I can't think of any conservative worth arguing with anymore after what they've done to this country. F them.

Bravo, those are on my ignore list. And how about lesser known religious wild man Hal Lindsay?

Michael Savage is worse than those you cited.

Glenn Reynolds and Marc Steyn clearly belong on that list as well. And I'm sure we could go on and on. A more interesting list would be which conservative commentators are actually worth responding to? Ross Douthat certainly, probably John Derbyshire, maybe Steve Sailer - funnily enough paleocon types seem to have become the reasonable wing of the conservative movement.

These are stictly personal choices, of course, and I mentioned a few days ago that Ann Coulter is one of them. David Horowitz is the second.

They aren't any crazier than the leftists Michael Moore, Ned Lamont, and Screaming Howard Dean.

Hannity. Rush. Malkin. That creepy Atlas Shrugs lady. Etc.

This list would grow infinitely long if you really tried to make it comprehensive. A better question is which conservative commentators should not be on your blacklist. Will, Brooks, Tierney, Lowery and Ponnuru are a few that come to mind - not to say that these guys aren't prone to writing ridiculous things much or most of the time, but I at least give them credit for wanting to engage in an honest debate about the issues.

Don't forget Walter Williams who, while you were gone, advocated nuking the whole Mid East. See Greenwald last week, or read the weird Williams column yourself.

I'm confused by Weigel's link from "very smart people" to a post by John Derbyshire on the Corner. It doesn't seem that Weigel is being sarcastic.

140% in 3 years is a 11.9% annual interest rate, while 238% in 10 years is a 9% annual interest rate. While the total is impressive, neither of the annualized rates are that amazing.

Whichever Al posted:

Moore certainly qualifies as left-wing. The other two are moderate-liberal Democrats. You have to be extremely far into the reactionary fringe of the right wing to think that Lamont and Dean are crazy liberals.

Oops, sorry! Wrong Post!

BoBo?

No fucking way. He's worse IMHO than Michael Savage or Ann Coulter, because of that insufferably "reasonable" academic tone of his.

And he was trained as a sociologist. I mean -- don't wingnuts have it out for the entire field of sociology?

So he's developed this absurdly overinflated rep as "the liberal's favorite conservative" which I think is utter posh.

He gets going on his exurban moral-values demographic hobbyhorse of his, and he's like rdw after being shot with an elephant dart filled with Thorazine.

And that *thing* of his, so *desperately* wanting to be *like Thomas Friedman* and find the *next cutesy name* for a TREND ... it's like he goes to bed every night and sticks himself with a secret pincushion leaving invisible scars for having missed the chance to nail "Yuppie."

See ... see ... it's gotta be a *wealthy* demographic, so I can mirror them so flatteringly/facetiously (it's all in love) that THEY CAN BUY MANY COPIES OF MY BOOK. Dammit, I thought Bohemian Bourgeoisie was so so damn clever. It had *everything* -- the perfect frivolous demographic, *plus* a name cute enough to rival the Olson Twins -- BoBo !

And it ... never caught on. *sniff* *sniff*.

Gods I am *so* glad I never picked up TimesReject.

Bob

It's not Al's fault. When one is that far to the right, asking him to distinguish mainstream liberals like Lamont from people on the far left like Michael Moore is like asking someone to look into the night sky and identify which of two stars is farther away.

Kurtz is silly a lot. Certainly not Coulter-level, though. And it seems Weigel is ignoring that the likelihood of a nuclear exchange is part of the dangerousness of a cold war, not just the number of threatening warheads. Kurtz could have written his point better, but Weigel could have read it better, too.

N.B.: BoBo = David Brooks

But how does this square with Kevin's post a few weeks ago when he said that every time conservatives try to say that opposition to the war in Iraq is opposition to the war on terror, or that opposition to the war is aiding our enemies. We have to call them on it every single time.

I agree that trying to engage Ann Coulter in a debate is like wrestling with the pigs in the mud, and that vilifying her is simply following her script. But rather than ignoring her, I think we should respond with laughter. Same with Limbaugh and Horowitz.

Saw Kurtz's column earlier today and was pretty stunned. What are they smoking?

I do think the more interesting question is "to which conservatives should liberals pay attention?" For the most part I haven't heard any of them say anything moderately worth while in several years. Frankly most of them are as ideologically blinded as the worst Marxist and just about as interesting.

Vanya - Glenn Reynolds is not a conservative. He was a campaign worker for Al Gore. Reynolds is more or less a libertarian.

David Horowitz was trained by the Communists to debate effectively, although not always fairly. He maintained those skills when he changed his political views from left to right.

...it seems Weigel is ignoring that the likelihood of a nuclear exchange is part of the dangerousness of a cold war, not just the number of threatening warheads.

I'm not ignoring it. Kurtz deliberately evokes the age of fallout shelters and "duck and cover," during which time the USA and Soviet Union came very close to nuclear war. (Think October 1962.) His likely scenario for a nuclear exchange in Cold War II: This Time It's Arabs is a Middle East state getting embroiled in a conventional war and deciding, what the hell, let's fling a nuke at Kurtz's house. Kurtz just doesn't come up with a convincing scenario for a "likely" nuclear exchange.

ex-liberal,

You are joking, right? Reynolds has become one of the most reliable mouthpieces for the GOP this side of Hewitt. Whatever his politics may have been pre 9/11, he now has not a shred of libertarian credibility left to wear.

I nominate Michelle Malkin for the list.

I really wish you'd add Sullivan to that list, Kevin. Krauthammer, too. Or Limbaugh.

But here's the problem with just ignoring a lot of those screamers. Millions of people read, listen or watch their propaganda - and believe it. And lots of equally nutty folks are in Congress and elsewhere in government. And right wing organizations spend millions of dollars a year to train the next generation of propagandists.

So reasonable people have to come up with a response to them. My personal suggestion is that going equally hysterical back is not it. Coldly exposing how they are misleading - and why they are doing so is the way to go. But that's hard - because websites are not where most people get their info.

But pushback has to happen or we as a soceity will be the losers. Look at how much America has just lost over the last 6 years.

my don't-ignore list would be much shorter.

Ah, yes, I remember the "Ignore List" ; )

Of course you do, Charlie.

You are joking, right? Reynolds has become one of the most reliable mouthpieces for the GOP this side of Hewitt. Whatever his politics may have been pre 9/11, he now has not a shred of libertarian credibility left to wear.

Well, "ex-liberal" has not a shred of credibility of any kind, so this latest dishonesty from him/her/it is hardly surprising.

Among Corner posters, Mark Levin is far and away worse than Kurtz. I think maybe they gave him his own blog because his posts were just getting too embarrassing even for them.

.I'm usually willing to take on any conservative commentator if he or she happens to say something that I feel like arguing with.

Who are your favorite conservative commentators. My favorite is George Will. I think his anti-Republican Congress and anti-Bush articles have been the best written and most influential.

I agree with him about a third of the time. I thought that he was wrong on the Kelo and Schiavo cases.

Who are the liberal commentators that you ignore? I nominate Robert Scheer, Paul Krugman and Noam Chomsky.

It's all Ronnie RayGun's fault! When he started throwing the crazies out on the street they became Right-Wing pundits!

Recognizing that conservatism is a form of mental illness, you never, ever argue with a crazy person.

I can see how those who disagree with Krugman may despise him, but you'd have a really tough time sticking him with the label "unserious" or "insane".

Kevin,

I'm surprised at your reaction. Kurtz is laying out an alternative to preemptive war against Iran; I would have thought you'd be pleased.

In any event, it's hard to argue with his suggestion that now would be the right time to construct a multi-layered missile defense system. Read the op-ed in today's WSJ for an outline of how to do that. Put a few thousand "brilliant pebbles" satellites into low earth orbit to hit rockets in the boost phase; add sea based defenses for cruise missiles and short range missiles; and keep a few land-based systems for whatever makes it through. Presto, we can stop worrying about Iranian or North Korean nukes. All for a lot less than the cost of a preemptive war.

An added benefit would be that we could offer the same technology to the Israelis to counter the Hezbollah and Hamas (and Iranian and Syrian) missiles. That would greatly reduce the likelihood of another war like the one we just had.

Oh, yeah- if you are going to object that an anti-missile system won't defend against nukes in the hands of suicide terrorists - YOU'RE RIGHT. The only way to stop jihadists from using nukes against the US is to keep them from getting nukes; and, alas, it appears that you don't want to do anything serious about that, or at least have given up hope of doing anything about it. If I'm wrong about that, correct me.

'Who are the liberal commentators that you ignore? I nominate Robert Scheer, Paul Krugman and Noam Chomsky.'
--republicrat

Well, of course. All of those gentlemen are far too intelligent and erudite, to be read by the average knuckle-draggin' freeper. That edykayshun must be downright frightenin' to them simple-minded country folk!!

All of those gentlemen are far too intelligent and erudite, to be read by the average knuckle-draggin' freeper.

I read Chomsky's scientific papers and books (not all of them), but when he writes on public policy he lies all the time and frequently contradicts his previous writings (and speeches) while denying that he is doing so. Krugman gets a lot of mileage out of being a college professor, but when he writes on public policy he omits whatever disagrees with his point of the moment: they are like narrow, anti-Republican lawyers' briefs, which wouldn't be bad coming from a narrow, anti-Republican lawyer instead of a disinterested seeker after knowledge, as he professes to be.

To balance my earliers comments, the liberals I read most commonly are Joshua Michael Marshall and Kevin Drum. Rightwingers I ignore are National Review Online (and print, for that matter) and Free Republic.

oops, that's Joshua Micah Marshall. Sorry Josh.

(we used to correspond)

You know, it's fascinating that the screaming lefties Al comes up witch, not one of them has a regular media presence?
Moore, Lamont, Dean--None of them have so much as a syndicated newspaper column.
Yep, the media sure has a liberal bias when the main liberal apostles have no voice in that media.
Even the second group of Krugman, Scheer and Chomsky--what TV shows are the latter two regulars on? Where are their regular columns?
It was summed up for me when Anny lamented "You can't attack [the Jersey Girls!" even as she attacked them on the Today Show. And when even Matt Lauer had to point that out, she waxed indignant.
Yep, the media has become more and more partisan in the lst few years. Which is all the more interesting, considering that only one side has the microphones.

Ah, yes: Paul Krugman - that former Reagan economist (that's right), who has been regarded by many as the formost expert on world trade. (Just how do you think he got to Priceton or the NY Times?) So he is really a different animal than Chomsky (republicrat is right on that score) or Sheer (read Kevin's archival rants on him; Kevin is right). Krugman got radicalized by Bush. Go read his essays from, say, 2002: Every word he wrote STILL holds up. He had Bush pegged earlier than just about anyone, on any part of the polical spectrum.

And don't discount Sullivan. While he's foolish on economic issues, he has emerged as a more forceful critic of Bush than just about any liberal commentator at this time, no small accomplishment or conversion.

Kevin, you celebrities must remember that there are no rules in a knife fight.

republicrat wrote: "I read Chomsky's scientific papers and books (not all of them), but when he writes on public policy he lies all the time and frequently contradicts his previous writings (and speeches) while denying that he is doing so."

That's bullshit. Give one single example of Chomsky "lying" or "contradicting" previous statements and then "denying that he is doing so." One example. You won't, because you can't, because there are no such examples.

You already had zero credibility in this forum. Looks like you are going for subzero.

Michael Savage is worse than those you cited.
Posted by: Disputo on August 28, 2006 at 1:46 PM | PERMALINK

Disputo - why do you insist on using Doctor Savage's nom-de-puke?

Please use his REAL name: Michael Weiner.

I called into his show last year, and called him Dr. Weiner. Man, that 5-second delay is a bitch!

You already had zero credibility in this forum. Looks like you are going for subzero.

I'm so hurt. Even after posting links to the journal Science?

At the onset of American bombing in Afghanistan Chomsky wrote about the "silent genocide" of Afghan refugees that was already "in progress". No such genocide ever occurred, and he later claimed that he had merely said such a think might happen. He denied that the VietCong were associated with the NVA, and he denied that the North wanted to conquer the South. He denied that Pol Pot was a communist, and he denied the Cambodian holocaust.

"that former Reagan economist (that's right)"

He was just a young CEA staff economist in a relatively apolitical position, and was a Democrat. It's not like he was a White House pick or anything.

While a professed liberal, Krugman used to go after bad ideas on both sides of the spectrum in his books and online columns. I really don't think he's changed, it's just that the only bad ideas getting traction these days belong to the GOP.

It's also worth mentioning that he was 100% right about Bush from jump, starting with Campaign 2000. He seems to have acquired a reputation for being "shrill" as a result, but those old columns seem prescient these days.

Will - point well taken. But it's also true that Krugman was enough of a centrist, and the Reagan administration open enough, to allow his appointment. We don't have that anymore. (I forget which prominent Republican economist hired him in '82, someone big and credible. Do you remember?) Different times, eh?

Note Andrew Sullivan has a special award for Michelle Malkin.

It seems the correct statement for liberals would be: Anyone I disagree with (a troll) is on my "ignore list".

Bob: you actually made me laugh as you nailed Brooks. He is insufferable.

"Presto, we can stop worrying about Iranian or North Korean nukes."

We can also do our magic anti-missile dance and wave our magic wands and it will be every bit as effective (and a hell of a lot cheaper) than the fairy-tale system you're proposing.

"Don't forget Walter Williams who, while you were gone, advocated nuking the whole Mid East."

I think if we just destroyed the mosques, we'd solve 80% of the problem.

Sully got one thing wrong: Calling Derbyshire a "very smart person." He's in the same neighborhood as Kurtz.

And Sailer would go on my iggy list, as well as any blind supporter of his, including a would-be girlfriend a few years back who swore that "The Bell Curve" was spot-on and could all be evolutionarily proved.

"Who are the liberal commentators that you ignore? I nominate Robert Scheer, Paul Krugman and Noam Chomsky."

Conservatives don't ignore people they disagree with, they fisk them. I believe this, stick your head in the sand is a trademark liberal practice.

"And Sailer would go on my iggy list, as well as any blind supporter of his, including a would-be girlfriend a few years back who swore that "The Bell Curve" was spot-on and could all be evolutionarily proved."

It's funny how liberals have no problem with citing IQ scores are higher in girls vs boys, but all of a sudden IQ scores are invalid when race is factored in.

I believe this, stick your head in the sand is a trademark liberal practice.
Posted by: Freedom Fighter on August 28, 2006 at 4:40 PM | PERMALINK

Oh - so that's why I kept on getting banned at LGF and New Republic!

IIRC - It was Charlie who first brought the concept of an "ignore list" to Calpundit.

(charlie: waaah! nobody's paying attention to me or answering my stupid rhetorical questions, I'm going to ignore them and keep babbling like a monkey on crystal meth!)

It's funny how liberals have no problem with citing IQ scores are higher in girls vs boys

i don't think i've ever 'cited' such a thing in my life. care to rephrase ?

"That's bullshit. Give one single example of Chomsky "lying" or "contradicting" previous statements and then "denying that he is doing so." One example. You won't, because you can't, because there are no such examples."
--SecularAnimist

What do you think of this?:

http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm

I'm not really a Chomsky supporter or hater... I'm just very wary of reading his books and essays. Not a trustworthy source, in my opinion.

"i don't think i've ever 'cited' such a thing in my life. care to rephrase ?"

I wasn't talking about you in particular. Just that in general, liberals have a double standard when it comes to differences within identity groups.

Who needs anti-missile wands when the only nations in the middle east capable of lobbing a missile a quarter of the way around the globe is Israel and India?

The rest can barely reach each other.

And you're worried about nukes?

They won't use nukes because that would damage holy sites and drop fallout onto themselves. Iran probably isn't even close to developing nuclear bombs - and may not even be trying, as none of the fuel they're produced does anything but run reactors.

And really, why do we need to make Pres. Ahkmad right about the west trying to subjegate his country by insisting that they not have advanced technologies?

Now if only the big media outlets would adopt this "Ignore List". Can you imagine what Coulter would be saying if she were being shunned.
America's Least Wanted

Secular Animist, I even posted a short note that referred to one of your posts containing a link to and energy plan for the USA: Winning the Oil Endgame.

I believe that I myself was the first to link to Winning the Oil Endgame here some months ago.

Freedom Fighter: Conservatives don't ignore people they disagree with, they fisk them. I believe this, stick your head in the sand is a trademark liberal practice.

the problem is that there is not enough time to read and fisk everybody. I skip Coulter because she always goes beyond the bounds of what's informative, so my time is better spent elsewhere. She always exceeds what a swing voter can tolerate.

Just that in general, liberals have a double standard when it comes to differences within identity groups.
Posted by: Freedom Fighter

well, freedom fighter, the problem is that studies showing IQ discrepancy by race are invariably performed by the selfsame white males who have already been shown to have deficient IQs (relative to women, at least).

I might be inclined to take these IQ test results more seriously were the studies NOT performed by insecure, ignorant, racist white males, and instead by ... say ... disinterested southeast asian females. who happen to be buddhist.

Will,

exactly - the Republican party is the party of ideas, they just happen to all be bad ideas.

For fifty years of cold war, a group of "FGotta love first strikers. If only we'd listened to them during the Cold War...

Kevin Drum just made my ignore list (I swear, right after this post)

Anyone ever listen to Neil Boortz? Probably not. He'x the Flat Tax advocate.

Derbyshire is actually extremely smart; he wrote a book on Mersenne primes, which I can't even begin to understand. His recent NRO article arguing *against* Bush's conception of the War on Terror, and his dissection of Ponnuru's book, were both excellent. He's also very blunt about calling intelligent design unscientific bullshit. I've never thought of him as a propagandist, unlike most of NRO's writers. He's most definitely a crazy paleocon bigot, but that doesn't make him stupid.

He does, however, take Steve Sailer too seriously, which is disappointing. Even if Sailer was 100% right about IQ and race, it wouldn't make him anything other than a self-satisfied white supremacist whose "scientific" work is simply an attempt to push eugenics and race-based policies. And, I suspect, a bitter man who blames his failures on others and cites his own genetic superiority as proof.

That's bullshit. Give one single example of Chomsky "lying" or "contradicting" previous statements...

I consider Secular Animist a spiritual friend and a generally responsible debater but I disagree about Chomsky. In my opinion Chomsky came off the rails, not unlike Ralph Nader.

But for republicrat, who rivals David Brooks for insufferability, to impugn Krugman without a shred of evidence is absurd.

You're a two-bit imposter posing as a reasonable person, republicrat.

As others have accurately noted, Krugman was assiduously centrist, freely critical of Clinton in those days, until Bush came to town on a mission to dismantle the New Deal and work mayhem at home and abroad. It is the effectiveness of Krugman's writing that causes many on the right to dismiss him, lacking as they do the grasp of information and the facility with language Krugman possesses.

shorter Freedom Fighter:

I wasn't talking about anyone real; I was refering to that strawman liberal that chases me down and rapes me in my dreams.

Vanya, Glen Reynolds is split.

-- He pretty much agrees with the pubbies on the war.

-- Regarding government spending, his strong positon against earmarks doesn't agree with either party.

-- He supports the Dem position on just about all social and scientific issues, such as stem cell research, ID, gay marriage, etc.

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Frankly, Mark Levin is worse than Stanley Kurtz. Not only is he intellectually dishonest, but he is a mean-spirted little punk. Just an absolute weasel. John Podhertz ain't far behind him either.

shorter Freedom Fighter:

I wasn't talking about anyone real; I was refering to that strawman liberal that chases me down and rapes me in my dreams.

LOL, let's save this one for the "best of" WM comments.

Embarrassing as hell that none other than Freedom Fighter used a term of which I'm unfamiliar, but ...

What is the meaning of the transitive verb: to "fisk"?

Does that have anything to do with Robert Fisk, the intrepid foreign journalist?

Thankie,

Bob

Please put Terry Jeffrey on your list.

rmck1, in the first several months after the September 11th attacks (late 2001/early 2002), when Bush was very popular and most Americans thought the war in Afghanistan was a justified response to a direct attack, Fisk was a vehement critic of the war and of American foreign policy in general. This got him a lot of mockery across the US political spectrum. "Fisking" was a term invented by warbloggers for the practice of line-by-line intensive mockery of an article, since they did it to Fisk's columns so often.

In hindsight, Fisk probably didn't deserve it. I don't think I agree now with everything he said back then, but at least he had some firsthand experience of what was going on over there, unlike most of his critics, and he certainly smelled the general fishiness of Bush foreign policy early on.

"They aren't any crazier than the leftists Michael Moore, Ned Lamont, and Screaming Howard Dean."

Sorry, Al, just sayin' it don't make it so -- or you would have left your mother's basement years ago. The trhree you've cited have all accomplished difficult things in several areas.

What has David Horowitz ever done except blow himself in public?

I don't know Thomas Sowell, but I know a bit about Dorothy Parker. I can't imagine how a sane person could compare her with Ann Coulter, so, just for entertainment, gimme the link!

The refusal to comment on any of these idiots is in itself idiotic. Maybe Kevin (and the majority of the rest of you in the comments) should realize that your failure to state the truth when these people lie simply propagates the lies. Coulter sells millions of books - many many people hang on what she says, and believe the crap she spews. How the fuck are we supposed to change those people's minds if we refuse to say that what Coulter says is full of shit?

See Somerby:

As a simple matter of progressive politics, average people deserve to be told when they’re being played by a major public figure. (We were raised by average people. We’re offended when we see average people get played.) It’s true—some people won’t respond to such efforts. But then, on the other hand, some people will. But our high-minded priests have their heads in the clouds. They’re too fine, too haughty, too special, too pure, to dirty their hands on affairs of this world. Why would we bother to comment on Coulter! Because her message is getting out? Because she’s been changing the world?

We’ve told you for years, and you all now see it. One side will fight—and the other side won’t. Their side won’t stop saying things which are false; our side refuses to say what is true. (We refuse to speak as a matter of principle!) Their side is stumping all over the country. We’re in the OC, taking in Jeopardy. Why would we bother to comment on Coulter? Because we care about things of the world? Because Coulterism is driving debate—and because Coulterism is phony?

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh081806.shtml

"The refusal to comment on any of these idiots is in itself idiotic. Maybe Kevin (and the majority of the rest of you in the comments) should realize that your failure to state the truth when these people lie simply propagates the lies. Coulter sells millions of books - many many people hang on what she says, and believe the crap she spews. How the fuck are we supposed to change those people's minds if we refuse to say that what Coulter says is full of shit?"

I see your point. Those highly amplified voices shouldn't be left standing unopposed. But I can see Kevin's side, too, that correcting the mindboggling spin coming from these sources is a work close to that of Sysiphos, or, mayne more fittingly, Augias...
Yup, it's a hell of a job, but someone has to do it. But who?

I agree, I've had to be more careful myself as I have 'Coultered' articles or at least information with out due credit in emails and such...

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