Life imitates art.

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

As a recovering Wahabi, someone that has met Yusuf Al-Qaradawi twice, I can say with a straight face, that the Christian Zionists use language so extreme as to make the most hardcore jihadi blush.

The Wall Street Journal writes today about John Hagee, the man who's brought "Christian Zionism" into the mainstream: How charming.

Thanks for your sarcasm Kevin. It's because of sarcasm like yours Democrats are losing elections. Christian Zionism is widely supported by the American people because Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. The best way for a Jew to follow the Torah is to become a Christian because Christianity and the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Torah.

As the WSJ article notes, "Christian evangelicals" "now number about 50 million". It is by mocking people who believe in Christianity that you drive Americans away from voting for liberals and Democrats. No matter how hard Obama and Hillary Clinton like to pretend liberals can be tolerant of people of faith, we know liberals aren't tolerant because of the contempt expressed by people like you.

Al:

Of course, the righteous consignment of 2/3rds of all Jews to the flames of Hell as per Revelations is, as we all know, the sine qua non of tolerance for diversity :)

enozinho:

What's your ethnic nationality, if you don't mind me enquiring?

I'll take a stab and guess Lebanese ... second guess Egyptian.

Bob

enozinho:

I like "recovering Wahabi."

I like to refer to myself, as per Frank Zappa, as an escaped Catholic :)

Bob

The best way for a Jew to follow the Torah is to become a Christian because Christianity and the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Torah.

That's funny. That's exactly what Islam says about Christianity and Judaism.

Bob: I'm American. Catholic father, Quaker mother. I converted at 16 after watching "Rambo III" and "Not Without My Daughter". Seriously. Now I'm just a very bad Muslim with a Brasilian wife. :)

enozinho:

"Not Without My Daughter." Never heard of that movie ...

Can you give a thumbnail premise?

Bob

Yeah Sally Fields with her Flying Nun series rocked a lot of people's faith!

R.L.:

I always thought she had a crush on that playboy Carlos ...

Bob

She kept it under her hat!

I don't think that the Israelis care about the Christian Zionists' belief in Armegeddon. Support is support and they will take it where they can get it. It's not like they believe in the Rapture and fear it.

Bob

Think ABC movie of the week. American woman marries Arabic man, has daughter.

Visits Arabic country (or moves there)desides to leave but hubby's family claims posession of daughter and tells Sally Fields to beat it. Hilarity ensues. Based on true story.

Google it ya lazy putz ;)

Not Without My Daughter

Sally Field marries an Iranian doctor, has a kid, and takes a trip to visit the family in Iran. The Iranian father decides he wants to stay, says he's keeping the kid... blah blah blah, typical Lifetime Channel crap.

What caught my 15 year-old eye was the way they made the Iranian extended family look like animals, stuffing food in their faces with their hands and such. I rembembered "Rambo III" and how Stallone was having a jolly old time with the Mujahideen just a few years before, back when our enemy was the Soviet Union.

It became clear that we had a new enemy, the Muslims, coming out of nowhere from the perspective of a teenager. And that made me curious. Some people go Goth, I went Muslim. Such is life.

Enozinho, your wife should feel lucky you didn't see Torch Song Trilogy.

Keith G: "I just wanna be loved. Is that so wroooong?"

Hey, if your as cute as Matthew B. (and single)we could talk, but...

enozinho:

Yeah I remember that description ...

What's the name of that movie about a wealthy Iranian and his wife who buy an old house out from under the ne'er-do-well American young woman who just inherited it from her father? They spend the movie fighting over the property.

At the end of the movie the Iranian guy -- a military man with an intense sense of honor -- kills himself by duct taping plastic around his upper body? Helluva film ... the Iranian actors (the guy and his wife) were great.

Jesus ... did you study the hell out of John Walker Lindh when that happened? Were you still a Wahab when the war began?

Bob

Jesus ...

Interesting way to address a lapsed Muslim....

Back on topic, Hagee is in San Antonio and here in Houston he is on one of our several church channels many times a day.

He is a manic fire and brimstone thrower.” Man is in charge of family....wife must follow husband” kinda crap...ceaselessly proclaiming the end days in stark threatening tones. I bet these last two weeks have given his Willy a holy hard on.

enozinho: As a recovering Wahabi...

rmck1: I like to refer to myself, as per Frank Zappa, as an escaped Catholic

Now if we can just popularize the notion of the recovering Zionist.

Bob....The House of Sand and Fog.

Ben Kinsley starred in that one

Since the number of Jews who have answered the questions raised by this article is few, and the number of Jews who have ignored it is almost all, and it is so relevant to what is going on in Gaza and Lebanon, I feel it needs to be posted again:

WHY DOESN'T THE MEDIA PUBLISH THIS? I wonder indeed.

Israel Fakes a Provocation (the "kidnapping" of Cpl Gilad Shalit)

The following passages in italics are from:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/26/wmid26.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/26/ixnews.html

Last night two Israeli soldiers were killed and another kidnapped in a dawn attack by Palestinian militants who tunnelled under Gazas heavily protected border.

The attackers, believed to number seven or eight, surprised Israeli forces when they appeared at first light through a tunnel on open ground 300 yards inside Israel near a kibbutz.

Gaza is built on old semi-consolidated sand dunes. It is extremely unlikely that anyone could tunnel 500, or more, yards in the sandy ground of Gaza (300 yards into Israel plus 200 yards of no-mans land plus more to the tunnel entrance), without the tunnel collapsing at some point.

They split into three groups before launching simultaneous attacks on three Israeli defensive positions - a look-out tower, plus a tank and an armoured personnel carrier, both dug in, facing Gaza.

If you were only seven or eight, would you split into three groups? If you were only two, or three, would you attack a tank over flat ground, manned by four soldiers waiting inside to kill you?

They blew open the tanks rear doors with a missile fired from point-blank range before tossing grenades inside. Two of the tank crew died and another was severely wounded but the final crew member, the gunner, was forced out of the wreckage at gunpoint.

The rear doors are blown off and a few grenades popped inside. Tanks are not made to fall apart. Blowing off the rear doors would have taken a blast sufficient to seriously hurt those inside. The grenades would have then made mincemeat of them. One wonders if it is standard practice to wear a bulletproof vest inside a hot tank. One would think that the tank would be bulletproof enough not to require such a vest. Can Israeli tanks stop bullets, or not?

Later reports, from the New York Times and Guardian, tell use that Shalit suffered only minor injuries to his abdomen and one arm, even though everyone else in the tank was severely wounded or killed. Shalit would have been less than three feet away from those killed (there is no spare room in a tank).

Israeli trackers said they found his blood-stained bulletproof vest close to the Gaza perimeter fence.

The militants force Shalit to take off his bulletproof vest and leave it close to the Gaza concentration camp fence, in order to help the Israelis with their investigation.

By the way, whose blood is it on his bulletproof vest? Did his minor wounds bleed profusely, or was it the other soldiers blood and guts all over him. Pity their bulletproof vests didn't save them.

Meanwhile, two other militants attacked a nearby concrete watchtower.... The troop carrier was also damaged in another attack but it was unoccupied. The attackers then escaped back into Gaza by cutting their way through the perimeter fence.

Interestingly, the attackers escaped easily by cutting through the (electrified) perimeter fence, yet cutting through the perimeter fence in order to get in, was so hard to do, that they burrowed through half a mile of sandy ground instead. Something wrong with this story, perhaps?

After all this commotion, the soldiers in all the nearby Gaza concentration camp guard-towers, manage to miss a few Arabs running the 300 yards, over flat ground, back to the perimeter fence, miss them when they cut through it, and miss them running across no-mans land to safety. Anyway why, you may ask, did they not return through the tunnel they had painstakingly dug? Perhaps, they wanted to prove the total incompetence of the Israeli soldier.

If you believe this sad tale, I have a bridge to sell you.

The Hamas political leadership sought to distance itself from the incident last night when a spokesman said it had no knowledge of the fate of Cpl Shilat. Ghazi Hamad, a spokesman, said: "We are calling on the resistance groups, if they do have the missing soldier to protect his life and treat him well."

Yes, the Hamas political leadership had no idea of the fate of Cpl Shilat, as the story is a total fabrication.

The Jew press then claims that the Popular Resistance Committees, the armed wing of Hamas and the (previously unknown) Army of Islam were jointly responsible for the kidnapping of Shilat.

Why three groups you may ask?

The reason for three groups, is so that each of them might believe that the other has the "kidnapped" soldier, when, in fact, none of them have him. He is sipping coffee in Tel Aviv.

And why did a "previously unknown" group put up its hand?

Well, just in case one of the groups had doubts that the other group had the "kidnapped" soldier, they certainly couldn't be sure the "previously unknown" group didn't have him,... because after all, they don't have any idea who is leading, or anyone in, this unknown group.

So the reason for the weird "I did it arrangement," is so that the Jew press can claim that the Arabs claimed responsibility, when all they have done, is to NOT deny they did it.

Oh yeah, the "previously unknown" group is a Jew invention. It doesn't exist, except in the Jew newspapers.

If you are not already convinced that the whole story is a fabrication, ask yourself; What were the four Israeli soldiers doing in the tiny confines of that dug-in tank? Ask your self; How long were they going to continue sitting in that tank? All day perhaps, or till they roasted in the desert sun? Or, till another group of four took over on the next shift? And of course, having four soldiers in just one tank, wont provide a defense, so there will have to be hundreds of tanks and hundreds of soldiers all sitting in these tanks,...

all waiting,... all waiting,... all waiting,.... for exactly what?

Waiting for Palestinian children to throw stones at them, perhaps? Perhaps, waiting attentively for militants to dig a half mile tunnel through sandy soil, pop up, and rush them over flat ground, but not attentively enough to see them approach? Perhaps, they were waiting for the Egyptian army to materialize, Star Trek like, from their bases hundreds of miles away on the other side of the Suez canal? I dont know,... you tell me why?

Yes, the story is a total fabrication. A fake provocation to start a war. Yes, the Jews are evil people.

As a godless zionist my main rational is simply getting all the crazies to go away. It's not perfect. Refugees need more freedom of movement and too many rapture-ready Christians are failing to enlist for service in Iraq.

Keith G:

Ben Kingsley -- dammit! His wife was the Iranian actress.

Great performance ...

Bob

I don't think that the Israelis care about the Christian Zionists' belief in Armegeddon. Support is support and they will take it where they can get it. It's not like they believe in the Rapture and fear it.

Posted by: Justin on July 27, 2006 at 2:58 AM | PERMALINK

Well I certainly would be concerned if a huge section of my support were people that were hoping for my destruction.

Who's fooling who here? Folks like Hagee believe that a holy war and the destruction of Isreal will bring about the second coming.

The Israeli's believe (and for good reason) that the neighboring Arabs want to destroy their country and "push them out into the sea" or "wipe them off the map" or whatever.

Now how could two sides, (1) hoping for the destruction of a state through holy war; and the other (2) trying to preserve a state by any means necessary reach the same consensus military policies?

As Kevin says, "fish or cut bait". Which sides diametrically opposed objectives do you think will result at the end of the day?

watcher:

Did you read my post on Holocaust denial in the Reality thread?

Wikipedia once again ate your lunch :)

Bob

Maybe we could even lure watcher to the middle east by laying a trail of Zyklon B.

The Jews have totally infiltrated the ranks of Christians.

I mean, how hard is it to say. Hi I'm Moshe and I'm a Christian, Jews are your brothers, support Israel.

In fact, I go to one of your seminaries and am now the minister of your church.

Don't forget, LOVE Israel, LOVE Jews and give lots of bucks to poor little ole, armed to the teeth, Israel, and God will LOVE you too.

If you don't believe this, just check out how many folk of Jewish descent are in positions of power in your Church.

toast:

I'd rather just stick a cannister of Zyklon B up his ass, myself.

You know ... de-louse him from the inside out :)

Bob

Bob...Wouldn't that give him gas?

Keith G:

I think he'd prolly feel a little *b l o a t e d* after that type of enema, sure.

Nothing a little death wouldn't cure, though :)

Bob

May be some one can give a relevant cinematical analogy!

Obviously, none of us here -- and I include myself -- understand or can encapsulate the danger arising from the fact that these guys have been able to ally and get close to the seat of US power to the extent that they actual;y influence events.

Because of the leader voted in, together with PNAC, AEI and AIPAC, this dangerous and misguided idea has actually helped divert the USA from its evolving foreign policy of the last 60 years to our own and the world's detriment.

We are now in a drastically developing dangerous situation.

Laugh on!

Bob. The following is the last post I made on the "Reality" thread,.. you didn't even attempt to rebut it, so what are you talking about?

In 1988 there was a trial in Canada (Zündel's trial).

Charles Biedermann, a representative of the Red Cross (ICRC), was called as a witness.

He said, that as of December 31, 1976, the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross was in possession of the names of 357,190 who died in the entire German concentration camp system.

He also said, that as of December 31, 1983, the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross was in possession of the names of 373,468 who died in the entire German concentration camp system.

Biedermann was shown a large, two volume work entitled Gedenkbuch prepared by the Federal Archive in Koblenz and published in 1962 as a gift from the Federal Republic of Germany to Israel.

The book records the names of those Jews known to have died in the German concentration camp system. It contains about 129,000 names.

What do you think of these numbers from the Red Cross and German government, Bob?

You can read more about them here: http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/10biedermann.html

'...President Bush sent a message to the gathering praising Mr. Hagee and his supporters for "spreading the hope of God's love and the universal gift of freedom." '

With that kind of love and freedom, well who needs enemies?

Meanwhile, piss off, wanker.

watcher:

I didn't bother to read it.

Wikipedia strafed it, though. That trial is duly covered in their articles on Holocaust denial and Methods of Holocaust denial. 'Nuff said, 'nuff read.

News flash: You're a troll with an axe to grind.

Wikipedia's an encyclopedia.

Your best bet here is to plead nolo contendre :)

Bob

Bob, hides from the truth.

Now Bob, remember that I tried to get you to state how many people YOU BELIEVED died at Auschwitz?

1) The 4,000,000 recorded on the Auschwitz plaque shown in this photo:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 4 million "victims".

This plaque was on display at Auschwitz from 1948 until about 1990 when the Soviets released certain documents found at Auschwitz.

2) The 1,500,000 recorded on the Auschwitz plaques shown in these photos:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims".
Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims" (Deutsch).

These plaques are currently on display at Auschwitz (English and German).

3) something closer to the 68,864 death certificates issued by German doctors at Auschwitz. These deaths certificates were issued between August 1941 and January 1944 and were found at Auschwitz by Soviet troops. They were then hidden by the Soviets till 1989 when Gorbechev presented them to the Red Cross.

Strangely, just after the Soviets released the deaths certificates the claimed number of dead at Auschwitz was reduced (by the Jews) from 4 million to 1.5 million.

So, Bob, 4,000,000 or 1,500,000 or about the one hundred thousand, according to the documented evidence.

Please, Bob, you still haven't told us which number you believe,....

watcher:

You hide from Wikipedia.

Bob

watcher:

That issue is specifically addressed in the Wikipedia article on Methods of Holocaust Denial which is in the Reality thread.

Why don't you go read it?

G'head. I dare ya :)

Bob

Bob said, "That issue is specifically addressed in the Wikipedia article on Methods of Holocaust Denial which is in the Reality thread."

Oh really Bobby boy. Why don't you summarize it all for us so we can understand it.

And Bob,... we certainly wouldn't consider your refusal to do such, as a reflection of your limited intellectual abilities.

watcher:

Of course I could easily go into the textfile I posted and excise the argument about 4 million vs 1.5 million. I won't, though.

Why? Because you're kind of, umm, beneath the effort.

You can't bait me, bro. I hardly need to thwack on *you* to establish my bona-fides here.

Truthfully, the community has a point that responding to you is counterproductive to this blog. It merely encourages you.

I just do it because I'm bored.

So uhh ... why don't you go read the article and confront the argument for yourself, eh?

Bob

Your best bet here is to plead nolo contendre :)

Bob

Posted by: rmck1 on July 27, 2006 at 4:10 AM | PERMALINK

Bob, I consider myself a relative neophyte to blogging and I try to read all or most of a thread before posting, but "watcher" has taught me to look at the poster and not waste time or "angst" on peripheral nonsense. Before this I read a lot of rubbish. This turn up (turnip) takes the biscuit.

I think I've gotten over responding to Al. I will no longer read warcher's trash.

Watcher, if you read this, I am of the generation that has read more about WWII than most would hope. Your typed crap is just that. Deffication on the truth of world history.

Don't bother to answer. I will not reply to such an unbalanced bigot who ignores the truth.

notthere:

I generally get a kick out of most trolls -- even Al and Jay. I find them genuinely amusing right at the moments when they think they're being the most obnoxious :)

But watcher's a different animal than our regular trolls. He's a hatemonger.

And if I were Kevin, I'd implement registration on this blog so we could ban him.

Hate speech is not free speech. It's yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Bob

The cartoon shows Mr Olmert standing on a balcony in a prison camp.

He is holding a sniper's rifle and a dead man is seen lying on the ground.

The drawing clearly alluded to the Hollywood film Schindler's List, in which a sadistic Nazi commander shoots Jewish prisoners for fun,...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5218002.stm

Gee,... that sounds somewhat familiar.

watcher:

The problem with all this bilge you spew, watcher -- is that it makes it harder to criticize Israel.

Existence of bona-fide anti-semites like yourself just feeds directly into Israeli paranoia: "See, everybody *is* out to get us!"

So if you're generally concerned about the Palestinians and the Arab world, and Israel's role in oppressing them -- every single post that crawls off your fingers only makes the situation worse for them.

Think about it. You're such a caracature of a frothing anti-semite that it's reasonable to speculate if you aren't a Mossad plant -- designed precisely to stir up the kinds of feelings of persecution that keep the Likudnik warmongers in the driver's seat.

Bob

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PZ Meyers has enjoined us to label such enthusiasts of the Apocalypse as Demented Fuckwits.

Sounds about right.

Was enozinho just now babbling about wasabi? I was wondering why my mouth was watering.

Bob. The problem with you, is that you have no answers.

I know that having no answers, is personally not a problem to you, as you are a professional liar, but it actually worries some people. They like to have answers.

Maybe you could find answers for them?

Bob, one problem with censoring trolls is that your replies would also have to be removed, else the rest of us would read them wondering "WTF is he going on about?"

Of course, some of us reply to the Chinese porn spam: XXX nailed it! Life in cyberspace.

The lessons are so simple and obvious. After thousands of years of tit-for-tat, revenge and retribution, it is time to think new thoughts!

No one can change the beliefs and behavior of a people by bombing them. You only add to their hatred.

Hitler thought he could demoralize the Brits with his bombs. He only strengthened their resolve.

The allies thought they could demoralize the Germans by obliterating their cities. The bombing only strengthened their resolve.

The Americans thought they could “shock and awe” the Sunnis into submission. The bombing only strengthened their resolve.

It’s so obvious even a fence post should be able to understand. How foolish to think we can make a people see our side of the argument by killing some of them. Do the surviving relatives rethink their behavior? All they think about is getting revenge.

Don’t bring up Hiroshima and Nagasaki in rebuttal, all you fence posts. As in WWII, if you start a war, you must go all the way and totally destroy the enemy, then spend bazillions to rebuild. Anything short and they will regroup and come after you again.

Deterrence is a word the Israelis throw around a lot. Hezbollah must understand it will be hit hard if it displeases the Israelis! What slow learners these Israelis are! I think it has something to do with Israel’s racist world view. We, the superior ones, God’s chosen people, could never be demoralized by a violent attack, but they, the inferior ones can be.

Bush and the Israelis: two peas in a pod. Round and round the wheel of killing goes. Where it stops, nobody knows.

Watcher slowly peeling down her panties. Watcher stroking herself, becoming aroused, arching her back, first cooing, then keening, finally ululating.

Okay, delete this one, too.

Why can't we just agree that the Isreal experiment was a failure? There will never be peace in the middle east as long as Isreal occupies Gaza and the West Bank.

Maybe it's time that Palestine and Isreal are made into one democratic state with all of its citizens having voting rights. Then Likud and Hamas can govern together in peace. It might take awhile to sort out, but hey, it took America awhile to get on track after the civil war.

"It became clear that we had a new enemy, the Muslims, coming out of nowhere from the perspective of a teenager. And that made me curious. Some people go Goth, I went Muslim. Such is life."

Considering that they destroyed the WTC towers, hit the Pentagon and killed some 3000 Americans and non-Americans in one morning, while the "moderate" Moslems danced in the streets overwhelmed with joy, I'd say enemy is about right.

So do you also lump all of the millions of christians out there in with Abortion clinic bombers, or do you reserve this kind of intolerance for muslims only?

"So if you're generally concerned about the Palestinians and the Arab world, and Israel's role in oppressing them -- every single post that crawls off your fingers only makes the situation worse for them."

You mean the culturally, scientifically, economically, socially, backwardness of the Islamic societies have nothing to do with the situation they are in?

And why are they so backwards? Wouldn't have anything to do with the west keeping their societies for developing, would it?

"So do you also lump all of the millions of christians out there in with Abortion clinic bombers, or do you reserve this kind of intolerance for muslims only?"

Show me that Christians in any significant numbers support bombing abortion clinics at even a fraction of Moslem support for suicide pizza parlors on a regular basis, I will gladly attack Christians.

BTW, can you remind me when was the last time Christians bombed an abortion clinic?

Religious lunatics have been anticipating the end of the world since the time of Alexander the Great and probably before and have tried to tie it to events from the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. to the Black Plague of the Middle Ages to Napoleon's conquest of Europe. Most biblical scholars who study the context and the literary structure of the Bible's authorship believe the Book of Revelation was written as a coded message from John to the early Christians and that 666 referred to the Emperor Nero, who persecuted the early Christians. Anyone who thinks they can interpret the Book of Revelations is full of crap and utterly misses the point of being a Christian, which is to follow in Christ's footsteps.

If Mr. Hagee thinks being a Christian means being a warmonger, he better re-read the words of Christ. War is a direct repudiation of Christ's admonition to love one another (including Muslims) as he has loved us and is wrong in every situation and for every reason.

You are right. The dates of abortion clinic bombings are definitely not repeated on tv on a daily basis by every republican politician or newscaster in America so I will forgive you for only remembering one date where something was blown up by 'religious fanatics.'

Do you poll Muslims on a regular basis to track their support of suicide bombings or are you simply talking out of your ass?

Shorter Hagee:

Let's kill Arabs to bring back Christ.

"And why are they so backwards? Wouldn't have anything to do with the west keeping their societies for developing, would it?"

Yeah, all the oil money flowing from the West and the rest of the world is really hampering their development. The solution is obviously less western influence and money, but more Islam!

So you believe the US really wants a developed and educated middle east? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

oh god, idiot.

The shitty little country has a history of bombing the United Nations.

Remember Qana, Lebanon, April 18, 1996?

They massacred some hundred or so people that time. Stupid Jews.

Pictures of the Israeli/Jew massacre of Lebanese at the United Nations compound at Qana, Lebanon.

James of DC said: "Bush and the Israelis: two peas in a pod."

You are exactly correct,... two Jews in a pod.

George W Bush is a Jew (who pretends to be a Christian)!

This partly explains the weirdness of the man and why he never acts like a Christian.

Here, have a look at him praying at the Wailing Wall.

He could be praying to Allah, but it doesn't look like it. And what is that funny cap thing on his head?

Yes, Bush is a Jew, he has Jews all through his family tree.

For example, Levi Pierce and his mother Barbara Pierce (Levi and Barbara are related) are both Jews.

Pierce is an Americanization of the Jewish name Perez/Peretz/Peres. The name is of Hebrew origin. According to Genesis 38, Pharez (the spelling Perez is also used (in the First Book of Chronicles)) was a son of Judah born to Tamar (who incidentally, was Judah's daughter in law (Judah, the father of the Jews, was a dirty old man)).

In case you are interested Levi and Barbara Pierce are related as follows:

Thomas Holbrook (d. 1677) m. Jane Powys
.John Holbrook m. Elizabeth Stream
|.Hannah Holbrook m. Ephraim Pierce
| .Ephraim Pierce m. Mary Low
|  .Mial Pierce m. Judith Round
|   .Nathan Pierce m. Lydia Martin
|    .Isaac Pierce m. Anna Fitch
|     .LEVI PIERCE m. Betsey Slade Wheeler
|      .Elizabeth Slade Pierce m. Courtland Philip Livingston Butler
|       .Mary Elizabeth Butler m. Robert Emmet Sheldon
|        .Flora Sheldon m. Samuel Prescott Bush
|         .Prescott Sheldon Bush m. Dorothy Walker
|          .GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH m. Barbara Pierce
|           .GEORGE W. BUSH, US President
.Thomas Holbrook m. Jane Kingman
 .Peter Holbrook m. Alice Godfrey
  .Sylvanus Holbrook m. Naomi Cook
   .John Holbrook m. Zilpah Thayer
    .John Holbrook m. Rhoda Thayer
     .John Holbrook m. Mercy Hill
      .Chloe Holbrook m. James Pierce
       .Jonas James Pierce m. Kate Pritzel
        .Scott Pierce m. Mabel Marvin
         .Marvin Pierce m. Pauline Robinson
          .BARBARA PIERCE

Doesn't that mean BUSH's mother is his cousin? Always thought Bush was inbred.

In the 2004 US election you got to choose between the Jew Kerry and the Jew Bush.

Some choice,... like the choice between the front side of a piece of paper, or the back side.

So the result of the election has already been decided before you get to "choose".

I would rather have the Iranian type of election.

And here's a couple of snaps of Bush's grandaddy,.. sure looks Jewish to me:

Prescott Sheldon Bush with Ike.
Prescott Sheldon Bush with Nixon.

Assorted shots of Bush with Rabbis:

Bush visiting a St. Petersburg synagogue on a rushed trip to Russia.
Another shot from the St. Petersburg synagogue visit.
Jeb Bush celebrates Chanukah with assorted Rabbis.

watcher, just go away. nobody here gives a fuck.

"watcher, just go away. nobody here gives a fuck."

What?!?!? You are all Jews,.. surely there is one or two non Jews for you to deceive? What a surprise.

I've seen anecdotal evidence that fundamentalist and/or evangelical Christians have made serious inroads into local governments - in particular school boards.
I've even seen -some- instances of it, even here in MA, where you can't go five miles along any given Main Street without passing a Unitarian Meetinghouse.
What's it like elsewhere out there?

And (finally getting to the point) have these groups been showing signs of being Christian Zionists? What's that done to the dialogue locally?

Well bold face typing always convinces me, you fucking idiot.

I saw Not Without My Daughter in the theater with my then-girlfriend. She noted that in the memoir that the movie was based on, there were signs that the husband had some issues with control even before the family moved to Iran. But in the movie, the husband was Stereotypical Mellow All-American Dad while he was in America, and then a few days of exposure to Iran and his relatives there turned him into Stereotypical Dangerous Muslim Patriarch.

P.S.: as Harlan Ellison said, if the Jews really control the world, then some yiddele out there has two shares of it, because nobody's given me my piece of the action....

I was kinda interested in watcher's statement that Bob was a professional liar. I never knew you could get paid for that, and I'd like to learn how. It might be a quick way to make a few bucks on the side.

Sincerely,

Franklin Pierce, 14th President of the United States and secret Jew. I didn't want anyone to find out, but now that it's out I want the whole frikkin' world to know it.

These people are insane. Normally the dreaded "outrage fatigue" would cause me to gloss over something like this, but here we have the PM of Israel and the President of the freakin United States kowtowing to these psychos. WTF?

I'm Watchers friend. He is actually an active member of the ADL and a neocon who is trying to discredit any criticism of Israel by outnumbering the legitimate criticism with his outrageous rants. He's hoping to drown out the legitimate criticism of Israeli violence and US support and confuse criticism with hatred and racism. He's got nothing better to do all day and he is obsessed to the point of madness with stifling the rational debate.

You are a liar watchersfriend. I know because I don't have any friends you idiot. Why do you think I spend all my time here.

You boys having fun?

That was me watcher. I'm not a boy.

S'alright?

"...blow them all away in the name of the Lord." -- Jerry Falwell on CNN, 10/29/04

wow, this is some crazy thread.
war is stupid. and it kills people.

The situation with Israel and Palestine is a perfect example of why our Founding Fathers were right to insist on separation between church and state and a warning of what could happen here if that separation was allowed to further erode. What we have now in the middle east is a religious apartheid state. Native Israelis and Palestinians are the same race and they used to live in relative harmony in a single country. Only their religion truly divides them, although several generations of Zionism have caused socioeconomic divisions as well. Its hard to argue about who is right and wrong without some degree of religious bias, and as I see it, both sides are terribly wrong. When religion becomes the basis for the state, rational forces are pushed aside and oppression of one kind or another inevitably follows. Don’t think it cant happen here.

The only way I see out of this infernal and eternal mess is for the international community to admit that the idea of the two state solution was a well intentioned but misguided mistake. Just like South Africa, Israel and Palestine need to form a secular coalition government dedicated to the progress of all of its citizens, and religion must become a private affair.

This may sound a little crazy, but if you think about it, it is much less crazy than any of the other options on the table. It is much less likely to eventually drag the region into a wider war and could encourage surrounding countries to move away from theocracy. It would take some time, because so many people in the region and internationally are invested in the two state solution, but as they say, when you find yourself in a deep hole…

Watcher,

Belive it or not, there are many jews, like myself, that do not support Israel's current actions, or the concept of Zionism. I'm a jew, and I belive that AIPAC has too much influence in this country. I'm a Jew, but I belive that the US's policy toward Israel and the Middle East at large is a disaster. However, I'm also a jew who lost two great-grandparents, three great-uncles, a great-aunt, and a grandparent to Hitler's Holocaust. ALL were killed at Auschwitz. One of my uncles was an 8 month old baby when my great-grandmother was sent to Auschwitz. A soldier took him from her arms, set him on the ground, and smashed his head in with the butt of a rifle.

Your poisinous words are easily refuted. Jews are not an "evil" people - how white trailer trash of you. Jews are just people. People do f'd up things sometimes, and Israel lately has done a lot of f'd up things. But to deny the Holocaust, when the evidence is so overwhelming - and personal - reflects very poorly on you and any argument you try to make. Regardless of the topic of discussion or what side of the argyument you take, it will always linger in the back of a rational person's mind - if you can be convinced of this easily refuted neo-nazi tripe, what other mindless drivel have you been or could be convinced of? Do you we landed on the moon? Is global warming real? Is the United States secretly run by a Triumverate of the Kennedys, the Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders, with his wee beady little eyes, and a secret ingrediant in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly?

So the odious Peeper is still working on The Final Solution at the Wannsee Villa - Say hi to Reinhard and the gang.

Fat boy Hagee is rising in the ranks - Love his Comedy Hour over at Trinity Broadcasting - He was such a hoot spewing venom at Clinton - And those folks in San Antonio keep the Ka-Ching, Ka-Ching flowing at his altar.

I think I just discovered how the world works. Watching cnn tonight, I saw them use this oldie but goodie:

“everyone is surprised at how tough this fight has become, the Israelis were supposed to take several days to get this done, and now we’re going on two weeks of stalemate…”

sound familiar?….having a little sense of deja vu?

That line was almost a direct quote from cnn chief jew hater christiane amanpour.

Now what I’m driving at is this….be it Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Lebanon…whenever the good guys go in to fight the islamonazis, after initial quick successes, the media and the un and the spineless euroweenies start braying about civilian casualties and us wielding too big a stick. So we respond by being more selective in our targeting, showing restraint, and pulling our punches. We fight the war with growing concern about our image in the “world community”.

The result is that the enemy becomes resurgent, they inflict countless atrocities on us while we are being gentlemen, and we get stuck in a manufactured stalemate or a no-win holding action. The media and our “allies” create the quagmire, it’s the bastard offspring of all those who decry our efforts and force us, through their lamentations and clever skewing of their field reporting, to restrict our efforts…..to show “restraint“…to be more sensitive of collateral damage. It’s good for ratings and good for generating a round of good ole fashioned US/Israel bashing.

That’s why our enemies deliberately take up residence in sensitive locations like mosques, and hospitals, and un observation posts. They know the PR value of innocent casualties. The islamobeasts play our own media against us, and the field reporters continue to be their most potent weapon…they conduct the PR and image war brilliantly, and the experienced field reporters they dupe just keep bending over and taking it in the arse for them. All while the followers of the religion of beasts laugh at them and find another skirt or diaper to use as a firing position.

Hell, who needs wmd when you got msm?

Great comment frome someone else on another blogsite.

Wow. Did this get off topic or what?
Did we forget that we have American Christian Jihadists (Crusaders) supported by the president of the United States, who actually endorse the killing of others based on their religious belief?
What's so Christian about that?
Do they understand that the "rapture" was not even talked about in the original gospels, and this "prophesy" is used as a political tool to promote hate and destruction?
Who would Jesus torture, kill, bomb?
Christian Zionists are nothing more than than the other side of the coin as Wahabbi Islamists.
Death and hate in the name of faith, supported by the executive branch of the US government.
That's totally insane.

"Christian Zionists are nothing more than than the other side of the coin as Wahabbi Islamists.
Death and hate in the name of faith, supported by the executive branch of the US government.
That's totally insane."

And this is all a total lie.

Chrisitan Zionists are unfortunately lashing out because of their frustration. They have never launched any missles though unlike their counterparts.

The US gov't is trying to kill those that do HATE, moron.

I was kinda interested in watcher's statement that Bob was a professional liar. I never knew you could get paid for that, and I'd like to learn how.

You could get appointed White House Press Secretary, for instance.

Jay, you must be a good christian, you sound like one. Christians do have a Culture of Death if I have ever seen or heared of one.
All they can think of is to kill, they just want their Armageddon, come hell or high water.

As long as others are doing the dying.

I am actually not much of a christian at all. I believe when man attempts to interpret the pure word of God, it is inherently perverted regardless whether the interpretation is Islam, Christian or Judaism. I do feel however that Islam is by far the more perverted and violent interpretation.

"Man" is not as smart and brilliant as we all seem to think we are. Nor do any of us have the right interpretaion.

Just What is Israel Up to? Good question....

http://nuralcubicle.blogspot.com/
excerpt:

"By attributing the responsibility for today’s violence to Hamas and Hezbollah alone, the international community knowingly acts as a conduit for Israeli arguments. A sinister mechanism is turning and no one knows how it will end. As in the past, it appears that the Israeli Government is driving its adversaries to commit acts that will then serve as one more Israeli justification to the international community for new initiatives that in turn will provoke fresh violence? From Hamas and Gaza we’ve migrated to Hezbollah and Lebanon. Is the finish line for this insane race really Damascus or Tehran?

As the end of George Bush’s term of office approaches, the international community is now in a phase of tense relations with Syria as well as with Iran. Will this conjuncture, now that Iraq is prostrate, be seized by the Israeli government to settle on its own terms the question of its most encumbering neighbors? If so, what will it cost to the rest of the world? Once again, the Palestinians will find themselves in “zugzwang”, as they say in chess --forced by the Israeli government to make a losing play. Will the international community let itself be swept along into this kind of strategy yet again?" (my emphasis added)

r burgundy is right. Hagee is head of a cult and his followers are cultists and fanatics. Their 'religion' should be referred to as a cult - a violent cult. They are not Christian. Hagee and bush are the proverbial "false prophets" and money changers for which Jesus had contempt. These may be the end-times but these fat preachers and the people in bed with them like bush sure are determined to go out with a bang and a bundle of cash, leading the high life and leaving a trail of destruction and despair in their wake.

As for Jay, you really are filled with hate, calling people beasts. You are just about one wave short of a shipwreck if you get my drift. Do you really think a tiny Lebanese Christian baby is your enemy and that it is just to kill them? If you prick an Arab do they not bleed? if you bomb them do they not get blown to bits?

So Israel was responsible for amassaing over 13,000 Katyusha rockets aimed at their own civilians?

Israel was responsible for Hezbollahs recent incursion and killing of Israeli soldiers?

Israel is responsible for not conceeding enough land in Gaza for Hamas?

Israel is responsible for Iran arming Hezbollah through Syria via the Demascus-Beirut highway?

Israel is responsible for leaving Lebanon in 2000 thereby allowing Hezbollah to set up shop?

"By attributing the responsibility for today’s violence to Hamas and Hezbollah alone"

That is exactly where the blame should be placed.

"As for Jay, you really are filled with hate, calling people beasts. You are just about one wave short of a shipwreck if you get my drift. Do you really think a tiny Lebanese Christian baby is your enemy and that it is just to kill them? If you prick an Arab do they not bleed? if you bomb them do they not get blown to bits?"

Your moral relativism is weaker than your IQ. Don't even address me again, your too stupid to think.

btw, you didn't even read the entire post otherwise you would have noticed I was quoting someone else.

Get a job.

Jay, a bit touchy today are we?

My apologies, just don't chastize someone without knowing what their positions are in the first place, or for having a different position.

Jay,
how do you see a distinction between christian and islam perversion?

Is it not terror when pilots rain bombs on civilians and the pilots are in no danger at all? Just because it is expensive military equipment does not make it more moral than a terror attack by people who do not have the benefit of tanks, F16, cluster bombs,etc.

Would you agree that the muslim population of the ME might have some legitimate grievances? That the US and Israel might be wrong also?

Do you believe that Palestinian and Lebanese are suffering and bleeding red just like anyone else?

Do they have a right of selfdefense, just like we or the Israelis?

This is nothing new. The apocalyptic Christians also embraced the nationalistic politics of the Cold War (it helped convert them from anti-big business populists to evangelists of the Gospel of Neoliberalism). For them America’s enemy is always contiguous with the legions of the beast. It used to be the Soviet Union. Before that the British Empire was working for Satan.

Some apocalyptic Christians have closely followed the Zionist movement since it began and have looked to Israel’s establishment as a sign. They are not concerned with the complex politics of the Middle East or even with Israel as a nation and certainly not Jews. Their interest is entirely mythological.

This is not a cult but an endemic and old American religion. In the 1970’s the neocons and their allies in Israel became aware of the growing political relevance of these sympathetic evangelicals and have cultivated a relationship ever since.

The Evangelical/Zionist crusaders are stuck in the 5th century B.C.

Answer just two questions Renate.

If Hamas and Hezbollah were completely disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel was completely disarmed, what would happen?

There are no longer conflicts between Jordan and Israel, why? Because Jordan has recognized Israel and established dialogue and Israel is not an aggressive state.

Jay maybe there is a connection between the secularization of an Arab nation and its relation to Israel. The more secular the less of a threat. So what do the neocons want to do. Destroy the least threatening and most secular societies like Iraq and Lebanon. Not very smart.

No Chrissy, we want to DISARM Hezbollah and Hamas as mandated by SC 1559 and would appreciate the world communities help.

Is that too much to ask?

Jay,

Hamas has no army, they do have home made weapons like the cassam rocket, which is nothing to speak of, that is why pathetic young people strap bombs around their waste.
Hezbollah is better equipt but does not come close to what Israel has. You can see that by the number of civilian casualties, and the Israelis say they try to avoid civilian killings. That is how powerful their weapons are.
What happens to a defenseless people you see by the brutal occupation over the course of 40 years in Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes disarming the whole region would certainly give time to cool off. We can dream, the funds would be used to build and not to destroy, maybe the settlements could also be removed while we are at it.

And now Jay, please answer my other questions.

I would like to add: If and when it comes to a disarmmement in the region it will take many generations before the hate can be overcome, lots and lots of patiients by all involved.

Hagee is one scary mother. Scarier still is if he has the President's ear. Coincidentally, I saw a bit of Hagee on the TV the other day and he was especially offensive referring to the evil environmentalists and how they are responsible for the US continued dependence on foreign oil and they are the reason Hagee's church couldn't acquire a valuable lot of land next door to his MegaChurch. ( I kid you not). I wonder what Bible he's reading?

"This is nothing new. The apocalyptic Christians also embraced the nationalistic politics of the Cold War (it helped convert them from anti-big business populists to evangelists of the Gospel of Neoliberalism). For them America’s enemy is always contiguous with the legions of the beast. It used to be the Soviet Union. Before that the British Empire was working for Satan."

The unfortunately new aspect of this distinctly American relious extremism is we have a current administration that supports them and their cause. Supporting and endorsing the bloodshed from the safety of another country is as bad as participating in it, christian or not.
Extremism is winning the game, either American, Isreali, Muslim, or Christia-whatever; the loudest most violent voices are the ones being heard.

Back to Hagee for a second. This bit from the article nicely explains why right wing white christians never quite appeal to religious blacks:

"Mr. Hagee also upset black leaders. To help students seeking odd jobs, his church newsletter, The Cluster, advertised a "slave" sale. "Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone," it said. "Make plans to come and go home with a slave." Mr. Hagee apologized but, in a radio interview, protested about pressure to be "politically correct" and joked that perhaps his pet dog should be called a "canine American."

Yes, not joking about slavery is being "politically correct".

"What happens to a defenseless people you see by the brutal occupation over the course of 40 years in Gaza and the West Bank."

This is where you and I disagree. I believe that the palestinians are the illegal occupiers.

"Yes disarming the whole region would certainly give time to cool off"

That wasn't my question. If Hamas and Hezbollah we're disarmed and Israel was not. What would happen?

Your moral relativism is not working on me.

I don't think that the Israelis care about the Christian Zionists' belief in Armegeddon. Support is support and they will take it where they can get it. It's not like they believe in the Rapture and fear it.

Justin nailed it. IMHO many American and European leftists do not support Israel. Many on the left see moral equivalence or even view Israel as the bad guy in this drama. Why? Perhaps because Israel is more powerful. Perhaps because leftists tend to support noon-westerners over westerners. Perhaps it's related to anti-Americanism or even anti-semitism.

Anyhow, American liberals are happy to demonize a group that gives unqualified support Israel, particularly since the "Christian right" is their current favorite whipping boy. It lets liberals to feel morally superior. They can, and do, say: yes the Christian right supports Israel strongly, but for bad reasons.

I think there is one aspect of this many people don't quite understand-- most Jews do not necessarily support Israel or the existence of a Jewish homeland because of some prophecied belief from the Bible. Most Israelis are actually secular Jews. The battle over Israel is exactly what it appears-- a historical battle over land, who owns it, who has a right to it.

Personally, speaking as Jew, I think Israel has made many, many mistakes and has hurt its own credibility, not to mention hurt the reputation of Jews worldwide as a people who are supposed to be committed to law, rationality, as well as critical thinking. As a people our history has been about repeated persecution and surivival. But, sadly, we have become the persecuters who have turned our back on rational thought. Too many people have died for this land-- but too many seem to forget that it is only land. Life is more important than territory, no matter its history or significance.

As for the actual thread topic, I do not trust Evangelical Christian zionism in the least. (Well, I don't really trust any serious zionists.) But their support is based on their beliefs that Jews need to be in Israel for the Apocalypse to happen-- so we can all die. Not exactly an admirable motivation. Although I suppose it sure beats them trying to convert us all the time.

By the way, PLEASE ignore watcher, there is no point in addressing him/her-- what is the point of getting into a discussion with someone whose head is full of lies? Just yesterday watcher referred to Jews as "mongrels" and "Nazis." He/she is sick puppy and hopefully is in a nice, isolated place and has little contact or influence with the outside world.

The best way for a Jew to follow the Torah is to become a Christian

i'd rather be in hell with my bubbe and zeyde and paul wellstone than in heaven with the likes of you and strom thurmond. if jesus prefers you, then he's an idiot.

ex-liberal,

Perhaps Israel has overreacted. Did you ever think of that?

And the Armaggedonists are scary. Do you deny that?

Or would you rather play slippery with your terms, exagerating the liberal position to create a straw man easily defeated?

American Liberals are not anti-semite because they do not support isreali agression.
And American liberals are not anti-american because they do not support GW bush and co.
American Leiberals see the christian right as moral hypocrites, waving the flag and holding the bible on one hand talking about "the culture of life", and supoorting the death penalty and endorsing the killing of civilian non-christians on the other.
Christ would not support the death penalty, period (nor abortion for that matter). Nor would he endorse isreali agression or hezzbolah agression. He would be working towards peace, the christian zionists are not.

Wow, "ex-liberal," nice collection of straw men.

Here's a hint, you dishonest hack: Concern over Israel's overraction != a lack of support. And it's hardly "moral equivalence" to condemn indiscriminate killings of civilians by both sides; it's moral equivalence to give Israel a free pass for its indiscriminate killing of civilians and other noncombatants. Once again you prove how valueless your opinion is.

Jay, you said if Israel was completly disarmed, what would happen?
Hamas and Hezbollah have no army now. Israel has and we see what Israel does.
Once more Israel invade Lebanon and occupied Lebanon for almost 20 years.
Israel has occupied Gaza and the WB and still does for 40 years.

Israel is killing Palestinians on a daily base, has and still does confiscate land building settlements agains international law. has ignored every single UN RESOLUTION, did not stop building more settlements as agreed to in the Oslo agreements. we could go on and on. Look at the distraction in Gaza, the check points and and and.
The Israelis in Haifa are quite comfortable as you can see even on Fox News. I don't speak of moral relativism I speak of morals simlpy morals, just humane treatment of the Palestinians, the Lebanese
people. They are just people like you and me.

Looking at both sides is not relativism.

IMHO many American and European leftists do not support Israel.

I don't support bad action, no matter who the actor is.

Some of us have advanced beyond simple tribalism and unconditional support or opposition based on "sides" without regard to morality or consequence.

Many on the left see moral equivalence or even view Israel as the bad guy in this drama.

Many on the right have a problem of not realizing that the options in a conflict are not limited to:

1) The two sides are equivalent, or
2) One side is "good" and should be supported in all it does while one side is "bad" and should be opposed in all it does.

Anyhow, American liberals are happy to demonize a group that gives unqualified support Israel,

Any group that gives unqualified support to any institution without reference to the content of its actions is, at best, amoral.

Leftists should utilize Haggee's Hate to confront the politically engaged evangelicals. Haggee provides the blood red paint needed to color the hateful followers of the anti-Christ, who would use the Prince of Peace to foment war.