Wrong again, Kevin. Wal-Mart has transformed the U.S. econmy from one based on small mom-n-pops that fleece poor people by overcharging for toothpaste to one in which lower everyday prices have made eveyone rich--just look at flat panel TV sales! Wal-Mart is the ultimate expression of the human potential and Sam will be treated like Jesus many years from now. All hail Wal-Mart bringer of light (bulbs), giver of life(-style magazines), and friend of children(s toys)!!!

> They aren't, any more than ordinary
> human beings are evil.

Well, according to many evangelicals, Christians in general, and Republicans, human beings ARE by nature evil and that evil must be tightly controlled at all times. The current mania for controlling female sexuality is only an extreme example; their philosophy contains many warnings about the innate evil of man.

So, since we now live in the Radical Republic and are governed by fundamentalists, why can't we assume that corporations are evil as well as their human prototypes?

Cranky

You really are just a bad joke, aren't you Al? Whether a liberal attempting satire or a stunningly unimaginative conservative shill, you're a witless failure.

it's foolish to paint Wal-Mart or the broader business community as "evil." They aren't, any more than ordinary human beings are evil. It's just that, left to their own devices, both humans and corporations tend to act solely in their own self-interest. That's why we have laws to control human behavior, and it's why we need laws and regulations to control corporate behavior.

nicely put.

Al... really, honestly, your schtick is boring.

The main problem, it seems to me, is that the Washington press has an extremely odd definition of what it means to be moderate---just as the Washington press has an extremely odd definition of objectivity, but that's a different kvetch.

By Washington press standards, a moderate must be someone whose views are midway between two arbitrarily chosen extremes. Moderation by this standards is a state of mind or a tactical act of positioning, not a coherent set of principles.

I find the Washington press's version of objectivity an entirely worthless goal to strive for. Their version of moderation is equally worthless. The fact that they bestow that label as a compliment, and almost universally fail to explain why they mean when they call someone a moderate, says something quite bad about Washington press habits.

I'd agree corportaions aren't per se "evil", but the single minded pursuit of self interest inevitably leads to evil results. There is essentially no morality or ethics mediating this pursuit. They're not purposefully trying to harm, but have no restrictions on doing so.
Of course, this also applies to individuals, but individuals generally have a conscience, and in any case, society recognizes that personal behavior needs to be regulated to some extent.
The pure free market corporation idea doesn't recognize this. It's much more of a raw evolution thesis, the strong survive, by whatever means. People, not being corporations (although corporations are "persons"), simply don't figure into the corporate construct.

Wal-Mart will stop being a Democratic whipping boy the second they unionize. Follow the dues money.

No, Kevin, Wal-Mart IS evil. It is not your average corporation. Its business model is to rape and pillage america. Most corporations don't do that.

If you've seen the movie "The Corporation," you'd know that, if you ascribed the characteristics of your typical multination corporation to an individual, you'd have a sociopath.

I agree with this --

The Bush adminstration is been run by people who are convinced that they should make the masses believe that government is an evil. They install incompetence at every level, precisely so that the display of their own government incompetence vindicates their ideology. Meanwhile, they proceed to loot the public treasury at every level.

Who would not be irate at seeing this kind of self-serving behavior, moderate or no?

You are just another reactionary, Kevin. Sadly, this post is inept and bereft of scientific analysis.
"Of course moderates are pissed. Of course they've changed their views. They'd be nuts not to."
...Riiiiiiiight...they (and we) would all be 'nuts' not to interpret things like you, view things like you, and react to things like you. Nuts? Gimme a break.
All I hear from you is bias and the tired conclusions of 1. Bush is an idiot! 2. More laws, more laws! 3. Don't ever criticize those who complain about society! You just don't get it!
(You don't just disagree with Mallaby...he is simply 'unable to figure that out'....so he's an idiot too, ay?
Piss off

Go figure, 120 years after the social bottoming out of the Industrial Revolution and Laissez Faire Capitalism and 70 years after the beginning of the Great Depression we once again discover that slavish devotion to the idea od the Free Market primarily benefits those that have capital at the expense of those that don't.

And we all forgot about this because of ......

Kevin wrote: "It's because moderates should be irate over the events of the past decade. People like Mallaby seem unable to figure that out,"

People like Mallaby are bought-and-paid-for shills for the corporatocracy, and it's their job to be "unable to figure that out."

It is a rich irony that the country that pioneered the textbook and middle-class literacy, as well as built many of the world's great universities, did so with the blessing and endowment of our great industrial magnates. You may fault Carnegie, Morgan and Ford for attempting to engineer workers suited to their technical needs, but what is the legacy of today's corporate leaders -- "No Child Left a Dime?" What happened to that United Technology CEO that promised making PhDs for all the national priority?

bj, I must say that that post of yours is certainly full of of "scientific analysis." You sure let Kevin have it, and I'm impressed by your command of all that contrasting data. But maybe next time if you just want to save time you could just utlize by teenager's favorite form of argument:

"Whatever, nuh-uh."

That's why we have laws to control human behavior, and it's why we need laws and regulations to control corporate behavior. I prefer a society in which people don't gun each other down in the streets, and I also prefer a society in which middle class workers prosper when the economy grows. I support laws that encourage both.

Kevin, this is a gem. In simple and easy to understand language, it explains a core element of Democratic ideology while at the same time highlighting the hypocritical conflict in Republican ideology (whereby they want to impose their repressive religious morality on individuals through regulation while at the same time giving corporations virtually free reign to lie cheat and steal, damn the consequences). Bravo!

Excellent posting, Squire Drum. I read Mallaby's column this morning, and the only sense I could make if it was that he had decided to accept clandestine funding from Walmart. Either that or, desperate for this week's column he had reprinted a Walmart PR release. I believe Mallaby is/was a Brit. If this is the case then, as a Brit, I apologize profusely to the American public for Mallaby's appalling bad manners in visiting this chortling claptrap upon you, our translatlantic cousins.
Chin up, what what?

Hmmm now let me think. American Automobile industry, Heavily unionized, Overpriced unaffordable cars, I can't afford to buy a new car. Walmart, no union, low prices, I can afford to shop there. Duh

Every time I read a policy paper or hear a commercial from Wal-Mart I always wonder at what price are we paying for this?

What century are we in, again?

I don't understand why education, safety, and liberty - pursuit of the American Dream? - are supposed to be luxuries rather than necessecities.

you can buy a car at walmart? is it a special invisible car that only dumb-fucks can see?

Wal-Mart is doing what Sears-Roebuck did before: reducing the costs of merchandise.

You can make people richer by reducing the costs of what they buy, or by giving them more money. Generally, the former works better, and the latter causes inflation without increasing material wealth; but lots of people feel better by getting wage increases than they do by having costs decline.

Ford made Americans richer by cutting the labor costs of automobiles. There is a legend that he succeeded by paying his workers enough to buy cars, but most of his workers couldn't afford them for a long time, and most purchasers had lots more money than Ford workers. He drove the "mom and pop" automakers out of business; they had to find new jobs, but America was considerably richer in the supply of automobiles, even though the automobiles were cheaper.

"humans . . . tend to act solely in their own self-interest"

Kevin, I hope this was just an off-the-cuff gaff. Humans aren't like that, in general. We humans frequently, and quite naturally, act in the communal interest. Our problem now is to help people see that their community is the planet Earth, and not just their family, tribe, or even nation.

We better figure this out soon, too - global warming and the spread of easy access to terrible weapons make it imperative.

Hmmm now let me think. American Automobile industry, Heavily unionized, Overpriced unaffordable cars, I can't afford to buy a new car. Walmart, no union, low prices, I can afford to shop there. Duh

Huh. What are the lower priced alternatives? Honda, Toyota, Nissan all have unionized factories in the US.

How about other retailers? Costco is unionized. Target has many relations with unions.

Gee, funny how unions have no bearing on the affordability of products!

And gosh, who can afford anything at Wal-Mart? They steal from the government to feed, clothe, and care for their sick. They fire employees for following the law, and fire employees for not donating extra labor to the company. They have a policy of ripping off their staff. They have a health plan with a deductable larger than the average monthly income of an associate.

[b]Would you think you were getting such a good value [/b](Either from Wal-Mart or the Republican Administration)[b] if you could see their hands in your pockets?[/b]

Let's try this with proper markups:

Would you think you were getting such a good value (Either from Wal-Mart or the Republican Administration) if you could see their hands in your pockets?

He drove the "mom and pop" automakers out of business; they had to find new jobs,

Who? Wha?

...Wait, wasn't Ford also the guy who boasted that his employees could afford to buy a car (a luxury at the time) with their paychecks, as well as take care of their families?

The other thing you can buy cheaper at WalMart is Republicans.

Hmmm now let me think. American Automobile industry, Heavily unionized, Overpriced unaffordable cars ...

the chevy aveo starts at less than $10,000.

Can we ban this Ishmael guy, please?

The column is about Wal-Mart, and Mallaby is complaining that although moderate Dems got out of the corporation-bashing business in the late 80s, they've since lost the religion. Every single moderate Dem — even Joe Lieberman! — is now bashing Wal-Mart. "How can supposedly centrist Democrats defend this betrayal of their principles?" he asks sadly.

Wait, accepting the apparent premise that changes of established behavior of a group of politicians per se constitute abandonment of principles, wouldn't the late 80s be where the principles were abandoned by moderate Democrats, and the current change be simply a return to principles?

See the evils committed by filthy,zionist kikes; go to www.holywar.org

One land and one people.White,christian and pure...
No compromise ! Kill and be killed until victory !

I have no problem using Wal-Mart as an example of problems that are typical of all retailers and of our country's health insurance system in general, but, honestly speaking, its policies aren't really that different from any other major retailer. The differences between its policies and those of Target, which is often held up as an example of something that Wal-Mart should aspire to be like, are miniscule. If I gave you a stat sheet with things like wages and health plan options for each company with the company name removed, I doubt you'd be able to tell which one was Wal-Mart and which one was Target.

CostCo is better than either of the two on wages/benefits, of course, but CostCo is a also a different type of animal than Target or Wal-Mart. CostCo employs fewer people per revenue dollar than either Target or Wal-Mart - that is part of the warehouse, bulk-product business model employs. It takes fewer employees to run a CostCo store than a Wal-Mart or Target. CostCo puts some of the labor savings back into the employees it does have in the form of better wages/benefits; Wal-Mart/Target hire more, but pay them less. A fair comparison of the two models will take into account not only the wages/benefits each pays, but also the fact that the CostCo pays wages/benefits to fewer people than a comparable Wal-Mart or Target.

Whoa,even I don't go that far Nephi.You just crossed the line .

Ishmael shut your infidel yap,your a traitor to our Christian forefathers and the founders of our Nation.

Ishmael needs a good BJ!

I worked part-time at Wal-Mart for just over 5 years and I invariably followed saying "Wal-Mart" with "The greedy evil bastards" for that is just what the entire company philosophy entails. I worked in the garden center of a supercenter and, luckily, was pretty much left alone to do my job, but that was not true for most other employees. Starting pay in my area is around $6.50/hr and the employee turnover normally hovers around 68%. That never sounded terribly efficient to me, but what I never understood was the tremendous waste that occurred throughout the store. You absolutely would not believe the goods and store fixtures which were simply written off for accounting purposes and put in the trash compacter. I don't even want to go into the dearth of health benefits or, for that matter, any other benefits.

Here's an example: If I were sick one day and felt I needed to stay home and recover but go back to work the next day I could not get paid for a sick day. If I took 2 days off and came back with a doctor's excuse then I could get paid.

When discussing Wal-Mart you only to remember 3 little words: "Greedy Evil Bastards".

'nuff said.

Two identical companies - resources, market share, talent, innovation, everything equal, except:

One is totally ethical while the other is totally masterful at concealing the unethical (never gets caught). The advantage in the free market goes to? That's right kids, it's #2.

Our system selects for the most cleverly sleazy.

Here are just a few problems with Wal-Mart:
• Wal-Mart fails to cover 60% of their workers with any health insurance.
• 70% of Wal-Mart merchandise is from China (real patriotic, Sam).
• When Wal-Mart comes into a town, for every two jobs it creates three jobs are lost.
• Wal-Mart costs federal taxpayers over $1.5 billion a year in welfare to their employees.
• Wal-Mart tops the list of companies with employees and their dependents on public assistance in at least 11 states.
• Wal-Mart has agreed to pay $4.1 million in Clean Water Act violations and $50 million to settle allegations of underpaying employees.
• Wal-Mart’s former No. 2 executive is accused of stealing $500,000.
So, in summary, Wal-Mart sells shoddy goods made by slave labor in China that helps prop up a Communist regime, they routinely underpay employees and destroy jobs not create them and enable welfare use, and have corrupt executives who pollute the environment, but:
Ain’t “free enterprise” a wonderful thing????

The funny thing is the the Democratic Party has by and large been to scared of being called "liberal" to go back to its roots of being the party of the working man (and woman).

There are a lot of people out there who are less than thrilled not only with their stagnant wages, but also with the way that the balance of power between corporation and consumer has shifted heavily in favor of the corporation, leading to atrocities such as what the insurance companies are trying to do to people whose lives were destroyed by Katrina, and the corruption that has turned the federal budget into a corporate piggy bank.

For many years the Democrats have been scared to death of engaging in class warfare because many of their supporters are wealthy liberals, but the truth is that its about time for the Democratic Party to reengage in some class warfare and win back the votes of the many working class people who have been voting Republican because of social issues.

Based on economic disparity alone, the Democrats should be getting the vote of everyone making less than $50,000 a year. Yet thousands of these people have been voting Republican because the Democrats have been unsuccessful in keeping the agenda focused on economic issues.

I don't quite understand the obsession with WalMart. Is it WalMart as such or is WalMart a metaphor? If so a metaphor for what?

Frankly, WalMart is just another big box, a highly successful big box, but a big box none the less.

Big boxes are not invincible. They can be defeated by other big boxes, or by direct mail.

I used to buy a lot of computer components at CompUSA. I found an on-line electronics retailer who has performed flawlessly, for much less. If you are truly running a wearhouse you can keep your real estate and labor costs to a minimum. Fed Ex and UPS have done wonders to rationalize shipping costs. All my business goes to that on-line retailer. My local CompUSA has gone out of business.

I have long thought that WalMart has placed too much emphasis on keeping employee costs low at the expense of keeping employees happy. Apparently they have calculated that 20 not so enthusiastic employees are better than 10 hard working employees receiving health care and other benefits. Costco has a different model, but as somebody pointed out their stores are organized more like Sam's Clubs than regular WalMarts.

Retail is hard no matter how you cut it. Eventually WalMart will come a cropper. They all do. Other wise, Sears and Roebuck would still be king.

Anyway, anytime a retail outfit is the focus of everybody's attention something is wrong. In a solid, robust economy manufacturers use retail to deliver goods. They dictate terms and margins. Not the other way around.

Yes, the big yellow dot is evil. Their size allows them to be relatively unconstained by factors that limit most individuals and the vast majority of other business organizations.

Despite a recent barrage of corporate PSAs, they care not for their workers or the greater community, only their appetite for expansion and quarterly profits.

This version of capitalism is killing America with more ruthless effeciency than Bin Laden could ever dream of.

Kevin is having a hard time hitting his stride after his return.

First, he takes the Armitrage news that fizzles the entire Plame affair and declares instead there is significantly more to come.

Now, he writes a long post bashing Mullaby and then turns around and basically agrees with him in a postscript. Democrats attacking Walmart are wrong politically and, more important, wrong on the economics.

Even Wal-Mart is finding out that its policies hurt its future prospects.

Read the report by McKinsey about how Wal-Mart has created efficiencies in the retail market and get back to me.

Sometimes people are so freakin' out of their element when they discuss these matters that I am sad for how stupid they sound.

I prefer a society that guns eachother down in the streets.

Read the report by McKinsey about how Wal-Mart has created efficiencies in the retail market and get back to me.
Posted by: Birkel on August 28, 2006 at 8:27 PM | PERMALINK

Yes - Standard Oil found out that having a Monopoly was very efficient. For them.

Osama_Been_Forgotten,

What the ever loving fuck does McKinsey have to do with WalMart you dumb shit?

Fucking ignoramus!

Furthermore, OBL,

Do you have any fucking clue whatsoever what McKinsey is?

And Wal-Mart could not hack it in Germany, lots of Schadenfreude. They had to abide by labor laws and failed and had to close after about 7 years.

Just some guy you mentioned that wrote some report about WalMart and how God has sent his Angels to herald Wal Mart as His new Appointed Savior of Capitalism.

Of course, I didn't mention McKinsey. Only quoting you, and your apparentl claim that all "efficiencies" are good, and therefore, any criticism of the bringer of efficiencies is evil and communist.

By the way Birkel - it would be even MORE efficient if we just took all the old people and ground them up into sausage meat when they hit 50, so we don't have to pay Social Security or other healthcare benefits.

Let's do that.

And let's put the children to work too. We'll be real efficient, by God!

Some guy?

Hey you fucking ignorant piece of shit. It's McKinsey and Company. It's the largest, most well respected consulting company in the world, you complete dip shit.

Get a fucking clue. Moron.

Now explain your increasingly obvious ignorance. Thanks in advance.

What the ever loving fuck does McKinsey have to do with WalMart you dumb shit?
Fucking ignoramus!
Posted by: Birkel on August 28, 2006 at 8:35 PM | PERMALINK

Wow. Sounds like not just the Moderates are irate.

When Republicans accuse Democrats of fomenting class war, I think the response should be "Damn straight we are!"

Yes, I agree.

Let's change the subject away from your ignorance. Ass hole.

Wrong again, Kevin. Wal-Mart has transformed the U.S. econmy from one based on small mom-n-pops that fleece poor people by overcharging for toothpaste to one in which lower everyday prices have made eveyone rich--just look at flat panel TV sales! Wal-Mart is the ultimate expression of the human potential and Sam will be treated like Jesus many years from now. All hail Wal-Mart bringer of light (bulbs), giver of life(-style magazines), and friend of children(s toys)!!!
Posted by: Al on August 28, 2006 at 5:40 PM | PERMALINK

Wal Mart to mom-n-pop: I'll trade you your economic security, your family's legacy, for a big-screen TV.

American Middle Class: Sure!

Now explain your increasingly obvious ignorance. Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Birkel on August 28, 2006 at 8:56 PM | PERMALINK

I don't care. Is that explanation enough for you? Or do you need it tatooed on your forhead?

this was my favorite {in the you-gotta-be-fuckin-kiddin-me sense} line in the whole piece:

"Moreover, Clinton and Kerry know perfectly well that market pressures limit the health coverage that companies can provide. After all, both senators have proposed expansions in government health provision precisely on the premise that the private sector can't pay for all of it."

WalMart is the largest private employer in this country (if not the world), well known for applying market pressure to get discounts when it wants to. If WalMart can't afford to broker decent health care insurance for its employees then it really is time to give up the ghost on employer-sponsored programs and get national healthcare.

OBF,

Anybody who reads this thread knows what I already know. You're a moron who admits he doesn't care about his own ignorance. You don't know basics about economics or business.

What you know is your partisan, BDS-inspired rhetoric.

You are a wind bag. Your lack of knowledge is eclipsed only by your lack of intellectual curiosity. You are a sham. A cut. A know-nothing in the classical sense.

You're a buffoon on a stage too grand for your abilities.

I will, henceforth, never refer to you again. Idiot.

cut --> cur

(referring only to my own misspelling)

Perhaps the thing I most detest about this administration is that it's made me feel like some far-out kook case. Good Lord, I spent the first half of my adult life as a (moderate) Republican, then jumped ship over the cultural wars.

But what's going on these days is simply insupportable.

By older standards, I would be a moderate. But given today's realities, I seem to be on the sort-of leftish fringe. What is wrong with the world, anyway? Aargh!!!

I just hope that the next election cycle brings some sanity to bear. The current situation is simply awful.

"POSTSCRIPT: But I will (partly) concede one point to Mallaby: it's foolish to paint Wal-Mart or the broader business community as "evil." They aren't, any more than ordinary human beings are evil. It's just that, left to their own devices, both humans and corporations tend to act solely in their own self-interest. "

A key difference being that corporations are mostly LEGALLY REQUIRED now to act solely in their own self interest, everything else be damned. And I'd dispute that individuals tend to act solely in their own self-interest. Hell, if you're a parent odds are you put someone elses interests ahead of your own many times every day.

Is this the McKinsey report you are referring to, Birkel? It doesn’t sound like McKinsey “found Wal-Mart created efficiencies”, as you put it, as much as they put together a propaganda strategy to make the Big Yellow Dot seem not so threatening. Big difference.

An excerpt:

The McKinsey report outlines a long-term approach to "managing change." In the first three to 12 months, the company was told, it should find ways to convince the public that its wages and benefits are better than perceived, spread messages that it cares for employees, build local relationships, increase local philanthropy, and research the impact of stores on their communities. Next, the study calls on the company to create another initiative that benefits workers ("e.g. workplace education, child-care program"). Finally, the study says Wal-Mart should "take public leadership on broader societal issue."

Seems to me, that you are the one who needs to get their facts straight, Birkel!

Kevin wrote: It's just that, left to their own devices, both humans and corporations tend to act solely in their own self-interest.

That's a feature, not a bug. It's in Walmart's self interest to provide useful goods at low prices, so their customers will choose to shop there. It's in Walmart's self interest to have wages and benefits and working conditions sufficient that qualified employees will choose to work there. The element of choice is what makes the capitalist system so good.

Note that the regulatory approach advocated by Kevin is worse than capitalism, because it's based on some regulator's ideas, not necessarily what the customer and employees want.

The real problem with Walmart is that they're non-union. The Dems are carrying water for the union bosses, who tend to be a heck of a lot less public-spirited than business leaders.

You don't know basics about economics or business.
Posted by: Birkel on August 28, 2006 at 9:10 PM | PERMALINK

No, idiot - pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand this:

Based on my response - my knowledge of your hero is completely irrelevant to my argument.

Your argument is that Wal Mart is good, and doesn't deserve all the bashing going on here, because your hero says that they created retail efficiencies.

My argument is that not all efficiencies are "good". If you judge the world like a spreadsheet jockey, then I suppose you can draw that conclusion. Good for you.

To make that argument, I don't have to know who the fuck McKinsey is, I never made a claim to know it, nor do I have to read their fucking report, nor do I have to give a crap what your twisted little mind thinks.

And your insult skills are for shit. Pig fucker.

TCD,

I'm pretty sure I'm pointing to this report. Fucking ass muncy.

Next moron to step up?

OK Birkel, if you are done screaming, tell us what we don't know about Wal-Mart.

Ok, Ron. You don't know anything in the McKinsey analysis I mentioned. You haven't read it. Are we good?

I read item you posted a few minutes ago. Nice PR piece, but nothing more.

If you can't explain what you are trying to say, then your ideas will be never be known.

Just being angry won't impress anybody on this board, well maybe a couple of trolls, but nobody else.

Tell us what you think the McKinnsey items says. Remember I have read what you posted, and frankly it doesn't deserve the gift of the oracle treatment you have given it, or even much time.

Tell us something.

Shorter Birkel:
I know something you don't know - therefore, none of you are qualified to even talk about it. And stop making fun of my soiled underwear!

Ron Byers,
Pay for the report, tough guy.

Here's the recap: Wal-Mart has driven retail efficiencies to 4X the level of that of the rest of the developed world which can explain the entire extent of the growth rate difference of the US vis-a-vis the rest of the developed world.

HINT: The US growth rate is higher than that of the rest of the developed world. Just so ya know.

Thanks, Kevin.

The Mallaby was so systematically ignorant of fact and insulting of logic that somebody had to address the facts. I don't agree with everything you said, but I'm glad you pointed to the absolute worthlessness of the commentary.

One thing you missed is the complete inaccuracy of his portrayal of moderate Dems (or even the left wing of the party) as reacting in a knee-jerk way to Wal-Mart. The current treasurer of the Democratic Party is Andrew Tobias, who not only owns Wal-Mart stock: He is an investment advisor who advises liberals (and others) to buy the stock.

The defense of Wal-Mart put forward by Tobias is sane and respectful of the right of others to disagree, something which puts it light-years ahead of Mallaby's rant.

I was sorry to read your post on Wal-Mart, Kevin. Mallaby was 100% correct, and you were close to 100% wrong. Mallaby wasn't saying that Democrats who attack Wal-Mart aren't "moderate." He was saying that they're wrong. If every single Democrat in the country was attacking Wal-Mart, they'd still be wrong. Wal-Mart's anti-unionism deserves to be attacked, but the other complaints, as Mallaby's analysis showed, are the products of economic illiteracy, plain and simple. You ought to read The Wealth of Nations, Kevin. You really ought to. You have some catching up to do.

Birkel:

Being such an erudite blogger, I'm sure you know that productivity is measured as total output divided by hours worked. If total hours worked fall, and output remains the same, productivity appears to go up. In other words, even if nothing is added to total societal output, but less people are working and earning wages, productivity goes up. Is that a "good" thing? I think not. Wal-Mart destroys jobs, it does not create them. In a rational world this is not a favorable outcome. In the Bizarro universe modern conservatives dwell in, apparently it is.

The Conservative Deflator

Conservative Deflator,

You're a moron beneath my contempt. Construct an argument to support your position and I'll rip it to shreads. Until then, be sure that I won't deconstruct your hypotheticals to amuse myself.

GOP,

Why bother with the Lefty uber-trolls?

Hint: The US growth rate is higher than that of the rest of the developed world. Just so ya know. Birkel

But do we live as well as the rest of the world? Are we as happy? Are we as satisfied with our lives? Does the average person have as much hope for the future?

Hint: Market efficiency isn't a God. It is a tool -- like a hammer or a screw driver. To the extent people like you worship efficiency above all else you are an idiot.

Take your anger and retreat to the dark place that is your warped soul.

Too bad you had nothing to say. I was interested in your thoughts right up to the moment you became angry.

Not to mention the one that opened in the suburbs of Chicago, Illinois.

That was over 25,000 applicants for not nearly so many jobs.

But hey. Who are we to tell the people who want the jobs what's good for them.

Oh. That's right. You're liberals. And you're perfectly content to tell other people what's what.

Ass holes.

GOP,
It was a rhetorical question. It is fun!

Ron Byers,
Please bring my goal posts back to the appropriate playing field when you're done with them. Thanks in advance.

P.S. You have no fucking clue what the hell you're discussing. Stop with the platitudes when you're obviously dealing with someone more educated on these PARTICULAR matters than yourself. It'll be less embarrassing. See, above, for details of what embarrassment is.

HINT: The US growth rate is higher than that of the rest of the developed world. Just so ya know.
Posted by: Birkel on August 28, 2006 at 9:56 PM | PERMALINK

HINT: To the Average American, that means jack squat.

GDP growth alone is not a meaningful indicator of overall benefit and good. If it were, we'd just let all the companies merge into one and let them be really really super efficient, and their marketing department can churn out all the propaganda you like so you can continue to back up your bogus arguments in blogs.

"I also prefer a society in which middle class workers prosper when the economy grows."

Ummmm, Kevin, do only middle-class workers count? How about Walmart workers-- that is, lower-class workers? I'm assuming you just tossed in "middle-class" to make us feel it's our problem too. But poor people are Americans too... and it's scary these days how often I feel the need to remind people of that. As my dad used to say, "It ain't no crime to be poor, but it might as well be."

But in the Dems' urge to recruit the middle class, we can't forget who we are-- that we are the party that respects the dignity of all Americans, even if they aren't "middle class".

"But I will (partly) concede one point to Mallaby: it's foolish to paint Wal-Mart or the broader business community as "evil." They aren't, any more than ordinary human beings are evil. It's just that, left to their own devices, both humans and corporations tend to act solely in their own self-interest."
{ironic}Yeah, just like IG Farben wasn't evil. They just tried to make some profits and one of their successful products was Zyklon B.{/ironic}

Well, with all due respect, but NO, Kevin. If someone engage in unethical behaviour, being fully aware of the consequences for others, but valuing his own self interests higher than their rights or their lifes, most would describe this as 'evil'.

So, for instance, ENRON was evil, robbing the people of Claifornia of several billions by criminal means. As for WalMart, the jury is still out, but imho at least their methods in preventing unionization are evil.

oops,
Yet another idiot into the fray. Thanks. Comic relief is always appreciated.

Have you considered how the 25,000 applicants viewed themselves? Of course not. You simply view them as pawns in your political game as you talk about the "poor", like you're some sort of martyr. It's a tired performance. And you're bad at it.

And did you consider the poor who benefit from a 4X more efficient retail sector? No. Of course you didn't. That is beyond your comprehension. I love the Liberal trolls when they're this foolish.

Gray takes the cake.

He's the #1 crazy!?!

But still, there's time to overwhelm his crazy. Try harder.

Gray takes the cake.

He's the #1 crazy!?!

But still, there's time to overwhelm his crazy. Try harder.

And did you consider the poor who benefit from a 4X more efficient retail sector?

Benefit from getting paid about 1/3 of what it costs to raise a family? And you guys call yourselves the pro-family party?

Birkel,

Unlike you I don't pretend to know anything special. I can read. I can listen. I can learn. Of course the guy on the other side has to say something worthy.

Let me tell you a story about my first effort at debate in the 7th grade. Just like you I thought I had all the answers. The other side was just dumb. I was very clever with my words. I told everybody how dumb the other side was. I showed them no respect. They won. The debate coach later told me that because I showed my opponents no respect I failed to listen to what they were actually saying. They ate my lunch.

That was 7th grade. I have been arguing professionally since for the last 34 years. I have actually lost arguments every time I personalized the debate and tried to claim moral superiority over some asshole or other who didn't know shit. They realized my weakness for smugness and took advantage. Generally I won when I listened and didn't lose my cool.

In real life claiming you are the font of all wisdom is a good way to lose your argument. That is what you did and did consistently. You will lose every argument as long as you are unwilling to treat your opponents with respect.

Wal-Mart is just another company. It does some things well, but it is not above reproach.

Companies meet the needs of people, not the other way around. I have actually had to deal with corporate types over the years. Some of them have been good people. Some have been less than trustworthy. The one thing they many had in common is they were driven by the bottom line. Many were playing a zero sum game. I win, you lose. For the most part those people are unhappy people. The Wal-Mart corporate types I have met fit that mold.

You only live about 75 years. You only have about 40 years to be productive. If you can't be happy in your job, well I feel sorry for you. Your life is wasted. I don't give a shit about how much money you make or how efficient your company is, your life is wasted. Sadly that impacts all the people around you.

Don't worship the false God of the market. The Big Screen TV will never bring you as much joy as a sunset.

Birkel, your argument is as weak and as common as a noodle that has been boiled too long (http://www.birkel.de/dienudel/nudelstart.htm).

Well, your four times as efficient retail sector, (where do those numbers come from, btw? WalMart?), how many jobs were eliminated in achiweving this? How did this affect the wages in the sector? How do you know that the 'savings effect' outweighs the loss in wages for the low earning households?

You're very quick in calling others 'idiots'. Well, show us how smart you are, by answering thiese questions, instead of simply spreading right wing talking points. Cause, you know, even parrots may recite arguments provided by WalMart, it's not really a sign of high IQ.

"I love the Liberal trolls when they're this foolish."

That's the difference between us, I'm not a masochist, I don't love freeper trolls. They are always foolish. You're a perfect example.

Gray,

GOP is a paid professional. Birkel is a true believer. I don't count him a troll just yet. If he was he would know that somebody center left doesn't troll this site.

Well, if he isn't a troll he shouldn't behave like one.

As I understand it, Walmart is sucessful for three reasons. First, the company has an extremely efficient supply-chain, which cuts down lots of their overhead costs. This is laudable. Second, Walmart currently exploits the hell out of its employees. This is reprehensible. Third, Walmart negotiates extremely, *extremely* hard for low prices from its suppliers. This is problematic given the company's sheer size and influemce in the retail market.

It's in Walmart's self interest to have wages and benefits and working conditions sufficient that qualified employees will choose to work there.

...But that's not true. They use mostly a mostly untrained workforce, and they choose communities to service based upon having no competition - in retailers and in jobs.

There's a reason WalMart doesn't particularly do well in urban, high growth areas.

Fourth, WalMart as the biggest employer in the US, with a sales volume dwarving the budget of many nations, has incredible political influence, especially on the state level. So they are able to bend the lawmaking process in their favor, and this is a very critical issue.

Ron Byers,
If you know something about something you shouldn't deign to be a know nothing. And there you have it.
The false god of the market? Golly, it sounds so biblical. I guess it's a good thing I'm an atheist. Take that bull shit and shove it right back into your ass. Thanks in advance.

Gray,
Thank you for demonstrating your lack of understanding of the issue at hand. It makes me more efficient. Kudos.

And I'm more than happy you raunchy ass holes are willing to call the 25,000 applicants to a Chicago-area Wal-Mart them how foolish they all are. It's simply stupefying. I am in awe.

whoops, corrected below--
And I'm more than happy you raunchy ass holes are willing to call the 25,000 applicants to a Chicago-area Wal-Mart how foolish they all are. It's simply stupefying. I am in awe.

call --> tell

Damn it!

Birkel, your correction (like your viewpoint) is incorrect.

I guess you already knew that too.Right? Asshole.

vbrans,

You'll kindly dispute the McKinsey article I linked above. Thanks in advance. Douche bag.

GOP,

It's the lack of tin foil.
Fewer people would apply if they had the appropriate head gear.
Don'tchaknow?

Good evening, everyone. This session of posting reminds me of something my dad taught me a loooong time ago.

"He who loses his cool, loses."

Dear old dad. Proven right again.

Birkel If you know something about something you shouldn't deign to be a know nothing. And there you have it.

Other than your unsubstantiated self-congratulatory profession that you are the all knowing font concerning all things Wal-Mart,I have seen nothing in any of your posts that even suggests you know anything about Wal-Mart. And there you have it.

AND THE WINNER IS (drumrolllllllll)

The tag-team of Ron Byers, Osama Been Forgotten, and Gray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wooo Hoooo!

...and yes, someone did die and make me god.

Ron Byers,
I can understand how someone who does not follow links could think thusly.
Don't be too hard on yourself for being a purposeful dumb ass.
It fits you well.

jcricket,

Tell your dad thanks for the advice and the blow job.
Both were appreciated from a guy who can't follow links.

Birkel, you asshole. I live in Tilden,Illinois.Wal-Mart moved in promising tax revenue.When the tax break was over they left town.Now the big building left is efficient at being an eyesore and nothing else.Now this place is a literal ghost-town.Fuck you in advance.Fuckhole

Sorry Birkel, dad can't give a blowjob to a pussy.

Birkel, you asshole. I live in Tilden,Illinois.Wal-Mart moved in promising tax revenue.When the tax break was over they left town.Now the big building left is efficient at being an eyesore and nothing else.Now this place is a literal ghost-town.Fuck you in advance.

vbrans,
Whaaaahhh! I give a teeny tiny fuck about your sob story.

jcricket,
Get my come out of your dad's eye. It's embarassing.

vbrans - you might even say that Walmart did the ol' Cut And Run maneuver!!

What's that?
Oh! That's just the sound of you ass holes moving the goal posts.

Be quick! Nobody will notice.

Yes to all three, I think. Europeans, for example, seem to be far more wrapped up in their own lives, and to have far less hope for the future, given their low fertility rates.
Posted by: GOP

you're an ignorant jackass ... the best predictors of fertility are race and education level. The discrepancy between American and European fertility rates can be summarily explained by either 1) more Hispanics in America, or 2) higher average European education.

With dumbfucks like GOP posting unsubstantiated, nationalistic, casually racist bullshit on a regular basis, I can see an argument for the latter.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/97facts/edu2birt.htm

I did the ol' spoog and run on jcricket's dad.

Birkel, nice response.When proven wrong insult.

Nads,

I can see how you saying Latinos are the sole cause of higher pregnancy rates was GOP's racism.

Have you checked your irony gauge? I think it might be broken.

vbrans,
I'm waiting for a refutation of the paper written by McKinsey.
'Til then it's insults all around.

Good luck with that. Sperm jockey.

Fuck McKinsey.He also thinks that corporations should have more control in decision making than the state.This is called fascism you stupid brownshirt bootlicker.

McKinsey is an international corporation, fuckstick.
Use of the article 'he' makes no sense in this context.
Please lick my balls clean of your spittle.

Thanks in advance.

I'm waiting for a refutation of the paper written by McKinsey.
'Til then it's insults all around. Birkel

And that my foolish friend is exactly why you have lost this debate. If you want to argue McKinsey tell us what it says and why it is so damn important. Until then you are just wasting your time.

Is this international corporation not named after an individual?You an the rest of the technocratic manipulators will have your day.To quote RATM "Hungry people don't stay hungry for long.They get hope from fire and smoke as they reach for the dawn".

I can see how you saying Latinos are the sole cause of higher pregnancy rates was GOP's racism.
Have you checked your irony gauge? I think it might be broken.
Posted by: Birkel

GOP's racism is inherant to his name, asshole ... and I fail to see how the quotation of actual epidemiological data constitutes racism on my part:

"Women with college degrees can be expected to complete their childbearing with 1.6-2.0 children each; 1.7 for non-Hispanic white, 1.6 for non-Hispanic black, and 2.0 for Hispanic women. For women with less education the total expected number of children are: 3.2 children for those with 0-8 years of education; 2.3 children for those with 9-11 years of education and 2.7 for high school graduates."

Birth and Fertility Rates by Educational Attainment: United States, 1994,"
T. J. Mathews and Stephanie J. Ventura

... but conservatives in general are insecure regarding race relations, so I can see how you'd feel that any mention of race is racism.

vbrans,
I'm sure nobody has ever been names "McKinsey and Company" by their parents. So, yes, the corporation was not named for an individual. Pedantic bitch.

Ron Byers,
If I waited for those in the "reality-based community" to refute scientifically based papers I'd never get anything done.

Fuck you right in the ear.

No it can't. Even college-educated white Americans have significantly higher fertility than their European counterparts. You don't know what you're talking about.
Posted by: GOP

care to quote some stats to back that up, cumstain? and any substantiation to your asinine assertion that any difference in fertility rates reflects differences in the mothers' degree of self-involvement or their "hope for the future"?

ignorant republican fuckwads ...

Nads,
I can see why you'd get bent out of shape.
After all, it was your party who put Joe Lieberman in blackface.
It was your party who equated Sec. of State Condoleeza Rice with Aunt Jemima.
It was your party who claimed conservative Justice of the US Supreme Court Clarence Thomas was a hypersexual black man.

All that was your party.

GOP simply noted trans-continental differences in birth rates.

I can see who has race on the brain.

My bad, you racist, Leftist ass hole.

Marshmallows anyone?

Birkel, http://www.mckinsey.com/aboutus/wherewestarted/.Hopefully you will now shut your dirty little Fuckmouth(After you remove my cock that is).

If I waited for those in the "reality-based community" to refute scientifically based papers I'd never get anything done.
Posted by: Birkel

are you still talking about that mckinsey report? I'm curious why you consider that report to be scientifically based?

given the right's general scientific illiteracy, and their demonstrated refusal to accept the inconvenient results of actual science publications in preference to their varied superstitions, I can see how you'd be confused.

I often quote Rage Against the Machine in political arguments, vbrans. You?

And now you're saying McKinsey is a one person operation?

Did the short bus not come to get you this morning?

Yeah, nads!

What a great refutation!

Good job.

I see ... so the rightwing's wholehearted embrace of the southern strategy of returning black voters to 1950s status is acceptable, but my mention of higher Hispanic fertility rates is racist.

... and the inability to find any actual racism on my post results in a posting of various offences perpetrated by "liberals"?

you're pathetically stupid even for a conservative. try not to reproduce ... I think you might be missing a chromosome, or something vital, which I'd hate to see passed on to a future unsuspecting offspring.

I am saying it is a corporation founded on one persons(McKinsey's) philosophy.Get it now you stupid shitwhore??The short-bus is still in your gaping bumhole fuckface.

Birkel, These people you worship are not your freind.You are there little slave.They use you and then laugh at you.You will realize this several decades from now when you are dumpster diving with your grandchildren.You dirty pissflap you.

vbrans,
No. You see, I have a job. I am THE MAN. Scary, eh?

Nads,
Southern Strategy?
How long will that excuse the Aunt Jemima and blackface representations? What's the ratio/time frame for racism on the Left.
I'd like to know in advance of the next racist thing you say.

Wow a job.How do you do it all and still suck all that cock?Amazing!!!Oh and scary??not in the least.By the by have you removed the short-bus yet??