Ah Tony Blair has finally lost it. Congrats Tony, you're welcome to the Jimmy Carter Appeasers Society!

..the prime minister admitted "we are far from persuading those we need to persuade" that western values were even-handed, fair and just in their application..

Yo Blair. Those who we need to persude are not morons. You cannot persuade them that which is blatantly false..

"we must commit ourselves to a complete renaissance of our strategy to defeat those that threaten us"

Take note wingnuts. We'd be all for bombing the Arabs back the middle-ages (which is where the Islamo-Fascist Conspiracy aims to take us) if it sounded sweet like this. Learn to roll your r's and I'll follow you anywhere.

LOL, enozinho, but we already rejected John F-in Kerry!

Blair is much worse for the world than GWB could ever be. His sweet talking is false cowboy bravado wrapped in texas horseshit borrowed from Bush.

Good for you, then, he's not running again, gregor. I was shocked to find out this trip is the first ever by a sitting British Prime Minister to the West Coast.

The term "Renaissance" is the French translation for the Italian word rinascita, used by French historian Jules Michelet, and expanded upon by Swiss historian Jacob Burckhardt (both in the 1860s). Rebirth is used in two ways. First, it means rediscovery of ancient classical texts and learning and their applications in the arts and sciences. Second, it means that the results of these intellectual activities created a revitalization of European culture in general. Thus it is possible to speak of the historical Renaissance in two different but meaningful ways: A rebirth of classical learning and knowledge through the rediscovery of ancient texts, and therefore supposedly a rebirth of European culture in general.

Tony Blair....Heart Attack?,Plane Crash?,Suicide?,Death by Small Boat?...............................................................Two CIA(FBI,MI5,MI6,ect.) meet and are talking about colleagues. One says"Did you hear Joe Blow died" Other says "Small plane crash or heart attack?".

What are you talking about, R.L.?

On May 14, 2006, the Independent on Sunday reported that Blair had privately assured ministers that he would step down in the summer of 2007. It is widely predicted that he will be succeeded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown. What do you think of Brown, gregor?

The unpopularity in the UK of Blair's foreign policies and the embarassment of the "Yo, Blair!" conversation is finally prising GW's coattails out of Tony's hands.

The Foreign Secretary and Foreign Office particualrly, plus significant number of Labour MPs, wanted Blair to convey to GW last Friday the need for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon. The British Army is overcommitted, deaths are becoming more frequent. The electorate was never for the Iraq war and only gave grudging support immediately following the invasion.

The revolt is reaching a level where politics are returning to greater cabinet reponsibility and less presidential-style leadership.

Wonder if this presages something similar here leading up to the election, and after, also, if the Repugs take a walloping -- especially if Iraq and Afghanistan continue deteriorating and who knows what with Lebanon and Palestine.

Of course, Blair can make a soundbite all he likes, but the UK can't change a thing. Unless he moves Bush over there's no change. And the whole Islamic world will be looking for actions not words.

I wonder if he saw this as his own "an iron curtain has descended" moment?

Nobody is suggesting that force is the only solution. The republicans only seem violent compared to the democrat party, which cries over dead terrorists. It's just that the military prong of our strategy gets the most media attention....

The republicans only seem violent compared to the democrat party, which cries over dead terrorists.

Good point American Hawk. If the liberals had their way, America would be waiving the white flag of surrender and Sharia would be the law of the law in this country.

Speech text here.

Bush quote, "Blair needs to stop this shit."

President Bush; "Syria Needs To Stop This Shit"

Nobody is going to cry over the deaths of terrorists except their mothers.

The problem is that this administration can't distinguish between terrorists and innocent bystanders and treats all the same. Never mind the additional "collateral damage" of elderly, women and children.

Blair's speech is about him finally catching on to the negative effects of his and US policy.

You chicken hawks are so nervous you start shooting in all directions. Maybe not so much white flag as white feather.

Here's the L.A. Times account:

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking in Los Angeles on the final leg of a U.S. visit, called Tuesday for a broad reappraisal of the West's strategy for fighting extremism in the Middle East, saying that the battle would not be won by force alone.

Blair, whose speech came on a day of intensifying violence between Israeli troops and Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon, said he still held out hope for a quick end to nearly three weeks of conflict there. But he said when that occurs, Western nations must commit to building an "alliance of moderation" to counter the religious and political extremism he said was growing across the Middle East.

Sharia would be the law of the law in this country.

Does anyone else notice that the "Al" program seems to do these hiccups at the beginning of the month sometimes?

And at the very end:

Finally, offering what he described as a bit of unsolicited, if friendly, advice, the prime minister urged the U.S. government to take the lead on such issues as global climate change, poverty in Africa and world trade talks.

"Without America," he said, "it doesn't happen."

3 Steps to A Renaissance

Step 1: arrest Bush
Step 2: arrest Blair
Step 3: off to the Hague!

Billmon weighs in on the same speech:

Great. Lebanon is in flames, the Iraqis are playing Name That Death Squad, the neocons want to renact Hiroshima in Iran, the Turks are talking about settling scores with the Kurds, the Taliban are cultivating their Pashtun gardens, and Bush's butler is giving us existentialist psychobabble.

I think he may be even more deranged than his master. The other day Blair said something to the effect that he was absolutely confident -- way down in that "irreducible core" of his -- that his Middle East policies are correct. It was the sort of thing Shrub might say if he knew what the word "irreducible" means.

I remember thinking: Anyone who has even a smidgeon of knowledge about, or experience in, the Middle East, and who says he is absolutely, 100% certain he has the right answers, is either a liar, a fanatic, or Tom Friedman -- which is to say, a world-class educated fool.

Well, Britain's nixing of an EU call for a peacefire yesterday (along with Germany and the Czech Republic) belies any notion that Tony has had a change of heart.

"If the liberals had their way, America would be waiving the white flag of surrender and Sharia would be the law of the law in this country."

You know, Al, this one spectacularly stupid statement sums up every cunt-faced thing you've said in this space over the last however long you've been doing it. Yes, all of your opponents can easily be lumped together for you to hate and fear from the safety of your mother's basement, you fat, worthless piece of shit! How convenient, now pass the remote control.

Why don't you go out, put on a uniform and fight all the horrible enemies of the United States -- all the feminazis and commies and gays and Muslims and libruls and whatever? Well, because you're a cowardly illiterate who can barely string two thoughts together, certainly not without pornographic glee at the suffering of others -- all of whom somehow deserve to die (snicker), except for unborn fetuses, of course.

Face it: you have nothing positive to contribute anywhere, and your intelligence is limited to what it takes to fry ants under a magnifying glass. So why don't you and American Chickenshit and all the other Bushlickers just go form a circle jerk somewhere else? Some grownups are trying to cope with the tragic problems your heroes have unleashed on our world.

Unlike you, we actually care about the legacies our children are left with.

...a world-class educated fool.

Posted by: bad Jim on August 2, 2006 at 3:48 AM | PERMALINK

Delusional would cover it. It's like "I have looked into his eyes..." They're both wrong. In their irreducible cores they must know they were very, very wrong, but they'll both be damned before they admit it. Although this speech somewhat begs the question.

The difference is that Blair is fighting to hang on to political power by his fingernails, and has come to the realization that he has to compromise his "bold leadership" in order to do so. Who knows why he wants to hang on, or what he thinks he can achieve in the next months. Nature of the beast, I suppose; he can't let go.

"Blair's speech is about him finally catching on to the negative effects of his and US policy."

Unlikely. Someone as self satisfied and self righteous as blair isn't unlikely to change his views now.

No, As notthere says, this is just blair being brought into line by the labour party. He is now so weak politically that he is currently finding out what his government's foreign policy is only when the cabinet get around to telling him.

Blair, at this point, is little more than a stuffed dummy reading out whatever lines he's given by brown. A truly honourable man would have resigned by now but blair has no honour (or self respect apparently).

Since the number of Jews who have addressed the questions raised by this article is few, and the number of Jews who have considered it seriously, is zero, and the number of Jews who have ignored it is almost all, and it is so relevant to what is going on in Gaza and Lebanon, I feel it needs to be posted again:

WHY DOESN'T THE MEDIA PUBLISH THIS? I wonder indeed.

Israel Fakes a Provocation (the "kidnapping" of Cpl Gilad Shalit)

The following passages in italics are from:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/26/wmid26.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/26/ixnews.html

Last night two Israeli soldiers were killed and another kidnapped in a dawn attack by Palestinian militants who tunnelled under Gazas heavily protected border.

The attackers, believed to number seven or eight, surprised Israeli forces when they appeared at first light through a tunnel on open ground 300 yards inside Israel near a kibbutz.

Gaza is built on old semi-consolidated sand dunes. It is extremely unlikely that anyone could tunnel 500, or more, yards in the sandy ground of Gaza (300 yards into Israel plus 200 yards of no-mans land plus more to the tunnel entrance), without the tunnel collapsing at some point.

They split into three groups before launching simultaneous attacks on three Israeli defensive positions - a look-out tower, plus a tank and an armoured personnel carrier, both dug in, facing Gaza.

If you were only seven or eight, would you split into three groups? If you were only two, or three, would you attack a tank over flat ground, manned by four soldiers waiting inside to kill you?

They blew open the tanks rear doors with a missile fired from point-blank range before tossing grenades inside. Two of the tank crew died and another was severely wounded but the final crew member, the gunner, was forced out of the wreckage at gunpoint.

The rear doors are blown off and a few grenades popped inside. Tanks are not made to fall apart. Blowing off the rear doors would have taken a blast sufficient to seriously hurt those inside. The grenades would have then made mincemeat of them. One wonders if it is standard practice to wear a bulletproof vest inside a hot tank. One would think that the tank would be bulletproof enough not to require such a vest. Can Israeli tanks stop bullets, or not?

Later reports, from the New York Times and Guardian, tell use that Shalit suffered only minor injuries to his abdomen and one arm, even though everyone else in the tank was severely wounded or killed. Shalit would have been less than three feet away from those killed (there is no spare room in a tank).

Israeli trackers said they found his blood-stained bulletproof vest close to the Gaza perimeter fence.

The militants force Shalit to take off his bulletproof vest and leave it close to the Gaza concentration camp fence, in order to help the Israelis with their investigation.

By the way, whose blood is it on his bulletproof vest? Did his minor wounds bleed profusely, or was it the other soldiers blood and guts all over him. Pity their bulletproof vests didn't save them.

Meanwhile, two other militants attacked a nearby concrete watchtower.... The troop carrier was also damaged in another attack but it was unoccupied. The attackers then escaped back into Gaza by cutting their way through the perimeter fence.

Interestingly, the attackers escaped easily by cutting through the (electrified) perimeter fence, yet cutting through the perimeter fence in order to get in, was so hard to do, that they burrowed through half a mile of sandy ground instead. Something wrong with this story, perhaps?

After all this commotion, the soldiers in all the nearby Gaza concentration camp guard-towers, manage to miss a few Arabs running the 300 yards, over flat ground, back to the perimeter fence, miss them when they cut through it, and miss them running across no-mans land to safety. Anyway why, you may ask, did they not return through the tunnel they had painstakingly dug? Perhaps, they wanted to prove the total incompetence of the Israeli soldier.

If you believe this sad tale, I have a bridge to sell you.

The Hamas political leadership sought to distance itself from the incident last night when a spokesman said it had no knowledge of the fate of Cpl Shilat. Ghazi Hamad, a spokesman, said: "We are calling on the resistance groups, if they do have the missing soldier to protect his life and treat him well."

Yes, the Hamas political leadership had no idea of the fate of Cpl Shilat, as the story is a total fabrication.

The Jew press then claims that the Popular Resistance Committees, the armed wing of Hamas and the (previously unknown) Army of Islam were jointly responsible for the kidnapping of Shilat.

Why three groups you may ask?

The reason for three groups, is so that each of them might believe that the other has the "kidnapped" soldier, when, in fact, none of them have him. He is sipping coffee in Tel Aviv.

And why did a "previously unknown" group put up its hand?

Well, just in case one of the groups had doubts that the other group had the "kidnapped" soldier, they certainly couldn't be sure the "previously unknown" group didn't have him,... because after all, they don't have any idea who is leading, or anyone in, this unknown group.

So the reason for the weird "I did it arrangement," is so that the Jew press can claim that the Arabs claimed responsibility, when all they have done, is to NOT deny they did it.

Oh yeah, the "previously unknown" group is a Jew invention. It doesn't exist, except in the Jew newspapers.

Of course, shortly, the Army of Islam will need to be created (by the Jews) in order to negotiate the "release" of Shilat.

If you are not already convinced that the whole story is a fabrication, ask yourself; What were the four Israeli soldiers doing in the tiny confines of that dug-in tank? Ask your self; How long were they going to continue sitting in that tank? All day perhaps, or till they roasted in the desert sun? Or, till another group of four took over on the next shift? And of course, having four soldiers in just one tank, wont provide a defense, so there will have to be hundreds of tanks and hundreds of soldiers all sitting in these tanks,...

all waiting,... all waiting,... all waiting,.... for exactly what?

Waiting for Palestinian children to throw stones at them, perhaps? Perhaps, waiting attentively for militants to dig a half mile tunnel through sandy soil, pop up, and rush them over flat ground, but not attentively enough to see them approach? Perhaps, they were waiting for the Egyptian army to materialize, Star Trek like, from their bases hundreds of miles away on the other side of the Suez canal? I dont know,... you tell me why?

Yes, the story is a total fabrication. A fake provocation to start a war. Yes, the Jews are evil people.

"Blair, at this point, is little more than a stuffed dummy reading out whatever lines he's given by brown. A truly honourable man would have resigned by now but blair has no honour (or self respect apparently)."

That may be true, but he still would like to shore up his rep before flaming out. After all, he is plagued by a certain intelligence his Amerucan counterpart will never have to worry about.

By the way, Slim is a Jew.

4 Steps to A Renaissance

Step 1: arrest Bush
Step 2: arrest Blair
Step 3: off to Nuremberg!
Step 4: hang them by the neck till dead.

You mean Bush and Co. has a foreign policy??? What is it? If it isn't KILL, KILL, KILL, ETC., then I don't have any idea what it might be....

"he still would like to shore up his rep before flaming out. "

Too late for that , at least for the paying customers in the UK. The audiences abroad , who just see the highlights ,might buy it but not the punters at home.

Realistically the verdict is already on Blair - A failure.

A PM who in 97 had the political power & capital to do just about anything he wanted (take the UK into the euro for one) has ended up 9 years later having accomplished not very much at all and being widely mocked for being the most dishonest PM since Lloyd george, leading the most dishonest government in living memory.

Nothing Blair says now is worth taking seriously except as a expression of the Labour cabinets views. Personally he has almost no power left at all to do anything.

I guess he's a bit like Nixon in his wildreness years: amazed that he's still alive, wandering around aimlessly, and doing a desperate sales job on his reputation. He may only be trying to convince himself at this point, but he'll throw all his energy into that. What a waste the man's career has been, and he's not even old yet.

No drinks on the house for Tony Blair!

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Why in the hell would Liberals want Sharia Law? Think about everything the "Christian" Right want. Sounds like Sharia Law to me you fucking coward Al. Stupid motherfucker.
The "Christian" Right would be comfortable as hell in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and every other Moslem country. They hate the exact same things.

Since the mad Jews feel they can win their quest for user registration with pointless posts,...

Here is one post they can at least enjoy:

"Almadinejad has repeatedly pledged the destruction of Israel by fire,.."

Only Jew liars like you state this: Ahmadinejad actually said:

That the shitty little country should be moved to Germany, or Alaska, or somewhere out of the middle-east.

That the shitty little country should be wiped off the map (the same way Palestine was).

He also said the HolyCo$t is a fable:

This is easily shown to be the case as follows:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 4 million "victims".

This plaque was on display at Auschwitz from 1948 until about 1990 when the Soviets released certain documents found at Auschwitz.

Have a look at these photos of yet more plaque from Auschwitz:

Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims".
Plaque from Auschwitz showing 1.5 million "victims" (Deutsch).

These plaques are currently on display at Auschwitz (English and German).

Note the dramatically reduced number of victims, now only 1.5 million (anderthalb millionen).

A casual reduction in the number of deaths by some 2.5 million.

Deaths at Auschwitz drop by a whopping 2.5 million, but 6,000,000 dead Jews, remains the same.

Why did you never hear about the Jew reduction of deaths at Auschwitz. I mean a reduction from 4 million to 1.5 million is quite significant, you must agree.

If Jews can reduce the number of dead from 4 million to 1.5 million, then why do they jail people like David Irving for just questioning the numbers who died.

There are many, many more problems with the HolyCo$t fable, but one must take one small step at a time.

TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE from Blair...like many now seeing which way "the wind blows" who are trying to find some cover from their heinous decisions to provide support and encouragement to this criminal administration, Blair is searching for words to soften what history and the world will assign to him when the dust settles!!!

OMIGOD!!!

SLIM IS A SECRET JEW!

I'VE SEEN HIS FORESKIN !!!

BEFORE THE RABBI CUT IT OFF !!!

With TB it just depends on the group he is spinning his BS to. cleve

slim and sweetbarbie in their own inimitable ways make the case for registration.

it was almost worth it for the belly roar of reading our jewy-jooooOOOoo-jew-obsessed resident of many names rail against little norman rodgers yesterday...

almost...

mark me down as a proponent of registration.

(please, Kevin, please)

and charlie, have you reneged on your no more than three posts a thread promise?

"failure to address the Palestinian issue" ??

Good Lord, the mother of all red herrings.

Unlike you, we actually care about the legacies our children are left with.

Kenji, great conclusion, but I have to say that I object to your prior characterization of Al as c----faced. It is an awful term, and unkind to women in the extreme.

I enjoy Al. His biliousness is like a gulp of black coffee in the morning, the main time when I tune in here. I urge you to take him the same way. He's a fact, so he represents an extreme worth thinking about, not getting angry at.

I agree with Blair that the Al thinkers need a renaissance, something we liberals went through five hundred years ago. The Als will get ugly like they always do first, but their liberalization, or at least their children's, is inevitable, don't you think? Tony Blair seems to think so.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking in Los Angeles on the final leg of a U.S. visit, called Tuesday for a broad reappraisal of the West's strategy for fighting extremism in the Middle East, saying that the battle would not be won by force alone.

*sigh* Why does Tony Blair hate America?

Tony Blair will find that wingnuts on both sides of the Atlantic will turn on him for allowing even this small bit of reality into his rhetoric. Note, for example, the first comment on this thread. Of course, Blair is insincere and fighting for his political life (which is terminal in spite of this small apostasy). But it will not matter to the wingnuts who demand purity of faith.

The reality of long experience has shown that it only makes sense to watch what they do and not to listen to what they say.

Blair said in his speech :

It can only be won by showing that our values are stronger, better and more just, more fair than the alternative. Doing this, however, requires us to change dramatically the focus of our policy.

I believe we can safely say that this position rules out the torture and carpet bombing so often defended on these threads as the vital components of our foreign policy.

He also says that "short-term, we can't say we are winning."

What refreshing honesty from a government official.

I wonder if that will ever catch on here?

Nobody is suggesting that force is the only solution...

Fooled me. The Trotskyites you guys take your clues from have always believed that we could kill our way to heaven.

(BTW, is there any way to purge this blog of commercial and holocaust denial spam?)

Help! Somebody sew me back on! I'm too young to die!

Well, I'd take Sharia Law over non-law any day. As long as it applies to everyone in the country, rich and poor, powerful and weak, equally. Then it's a good starting point. Rule of law is more fundamental than any specific right.

If Jews can reduce the number of dead from 4 million to 1.5 million, http://www.ggpn.info/sitemap.htm then why do they jail people like David Irving for just questioning the numbers who died.

"Broad reappraisal of...strategy" assumes the existence of a strategy...hmm, I must have missed something somewhere. The only strategy the current administration has is to hold the majority in both houses of congress. EVERYTHING else is secondary.

Tony Blair will find that wingnuts on both sides of the Atlantic will turn on him for allowing even this small bit of reality into his rhetoric. Note, for example, the first comment on this thread. Of course, Blair is insincere and fighting for his political life (which is terminal in spite of this small apostasy). But it will not matter to the wingnuts who demand purity of faith.

Spot on. Glenn Greenwald has had more to say on this matter -- as these threads demonstrate, Bush Cultists who insist on asserting their own reality in contradiction of the facts are simply not interested in, or capable of, honest debate.

The reality of long experience has shown that it only makes sense to watch what they do and not to listen to what they say.

Alas, I daresay many in the Middle East have already figured this out, which is why the US has been the target of more and more radical attacks.

"Slim is a secret Jew!"

So secret he doesn't even know it.

G.W. Bush is a Jew.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a (secret) Jew.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt's mother Sarah Delano was a Jew. The Delanos are a Jewish family originally from Spain/Italy.

His father was also a Jew:

"In the distant past my ancestors may have been Jews. All I know about the origin of the Roosevelt family is that they are apparently descended form Claes Martenszen van Roosevelt, who came from Holland." The New York Times of March 14, 1935 (quoting Franklin Delano Roosevelt).

"Claes Rosenvelt entered the cloth business in New York, and was married in 1682. He accumulated a fortune. He then changed his name to Nicholas Roosevelt. Of his four sons, Isaac died young. Nicholas married Sarah Solomons. Jacobus married Catherina Hardenburg. The Roosevelts were not a fighting but a peace-loving people, devoted to trade. Isaac became a capitalist. He founded the Bank of New York in 1790." The House of Roosevelt by Paul Haber, 1936:

"This war against America is a tragedy. It is illogical and devoid of any foundation of reality. It is one of those queer twists of history that just as I was assuming power in Germany, Roosevelt, the elect of the Jews, was taking command in the United States. Without the Jews and without this lackey of theirs, things could have been quite different." Adolph Hitler

Roosevelt's wife was a distant cousin and a niece of former President Theodore Roosevelt (another secret Jew). Both Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt were descendants of Claes Rosenvelt.

Winston Churchill was a (secret) Jew.

"Cunning, no doubt, came to Churchill in the Jewish genes transmitted by his mother Lady Randolph Churchill, née Jenny Jacobson/Jerome." Moshe Kohn, Jerusalem Post, Jan. 18, 1993.

billmon disagrees with you Kevin. On balance, I'd go w/ billmon:

"The Stranger
Blair said the war in the Middle East was in part a fight between "reactionary Islam and moderate mainstream Islam" and that Western intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan had turned into "existential battles for reactionary Islam."
"We posed a threat not to their activities simply: but to their values, to the roots of their existence."

Great. Lebanon is in flames, the Iraqis are playing Name That Death Squad, the neocons want to renact Hiroshima in Iran, the Turks are talking about settling scores with the Kurds, the Taliban are cultivating their Pashtun gardens, and Bush's butler is giving us existentialist psychobabble.

I think he may be even more deranged than his master. The other day Blair said something to the effect that he was absolutely confident -- way down in that "irreducible core" of his -- that his Middle East policies are correct. It was the sort of thing Shrub might say if he knew what the word "irreducible" means.

I remember thinking: Anyone who has even a smidgeon of knowledge about, or experience in, the Middle East, and who says he is absolutely, 100% certain he has the right answers, is either a liar, a fanatic, or Tom Friedman -- which is to say, a world-class educated fool.

Blair, unfortunately, is all three.

Well, given Tony's absolute belief in his own moral and intellectual superiority, and the slaughter of the innocents currently underway in both Iraq and Lebanon, I think there's another existentialist classic Tony needs to read.

It's also about killing Arabs.

Posted by billmon at 01:49 AM"

"...when the war finally end[s]", Blair wants us to "...commit ourselves to a complete renaissance of our strategy to defeat those that threaten us"

Fucking idiot. If we're going to revamp our strategy only after the war ends, then we'd better resign ourselves to the war ending in our defeat. What a complete moron!

Lapdog Tony is finished in the UK and on the world stage as well; maybe he can become Gropinator Scwarzenegger’s massage therapist.

5 Steps to A Renaissance

Step 1: arrest Bush
Step 2: arrest Blair
Step 3: arrest slim
Step 4: off to Nuremberg!
Step 5: hang them by the neck till dead.

November 1979: Muslim extremists (Iranian variety) seized the U.S. embassy in Iran and held 52 American hostages for 444 days

1982: Muslim extremists (mostly Hezbollah) began a nearly decade-long habit of taking Americans and Europeans hostage in Lebanon, killing William Buckley and holding Terry Anderson for 6 1/2 years.

April 1983: Muslim extremists (Islamic Jihad or possibly Hezbollah) bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 16 Americans.

October 1983: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) blew up the U.S. Marine barracks at the Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines.

December 1983: Muslim extremists (al-Dawa) blew up the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing five and injuring 80.

September 1984: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) exploded a truck bomb at the U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut, killing 24 people, including two U.S. servicemen.

December 1984: Muslim extremists (probably Hezbollah) hijacked a Kuwait Airways airplane, landed in Iran and demanded the release of the 17 members of al-Dawa who had been arrested for the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing two Americans before the siege was over.

June 14, 1985: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) hijacked TWA Flight 847 out of Athens, diverting it to Beirut, taking the passengers hostage in return for the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as another 700 prisoners held by Israel. When their demands were not met, the Muslims shot U.S. Navy diver Robert Dean Stethem and dumped his body on the tarmac.

October 1985: Muslim extremists (Palestine Liberation Front backed by Libya) seized an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, killing 69-year-old American Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and then tossing his body overboard.

December 1985: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed airports in Rome and Vienna, killing 20 people, including five Americans.

April 1986: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed a discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen in West Berlin, injuring hundreds and killing two, including a U.S. soldier.

December 1988: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 on board and 11 on the ground.

February 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, possibly with involvement of friendly rival al-Qaida) set off a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center, killing six and wounding more than 1,000.

Spring 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, the Sudanese Islamic Front and at least one member of Hamas) plot to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, the U.N. complex, and the FBI's lower Manhattan headquarters.

November 1995: Muslim extremists (possibly Iranian "Party of God") explode a car bomb at U.S. military headquarters in Saudi Arabia, killing five U.S. military servicemen.

June 1996: Muslim extremists (13 Saudis and a Lebanese member of Hezbollah, probably with involvement of al-Qaida) explode a truck bomb outside the Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds.

August 1998: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) explode truck bombs at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 and injuring thousands.

October 2000: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) blow up the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 U.S. sailors.

Sept. 11, 2001: Muslim extremists (al-Qaida) hijack commercial aircraft and fly planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, killing nearly 3,000 Americans.

This is only a list of all of the chaos Islamo-fascism has directed towards Americans in the last 27 years. This list does not include the mayhem in Indonesia, Spain, England, Russia, and Israel.

So apparently diplomacy has also failed to win the hearts and minds of those who belong to the religion of peace.

There path to victory is knowing that the west does not have the stomach to sustain losses over a period of time. Time and death are nothing to these people and they know they can wait us out, return to diplomacy and begin to restock and replan. They plan for years and fight for decades whereas in the west, four years seems like eternity. We will never win at diplomacy or war unless and until we begin to understand this threat.

Re Blair's suggesting that when the war finally ends "we must commit ourselves to a complete renaissance of our strategy to defeat those that threaten us".

If you don't rethink the strategy before that, the war's not going to end.

It would be nice to have a link to the actual speech transcript.

I'm not really interested in a Kevin Drum paraphrasing of a Guardian paraphrasing of a Tony Blair speech.

I'm not really interested in a Kevin Drum paraphrasing of a Guardian paraphrasing of a Tony Blair speech.

Er, Kevin directly quoted the Guardian, he didn't paraphrase it.

Tony Blair is the perfect example of the kind of non-white/non-American males that the American conservatives like: a poodle drooling at their toes.

Jay:

I'm pretty sure your laundry list of murders by Islamic fundamentalists doesn't come close to matching the number those murdered by the American military in Iraq. You also say that diplomacy hasn't worked. So, if killing large numbers of them doesn't work, and diplomacy doesn't work, then what's the solution, asshole?

"I'm pretty sure your laundry list of murders by Islamic fundamentalists doesn't come close to matching the number those murdered by the American military in Iraq."

Please provide me with this list. I also did not even list the murders of innocent muslims at the hands of Islamo-fascists over the last 30 years. Those mass graves found in Iraq should open your eyes as well. How about the wedding party bombing in Jordan?

I am not sure what the solution is. You all seemed to be convinced beyond any doubt that our current path is all wrong and I just demonstrated that our paths for the last 27 years have failed as well. We all need to quit pointing fingers at ourselves and begin pointing our fingers at thos who really are to blame.

One thing for sure is that China, Russia and France (among some others) need to quit playing both sides of the fence and become engaged. France is scared to death of the huge Muslim population within their own country, Russia needs the sweetheart oil deals and China has been so far innoculated from the chaos (I also think the fascists are frightened by China.)

Whatever the answer is; war, diplomacy or a combination of the two, we need to collectively figure this out. Divided, we will fall.

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I always hear that Blair is George's poodle. I sort of suspect that it is the other way around. Blair is smarter and more slippery than George. I suspect that old Tony is the power behind the throne.

190 rockets hit Israel

Yes, the over-the-top Israeli response has certainly lessened the threat to Israeli citizens - a missle here and there over a period of years was a much worse situation than 190 in one day and the capture of two military targets in a non-terrorist act certainly justifies the full-fledged invasion of Lebanon (instead of waiting the kidnappers out or negotiating with them) with over 600 deaths, destruction of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, and no productive end in sight.

Yes, trading 600 deaths, including numerous Israelis, for the mere possibility of saving the lives of two soldiers (and Hizbollah has no reason not to kill them now) is a great deal for everybody.

Smooth move.

"Justified" only if you want all-out war in the Middle East so you can continue your "war presidency" and expand American military operations in the region without having to resort to lies about WMDs, nuclear weapons programs, etc, and clamp down on civil liberties at home while sowing fear into the American public to further partisan domestic interests.

I think Blair's speech is among the first really public indicators of the rush to the exits of the flaming theater of NeoCon theory.

Look for traffic jams in the doorways, singed mustaches, sooty footprints on backs and lots of smoke inhalation in the months to come. Anyone care to wager on who will be the last 3 NeoCons standing?

Kevin: "I don't know if he really means it."
Me: I don't know what, if anything, he means.

I always hear that Blair is George's poodle. I sort of suspect that it is the other way around. Blair is smarter and more slippery than George. I suspect that old Tony is the power behind the throne.

Who controls more Divisions?

Advocate for God
Yes, the over-the-top Israeli response has certainly lessened the threat to Israeli citizens - a missle here and there over a period of years was a much worse situation than 190 in one day and the capture of two military targets in a non-terrorist act certainly justifies the full-fledged invasion of Lebanon (instead of waiting the kidnappers out or negotiating with them) with over 600 deaths, destruction of Lebanon's civilian infrastructure, and no productive end in sight.

You're right, AFG. Israel should have waited until Hezbollah had even more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads, and lots more SAMs and anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc., so that way when the inevitable war came Israel would have to fight that much harder and kill that many more people and lose that many more of their own before defeating Hezbollah.

I know that George W. Bush's "foreign policy" is a dismal failure, along with everything else associated with him, but let's not focus so much on that, m'kay?

Red State Mike: You're right, AFG. Israel should have waited until Hezbollah had even more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads, and lots more SAMs and anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc., so that way when the inevitable war came Israel would have to fight that much harder and kill that many more people and lose that many more of their own before defeating Hezbollah.

And I bet they were going to get them from Saddam's "massive stockpiles of WMDs", eh?

Yet more inane speculation built on fiction to boost your point of view.

But if you really believe that, then Israel should have attacked Lebanon years ago before they built up their current cache of weapons.

And the US should attack Syria and Iran NOW before they build up all these weapons.

And we should attack N. Korea NOW before they build up all these weapons.

And Russian.

And Cuba.

And Venezuela.

And . . .

Because all of these countries might sometime in the future obtain a greater cache of weapons with which to attack the US.

Well, you've never really demonstrated much logic in your arguments.

But, hey, it's working out so well for Israel, so who cares about logic, military necessity, or reality.

So wait a minute -- these insurgents explode themselves in crowded markets and on Tel Aviv buses, insist on blaming the Jews for everything, kill random people at will based on suspicions, and the WEST is using too much force? Explain to me how this works. And also explain to me why people believe that changing what we do is going to "[win] hearts and minds in the Middle East?"

Really, Hezbollah want Jews dead. That's all. You can't talk shit over with maniacal people and get them to lay down their weapons and human shields nevermind win their hearts.

There path to victory is knowing that the west does not have the stomach...

And in those 27 years - what have the Muslim extemists won? What "victory" have they enjoyed?Not much I'd argue - though recent (Bush Administration) US backsliding on civil liberties and moral and ethical codes of conduct here and abroad would seem to me to be a victory of sorts for them. No amount of US or Israeli military hardball is going to eliminate the extremist truck bomb or suicide belt. That's the reality we must live with. The whole hearts and minds argument is to reduce the number of nutjobs willing to strap on the belt.

rickeeeeeee:

Your level of analysis is aptly indicated by the way you spell your handle. I imagine Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet after he's huffed a big lungful of helium ...

Oh geez, guys. Rdw is over in the Reality Sinks In thread, doing the Armageddon Tango all by his lonesome.

I haven't drank enough coffee yet to start responding. I suggest we all meet him over there with some rhetorical lead pipes -- whaddy'all say? :)

Bob

This debate boils down to this: Do you think the Hezbollah leadership is thinking to themselves right now, "Geez, I guess we shouldn't have kidnapped those guys." Or are they thinking, "Yeah baby, you can't touch me." Or even, "This is gonna double my income, easy."

My conclusion is that Israel is being played, just as Bush is, and Blair was. What we need is not more force, but more effective force.

Here we go again. "We shall, I trust, make it a centre of Arab civilization and prosperity...”

Gertrude Bell was an intrepid British aristocrat who spent a great deal of time traveling the Middle East in the early part of the 20th century. She created the Baghdad Museum and was the Honorary Director of Antiquities in Iraq and Oriental Secretary to the British government, among other accomplishments. She was involved in the colonial management of Britain’s Middle East possessions after WWI and was instrumental in the carving up of the Ottoman Empire. The carving was overseen by Winston Churchill who as Colonial Secretary to the Lloyd George government organized the famous Cairo Conference that created Iraq and most of the other states in that part of the world. She was buried in the British cemetery in Baghdad in 1926.

In 1917 she wrote to her father from Mesopotamia:
“That’s the end of the German dream of domination in the Near East- Berlin- Baghdad and all the rest. Their place is not going to be in the sun; it would have been if they had left well alone and not tired to force the pace by war. We had, in my opinion, for all practical purposes resigned this country to them and they knew it well enough. Now they’re out of it forever I hope, and they have no one but themselves to thank. We shall, I trust, make it a centre of Arab civilization and prosperity...”

So Mr. Blair thinks he will succeed where Mr. Churchill failed? When will these people realize they are the problem. When will they realize that other people do not want to assimilate into their version of civilization?

rickeeeee: Really, Hezbollah want Jews dead. That's all. You can't talk shit over with maniacal people and get them to lay down their weapons and human shields nevermind win their hearts.

Really, Israelis want Arabs dead and to steal their lands. That's all. You can't talk shit over with people who believe they are "God's chosen people" who can steal anything they want and murder anybody they want with God's blessing.

OT: The National Weather Service posted heat advisories and warnings from Maine to Oklahoma. Triple-digit temperatures were forecast Wednesday along the East Coast as far north as parts of Maine and New Hampshire.

Anti-global warming crows coming home to roost for the GOP.

Think how the voters are going to feel in November with record highs throughout the summer and fall devastating the quality of life in America while the GOP continues to lie about and deny global warming and defend extortion-like gasoline prices.

Yummy.

Bush: 40% approval or less still; 12-13 points below Clinton's lowest second term approval rating.

Bush = an immoral Jimmy Carter.

I LOVE IT!

The sad truth is, that what Jay and Red State Mike want is to satisfy their racist blood-lust by killing as many Arabs as possible.

The sad truth is, that in this they are responding exactly the way Osama Bin Laden would want them to respond.

The sad truth is, that Jay and Red State Mike are Bin Laden's puppets.

Just like Bush.

Red State Mike: Israel should have waited until Hezbollah had even more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads, and lots more SAMs and anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc

And, of course, that is not why Israel attacked Lebanon - they attacked because two soldiers were kidnapped.

So, put your strawman back in the closet for another day.

Is anyone else starting to feel really depressed about the state of the world in general? It just seems like things are going to get worse long before they get better.

AFG
And I bet they were going to get them from Saddam's "massive stockpiles of WMDs", eh?

Uh, no. They'd get them where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran.

Yet more inane speculation built on fiction to boost your point of view.

That Hezbollah is a armed by Syria and Iran is undisputed fact.

But if you really believe that, then Israel should have attacked Lebanon years ago before they built up their current cache of weapons.

I bet they wish they had, rather than wait until Hezbollah had built up their bunkers and learned to operate those anti-ship missiles.

And, of course, that is not why Israel attacked Lebanon - they attacked because two soldiers were kidnapped.

That was the trigger. Their goals are obviously much bigger now.

Advocate for God wrote:

OT: The National Weather Service posted heat advisories and warnings from Maine to Oklahoma. Triple-digit temperatures were forecast Wednesday along the East Coast as far north as parts of Maine and New Hampshire.

Anti-global warming crows coming home to roost for the GOP.

Think how the voters are going to feel in November with record highs throughout the summer and fall devastating the quality of life in America while the GOP continues to lie about and deny global warming and defend extortion-like gasoline prices.

Also, 60 percent of the USA is experiencing drought conditions, and the American west is experiencing massive wildfires.

Think how the voters are going to feel in 2008 by which time it will be evident to everyone that:

1. Frequent, prolonged, extreme and intense heat waves with triple-digit temperatures are becoming the norm for most of the USA, and will occur every summer from now on, lasting not days, but weeks at a time; and within our lifetimes, many formerly temperate parts of the USA will have summers in which the temperature does not drop below 100 degrees for three months.

2. Mega-droughts over most of the USA are occurring and will occur every year from now on, leading inevitably to the complete and permanent collapse of American agriculture, leading inevitably to permanent food shortages.

3. Vast areas of the American west will be ravaged by unstoppable, heat & drought driven firestorms.

4. Because of decades of failure to address global warming, as a result of the fossil fuel industry's death grip on the American government, it is too late now for anything we do to avoid these outcomes, or reverse them, on time scales of less than a century.

enozinho wrote: It just seems like things are going to get worse long before they get better.

The sad truth is, things are not going to get better.

The sad truth is, things are not going to get better.

So, who's to blame? I'll be 29 on Saturday. My wife and I are talking about having kids, but how are we supposed to bring a child up in this place? I really want to punch someone in the face. So, who's it going to be?

Israel attacked Hezbollah because two soldiers were kidnapped and eight more people were killed, which came immediately after Hezbollah landed dozens of rockets in every town in northern Israel, including direct hits on the Israeli military command center for the northern sector.

But most of that seems to get left out of US news reports, as if in some intentional effort to make the Israeli response seem excessive.

Red State Mike: Uh, no. They'd get them where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran.

Sure. Because that's where the Bush administration says they get them. The same administration that said that Iraq had "massive stockpiles of WMDs" and links to 9/11.

LOL.

That Hezbollah is a armed by Syria and Iran is undisputed fact.

So was the claim that Iraq had "massive stockpiles of WMDs" - at least according to you and fellow conservatives.

I bet they wish they had, rather than wait until Hezbollah had built up their bunkers and learned to operate those anti-ship missiles.

Which they weren't using until Israel attacked them.

Hmmmmmmmm.

That was the trigger.

They've had plenty of other triggers that were even more egregious.

So, your claim is a crock, unsurprisingly.

The trigger was Bush's need to push Syria and Iraq into a regional war before the November elections.

Their goals are obviously much bigger now.

Yes, conservatives and the Israelis always like moving the goalposts when they've made mistakes or been caught in lies.

BTW, Hezbollah's goals just became a lot bigger too.

RSM: That Hezbollah is a armed by Syria and Iran is undisputed fact.

So was the claim that Iraq had "massive stockpiles of WMDs" - at least according to you and fellow conservatives.

OK, so just where did they get their weapons?

The sad truth is, things are not going to get better.

I really want to punch someone in the face. So, who's it going to be?
Posted by: enozinho on August 2, 2006 at 1:05 PM | PERMALINK

Thanks for doing your part.

snicker-snack:

I am not "Charlie" but nonetheless, I only posted three times above.

AOG:

You didn't buy Cheney's "last throes" argument either, did you?

enozinho:

Assault and battery are crimes. Perhaps continued birth control would be better for you two?

Red State Mike: OK, so just where did they get their weapons?

Who cares.

The only evidence you have to support your assertions is the unfounded assertions of a mendacious Bush administration that has repeatedly lied about conditions and circumstances in the region.

Yet you state it as fact, as if you personally investigated or reviewed actual evidence (as opposed to merely reading the White House's press releases).

Your willingness to make unsubstantiated claims for solely partisan reasons is the issue, not where Hezbollah actually got their weapons.

Osama: Touché. Am I using that word correctly?

I feared the Comments section of this blog might turn into a newer version of the NewsMax Forum, and it looks like I was right. What was once a fun place to bandy about political opinions has turned into a cesspool of anti-Semitic hate speech from watcher/slim/pal/whatever, Asian pictograms and sophomoric posts about weather, sex and advertising. Soon, people will start trying to find out other people's home or work addresses, to try to get them in trouble for what they post here. Maybe even some death threats. Same thing occurred at NewsMax's website a few years back. They had to shut it down.

Anonymity is a dangerous thing. I have always used my real name, under the supposition that would tend to suppress my more base instincts. Most people don't and look where that leads.

Time to take a vacation from this forum for a while.....

Stephen Kriz: Anonymity is a dangerous thing.

So is freedom.

AFG
Who cares.

Your willingness to make unsubstantiated claims for solely partisan reasons is the issue, not where Hezbollah actually got their weapons.

Your explicit desire to avoid finding who Hezbollah is fronting for solely partisan reasons is the issue. Why do you willfully choose to remain ignorant? They use Iranian missiles and Iranian weapons...but you think they bought them from Walmart. Duh. Pull your head out of the hole and smell the cordite.

Stephen
Anonymity is a dangerous thing. I have always used my real name, under the supposition that would tend to suppress my more base instincts. Most people don't and look where that leads.

You are right in that loss of anonymity tends to suppress things. But that is overall a negative.

Red State Mike: Your explicit desire to avoid finding who Hezbollah is fronting for solely partisan reasons is the issue.

I'm avoiding nothing, since neither you nor I can find this out or when found out do anything about it, nor does anyone expect us to.

They use Iranian missiles and Iranian weapons . . .

So, you've personally examined the missles being launched by Hezbollah (a remarkable feat given that the missles are exploding) and you are an arms expert capable of discerning (again, personally) that a particular missle came from Iran.

Congrats. You've just crossed over into the twilight zone.

You can't even admit that your only source for these claims is White House (and Pentagon, here the same things) press releases and the equally mendacious Israeli government.

How sad.

Pull your head out of the hole and smell the cordite.

Pull your head out of Bush's ass and smell some reality.

"I'm pretty sure your laundry list of murders by Islamic fundamentalists"

Well, the problem is that his laundry list includes incidents *not* instigated by Islamic fundamentalist - neither the PFLP nor Qadaffi are , but left-wing(ish) Arab nationalists.

Being unable to distinguish between those inspired by Gamal Nasser and those inspired by Sayyid Qutb is a bit of a problem, seeing as one imprisoned and executed the other.

Here's a Google translation of a page from a Lebanese magazine about the incident at Qana,

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp%3FDoccode%3D994%26Cat%3D2&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcana%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG%26domains%3Dwww.libanoscopie.com%253Blibanoscopie.com%26sitesearch%3Dwww.libanoscopie.com

Here's the original page in French,

http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp?Doccode=994&Cat=2

The gist of it is Hezbollah planted a rocket launcher on top of the building, then filled it with crippled children to cause an incident.

AFG
So, you've personally examined the missles being launched by Hezbollah (a remarkable feat given that the missles are exploding) and you are an arms expert capable of discerning (again, personally) that a particular missle came from Iran.

Congrats. You've just crossed over into the twilight zone.

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD WHO THINK IRAN AND SYRIA ISN'T SUPPLYING HEZBOLLAH WITH THEIR WEAPONS?

Just curious to see if an AFG-thing, or a liberal-thing.

Blair is a member of those who threaten us. A commitment to defeat Blair and Bush and Western capitalism/imperialism is what is required.

Being unable to distinguish between those inspired by Gamal Nasser and those inspired by Sayyid Qutb is a bit of a problem

Has anyone ever actually read Sayyid Qutb? From Wikipedia:

"While in prison, Qutb wrote his two most important works: a commentary of the Qur'an Fi zilal al-Qur'an (In the Shade of the Qur'an), and a manifesto of political Islam called Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq (Milestones)."

I'm not defending the guy's ideas, but doesn't context matter at all? He wrote these books on toilet paper. He was hung for his words. What is Michael Ledeen's excuse.

rsm,

There are a lot of people who've wandered in from the same planet as the fellow who absolutely insisted airports, fuel, trucks, roads, bridges and geography couldn't possibly have any military significance.

Red State Mike: IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD WHO THINKM [sic] IRAN AND SYRIA ISN'T SUPPLYING HEZBOLLAH WITH THEIR WEAPONS?

So, now it's an opinion thing ("think[s]") instead of a factual thing.

Well, at least you are coming around by admitting, implicitly, you have no actual proof, but are merely speculating about the source and relying on administration and Israeli claims.

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD WHO THINK IRAN AND SYRIA ISN'T SUPPLYING HEZBOLLAH WITH THEIR WEAPONS?

Heh...crickets

cld: There are a lot of people who've wandered in from the same planet as the fellow who absolutely insisted airports, fuel, trucks, roads, bridges and geography couldn't possibly have any military significance.

Those not in control of the enemy don't have any military significance.

BTW, does a "milk truck" have military significance or is it only certain trucks?

How about fuel for cigarette lighters and autos (not diesel, but regular fuel) or home heating fuel?

Foot bridges?

And exactly how do you attack and destroy "geography"?

Perhaps you could be a little more specific or is a militarily significant target simply defined as just anything, anywhere, under any circumstances that the Israeli military destroys by either design or accident?

Red State Mike: Heh...crickets

Hey . . . another conservative moving the goal posts when caught exaggerating or citing speculation as fact.

Does anyone believe Blair is his own man?

He is bought, paid for, and past his use date.

BRAVEHEART - the crucifiction - coming to a theater near you.... it worked so well the last time.

Advocate,

Geography is everything in military activity. The whole area of Lebanon isn't half the size of the Battle of the Bulge.

As citizens of Lebanon Hezbollah has the whole infrastructure of Lebanon at their disposal unless Beirut tries to fight with them over it.

Trucks heading into a war zone have a notable and, to most, fairly obvious utility.

Fuel powers trucks. Fuel can blow up.

AFG
cld: There are a lot of people who've wandered in from the same planet as the fellow who absolutely insisted airports, fuel, trucks, roads, bridges and geography couldn't possibly have any military significance.

Those not in control of the enemy don't have any military significance.

Damn, cld. You were right. Although I disagree with the "lot of people..." statement. AFG is unique.

Red State Mike and Advocate for God:

For the record, I've read a NYT piece last week that followed around
Israeli troops clearing away rocket debris. Some of the writing on
some of the rocket pieces was indeed in Persian -- so, although I
can't say for certain of course (who can, who isn't there?), I think
it's reasonable to assume that some of the Katuyskas fired by
Hezbollah were supplied by Iran.

OTOH, there has been no solid confirmation that the guided weapon that
took out the Israeli gunboat was indeed an Iran-modified Silkworm --
info again from a NYT article.

Good supposition, but less solid than the one about some of the
Katyuskas ...

Bob

Trucks heading into a war zone have a notable and, to most, fairly obvious utility.

So do ambulances. Suppose we should blow those up, as well.

And little children -- children can grow up to be soldiers, so they have a fairly obvious military utility.

There are a lot of people who've wandered in from the same planet as the fellow who absolutely insisted airports, fuel, trucks, roads, bridges and geography couldn't possibly have any military significance.

And then there are lots of people as dishonest as cld, who falsely claims anyone "absolutely insisted airports, fuel, trucks, roads, bridges and geography couldn't possibly have any military significance," despite his/her/its, ah, error being point out to him/her/ it on numerous occasions.

Of course, the notion that just about any civilian target can be defined as having "military significance" does not make any particular airport, fuel depot, truck, road, or bridge a military, not a civilian target.

Give it up, cld. After Qana, it's time to stop pretending the Israelis are doing anything like performing surgical strikes, or are avoiding civilian targets. How embarrassing for you that Israel's own actions keep proving you wrong.

As citizens of Lebanon Hezbollah has the whole infrastructure of Lebanon at their disposal unless Beirut tries to fight with them over it.
Trucks heading into a war zone have a notable and, to most, fairly obvious utility. Fuel powers trucks. Fuel can blow up.

By this logic, of course, Hezbollah is justified in striking at every truck, car and fuel depot in Israel, since they all have fairly obvious military utility. Indeed, since the IDF has the whole infrastructure of Israel at its disposal then Hezbollah is justified at firing its missiles at pretty much every road, building or installation in Israel, given their military utility.

That's, of course, if you endorse this logic. If you want to rule some targets out of bounds you have to be willing to apply that across the board.

cld: Trucks heading into a war zone have a notable and, to most, fairly obvious utility.

Yeah, ambulance trucks would never venture into a war zone, nor would trucks carrying medical supplies and food for civilians caught in those war zones.

I'm sure you could also come up with some great justifications for Israeli concentration camps for Muslims.

Fuel powers trucks.

Even home heating fuel?

LOL.

Geography is everything in military activity.

Which was not the issue.

It's destruction was.

Pray, tell us how you destroy geography, like you would destroy a truck.

BTW, "Katuyska" sounds Russian, not Persian, so even assuming Iran shipped to Hezbollah, where did Iran get the weapons they are supposedly giving to Hezbollah? From our good allies the Russians? And nobody in Russian of course would ship Persian-labeled rockets to Hezbollah, even assuming the claim about "Persian-labeling" is true?

I also point out, Bob, that the info about "Persian writing" comes from the Israeli military (which has as much reason to lie about their origin as the Bush administration does), not exactly a source of accurate or credible information.

When you can find an independent source that can confirm the origin of these missles, let me know.

Until then, it's all speculation based on the statements of two governments with reason to lie and a history of doing so.

RSM: AFG is unique.

Pretty rich from someone who claimed as fact that the missles came from Iran and Syria (do they speak Persian in Syria, RSM?), but who couldn't back it up with any independent evidence when called on it and then switched from claimed as fact to an admission that it is simply belief.

Unfortunately, your mendacity, circumlocution, and dissembling isn't unique: it is something practiced by the vast majority of conservative lemmings.

Red State Mike wrote: Why do you willfully choose to remain ignorant?

Coming from you, that is the most hilarious comment I've ever read on this site.

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD WHO THINKM [sic] IRAN AND SYRIA ISN'T SUPPLYING HEZBOLLAH WITH THEIR WEAPONS?

Well, we know that Reagan ran a fairly brisk side business in supplying Iran with missiles back in the 1980s. So perhaps Hezbollah's rockets are actually courtesy of the Republican Party....

AfG:

"Katyuska" is a generic name for a type of rocket developed by the Russians that's been around since WW2. If AK-47s can be manufactured in various developing countries, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that an old (but doubtless modified) rocket design is manufactured elsewhere, as well.

As for trusting the Israeli military, I don't need to in this instance.

I trust the NYT reporter, who doubtless has enough familiarity with Persian script to make that judgment.

As to whether the NYT is bought off or has an agenda -- well, that could be true, as well. In fact, you could be a figment of my imagination, AfG, if we really want to walk down the radical skepticism route :)

So, in lieu of other evidence, I make a provisional judgment based on the overall credibility of the NYT.

Without such provisional judgments, I'd never entitle myself to an opinion on anything I didn't experience firsthand, obviously.

Bob

So, even if the Israeli claim of "persian writing" on missle fragments were true and the meaning of that was indisputable proof that Hezbollah got them directly from Iran (instead of from some third party that purchased them from Iran for other purposes or even to sell to groups like Hezbollah without Iran's specific knowledge or consent), where is the evidence of "syrian writing", even from an unreliable source, on missle parts to back up your claim that Syria has supplied Hezbollah with missles, RSM?

Once again, we see that you uncritically spout administration propaganda like a good little lemming and demonstrate absolutely no independent thought or demand for independent evidence.

Here's hoping you get charged with a crime you didn't commit and get convicted and sentenced using the same type of speculative evidence and hearsay that the Bush administration is relying on to charge, convict, and destroy both countries and individuals.

"Innocent" men who promote the destruction of other innocent men by ignoring the rule of law and the need for evidence of guilt are not innocent men and deserve nothing less than the fate of those they have wrongly accused and incarcerated or executed.

The same can be said of "innocent" countries that place themselves above the law while demanding compliance from all others.

Hizbollah has launched 215 rockets into Israel today. Would this not be considered a disproportionate response? How many Israeli civilians have been killed? Do those deaths count amongst the intellectually dishonest crowd?

The Katyusha rocket is manufactured using Iranian technology.

Jay:

I'd say what it is is a good sign that the overall Israeli military strategy isn't working.

Should've just gone for a prisoner swap when they had the chance.

Be interesting to know how many people those rockets killed and/or things they destroyed. Where's your source for that info?

Bob

OK, so they go for the prisoner swap, then what? You think Hizbollah would then become peaceful? Or would we be doing this all over again in six months?

The Hizbollah rocket attacks have been widely reported on CNN today.

Jay:

They certainly didn't become peaceful after the *last* Israeli invasion and occupation -- and that lasted 18 years.

Please explain how your moral logic doesn't lead straight to genocide.

Bob

Please explain to me how a policy of appeasement will not lead to genocide.

AfG:

Incidentally, the name "Katyuska" means "little Katie," and it comes from the Russian folk song about a young girl pining for her lost love.

Again, from the NYT last week.

Bob

AFG
where is the evidence of "syrian writing", even from an unreliable source, on missle parts to back up your claim that Syria has supplied Hezbollah with missles, RSM?

That's easy. Thanks for the softball. I never said Syria was supplying Hezbollah with missiles. Feel free to try to quote me and prove me wrong.

Heh.

IS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD WHO THINK IRAN AND SYRIA ISN'T SUPPLYING HEZBOLLAH WITH THEIR WEAPONS?

Heh...crickets are deafening.

Bob: I trust the NYT reporter, who doubtless has enough familiarity with Persian script to make that judgment.

You didn't provide a link and I see nothing in your description that states a reporter actually saw the debris and identified Persian writing on that debris.

Jayson Blair was a reporter for the NYT.

I don't know the political or ethnic background of the NYT reporter, much less that he or she is reporting something they actually saw or only heard reported by the Israelis they were supposedly following around.

Therefore, I'll suspend judgment on whether the NYT even really said what you say it said, much less it's credibility, until a link or quote can be provided, or at least a better description of what the NYT reporter actually did and saw.

There is also the possibility that the Israelis planted the materials before showing the reporter the site, even assuming the reporter actually saw the debris, something not demonstrated in your description.

All of this of course still begs the question as to where RSM got his concrete and undeniable evidence that Syria is supplying Hezbollah with missles.

Jay:

Israel was hardly under threat of genocide from those crude and ineffectual Quassam rockets (overgrown bottle rockets, really) that Hamas was firing into southern Israel prior to this.

The much more lethal and long-distance katyuskas began firing *after* the initial Israeli military response in Lebanon.

Bob

"....*last* Israeli invasion and occupation"

This is neither an invasion or occupation by Israel. That is a completely dishonest statement.

"Quassam rockets (overgrown bottle rockets, really) that Hamas was firing into southern Israel prior to this"

The strength of the rocket is hardly material. It is still a military weapon.

"...katyuskas began firing *after* the initial Israeli military response in Lebanon."

Which was preceeded by Hizbollahs unprovoked killing of Israeli soldiers.

Gregory,

You absolutely insisted that. You're absolutely stupid.

If you want to talk about Qana, talk about this article,

http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp?Doccode=994&Cat=2

That's in French, from a Lebanese magazine.

This is the Google translation,

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.libanoscopie.com/FullDoc.asp%3FDoccode%3D994%26Cat%3D2&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcana%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG%26domains%3Dwww.libanoscopie.com%253Blibanoscopie.com%26sitesearch%3Dwww.libanoscopie.com

(It would be great if someone who reads French could post a better summary).

The gist is that Hezbollah planted a rocket launcher on the rooftop, then filled the building with crippled children (because they couldn't run away) in order to cause an incident.

The long history of terrorist militias in this region using ambulances and 'hospitals' as cover is so well-documented only somebody overtly anti-semitic would fall for it.

Jay wrote: This is neither an invasion or occupation by Israel.

That's ludicrous. Israeli troops are entering Lebanon in large numbers and engaging in hostilities with Lebanese nationals. That is an invasion. If you think the invasion is justified, then that's your opinion. But to say "this is not an invasion" is ridiculous. But then, pretty much everything you have to say is ridiculous, not to mention evil.

AfG:

Check the website, bro. It was last week, and I'm not sure how long they leave articles up before they stick 'em in archive and charge you for 'em, so you might be SOL here. You might notice that I rarely, if ever, provide links. I run an old interface, and cutting and pasting is a PITA, so I use logic, inference and memory. Very few folks on our side of the political fence have much to complain about they way I debate, you may have noticed.

You can, of course, choose to believe what you like.

But "Jayson Blair was a reporter for the NYT" is really a rhetorical tactic that ought to be beneath you, AfG.

Bob

Hizbollah has launched 215 rockets into Israel today. Would this not be considered a disproportionate response?

Probably, and arguably quite unacceptably indiscriminate even if proportionate. Its quite possible for more than one side of a conflict to be acting inappropriately.

It is not necessary in a conflict for either side to be right.

This is neither an invasion or occupation by Israel.

It is both an invasion and an occupation by Israel. When you send ground troops into a foreign country against the wishes of the government, it is an invasion. When you exercise effective control of any part of the invaded country, it is occupation.

stefan, By this logic, of course, Hezbollah is justified in striking at every truck, car and fuel depot in Israel, since they all have fairly obvious military utility.

Which is just what has been happening these past eighty years.

And, most particularly it is what has been happening with the katyusha rockets, which are all but untargetable.

The katyushas are the indiscriminate attack on a civilian population.

Jay:

Qassams are an *ineffectual* military weapon. While killing 6 people in 6 years is tragic (every human life has value) -- it hardly represents the kind of existential threat that would equate to "genocide" in anybody's book.

Israel is, however, massacring just oodles 'n' oodles of southern Lebanese as we speak, making scant effort to separate out the noncombatants from the "terrorists."

Much closer to a genocidal approach, I daresay.

And if you don't think Lebanon is under invasion as we speak, I'd ask you to mail me a sample of what you're smoking -- but you'd doubtless do it so sloppily that every drug-sniffing dog in the Post Office would be in full Rin Tin Tin mode :)

Bob

Jay: Hizbollah has launched 215 rockets into Israel today. Would this not be considered a disproportionate response?

Have they killed over 600 Israelis?

Have they destroyed as much infrastructure in Israel as has been destroyed in Lebanon?

Have they killed any UN employees?

Have they invaded Israel?

How many bombs has Israel dropped on Lebanon? More than 200? More than 400?

Hmmmmmm . . . nope, it doesn't seem quite disproportionate.

Jay: You think Hizbollah would then become peaceful? Or would we be doing this all over again in six months?

Strawmen.

How many people were killed (heck, how many Israelis were killed) during the last year in Arab-Israeli conflict compared to the number of killed since Israel escalated the situation by invading and bombing Lebanon?

Red State Mike: That's easy. Thanks for the softball. I never said Syria was supplying Hezbollah with missiles. Feel free to try to quote me and prove me wrong.

Yes, you did. Your 12:52 post.

"They'd get them where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran."

The "them" in that statement was a reference that included missles.

Quoted. Proven wrong.

"It is not necessary in a conflict for either side to be right."

This must be the lefts indirect way of saying Hizbollah is wrong.

"It is both an invasion and an occupation by Israel"

This is a war people, provoked entirely by the actions of Hizbollah. Israel left southern Lebanon in 2000, leaving the area in good faith. Hizbollah, despite SC1559, continued to amass a huge aresnal with intentions of unleashing them on Israel from the ceeded land at the time of their choosing.

I don't expect any of the intellectually dishonest crowd to acknolwedge that fact. Their continued excuses for rogue organizations will continue to lead to bloodshed worldwide.

Have a nice day.

If god had Advocate for God as an advocate we'd all be speaking heathen now.

Fuel can be used to make a bomb. Even home heating fuel.

And you can put almost any combustible fluid in your gas tank and it will operate. Wreck the engine in a few months, but it will operate.

Geography here certainly is the issue since the area is tiny, cramped and difficult. And no one said anything about 'destroying geography'. That you thought you read that, however, I do not doubt. You're having some kind of religious experience.

AfG:

Howell Raines, who presided over Jayson Blair, is not longer editor-in-chief of the paper. Bill Keller is.

He resigned after that incident.

It's completely unfair to judge the paper's entire credibility on something like that -- especially after it took strong corrective steps.

I thought reflexive NYT-bashing was a right-wing staple?

Bob

Jay:

Nobody thinks raining missiles down on a civilian population is *right*, Jay.

Bob

AFG
Yes, you did. Your 12:52 post.

"They'd get them where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran."

The "them" in that statement was a reference that included missles.

Bzzzt!

Heh.

Your stupid is showing. It included missiles. What else did the statement include? How pathetic. Go back and read.

The sweet sound of CRICKETS. CHIRP, CHIRP, CHIRP!!!

cld: Which is just what has been happening these past eighty years.

And now it's been justified by Israeli apologists like you who insist that it is okay to attack every item of even remotely potential military use whether in the control of Hezbollah or not.

The katyushas are the indiscriminate attack on a civilian population.

So is the assumption that every loss of innocent civilian life is an event staged by Hezbollah.

Bob: Check the website, bro.

A search on google and altavista turns up no stories that say that Persian writing was found on rocket debris found in Israel from the most recent attacks (or from any other attacks that I can tell).

So, again, I'll wait until I can see the actual report to judge whether it said what you remember it saying and whether the reporting is credible.

Jay: Their continued excuses for rogue organizations will continue to lead to bloodshed worldwide.

You are talking about your excuses for the Bush administration and the GOP and the Israeli government, no doubt.

You absolutely insisted that.

No, I didn't, cld. You are quite simply a liar. I pointed out a) that Beirut airport is a civilian target, that b) even if it had "military significance" (which, again, I didn't deny, but rather pointed out, once again, that having "military significance" doesn't magically transform a civilian target into a military one), the fact that Israel has 100% air superiorty over Lebanon makes the airport's destruction a military unneccesary act, but rather one of collective punishment if not outright terror, and that c) given that the runways were destroyed, the fuel tanks were useless to aircraft that would have nowhere to take off from, so their spectacular destruction was not the destruction of a military target but, again, one likely intended to instill fear and terror in a civilian population -- our buddy Red Stat Mike's definition of a terrorist attack, if you please.

And, again, the fact that trucks in general might be military targets does not magically transform the civilian trucks Israel has destroyed into military ones. Nor the ambulances. Nor the carloads of families fleeing at Israel's instruction.

The long history of terrorist militias in this region using ambulances and 'hospitals' as cover is so well-documented only somebody overtly anti-semitic would fall for it.

Even granting, arguendo, that such a "long history" exists, it does not, once again, transform civilian ambulances and hospitals into military targets, nor does it give the Israelis license to target them.

Face facts, cld -- it's long past time for you to drop the argument that the Israelis are doing anything like surgical targeting of Hezbollah positions. Again, Israel's own actions prove you wrong. You're welcome to assert that all those dead kids are a legitimate military target, but your arguments are simply not convincing.

But given your dishonest representation of others' comments in these threads, that's hardly surprising.

cld: Fuel can be used to make a bomb.

Translation: it's okay to target retail market places that sell butane lighters because they could be used to collect enough butane to make a bomb. And the fact that a lot of innocent people and only innocent people are in those retail locations is irrelevant because there is no such thing as a disproportionate or immoral response when you are acting in the defense of Israel.

Got it!

Bob: It's completely unfair to judge the paper's entire credibility on something like that -- especially after it took strong corrective steps.

Well, there is also Judith Miller.

And I've seen plenty of "liberals" excoriate the "MSM" which I would assume includes the NYT.

Red State Mike: Your stupid is showing.

No, your mendacity and self-denial are showing.

And you still haven't provided that independent evidence that Hezbollah obtained its rockets from Iran, regardless of your waffling about Syria.

I really don't think anyone is in any danger of genocide in this. If we keep going on about it no one will notice when it really is happening.

Advocate for God is a right-wing stapler. Just really, really right.

And now it's been justified by Israeli apologists like you who insist that it is okay to attack every item of even remotely potential military use whether in the control of Hezbollah or not.

This is leaping to the same hysterical extremity as advocates for torture who carry on about the ticking bomb scenario, or go on about genocide at the drop of a pin.

Advocate for God, now you imagine people attacking butane lighters? You really should seek help for these anxiety seizures. I hear a prayer vigil and morphine are good.

AfG: them = more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads, and lots more SAMs and anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc.

RSM: They'd get them where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran.

RSM (with grammatical substitution): They'd get more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads, and lots more SAMs and anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc. where they got the rest. From Syria and Iran.

You're right, Bob, I shouldn't have called Al a C---face -- why tarnish something beautiful by associating it with Al? Guess I was just thinking about what would give him a coronary, not offend others.

These dipshits think they can impugn the patriotism of everyone who disagrees even slightly with them, but just because Bush can get away with it doesn't mean we have to take that from cowardly bootlickers sniping from the basement.

We're really going to have a nutsack implant about this, as Jon Stewart would say.
No offense to nutsacks everywhere.

Advocate for God:

From the NYT. Take this for what it's worth:

As Rockets Crash Around It, Squad Follows a Trail of Destruction

By CRAIG S. SMITH
Published: July 30, 2006

[...]

There are several kinds of rockets falling on Israel, many of them
more powerful than Katyushas. About 10 percent are Syrian Army rockets
that are 220 millimeters in diameter, or about eight and a half
inches, with a range of about 30 miles. They carry a warhead weighing
as much as 140 pounds.

There have been a few 240-millimeter rockets and a few Iranian-made
Fajr-3 rockets with about the same range but a larger warhead.

On Friday, the Israeli police said yet another kind of rocket carrying
200 pounds of explosives fell on the town of Afula. Hezbollah called
it a Khaibar-1; Israeli officials think it has a range of more than 50
miles and could be an Iranian-made Fajr-5 rocket or a new model
altogether.

But more than three-quarters of the estimated 3,000 rockets that have
fallen since the current fighting began are 122-millimeter versions of
a Russian rocket nicknamed Katyusha by Russian soldiers during World
War II after a popular wartime song about a girl longing for her
beloved.

Some of the rockets are simple, single-engine models, mostly made in
Iran where they are called Arash rockets. Others have two engines that
double their range to more than 12 miles. A modified model has a range
of almost 19 miles.

The nose cone carries an impact fuse that detonates the roughly 40
pounds of explosives packed with shrapnel into the first foot and a
half or so of metal tubing. The section carrying the warhead is
threaded and screwed onto the section containing the solid rocket
fuel, creating a ballistic bomb roughly 10 feet long.

Very few fail to explode.

[...]

Sometimes the rockets are olive drab, but they are usually unpainted,
the twisted remains occasionally bearing bits of Cyrillic writing if
they are Russian made or stamped with numbers that identify them as
made in Syria or Iran.

So far, Israel has not been hit by Hezbollahs Iranian-made Zelzal
rocket, which can carry 1,200 pounds of explosives as far as 120
miles. This month, Israel said it succeeded in hitting a launcher that
was about to fire one of the rockets from Beirut.

cld: . . . now you imagine people attacking butane lighters . . .

You are the one justifying attacking butane lighters; thus it is your hysterical extremity.

By this logic, of course, Hezbollah is justified in striking at every truck, car and fuel depot in Israel, since they all have fairly obvious military utility.

Which is just what has been happening these past eighty years.

I'm interested in your explanation of how Hezbollah started doing things (any things) more than a half-century before Hezbollah existed, and how they started attacking Israeli targets more than two decades before Israel existed. The former, I suppose, could be explained by Syria and Iran supplying Hezbollah with time machines, but the latter seems untenable unless Israel invaded and annexed territory in the past, as well, for Hezbollah to attack.

Gregory,

You absolutely insisted that. You're absolutely an idiot, re-imagining the world as if you were Terry Gilliam won't help.

You have no information about what those trucks were doing, where they came from, where they were heading. You have no information they weren't collateral damage.

But we have a lot of history of militias in Lebanon, and throughout the region, using ambulances to transport their fighters and weapons and exploiting the pictures when they get shot at.

Here's a recent example,

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002107.php

AFG
anti-tank weapons and trained suicidal nutcases, etc.

ANTI-TANK WEAPONS

ET CETERA.

Thank you for palying (and losing).

AfG:

Well, I try to be more careful about epistemological question, I guess. I have a hieuristic that hasn't steered me wrong so far.

First, objections to the MSM have more to do with editorial policy or subtle (or not-so-subtle) editorializing done in news articles. That's fairly easy to detect.

Out-and-out factual disputes, not so much.

As for Jayson Blair -- I never read any of his stories. But I knew Judith Miller's stuff was stinky from the first time I read it. A source who wouldn't show up at the site, identified as wearing a baseball cap? (The infamous Cureball, of course.) GMAFB.

That's of an entirely different order than the facts reported here.

If you choose to disbelieve them because you feel that Israel has a propaganda interest in painting those rockets as coming from Iran and Syria -- that's your choice, and I respect it.

As for myself, I'll believe the story until I have a concrete reason to do otherwise.

Bob

But we have a lot of history of militias in Lebanon, and throughout the region, using ambulances to transport their fighters and weapons and exploiting the pictures when they get shot at.

I believe there's also a lot of history of hospitals in Lebanon, and throughout the region, using ambulances to transport the sick and wounded.

The fact that others may have misused ambulances in the past is no proof that a particular ambulance destroyed by the IDF was being misused at that time. The burden of proof on such cases is on Israel to show that it had absolute proof that the ambulance was not in fact being used to evacuate the wounded.

Do you remember Alice? People used to tell her she was off her meds. She changed her handle to Patton, but people still told her she was off her meds.

I think Advocate for God is Alice on her meds.

Cureball = Curveball

You absolutely insisted that.

cld, here's your trouble: Repeating a lie doesn't actually make it the truth.

And again, pointing out that some [fill in the blank] could be legitimate military targets doesn't make the increasing number of documented cases of civilian trucks, cars, ambulances, hospitals, apartment buildings, etc., etc., into legitimate military targets after the fact, nor does it magically transform all those dead kids into evil Hezbollah fighters, still clutching AK-47s in their dead hands instead of pacifiers.

By the by, it's also clear that the vaunted IDF and Mossad also "no information about what those trucks were doing, where they came from, where they were heading" -- either that, or they're actually doing a piss-poor job of avoiding civilian casualties, contra your claims. You should stick with your silly suggestion that Lebanon's just too darn small to avoid civilian casualties.

Again, it must be embarrassing that every day, Israel's own actions belie your defenses of their conduct and make your apologies ever more feeble. And speaking of apologies, once again, noting Hezbollah's bad actions does nothing at all to excuse Israel's.

Oh, and I forgot to mention your earlier not-so-thinly-veiled suggestion, once again, that one who criticizes Israel's targeting civilians is anti-Semitic. Shame on you.

cmdicely,

Hezbollah was created for the purpose of harassing Israel and is an element in the conflict with Israel.

I use the term Israel generically to refer to the Jewish population after 1882. Perhaps I'm using it too loosely, but it seems a mouthful to type in too much nuance when the narrative is continuous.

Bob (NYT quote): Sometimes the rockets are olive drab, but they are usually unpainted,
the twisted remains occasionally bearing bits of Cyrillic writing if they are Russian made or stamped with numbers that identify them as
made in Syria or Iran.

So, the only writing is actually in Cyrillic (for all practical purposes, Russian), not Persian.

"Numbers" allegedly identify them as made in Syria or Iran, but I fail to see how a NYT reporter is sufficiently knowledgeable to say a particular set of numbers identifies the rocket as being from Syria or Iran (it doesn't say the numbers are written in any particular script and I don't recall the Iranians or Syrians using a different set of number characters than the West), much less which one, so it seems the reporter is actually relying on Israeli intelligence for that determination.

Pretty weak support for a definitive statement that these missles are being directly supplied by the governments of Iran and Syria.

Is that the most likely source? Probably.

But "probably" (or even "indisputably") based on mere speculation and administration lies got us into a quagmire in Iraq and turned out to be horribly wrong when it came to WMDs.

Red State Mike's claim that it is "indisputable", as if some definitive evidence existed beyond the mere claims of two dishonest governments, is tripe.

Some people don't want to wait for evidence.

We've suffered greatly for their unwillingness to wait for real evidence and real facts.

How much more suffering arising from partisan and racist speculation should we encourage?

Stefan,

You don't have any proof the ambulance hit wasn't hit collaterally.

This is a war people

What is a "war people"? The followers of a "war president"?

provoked entirely by the actions of Hizbollah.

Even granting, arguendo, the truth of that, so f-ing what?

The analysis of morality, effectiveness, or desirability of policy, including military action, is not limited to "who started it?"

Israel left southern Lebanon in 2000, leaving the area in good faith.

What is this even supposed to mean, "leaving the area in good faith."

Hizbollah, despite SC1559, continued to amass a huge aresnal with intentions of unleashing them on Israel from the ceeded land at the time of their choosing.

Evidence of this intent? Certainly, both their statements and their actual actions indicate that their intent was to use them in the event of a major Israeli incursion into Lebanon.

I don't expect any of the intellectually dishonest crowd to acknolwedge that fact.

"Intellectually dishonest" coming from you is amusing.

Their continued excuses for rogue organizations will continue to lead to bloodshed worldwide.

No one here is making excuses for Hezbollah. Saying that Israel's action is ill-conceived and counterproductive is not a defense of Hezbollah.

Again, you make the mistake of pretending that, in every fight, one side must be right.

And the Israeli raid on the 'hospital' yesterday, as far inside Hezbollah territory as it gets, evoked a violent firefight with Hezbollah fighters using rocket launchers and hand grenades.

I certainly hope my local hospital has such up to date equipment.

Advocate for God:

I never made a definitive statement on the origin of those rockets. I simply have no concrete reason to distrust the report -- save for inference based on past intelligence mistakes and the Miller fiasco.

So I have no problem restricting my truth category to "probably." This is also supported by the question you'd have to ask about where the rockets *did* come from, if not Iran and/or Syria? Nobody (least of all Hezbollah, Iran and Syria themselves) denies that there are alliances here.

So it doesn't seem prudent to doubt something without a stronger-looking alternative explanation.

Bob

Red State Mike: Thank you for palying [sic] (and losing).

Sorry, but you made no claim that one was supplying some of the things in the list and the other was supplying other things in the list, but clearly stated that both were supplying all the things in the list.

Don't trip while you are backpeddling - you're going pretty fast and you might hurt yourself.

And you still haven't provided any independent evidence, beyond mere administration and Israeli PR, that in any way, shape or form gives credence to your claim that it is indisputable that Iran (and Syria, according to your own words) are supplying Hezbollah with any of the items on the list, much less missles.

LOL.

cmdicely's point deserves repeating:

No one here is making excuses for Hezbollah. Saying that Israel's action is ill-conceived and counterproductive is not a defense of Hezbollah.

Gregory,

By now I'm sure you must have seen all the film on tv of Israel monitoring trucks on the road.

I've never suggested that criticizing Israel was in itself anti-semitic. I've only suggested that in the case of someone like you, who will spontaneously divine the most malevolent intentions on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, while finding excuses and justifications for any kind of falsehood and underhandedness from any Islamic source.

In three weeks of fighting there has been about 600 casualties in a circumstance that amounts to full-scale war. That isn't very many at all.

What comparable example do you know of that produced fewer casualties?

Your criticism seems based only on your malice toward Israel generally. What else could I call it?

Advocate for God:

I also *did* entirely misremember the writing on the rockets as being in Persian, not Cyrillic.

That wasn't an attempt to deceive, just a brainfart. I do agree with you that the reporter would probably have to have those rocket numbers interpreted for him by Israeli intelligence.

Bob

Having listened to Blair's speech in full toaday on NPR, what he said was "RENASCENCE". As a Brit, he would have tipped a little to the French pronounciation of "renaissance".

Petty as both renaissance and renascence mean the same literally -- Old French root versus earlier Latin -- but it takes away any overtones of Europe's cultural recovery. Basically he's asking for a new start as to how we deal with the broad sweep of terrorism.

His speeches are so insipidly delivered, and his assumptions can be challenged, and his logic muddy. But he's just another politician arguing his corner.

It also reminds me about the other translations of Ahmendinejad's "destroy Israel" speech that were far more nuanced than the translation that made the news. Don't suppose I'll ever know what he really said.

Can anyone show that Israel is targetting every hospital and every ambulance as a matter of course?

Bob: . . . you'd have to ask about where the rockets *did* come from, if not Iran and/or Syria?

So, there is no private black market for weapons?

No Iranian or Syrian military grunts have any incentives to divert equipment to Hezbollah out of either political sympathy or mere greed?

Russia?

Former soviet republics?

Pakistan?

Libya?

Rogue elements in Iran and Syria that aren't acting on behalf of the country's leaders?

Does Hezbollah really have no other even remotely possible supporters and no other sources for weapons than Iran and Syria?

In any event, it was Red State Mike's certainty and claim of indisputableness that I was responding to - you jumped in to defend the idea, but I see little evidence beyond speculation and reliance on the Bush administration and Israeli intelligence, since there is nothing in the quoted story that indicates that the NYT reporter saw the numbers on the debris or made the connection himself (or herself).

I have confidence in neither country.

If you want to believe probably simply because it appears in a NYT article apparently reporting Israeli conclusions based on vague bits of evidence, so be it.

I see that as no better than concluding probably from the general impression that Iran and Syria support Hezbollah physically because they support them politically.

I'm simply tired of conservative parrots telling everybody how "indisputable" their conclusions about the world are, even though they are at a loss to provide any real evidence to back those conclusions up, beyond the mere assertions of the Bush administration, Rush Limbaugh, NRO, or Ann Coulter.

Oh, this is rich:

Can anyone show that Israel is targetting every hospital and every ambulance as a matter of course?

While it's refreshing to see cld dropping the scare quotes from hospital and ambulance, it's amusing to see that he/she/it, confronted with the undeniable reality that Israel has in fact struck hospitals and ambulance, now seeks to change the subject by demanding evidence "that Israel is targetting every hospital and every ambulance as a matter of course."

No need, cld -- the ones Israel has targeted are war crimes enough.

Memo to Israel apologists: Pointing out that Israel is capable of inflicting >more civilian casualties does not excuse the civilian casualties that it is causing.

As for your earlier defense of your odious "anti-Semitic" suggestion, cld, you're long past the presumption of the benefit of the doubt, so there's no alternative but to conclude that your misrepresentations are the product of dishonesty. Shame on you.

Here's a hint: to paraphrase cmdicely, noting that Israel's action is ill-conceived and counterproductive is no more evidence of enmity toward Israel than it is a defense of Hezbollah.

And, I might add, giving Israel a free pass on its slaughter of civilians -- in other words, insisting that Israel is and ought to be on the same moral level with terrorists like Hezbollah -- hardly seems to be defending Israel's interest. You, cld, seem so intent on defending Israel's action that you seem equally blinded to the ramifications of your ardent, if transparently phony, defenses. Sad, really.

I don't think Israel's actions will have been counter-productive if a stabilizing and peacekeeping force is emplanted as a buffer.

I think that would go far to achieving their objective, though it seems inevitable that force would spend its entire time there fighting with Hezbollah, and whatever other group can be manuevered into it.

Bob: That wasn't an attempt to deceive, just a brainfart.

I didn't think otherwise.

Advocate for God:

Well, I certainly don't blame you on your more general gripe about "definitive" pictures of the Arab/Muslim world (which support, of course, hardline US military positions).

But in this particular instance, I don't see Iran and/or Syria supplying milliles to Hezbollah as being a particularly high-stakes claim. It'd be quite another thing if RSM (or anybody) was alleging that they were suppying Hezbollah with, say, WMDs.

I believe this mainly because there's no secret that both countries are aligned both militarily and politically with Hezbollah. This is not like continuing to insist that Iran is attempting to build a nuclear weapon -- something we Americans take as an article of faith but for which there's exactly zero concrete evidence. That's the kind of propaganda claim about Iran that I find highly worrisome -- especially when Europe plays along with it in the UNSC.

Also, missiles are not things that are particularly easy to smuggle. They ship in large sections and demand a certain amount of expertise in handling. That's why seems less likely to me that they're coming from rogue elements in any particular military than they are coming from competent armies.

There's another level of evidence, and that's satellite photos of traffic through Syria -- which doubtless have been analyzed to death during the six-year lull after the Israeli occupation during which Hezbollah built up its rather huge arsenal of missiles. Those sorts of claims made public are as a category more iffy, of course. So I'd just consider them supporting evidence for why Israel seems so certain that it knows how to blockade the points at which the missiles are entering the country. I have no direct evidence of this (haven't read anything about it), but it seems a likely surmise.

Again, this is all just an entirely armchair way to sift through a variety of claims about the war. I'm entirely willing to keep an open mind about all of it, and only intend here to share my opinions.

Bob

Gregory,

Your fantasy world is really limitless. Every part of this argument is circular, so circular it's hard to pick a point to start.

Hezbollah was created to attack Israel, the same way Hamas was created to attack Israel, and the same way the Palestinians were organized in the 20s to attack Israel (to destablize the British, which is why Arabs always blithely insist that Israel acts as an agent of the US, the Imperial successor, though there isn't any plausible rationale for it).(Which is not to say Israel ever acted as an agent of the British, the British were actually trying to get rid of them).

Simply the statement 'giving Israel a free pass on its slaughter of civilians' puts your argument into irreality. Where do you get that idea? Why would that happen? And it is Hezbollah who is getting these people killed.

from a letter in a Berlin newspaper, 2002,

http://judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0429

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.

from, http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=2&hp&ex=1154145600&en=aa7501c3f591cb1e&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah’s fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.

One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.

“This is what’s happening, but no one wants to say it” for fear of Hezbollah, she said.

One thing is certain - apologists for Israel never mask their hatred of Islam. Watching websites like this bend into pretzel shapes to defend the indefensible gives me the sick feeling that Jews are controlling events in the news.

If it's now self evident that most of the column inches in the press are apologists for the murderers in Tel Aviv - then Jews have a bigger problem than Mel Gibson getting drunk and telling THE TRUTH

...I've only suggested that in the case of someone like you, who will spontaneously divine the most malevolent intentions on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, while finding excuses and justifications for any kind of falsehood and underhandedness from any Islamic source.

In three weeks of fighting there has been about 600 casualties in a circumstance that amounts to full-scale war. That isn't very many at all....

Posted by: cld on August 2, 2006 at 4:53 PM | PERMALINK

Fortunately, this hasn't amounted to anything close to full-scale war as evidenced by Israel stepping up the ground campaign this week and directly engaging Hizbullah.

As the Israeli general said at the outbreak of war, "We're going to take Lebanon back 20 years." That was their intent and that is what they've done. They have in no way restricted the damage to dstroying Hizbullah except by the most lenient interpretation. There targetting has ensured civilian casualties and is, therefore, a deliberate result.

And if this is a proportionate response you definintely need a new brain. Those who sow the wind...

Before accusing others of "melevolent intentions" you should look to your own prejudices, lack of fact based assertions, and your own weak excuses and justifications.

MY question for Bob - are you Jewish or are you just tryng to keep from losing your job?

not that jews have any power over anything like that, I mean I would never suggest that careers end with the flick of a jewish finger... no I wouldn't say that... but I just wondered... how do you feign impartiality everyday around here....

When I see the lengths you go to to please your masters... well, it's embarassing.

I use the term Israel generically to refer to the Jewish population after 1882. Perhaps I'm using it too loosely, but it seems a mouthful to type in too much nuance when the narrative is continuous.

What? So last night I was having dinner in an Israeli neighborhood in New York? And here I thought it was full of Polish and Ukrainian Hasidim....

brit:

You know, there are few things I enjoy more on this forum than conspiratorial ad-hominem contempt from anti-semites.

It makes me feel quite proud to be taken for an honorary Jew :)

But you might check the Reality Sinks In thread and read my exchange with DBL before you make any conclusive judgments on how much of an apologist I am for the State of Israel or the IDF.

In the interest of, you know, fairness and all.

Asswipe.

Bob

So, I am using it too loosely. OK.

But the term Zionists is loaded since the UN made a fool of itself over it, and saying Jewish can too often sound like religion in a context where Muslims insist everyone is described by their religion and are always promoting their interests as inherently religious. (They refer to people from India as 'Hindu nationalists' and India itself as 'Hindustan'.)

So, I got into using 'Israel' as a generic catch-all.

Gregory,

Your fantasy world is really limitless. Every part of this argument is circular, so circular it's hard to pick a point to start.

Hezbollah was created to attack Israel,...

[No. It was created to defend Lebanon and to attack the Israeli occupiers.]

the same way Hamas was created to attack Israel,...

[No. Hamas was created to defend the Palestinians from the brutal and repressive actions, as they saw them, of the Israeli occupiers of their land. That after Fatah became too "docile".]

and the same way the Palestinians were organized in the 20s to attack Israel...

[Israel existed in no way in the 20s or 30s. I wonder if this is a giveaway on your rabbidness?]

(to destablize the British, which is why Arabs always blithely insist that Israel acts as an agent of the US, the Imperial successor, though there isn't any plausible rationale for it).(Which is not to say Israel ever acted as an agent of the British, the British were actually trying to get rid of them)...

[Unlike the peaceful Zionists and their equally terroristic acts, particularly in the 40s. Or is the justification for that something completely different?]

Simply the statement 'giving Israel a free pass on its slaughter of civilians' puts your argument into irreality. Where do you get that idea?...

[From your blind defence of these atrocities?]

Why would that happen?...

[Because the Israelis wish it so?]

And it is Hezbollah who is getting these people killed.

[So, in your book, you can be the trigger-puller but no guilt attaches. "It's all their fault, they made me do it." How mature.]

From a letter....

Posted by: cld on August 2, 2006 at 5:28 PM | PERMALINK

No one here is disputing the established facts. It's your read that all the fault lies on one side and no blame attaches to the leading military power in the area that applies its force as an arbitrary punishment of a whole country, which they say they want to see as a stable democracy, and they are only looking to defang Hizbullah. No contradictions there, I suppose?

Talk about a fantasy world.

stefan says:

The burden of proof on such cases is on Israel to show that it had absolute proof that the ambulance was not in fact being used to evacuate the wounded.

Oh were that the case.

Don't forget the words of Haim Ramon, Israeli Justice Minister:

"All those in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way
to Hezbollah... In order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers
battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be
flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in."

For berserking bigots, that is all the "proof" they need.

I don't think Israel's actions will have been counter-productive if a stabilizing and peacekeeping force is emplanted as a buffer.

Since such a force was being considered even before Israel's actions as part of the discussion of what to do when UNIFIL's mandate expired this year, because many people in the UN had noted the utility of more robust peacekeeping missions and were tired UNIFIL acheiving nothing, and saw that a robust force to enforce 1559 was essential to progress in the region, I don't see how such a force being implemented—since it would likely have been without Israeli and, largely on Israel's behalf, US resistance—would make Israel's actions any less unnecessary and counterproductive.

cmdicely
Since such a force was being considered even before Israel's actions as part of the discussion of what to do when UNIFIL's mandate expired this year...

As I've said before, I'm all for it. But I also don't think Hezbollah and their handlers in Damascus Iran will allow it. At least not without a fight. They'll attack the force, and draw them into killing civilians, and the forces will be forced to leave by their publics. Hezbollah can afford to patient. Very, very patient. My prediction.

Hezbollah was created for the purpose of harassing Israel and is an element in the conflict with Israel.

Hezbollah was created for the purpose of establishing an Islamic Republic along the Iranian model in Lebanon; it harrasses Israel, insofar as it does so, as one of many means to that end (both to establish credibility among Lebanese, and because its hard to establish an Islamic Republic in territory under military occupation by a Jewish one.)

Its actions in fighting Israel, of course, reflect the ongoing enmity between Israel and its neighbors, since without that enmity it would neither be necessary as a component of securing territory nor useful as means of gaining support. But Hezbollah is not part of some broader struggle against Israel; indeed, the other supposed members of that broad conspiracy are largely either Hezbollah's rivals (in the case of groups like al-Qaeda) or allies (in the case of Iran) in their real struggle—a struggle to define how the Islamic world will be governed.

As I've said before, I'm all for it. But I also don't think Hezbollah and their handlers in Damascus Iran will allow it. At least not without a fight. They'll attack the force, and draw them into killing civilians, and the forces will be forced to leave by their publics.

Why?

All my opinion of course..
The international force will be what Lebanon best needs to stand on their own and grow a real nonsectarian democracy, and that seems to be the last thing that Iran or Syria or Hezbollah want. I mean, if their own countries don't have that, why would they want it in Lebanon?

So how to best undermine such a mission?

Killing a bunch of the international troops has always worked in the past against the west (Marine Barracks, French barracks, Belgian troops in Rwanda), they'll look for new opportunities.

If not a mass killing, then pick them off one at a time. Try to generate quagmire.

And of course draw them into killing civilians. Look for a heavy-handed response by the troops. Anger in the Arab street. Anger in Arabs and muslims in their own countries. Think burning cars and riots in France.

The flip side, is given that one anticipates Hezbollah's actions, how best to counter? That I'm not so sure about.

But I believe the center of gravity for that lies not in military action in Lebanon, but in placing pressure on Syria and Iran. And that will take a lot of pressure. Hezbollah is a powerful tool of those two, and they will use them to maximum effect. And any compromise on their part will be temporary. Unless of course regime change comes to them.

All my opinion of course.. The international force will be what Lebanon best needs to stand on their own and grow a real nonsectarian democracy, and that seems to be the last thing that Iran or Syria or Hezbollah want.

I think its pretty clear that such an intervention is what Lebanon needs if it is to have a reasonable chance of standing on its own and establishing a functioning state: whether it is a nonsectarian democracy or an Islamic Republic.

So I think its in the interests of Hezbollah and Iran, though probably not Syria.

But I believe the center of gravity for that lies not in military action in Lebanon, but in placing pressure on Syria and Iran. And that will take a lot of pressure.

Too bad, then, that we have no pressure to bear. As Matthew Yglesias wrote recently

"If Syria is the real problem here, then, not to put too fine a point on it, someone needs to take some action of some kind related to Syria. After all, why would Syria tell Hezbollah to stop doing this shit? What combination of threats and inducements is Syria supposed to offer Hezbollah to get it to stop? And why would Syria offer them anyway? What's Kofi Annan supposed to do about this? If Bush wants to make Syria do something, he needs to do something to make it happen. Either offer Syria something, or threaten Syria somehow, or some combination of the two. The same goes for Iran. In case Bush hasn't noticed, the regimes in Damascus and Tehran aren't run by kind people looking to help the world out of the goodness of their hearts. Nor has the administration's habit of vaguely suggesting we'd like to overthrow their governments rendered either nation more likely to help us or our Israeli friends out of a jam."

cmdicely, I don't see how such a force being implemented—since it would likely have been without Israeli and, largely on Israel's behalf, US resistance—would make Israel's actions any less unnecessary and counterproductive.

But it's hard to imagine they could have gotten in there without fighting their way in. Hezbollah is pretty adamant about not disarming for anyone.

Israeli apologists always make it sound like Hezbolleh and Hamas were created to ATTACK Jews.

These organizations were formed to PROTECT local Arabs from Jewish aggressors and occupiers.

ISrael and AMerican Jews have completely taken over the context of this war.

"Charles": ISrael and AMerican Jews have completely taken over the context of this war.

Mel? Mel Gibson? Is that really you, Mel?

From it's inception Hezbollah was dedicated to the destruction of Israel,

from An Open Letter, the Hizbollah Program, 1985,

http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel (See ICT Note)
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

Red State Mike said: "so, Israel should have waited until Hezbollah had even more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads,..?"

The same argument was made by the "thick as a brick" crowd, in 1978 and 1982, when the Nazi Jews previously invaded Lebanon.

However, even though these invasions were deemed a success, the resistance got even more missiles, and missiles with even longer ranges and heavier warheads,.. anyway.

brit said: "MY question for Bob - are you Jewish or are you just tryng to keep from losing your job?"

Yeah, Bob is a Jew who pretends not to be.

The world is full of Jews who pretend not to be Jews.

George W Bush is a Jew (who pretends to be a Christian)!

This partly explains the weirdness of the man and why he never acts like a Christian.

Here, have a look at him praying at the Wailing Wall.

He could be praying to Allah, but it doesn't look like it. And what is that funny cap thing on his head?

Yes, Bush is a Jew, he has Jews all through his family tree.

For example, Levi Pierce and his mother Barbara Pierce (Levi and Barbara are related) are both Jews.

Pierce is an Americanization of the Jewish name Perez/Peretz/Peres. The name is of Hebrew origin. According to Genesis 38, Pharez (the spelling Perez is also used (in the First Book of Chronicles)) was a son of Judah born to Tamar (who incidentally, was Judah's daughter in law (Judah, the father of the Jews, was a dirty old man)).

In case you are interested Levi and Barbara Pierce are related as follows:

Thomas Holbrook (d. 1677) m. Jane Powys
.John Holbrook m. Elizabeth Stream
|.Hannah Holbrook m. Ephraim Pierce
| .Ephraim Pierce m. Mary Low
|  .Mial Pierce m. Judith Round
|   .Nathan Pierce m. Lydia Martin
|    .Isaac Pierce m. Anna Fitch
|     .LEVI PIERCE m. Betsey Slade Wheeler
|      .Elizabeth Slade Pierce m. Courtland Philip Livingston Butler
|       .Mary Elizabeth Butler m. Robert Emmet Sheldon
|        .Flora Sheldon m. Samuel Prescott Bush
|         .Prescott Sheldon Bush m. Dorothy Walker
|          .GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH m. Barbara Pierce
|           .GEORGE W. BUSH, US President
.Thomas Holbrook m. Jane Kingman
 .Peter Holbrook m. Alice Godfrey
  .Sylvanus Holbrook m. Naomi Cook
   .John Holbrook m. Zilpah Thayer
    .John Holbrook m. Rhoda Thayer
     .John Holbrook m. Mercy Hill
      .Chloe Holbrook m. James Pierce
       .Jonas James Pierce m. Kate Pritzel
        .Scott Pierce m. Mabel Marvin
         .Marvin Pierce m. Pauline Robinson
          .BARBARA PIERCE

Doesn't that mean BUSH's mother is his cousin? Always thought Bush was inbred.

In the 2004 US election you got to choose between the Jew Kerry and the Jew Bush.

Some choice,... like the choice between the front side of a piece of paper, or the back side.

So the result of the election has already been decided before you get to "choose".

I would rather have the Iranian type of election.

And here's a couple of snaps of Bush's grandaddy,.. sure looks Jewish to me:

Prescott Sheldon Bush with Ike.
Prescott Sheldon Bush with Nixon.

Assorted shots of Bush with Rabbis:

Bush visiting the St. Petersburg synagogue on a rushed trip to Russia.
Another shot from the St. Petersburg synagogue visit.
Jeb Bush celebrates Chanukah with assorted Rabbis.
Bushes Mom posing with a local and Russian Rabbi.

Stefan
Too bad, then, that we have no pressure to bear. As Matthew Yglesias wrote recently:

I agree. Hezbollah is the symptom...

"...In three weeks of fighting there has been about 600 casualties in a circumstance that amounts to full-scale war. That isn't very many at all...."

That's a point worth thinking about. For all of the destruction to infrastructure that Israel is doing, they don't seem to be doing a very good job of diminishing Hezbollah.

Maybe the real Israeli goal is to make sure the are surrounded by weak states. How else can you account for the enormous onslaught based on a relatively minor taking of POWs?

My take is...This was aimed at Lebanon. Hezbollah is a convenient smokescreen. Israel can't afford a succesful democratic state (even partially Arab) in their back yard.

MLuther
My take is...This was aimed at Lebanon. Hezbollah is a convenient smokescreen. Israel can't afford a succesful democratic state (even partially Arab) in their back yard.

I disagree. Hezbollah was all about not letting Lebanon be a successful democratic independent state. Remember, Hezbollah counter-protested in favor of Syria when they were forg-marched out by the democratic opposition. That spoke volumes, as actions speak louder than words.

Many experts think that while Israel is weakening Hezbollah, it is weakening the rest of Lebanon faster, and so making Hezbollah relatively stronger. I believe that's the fear.

Yo Kevin - you cannot ignore the firestorm for fear of pissing off your jewish friends.

BRAVEHEART - THE MOVIE

If there were a camera rolling every time a Jew called someone a sand nigger after a few beers - we would not be having this conversation..

that I have to remind you children what Mel Gibson said...

he said..

Jews cause all the wars.

and he asked the officer

Are you a Jew?

Now to hear the NYP - he had a megaphone asking the neighbors to bring out their jews.

You youngsters must understand the reason for the MELTDOWN - is because Jews can ill afford the consequences when the locals in any given occupation - begin to speak to each other about

them there Jews

They know that's when it's time to pack up the operation and find a new host country to fleece.

Hence - the identifying stars and tattoos.

Such was the danger of unidentified Jews.

It is called CRYPSIS - they feign membership in our society while they conduct their own...

WE are bystanders in THEIR War.... kind like what Mel said.

this is huge, bush and the necons are now completely isolated. will the MSM even report it?

Wapo the necon pravda? doubt it.

"charles/slim/watcher/pal/etc.":

> WE are bystanders in THEIR War.... kind like what Mel said.

So lemme ask ya something there, uhh, Horst :) If Mel was only
drunkenly telling the truth -- why is he falling all over himself
apologizing for it? Not one, but two public apologies, the second
one literally begging Abe Foxman himself to forgive his "out of
control" behavior and comments directly against his faith. That
he's, you know, a lifetime alcoholic and wishes the entire Jewish
community to bear witness to what is now his journey of recovery.

If it's all about the Jews -- where did "sugar tits" come from? Was
he telling the truth about busty female arresting officers, too?

And why should Mel, you know, give a shit? More than Hanks, or Cruise,
or Robbins, or Sarandon, or Streep -- Mel Gibson has Fuck You money.
He's made several hundred million dollars of profit off the largest
grossing film in history, The Passion of the Christ. A movie which
-- argue the anti-semitic intent -- nonetheless directly plays
off of ancient stereotypes of the evil Jews who murdered Our Lord.
Kinda makes it hard for the guy's apologies to be taken seriously.

So why duck from it? Even if you believe that the Hollywood studio
system is a bastion of Jewish control (and that's one of the more
*cough* reasonable claims of the conspiracy theorists), Mel doesn't
need them. He can self-produce and self-distribute any movie with
any budget he chooses. He can Tell The Truth all day long about the
Jewish Conspiracy and bypass all the Frank Riches and Roger Eberts.

So why isn't he out there with you on the front lines, eh? Why
was he working with Disney, narrating a documentary about the
Holocaust? (Disney cancelled the project after the arrest. I
guess they figured it would be kind of like having the Imperial
Wizard of the KKK narrating a film about the civil rights movement :)

Whether those apologizes are sincere or just an attempt to salvage
some dignity, you can't say Mel was only bending to the will of his
Jewish Masters. Mel Gibson has no Masters. He made a fortune off
of a movie that trafficked in anti-semitic imagery and pissed off
large segments of the Jewish community. He can write his own ticket.
A scene like that could've wrecked the careers of any number of stars,
but not Gibson's, who is the biggest moneymaker in the industry.

Could it be, Heinrich, that Mel actually *is* being sincere? That
he's longtime alcoholic, and that booze not so much makes you tell
the truth as liberates your Inner Asshole? That the place where
Mel's anti-semitism comes from is a dark and ugly place, a place
where people hunt for simple excuses and scapegoats to blame large
and complex problems on? It's only human nature, after all. I'm
sure if you got fired from your job and immediately went out and got
shitfaced with your buddies, you'd also be filled with every reason
in the book why you got fired except your own conduct and performance.

It's just like a certain species of ugly political demagogue to
conflate these moments of human weakness with pearls of great wisdom.

Bob

RSM: That spoke volumes, as actions speak louder than words.

How trite.

Funny, though, how you've given the words of the Bush administration more volume then you've given its actions.

Wow... now Gibson is SATAN because he said SUGAR TITS>..

That's a stretch - even for a Jew.

That pretty much disqualifies the entire NBA, NFL, AFL... need I go on?

You guys are making fools of yourself with this...

people who DONT understand the nature of this fiasco.. are beginning to get it...

The humiliation and degradation of Gibson AND his multiple apologies only CONFIRM WHAT HE SAID...

there are more mormons than Jews in AMerica.. .yet we don't have 10 Mormon Senators.. Mormons don't own Clear channel or ALL of the football and basketball teams... most of the newspapers and ALL of the movie studios and tv networks... right?

and don't site Murdoch.. his mother was an Australian Jewess named GREENE

Charles:

I never said nor implied that Mel Gibson was Satan.

Only that he confirms the old adage: Instant Asshole -- just add alcohol.

What's your excuse?

Bob

Funny how the Jews wheel out Gibson, or his dad, whenever they feel the need,.... what do ya reckon,...

I don't get it. Why would you express minimum wage as a percentage of median? There doesn't seem to be any real logic to that. It might make some sense to look minimum wage in regard to per capita GDP, but median wage seems like an irrelevant comparison.

OTOH, I have to agree with your conservative friend: that things like this only get publicized if they serve the right is part of the reason the left is losing. And its not just that the right has unreasonably low standards; while this is, at best, minimal evidence, it is the kind of thing that rightly would, if publicized, put pressure on the right to make its case rather than just asserting on an "everyone knows" basis that higher minimum wages will "of course

"slim/watcher/pal/etc.":

Funny how you neither answer questions nor advance arguments.

I guess nobody bothered to teach you that correlation doesn't prove causation.

Maybe people are rolling out Gibson because he acted like a world-class asshole.

Remember him during your next encounter with a breathalyzer. Try not to act the way that he did.

I somehow doubt you have a spare $5000 lying around to wipe your butt with if you needed to post bail.

Bob

"Funny how you neither answer questions nor advance arguments"

I guess that statement shows what a total dickhead you are,....

Coming from a queer Jew who ignores nearly every argument I have advanced,....

And who dribbles total garbage when he attempts to "answer" if you could ever call it that.

"slim/watcher/pal/etc.":

You don't advance arguments. You post boilerplate over and over and over again and launch ad-hominem attacks.

I'm not only a Jew now. I'm also queer.

That's your level of "analysis." Shit ... you know. I must be getting under your skin somehow :)

I really don't give a flying fuck what sort of names you call me or accusations you make. Nobody believes them.

They merely go to show all and sundry that you exist beyond the pale of reason.

Bob

Yes, but for some reason you only ignored "nearly every argument" he supposedly advanced. For him to even allow that -- well, it's clearly a cry for help. I mean, the man spends all his spare time (and plenty of it) trying to get the approval of queer Jews.

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