Farsi, not Persian.

Hopefully that doesn't include firing any gay Persian speakers.

Hey, that's funny. I remember well the gay Arabic speakers who had to be fired in spite of the fact they were in desperate demand.

Also, it's pretty obvious that Bush and the people he has hired are aggressively ignorant in the ways of foreign cultures.

And really Kevin, that axis of evit stuff was just a speech writer having fun, remember? Just because GWB incorporated it into the State of the Union address is no reason to dog him about it.

It was just sort of a frat joke.

Daryl: I think Persian is a more general term that includes Farsi. Though I could be wrong. Knowledgable explanations are welcome.

diffuse - to pour out and spread, as a fluid

defuse - to make less dangerous, tense, or embarrassing

We can assume that the Post people have been to college. Spent all their time playing Nintendo and not learning to speak the probably one language they know.

Sad.

I'm hoping against hope it is a disinformation campaign to lull Iraninans into believing that we know very little about them.

I think Persian is a more general term that includes Farsi

Wait, now we have to learn two new languages?! Babblefish don't fail me now.

As someone wrote here a few months ago, having someone in charge who actually knew anything would just be soooooooo elitist.

A House committee report says we don't know squat about Iran:

Nonsense. We know a lot about Iran. For example we know Iran is funding and arming Islamofacists trying to stop the advance of democracy in Iraq.

Link

"A senior US military official said there is "clear evidence" that Iran is funding, training and arming Shiite extremists to destabilize Iraq.

"I think it is irrefutable that Iran is responsible for training, funding and equipping some of these Shia extremist groups, and also providing advanced IED technology," said Brigadier General Michael Barbero, using the acronym for "improvised explosive devices."

"And there is clear evidence of that," he added at a Pentagon press conference."

That in itself is sufficient reason to liberate the Iranian people from the Islamofascist Ayatollahs.

It was just sort of a frat joke.

You misspelled "fart".

"the House Intelligence Committee staff report questioned whether the United States could even effectively engage in talks with Tehran on ways to diffuse tensions."

I question whether anybody in White House even wants to engage in talks with Tehran.

Daryl: I think Persian is a more general term that includes Farsi. Though I could be wrong. Knowledgable explanations are welcome.

A bit of poking around at linguistic sources suggests that "Modern Persian" or simply "Persian" and "Farsi" (and also "Parsi") are synonyms when referring to the modern langauge. Occasionally, more specific terms ("Western Farse" vs. "Eastern Farsi", or "Irani vs. Dari") are used to distinguish the form used in Iran vs. that used in Afghanistan. There seem to be a number of different classification schemes that don't line up perfectly, but none of them that I can find use "Persian" as a more general form and and "Farsi" as a more specific one.

"Persian" seems to be preferred over "Farsi" as the English name of the language.

I think Persian is a more general term that includes Farsi. Though I could be wrong. Knowledgable explanations are welcome.

Persian and Farsi are different names for the same language. "Persian" is the English name; "Farsi" is the Arabic name.

I should have said that "Farsi" is the English transliteration of the Arabic name.

Isn't Farsi also the Farsi name for Farsi?

We don't even know enough to talk to them intelligently.

Fortunately, Bush doesn't view that as impediment or a problem that needs to be addressed.

In fact, when you plan to rule by force, getting to know your victims can often lead to unwelcome pangs of conscience.

*cough*

I nominate Charlie for Secretary of Ignorance.

Has fucking ignorance stopped these dirty motherfuckers before?

Shit, the revel in their fucking stupidity.

Unfortunately we're paying for it.

A lady who works 10 feet from me at the office majored in Farsi. Think that qualifies me for a job in the Bush White House?

OOPS, I know ignorance and stupidity are two separate issues, but these assholes are both, and damned proud of it.

Isn't Farsi also the Farsi name for Farsi?

I thought that was "Parsi".

A lady who works 10 feet from me at the office majored in Farsi.

Unless you give her unsolicited backrubs too, you're still suspect.

But she's pregnant already, otherwise she'd be in for big bucks, um, big paychecks.

sufficient reason to liberate the Iranian people

But, do they have oil reserves for Texans to liberate, and
fresh water for Haliburton to Liberate?

Can't have one without t'other.

Here's a stupid question: doesn't it seem like we've heard a lot -- more than one instance, at least -- about gay linguists in the Army? Why are there so many in the first place? I realize this sounds like a, uh, straight line, but is there some stereotype there I need to be aware of?

"Between 1998 and 2004, the military discharged 20 Arabic and six Farsi speakers, according to Department of Defense data obtained by the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military under a Freedom of Information Act request."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6824206

Persian=Farsi=Parsi

In languages using the arabic alphabet (and also the Hebrew alphabet or any other semitic alphabet, going all the way back to the phoenician script), the p and f sounds are represented by the same letter, so there is some ambiguity in how to say certain words. (Another well-known such pairing would be Philistine and Palestine.)

I have on my books, a copy of "Speak Modern Persian." Most of my neighbors refer to the language as Farsi. I've never heard "Parsi" used, but could see how it would arise.

You got me there DonBoy, I don't know.

But keep your eye on the ball. The important thing is to keep the moral zealots happy. Competency, success, life, and good health are secondary.

the p and f sounds are represented by the same letter

Actually, in Arabic, there is no P sound. Arabs tend to replace the "P" with a "B" when speaking english. I too have never heard "Parsi" in conversation.

"Here's a stupid question: doesn't it seem like we've heard a lot -- more than one instance, at least -- about gay linguists in the Army? Why are there so many in the first place? I realize this sounds like a, uh, straight line, but is there some stereotype there I need to be aware of??"

In the '60s and '70s, the graduates of the Army's language school in Monterey, CA, were collectively referred to as "Monterey Marys". Selection for the school and successful completion, especially in the more demanding languages, required intelligence, dedication, and attention to detail. Sound familiar?

The same standards apply today. Army linguists (most of whom are trained as communication intercept operators, not translators or interrogaters) are better educated and more intelligence than the average soldier.

In the draft era, college educated draftees were offered language training and assignment to the Army Security Agency (http://www.nasaa-home.org/) as a way of avoiding being assigned to one of the combat arms. ASA had its own recruiters at the reception depots to identify likely candidates. The desire to avoid direct combat helped earned linguists the reputation of being "not real men".

doesn't it seem like we've heard a lot -- more than one instance, at least -- about gay linguists in the Army? Why are there so many in the first place? I realize this sounds like a, uh, straight line, but is there some stereotype there I need to be aware of?

It's because communication is *so* gay.

Butch up and kill someone instead.

Let's see. Bush announced Iran was part of the Axis of Evil four years ago. Since that time, Iran's leader has announced Israel "should be wiped off the map." Iran's government has thumbed its nose at UN demands it stop its nuclear program. And ominously, many believe Iran was behind Hezbollah's attacks on Israel several weeks ago.

Looks like Bush was right.

little ole jim from red country: "And really Kevin, that axis of evit stuff was just a speech writer having fun, remember? Just because GWB incorporated it into the State of the Union address is no reason to dog him about it. It was just sort of a frat joke."

And if you think that's a knee-slapper, little ole jim, here's more hilarious White House hijinks from the "Washington Whispers" column in U.S. News and World Report. So go ahead, pull my finger!:

"Animal House in the West Wing -- He loves to cuss, gets a jolly when a mountain biker wipes out trying to keep up with him, and now we're learning that the first frat boy loves flatulence jokes. A top insider let that slip when explaining why President Bush is paranoid around women, always worried about his behavior. But he's still a funny, earthy guy who, for example, can't get enough of fart jokes. He's also known to cut a few for laughs, especially when greeting new young aides, but forget about getting people to gas about that."

The desire to avoid direct combat helped earned linguists the reputation of being "not real men".

Just like TANG.

...although with that acronym, you're just asking for trouble.

Well I remember playing Parcheesee when I was little. Does that qualify me to work in the White House?

Frequency Kenneth: "Looks like Bush was right."

You mistakenly left the "-wing" off your last word.

Donald: right, the man has no class. Me, myself, I've merely taken pride in teaching all my children and nephews to arm-fart, a rather useful skill I think.

I would never actually fart at somebody intentionally or encourage others to do so. That would obviate years of arm-fart training.

We don't even know enough to talk to them intelligently.

We know the President has identified Iran as our enemy. That's all we have to understand about Iran. Now our job is to make them wish they had understood our resolve better.

"I thought Iraqis were Muslims?"

We need a foreign policy equivalent of the Prime Directive: Don't mess with cultures you don't know squat about.

Reading the article, it doesn't sound to me like the intelligence community is 'clueless'. It sounds like House Republicans would like to dismiss whatever accumulated knowledge they do have, in favor of new intelligence.

The idea that the House couldn't find enough accurate information about Iran for dialogue is simply not credible.

the report questioned whether the United States could even effectively engage in talks with Tehran on ways to diffuse tensions.

I am not buying it. This just gives the administration cover for their refusal to engage Iran diplomatically.

Years ago, my wife was a grad student at the Monterey Institute of International Studies, pretty much the top civilian translation and interpretation school in the US. She says the student body was almost entirely female, and many of the male students were gay (there were lots of men at the Defense Language Institute which is also in Monterey, but many of those students were assigned to learn a language, they weren't choosing translation as a career). I don't know why linguistics overwhelmingly attracts women and gay men; it's kind of the flip side of overwhelmingly male engineering schools.

That's just to say that it shouldn't be a surprise that purging gays from the military is going to take out a lot of gay men.

"We don't even know enough to talk to them intelligently."

With this Administration, that is true about every topic.

"I don't know why linguistics overwhelmingly attracts women and gay men; it's kind of the flip side of overwhelmingly male engineering schools."

Real men don't talk. They do.

The idea that the House couldn't find enough accurate information about Iran for dialogue is simply not credible.

I disagree. At least I find it very believable that, when it comes down to reliable information, we have little with regard to Iran's nuclear capabilities and potential. Probably a lot of speculation.

Look at what happened with Iraq. Whenever the Bush administration tried to present hard evidence (aluminum tubes, uranium from Africa), knowledgeable folks would immediately discredit them. Of course, a lot of Americans believed Bush anyway. We need to be smarter this time.

now we just need to figure out if they're willing to serve for the Bush administration

You got it backwards. The question is whether the administration would let them serve.

Americans are an ignorant lot - but that doesn't stop us from trying to ram our lifestyle down everyone in the world's throat. And we will pay and pay and pay for our ignorance....

That's just to say that it shouldn't be a surprise that purging gays from the military is going to take out a lot of gay men.

Which just shows how ridiculously counter-productive is the GWB admin's obsession with purging gays from the military.

If the GWB admin goal is to get rid of gays in the military, the better way is not to dishonorably discharge them, but instead to convert them.

The military should stop coddling gays in the linguistic corpes (talking is for chicks), and instead assign them to frontline duty -- they'd lose their gayness after their combination tenth kill, fifth rape....

Isn't Persian English for Farsi, like German is English for Deutsch?

Oh, duh.

I meant to say, in my comment above, that purging gays from the military is going to take out a lot of skilled linguists.

Ok, I'll stoop low enough to say I've had enough of this farcical discussion.

"Nonsense. We know a lot about Iran. For example we know Iran is funding and arming Islamofacists trying to stop the advance of democracy in Iraq."

As usual, Al, you present an eloquent case for knowing less, thinking less, and even doing less. Oh, right, labeling people and sneering is plenty for you, isn't it. What, nap time already? Well, your brain must be hurting by now.

By the way, would you like to take some time out from hating everybody to advance the cause of democracy in the USA? No, I didn't think so.

Noting "significant gaps in our knowledge and understanding of the various areas of concern about Iran...

For many years, the phrase "significant gaps"--notably in close proximity to "knowledge" or "data"--seems to occur with depressing frequency when it comes to intelligence and Iran.

Someone finally noticed. Again. I have my doubts that much will change.

One thing we know for certain about Iran: George Bush will drop bombs there if he thinks he can get away with it.

I think Persian is a more general term that includes Farsi.

The language selection tags on Ahmadinejad's blog shows it as "Farsi".

Persian is the English word for the language of Persia. Iran has for devious reasons of its own adopted an alias and decided not to answer to the name Persia. What gives Iranian Islamofascists the right to name their own language?

The wingnut reaction shouldn't suprise anyone. Same thing happened after I painfully explained the ideology of Fascism to rdw multiple times -- and his response was, well, you might be technically correct but you're a pencil-neck for saying it. And besides which, Islamofascism is *great term* to rile up the general public.

It's not even so much the blatantly contemptuous anti-intellectualism ... it's the idea that partial explanations are *better* than full explanations, because they make better propaganda.

This, my friends, is the slippery slope towards our very own American brand of Fascism.

Bob

I think the headline on the Jewish Telegraphic Agency piece hit the mark:

Committee: U.S. lacks Iran intelligence

Ross Best:

Is that, like, a *sincere* question?

Iran became Iran when it was a monarchy -- long before the Iranian Revolution.

"Persia" is also inaccurate, because territorially Iran encompasses regions in which the majority populations are not Persian.

Persian, properly speaking, is an ethnicity, not a language. As someone mentioned above, it is to Farsi as German is to Deutsch.

Bob

> Is that, like, a *sincere* question?

A sincere ironic question.

Had GWB asked the question, it would have been an ironic sincere question.

Ross Best:

Oh, okay. Whew.

*kicking sarcasameter*

There, that's better ...

Bob

> *kicking sarcasameter*

Sorry. I guess it would have been less ambiguous in Siamese.

Ross Best:

Or Farsi, for that matter ...

Bob

Ross Best:

And that's Thai to you, brother :)

Bob

little ole jim from red country-

I think we disagree less than it would seem.

I think we had ample information to pursue a policy course with Iraq - and we did, until we didn't. Muscling weapons inspectors back into Iraq to pursue leads was a wise approach. Our best information suggested that strategy, and it turned out that we were running some false positives in the intelligence community. (At which point we did the damn fool thing and attacked anyway.)

I think we have ample information to pursue a policy with Iran. By saying that we lack information to begin dialogue, we suggest that we can't evaluate the risk. By being unable to evaluate risk, the perception of risk is magnified.

In any event, we have ample information to dialogue. We make lack information to come to optimal terms with a percieved opponent, but we have ample information to dialogue.

Thomas1, I am what you would call a 'fag'. You are what I would call an ass, one that holds no attraction for me.

Keith G:

I think that was a parody Thomas, considering how the next 'fag' message trumpeted his own cowardice.

Bob

A tasteless parody then, a product of a small mind.

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syd + sydf = Iranian agents at work

Keigh G:

No argument there.

Bob

On a personal note, I find it amazing that we can’t find out more about what’s going on inside of Iran given:

1) How divided Iranian politics is. Surely there are people there who understand that the likelihood of this situation being blown sky high is greatly increased because of inadequate information. Many there hate the decisions made by the current regime.

2) The large Iranian ex-pat community here who maintain close ties to their home. I dated a guy whose family moved here in 1979. They wanted no part of the mullahs. Before 9/11, his parents, both doctors, frequently traveled back home. BTW they were not impressed by the “axis of evil” mentality. Anyway, I gather that as far as sources of information is concerned, it is a target rich environment.

W has a long history of making bad to stupid judgment calls. Iran will be no different. Look at how he blew the cover of our CIA operative re Iran WMD's to assuage his ego over yet another bad decision. He isn't qualified to even be on the world stage let alone be a major player. W is a major fucktard, and we will get into yet another boondoggle with needless death. The problem is, unlike when he was merely incompetent in the oil industry, there is no one who can bail him out (bail us out) of the giant mess.

"That's just to say that it shouldn't be a surprise that purging gays from the military is going to take out a lot of gay men."

That would work for American Hawk, since his endless posturing can only mean one thing: he would secretly like to take out a lot of gay men.

I'm thinking Hawk would make a workable bear cub, probably on a leash.

Purging gay Arabic/Farsi translators from the military is certainly a data point demonstrating how unserious this administration is about the War on Terra.

If you actually thought this was a "fight to the death", wouldn't you marshal all your resources against the threat of "Islamo-whatever"? Of course you would. The fact that they feel that these translators are expendable just shows that they're still willing to engage in electoral base-pandering over actual terror-combating.

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We don't even know enough to talk to them intelligently.

Lets see, Condi Rice is Secretary of State, Donald Rumsfeld is Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney is Vice President, and,of course, GWB is President. They are loyal devotees of the know nothing neo-cons. Hummm.

I am not sure those guys know enough to talk to anyone about anything intelligently.

I've been wondering about the purging of gay translators from the military. I recall that one we recently outed, anonymously.
Given our need for reliable and timely intelligence, is it not possible that by outing such people, the outers are in fact providing aid and comfort to US enemies? (Assuming of course that Al Qaeda, Iran, and various Islamist extremist organizations can be defined as US enemies.)

So we've apparently got a lot of people who hate gays more than they love their country?
What's up with that?

Or is it maybe deliberate? Perhaps the outing of V. Plame and Brewster-Jennings(not for gay reasons of course) was NOT a politically motivated hit-by-proxy, but rather a deliberated step to diminish our intelligence gatehring and analysis abilities vis-a-vis Iran and violent Islamist organizations.

I mean, how is it possible to fuck up that badly, accidentally?

The State Department has it's own Iran desk. They may know what they're doing now that Plame and Johson are gone.

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