricane."

Posted by: mparker on July 23, 2006 at 8:20 AM | PERMALINK

The irony of Dershowitz's argument, of course, is that the refusal to rigorously distinguish between civilians and combatants is exactly what defines... terrorists. Terrorists and their apologists have always claimed that the civilians they kill are in fact not really innocent at all, but rather collaborators and/or (perhaps unwitting) human shields used by the political cum military targets of the terrorists.

Dershowitz is Exhibit A of the madness that 9-11 induced in certain formerly sane people, inducing some previously balanced thinkers to embody the old Pogo observation that "We have seen the enemy, and it us us."

Posted by: Nils Gilman on July 23, 2006 at 8:38 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is irrelevant. He is like the Unabomber in his extremist thinking. He just doesn't have the balls to act on his beliefs.

Posted by: Bob M on July 23, 2006 at 8:47 AM | PERMALINK

A couple of points: a) In fact with Israels policy of compulsory military service, every Israeli adult is not really a civilian; that is not the case in Lebanon and b)none of these European Jews belong to the middle east; they are as middle eastern looking as Dershowitz and Lieberman; they should all get the hell out of there. Soon after the holocaust, we are told that the Russian Jew, the Polish Jew, the German Jew, the Irish Jew and I mustn't forget the Palm Beach, all swore that their grannies were born in the holy land. Basically they are all land robbing murderers. Unlike the peasants of south lebanon, these guys have homes in Palm Spring where they should return.

Posted by: Salam on July 23, 2006 at 9:22 AM | PERMALINK

Stefan
But according to the Bush regime, this is a time of war already -- America, they say, is at war right now. And yet the families and civilians living on or near our bases have not been evacuated.

Ones oversea have been. Accompanied tours have been turned into unaccompanied ones. And within the US, they are actually moving civilian families *onto* bases where they can. Why? Because the civilian families are considered targets. Where they can't move them on, they've stepped up patrols in military housing.

Are we to conclude from this that our military is using them as human shields? Are they therefore legitimate military targets?

Weak, Stefan. Very weak.

The proper analogy would be if we placed our ICBM silos near population centers to deter counterattack. Or took our bases and distributed their assets throughout town. If we stored our ammo in our civilian hospitals and schools. That is what they do.

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 23, 2006 at 9:28 AM | PERMALINK

Windhorse
Yet Hezbollah kidnaps Israelis soldiers so they can barter to get some of their soldiers back --

Hezbollah does not have soldiers. They're a terrorist group running a state within a state.

the helplessness of the Lebanese government is no excuse and they are held to account to the tune of the utter destruction of their economy and infrastructure for years to come and hundreds of civilian lives.

Hezbollah is a part of their government, holding seats in the parliament and ministries. More importantly, they are essentially using the rest of Lebanon as human shields, placing their headquarters in Beirut itself, and dispersing their stuff throughout towns and villages. They are far more a threat to a democratic Lebanon then they are to Israel.

What to do?

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 23, 2006 at 9:33 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz at it again. A discredited apologist.

Posted by: JW on July 23, 2006 at 9:42 AM | PERMALINK

Just because you call someone a terrorist or your media tells you he's a terrorist; doesn't make him one.
Israeli has abducted thousands of people in Palestine from their homes and they languish in their prisons for years. When two soldiers are abducted, all hell breaks lose.
" Grab land; bulldoze homes; kill; humiliate and destroy during the day and in the evening collect funds for the holocaust museum" This has been their story for over half a century and for this phase of world history, one has to thank the Americans, who are so brainwashed by the madrassah networks that they repeat the same lies.
How shameful and despicable, when 99% of a country's elected representatives line their pockets with yiddish money and then give the green light to go slaughter people and bring death and destruction around the world. There's a competition on among the democrats and republicans on who can show more fealty to Israel!!
Would it be okay for a native Indian to occupy your homes, claiming his diaspora rights, and then call you a terrorist if you resisted?

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 9:50 AM | PERMALINK

Bet Dershowitz and his bloodthirsty ilk would like to change the definition of humanity as well. He'd probably change it to exclude all Arabs so it would not be a humanitarian crime to slaughter them.

Posted by: Chrissy on July 23, 2006 at 10:08 AM | PERMALINK

Looks like "collective punishment" is now heading the Jews' way. Will all Jews now be condemned for the deplorable words and actions of a few?

And Salam just a reminder Morocco, Libya, Egypt, ALgeria, Tunisia, Lebanon, Syria none of those lands were Arabic until the Arabs invaded and conquered them, relatively late in their history. By your logic, the Arabs of those countries should all go back to Palm Beach, Saudi Arabia.

No, Israelis are Israelis, and many have left, and the ones who remain have to face the choice of whether to destroy themselves as a nation or not.

Posted by: Colonel Cunningham on July 23, 2006 at 10:31 AM | PERMALINK

And within the US, they are actually moving civilian families *onto* bases where they can. Why? Because the civilian families are considered targets. Where they can't move them on, they've stepped up patrols in military housing.

So the US military is mixing civilians within its forces on military bases. Can't complain, then, when those civilians are killed if our enemies attack a base -- they have willingly put themselves on top of a legitimate military target.

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 10:32 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz's article ends, "Every civilian death is a tragedy, but some are more tragic than others."

Well, Dershowitz, my ole facsist buddy, inciter of hate, you are correct this time.

Because when your creator calls you home-most Americans won't shed a tear...

Posted by: CaptainAmerica on July 23, 2006 at 10:33 AM | PERMALINK

Hezbollah does not have soldiers. They're a terrorist group running a state within a state.

Actually, they are a legitimate militia that holds seats in parliament, and that was created by the state of Lebanon to oust an invasion by Israel. They runs hospitals, schools, charities, and basic services for the poor in addition to protecting Lebanon's southern border.

As we speak they are organizing the evacuation of those civilians in southern Lebanon who want to leave and giving funds to those who have no means to support themselves outside their own homes.

Are they an international terrorist organization like Al Qaeda that plans attacks all over the world? No. Their actions are directed against Israel only. Further, they no longer use suicide bombers and the violence they engage in is typical border skirmishes one finds between hostile neighbors.

Do they sometimes go to far? Yes, and so does Israel. Would it be better for the long term peace process if they were disarmed? Probably. But if you were the one who'd finally driven a foreign invader off your soil after years of occupation, you might be a tad unwilling to give up your arms as well.

In one paragraph you describe them as "terrorists" who have no legitimacy and then in the next you describe them as having the accountability of state actors. You can't have it both ways.

Further, your analysis does not address my point about how the Iraqi government is held harmless for the actions of its internal terrorist groups -- some of whom like Hezbollah hold seats in parliament -- and how Lebanon's government is held accountable for the same situation.

Posted by: Windhorse on July 23, 2006 at 10:36 AM | PERMALINK

Hezbollah does not have soldiers. They're a terrorist group running a state within a state.
Hezbollah is a part of their government, holding seats in the parliament and ministries.

This is a contradictory argument. One cannot simultaneously say that (a) Hezbollah cannot have soldiers because it is not a legitimate government and (b)Hezbollah is an elected part of the legitimate Lebanese government.

Israel is using the same logic, justifying its strikes against Lebanon as a whole on the basis that since Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government, the Lebanese govt. is to blame, but at the same time saying that Hezbollah is an extra-governmental organization whose use of force is illegitimate. Either they're state actors or they're not, but they can't be both at the same time.

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 10:43 AM | PERMALINK

"It was a matter of survival. What I had to do, [...] was to limit my own actions to what I - in my conscience - could answer for. At police training school they taught us - I remember, it was Rittmeister Leitner who always said it - that the definition of a crime must meet four requirements: there has to be a subject, an object, an action and intent. If any of these four elements are missing, then we are not dealing with a punishable offence."

"I can't see how you could possibly apply this concept to this situation?

"That's what I am trying to explain to you; the only way I could live was by compartmentalizing my thinking. By doing this I could apply it to my own situation; if the 'subject' was the government, the 'object' the Jews, and the 'action' the gassings, then I could tell myself that for me the fourth element, 'intent' [he called it 'free will'] was missing."
[...]

"What if you had been specifically assigned to carry out the actual gassings?"

"I wasn't," he said drily, and added in a reasonable and explanatory tone: "That was done by two Russians - Ivan and Nicolau, under the command of a sub [Gustav Muenzberger]."

- from Gitta Sereny's interview of Franz Stangl, Commandant of Treblinka - the largest of the five Nazi extermination camps. Into That Darkness by Gitta Sereny.

Read on Mr. Dershowitz and then, if you can, go see yourself in the mirror!

Posted by: Freedom on July 23, 2006 at 10:44 AM | PERMALINK

H: Civilians have been and will continue to be killed in Lebanon and elsewhere; it's to be deplored, but hardly an historical novelty. Dershowitz's innovation isn't the killing itself, but his shameless public justification of it, which openly repudiates a nontrivial part of our civilization's legal & moral heritage. It's not the barbarism that's new, it's the public revelling in it, the attempt, against all tradition & precedent, to elide the fact that what we're watching is a crime.

Worth reposting.

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 10:46 AM | PERMALINK

According to Col. Cunnigham the Egyptians and others were not Arabs before the Arabs conquered them. What were they before? Europeans?
They may not all be the same gene pool, but the vast majority are semitic and linked by a common language and culture. All the Arabs look quite similiar to me.
Sure, the middle eastern Jews have every right to live in Israel, but how does that give Dershowitz and Lieberman land rights there? Let's face it these European converts to Judaism cannot claim a birth right to land in the middle east. These guys are as middle eastern looking as Bill and Hillary Clinton! Go back to Palm Beach, you Zio-predators!

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 10:47 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a lawyer and his client, Israel, is a mass murderer. He's got to muddy the waters so that all those Lebanese and Palestinian children being burned alive and dismembered are really culpable for their own deaths. What he really means to say is that only Israeli lives are worth caring about.

Also, I love the analogy of right-winger Al that Bush's relationship to the people of New Orleans is just like Israel's relationship to the people of Lebanon. I think that would explain a lot.

Posted by: Randy on July 23, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Windhorse & Stefan (roughly)
In one paragraph you describe them as "terrorists" who have no legitimacy and then in the next you describe them as having the accountability of state actors. You can't have it both ways...Either they're state actors or they're not, but they can't be both at the same time.

But they are. Or at least they play it both ways. They participate in the government of Lebanon, but then act as their own entity in lobbing missiles over into Israel. It's an inconsistency that serves them well, but as in logic once you can prove both A and not_A, anything can be proven/justified. That sword cuts both ways.

Further, your analysis does not address my point about how the Iraqi government is held harmless for the actions of its internal terrorist groups -- some of whom like Hezbollah hold seats in parliament -- and how Lebanon's government is held accountable for the same situation.

If Iraqi insurgents were attacking an outside state, the analogy would hold. But in general, both states need to (continue to) move to ensure the central government has the monopoly on use of force. There is no safe middle ground.

Posted by: Red State Mike on July 23, 2006 at 10:54 AM | PERMALINK

Actually, they are a legitimate militia that holds seats in parliament, and that was created by the state of Lebanon to oust an invasion by Israel.

To be accurate, Hezbollah was not created by the state of Lebanon -- they grew out of several Shiite resistance groups in southern Lebanon who formed to resist the Israeli invasion in 1982.

Brunch time....

Posted by: Stefan on July 23, 2006 at 10:58 AM | PERMALINK

Digby sums up Dershowitz here

No comment required really...

Posted by: A Hermit on July 23, 2006 at 11:03 AM | PERMALINK

Salam all Arabs look the same to you? Assad of Syria looked a lot whiter to me than, say, the actor Jeff Goldblum. And certainly a lot whiter than "Bandar Bush" of Saudi Arabia. Ditto Ralph Nader and Helen Thomas, both Lebanese Arabs, and Abbas of Palestine. Also, the indigenous mountain people of North Africa, the Berbers, are often red-haired and blue-eyed, much whiter than the Arab invaders who subjugated them. It's all kinda mixed up. Your logic just doesn't work.

Posted by: colonel Cunningham on July 23, 2006 at 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Yeh sure Col. your logic works: Egyptians are not Arabs; but Dershowitz is middle eastern looking. When did you last get your vision tested? If its all mixed up, that still doesn't justify the Russian Jew and the Palm Beach Jew claiming land rights in the middle east!
Now I know you'd like to claim that Jesus was Scandinavian looking and not Palestinian looking, because the madrassas of Hollywood have stored that onto your saved memory bank.

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 11:21 AM | PERMALINK

Salam, I never said Dershowitz was "middle eastern looking," though I agree thatt he isn't, at least by your narrow definition. But if skin tone is your only standard, I can show you plenty of Russian Jews who are darker than John Sununu and Danny Thomas. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the Jew Jesus Christ was more "middle-eastern looking" than Saddam Hussein. So what's your point? That Jews from Europe shouldn't move to Israel?

Posted by: Colonel Cunningham on July 23, 2006 at 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a repugnant little man. First he attempts to justify torture, now he's cheerleading the killing of civilians. What's next? Sedition trials for journalists not thought to be suitably supportive of the "War on Terror"?

Posted by: Jake on July 23, 2006 at 11:35 AM | PERMALINK

Looking beyond Dershowitz's record of infantile and irrational re-definitons of morality and justice, the real story here is that The LA Times could ever imagine that his opinions are either valid or constructive. This story says as much about the LA Times and the Mainstream Media's agenda as it does about Dershowitz or the Pariah State.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer on July 23, 2006 at 11:38 AM | PERMALINK

Actually, Jake, "first" he attempted to justify first degree murder by Claus von Blow and O.J. -- curiously, that was O.K. with you guys. "War" on the other hand, unfortunately, has collateral damage which is why we need to win this one as soon as possible.

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 11:40 AM | PERMALINK

Hoarsewhisperer, please advise what exactly is neither "valid" nor "constructive" in your opinion:

Civilian is an "increasingly meaningless word" especially when terrorists use (willing) civilians as part of their tactics, which should be replaced by a new phrase, "the continuum of civilianality." "Nor can women and children always be counted as civilians," wrote Dershowitz with reference to Lebanese casualties, before concluding that though "every civilian death is a tragedy, but some are more tragic than others."

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 11:45 AM | PERMALINK

Now you are making some sense Col. By and large people fit their profiles: the Chinese look Chinese( even there, the pigmentation varies a lot); the Africans look Africans; the Europeans look Europeans; and the middle eastern people look middle eastern. The south Asians look about the same; although you'll find kids in northern Pakistan, in the Karakoram range with blue eyes and fair hair; so there's a mix every where in the world.
This is exactly why when they identify someone as "suspicious" and "middle eastern" looking at U.S. airports, they don't mean someone like Dershowitz. Yet you feel Dershowitz has a birth right to land in the middle east. Why because lawyer Dershowitz has the evidence! A cruel joke indeed. And who is paying for the joke?
The people of the world.
I believe Jews and Christians and Muslims were living peacefully pre-1948. No evil suicide bombers and no good F-16 bombers in those halcyon days.

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

This is how most jews view the death of goyim.

Of course Jews only speak this way between themselves, but I have enough jewish friends and extdended family [not immediate] that I know quite well how they feel... yes, as a group.

Group think is a popular notion for all kinds of groups outside Jewry these days... collective punishment is used by Israelis on a routine basis.... so to speak of "Jewish groupthink" is well within established bounds... just like 'those Arabs' and 'those Muslims'

The problem, as always, is Jews resent and resist being lumped together [the way they lump Arabs and Muslims ] and insist that to speak of such a mindset is 'anti semitic'

How convenient for the most racist people on earth.

Until Americans wake up and see the handiwork of Jews in manipulating our government, media and military - we will continue to be drawn into their war on Islam.... we pay, we die, and they preen.

Posted by: Charles on July 23, 2006 at 11:51 AM | PERMALINK

"Thomas" Dershowitz, I presume?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer on July 23, 2006 at 11:51 AM | PERMALINK

No, I'm not Glenn Greenwood either.

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

Charles, you'll have to explain to me how calling Jews "the most racist people on earth" is not, by definition, "anti semitic" (unless you are saying that's a "good" thing)?

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 11:57 AM | PERMALINK

A lot of you people are Jew haters.

There I said it.

Posted by: Al on July 23, 2006 at 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

Yes, Alan. All those children massacred in the past 10 days are not really civilians. They are just inflatable dolls planted by the Hezbollah to make Israel look bad.

Why don't you admit, Alan, that you do not give a damn about Arab lives? Why don't you admit that you believe that Arabs are subhumans, therefore their lives are worth no more than the lives of slugs?

Spare us the rhetoric, Alan. You are a racist. Period.

Posted by: Devil's Advocate on July 23, 2006 at 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Hoarsewhisperer, maybe we should start with an easy one; do you agree or disagree with this:

There is a vast difference both moral and legal between a 2-year-old who is killed by an enemy rocket and a 30-year-old civilian who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets. Both are technically civilians, but the former is far more innocent than the latter.

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, Alan. What are the villagers of Southern Lebanon supposed to do when the Isreali have bombed their roads out of existence, and there is no gas to put in their cars. If they have cars, that is...

Dershowitz is a real scumbag. I am not surprised that he now supports torture. And I thought Abu Gonzales was a nasty piece of work...

Posted by: Devil's Advocate on July 23, 2006 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

Glen Freeland, maybe?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer on July 23, 2006 at 12:12 PM | PERMALINK

The only civilians that deserve protection are the preborn - 60 million civilians dead - why don't you guys care about them?!

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Thomas, I believe he is referring to Israel being an apartheid, racist state-thus the oppression of the Palestinians.

It is called a democracy, but I'm not sure what standards they use to determine this-considering theocracy is the practice of Israeli government.

I expect Israel is in for a much bigger fight than they anticipated...their rich kid soldiers talk tough and hard -while they walk the relatively peaceful streets of Israel and Palestine-with M-16's slung on their backs.

Let's see how this generation of soldiers performs when the gunfire is aimed toward them-WITHOUT air power behind them...on someone elses turf.

Half of all Israeli teens get out of mandatory military service clause-I don't blame them. Their country will not hesitate to squander their young lives, much like the neocons here...old fat rich men making more off the backs and blood of others.

Dirty Dersh should be plunked right down in the middle of Lebonon with nothing but a small revolver-and let him enjoy the mess he has helped to create.

Posted by: CaptainAmerica on July 23, 2006 at 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

Or Free Glenland (in Palestine)?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer on July 23, 2006 at 12:17 PM | PERMALINK

The collective struggle of liberalism, if there is such a thing, is for the recognition of universal human rights. Exactly what these rights are is often hard to define but some kind of consensus can be found in various declarations of human rights and in the opinions of international human rights organizations.

The struggle for Enlightenment values is against nationalism- the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labeled good or bad...(and the) habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests.

Dershowitzs brutal Zionism and Charles perhaps naive anti-semitism (neocons do not represent Jews) are both nationalisms.

Posted by: bellumregio on July 23, 2006 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

I'm not even saying that I agree with Dershowitz. My vocabulary has always been either "official kills" (i.e. uniformed combatants) or "non-official kills" (i.e. non-uniformed terrorists, civilians, etc.). It is clear that the Geneva Conventions require targets be selected as to minimize, but not eliminate, civilian casualties:

"While noncombatants and civilian property may never be directly targeted, the law recognizes that an attack on an otherwise lawful military objective may cause incidental injury and damage to civilians and their property."

The Geneva Conventions also prohibit the placement of military sites in and among civilian populations. Just as the German people were responsible for electing Hitler and bringing the Nazis to power, same for Hamas/Hezbollah and the Palestinian people. In this case the government of Lebanon is responsible for not moving to eliminate a rogue terrorist group and armed militancy operating in the south of the country outside of Lebanese law. That is the duty of the government in a Westphalian political system and the people are responsible for their government.

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 12:23 PM | PERMALINK

Im not up to reading 263 comments before writing this, which I hope has already been written.

When it comes to Israel, Alan Dershowitz often falls off the deep end. Kevin uses the word clever. Dershowitzs cleverness has made him guilty of exactly what he sees in others. The the continuum of civilianality? Indeed.

He is clever enough to make excuses for Israeli behavior forever. Dershowitz himself is guilty rationalizing behavior which flat out kills innocent people. He ends up in a world where Lebanese and Palestinian lives are not equal to Israli lives.

By his logic, he would end up calling himself a racist and a terrorist. Kevin implies this and its true.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on July 23, 2006 at 12:29 PM | PERMALINK

I doubt Dershowitz would defend Israel killing 6 million Arabs in Nazi-style concentration camps. Unfortunate, but legitimate, collateral damage is another matter altogether.

Posted by: Thomas on July 23, 2006 at 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

Thomas, my man. If some terrorist group forms up in Montana, I'm not responsible if the manage to kill a bunch of Canadians. Especially if the government of the United States were weak and ineffectual for a period of time.

Thus, would the Canadians be justified in "accidentally" killing me and my family? There is such a thing as measured response. You, like me, probably measure your responses every day. Otherwise, I would just fight all the time.

Consider that virtually the entire Arab world completely disagrees with the standard view in the United States and Israel over how this thing started. The Arabs think it started with Israel killing that Palenstian family on the beach with artillery fire, prior to the "kidnapping" of the Israeli soldier.

You can either kill all your perceived enemies, or start measuring responses carefully.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on July 23, 2006 at 12:40 PM | PERMALINK

Good gracious, the Arab world never killed 6 million, why are we talking about that? That was done by fellow Europeans.

Posted by: little ole jim from red country on July 23, 2006 at 12:41 PM | PERMALINK

"It is clear that the Geneva Conventions require targets be selected as to minimize, but not eliminate, civilian casualties"; well put Thomas. The only problem is that one side has precision guided bombs and the other side has crude rockets. You are obviously a master of skullduggery.
What's this hue and cry about Iran supplying rockets; Israel gets everything from the U.S.! So?
Your argument about the Israeli and Lebanese casualty has been used by the Israelis for fifty years now. We don't aim at civilians and we also say SORRY which the Palestinians don't. How convenient. The result? Thousands of Palestinians vs a handful of Israelis! Is there any limit to the EVIL you will defend?
The stone throwers are labeled rogues and terrorists and the land thieves, the cold blooded murderers, the F-16 bombers; the pizza munching occupiers are the good guys?
Get these European Jews to go back to Germany and Poland ( the AshkeNAZI rogue terroristJews). Israel is for the middle eastern Jews, Muslims and Christians.

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

I never said the Arab world killed 6 million (they are trying though). You were the one who said Dershowitz will "make excuses for Israeli behavior forever." I was drawing at least one line. As for being guilty rationalizing behavior which flat out kills innocent people, even the Geneva Conventions do that.

Sorry, but here is the "line" I draw:

There is a vast difference both moral and legal between a 2-year-old who is killed by an enemy rocket and a 30-year-old civilian who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets. Both are technically civilians, but the former is far more innocent than the latter.

Posted by: GOP on July 23, 2006 at 12:50 PM | PERMALINK


THOMAS: No, I'm not Glenn Greenwood either.

More importantly, you're not Thomas either. But then, neither were you really Doug M. when you used that name. Nor were you any of the various names you adopted. Whatever you call yourself, though, one thing remains consistent: You lie. People learn that quickly about you, no matter your guise. So instead of exposing yourself to those familiar with your dishonesty, you sit here now chatting with anti-semites on the frayed fringes of this thread. And that's appropriate, since you are, no matter that you may debate them, really of the same dishonest ilk.


Posted by: jayarbee on July 23, 2006 at 1:01 PM | PERMALINK

GOP: The problem is Israel and its defenders care no more about murdering the innocent 2 year old than they do about the murder of the 30 year old. They are the ones who do not recognize the difference between murdering a child and an adult civilian. Dershowitz has shown no remorse or concern about the life of any innocent Arab child, Christian or Muslim.

Posted by: Chrissy on July 23, 2006 at 1:03 PM | PERMALINK

Red State Mike: If Iraqi insurgents were attacking an outside state, the analogy would hold.

They are. They're attacking Turkey:

In a move to tackle the cross-border dimension of Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) terrorism, the Foreign Ministry has summoned the amabassadors of the U.S.and Iraq to ask them to take "concrete steps to curb PKK presence in Northrn Iraq."

So the analogy holds.

But in general, both states need to (continue to) move to ensure the central government has the monopoly on use of force. There is no safe middle ground.

Then to be logically consistent you -- and the Bush administration -- should support the invasion of Kurdish Iraq by Turkey, who has been the victim of "international terrorists."

Instead the U.S. is attempting to use diplomacy to defuse the situation in Iraq. Why not in Lebanon?

Further, in Iraq some of the militias and death squads that are in essence attacking foreign countries by attacking their troops are in reality arms of parties that hold seats in parliament and in ministerial positions.

So we should be attacking the offices and homes of SCIRI members in Iraq as well as the governing Kurdish parties that give free reign to PKK in order to be consistent both in our righteous indignation and in our policy of using force against terrorists, from which flow all these other arguments about the permissability of attacking civilians.

And we are not.

My contention is not that both aren't bad situations, as they both are. But the use of collective punishment via a massively disproportionate military response is not the solution either, as is evidenced by U.S. policy internally in Iraq.

Posted by: Windhorse on July 23, 2006 at 1:05 PM | PERMALINK

salam:

You inhabit a realm of fantasy. So, unfortunately, does the majority of the Palestinian people, which is why they threw away their UN-approved state in May of 1948, and have been unable to get it back in the subsequent 60 years.

There are over 2 million Jews of Ashkenazi descent in Israel. They are not going anywhere, and no one has the military strength to kill them - not even if you get your Islamic fascist bomb. You happen to be wrong on the moral merits of your case against their presence there, but even leaving the moral case aside, it is high time for you and Arabs like you (I presume you are Arab, judging from your moniker) to join the real world. You will make a deal with Israel, or you will have war. What is your offer?

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 1:07 PM | PERMALINK

"...30-year-old civilian who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets..."

Except for the fact that he lives next door to a family with six small children who are blown to hell by Israeli "precision munition."

Try not to use such extremes in your arguments next time...

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 23, 2006 at 1:14 PM | PERMALINK

mhr,
"The spectacle of liberals attacking Alan Dershowitz is a new one. For decades the good professor was a veritable mouthpiece of the left wing of the Democrat party. But the current crop of lefties has zipped past him. Israel left Lebanon in the hope that doing so would bring stability if not peace to its northern border."

What idiotic hogwash.

Hezbollah humiliated Israel and America and ran them out of Lebanon like the cowards and liars they are. War is a conflict in which both sides are armed. Neither Israel nor America has been involved in a war since 1945 - only brutal occupation. Lying about history is a dangerous habit - sooner or later you start believing it yourself. Then it's known as "drinking your own bathwater". Drink up.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer on July 23, 2006 at 1:23 PM | PERMALINK

Neither Israel nor America has been involved in a war since 1945 - only brutal occupation.

This has to be sock puppetry. I can't believe there are this many lying Arabs and right-wing anti-Semites out there.

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 1:30 PM | PERMALINK

And left-wing anti-Semites too, clearly. So I guess there have to be at least 2 sock puppeteers.

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 1:31 PM | PERMALINK

Even the BBC is now acknowledging that many of the "civilian" casualties are Hizbollah fighters.

It's interesting to watch the left descend into anti-Semitism. More every year. You might read this to get the big picture but I don't see a lot of people interested in the big picture.

Posted by: Mike K on July 23, 2006 at 1:32 PM | PERMALINK

Hezbollah humiliated Israel and America and ran them out of Lebanon like the cowards and liars they are.

And it only took them 18 years to get the Israelis out. Cowards!

Israel, on the other hand, drove the Palestinians out in 10 months in 1947-48, and the Jordanians and Egyptians out in the famous 6 days. Who are the cowards and liars, exactly?

Why have I been dragged down to this level?

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 1:33 PM | PERMALINK

"The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit."

The same kind of notice was given to certain etnical groups by Natonal-Socialists during late thirties in Germany. So the ones who stayed and were rounded up in camps are fair play?

Posted by: diapazon on July 23, 2006 at 1:38 PM | PERMALINK

"...Even the BBC is now acknowledging that many of the "civilian" casualties are Hizbollah fighters."

That would be all of those dead children? Maybe they were wearing Hizbollah branded Nikes or black Pampers. Sounds like terrorists to me.

Or maybe the ones in the cars with white flags which their parents are using to try and escape over the few roads that have not had their bridges bombed only to have their car destroyed by an F16.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 23, 2006 at 2:01 PM | PERMALINK

Fouad Ajami puts it in perspective,

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060723/31fouad.htm

Posted by: cld on July 23, 2006 at 2:05 PM | PERMALINK

Brooksfoe how much morality or legality is there in these European askeNAZI Jews descending on the middle east( having been spared by Hitler) to steal land and terrorize the indigenous people with U.S. made WMDs. Is there a fantasy in that? No one wants to kill them; they just need to stop theiving and return to their second homes in Palm Beach.
What is it about the Jews that despite their small numbers, throughout history, they've managed to stir up trouble; doesn't matter where they are. For half a century now they've been screaming HOLOCAUST and committing murder at the same time. Very soon the game will be up when the whole world will be on the same page and the Ziocons a footnote.

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 2:18 PM | PERMALINK

If it is OK for Israel to kill civilians, for any reason, it is OK for Lebanese and Palestinians to kill Israeli civilians. Logic works in two directions.

If it is OK to attack the country that supports another country's military aggression, then it is OK to attack the US for its military aid to Israel. Logic works in two directions.

I would prefer Dershowitz suffer from his logic before another Arab civilian suffers from it.

Posted by: Israel Bad on July 23, 2006 at 2:20 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K demonstrates the "collective guilt" phenomena that allows sociopaths like Dershowitz to suggest that the people not like him be treated to a Free Fire Zone.

Look moron, there are a couple of disruptive assholes pretending there was no holocaust, and there are a couple of idiots whose views are likewise anti-semetic. But neither the left nor this board's left-leaning members are anti-semetic.

As to our resident (he knows which one he is) murderer's sophistry, he is the only one who suggested that he would be happy to have been the one who dropped a bomb on a known terrorist and the pregnant woman who was with him, suggesting that she was asking for it by being there. How many civilians did you kill you racist thug?

Posted by: heavy on July 23, 2006 at 2:27 PM | PERMALINK

"casuistry," pure & simple

Posted by: ptb on July 23, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

I wonder where on the continuum people fall who fled their homes in southern Lebanon only to have the unarmed convoys they and their families were riding in bombed by Israeli jets.

Posted by: Linus on July 23, 2006 at 2:29 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz has now become an advocate for ethnic cleansing. All the IDF have to do is drop a few leaflets and tell the civilians to leave territory deemed desirable by the Jewish State and voila, those pesky clauses in the 4th Geneva convention and other treaties are rendered moot. We have become accomplices in a crime against humanity.

July 22, 2006
The Shame of Being an American
by Paul Craig Roberts
Gentle reader, do you know that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon? Israel has ordered all the villagers to clear out. Israel then destroys their homes and murders the fleeing villagers. That way there is no one to come back and nothing to which to return, making it easier for Israel to grab the territory, just as Israel has been stealing Palestine from the Palestinians.
Do you know that one-third of the Lebanese civilians murdered by Israel's attacks on civilian residential districts are children? That is the report from Jan Egeland, the emergency relief coordinator for the UN. He says it is impossible for help to reach the wounded and those buried in rubble, because Israeli air strikes have blown up all the bridges and roads. Considering how often (almost always) Israel misses Hezbollah targets and hits civilian ones, one might think that Israeli fire is being guided by US satellites and US military GPS. Don't be surprised at US complicity. Why would the puppet be any less evil than the puppet master?...........
On July 20, "your" House of Representatives voted 410-8 in favor of Israel's massive war crimes in Lebanon. Not content with making every American complicit in war crimes, "your" House of Representatives, according to the Associated Press, also "condemns enemies of the Jewish state."
Who are the "enemies of the Jewish state"?
They are the Palestinians whose land has been stolen by the Jewish state, whose homes and olive groves have been destroyed by the Jewish state, whose children have been shot down in the streets by the Jewish state, whose women have been abused by the Jewish state. They are Palestinians who have been walled off into ghettos, who cannot reach their farm lands or medical care or schools, who cannot drive on roads through Palestine that have been constructed for Israelis only. ....
The Palestinians who confront Israeli evil are called "terrorists." When Bush forced free elections on Palestine, the people voted for Hamas. Hamas is the organization that has stood up to Israel. This means, of course, that Hamas is evil, anti-Semitic, un-American and terrorist. The US and Israel responded by cutting off all funds to the new government. Democracy is permitted only if it produces the results Bush and Israel want.
Israelis never practice terror. Only those who are in Israel's way are terrorists...........
...........
If you are still a Proud American, consider that your pride is doing nothing good for Israel or for America.
On July 20 when "your" House of Representatives, following "your" US Senate, passed the resolution in support of Israel's war crimes, the most powerful lobby in Washington, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), quickly got out a press release proclaiming "The American people overwhelming support Israel's war on terrorism and understand that we must stand by our closest ally in this time of crisis."
The truth is that Israel created the crisis by invading a country with a pro-American government. The truth is that the American people do not support Israel's war crimes, as the CNN quick poll results make clear and as was made clear by callers into C-Span.
Despite the Israeli spin on news provided by US "reporting," a majority of Americans do not approve of Israeli atrocities against Lebanese civilians. Hezbollah is located in southern Lebanon. If Israel is targeting Hezbollah, why are Israeli bombs falling on northern Lebanon? Why are they falling on Beirut? Why are they falling on civilian airports? On schools and hospitals?
Now we arrive at the main point. When the US Senate and House of Representatives pass resolutions in support of Israeli war crimes and condemn those who resist Israeli aggression, the Senate and House confirm Osama bin Laden's propaganda that America stands with Israel against the Arab and Muslim world...................
The complicity of the American public in these heinous crimes will damn America for all time in history.




Find this article at:
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9381

Posted by: hold them accountable on July 23, 2006 at 2:32 PM | PERMALINK

Only a fortnight back these evil fascist 'ask a nazi' Jew monsters wiped out a family picnicing on a Gaza beach. The only survivor a daughter.
While the whole world was livid; no outrage in the U.S. and not one word of sympathy from Bush; instead they were uncorking champagne bottles.
Where are all the decent people in America?

The only good news coming out of the middle east today is that askenazi Sharon will soon be entering the gates of hell. He will be accommodated in the devil's suite; his immediate superior will be Hitler.

Posted by: salam on July 23, 2006 at 3:24 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz is a real puke all right. By the same logic all Jews who live in Israel would certainly be complicit in its illegal occupation of Palestinian lands. Unfortunately, for every atrocity there is a clever lawyer who can justify it.

Posted by: CapitalistImperialistPig on July 23, 2006 at 3:46 PM | PERMALINK

cld
Fouad Ajami puts it in perspective,

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060723/31fouad.htm

That is an excellent article. Snippet...

The cruelty of history--and Lebanon displays that cruel juxtaposition of nature's beauty and history's heartbreak--is that men and nations are doomed to suffer great bloodshed before they settle down to outcomes inevitable all along. When the dust settles, the Lebanese government will have to take up its duty on its frontier with Israel. No one contests Hezbollah's role in Lebanon's politics; no one would deny its place in the country's sectarian landscape. But the guns and the missiles are another matter. Demography works to the advantage of the Shiites, and a great deal of the country's wealth has shifted their way in recent years. The Shiites do not need a holy war on their own soil. The reining in of Hezbollah is something they owe their kith and kin. They needn't be enamored of Israel, and they won't be. Those Persians bearing gifts, those Syrians who keep their own frontier with Israel as quiet as a tomb while setting ablaze Lebanon's lands, are no friends of the Lebanese.
Posted by: Red State Mike on July 23, 2006 at 4:06 PM | PERMALINK

If it is OK for Israel to kill civilians, for any reason, it is OK for Lebanese and Palestinians to kill Israeli civilians.

ISRAEL BAD, you do seem to think it's OK for Lebanese and Palestinians to kill Israeli civilians.

This war began when Israel's enemies began firing missiles into civilian areas, without even the pretext that there was a territorial dispute. There was no military aspect at all of these missiles.

Yet, Israel's critics here have little to say against these unprovoked attacks on Israeli civilians. That lack of criticism is what makes you folks appear anti-Semitic.

Posted by: ex-liberal on July 23, 2006 at 4:17 PM | PERMALINK

I came across a more straightforward expression of Dershowitz's idea in the comments on Gideon Levy's article, "Stop Now, Immediately," in Sunday's Haaretz.

Commenter Abe from New York, in a comment (#23) titled 'left & yellow self hating jews,' puts it this way:

"There are no innocent Lebanese."

He counsels indiscriminate slaughter. As others have noted, history is full of examples where some other group takes the place of the Lebanese in this formulation.

Posted by: H on July 23, 2006 at 4:22 PM | PERMALINK

Does anyone listen to these insane Zionazis anymore? We need a gallows set up in Washington DC to watch these sick Jew freaks swing from a rope.

Posted by: Wat Tyler on July 23, 2006 at 4:25 PM | PERMALINK

ex-liberal, You seem to forget that the Israeli's started this when they shelled and killed the Palestinean family on the beach.

When you get all of the facts straght, then perhaps you can make a logical decision of where you stand of the ages old conflict.

Posted by: Dormammu on July 23, 2006 at 4:28 PM | PERMALINK

Ex-liberal:

The character deformities of the kinds of anti-Israelis who gather wherever the subject is discussed have little bearing on the prudence or morality of Israeli policy.

It's possible to be rattled & disgusted by the sort of crude antisemitism on display here and still to regret the trend of Israeli conduct in Lebanon.

There's an obligation to call antisemitism by its name, but it's an ad hominem fallacy to think that's a substitute for substantive defense of Israel's conduct.

Posted by: K on July 23, 2006 at 4:43 PM | PERMALINK

"Mike K demonstrates the "collective guilt" phenomena that allows sociopaths like Dershowitz to suggest that the people not like him be treated to a Free Fire Zone.

Look moron, there are a couple of disruptive assholes pretending there was no holocaust, and there are a couple of idiots whose views are likewise anti-semetic. But neither the left nor this board's left-leaning members are anti-semetic."

I read all the comments and disagree. I know there are individuals who oppose Israel for their own reasons but it is all drifting into "If only those damned Jews would go away."

Salam, for example, posts the lie about the Palestinian family on the beach and I see no one refutes him. The survivors arrived at Israeli hospitals with multiple skin incisions used by Palestinian "doctors" to remove telltale shrapnel fragments from the Hamas mine that someone in that family stepped on.

I could go on but there is no use. I have better things to do. You folks do provide a window into the "moderate" left. No wonder Lieberman is in such trouble. Damn Jew !

Posted by: Mike K on July 23, 2006 at 5:01 PM | PERMALINK

Allen is right- All the people being killed are not civilians... Once they are killed they are considered victims. Every good layer knows how to choose his language

Posted by: adam on July 23, 2006 at 5:18 PM | PERMALINK

"The survivors arrived at Israeli hospitals with multiple skin incisions used by Palestinian "doctors" to remove telltale shrapnel fragments from the Hamas mine that someone in that family stepped on."

So refute him with a reference or cite to a BELIEVABLE source... Or, are you just repeating someone elses lie?


Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 23, 2006 at 5:24 PM | PERMALINK

Quite lost in all the thrashing around here is the elephant in the middle of the room-the undisputed fact that there IS no way to fight a war against a guerilla enemy that does NOT involve endangering civilians. That is precisely why guerrillas fight that way-in order to protect themselves from enemies with superior conventional forces, they hide amongst civilians.
Not a single person who opposes Israeli tactics has been able to answer the question of just how they would go about fighting Hezbollah in a way that does not harm innocent civilians.
They should simply admit there is IS no such magic solution, and get off their moral high horse.

So far Israel has bombed airfields, ports, and bridges-legitimate military targets.
They have bombed bunkers, rocket launchers, and weapons caches in south Lebanon and in Beruit-many of them placed in residential areas by Hezbollah for obvious reasons.
Now they almost certainly have made mistakes- bombing ing on the basis of bad intelligence or simply bombing the wrong target.

But that is a far cry from targeting the civilian population the way the USA did when it fire bombed Japanese cities in WW2. So far Israel has not stooped that low.

Indeed, those who now attack Israel should ask themselves if it is doing anything worse than what the USA did in the last "good" war.
Bottom line:
" War is cruelty, you cannot refine it"
William Tecumseh Sherman, savior of the Union-and burner of the city of Atlanta

Posted by: carib on July 23, 2006 at 5:53 PM | PERMALINK

kiddies, kiddies, kiddies...

good to see so much healthy discussion of current affairs vis-a-vis Lebanon... seems plain enough to me that a distinction should be drawn between Jews and Zionists, and between the Jewish Race in general and that nasty little Nazi state that calls itself Israel - in both cases, one thing has little to do with the other... folks, history is starting to rhyme right about now - hands up all those who recall that Nazi Germany justified its invasion of Poland as an act of "self defence" in response to staged "ethnic provocations" in Poland, hmmm?

Put aside your biases and look at the larger picture here, kiddies - there's an agenda playing out here, and the stakes are very high indeed...

The Holocaust is a moot issue - not relevant any more, it's been milked by the Zionist cause for everything that they can squeeze out of it for the past 60 years - though for discerning minds, there ARE glaring questions that remain unasked and unanswered under threat of incarceration or worse... but the issue hardly carries any merit at all when the victim now so enthusiastically assumes the role of persecutor and exterminator...

Pity that Zionist interests have the entire Western media, the Western banking system and the Western governments in such a headlock - otherwise there might be quite a lot less mayhem loose on the world just now and into the future...

Of course, one might loudly exclaim "anti-Semite!" at such dastardly allegations, but a spade is still a spade, and it seems to me that people are people, no matter what their lineage or language...

As for the dildo that incited this thread - Shakespeare himself suggested that we'd be better off if we just shot all the lawyers (some things apparently haven't changed)...

Posted by: ultrafart on July 23, 2006 at 5:56 PM | PERMALINK

Dr. Douchowitz is indeed quite an obnoxious fellow--and 100% guilty of felony incitement to violence.

Posted by: joe on July 23, 2006 at 6:10 PM | PERMALINK

Billmon caught the moral equivalence of Dershowitz's statements in this brilliant satire based entirely on the words of his own article: htt://www.billmon.org

"If Alan Dershowitz had been a German lawyer, circa 1943:


The news is filled these days with reports of civilian casualties, comparative civilian body counts and criticism of Germany, along with its enemies, for causing the deaths, injuries and "collective punishment" of human beings. But just who is "human" in the age of terrorism, when Polish and Russian partisans don't wear uniforms, don't belong to regular armies and easily blend into civilian populations?

We need a new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare. A new phrase should be introduced into the reporting and analysis of current events in Eastern Europe: "the continuum of humanalism." Though cumbersome, this concept aptly captures the reality and nuance of warfare today and provides a more fair way to describe those who are killed, wounded and punished.

There is a vast difference both moral and legal between an Aryan 2-year-old who is killed by an enemy rocket and a 30-year-old Slav who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets. Both are biologically human, although the former is obviously superior to the latter. There is also a difference between a member of an inferior race who merely favors or even votes for the Bolsheviks, and one who provides financial or other material support for the international conspiracy of Jews and Freemasons."

Posted by: Cugel on July 23, 2006 at 6:12 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K wrote: "I know there are individuals who oppose Israel for their own reasons but it is all drifting into 'If only those damned Jews would go away.'"

You need help. I suggest you seek it.

Posted by: PaulB on July 23, 2006 at 7:02 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz' writing is pure garbage. There's nothing "clever" about it..

Posted by: Andy on July 23, 2006 at 7:09 PM | PERMALINK

Israel is behaving like the Nazi's. How can my country allow this to happen? We believe in Freedom and Justice, and we allow Israel to do this? (among other things in their short history). But, why should I be surprised, when a few years ago an American college student wearing a bright orange vest was run over by an Israeli bulldozer for standing in front of a Palestinian's home that was going to be razed. Israeli army says they could not see her, and our government did nothing. If another military killed a US citizen, there would be hell to pay, but it's cool for Israel to shit on us. And, there is the Israeli air force attack on a US spy ship back in the late 60s that killed US sailors; we forgave that, too. Then, the first suicide bombings in Israel were done by Jews that killed Americans and Brits in fancy hotels to get us out of there. Why does Israel have such a hold on us, and why do my fellow Americans believe that Israel is so important? Then to top all this off, some Israeli in some big traveling group cut in line in front of me at the Sizzler, and gave me a look like "what are you going to do about it?" So, I just told him that my name is not Lebanon.

Posted by: choko on July 23, 2006 at 8:08 PM | PERMALINK

By the way, I am not an anti-semite Jew hater, I just hate the fact that Jews bring up the holocaust all the time, and yet they treat others the same way (save for the ovens, so far). You can't call your people victims, when you have the bigger guns, you push another group of people into poor part of the country, and start attcking other lands, expecting to be safe and untouched. Israel will be the death of America, if we do not smarten up, and at least treat Israel like we treat every other country, like shit.

Posted by: choko on July 23, 2006 at 8:11 PM | PERMALINK

Hezbollah "arrests" two Israeli soldiers INSIDE LEBANON, speculation suggests that the two Israeli soldiers may have been spies infiltrating the Hezbollah regime.
The response to the arrest of the two soldiers is to bomb and terrorize the populations of both Palestine and Lebanon.
Israel is GUILTY OF WAR CRIMES AGAIN!!!
The Amerikkkans who fund and back this inhumane agression directed towards sovergn nations are guilty as accomplises.
When the evil you made is returned back to you, may you all rot in your own Godless graves, and suffer the pain you have inflicted on others.
God's chosen ones??? Zionists are the children of Lucifer, and the followers of the antichrist religion.
Your time is gonna come.

Posted by: antisatan on July 23, 2006 at 8:14 PM | PERMALINK

Regardless of the level of disgust at Israel's actions, I am happy to see that there are a lot more people out there (hopefully in the US) that don't swallow the media's message that Israel is always a victim. I was afraid I would have to keep my mouth shut for fear of being called nasty names.

Posted by: choko on July 23, 2006 at 8:22 PM | PERMALINK

You shtupid shmuks, don't you understand the "master race" chutzpah!!!!

Posted by: Boris on July 23, 2006 at 8:31 PM | PERMALINK

""The survivors arrived at Israeli hospitals with multiple skin incisions used by Palestinian "doctors" to remove telltale shrapnel fragments from the Hamas mine that someone in that family stepped on."

So refute him with a reference or cite to a BELIEVABLE source... Or, are you just repeating someone elses lie?

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ"

I'm sorry that I can't cite a Hamas site for you. I'm sure that this German report is not enough.

This, of course, is unconvincing to you:

"Ichilov Hospital: Shrapnel removed from body of Palestinian
According to a statement released Tuesday by Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv one of the Palestinians injured in an explosion on the Beit Lahia beach in Gaza almost two weeks ago arrived for treatment at the hospital after shrapnel had already been removed from her body.
There had been no medical reason to remove the shrapnel from the body of Iham Rahlia 21 the hospital said. She had been treated first at the Shifa hospital in Gaza before being transferred in serious condition to Ichilov where doctors were surprised to find no shrapnel in her body despite the indicative wounds.
Ichilov said in a statement that this did not correlate with the hundreds of cases of wounded people who arrive at the hospital with shrapnel still in their bodies."

As I wrote, you will accept only a Hamas report with photos.

Thus the American left today.

Posted by: Mike K on July 23, 2006 at 8:42 PM | PERMALINK

"Yet, Israel's critics here have little to say against these unprovoked attacks on Israeli civilians. That lack of criticism is what makes you folks appear anti-Semitic."
When one has a monopoly on the media (owned and controlled by zionist jews and christians) it becomes next to impossible to have the criticism heard, when it is silenced by the MSM owners...
More and more, I meet people who are truly disgusted by both Israel's and Amerikkka's actions. There is no justification for the evil done by and for the leaders of these two nations. They are guilty of war crimes, and must be dealt with accordingly.
Anti-semetic? The Palastinians are the Semites! Israel is anti-semetic towards them.
"That group of Hebrews that had been diverted through Sinai into the Nile delta settled at last with other Semitic inhabitants in Palestine."
(Encyclopedia definition)
GET IT? The real semites ARE THE PALESTINIANS.

Posted by: antisatan on July 23, 2006 at 8:50 PM | PERMALINK

Everything coming out the of newspapers, television, or radio, if it is corporatized is pure propaganda. Up is down, north is south, don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

Dershowitz's is a professional liar along with all the rest of the Neo-Con's.

Oh, by the way, 911 was inside job.

Posted by: Swan Johnny on July 23, 2006 at 9:17 PM | PERMALINK

That's the stupidest thing I've ever read (well this week anyway.)

It is NEVER justifiable to directly target civilians who are not involved in the war-fighting process. It is again the law of war and the principles of just war to bomb people who have no choice but to stay where they are, and then imply that that makes them the moral equivalent of the terrorists that you're killing.

Besides, how in the hell are the Lebanese supposed to get out of there when the Israelis are bombing convoys trying to make their way north??

Sorry Dershowitz, but we can't water down the definition of "innocent civilian" to make it easier for people to sleep at night.

Posted by: Alexander Wolfe on July 23, 2006 at 9:26 PM | PERMALINK

Brooksfoe how much morality or legality is there in these European askeNAZI Jews descending on the middle east( having been spared by Hitler) to steal land and terrorize the indigenous people with U.S. made WMDs. Is there a fantasy in that?

Yes. It's all fantasy. Only a minority of Israeli Ashkenazi Jews are descended from pre- or post-WWII refugees. Most who were there in 1947 were descended from Russian Jewish immigrants who arrived between the 1890s and 1920s. Those who arrived in this or any other period up to 1947 did not "steal land"; they bought it, or reclaimed desert and swamp land which belonged to no one. So perhaps you should go hunting among your fellow Arabs for the traitors who sold the Jews their land.

There was no Jewish violence towards Palestinians in the period up until the 1930s. Then, in 1933, the Palestinians launched their first uprising, which mainly involved massacring Jews (in Hebron and so forth). The Palestinians didn't direct as much of their violence towards the British occupiers, because they figured they were too weak to attack a real army; so they turned their violence on Jewish civilians. (Sound familiar?)

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 23, 2006 at 10:02 PM | PERMALINK

Stop lying Brooksfoe........... especially stop lying on this thread where one of your own has demonstrated what utter scum he is. Are you not ashamed?...... no,of course you are not, silly me.

As someone said hours ago, Dershowitz's comments, and he is but paraphrasing a succession of Israeli leaders, rolled off the tongue more sonorously in the original German.

Posted by: maunga on July 23, 2006 at 11:00 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz has a distinct aversion to truthfulness and basic norms of human decency. He is one of the more obnoxious apologists for Zionist criminality. When Israel changes its laws and allows extradition of Jews for trial abroad and begins to treat non-Jews with as much respect as Jews, I might begin to reconsider my deep hostility to that benighted nation. For the time being, though, if Israel were to spontaneously combust tonight, I think I would be one of billions who would give a big sigh of relief.

Posted by: Frank C. Short on July 23, 2006 at 11:17 PM | PERMALINK

Mike K..."I'm sorry that I can't cite a Hamas site for you. I'm sure that this German report is not enough.

I'm sorry that is the best you could come up with. The report is German in name only. It takes all of five minutes to find out where the funding for this "German" report comes from. There is about as much objectivity in this report as there is in Fox News.

And no, a Hamas site wouldn't convince me either. But, a CNN or BBC report would.

Well, that's it for me tonight. I have job to be at in the morning, and I am sure you have to get some rest so you can be ready to catch the school bus.

Posted by: Whack a NeoCon for Christ on July 23, 2006 at 11:32 PM | PERMALINK

SBMike said: "You're absolutely right. (The HolyCo$t is) Nothing but a big lie."

Yes exactly. The HolyCo$t is nothing but a big lie.

So, SBMike, how many people died at Auschwitz?

The 4,000,000 recorded on the Auschwitz plaque shown in this photo:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 4 million "victims".

This plaque was on display at Auschwitz from 1948 until about 1990 when the Soviets released certain documents found at Auschwitz.

OR, the 1,500,000 recorded on the Auschwitz plaques shown in these photos:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims".
Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims" (Deutsch).

These plaques are currently on display at Auschwitz (English and German).

OR, something closer to the 68,864 death certificates issued by German doctors at Auschwitz. These deaths certificates were issued between August 1941 and January 1944 and were found at Auschwitz by Soviet troops. They were then hidden by the Soviets till 1989 when Gorbechev presented them to the Red Cross.

Strangely, just after the Soviets released the deaths certificates the claimed number of dead at Auschwitz was reduced (by the Jews) from 4 million to 1.5 million.

So, SBMike, 4,000,000 or 1,500,000 or about the one hundred thousand, according to the documented evidence.

Posted by: watcher on July 23, 2006 at 11:35 PM | PERMALINK

Yup. That Auschwitz story is another neocon lie. You folks are something.

"I'm sorry that is the best you could come up with. The report is German in name only. It takes all of five minutes to find out where the funding for this "German" report comes from. There is about as much objectivity in this report as there is in Fox News."

I'm just observing. No one in the world could convince you.

Posted by: Mike K on July 23, 2006 at 11:44 PM | PERMALINK

Zionism is evil. Those who oppose zionism are not anti semitic as Judaism and zionism are not the same entities. Those who oppose zionism oppose elite rule they oppose tyranny and oppression. Actions speak louder than words... research the history of zionism for yourself and see. See what Henry Makow thinks of zionism!

Posted by: Tony on July 23, 2006 at 11:52 PM | PERMALINK

Stop lying Brooksfoe........... especially stop lying on this thread where one of your own has demonstrated what utter scum he is. Are you not ashamed?

Ashamed of what? Of being right? Of knowing what I'm talking about? Of being capable of writing in a grammatically correct and literate fashion?

Posted by: brooksfoe on July 24, 2006 at 12:45 AM | PERMALINK

fuck jews
fuck em good
fuckem till they bleed
fuckem dead

Posted by: joikjjjfy on July 24, 2006 at 1:39 AM | PERMALINK

if you dont like it
go fuck yourself
death to jew lovers
death to you
death to bush
the war crime trials are coming
the rope awaits you

Posted by: hdizycitrsyidt on July 24, 2006 at 1:43 AM | PERMALINK

Does anyone know that what Hamas & Hezbollah did, was a reaction to Israel kidnapping citizens of Gaza & Lebanon. Naom Chomsky stated that 2 civilians-a doctor & his brother were kidnapped prior to the capture of the IDF soldier.
Also, Israel has so many Lebanese held in its jails-NONE have been charged of any crimes. Samir Quntar has been held for 27 years.
Israel can do whatever it wants to do & everyone should just disappear. We help Israel but Hezbollah cannot get help from other contries.
See the photo of Dana Olmert in Yediot Aharonot-she is carrying sign "STOP MURDERING CIVILIANS".
So all Israelis are not bad.
This attack on Lebanon is for WATER- ISRAEL needs badly from the Litani river in Lebanon.
Shalom !!!

Posted by: Bill on July 24, 2006 at 2:03 AM | PERMALINK

Meta, for Mike K, who wrote: "I know there are individuals who oppose Israel for their own reasons but it is all drifting into 'If only those damned Jews would go away.'

Well, uh, I think you're imagining things.

The very few peddlers of anti-Semitic stuff on this thread (I count 'watcher'; the random-character person; and 'salam' with his claims that all Jews of European descent, presumably even the third-generation ones, should leave Israel -- he can respond if he doesn't believe in kicking Jewish children out of the only homes they've ever known) are mostly being ignored by the other commentators. What can you say to nutcases like that?

This is why the responses are mainly to the apologists for Israel. If a Hezbollah apologist whose writing wasn't well off the deep end showed up, I certainly hope he'd get a sharp response too.

Posted by: Anon. on July 24, 2006 at 2:22 AM | PERMALINK

What sick bastard likes the idea of mass murder of civilians. It happened on 9/11, and it is happening now.

Only this time, it seems that some people are so full of hate, they don't mind visiting a 9/11 on the Lebanese.

Disgusting, fascist bullshit, it's sad to see people of the free world sucked in to supporting this shit.

Posted by: M on July 24, 2006 at 3:17 AM | PERMALINK

Stefan:One cannot simultaneously say that (a) Hezbollah cannot have soldiers because it is not a legitimate government and (b)Hezbollah is an elected part of the legitimate Lebanese government.

You can say those things simultaneously. Hizbollah has elected representatives in the government but it can not accumulate 20,000 rockets and build bunkers with Syrian/Iranian support unless specifically authorized by a vote in the Parliament. If Hizbollah has soldiers they have to be governed by the Lebanese government.

The California Republican Party, analogously, has representatives in the US congress, but it doesn't have the authority to amass its own army and wage war against Mexico. Where the Arizona vigilantes patrol the US/Mexico border they may be legal, but it is certainly illegal for them to launc rockets at the people of Mexico. If the Arizonans did launch rockets against the Mexicans, and of the US and Arizona governments persistently did nothing to stop them, it might be appropriate for the Mexican army to attack the Arizonans and their strongholds. Nothing like that has happened because, among other reasons, the US is monitoring the Arizonan vigilantes, and has warned them not to violate the law. That's what the Lebanese govt needs to do against Hizbollah.

Posted by: republicrat on July 24, 2006 at 3:40 AM | PERMALINK

Israel bombs civilans.

Some people who post here have simply not accepted that Hizbollah puts its military hardware in homes and apartments, and carries its military hardware in civilian trucks. Israel is not targeting civilians; Hizbollah keeps its targets among civilians.

Posted by: republicrat on July 24, 2006 at 3:49 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz,

using your logic, all Jews killed in WWII are responsible for their deaths as they did not leave Germany.

Think about it.

Posted by: Augustine on July 24, 2006 at 7:48 AM | PERMALINK

republicrat's comments would be easlier to accept *if* Isreal had not bombed civilian vehicles with white flags fleeing areas where Israel has warned residents to leave

Posted by: pablo on July 24, 2006 at 7:54 AM | PERMALINK

Kevin,

Regarding your original question- probably quite well. 'Nuance' would widen the definition rather than narrow it.

Sincerely,

theperegrine

Posted by: theperegrine on July 24, 2006 at 9:14 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz's logic is indistinguishable from the al Qaeda reasoning that justifies bombing buses or plowing a plane into the world trade center.

Posted by: Liberal Chris on July 24, 2006 at 9:40 AM | PERMALINK

This is very dangerous for Israel. Given that most of the Israeli adult population does some sort of military service, then it's understandable if their opponents classify all these people as in some way non civilian.

Also, how come the Israeli response to kidnappings of military personnel is way heavier than their response to murder of their civilians and children?

Posted by: Edward Bailey on July 24, 2006 at 10:26 AM | PERMALINK

I am really amazed at what lengths people will go to ditort the truth just to satisfy themselves ! I mean get real ! a civilian is a civilian no matter what ! and there people here who are supporting Dershowitz view ! I mean , no offense , but use your brain . the us media , government and big business is being controlled by the jewish lobby and the ordinary americans are being used economically , morally and militarily !

WAKE UP AMERICA ! its not about israel being a democracy or an ally or something its all about the strong jewish lobby in the US . It won't be wrong to say that the americans need to be freed from this exploitation , but whos gonna do that ! certainly not usama maybe someday the US will realize what it has been doing wrong , why the world especially the muslim world hates them so much !

Posted by: junaid naseer on July 24, 2006 at 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

Billmon has this moral cripple pegged:
http://billmon.org/archives/002554.html

Posted by: Nemesis on July 24, 2006 at 11:03 AM | PERMALINK

a civilian is a civilian no matter what !

You need to reread the Geneva conventions, and refresh your understanding of who is at fault when military targets are intentionally place in residential areas.

Posted by: republicrat on July 24, 2006 at 12:11 PM | PERMALINK

My God!

This is butchery! I've seen HORRIFIC pictures of Israeli attacks on family cars and such of people who were on the roads leaving and the Israelis bombed them to bits ANYWAY. Ripped open bodies of lots and lots of children. It was the most HORRIBLE thing I've ever seen. God help us. But he won't. We are doomed and damned for our participation in these atrocities ever since Bush stole the White House. Christ Almighty.

Posted by: jude on July 24, 2006 at 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

republicrat's comments would be easlier to accept *if* Isreal had not bombed civilian vehicles with white flags fleeing areas where Israel has warned residents to leave

Just as Hizbollah intentionally puts its rockets in people's homes, so does Hizbollah intentionally put white flags on vehicles carrying arms and munitions.In order to avoid censure, Israel has to do an impossibly perfect job of distinguishing between military and purely non-military targets, while Hiabullah intentionally disguises military targets as civilian, and aims its rockets indiscriminately at Israei cities, making no effort to select military targets.

There is a double asymmetry: Israeli is more careful to protect civilians (its own and its enemy's), while at the same time more harshly criticized for inflicting civilian casualties than its enemies are criticized.

Posted by: republicrat on July 24, 2006 at 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

Everyone needs to get informed about Israel from sources that are not mainstream mass media. There are a multitude of resources, and I would recommend people start using them now.

Dershowitz has been shown to be a phoney big-time by Norman Finkelstein in BEYOND CHUTZPAH.

Posted by: Jeremiah A-Z on July 24, 2006 at 12:42 PM | PERMALINK

I am really amazed at what lengths people will go to ditort the truth just to satisfy themselves ! I mean get real ! a civilian is a civilian no matter what ! and there people here who are supporting Dershowitz view ! I mean , no offense , but use your brain . the us media , government and big business is being controlled by the jewish lobby and the ordinary americans are being used economically , morally and militarily !

WAKE UP AMERICA ! its not about israel being a democracy or an ally or something its all about the strong jewish lobby in the US . It won't be wrong to say that the americans need to be freed from this exploitation , but whos gonna do that ! certainly not usama maybe someday the US will realize what it has been doing wrong , why the world especially the muslim world hates them so much !

Posted by: junaid naseer on July 24, 2006 at 12:58 PM | PERMALINK

{There is a double asymmetry: Israeli is more careful to protect civilians (its own and its enemy's), while at the same time more harshly criticized for inflicting civilian casualties than its enemies are criticized.-Posted by: republicrat.}

Israel has kidnapped so many innocent civilians from Gaza, West Bank & Lebanon. How many have been charged of any crimes. This reaction by both Hamas & Hezbollah was to that effect-2 civilians were kidnapped by the IDF from Gaza just prior to the capture of the IDF soldier. The soldiers that were captured by Hezbollah were captured within Lebanon-what were they doing in Lebanon ?
Don't be so ignorant-even Dana Olmert knows that Israel kills innocent civilians, hence she was seen at a recent peace rally in Israel with a sign "STOP MURDERING CIVILIANS".
Israel is fighting this war for water from the Litani river in the Lebonon.
Just like 911 was blamed on the Muslims- can you prove that even a single Muslim name was on any of the passenger lists. I have seen all the passenger lists - every passenger has been matched with his place of work. The govt. claim is that the terrorists bought their tickets with credit cards. Also can you show me any pictures that can verify the govts. claim that a 757 struck the Pentagon.
So, please don't lie !!!

Shalom !!!

Posted by: Sandra on July 24, 2006 at 1:28 PM | PERMALINK

Republicrat,

The Israelis tell the people to flee and then kill fleeing people.

You think the Israelis don't kill civilians on purpose?

In your mind Israelis are infallible, they never do any wrong. What a morally corrupt government we have. They are war Criminals and Dershowitz knows it.

Posted by: Renate on July 24, 2006 at 3:14 PM | PERMALINK

Republicrat,

And the Israelis also said the Lebanese do store the rockets under their beds, I thought it was a joke, no, they really said it, but show no evidence either.
They did not say how they would carry them to the Hezbollah.
You pretend the Israelis are so defenseless compared to Hezbollah, they drop the bombs and we should feel so sorry for poor defenseless Israel.

Posted by: Renate on July 24, 2006 at 3:25 PM | PERMALINK

It is quite clear that this is a re-run of the terrorist methods used in the 40's to establish Israel to force people from their homes and then claim it was voluntary, except that this time the mad ******* are trying for 'Greater Israel' and their actions are attempting to 'fulfil' prophecy in Ezekiel see: http://www.iamthewitness.com/EzekielExcerpts.html

I urge all Israelis of goodwill to leave Israel and urge everyone to promote the boycott of Israel, these are the only 'weapons' required to stop them

Posted by: Lawrence on July 24, 2006 at 4:21 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah...right..

"Dirt Bag" Dershowitz, also known as "Torture Warrant" has lots of Zio-Nazi approved nomenclature for his tribe's ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous Arab population in the stolen and annexed nation of Palestine. One of the terms he likes to use for it is "Massive Urban Renewal"

I wonder what kind of term I'd have for somebody who decides to beat him to a bloody pulp and make him eat his own testicles: Patriot

Posted by: The Watcher on July 24, 2006 at 4:48 PM | PERMALINK

Yeah...right..

"Dirt Bag" Dershowitz, also known as "Torture Warrant" has lots of Zio-Nazi approved nomenclature for his tribe's ethnic cleansing campaign against the indigenous Arab population in the stolen and annexed nation of Palestine. One of the terms he likes to use for it is "Massive Urban Renewal"

I know what kind of term I'd have for somebody who decides to beat Dershowitz to a bloody pulp and make him eat his own testicles: American Patriot

Posted by: The Watcher on July 24, 2006 at 4:50 PM | PERMALINK

After committing the 9/11, 7/7, 3/11, 7/11, and all the other atrocities throughout the world, the Zionist/Jewish mob has the audacity to massacre civilians in Lebanon and call them terrorists for doing so. How pathetic. Mad love and respects to Hezb'Allah. May God destroy the Jewish terrorist apparatus that did 9/11,7/7, Bali bombings, Filipines bombings, 3/11, 7/11, and a host of other terrorist atrocities throughout the world. They were the ones who sent the US to kill Arabs on behalf of international jews. Don't forget the bolshevik communist revolution by these same dirty jews that killed more than 60 million innocent civilians (and btw Hitler was a jew who didn't kill 6 million of his kind-maybe less than a million at most).

Posted by: Abu Jihad on July 24, 2006 at 7:40 PM | PERMALINK

By this logic, were those in New Orleans who couldn't leave the city somehow collaborating with hurricane Katrina?

Posted by: Kelly Green on July 24, 2006 at 7:43 PM | PERMALINK

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Dershowitz is a disgrace to Harvard Law, America, and the human race. He should be confined to a mental asylum in Siberia.

Posted by: Godspell on July 24, 2006 at 11:07 PM | PERMALINK

Another awful Zionazi trying to justify another jewish inspired holocaust.

Israel and all that support it, are no less guilty of genocidal murder then the Nazi were.

Posted by: Pepper on July 25, 2006 at 10:42 AM | PERMALINK

So this guy is basically saying Israel is entitled to operate the modern day equivilent of an Einzatzgroupen?

No one can dispute these bastards have learnt by experience.

Posted by: papa joe on July 25, 2006 at 10:45 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz or Aushowitz? one & the same

Posted by: AD on July 25, 2006 at 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz might be qualified to work as a janitor somewhere, but then again he is so twisted that I wouldn't trust him at that job either.

Posted by: Laddie on July 25, 2006 at 8:43 PM | PERMALINK

Very good articles are posted at www.rense.com
Hitler was born a JEW, who killed his own kind. But all those killings are blamed on the Gentiles.
Some say that Hitler was really a British spy(a book has been published explaining that).
David Cole a JEW from LA interviewed Dr. Piper (Director of the Auschwitz Museum)who told him that everything at Auschwitz was fabricated on the orders of Stalin.
Who knows what really happened at Auschwitz.
Hezbollah was formed in 1982 after Israel attacked Lebanon. The Muslim folks in that part of Lebanon are very poor & get a lot of social support from the Hezbollah. Maybe US govt. should give $$$ to those poor Muslims, instead of giving all to Israel. So maybe they won't need to get help from the Hezbollah.

Posted by: bob on July 25, 2006 at 11:30 PM | PERMALINK

Dershowitz should just STFU.

Posted by: Alan Dee on July 26, 2006 at 2:54 AM | PERMALINK




 

 

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