Condupstak (Hittite meaning "first!")

I'm not a PETA member, nor will I e-mail you, but mark me down as a supporter of the foie grass ban.

Foie gras is an expensive delicacy that was only served at high-end restaurants most people can't afford anyway. Because the chattering classes aren't "most people", this gets massive attention.

The living wage ordinance is something that does make a real difference, and it's something Democrats should be pushing nationally.

Trust me, only about three people in Chicago observe the no-yakking-on-cell-while-driving ordinance. I was mowed down on a morning run by one of the others; he left me prone on the pavement while he zoomed away, still chatting.

I seem to recall a Calvin Trillin piece somewhere called "Rudy Giuliani, proctor of New York," in which he mocked the mayor for prosecuting jaywalkers. Even with Bloomberg in Gracie Mansion, every time I jaywalk in Manhattan I still look around for cops first.

tossing-pails-of-shit-out-your-window laws.

You missed not-blowing-up-your-own-house laws (or maybe that's specific to NYC).

There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the increase in laws is moving away from necessary "3 million people in a small space need some laws to avoid chaos" type of laws into a "I personally disapprove of something, so no one around me should be able to do it."
The foie gras ban is one good example; if you personally don't like foie gras, don't buy it, but this type of "burning" issue shouldn't be taking up the time of a big city council. Ditto with the draconian smoking laws popping up all over the nation; we've moved past protecting waitresses into penalizing private decisions, and calling out trends in these types of laws is necessary analysis.

You could move to Iraq. Republicans have intervened there and made it possible to discharge weapons, set off bombs, torture friends and enemies, set fires and kidnap anyone with a few dollars ransom to be paid, all with little or no repercussions. And inside city limits! Talk about being free to do what you want! And if an uppity city council proposes banning some behavior that happens to be one of your favorite pastimes? Just kill them. There, now you can go back to smoking in that restauraunt you like.

Face it: if you want to be a libertarian, rural Idaho is the place for you. But if you want to live in close proximity to millions of your fellow citizens, be prepared for some restrictions.

*Snicker* Then how come we don't see laws in the big cities banning gay marriage, abortions, or flag burning? Or laws allowing wiretaps of suspected Islamofascists? It's only when you want to control conservatives or businesses or want to pass politically correct laws that liberals like yourselves start clamoring about the need for restrictions. But when conservatives demand restrictions on immoral sinful behavior or laws to prevent another act of Islamofascist terrorism, liberals start whining about the Bill Of Rights and destroying "freedom". What hypocrites.

Kevin, you are surely correct. There is absolutely no act so cruel that we shouldn't be allowed to pursue it. Force-feeding, through a metal tube, geese and ducks? Ha! What kind of ruthless capitalist can we be if we say this should not be allowed?

Al nails it!

We must outlaw anything that makes my skin crawl or makes Al question his own sexuality!

But cruelty to animals? Overt suffering? Great stuff! Yes!

Don't tell me you are some kind of Gandhi-person, thinking things like, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

Only by persecuting gays and imposing Christianist laws can we be great!

The funny thing about most of these types of Conservative complainers is that they usually tend to congregate in tightly covenant controlled communities and will typically howl the loudest if their neighbor paints their house pink.

As a land use attorney, I can tell you that Zoning and other land use laws are usually very popular ... when applied to the guy down the block.

I lived in rural Idaho for five long, torturous years, and believe me, 90 percent of the folks there are not libertarians. They're rabid right-wing Republicans who worship George Bush as the second coming of the Messiah. They don't care if their freedoms are curtailed - after all, the president they love is a-whupping them there terrists.

But when the Big Dog was running things, they went running around screaming "Clinton's gonna take our guns away! Clinton's gonna take our land away!" (the public land they've destroyed over the course of generations of cattle grazing.)

The ironic thing is that Bush would be more likely to do both of those things.

That the Times columnist stretches to score political points off the foie gras "controversy" is truly hilarious. It isn't the nanny state gone wild. It isn't even a moral statement. It's the City Council doing what it does best--overblown ridiculous gestures, with in origin in God knows what impulse. But considering how they deal with real issues, believe me, it's better they work off their energy with this stuff.

"Face it: if you want to be a libertarian, rural Idaho is the place for you. But if you want to live in close proximity to millions of your fellow citizens, be prepared for some restrictions. I'll bet there's even an old Hittite saying for this."

So, do you liberals feel like your civil liberties are slipping away? I mean isn't this much more invasive than say... looking at bank transactions of suspected terrorists? Where's outrage?

Most moderates do not understand how or why the social contract, which allows us to live together without fighting the war of all against all, came about, so I was surprised to find out Mr. Drum is a Rousseauean. Most moderates just accept the fact the rich can do whatever they want to whomever they want because they have the only real legitimate power of wealth. The wealthy own their own private Idaho.

KC45s: It isn't the nanny state gone wild. It isn't even a moral statement. It's the City Council doing what it does best--overblown ridiculous gestures, with in origin in God knows what impulse. But considering how they deal with real issues, believe me, it's better they work off their energy with this stuff.

The Chicago City Council is tied with the Texas lege for Legislative Body Most Likely to Lapse Into Runaway Indulgence of a Marginal Idea that Came to Some Member at 4 a.m. Besides watching the way Helen Shiller looks at Bert Natarus, it's the best free entertainment in town--and as you say, it keeps them off real issues to the betterment of the populace.

If Ginger Rugai ever gets her pit bull ban through the Council, the entertainment factor will go up 1,000 percent. Half the dogs in this city, possibly including my fifth-generation mutt, have a bit of pit in their wildly complicated mixes.

"Face it: if you want to be a libertarian, rural Idaho is the place for you. But if you want to live in close proximity to millions of your fellow citizens, be prepared for some restrictions."

Face it, if liberals don't mind Sharia law, rural Pakistan is the place for you. But if you want to live, be prepared for some restrictions.

I have seen both a foie gras farm in southern France and a "modern" American egg factory. The foie gras geese wandered around in an open sunny field acting very much the way geese act – a bit silly but not particularly traumatized near as I could tell. In comparison the American chickens were stuck in small cages under computer controlled lighting, beaks clipped, a conveyor belt in front bringing food and a water trough underneath washing away the CS, waiting for the day the computer decided their productivity had sagged and sent them off to the chicken soup factory. If in the next life I am given the alternative of coming back as either a French foie gras goose or an American chicken, it will be an easy choice.

So, do you liberals feel like your civil liberties are slipping away?

When I can be picked up off the street, rendered to some undisclosed location without any legal representation and tortured, then I'd say that my civil rights haven't slipped away, but they are being stolen.

What is sad about the attitudes Americans have about force feeding geese to enlarge their livers, is that they have no problem with the military run orphanages in Iraq where the children are force fed in the same way for the same reasons. What is truly unfortunate, is that the average GI Joe's are not allowed to eat this New Guinea delicacy, it is reserved for the generals and DoD big shots, who fly in unannounced just to dine on this military elite staple.

Question for Al:

Bceause I couldn't tell from you rant, do you support or oppose the foie grass ban?

Fafner:

You can buy free-range chicken.

Man, there's a law against tossing shit out your window? Oops.

Man, there's a law against tossing shit out your window? Oops.

If you holler "Gardy-loo!" in a charming Southern drawl first, you'll be fine.

I'll bet there's even an old Hittite saying for this.

From the code of Hammurabi about 1780 BC:

53. If any one be too lazy to keep his dam in proper condition, and does not so keep it; if then the dam break and all the fields be flooded, then shall he in whose dam the break occurred be sold for money, and the money shall replace the corn which he has caused to be ruined.

54. If he be not able to replace the corn, then he and his possessions shall be divided among the farmers whose corn he has flooded.

55. If any one open his ditches to water his crop, but is careless, and the water flood the field of his neighbor, then he shall pay his neighbor corn for his loss.

56. If a man let in the water, and the water overflow the plantation of his neighbor, he shall pay ten gur of corn for every ten gan of land.

On medical malpractice:

218. If a physician make a large incision with the operating knife, and kill him, or open a tumor with the operating knife, and cut out the eye, his hands shall be cut off.

219. If a physician make a large incision in the slave of a freed man, and kill him, he shall replace the slave with another slave.

220. If he had opened a tumor with the operating knife, and put out his eye, he shall pay half his value.

229 If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

230. If it kill the son of the owner the son of that builder shall be put to death.

231. If it kill a slave of the owner, then he shall pay slave for slave to the owner of the house.

232. If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means.

233. If a builder build a house for some one, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means.

Chicago is overloaded with regulations. You're just hearing about new & interesting ones.

The civil libertarian in me doesn't like the smoking ban, but my lungs appreciate it. I can now go to shows in small venues and not feel like I'm about to pass out from lack of oxygen. And my clothes don't smell terrible afterwards.

"Face it: if you want to be a libertarian, rural Idaho is the place for you. "

Nah, places like rural Idaho are heavily subsidized by the urban centers of the united states. Go live in a rural area if you want to suck off the government teat with a bunch of other people who either don't know about thier subsidization, or pretend they don't know.

You can't go anywhere to be a libertarian because libertarianism is idiotic and doesn't occur in the real world.

Fafner1 sez:

I have seen both a foie gras farm in southern France and a "modern" American egg factory. The foie gras geese wandered around in an open sunny field... the American chickens were stuck in small cages under computer controlled lighting... If in the next life I am given the alternative of coming back as either a French foie gras goose or an American chicken, it will be an easy choice.

David P sez:

Fafner:
You can buy free-range chicken.

David P:

You can. But it's not legislated that you have to or that chickens have to be treated that way. That's the point. Until the Chicago City Council bans non-free-range chicken, non-free-range pork (pigs undergo sometimes even worse treatment than chickens), and the like, their ban on foie gras is hypocritical and idiotic.

I eat me the hell out of some foie gras. I also only eat free-range organic chicken and similar cruelty-free and natural products (at the expense of eating less meat because of the financial impact).

I dunno if Rand fanboys need to get rural and head for the Idaho outback. Mogadishu is a close approximation to an urban rule-and-regulation-free paradise. Why don't more libertarians move there?

I try very hard not to eat industrialized chicken or eggs. The cruelty these animals suffer is imprinted in their cells and then assumed by their consumers. I do not want to be built with abused animal flesh, but it does explain a lot about other Americans' behavior. If we are what we eat, which I think is true, then it explains why Americans are so hysterically fearful. Most Americans are made from the traumatized flesh of industral farm animals, who live in terrible conditions and die in much worse conditions. All of the stress hormones released into these animals bodies from these living and dying conditions is then transferred to the Americans who consume them. The unconsciousness of Bush and the Americans who support him is dominated by the fear of the abattoir. Iraqi children have the same fear, except it is concsious.

Kevin:

It is possible to believe everything you said is right and also believe everything Nick said is right. From the quoted part, I don't see where you disagreed with anything Nick said. I read Nick as saying cities are passing some dumb regulations. I read you as saying cities have to pass some common sense regulations. I think Nick, you, and myself all agree that cities have to pass good, sensible regulations while not passing dumb ones. Of course there is plenty of disagreement about which ones are dumb and which ones are wise. But there is nothing about a city, as opposed to a farm, that makes regulations on wages more desirable, for example.

Who was it that had the song that mentioned "Hayseeds on subsidies cussing women on welfare"? That wraps up the rural West in a nutshell (spoken as a rural Westerner). I was amused a few weeks ago to see a bumper sticker on a truck in Pagosa Springs CO that said "Don't let John Kerry "Gore" your guns." Funny because I don't remember John Kerry (or Al Gore for that matter) ever even mentioning any kind of gun control as a key (or even a marginal) part of their 2004 campaign.

"Hayseeds on subsidies cussing women on welfare"

I have heard that cussing from my well subsidized farmer relatives.

Yeah, if you want to be a real libertarian, then Somalia is the place for you. Rural Idaho is utterly subsidized - look at those roads, those rails, those dams and all that federally supported agribusiness. No, any true libertarian would have to move to the place with the least real government of all.

But, of course, that would expose their philosophy as bullshit. Plus get them killed.

Alas.

Kevin wrote: "At the risk of being deluged with angry email from PETA members, I'll give Nick the foie gras thing."

Force-feed a goose by stuffing a tube down its throat and pumping it full of as much rich, fatty feed as its stomach can hold without exploding (OK, some of the geese will die because the tube rips their throat open when it is shoved in, and some of their stomachs will explode, but write that off as a cost of doing business). After a while the goose's liver will become diseased and enormously bloated. Then you kill the goose and eat the diseased, bloated liver. That's "foie gras".

Yummy.

Ah, Southern Idaho, Land of the Free, Land of Claude Dallas - Ah, to be able to execute Game Wardens and have your wrist slapped. Isn't Deseret such a wonderful country?

sglover:

Mogadishu is now an Islamist Taliban state. Still an anarchy to be sure -- but watch out for those religious police with AKs.

Hostile:

I think you meant to call Kevin a Hobbesian, not a Rousseauvian.

A Rousseauvian would be more inclined to believe that people are good, but society turns them into monsters. A little too wildly idealistic (not to mention implicitly anti-statist) for our sponsor here.

Bob

Talking on your cell phone while driving has not been outlawed in Chicago.

Talking on your cell phone while holding your phone to your ear while driving has been outlawed in Chicago.

Use a headset and you can talk on your cell phone while driving all you want.

I dunno if Rand fanboys need to get rural and head for the Idaho outback. Mogadishu is a close approximation to an urban rule-and-regulation-free paradise. Why don't more libertarians move there?

Haven't you folks heard? The Libertarians are moving to NH.

I was referring to Mr. Drum's realizaiton that laws, emanating from the social contract, are needed in order for people to live together. The war of all against all would be the state of nature Mssr. Rousseau wrote about. You are correct that Rousseau thought that mankind in the state of nature was ideally good and Hobbes thought it a never ending competition among beasts. To me the state of nature of mankind is a war of all against all, so I combined/confused the two to make my point about how the social contract allowing humans to live together came about.

Nick Gillespie makes it sound as if Chicago has turned into a mega-sized version of Takoma Park, Md. (Takoma Park is a small city just outside Washington, D.C., where Goldie Hawn grew up. Over the past few decades, it's become a haven for artists, bohemians and anti-nuke protesters.) I think he's taking his case to extremes.

Perhaps we can take a few rundown city blocks and create a "Chicago" theme park, full of the city stereotypes Gillespie holds so dear. I'm so looking forward to the animatronic Studs Terkel!

Fresno law still on the books; All vehicles must come to a full stop at all intersections and fire a pistol into the air before crossing.

I once had a very intelligent, law school educated, Randian colleague argue that municipal fire department's were unnecessary. Her argument was that it was the individual's responsibility to insure their home against loss and to protect it from the possibility that their neighbor's home might catch on fire and that that fire might spread. In her mind, if they failed to do that and their home was so affected, that was their problem, not her's. This was not some un-educated nutcase, she was actually very bright. But she was dead serious. She had decided that the social contract really could all be handled through the application of tort law, private contract and limited criminal statute. And that's the consequence of Randian thinking, it really absolves an individual of any social responsibility.

I don't think Chicago is the first city to ban foie gras. Well I suppose, city it is, but California banned it first.

Also, DC has a cell phone ban while driving. Not that he suggests Chicago is the first. And isn't Reason based in California -- that state with a STATEWIDE smoking ban. Voted on by the voters (just like they did in Chicago.)

This all reminds me of that great Michael Kinsley article for Time in the 1990s: libertarianism is the right to kill yourself. (I'm paraphrasing.) The idea was that if you want to eat in a rat invested restaurant and get ebola, you should be able to do that.

nutty little nut nut:

I hear it's still illegal to rollerskate underwater in Tennessee.

There are a number of exceedingly silly municipal ordinances and state laws and suchlike, written doubtless for an extremely unusual occurance, and still on the books.

I saw a whole list of them complied years ago ... I wish my memory were better about this.

Bob

This may or not be relevant, but the Chicago Tribune co now owns the LA Times, and I don't think LA likes that...

Doug-E-Fresh:

Absolutely on the money. Years ago, canvassing for the League of Conservation Voters, I ran into a self-described Lib who believed that all conflicts over pollution can be adequately taken care of through civil lawsuits.

The ginormous chemical company who wrecked your aquifer can merely be hauled into court, and may the most well-argued lawsuit win.

Apparently he had never heard of the "wall of flesh."

Bob

The idea that Chicago has banned smoking is utter nonsense. Basically, we're talking about restaurants & bars, because there just aren't too many other structures where people could smoke/were smoking, anyway. (Grocery store? Library? Hospital? Sports arena? Smoking was forbidden in those places a long time ago.) So the "ban" goes into effect immediately, unless you're either a bar or a restaurant with a bar, in which case you have until July 2008 to comply; and even then, you're exempt from the "ban" if you install a ventilation system. So who's affected? Dunkin' Donuts, McDonald's -- places like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't think you could smoke in those places before, anyway. As others rightly point out, this is the City Council doing what it does best -- absolutely nothing. I suppose it's OK, though, as long as it prevents them from voting themselves another pay raise.

Foie gras illegal? Damn. At least we can still eat babies' eyes. Oh we can't? Jeez!

You people and your stupid laws. I'm moving to the moon where I can eat whatever I want.

The wailing and gnashing over smoking bans is so last century. New York and LA have them and it's glorious --- despite the initial freakout, the bar industry didn't die -- in fact it has prospered. Big tobacco is still making money. I don't have to reek of other people's Kools. It's a win-win-win.

Talking on your cell phone while driving has not been outlawed in Chicago.

Talking on your cell phone while holding your phone to your ear while driving has been outlawed in Chicago.

Use a headset and you can talk on your cell phone while driving all you want.

Which is kind of dumb, since the studies that have shown any decrease in awareness and increase in danger associated with cell phone use when driving have found that the problem comes from a "tunnel vision" effect that is the same when using a handset, a headset, or a speakerphone.

Some libertarian news:

Police say man killed over sex allegation

FAIRFIELD, Conn., Aug. 31 (UPI) -- A Connecticut lawyer faces burglary and murder charges for allegedly killing a neighbor he suspected of sexually abusing his 2-year-old daughter.

Fairfield police said Jonathon Edington, 29, heard allegations from a family member on Monday his neighbor, Barry James, 69, had molested the child.

Investigators allege Edington broke into James' house and repeatedly stabbed him, The New York Times reported. James was found by his elderly mother and died an hour later in the hospital.

Police said they found Edington that afternoon in his kitchen, wearing blood-spattered clothing, the newspaper said.

Capt. Gary MacNamara, of the Fairfield Police said at a news conference Wednesday no sexual assault complaint had been filed against James.

"We have no information to indicate it did occur, and we weren't investigating James for any illegal activity," MacNamara in the Times' report.

Edington was released on $1 million bond and is to be arraigned Sept. 12.

Copyright Political Gateway 2006©
Copyright United Press International 2006

You can have my foie gras when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Talking on your cell phone while holding your phone to your ear while driving has been outlawed in Chicago.

Which is dumb, because major highways is where you find the highest concentration of cell phone relay towers, and therefore, the best signal.

(as funny and sarcastic as this statement is, it is also completely true).

Yeah! If we outlaw foie gras, then only outlaws will have foie gras!

The Republican Response to Hammurabi's code:

53. If any one be too lazy to keep his dam in proper condition, and does not so keep it; if then the dam break and all the fields be flooded, then shall he in whose dam the break occurred be sold for money, and the money shall replace the corn which he has caused to be ruined.. . . (etc)

If these Liberal propositions were in place, then no heroic enterpreneurs would ever build a dam, or farm land.
We can't endorse any proposition that would result in hamstringing American dam building competitiveness.

On medical malpractice:

218. If a physician make a large incision with the operating knife, and kill him, or open a tumor with the operating knife, and cut out the eye, his hands shall be cut off.

Another product of evil liberal ideas, and greedy trial lawyers, trying to get their grubby hands on all those doctor's hands!

Ideas like this is why medical costs are so high, because doctors will be spending so much time on being careful not to make mistakes with their operating knives.

229 If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

Liberals just want to do away with personal responsibility! They just can't accept that it is the duty of the owner not to enter a house if it's been constructed improperly, or to only pick contractors who won't build houses improperly!

Any good Christian homeowner would realize that this is yet another lame attempt by Liberals to increase the institutionalized assault-by-lawsuit, on America's construction industry.

This law would cost jobs. Period.

Besides, the Boskin Commission concluded that the CPI overstates inflation by 1% or more, because today's improperly constructed houses have far more features than last year's improperly constructed death-traps.

Consider this in lieu of an angry e-mail from a PETA member:

Are there laws all over the US preventing me from tearing the ears off live puppies and kittens because I happen to find them yummy? Yes, there are. They're cruelty to animal laws. Now seriously, what's the difference in the foie gras case? Huh? Nothing? Yeah, I thought so--nothing.

You know, the painfully tortured arguments used by advocates of this kind of excessive-cruelty-for-pleasure in order to defend themselves really does signal some serious bad faith. Some arguments are just too patently stupid to be believed even by the people making them.

Kevin,
Though I see your point, it is valid only to a certain point. Noise restrictions? Give me a break. The amount of rules and regulations in NYC, where I live, is truly mind boggling. In certain parks: no loud music, no being in the park after dark, no drinking, no barbecuing, no playing on the grass, no skateboarding, no rollerbalding, enjoy. On the front of my building, right above the door, there is a sign which reads "no standing in front of building, no sitting on steps, no ball playing, no soliciting." There is a new state law requiring a licensed cook to oversee the baking of brownies, muffins, cupcakes, or whatever a child wishes to bring into school for whatever celebration. My aunt had to get permission from the state to put a sliding door on the back of her house. In New York, Jesus himself would be arrested for panhandling. It seems to me that anyone who cares to sue the city for whatever reason, and wins, can basically come to impose his or her whims on the rest of the population. People do not have the right not to be annoyed. You want peace and quiet? Go to Idaho.

Rules - regulations - most of them are good for us, if we want to live in close proximity to our neighbors. In Cook County, Illinois, of which Chicago is the most famous city there are a zillion things you must do before you can sell your house. Literally a very thick document of rules. But, ya know what, for the buyer, it helps make sure s/he doesn't get taken to the cleaners. The only ones that don't like rules are the business people who will get hurt by them.

Rules are the lubrication that keeps a civilized society flowing

One hundred and more years ago immigrants poured into Chicago to work; in order to provide a decent life for their children. It was there that the great struggle for the eight hour day grew strong. Today those ancestors of ours would be disappointed to learn that $10 an hour was still considered a dream to strive for.

Somalia isn't a libertarian paradise. It's an anarchist paradise. While there may be some overlap on the fringes there's a big difference between the ideal world of an anarchist and libertarian.

It's sort of like saying green party candidates should move to cuba or china.

According to Katherine Harris, the foie gras prohibition has its source in the Ten Commandments.

Anon:

That's a distinction without a difference.

Bob

Chicago came into existence because of a decision by the city fathers to expend large amounts of public money to drain riverside land and build grain elevators and cranes to make the city the agricultural staple port of the Midwest.

I've seen this conservative trope numerous times over the past couple of years - this idea that cities were built through the unrestricted energy of private entrepreneurship, and now their governments are killing them with regulation and public spending. The idea borders on pure insanity. It's akin to the notion that children are what really drive families and do all the work of learning and growing, and if parents don't get out of the way and let their kids play without imposing all these rules and requiring them to go to school, we will stifle families and stunt our children.

but I also think you'd have a hard time showing that government provision works better.

Unless you, say, read a book about the history of the fire department of New York City, which moved from "private and voluntary" clubs to government-provided in the late 19th century. Fire damage dropped dramatically, fire fatalities dropped dramatically, the fire department was able to work with building inspectors to ensure that buildings had to be built in a fashion which reduced the likelihood of fires (which private fire-rescue clubs obviously couldn't do), and in general the city moved out of the middle ages and into the modern world. (Incidentally, "private and voluntary" firefighting clubs tended to pillage people's houses while putting out the blaze, and sometimes actually allowed fires to continue until they reached the point where pillage would be possible. The NYFD, not so much.)

But that would require actually reading a book, or at least a Wikipedia entry. And as we all know, conservatives don't do "evidence".

I once had a very intelligent, law school educated, Randian colleague

No you didn't. There is no such thing as an intelligent Randian. Sorry.

Somebody quick use a big squirty Hose on me. I'm raging out of control!

When I lived in Chicago in the 70's and 80's, there were endless laws about when and where a pickup truck could be in various neighborhoods. Any street labled 'parkway', was forbidden territory. After sunset, pickups could not be parked in residential neighborhoods, on the street. Nor on a driveway. They had to be inside a garage, not visible to the public. This was to protect people from the possibility of being associated with 'tradespeople'.

Chicago had a very complicated set of rules governing the minimum temperature to be provided in apartments from Oct thru Mar. A late freeze in April, well too bad. No obligation to provide heat. The system was designed with the idea that everyone was in bed by nine at night, up at four. Landlords were permitted to turn off the heat at 9:30 or 10, in a Chicago winter.

AIR, plasterboard was finally allowed in construction in the early 70's. Prior to that everything had to be plastered, by union plasterers.

GOP: House fires were much more common back then

You lose. Bye!

Bob, Libertarian does not equal anarchist. To pick the most obvious difference. Libertarians want government to secure property rights and contracts.

Anon:

I'm perfectly well-aware of that. At the end of the day, though, anarchy rules because the strong lord over the weak, larger fiscal entities crush their less-funded opponents in courts of law.

Anarchy is an empirical description; Anarchism is a political philosophy.

Anarchy is the practical result of either strict Libertarian policy or anarchist abandonment of government.

Bob

Bob,
What I think you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that libertarianism must lead to anarchy.

Anon:

Obviously, pure Libertarian communities have never existed. But in the prototypes from literature -- most notably Galt's Gultch from Atlas Shrugged -- the community was entirely self-selected for the pure genius-types or self-motivated movers and shakers. But for Libertarianism to be successful beyond the level of a commune of the like-minded -- then yes, at the end of the day I think it would devolve into anarchy.

To the extent that it managed to avoid anarchy would be the precise extent it would violate its Libertarian principles by beefing up various enforcement powers of the government.

Bob

"The Republican Response to Hammurabi's code:"

Ok, that was simply mindblowing.

Wow.

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