Idiots. That's what we're working with.

Idiots.

Expect an October Surprise then. Basically, if you got nuthin' turn it into sumthin' til after the election. Watch and see. Report and cut it off. Those are the choices. Also, keep following up on the NIE story and Ney and Foley, give Doolittle more and better opportunities to come clean. Be ready to focus on those when the Bushites make their next attack on America's body politic. They've don it every election in the past 8 years and I don't think it is going to be any different this year. My guess is they'll announce a crackdown on travel or argue that the President can't be distracted because of XYZ created crisis.

They've charged a dozen or more people with crimes, and found detonating devices in the woods about ten miles from here. That's the last I've heard, about a month ago.

Kevin:

"Possibly with good reason?"

Heh.

Bob

Bob's right Kevin,
Your wide-eyed credulity after the seemingly endless cries of, "Wolf!!" from the US and British administrations is becoming a joke.

Lieutenant-Colonel (ret.) Nigel Wylde, a former senior British Army Intelligence Officer, has suggested that the police and government story about the "terror plot" revealed on 10th August was part of a "pattern of lies and deceit." ...

"The idea that these people could sit in the plane toilet and simply mix together these normal household fluids to create a high explosive capable of blowing up the entire aircraft is untenable," said Lt. Col. Wylde, who was trained as an ammunition technical officer responsible for terrorist bomb disposal at the Royal Army Ordnance Corps in Sandhurst. ...

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Again, you want to compromise our security. It is almost as though you think that it is possible that the GOPernment might make something up to scare people!

For shame, Kevin!

So now they'll torture him until he gives up everyone he knows, including his grandmother. But at least amchickenhawk will feel safe.

This story from England was a total crock of shit, just like the supposed "terror cell" in Miami, where a bunch of unemployed people who sat around and smoked doobies and talked about how much they hated the government were portrayed as hatching plots to take down the Sears Tower. Yeah, right.

Those people were clearly entrapped by the government and should be released immediately. The Bush Administration is so desperate to keep the American people terrified and distracted from how they are destroying the American economy and making a mockery of the American criminal justice system that they will just make shit up.

God, I pray the Democrats take back both houses of Congress in November, so we can impeach Bush, Cheney and Hastert and put them in federal prison where they belong.

The plot hadn't gotten very far, but on the other hand it had gotten as far as it could. The technical stories about liquid bomb making all seem to share the words "impossible" and "noxious fumes" and "kill yourself".

If the jerk conspirators wanted to kill innocents, let them spend seriously long time in jail. OTOH, it might be a good time to acknowledge that their weapon of choice was just not going to happen and to resume letting people bring medicines and cosmetics in their carry on luggage.

In the face of facts to the contrary, why would the "authorities" maintain such a fiction about "binary explosives".

Would not the "authorities" head off a lot of the threat by pointing out how silly the idea is?

Remember the news du jour when the whole thing was announced? Joementum losing the primary in Conn.? Think there might have been a political angle in the timing?

"possibly with good reason"

Hmmm - In the ideal world of trying to protect a nation's citizens,

Or, in the political world of falling polls.

Expect an October Surprise then

how much are you paying for gas these days?

Kevin, you should start a lottery. Choose the date between now and November 7th that the Bush administration will announce the uncovering of another terrorist plot to kill thousands. Give away a T-Shirt or something. I say Tuesday, October 31st (Halloween by the way).

Paul, I like it. I say November 2, the Thursday before the elections. With the weekend, that will eliminate the possibility of enough investigation being done to sort out the real facts.

But I also expect that these guys have dipped into this well one too many times and many will see it for the political trick it is. Expect this to backfire.

mhr:

Why is it that conservatives have such an all-or-nothing view of the world? Is it limited synaptic capacity? Traumatic brain injury? Or were you just hurt so badly or loved so badly as children that you cannot differentiate shades of grey?

Of course we need to be vigilant against terrorism, but we also need to be deeply, deeply skeptical of politicians who would use this mythical "war on terror" to dismantle the Constitution, gut the economy for their rich friends and promulgate their social agenda.

The world is not an ON/OFF switch. Use your brain, for Gods sake.

TCD

Rove: I told you not to have those guys picked up until October 15.

Bush: Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

The "plot" is utter bullcrap and totally bogus. Couldn't happen. There have been several articles published (I'll look for them again and provide links) by Brit experts (either former investigators or chemists, etc) that explain that the so-called plot is unworkable and total nonsense. You CAN'T make a viable liquid explosive using the chemicals involved. The mixing is too exacting and the smells and time involved (you don't get an instantaneous explosive liquid even if you DO mix the proportions properly...it takes time and produces smells) is beyond useful or viable.

The plot is bullshit. It was fabricated out of thin air for purely political reasons. All the hassle of giving up drinks, shampoo, nail polish, etc, etc, was pointless and unnecessary. There are no liquid explosive mixtures that can be thrown together on an aircraft.

Praedor: never mind about that. Just find me one quote, just one, from a police or government source saying that the suspected plot involved mixing chemicals on board an aircraft to create an explosive. Please.

What they said - repeatedly - was that the plot involved liquid explosives; that they would be smuggled on board the aircraft in drinks bottles; and that the explosives could be made from household chemicals. But no one suggested that the explosives were going to be made on board the aircraft. Did they?

"I get my news from watching the comedy channel and reading leftist blogs." - mhr

Threat? What threat?

But Nancy Pelosi said she will keep America safer.

Is it possible to face no threat yet feel the need to be kept safer?

Praedor -- I agree with ajay, that the plot may not have involved mixing the chemicals on the plane. It seems to me that the plot very well may have been workable. But even if you're right, if the plot was unworkable, shouldn't we still arrest people who are incompently plotting mass murder? Or should we just keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get any smarter?

"use this mythical "war on terror" to dismantle the Constitution, gut the economy for their rich friends and promulgate their social agenda." - deranged liberal

-Constitution still intact, at least as of today, so chalk this up to more liberal drama queen hysteria.

-The economy is stronger today than it has been in decades; record low unemployment, record high DJIA, all time home ownership, etc. etc.

-Social agenda? Which party is forcing same sex marriage down everyones throats? Which party is advocating open borders? Which party is attempting to erase religion from the public square?

I would ask you to use your brains but apparently you have none, sir.

Have a nice day.

Geez mhr talk about throwing shit at the wall hoping some will stick.This is a perfect example why the righties should not be in charge.

"*American intelligence agents told their British counterparts they were ready to 'render' Rashid Rauf,* a British citizen allegedly linked to al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and who was under surveillance in Pakistan, unless he was picked up immediately."

*note: To render, ie. not to find out who else was involved, but to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rashid Rauf, was, is, possibly, maybe, okay high suspicion of...well alright, we got nothing...but we'll drown his ass to get him to confess to our suspicions!

Yep, another high point for Americans to hold our heads high and say, "proud to be part of an America that will drown you, peel your fingernails off, or basically stuff bamboo slivers through your body cause we're so damn paranoid!"

Just find me one quote, just one, from a police or government source saying that the suspected plot involved mixing chemicals on board an aircraft to create an explosive.

Well, here's one where such sources describe what they believe the plot was in fair detail the mixing is clearly post-security, at least, though not specified as being on the plane:

Based on the materials found in Britain, investigators developed a specific theory of the bomb plot, two officials who have been briefed on the inquiry said.

With the seal on a sports drink called Lucozade intact, the plotters apparently intended to remove the drink with a hypodermic needle and replace it with highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide, a syrupy liquid once used as rocket fuel. Another bottle would be filled with a common household substance, which The New York Times agreed not to disclose at the request of Homeland Security officials. After the two were mixed, a detonator hidden in a hollowed-out AA battery would be used to set off the bomb, according to this theory.

"Yep, another high point for Americans to hold our heads high and say, "proud to be part of an America that will drown you, peel your fingernails off, or basically stuff bamboo slivers through your body cause we're so damn paranoid!" - does it matter what liberal spouted this?

OK none of this has happened either, but it sounds great when echoed through the liberal drama queen hysteria echo chamber, of which Cindy Sheehan is the General Manager.

"We killed the Patriot Act" - Harry Reid

"Yep, another high point for Americans to hold our heads high and say, "proud to be part of an America that will drown you, peel your fingernails off, or basically stuff bamboo slivers through your body cause we're so damn paranoid!" - another deranged liberal

But this is exactly what many of you have advocated to do to Bush, Cheney, Rove and now Foley.

So are you against this practice or not?

The reason the bombs were going to be mixed on the plane was so that the combination wouldn't trip the Gas chromatography-mass spectrometry equipment that air port security uses. Innocuous separate. Deadly together. Like the GOP.

"Innocuous separate. Deadly together. Like the GOP." - Jeffrey

OK, that's funny.

Praedor -- I agree with ajay, that the plot may not have involved mixing the chemicals on the plane. It seems to me that the plot very well may have been workable.

On the plane, not on the plane, the facts remain the same: powerful, unhidable smells and a very volatile mixture after sitting for a while that is unsafe for handling by the stray numbnuts 'terra-ist'. The analysis of the bogosity of the plot doesn't change with the simple change of mixing before getting on the plane. It is an unworkable scheme.

Praedor -- you can't smell even the most foul smelling chemicals stored in an airtight container soda bottle. A nail-polish remover bottle (filled with acetone, one of the chemicals involved in the scheme) has no odor if it's closed.

Of course, you didn't address my main point.

"American intelligence agents told their British counterparts they were ready to 'render' Rashid Rauf, a British citizen allegedly linked to al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and who was under surveillance in Pakistan, unless he was picked up immediately."

But, but, Afghanistan is a sovereign country. We can't just go in willy nilly after some guy who might do, or might've done, us harm, can we?

MJK,

The chemicals involved require a lab, time, and the careful touch of chemist with experiece in titrating the materials.
Purified H2O2 @ 90% is volatile...not just a little bit, it's highly volatile and here is the kicker, to mix it requires a cooling system.
COME ON PEOPLE!
So numb nuts terr. successfully mixes the mats before he gets to the airport...oh yeah, he now has an unstable bomb which would be detected.
Or, numb nuts terr. tries to get on plane with volatile materials, and tries to mix them without the benefits of a measurable titration system, sensors to let him know that he's reached the allowable level, and a lab with the right equipment that will prevent him from burning himself to a crisp.
Oh yeah, I can see it happening...IF BRITISH AIRWAYS COOPERATED BY PUTTING A CHEMISTRY LAB ON THE PLANE!

On the bogosity of the "liquid bomb" plot.

Another nice debunking is here.

Or go here to read up on the ongoing collapse of the plot (as "suspects" are released).

As to the bogosity of the "liquid bomb" plot that goes totally outside the idea of a "plot" in the first place, check here.

Jay,
Your weak, and pointless, and you must be new to the job.
I guess it takes time to build a good Republican troll.
But hey, I'll give props for effort.
You're trying, so good effort, keep it up, and hopefully you'll get to the level of Rovian perfection that Unkle Karl will approve of and land you a sweet job with a Republican patron.

Ah, Praedor, your linkage's aren't linking.

As near as I can tell, there's been virtually no news in the past couple of weeks from either the British or American governments about the plot

British press laws require secrecy about ongoing investigations once they reach a certain stage, so the lack of news only implies that the investigation is ongoing. That may be at work here.

Thanks to all the debunkers above.

We seem to need to be scared. If there is no viable plot to take our freedom and property, like The Great Communist Conspiracy, currently running out there in the paranoidosphere, we’ll make one up. The 50,000 disappeared children that never did, back in the eighties, is my favorite example, but it’s only one of many.

Today’s reigning hysteria is about Muslim terrorists with advanced degrees in chemistry, nuclear engineering, and bio-medicine waiting behind every tree and telephone pole to lob their creations at us.

I used to hope that as each successive hysteria subsided, we might be becoming a rational people, but a new fear always took its place. Guess we’re just going to have to live with it. You had a hope that the human animal might act like a rational species? Toss it.

Crap. The links, obviously, are totally borked.

On the infeasibility of making liquid bombs as claimed:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/

http://www.correntewire.com/liquid_bomb_plot_total_bs

http://www.rense.com/general73/liq.htm

And here's Kevin Drum's very own posting:

BINARY EXPLOSIVES....Here's what Time had to say last week about the mechanics of the airline bombing plot:

Their plan was to smuggle the peroxide-based liquid explosive TATP and detonators onto nine different planes from four carriers....

[According to the FBI,] "TATP was popularized as a main charge explosive in suicide bombs used by Palestinian terrorist groups." Ramzi Yousef, who was convicted in 1996 for plotting to simultaneously bomb up to a dozen U.S. commercial airliners flying in the Far East, had manufactured TATP detonators....More recently, British shoe bomber Richard Reid tried to detonate his device with TATP as the initiator.

In other words, TATP is dangerous stuff. But the airline bombers weren't planning to take TATP aboard their flights. They were planning to take its liquid precursors on board and then mix them together while the plane was in the air. That's why we're not allowed to pack gels or liquids in our carry-on bags anymore.

So: just how easy is it to mix up those precursors and blow up a plane? The Register's Thomas Greene provides would-be terrorists with their marching orders:

Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them.

It's best to fly first class and order Champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate - especially if you have those cold gel-packs handy to supplement the ice, and the Styrofoam chiller handy for insulation - to get you through the cookery without starting a fire in the lavvie.

Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else.

After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.

The genius of this scheme is that TATP is relatively easy to detonate. But you must make enough of it to crash the plane, and you must make it with care to assure potency. One needs quality stuff to commit "mass murder on an unimaginable scale," as Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Stephenson put it. While it's true that a slapdash concoction will explode, it's unlikely to do more than blow out a few windows. At best, an infidel or two might be killed by the blast, and one or two others by flying debris as the cabin suddenly depressurizes, but that's about all you're likely to manage under the most favorable conditions possible.

There's more at the link. The good news is that it will make you feel a little more confident about the safety of flying overseas. The bad news is that it will make you feel a little less confident about the terror announcements of our national governments. Caveat emptor.

On the total bogosity of the plot itself:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Petras25.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14709.htm

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2006/08/the_uk_terror_p.html

Conservative Deflator, you have nailed it. I've said similar in other blogs, although much more dramatically and direct I guess. Well, enough to have my comments removed in those blogs. I try to expose stupidity for what it is and to show how easily it can be recognized in ourselves and others. You have done so with your statements above, thanks!

...another visit from the peckermeaner

Speaking of vanished stories, remember when the French were going to indict Dick Cheney?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040112/ireland

Whatever happened to that?

Thanks for the kind words, peckermeaner (nice handle). The modern conservative mind is a bizarre thing. As my brother-in-law likes to say about conservatives - "How can we ever agree on matters of opinion, when we can't even agree on what the facts are?"

I don't bother responding to idiots like Jay, who is so deluded and misinformed ("economy stronger today than in decades", my ass) that there is really no hope for him short of electroconvulsive therapy.

They just plain lied.

The Register webzine detailed how difficult airplane bathroom chemistry actually is. Can you say really, really, really hard, and it stinks.

They need TERROR TERROR TERROR to win and they are gonna hype it.