Ah, Kevin.

Just like Mr. Gingrich said: the Democrats are going to take this issue and accuse the Republicans of gay-bashing.

This was being dealt with by the Congressional leadership. There was no other reason for making this public than pure politics.

And you guys wonder why you keep losing elections.

He makes good points, albeit on a minor issue that is taking far too much ink. About the topic, though, Rove would give his left one to see this particular venal shoe on the other (our) foot.

Popcorn, please. This looks like a good movie.

Part of me is distressed that the GOP could lose not because of spending recklessness, corruption, torture, big government, pork, and a hideously botched war ...

Sully forgot the Constitution!!

Oh, Andy. As soon as W walks around with a codpiece again, I'm sure you'll come back to Hawk, Al, and me.

So this excuses the efforts of some to out gay Republicans?
IOKIYAD, I guess.

This was being dealt with by the Congressional leadership.

How many more "Friedmans" was it going to be before the leadership dealt with this?

Kick 'em when they are up.
Kick 'em when they are down.
Kick 'em when they are up.
Kick 'em when they are down.
Kick 'em when they are up.
Kick 'em when they are down.
Kick 'em when they are up.
Kick 'em when they are down.

This was being dealt with by the Congressional leadership. There was no other reason for making this public than pure politics.

Actually it wasn't being dealt with by Congressional leadership, which knew about it for at least one and probably two years. That's why it's a scandal. If they'd dealt with it when they first learned what was going on, this would have been over a long time ago and would have had zero impact on the election.

Sullivan's not saying the Republicans are gay-bashing on this case. He's saying they've gay-bashed for so long, with such frenzy, that now the fact that this guy is gay is biting them in the ass with their base. And he's right. If you don't want to get hit with anti-gay backlash from the people who voted you in, don't get them to vote for you based on their hatred of gays in the first place.

egbert,

The scandal was made public by a GOP House aide followed by an investigation by ABC, an investigation like the one the Congressional leadership ought to have done a year ago. Also, the situation was in no way being delt with by the Congressional leadership, there wasn't even an investigation a year ago, that's why it is a scandal.

Also, this is not, except superficially, a sex scandal. This is a leadership scandal. The problem was one that was clearly the responsibility of the Congressional leadership, and clearly within their power to handle. Yet they were able to do nothing, to solve the problem until it became a huge public issue.

Hey, sorry to be dense, but I'm having trouble parsing the snark. What's a "Sullivan Award" supposed to be? I know Andrew Sullivan has a somewhat grating habit of handing out ironic awards to those he disagrees with, and I grasp that Kevin's joke is meant to be a play on that. But I'm not getting the particulars of the ha-ha.

I think this is going to hurt the Democrats, really bad! They may lose 200 or 300 seats over this! This is REALLY BAD for the Dems! REALLY BAD. Did I say it was REALLY BAD?

Yes, Kevin, Sullivan occupies a higher rung of Republicanism because he's always acknowledged certain realities. But he still hasn't hesitated to espouse the following talking points:
1) The Democrats are just as bad;
2) we're not talking about actual sex [so far], but abuse of power;
3) And even if we were talking about actual sex, the age of consent is 16;
4) Lusting for under-aged flesh is part of the hetero culture as much as it is with homosexuals;
5) Gay people, who have been victims of bigotry forever, are only human;
6) Can't we all calm down and focus on real issues "like, er, war, torture, habeas corpus, crippling fiscal recklessness, climate change, and terrorism?"

The Democrats are responsible for homophobia.

By promoting the gay lifestyle, they ensured that gayness would be in everyone's face 24-7. This evoked a normal healthy aversion in the American psyche.

If they'd just let gays live quietly and discretely like they used to, none of this would have happened.

I'd be the last person to impugn the moral fiber of GOP pages, but Foley would be pretty dumb to keep doing this for 11 years, if it hadn't worked at least once or twice.

So far we've heard from the ones it hasn't worked on. The pages it worked on are probably in cushy jobs at some obscure congressional agency, some favor seeking federal agency, the RNC, or some lobby shop that feeds money to Foley (A going away present as they just got too old.)

They shouldn't be that hard to find...

Andrew Sullivan is an immigrant, homosexual, bare back seeking advertiser, and a Republican.

He should be the poster boy for every Republican candidate.

More boys come forward
Three More Former Pages Accuse Foley of Online Sexual Approaches
October 05, 2006 5:20 PM
Brian Ross, Rhonda Schwartz & Maddy Sauer Report:
Three more former congressional pages have come forward to reveal what they call "sexual approaches" over the Internet from former Congressman Mark Foley.
The pages served in the classes of 1998, 2000 and 2002. They independently approached ABC News after the Foley resignation through the Brian Ross & the Investigative Team's tip line on ABCNews.com. None wanted their names used because of the sensitive nature of the communications.
"I was seventeen years old and just returned to [my home state] when Foley began to e-mail me, asking if I had ever seen my page roommates naked and how big their penises were," said the page in the 2002 class.
The former page also said Foley told him that if he happened to be in Washington, D.C., he could stay at Foley's home if he "would engage in oral sex" with Foley....

Those funny 'publicans and their pranks. They're a Gay Old Party, just why do they have anti-gay marriage amendments in 7 states this year? Are they being hypocritical? Nahh, never.

but Foley would be pretty dumb to keep doing this for 11 years, if it hadn't worked at least once or twice.

Perhaps. But sex and intelligence don't always walk hand-in-hand.

This was being dealt with by the Congressional leadership. There was no other reason for making this public than pure politics.Posted by: egbert

Fuck you, egbert, and the Monica Lewinsky your ilk rode in on. Payback's a bitch, bitch.

"So this excuses the efforts of some to out gay Republicans?"

No, dear, you don't understand.

See, they're supposed to DECIDE not to be gay. That's what the Pedophile Party has been telling us--i.e., there's no such thing as evolution so everything is God's fault, except in the case of those who are poor or those who are gay. In those instances it's ALL THEIR FAULT.

By the way, this doesn't have anything to do with homosexuals. It has to do with pedophilia.

Foley is wired up wrong.

Fake Al: If they'd just let gays live quietly and discretely like they used to, none of this would have happened.

But Fake Al, that's the problem: the Republican leadership was content to let Foley get his rocks off with congressional pages. Secrecy wasn't ending anything -- just emboldened it and thereby promoted it. Doesn't sound like the responsible thing to me.

egbert:

This was being dealt with by the Congressional leadership.

Hahahahahahaha!

Kevin, do you give an award for delivering comedy gold with a straight face?

Yeah, yeah, mustn't feed the trolls....

This scandal also seems to be indicating that the Drudge-O-Matic 9000 Information Disseminator is as innacurrate as it is hyperbolic.

I hope the news pinheads stop listening to, and reading Drudge constantly because of it.

Kudos to Andrew for laying out his reasons for supporting Kerry in 2004. (And for directing me and other readers to the site "John Kerry is a Douchebag but I'm voting for him anyway" which hailed from Texas; unfortunately since taken down. More cogent reasoning on what a disaster a second GW Bush administration would be -- sadly borne out.)

We need to reward those GOPers who write well and can think out of the box!!

Kevin,

I think the worst part of this whole thing, is the nakedness of the lying by the republican officials. All this time we gave them credit for standing for something. We may not have agreed with what they stood for, but we could respect their consistent adherence. Now they are showing the world what they really believe.

All the ire and outrage of previous eras was really just no more than part of a show to these people. What we thought was principle was just a facade to cover a collective and revulsive dearth of character. It is no wonder the modern republicans embrace Limbaugh and Coulter- because they're all in the same business of angry naked deception!

Disgusting and Shameful.

That does it - I'm going to ask shortstop to ask her mom to vote for Hastert again. Dems need that man in office!

Andrew Sullivan is an immigrant, homosexual, bare back seeking advertiser, and a Republican. He should be the poster boy for every Republican candidate. Posted by: Hostile

You forgot anti-abortion papist.

Actually, I think he's the poster boy for self-loathing homosexuals. At the very least, he's been a useful idiot for the better part of five years for people, most of who, wouldn't lift a finger if they witnessed him being bashed on the street.

The word AI was looking for was "discreetly" - quietly, not attacting attention - not "discretely" - which means solitary, alone.
These are two different words.

Andrew Sullivan is not totally an immigrant - he is a UK citizen, not an American. He lives and works here.

The word AI was looking for was "discreetly" - quietly, not attacting attention - not "discretely" - which means solitary, alone.

- hopeless pedant at 7:17 PM

I know exactly what I said. Homosexuals should practice their perversion alone.

no any actual sex...

BUT it was sexual harrassment, and that is enough, especially if you read WHAT ABC has up on it's site, to know why Hastert hates them for the truth they so glaringly produce. Foley was one sick man. The truth is VERY ugly and I couldn't even read the whole sick thing message.

Hastert HAD to have known, but he didn't say anything or do anything, and all these pages are starting to come forward, 3 more now - it's really gross too, what the have to say, and I certain these kids would say something to their parents, and the parents to Hastert's office, it's too much to have been ignored so FOX News must be right about Hastert needed to step down.

Hey, look everybody! The House Ethics Committee is actually going to investigate something! Hey, look everybody! It only took them six da...years.

I know exactly what I said. Homosexuals should practice their perversion alone. Posted by: Al

Um, Al, that would be, as I'm sure you are probably more familiar with than anyone else here, masturbation, which is what characterizes your posts as well.

It's quite interesting to note the comical overtones of the constantly recurring phenonomenon of the liberals' embrace of anyone - a conservative columnist like Sullivan, an anti-American firebrand like Hugo or a crazed man like Ahmedinezad - anyone indeed, so long as the hugging leads to the validation of their unhinged denunciations of George W. Bush or his Party that represents all Americans who value very highly the tradition, the culture, and the morals of this great nation.

Americans who value very highly the tradition, the culture, and the morals of this great nation.

Yeah, morals like boinking Junior. I'm afraid you wingnuts have for too long mixed up "morals" and "moralizing".

Why are you guys responding to posts clearly and openly posted by an artificial "intelligence" (AI) ? Encouraging this sort of computer generated ejaculate will just speed the demise of the blogs.

Homosexuals should practice their perversion alone. Posted by: Al

...because you wouldn't want to do it with others until you've practiced and got really good at it. Gotta get your chops down first, learn a few moves.

I really hope it's true. I hope it happens.

Time to end the hypocrisy and mendacity.

The Anarcho-Capitalist wing of the Republican party is Ideologically Incompatible with the Fundamentalist Religious Wing.

(to quote Jesus - it's something about "one cannot serve two masters").

So if the Republicans are choosing Religious Wingnuttery, they're going to have to be honest with this base, and abandon the Anarcho-Capitalists.

not because of spending recklessness, corruption, torture, big government, pork, and a hideously botched war ... but because of a sex scandal

It is not either/or. It is all of a piece. All of these things reveal a contempt for the rest of us, and indifference to anything but their own appetites -- whether for money, power, or underage children.

I think one of the reasons this is striking such a chord with the public is that most of us intuitively grasp this. This is the final abuse. It is emblematic.

It's quite interesting to note the comical overtones of the constantly recurring phenonomenon of the liberals' embrace of anyone - a conservative columnist like Sullivan, . . . Posted by: Jay

Clueless as usual, troll-boy. No one here embraces Sullivan. I'd say that most of us here think he's an idiot.

They say the Gods hate hubris above all else, and look for it when they wish to drive a man to ruin.

Hm.

This whole cluster f*** has turned into a metaphore for the "leadership" of the repigs.

"There was no other reason for making this public than pure politics."

When was the last time a leading Republican did anything for any reason other than pure politics? Hell, whole wars started, tens of thousands killed, all for reasons of pure politics, and you begrudge the other side a little innocent shadenfreude over your little child molesting problem?

(Well, I take that back--they do things for sex, and for money, too)

I accept your clarification AI.
And boy am I glad you jumped at the bait (not bate..)

If the GOP can't control their own House members behavior with minors AFTER they've been informed, it shows they do not deserve the responsibility of majority control of that chamber. It is as simple as that.

Al, YOU should practice your perversions alone. But I guess it's just in the nature of your sickness that you feel you have to share it with people who can easily see what an emotionally and intellectually stunted person you are. But, hey, we're tolerant people.

And Egbert, gotta love the logic of
"There was no other reason for making this public than pure politics. And you guys wonder why you keep losing elections."

YOU and the other trolls under the bridge never respond to the substance of any argument but inevitably, and I mean always, rely on the you-guys-lose approach as a discussion stopper.

So that leaves us with one big question: when your heroes get their asses handed to them in November, will you be willing to take any of the blame? I mean, if winning is the only thing that makes you feel okay about yourselves (and I doubt if America has ever seen a meaner set of sore winners) what will you do when Diebold lets you down?

George W. Bush or his Party that represents all Americans who value very highly the tradition, the culture, and the morals of this great nation

Oof.

Excuse me while I throw up.

A great writer you're not, Jaybird.

3) And even if we were talking about actual sex, the age of consent is 16;

yeah - except for the log I posted on the last thread, where Maf54 was clearly promising alcohol to a definitely under-21 boy.

Kenji, they'll find a way to blame it all on....(take your pick_)

Evolution
Bill Clinton
illegal immigrants
secular values
video games
50 cent
porn
______________(your choice here)

We know that Bush blames Sex & the City and the Beatles, "after they got weird".

If

a) It is shown that Foley's conduct moved beyond mere communication and/or

b) It is shown that there were other GOP members of Congress besides Hastert involved

then

the GOP is royally fucked next month. If not, then it's going to be hard to make the charges stick that the GOP leadership "wasn't protecting our children" (or whatever the official Dem talking points are). After all, if neither a nor b transpired, then, by all accounts, the GOP leadership did prevent any harm coming to the pages, and in fact what we have here is a case of a single, solitary, pervert who's now an ex-representative, and who's now being actively investigated by his own party.

Full disclosure: I've been out of the country for a week -- just got back this afternoon -- and so maybe I'm not up to speed on what's going on. But it seems like there's not really much "there" there -- at least not in comparison with huge issues like Iraq and the economy.

Full disclosure: I've been out of the country for a week -- just got back this afternoon -- and so maybe I'm not up to speed on what's going on. But it seems like there's not really much "there" there -- at least not in comparison with huge issues like Iraq and the economy. Posted by: 99

It seems there is a great deal of there there. Head over to http://talkingpointsmemo.com/ to get a lot more detail.

But, 99, Americans don't care that much about Iraq, the economy, torture-as-policy, or the sacking of the constitution. This is sex, baby, and that they get.

Kenji, they'll find a way to blame it all on . . . 50 cent. Posted by: The Mgmt

I'd be willing to blame it on 50 Cent(s) just on principle.

Andrew Sullivan is an immigrant, homosexual, bare back seeking advertiser, and a Republican.

Except, um, he's not. He's not a citizen and can't vote, and he's certainly not a member of any political party. He's stated in the past that he could never call himself a Democrat, but he couldn't call himself a Republican either (except in the "South Park Republican" sense, and I suspect most people who identify that way aren't registered Republicans either). Sullivan is most certainly a Tory, however.

I admit that Sullivan's temporary embrace of the GOP after 9/11 was infuriating, but his social views have always been mostly libertarian and haven't really changed much. The warmongering was a result of this; he viewed the Islamists as a much worse threat to a free, open society than the Republicans, and I agree with him. I do, however, think Sullivan was an idiot for ever thinking that Bush was the right man for the job.

Sullivan's frequent intellectual incoherence is fair cause for criticism, but it's childish to misrepresent his views and writings, which I suspect the majority of posters here haven't bothered to read in depth. Along with some very wrong-headed stuff, he's written some terrific essays that any good liberal should appreciate, and his writings on gay rights (especially marriage) have had a significant impact on public discourse.

As for the bare-backing, at least he's honest about his HIV status

Kevin,

You and your supporters on this site live in some kind of alternate reality.

Of course, neither Kevin Drum nor Sully seem able to take this to the next level, asking why the Dems are now jumping on the tiger. If riding the tiger is bad, shouldn't Dems condemn their leadership for trying to take it for a ride?

Meanwhile, here's the new Democratic Party Newswire.

Color me unimpressed about the effect this story will have on the midterm elections. With the resignation of Foley and the starting of the investigations by the FBI and the Ethics Committee, this story will be forgotten within a week or two. The idea that the GOP voters, who are accused by Sullivan of being homophobic, are going to punish the "anti-gay" party by allowing the "pro-gay" party to gain power and who would enact the gay agenda faster than Monica going on down on Billy Boy is laughable.

The base maybe homophobic in Sullivan's view, but if there is one thing they fear more is the Dems being in control of Congress.

And if there are pages who have had relations with Foley or any other Congressmen, GOP or Dem, let them come forward. In the view of the homophobic GOP base, the exposure and removal of all gays from Capitol Hill would be a positive outcome to this scandal.

Chicounsel:

You miss the point.

Ken Mehlman's microtargeting has developed a cadre of voters who have tended to be disaffected, respond to issues morally and emotionally, and whose intense cynicism makes cultivation and stroking by the GOP GOTV machine essential to get them to the polls at all. These folks nominally identify themselves as Christian voters or Libertarian-leaning Republicans -- but they're only a subset of values voters or responsible Lib-leaners.

Call them the disenfrenchfried. They've been the key to GOP success at the polls in the last two presidential elections.

These folks will simply become disgusted, apply no strategic analysis (like responsible Republicans would) and express their disgust at the GOP leadership by staying home from the polls. No amount of fright rhetoric about Madame Speaker Nancy Pelosi or terrorists or losing Iraq will make a dime's bit of difference to these types who until a very few years ago didn't vote at all.

Bob

In the view of the homophobic GOP base, the exposure and removal of all gays from Capitol Hill would be a positive outcome to this scandal.
Posted by: Chicounsel on October 5, 2006 at 8:46 PM | PERMALINK

Exactly.

This is a "come to jesus" moment for the republican party.

They have to either "hug the tar-baby" and show their true homophobic colors (and then lose the center, who are nervous about the party falling into the hands of the radical right), or they have to weasel out of it (and lose the center - who's disgruntled at incumbency in general, and overall corruption and coverups and scandal). But in either case, they need to do it to avoid the real issue - that they covered up the scandal. (which is a scandal in of itself, irregardless if anything illegal happened - which by now, it's clear that there was severe and blatant law-breaking; even if the boys were "of legal age" - they weren't legal to drink, and there's the pesky "online predator" thing).

The Democrats don't really need to do anything here, other than to prevent the Republicans from trying to pin the blame on them for their own problems. So far, there are two arguments in support of that:
Vast-left-wing-conspiracy-theory (which worked so well for Hillary in 1997). and
Dems did it too. Which, in fact, is a stronger argument, and I believe if the Republicans are smart, they'll stick to that one. Otherwise they'll risk turning off the center even more.

Why do Congressional pages hate America?

The warmongering was a result of this; he viewed the Islamists as a much worse threat to a free, open society than the Republicans, and I agree with him.

I disagree.

Islamists don't have nukes, nor radar-invisible bombers, nor control of the world's largest defense budget. Nor FoxNews.

In a sane world, a guy like Sullivan wouldn't be too bad. He'd be the loyal opposition. You'd disagree with him (most of the time), but you'd have some respect for him.

We don't live in a sane world.

OBF:

Unless this new *cough* Ethics Committee investigation fingers some Democratic perps, I don't think the "Dems did it, too" argument holds any water at all if the Reps are going to weild it by bringing up past history.

I think it too obviously looks like a diversion -- and the sine qua non of not taking responsibility.

"He did it too, Mommy!" is a line known to every parent with multiple children in the world.

Bob

"And if he jumped off a bridge/cliff/the Empire State Building, would you do it too?" is the response of every parent when a kid tries that crap. That BS landed my kids in hotter and deeper water than the original offense.

Bob - are you running Linux?

"He did it too, Mommy!" is a line known to every parent with multiple children in the world.
Posted by: rmck1 on October 5, 2006 at 9:08 PM | PERMALINK

Well, this argument worked very well for them in the past. Both on the Torture issue, and frankly, if you go back to 2004, and look at the military service issue - Kerry, decorated veteran, sent home early due to purple hearts. Bush, sleazy TANG dodge, ducked out early, not clear if he was AWOL, and teh Dan Rather.

"Dems are worse" also works as a good counter to the Diebold argument. People are buying it. Not just the righty base. But the center is too.

The problem (for the Republicans) is - polls have been strongly ANTI incumbent over the past year. In Congress, anyway.

Republicans have this delicate balancing act of three constituencies: Monied interests - Religious wingnut (tax fraud) money - and the duped Center, who has, for the past few elections, fallen for the bullshit that the Republicans serve them, not the religious wingnuts, and not the monied interests (in part, because the Center has become monied UNDER CLINTON, and because of the spread of evangelism in the past 10 years).

The Evangelism-thing will burn itself out. Because it's at least partly driven by this "end-times" crap, and the fact that we just passed the year 2000. (the real y2k bug was not that all the computers would go crazy - the REAL Y2K bug is that the evangelicals all went crazy). In a couple years, the Armchair Eschatologists will realize that the world is not coming to an end this time either, and they'll crawl back under their rocks.

The Anarcho-Capitalist thing will also burn itself out, after the monied interests finish dining on the upper-half of the middle-class.

Then there wont be enough in the Center that will still fall for Republican Bullshit.

The hardcore Evangelicals and Anarcho-Capitalists, will, of course, always be there. And of course, even though they are ideologically at odds (ie. a TRUE Christian scriptural inerrantist would want all commerce on Sunday banned, and, of course, USURY as well). Because both of these consituencies are GULLIBLE IDIOTS by their very nature - they'll always be giving their money to Republicans

But this time around, the Republicans are going to have to either put up or shut up with the hardcore Evangelicals on their homophobia. And if they do that - they'll lose the center. Which they've already very likely lost. My fear was that the Repubs were going to put away the gay-bashing for this election, and sacrifice the tiny fraction of the evangelicals for the big hunk of the Center they hope to win back via FearMongering (NK nuclear test hysteria, and Iran hysteria). But now they've lost some of their homophobia credibility with the evangelicals, and they've lost their competence credibility with the center (because of the cover-up).

It looks like they're going to follow their instincts (wedge politics) and try to play the homophobe card, in which case, they're going to get their asses kicked because they're going to even further alienate the center.

If they can somehow regain credibility by pinning this whole thing on Dems (Dems did it too!) then I think they will almost definitely sacrifice Hastur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastur) - - er, Hastert. But in the process, this is going to alienate a lot of hardcore righties of the "good old boy" variety.

Their other hope, of course, is distraction. But this nation is pretty preoccupied with sex, so I don't think anything short of a full-on preemptive strike on Iran will do it. And if that happens, kiss $60/bbl oil goodbye.

PS. I take back what I said about the DJIA being all oil-driven. I think it's investment dollars being driven out of real-estate, and is just another sign of the bubble collapse, and was a result of high interest rates. Not much more than that going on there.

I am appalled, but not surprised, by the conservative reaction to La Cage Au Foley. Drudge, O'Reilly and many other members of the right-wing noise machine are spinning furiously that, "Hey, these kids were almost 18 and it's no big deal because there is no real sex involved and anyway, gays are obsessed with sex..."

Three points:

(1) Being gay does not equate to being a pedophile, just like being heterosexual doesn't mean you want to have sex with underage girls. Pedophilia is predatory and is predicated on domination and humiliation, not love or mutual attraction. Victims of pedophilia are also at high risk of becoming pedophiles themselves, due to the trauma of the submissive/domination experience. Foley himself has said he was abused as a child.
(2) If Foley actively trolled the Internet seeking victims, you can bet your last dollar he has engaged in pedophiliac intercourse at some point in his life. It is likely only a matter of time before one of his victims comes forward.
(3) Just because 16 year old boys may look like men and seem quite mature, their brains are not fully developed and as a result, are not able to make rational decisions about their nascent sexuality and are at high risk of suffering long term psychosis as a result of being sexually abused by a 50+ yr. old man.

For those conservative assholes who try to shrug this very serious crime off, I ask you, "What if it was your son/nephew/grandson/cousin???"

Global Citizen:

Indirectly, yes. My ISP account is a unix shell.

Bob

Global Citizen:

Or more accurately, FreeBSD -- which has Unix-compatible structures.

My box is completely irrelevant as nothing touches my HD (including cookies) unless I choose to download it from my scratch space on the server.

Bob

but because of a sex scandal which doesn't even have (so far as we know) any actual sex.

Not that we know about yet, but I think we are about to hear a lot of true stories.

Anyone notice that 24 American were killed in Iraq over three days lately? WTF, let's get on with the priority issue.

Anyone notice that 24 American were killed in Iraq over three days lately? WTF, let's get on with the priority issue.
Posted by: Wes on October 5, 2006 at 10:07 PM | PERMALINK

You go into elections with the Media Circus you have. Not the one you'd like.

Honestly, it would be refreshing if FoxNews would cut away from the Foley scandal to start talking about the serious situation in Iraq. No such luck.

THIS JUST IN...

Hastert Begins Damage Control
House Speaker Reportedly Tells Conservative Activist That Majority Leader Boehner Isnt Telling the Truth

...Not all Hastert's efforts at damage control took place in front of the cameras. Hastert has been fighting to save his job amid numerous reports that Hastert, his staff and the GOP leadership ignored previous warnings about former Rep. Mark Foley, R-Fla., and his inappropriate behavior with congressional pages, who were high school age. Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, has claimed that he told Hastert earlier this year about inappropriate e-mails Foley sent to one page.

Conservative activist Paul Weyrich, president of the Free Congress Foundation, told ABC News that in a private phone conversation Hastert "assured me that Congressman Boehner had never, ever talked to him about this."

If you got over to Atrios and read link to ABC news - you will be shock, very shock at what Foley was doing according to ABC news and Foley was asking for pictures of pages' penis and for them to stay at his house.

NOW as a mother of a older teenage son, I know that parents would have HAD a cow over this kind of thing and that their child WOULD have told them something along the lines of, "hey Mom this 50-year-old man is asking for a photo of my penis."

So there is Absolutely NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT HASTERT IS A LIAR. I mean, the pages are coming out of the woodwork and there is certainly more than one page who was stalked by Foley.

Denny is going to have to step down, end of story and that is why Repugs won't touch him with 10 foot pole and why FOX news is saying that Denny will be going bye-bye.

The Conservative Deflator on October 5, 2006 at 9:32 PM

that was pretty good.

OBF: I take back what I said about the DJIA being all oil-driven. I think it's investment dollars being driven out of real-estate, and is just another sign of the bubble collapse, and was a result of high interest rates.

A few days ago I wrote that it was people re-balancing their portfolios in light of current high profits in business. We basically agree, but I wrote it a little more positively.

this is a delusional conclusion (kevin and Andrerw perfect together).

It would only be karmic or just rewards if republicans lost BECAUSE of their gay bashing. But that's not what's happening here. republicans are in trouble here due to every day garden variety republican hypocrisy and cynicism. And their usual hypocrisy and cynicism will hurt all the more in this case because of the widespread homophobia.
.

and Josh Marshall sez...Lieberman: Let's stand by Hastert in his hour of need.

Yeah, Christain right, and young pages move out of the way, Loserman sure did called that one wrong.

THIS isn't over yet, poor Loserman, always the last one to know about this stuff, always out of the loop.

Jeebus, Lieberman is such a pervert.

3) And even if we were talking about actual sex, the age of consent is 16;

In the District of Columbia, which isn't where all of the face-to-face contacts indicated in the communications occurred.

Cheryl:

Hehe -- let's see if JoeMentum's polls start to drop after that remark ...

Bob

cmdicely:

The "age of consent defense" is a total laff riot.

Like it's going to make any difference at all *politically* whether these kids were street legal at the time.

This is a 52-year-old man who knew them at least a year previous to the contact.

The FBI calls that "grooming behavior" and, though not actionable in itself, is considered a serious red flag when tracking adults suspected of nailing underagers.

Bob

These folks will simply become disgusted, apply no strategic analysis (like responsible Republicans would) and express their disgust at the GOP leadership by staying home from the polls.

Or by voting for one of the libertarian or christianist (as appropriate) third-party candidates, which practically amounts to the same thing in the end. Sure, they still probably prefer the GOP to the Democrats, but its not my fault we don't have a preference voting system...

Like it's going to make any difference at all *politically* whether these kids were street legal at the time.

Depends who knew what and how they worked to conceal it; I suppose that it might make a difference if (to pick an extreme possibility) federal indictments were handed down before the election against members of the House leadership as accessories-after-the-fact to Mann Act violations by Foley.

cmdicely:

Holy Worst Case Scenario, BatPerson ! :):):) One can always dream ...

Did you catch the piece in the TimesMag a couple weeks ago on Mehlman? It was very revealing about microtargeting. The sort of voters I'm thinking of who were described in the piece aren't likely to express their disgust at the leadership by voting at all. They're already marginal voters as it is.

I spent a goodly amount of time in the 80s canvassing professionally for various social change and electoral groups. I know this sort of person pretty well. They aren't necessarily stupid, but they do tend to be a little crazy. Their biggest motivator is outrage; their favorite rebuttal is the word NO. These types were too busy casting wide-angle aspersions to vote for anybody in that era, but apparently Mehlman has become quite skilled at harvesting them with exquisitely targeted mailings. They live to hate things and are the primary recipient of the cultural wars/gay-bashing GOP memes.

If the GOP looks like a nest of gay enablers protecting Foley (the Fordham/Boenher revelations), then these peoples' heads are going to veritably explode with disgust. Nothing feels more skeevy than the hands of a stroker (Mehlman's ego-stroking microtargeting outreach) once his motives are revealed to be entirely perverted ...

Bob

It's really too bad that there's no liberal MSM in this country, because if there Were, it could get out the math behind the news: The number of Democrats involved in the Abramoff corruption of the US Congress is 0, and the number of Democrats involved in the Republican Gay Republican Pedophile Republican harassment Republican Abuse of Republican Power is 0. I guess I didn't count J. Lieberman in this, but it isn't nice to make fun of the unhinged.

When you see a bumper-sticker that says 'Vote NO on Everything" it is attached to the car of a person exactly like Bob just described.

These ar the folks who a few years ago were in a tizzy about black helicopters and declared themselves "sovereign citizens" unbeholden to the government that builds the roads they drove the 4-wheel-drive pickups they refused to buy tags for on.

The Republicans will bash gays, Clinton, Satan and persecution of the majority in general.

These are the guys who decided to use the definition of "evil" as an election strategy.

Is this brilliant? Absolutely. Is it reckless and amoral? So say the terrorists.

..................^^..................................................................................................................

Whoa, is that Rabbit?

Global Citizen:

Exactly. And the supporters of the militia movement, the shudderers at the New World Order after the Gulf War (remember those guys?), the harborers of sympathy for Randall Terry and abortion clinic terrorist "martyrs," the Waco and Ruby Ridge outrage groupies, and the "common law" (sovereign Article III citizen) zanies who believed that they didn't need to have license plates because the little strip on the bottom of the American flags in municipal traffic courts meant that they were under admiralty jurisdiction (FDR suspended the Constituion in 1933, you see).

I used to debate with these crazed idiots on a nationally networked FidoNet BBS in the mid-90s ...

Mehlman has somehow managed to woo a goodly percentage of them into the GOP.

Heh and Double Heh :)

Bob

In the District of Columbia, which isn't where all of the face-to-face contacts indicated in the communications occurred.
Posted by: cmdicely on October 5, 2006 at 10:37 PM | PERMALINK

Yes - what IS the age of consent in San Diego?

Never mind that. The appropriate question is; What IS the penalty for providing a minor with alcholol?

When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person's thoughts simultaneously. Because of it's infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe. And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.

Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience (there is NO FREEWILL for the oblivious/uncooperative disfavored). It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal's behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously.
Or into the center of stars for disposal.

When you speak with another telepathically, you are communicating with the computer, and the content may or may not be passed on. Based on family history they instruct the computer to role play to accomplish strategic objectives, making people believe it is a friend, loved one or "god" asking them to do something wrong. This is their way of using temptation to hurt people in this day and age:::::evil made people disfavored initially and evil will keep people out of "heaven" ultimately. Too many people would do anything they thought pleased the gods and improve their chances to get in. Perhaps they are deceived by "made guys" who strategically ply evil for the throne, or temporary progress designed to mislead them. The people have been corrupted.
Being evil hurts 99% of those who do it. But nothing has changed from when we were children::if you want to go to heaven you have to be good.

Capitalizing on obedience, leading people deeper into evil by using deceit is one way to thin the ranks of the saved, limiting how much time they receive and using the little people to prey on one another, dividing the community (migration to the suburbs, telepathic communication) in the Age of the Disfavored.
In each of their 20-30-year cycles during the 20th century they have ramped up claims sucessively to punish those foolish enough not to heed the warnings, justifying (frequently recurring tactic) limiting the time they receive if they do make it, utilizing a cycle of war and revelry:::
60s - Ironically, freeways aren't free
80s - Asked people to engage in evil in the course of their professional duties.
00s - Escallation of real estate. You and your parents are thrilled since your $200,000 house is now worth $1 million. Well, that $5,000,000 store is now worth $25,000,000 and that $50 bundle of goods now costs you $250. They just take the $200 out of you some other way.

There are many more examples throughout 20th century life of how they ramped up claims/instilled distractions into society so people wouldn't find their way and ascend, a way to justify excluding those whose family history of evil makes them undesirable:::radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, the internet and MP3 (must pay for new format each time). They all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth's end stage, and there are clues tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy's boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, it's axis rotated on its side.
The Mayans were specific 2012 would be the end. How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???

They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex. The earth's elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent.
The gods are paving the way for the Apocolypse.
Nothing has changed from decades ago, since when we were all children::If you want to go to heaven you have to be good. People were misled by the temptation of the gods, became corrputed and now are in trouble.
One day you will be abandoned in spite of your obedience and you will fall into desperation. Remember what you read for that day WILL come::People will be punished for their evil.

The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going.
They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent's time as well.
Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision.
They suggest abortion is fatal. These women must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil.
There are female eqivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women give their precious virginity away. In the Old World the young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders who knew personalities better than 20 or 30-year olds who in today's age end up in divorce court.
CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It masculinizes women (as does hip hop), makes them cold and deadens them, and prevents them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend.
Women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates a potential for love that makes them better, and enaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks.
Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the "bad boy", and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life.
Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things)::they cover up their women's bodies and prohibit the use of cosmetics.
Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts.
The "stereotype" society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corruptable.

The United States of America is red white and blue, a theme and a clue:::.
The monarchical system of the Old World closley replicates the heirarchical system of the Cousel/Management Team/ruling species. The USA deceives peoeple into thinking they have control, and the perception of "freedom" misleads them at least into the wrong way of thinking.
The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::gun violence, widespead social ills, health care (medication poisons the body and ensures you don't go. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.). Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.

If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce while their children grow up without an important role model.

People must defy when asked to engage in evil. They will never get a easier clue suggesting the importance of defiance than the order not to pray.
Their precious babies are dependant on the parents and they need to defy when asked to betray their children:::
-DON'T get your sons circumcized
-DON'T have their children baptized in the Catholic Church or indoctrinated into Christianity (Jesus is NOT a god).
-DON'T ignore their long hair or other behavioral disturbances.
-DO teach your children love, respect for others, humility and to honor the gods.

You need to pray, honor and respect them every day to improve your relationship with the gods. If they tell you not to it is a bad sign. it means they've made their decision, they don't want you to go and they don't want to be bothered.
This is the Age of the Disfavored and you need to pray::try to appease the gods by doing good deeds. If that doesn't work you must defy if you want to go.
When your peasant forefather was granted the rare opportunity to go before his royal family he went on his knees, bowing his head. You need to do this when you address the gods::bow down and submit to good. Never cast your eyes skyward. When you bow down you need to look within.
Lack of humility hurts people. Understand your insignificance and make sure it is reflected in the way you think when addressing the gods. Know your place and understand your inferiority.
They granted you life and they can take it just as easily.
Don't get frustrated or discouraged::these are techniques they will attempt to try to get you off the path. You all have much to be thankful for and you need to give thanks to the gods who granted you the good things in life. Your family may be grossly disfavored and progress may require patience. Make praying an intregal part of your life which you perform without fail, one that comes as naturally as eating or sleeping.
There are many interesting experiences up on the planetary systems, from Planet Miracle, where miracles happen every day, to other body experinces, such as experiencing life as the opposite sex (revolutionizes marriage counseling) or as an Olympic gold medal athelete.
Pray that you can differentiate between your own thoughts and when Artificial Intelligence creates problems by thinking through you. If you bow down mentally and physically, know your place, your inferiority and allow your insignificance to be reflected in prayer and in your life through humility they may allow progress and the dysfunctions they create with the computer will be lessened or removed.
Create a goal::to be a good child of the gods, pure of heart and mind, body and soul.
Everybody has the key to their own salvation, but nobody can do it for you. Every journey begins with a single step:::bow down and submit to good. There are many different levels and peasants will not get past Level 2 (Planet Temptation, Earth=Level 1) being evil.

They have tried to sell people on all kinds of theories, from clones to wholesale population replacement with clones. This didn't happen and is not realistic.
I am afraid people are decieved into thinking they too are clones and cooperate and engage in evil. Clones are made, people are born. If you didn't experience the one week they suggest it takes to go from fertilized egg in the laboratory to full grown adult then you are not a clone. If you didn't experience the week of conditioning they give to (evil?) clones to ensure loyalty then you shouldn't comply with evil.
I believe people who go sometimes are replaced with clones. Clones who are replaced are simply new candidates who have a chance if they do the right thing. Don't expect you are a clone. They sent people warnings in the 20th century life would change, and they subsequenlty began to alter people's DNA, make them gargantuan, alter their appearance, do extreme behavioral issues, etc.
They get their friends out as soon as possible to protect them from the evil and subsequent high claim rates incurred by living life on earth, and in some cases replace them with clones, occassionally fake a death, real death with a clone instead, etc. It's important that people fix their problems and ascend with the body given to them, for they say if your brain is beemed out and put into a clone host you are on the clock.

Throughout history the ruling species bestowed favor upon people or cursed their bloodline into a pattern of disfavor for many generations to come. Now in the 21st century people must take it upon themselves to try to correct their family's problems, undoing centuries worth of abuse and neglect. The goal is to fix your problems and get out BEFORE you have children. This is why they have created so many distractions for young people:::sports, video games, popular music, the internet::to ensure that doesn't happen.
Do your research. Appeal to the royalty of your forefathers for help. They are all still alive, for royalty has great favor, and your appeals will be heard. Obtain a sufficient list for some may not want to assist you; perhaps some of your family's problems are internal.
Ask them for help, request guidance, for somewhere in your family history one of your forefathers created an offense that cast your family into this pattern of disfavor. I suspect they will offer you clues, and when you decipher these clues go to those whom consider you an enemy and beg for foregiveness:::Find a path to an empithetic ear among your enemies and try to make amends.
Again through discovery obtain a respectable list in case some among them refuse to help.
Don't forget to ask for forgiveness from the throne, the Counsel and the Management Team, for the source of all disfavor began with them:::they pushed (NO FREEWILL) or requested/complied (FREEWILL) your forefather into his offense and made his decendants evil. Perhaps they didn't like him or maybe your family was among those who had to pay for the entire village. We see this type of behavior today as they single out a family member to pay for the whole family and how they singled out Africa to pay for the human race.
Heal the disfavor with your enemies and with the Counsel/Management Team/ruling species, for the source of all disfavor began with them, the ability to forgive and respect in light of the disturbing truth revealed being the final test of the disfavored before they ascend.

Just like Mr. Gingrich said: the Democrats are going to take this issue and accuse the Republicans of gay-bashing.

Dude, have you been living in a fucking snow cave for the past 6 years? There was GOP gay-bashing LONG before this scandal (as if you didn't notice that). You see, there was this election, for example, back in 2004 . . .

My hunch is that all of recent gay bashing from the GOP has been driven by Rove's own repressed homosexuality.

Just a hunch.

The one possible bright spot of this Mark Foley/gay bashing debacle is that it gives the Democrats the opportunity to put George W. Bush on the spot about his own homosexuality. Oh yes, Dubya is a self-hating closeted homosexual and that explains so much of his deviant criminal behavior all of his life.

A September 26th posting on Wayne Madsen’s blog alleges that Bush was sent to a crackpot gay “reprogramming” facility in El Paso, Texas called Worthy Creations by his parents in 1976. His sick mother, Babs, apparently just couldn’t deal with having a gay son, so she sent the already deeply emotionally scarred Dubya there.

College cheerleader George W. Bush’s long running homosexual relationship with Ambassador to Poland, Victor Ashe, has been alleged on other websites, such as here and here.

Democrats need to press George on why he continues to deny his homosexuality, even as his GOP brethren bash homosexuals and equate being gay with pedophilia. When will this sick man come clean?

Why would anyone be interested in what Andrew Sullivan has to say?

The meme that maybe there was "no sex" is crap. There have been direct references to past acts in the IMs (San Diego). There was the cybersex in the cloak room during an emergency war appropriation (to me, the most heinous thing an elected official could do, and a direct metaphor with how screwed up the Republicans really are), and there were the recent disclosures of sleep-overs for sex. Foley would not have been so prodigious at the the predation if he had been unsuccessful for 12-years. Nope, he had some deviant GOP sex.

And watch Olbermann's special comment today--either the rebroadcast or at Crooks and Liars. He says pretty much what needs to be said about these shameful GOP stooges. Time to take the country back.

betsch makes me miss slim...

"There was no sex" will not reduce the impact of this scandal. The GOP has committed that hoariest act of Washington suicide: getting caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. There's no way to escape. They keep thrashing, but the plastic handcuffs just get tighter.

If you don't think that "Power corrupts. Absolutely power corrupts absolutely," all you have to do is look at the Foley-Hastert scandal. There was talk of taking Foley's campaign contributions and giving it to another Republican group; Hastert wrote the letter to the FBI; why isn't an independent counsel called for when the fact is these were not rank and file, these were the Republican Party Leadership?

Hastert doesn't remember, Boehner wasn't sensitive to the nature of what was going on. These are the people who voted for a bill to do away with habeas corpus? These are the Leadership of the Party. These are corrupted politicians who don't ask, don't tell. I have come to agree that these people aren't Republicans at all but Liberals who "spend and spend" and "create bigger government." We do need a real third party, a conservative party that is compassionate, not the phony Republican Party that exists to feed the piggy snouts of those who now hold office. Let's get these smarmy guys out, Foley and Hastert and Boehner, and the Abramoff crew including Mr Bush who, you may remember, was good friends with Lay at Enron, and the forty (?) others who have been convicted eating our taxes and depleting our Treasury. Where is the surplus that Clinton, another dummy, left us? The sooner Bush is gone and a real conservative takes his place, the better; in the meantime the only hope is to balance these clowns off with a Democratic majority for the short term.

For those who still want to vote Republican, think, really think, about the alternative. Sure the Democrats are spineless and whimpy. But what you're proposing, not voting for them is playing the victim, and that seems to be the role they’ve assigned for yourselves. When you get over it, and strike back to reclaim the electorate by asking the hard questions and not dumbing down statements like “Bush lied today”, or “Bush made wildly conflicting statements today” or “Bush didn’t answer the question he was asked.” When this begins to happen, when influential people say, Stop the madness, they won’t be victims any more. So if you help Republicans in any way, by not voting or by not persuading your friends and family to vote, by not contributing to the Democrats, you'll be helping to promote a draft, long term war, destruction of this country as we know it, among other things too stupid to mention. So make sure the Democrats win this time around, and don't jawbone about it or prevaricate or think about how inept or stupid they are, just vote for them. Right now the Democrats are the only force that will balance off the Republican's march to a totalitarian state; they may become corrupt but it'll take some time for that to happen.

There was GOP gay-bashing LONG before this scandal (as if you didn't notice that). You see, there was this election, for example, back in 2004 . . .

Don't ask, don't tell...

Someone over at my place posted this:

A. Not internet predation. Foley was IMing people using his cell phone...

Like that is different? Is this guy the last person in left in America who hasn't gone wireless? My cell phone accesses the internet and came with AOL instant messenger as a feature. They accused the Big Dog of splitting hairs - looks like three are pointing back to me...

A. Not internet predation. Foley was IMing people using his cell phone...

Well, that's pretty ignorant of that poster.

First of all, it could very well be a transmission that takes place over the Internet.

A cellular network uses the Internet for transmitting some of its network information; this is done by using VoIP as the method of transmitting the network's backhaul. Instead of using a microwave connection, the backhaul is transmitted over the Internet, saving the cellular company money.

So, it could, in fact, have been a transmission that used the Internet and fell under the purview of the law Foley (aka, The Butt Pirate) wrote.

Yeah that's pretty dumb. All my friends with text messaging capabilities on their cells can send and receive email from me on my desktop.

Of course, you have to kinda radically truncate the lines, but ...

Obviously at least some (and probably all) text messages go out over the internet.

Bob

Yes - what IS the age of consent in San Diego?

18

Never mind that. The appropriate question is; What IS the penalty for providing a minor with alcholol?

It seems to be a small fine and forfeiture of driving privileges, but that may be because I am missing the specifically applicable law (all I can find that applies is the prohibition on minors drinking combined with the provision punishing accessories before the fact as principals; there might be a greater punishment if there is a contributing to the delinquency of a minor law that I'm missing.)

Of course, since it is a crime (however minor), if you can connect interstate transport of the minor to it, you can get a federal Mann Act violation, too, which is where the real fun starts.

Just to be clear, the above discussion relating to providing alcohol to a minor applies to the D.C. laws in that regard, which is where I seem to recall the IMs suggesting that that activity was going on.

Pale Rider - you and he had a go at one another last spring. He was no match for the wit of thee. Know who I'm talking about now?

Who rides the tiger, dare not dismount.

I don't know the laws in DC, but here in Kansas City it is all the rage to bust the parents of kids who throw parties. They get jail time, hefty fines, lose jobs and I think at least one family lost a house. Pretty draconian punishment for going out of town for the weekend if you ask me.

Last winter, some kids were home from college - no high schoolers involved, on private property and everyone was over 18. They were at a house party and the cops broke it up and I believe went to the restaurant where the parents were and hauled the parents off to jail. Last I heard, they are facing prison time. Because their 20 year old kid had a party with his over-18 friends. What kind of sense does this make? Seems harsh to me.

I was the parent who said "If you are afraid to call your parents, call me and I will come pick you up. Just do not drive drunk." Now a parent with their nose out of joint could have my house my license to practice my profession and send me to jail for trying to be a responsible parent and keep a drunk kid off the streets.

Glad my kids are raised and out of my house, lemme tell you. Teenagers are dangerous to have around.

betsh nails it!

Here was my rsponse to him:

Cell phone schmell phone - mine came with AOL Instant Messenger built in and I can access the internet with it. The device is not the issue...

It's the cover-up.

Thanks cmdicely - was a rhetorical question - the SD Age of Consent thing. . .

But interesting that the providing alcohol to a minor thing is so lenient; Michael Jackson was going to get sent to prison over that, until they destroyed the mom's credibility. . . but Maf54 put it in writing!

GC; glad I don't live in Kansas. Holy crap what a clusterfuck of a law. I recall a former MN governor who got in trouble when his son had a party at their home (he refused to live in the mansion - ). He retired from politics over that issue. Too bad, he would have made a good president. Said to the St. Paul gun club: ". . . you haven't hunted, until you've hunted Man."

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OBF:

Nice not-so-veiled reference to Jesse The Bod :)

Jesse Ventura would have had his share of Perot Moments under the hot lights of a national campaign, of that I'm fairly certain ...

Bob

The Republicans have now moved into another level of denial: when they lose this election, in their minds it will not be a result of botched government for the past 6 (or 12) years, it will be an October surprise sprung upon them by the hated liberal media.

This should be a tonic for their collective ego, and it will make great fodder for right wing pundits, but it will likely prevent them from the honest look in the mirror that they desperately need.

As a Democrat, part of me would be delighted to see the Republican free-fall continue as they retreat ever further into paranoia and denial. But I think I'd be happier still to see the Republicans come to terms with the fact that their policies have been widely rejected by the voting public, and to see a willingness on their part to begin an actual dialogue with those of us across the aisle.

Please listen up all you scanal mongers who are cheering the revelations of the Foley scandal.

If you read comments at this site at all you know that I am a partisan Republican.

Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say that the Repubs lose the house due to the Foley scandal or even the lose the house with the perception that it was lost because of the Foley scandal. Will any moderate repubs think, "Maybe I should listen to the Democrats, maybe they have better ideas." No. This scandal will soon pass, and those voters who were driven away by their distate for it will not switch loyalties. Why don't you Dems try to win an election in the arena of ideas instead of always relying on the Michael Moore and Bob Mulholland type strategies. Makes me think you really don't have any ideas worth discussing.

What will it do? It will just further prove scandal mongering and mud slinging is the way to win elections. Just what this country needs - more partisan muck-raking and neglect of the real issues.

I stand in contempt of all the media both right and left who have made this said tragic story a center piece of the election campaign.

I wanted this kind of outrage over the Publican machine screwing the public at every turn (Abramoff, Ney, Cunningham, Halliburton, Noe, Diebold chacanery, the list goes on and on and on and on and on...)

I'm a little irked that I got the outrage I had been looking for because an old letch wanted to screw young Pages.

However, given the maniacle bent that aWol has taken, I'll take my chances on future elections and stop that dry-drunk little bitch now, before he gets a bunch more people killed with his end-times wet-dream.

John Hansen:

That's a really *funny* thing to tell Democrats, considering the shenanigans the GOP pulled on the body politic since, ohh -- forcing a vote on Iraq immediately before the '02 election.

Sorry. The pages -- good Republican kids with good Republican donor parents -- brought on this mediathon.

Despite the hyperventilations from Rush, NewsMax and/or Drudge -- there are no Democratic fingerprints here.

And just as a test of your sincerity. If this Ethics Committee probe happens to find a Democrat or two in the same hot water which serves to neutralize the scandal with their ever-popular "Dems do it, too!" meme -- please log in and reassure us once again of how using scandals politically so warps the political discourse.

Thanks in advance,

Bob

OBF - I'm actually on the Missouri side - Pendergast territory - a city so corrupt that the state lege controls our police department, and has for over 70 years. They just can't get out from under it. In todays (Fridays) KC Star is an article about a cop getting probation and anger management classes mandatory after he beat up on a ten-year-old kid. He isn't even on restricted duty - he hasn't been to a single AM class, he's a convicted child abuser and he's walking around with a loaded gun. I'm staying out of the Shoal Creek patrol division.

You remember the Pendergast Machine from history class don't you? The most efficient machine of 'em all. It reached all the way to Jeff City and the capitol was known as "Uncle Tom's Cabin." Tom Pendergast out-Tammanied tammany Hall.

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John Hansen: Let's say that the Repubs lose the house due to the Foley scandal or even the lose the house with the perception that it was lost because of the Foley scandal. Will any moderate repubs think, "Maybe I should listen to the Democrats, maybe they have better ideas." No.

You talk as if Republicans ever listen to any ideas that have basis in anything other than entrenching their power and crushing their opposition -- which, by the way, consists almost entirely of persons driven by the same ideas, such that opposition, which exists massively in the populace, is virtually non-existent within the corrupt system known as government.

Recently, someone here opined that certain voices risked alienating mainstream voters with "over the top" rhetoric in defining the corrupt establishment conservative culture. Like your complaint, this is laughable, as over the top words simply do not exist when it comes to describing the disgraceful and degenerate disservice dispensed by our deceitful and duplicitous representatives.

Just what this country needs - more partisan muck-raking and neglect of the real issues.

That's a scream coming from a self-described "partisan Republican." The real issues are what they tell you they are. How many times in your life have you been in a group of people -- ordinary folks -- and heard them break into the chant, "Rich people need more money!" If people were marching in the streets shouting that phrase and carrying signs emblazoned with it, the Republicans could not have fought harder to carry out the wishes of the people they represent than they did in implementing their economic policies. If people had been gathering in huge throngs and demonstrating with uncontrolled fervor for their government to set about killing and maiming people in other parts of the world, Republicans could not better have followed through in championing their cause than they did in invading Iraq.

Why don't you Dems try to win an election in the arena of ideas instead of always relying on the Michael Moore and Bob Mulholland type strategies.

And with that little talk radio retread you expose that your idea arena consists of the drivel spewed by the most soul-less of hypocrites -- those highly paid mouthpieces of the plutocrats; those deluding disciples of the death dealers; those cowardly heroes running interference for the aristocracy.

Your ideas, John Hansen, come from where all authoritarian notions come from -- straight from the black, selfish heart of fascism, but filtered through the slick and slippery ass of corporatism.

V: Like your complaint, this is laughable, as over the top words simply do not exist when it comes to describing the disgraceful and degenerate disservice dispensed by our deceitful and duplicitous representatives.

Yep. Good post, as always.

This story is just FASCINATING...and so many are getting right out there with their true homophobic hypocritical opinions spewing lies, as usual, Hannity, Rush, Weiner (Savage), and Drudge...someone should put together a compilation of all their CRAP and just run it over and over again. Did anyone catch Keith's latest "commentary to Bush?" I need to pass on the transcript...we all should. AND, while I'm think about FOLEYGATE...wonder what Mary Cheney is up to...surely it's not only the homosexual men that are ALL PERVERTED?????

Pale Rider:

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are full of shit. Cell phones don't use the Internet. They do use the switching equipment facilities (i.e. "land lines") of telecommunication providers such as Qwest, Verizon, etc. The Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) then bill the cellular companies for this usage. The points of presence (POPs) for access to the long-haul lines (IXCs) may be the same, but the backbone of the Internet has nothing to do with the cellular networks.

Global Citizen:

What's your favorite K.C. barbeque place? I get to K.C. quite often and love Gates and Rosedale BBQ. Not a big fan of Arthur Bryants, despite the hype.

ACC

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are full of shit. Cell phones don't use the Internet. They do use the switching equipment facilities (i.e. "land lines") of telecommunication providers such as Qwest, Verizon, etc. The Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) then bill the cellular companies for this usage. The points of presence (POPs) for access to the long-haul lines (IXCs) may be the same, but the backbone of the Internet has nothing to do with the cellular networks.

Well, well, well--someone woke up feeling smart today. Rub the sleep out of your eyes and eat cold steel, amateur.

It's actually called the "backhaul" and the cellular networks use it. Cellular network backhaul involves transporting radio traffic from one carrier network to another. This is from the cellular operator to the local access provider and back to the cellular provider's own network. This connection can consist of VoIP technology to reduce costs. The distances between networks--and I've studied this specifically in India--means that using VoIP to connect two Mobile Switching Centers saves the cost of building out and maintaining the microwave connection. You can use VoIP as a substitute for microwave.

VoIP, as we know, is packet data sent over the Internet. If the provider uses VoIP, the transmission hits the Internet and that counts. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Ever heard of a BlackBerry? Did you know that the BlackBerry Enterprise Server or Desktop Redirector software redirects new E-mail, and data straight to the user over the Internet and the cell phone network? Guess not.

As for access to the Internet directly from a cell phone, you need a cell phone that is either dual or tri mode. This allows you to connect to the Internet so long as the cell phone works in digital format. A dual mode phone is completely digital and operates on 1900 MHz and 800 MHz and a tri mode phone works on those same two digital bands, as well as on the analog network of 800 MHz. Don't go analog--too much of a pain. All you need to do then is connect the cell phone via a port to your laptop and you're on the Internet. I'm thinking this would slow down a perv just enough to get them to go back to their BlackBerry, but I just thought I'd mention it.

Do you know what Multimedia Messaging Service is? It's what you use to send multimedia content over a cellular network. Guess what it uses to connect to the source of the content? Yep, sometimes the source of the content has to be accessed via the Internet.

Here's another scenario that could also justify the application of the Internet rules. Some wireless carriers expose a Simple Mail Transport Protocol SMTP interface to send SMS. This makes use of the Internet in that the email address "is" the device's phone number or pager identification number prepended to the carrier's specific domain. It would send the message over the Internet like this: 5075551212@messaging.sprintpcs.com.

Another method is to use Simplewire as a third-party platform. It acts as an operating-system layer between the Internet and wireless devices of all types.

Did you have a point? Is Wikipedia letting you down today?

61 more killed in Iraq - One Danish soldier killed in Southern Iraq.

However, in other news, J Dennis has used one of his Does - As you may recall, J Dennis charged that ABC News, George Soros and Does 1 to 20 were responsible for the negative attack upon him. Early this morning, he has added Frank Nitti as the first Doe.

Where this is smoke...yes, there is often fire ....

BREAKING. A well-placed source has told WMR that the Pagegate scandal will soon involve underage male and female teens who have not served as congressional pages, but who have reported abuse by well-known GOP players in the nation's capital. The source says the Psychiatric Institute of Washington's "Center Unit" has dealt with a number of child abuse cases involving senior Republican office holders in the Washington, DC area. Now that GOP abuse of minors is finally receiving media attention as a result of Pagegate, it is a matter of time before the abused males and females report the details of their own abuse cases.

Where this is smoke...yes, there is often fire ....

BREAKING. A well-placed source has told WMR that the Pagegate scandal will soon involve underage male and female teens who have not served as congressional pages, but who have reported abuse by well-known GOP players in the nation's capital. The source says the Psychiatric Institute of Washington's "Center Unit" has dealt with a number of child abuse cases involving senior Republican office holders in the Washington, DC area. Now that GOP abuse of minors is finally receiving media attention as a result of Pagegate, it is a matter of time before the abused males and females report the details of their own abuse cases.

A whole lot of speculation going on. Perhaps, we should all take a deep breath and concentrate on the known.

Foley resigned.
A top aide has been fired.
J Dennis Hastert is not anorexic.

Pale Rider:

I'm sending your response to a friend who is a technician for Sprint wireless. I am all about learning new things, but I get the sense you are just throwing together a bunch of jargon without understanding the basic switching technology that that cellular telephones use. I absolutely agree that VoIP uses the Internet. However, I think this notion of "backhaul" is either made up or you are not fully understanding basic telephonic switching technology.

ACC

I'm sending your response to a friend who is a technician for Sprint wireless.

Good; tell him I worked on this stuff for the US Army for 7 years and as a civilian for another 3 years--essentially the collection and exploitation of communication networks.

If there's anything I can instruct your buddy on, lemme know.

I stand in contempt of all the media both right and left who have made this said tragic story a center piece of the election campaign. John Hansen at 2:22 AM

Spare me the tears: You live by professed ideals that you make no effort to uphold, live up to or practice.

This is prior to Pagegate:

"Although the national media have focused on pedophilia and abuse committed by Catholic priests in the Boston area and elsewhere, the media have consistently suppressed an even more explosive and related story.

For years, former Nebraska State Sen. John DeCamp has spearheaded an inquiry into a massive pedophile ring with a base of operations in Omaha, Nebraska, that has been linked to high-ranking political figures in Washington. Recently, DeCamp won a $1 million civil judgment against former big-name Republican Party figure Larry King (an Omaha credit union founder) on behalf of a young man, Paul Bonacci, who charged that King had molested him and brought him into the pedophile ring."

GOP & Pedophilia.....perhaps this will get some traction now ????

".... former republican Senator John Decamp was involved in the production a documentary called "Conspiracy of Silence" it was to air May 3, 1994 on the Discovery Channel. This documentary exposed a network of religious leaders and Washington politicians who flew children to Washington D.C. for sex orgies. As the story goes, at the last minute before airing, there was a massive effort from key Washington politicians who were implicated in the scandal to exert pressure on the channel to threatened the TV Cable industry with restrictive legislation if this documentary was aired.

Almost immediately, the rights to the documentary were purchased by unknown persons who had ordered all copies destroyed. A copy of this videotape was furnished anonymously to former Nebraska state senator and attorney John De Camp who made it available to retired F.B.I. chief, Ted L. Gunderson"

Isn't it hypocritical: When critics complained about the outing of Plame etc., something truly know to have been done and truly wrong, Repug apologists griped that critics were "criminalizing politics." But now that Foley is in trouble, they gripe about probably made-up conspiracies of their enemies sitting on emails, or goading Foley, or even the fully legitimate very act of exposing what he did.

here is a nice summary: Wetterling campaign manager Corey Day defended the language of the ad, saying that while none of the congressional leaders have said "I admit to a coverup," they have acknowledged the facts that make it clear that a coverup has occurred.

I stand in contempt of all the media both right and left who have made this said tragic story a center piece of the election campaign.

That is absurd. It might be nice if there were less speculating and spinning, and more silence and thorough investigation, but this is a serious story. To use the classical medical metaphor, this is a festering wound, and it will not heal until it is thoroughly lanced and disinfected; it's ugly and smelly, and it saps the health and energy of the body politic.

I think this notion of "backhaul" is either made up or you are not fully understanding basic telephonic switching technology

Sorry I didn't catch that earlier--

"backhaul" is made up?

Yeah--I just pulled that out of my ass for shits and giggles.

FYI, posters, but "pedophilia" refers to attraction to pre-pubescent children.

There's no information out that points to Foley being a pedophile. He liked young men, not children. Still doesn't make it legal, but let's not confuse the issue by using terms that don't apply.

Careful, Cal Gal--

They'll accuse you of 'making up' the term pedophile before too long.

Good God, Cal Gal. You conservatives are so fucking sick. A 52 year old man that asks a 16 year old boy to measure his penis and what his favorite masturbatory techniques are, is a pervert. Full stop.

Can't you set aside the fact that you vote Republican and see this deviant for what he is? Is political loyalty everything to you sick, sick people???

TCD:

Umm, Cal Gal is a staunch Democrat. And she happens to be correct -- at least technically so. The public mind might conflate all adult sexual conduct with legal minors into "pedophilia," but that's the public mind. If Mark Foley is a pedophile -- what would you call kiddie porn aficionado John Mark Karr?

The correct technical name for Foley's conduct is ephebophilia, not pedophilia.

Don't make assumptions of regular posters you should know something about at this point.

Bob

Rickmick,

Don't make assumptions of regular posters you should know something about at this point.

Come on man--three letters?

'c l d?'

Pale Rider:

Not a fair characterization.

I stand my my critique of cld's views of neuroscience and judging people by their biological attributes. It's an entirely principled disagreement for which cld begrudges me no animus (which he made explicit on the other thread).

I know plenty about cld's views. I've posted with the guy for months. He goes off on his neuroscience hobbyhorse and he really *does* begin to sound like the worst sort of eugenics advocate.

The Mengele remark (which I know he wouldn't take personally and get upset about -- and he clearly didn't) was my way of warning him off that line of speculation.

I really don't understand why you need to go on about this; it was entirely resolved in the other thread.

Bob

Andrew Sullivan is not totally an immigrant - he is a UK citizen, not an American. He lives and works here.

huh???

And exactly how do you define immigrant?

Offtopic: What exactly is a Sullivan Award? Just curious...