The Guardian stilted and biased? Mon Dieu!

Either way, it looks like the Chinese have a bigger codpiece than W.

What a surprise.

Oy vey.

Did Kim Jong (Mentally)-il also apologize to the special Chinese envoy for their nuclear test and pledge not to conduct another test?

According to Chosun Ilbo, Kim did indeed apologize. However, I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere else.

At least he's stopped kidnapping film directors...

Did you also see the Clinton/Spencer Senate debate? "I'm the only one standing on this platform who wants to be a United States senator for New York for the next six years," said Spencer, a former Yonkers mayor, in his opening remarks. Clinton acknowledged that she has thought about running for the presidency in 2008, but said she is committed to running for Senate re-election.

My God man! Are you saying that the Senator didn't lie? And she calls herself a Clinton.

All N. Korea wants is "a little respect". With any progress made by anyone else, stand by for GW to torpedo (already happening) any progress. He is a small minded combatist who would never actually fight for himself.

This pussy hasn't got b***s to actually negotiate. It's all bluff and puffed chest.

He's an idiot!

It's useful to see the Chinese apply pressure, though the amount of pressure still seems modest.

What the NKors want is a two-party negotiation so that they can begin extracting new concessions from us. The six-party talks won't let them do that. Let's face it: should we ever agree to such two-party talks, the starting point will be us refusing to bend and the NKors demanding a list of things. Given the usual pressure to 'compromise', 'negotiate', and 'meet in the middle', where do you think that will end up?

Yup, the NKors get new presents from us in return for a set of promises which they'll then break.

Two-party talks are a recipe to failure, and worse yet, leave the North Korean people in abject misery.

The six-party talks pushed by the Bush administration may also fail -- so far we haven't gotten much at all from it. The negotiations done by the Clinton administration and the Agreed Framework is also a failure (not Clinton's fault, he did the best he could with what he had at that time).

If we really want the NKors to behave, we have to find the right leverage with China. China is the only one who will get the NKors to listen, and that happens only if China comes to see that the NKors are more of a threat than a useful tool.

The Bush administration is still proceding under the theory that punishing and destabilizing (and hopefully collapsing) North Korea ought to be the object of its foreign policy rather than coddling it along like Clinton supposedly did. Meanwhile, the Chinese and South Koreans are freaking out that 1. there will be an new arms race, particularly if Japan feels threatened enough to start talking about going nuclear and 2. a tough sanctions regime might destabilize NK, producing an economic and humanitarian disaster of unimaginable proportions (not to mention suddenly leave an unknown amount of weapons-grade plutonium vulnerable to proliferation). So we're basically in the same situation as we are with all Bush foreign policy: writing tough-guy foreign policy checks our asses can't cash and then hoping somebody else will come in and pick up the tab.

As I understand it, in the context of Chinese politics a national leader apologizing is a significant point. When you consider that Kim didn't actually do anything to China or kill a lot of people and that China was interested enough to push them, I think it may be their Theodore Roosevelt moment.

Steve,

"the starting point will be us refusing to bend and the NKors demanding a list of things"

That is called, openers. It is like the car dealer posting the "price" on the window. I've already made a concession driving to the dudes place of business......

It would seem that NKor has asked for two party for quite a while now, with our thugs saying no.

Wouldn't an agreement to "two party" be considered a concession on our part? We could always tell NKor that going back to the six party is always on the table......

Unfortunately, I believe our morons wouldn't know how to negotiate themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Read "Take this job and ship it" by Sen. Dorgan to see how bad we do against other countries.

Maybe even more of a Theodore Roosevelt moment than I'd guessed,

Are Chinese central bankers are looking to diversify out of US government bonds?,

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/costello-seeks-orderly-us-withdrawal/2006/10/17/1160850931319.html#

This Administration is really the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight when it comes to foreign policy, aren't they? My God. They could could fuck up a wet dream.

And what is this shit about having China talk to North Korea? Don't we have a single diplomat who can speak Korean or something? Did we ask Uzbekistan to disarm the Taliban? Wake me up when it's 2008. These people are frickin' unbelievably inept....

I think the Chinese have decided their weird little pet next door may be more trouble then he's worth....

He's also been causing them to lose face globally, hence their cracking the whip more obviously.

And Japan is now in the hands of a "hard-liner" who really, really, doesn't like NK.

Make a concession to some degree vs. makes some concessions ... I don't know, that's not necessarily a huge difference.

If we really want the NKors to behave, we have to find the right leverage with China. ....Steve White at 8:32 PM

He's also been causing them to lose face globally, hence their cracking the whip more ...tzs at 9:15 PM

A friend of mine sent me an e-mail that said Kim could be a chess grandmaster with this 'compromise' move. I wrote back and asked what he thought Bush's countermove would be. He said, "Throw a checker!" That sounds about right.

Steve White wrote: It's useful to see the Chinese apply pressure

I'm sure it is, since Bush seems incapable of it.

How pathetic that the Republicans have the United States in the position of having to beg the freakin' Red Chinese, hat in hand, to keep North Korea in line.

Nepeta, we've already said that we don't intend to invade North Korea. Pres. Bush has said it several times; Pres. Clinton said it before him.

The demand for a 'non-agression' pact isn't to protect themselves from a feared attack by an aggessive USA. It's to free their hands: once such a pact is signed they can engage in a number of activities knowing that the international community will hold the US back, based on its signature of the pact.

What sort of activities: assassination of South Koreans. Counterfeiting of US currency. Running drugs on a large scale. Shipping missiles and perhaps nuclear components to other regimes. They've done it before. They want to do it again, and they want to do it free from fear that Uncle Sam would hammer them. Hence the demand for a 'non-aggression' pact.

It would be helpful if contacts would make a society more open and receptive to a change in a totalitarian regime. That certainly helped when communism fell in Eastern Europe.

But North Korea is not East Germany. The people are different, they've been educated/trained/indoctrinated in juche for fifty years now, and their culture is radically different from what you and I can understand. 'Openness' simply isn't a concept there.

Talking with North Korea does nothing except allow them to exert pressure on us for concessions on a world stage. The smart move is to say little to them, keep the sanctions in place, and find a way to persuade China to curb their job.

Gregory: no one in the US can apply pressure to North Korea. Pres. Bush can't, and Pres. Clinton couldn't in his time. A new US president, whoever that might be, won't be able to pressure the North Koreans. Their position is such that they continue to go the way they are regardless of what we do short of military force (and we arne't going to do that).

Likewise, neither Japan nor Russia can pressure North Korea to any signifiant extent. Japan just applied sanctions on travel and imports, and it won't matter very much at all. Diplomacy by these countries also hasn't worked.

South Korea might apply pressure but won't; a friend of mine living in Seoul right now says that all the SKors want to do is enjoy their new-found first world lives. They have no interest at all in their crazy cousins to the north, and their method to keep the cousins at bay is to throw money at them. The South Koreans won't do a thing to upset the balance.

The only country that can pressure North Korea is China. China is their patron and lifeline. China provides most of their energy, food aid, and new military equipment. China has (I've read) a good intel network inside North Korea. China has influence. China can strangle them quietly.

But first they have to want to. Until recently the NKors have been a useful tool for China. They tie us down, they keep the Japanese humble and they push the SKors to move toward China. Nothing wrong with any of that if you're China. The nuke issue is troubling for China because it means Kim is trying to slip his leash. That's where we need to nudge the Chinese.

You seem to think that it's 'pathetic' that we would be " in the position of having to beg the freakin' Red Chinese, hat in hand, to keep North Korea in line." Welcome to the real world (is that a reality-based community?) in which the US is not omnipotent. Isn't that what you Democrats have been saying?

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What North Korea wants is bi-lateral talks probably ending with a guarantee for them of no attack by the US and/or South Korea.

Under what situation would N. Korea envision that the US or S. Korea would attack it?

If these are just the delusions of a paranoid leader, how effective could any negotiations be?

Steve White, if you think NOT talking to North Korea is the "smart move", I got a bridge I want to sell ya...

South Korea might apply pressure but won't; a friend of mine living in Seoul right now says that all the SKors want to do is enjoy their new-found first world lives. They have no interest at all in their crazy cousins to the north

That's utter BS. I work with a couple dozen Koreans, and most all have relatives in NK and they all are interested in peaceful reunification. Some of them even break the law supplying humanitarian aid to NK.

Heh - that's somewhat less impressive than the big
"SORRY" they had on Matt Drudge. What a dumb fuck.

That sounds rather less promising, doesn't it?

Kevin, if you account for variations in translation, both accounts are identical.

But North Korea is not East Germany. The people are different, they've been educated/trained/indoctrinated in juche for fifty years now, and their culture is radically different from what you and I can understand.

Yes, quite different. NK has had 50 yrs of indoctrination in juche, whereas EG had 45 years of indoctrination in Marxism. Big difference.

Funny how Norman Rogers doesn't show up when things turn despairing for the thug-nuts, huh?

Hey Norman - this is me sneering at you...

:/

GC, don't sneer. Remember, we're all afraid of Norman Rogers - he's a killer. And an ex-Con, (white collar type).

GWB:" Kare-rot ... Kare-rot? What the heck is a Kare-rot? That some kind of fancy stick we haven't tried?"

Oh that's right. i forgot it was my turn to be afraid of Norman today.

Hey OBF - I got your props yesterday. Thanks.

I know better than to acknowledge that fuckhead even exists, and handing him his ass on a stick was an ecercise in futility, and I never claimed I was a pacifist.

Where zen ends, ass-kicking begins.

"Kim Jong (Mentally)-il", "paranoid", "crazy"

Our enemies are ALL mad. Kill them. It's the only way. They hate us because they're nuts. Because they're nuts, the only discussion worth having is how we should kill them. You can't talk sense to madmen. Crazy people have no legitimate complaints. Kill them all. Fuckin' bug nutty psychos. Wipe them out.

Anyone who disagrees is obviously psychotic.

I am a fully qualified psychiatrist with big honors and many certificates, so shut up. You want to have sex with your mother and if you argue, I'll spill the beans.

Oh, yeah. On topic:

"If the US makes a concession to some degree, we will also make a concession to some degree, whether it be bilateral talks or six-party talks,"

"North Korea will negotiate on its nuclear program, be it in new bilateral talks with the U.S. or the existing six-way framework, if the U.S. makes some concessions."

Miles apart. Kill them.

Kevin, you can be a real jerk sometimes. (Precisely when that happens is interesting, e.g. when Bush wants to invade Iraq.)

jojo
That would be funnier if it wasn't so close to literal paraphrase.

Paraphrase?

The only reason liberals are screaming for Bush to dump the other nations and go to bilateral talks is because Bush is doing the opposite. If Bush were in bilateral talks, they'd be screaming about unilateralism.

Admit it. The farthest a lot of liberals take their analysis of foreign policy is to say "what's Bush doing?" then insist the opposite is the right answer. Consistency not required.

Anybody think the U.S. could, alone, make ANY unilateral deal work if the Chinese decided to wreck it.

"The only reason liberals are screaming for Bush to dump the other nations and go to bilateral talks is because Bush is doing the opposite. If Bush were in bilateral talks, they'd be screaming about unilateralism."

Liberals are psychotic. Kill them. They're irrational You can't reason with them. Kill them all. It's the only way. rca is right.

Yes, quite different. NK has had 50 yrs of indoctrination in juche, whereas EG had 45 years of indoctrination in Marxism. Big difference.

Yes. It is a big difference. Let's put it this way: I spoke last year with a senior pro-market Vietnamese economist. He had met a bunch of North Korean officials on an NK state visit to Vietnam. And he clucked with pity at how ignorant and how far behind they were in their thinking; he thought it would take decades of reform and education before they could get up to the level that VIETNAM is at.

East Germany watched West German TV. They had been an industrialized country since the 1870s. They had a pethora of advantages that the North Koreans don't have. This is NOT the same thing. It's more like Rumania or Albania, at best.

Is rca the new improved watcher?

What we want is the dismantling of NK nukeability; what China wants is ye old status quo ante - an illusion essentially, like this nonsense about Kim Jong supposedly feeling chastised will make everything ok. China is forced into this choice by its system and this demonstrates why, unless that system falls of changes substantially, China and the West are on a certain collision course. There's a lot of smoke being blown but the central fact is NK now has the bomb, we don't want them to have the bomb, the only country that can make that happen short of military option is China, China is locked into a reality that will not allow it to happen. Since Bush refuses bilateral talks, which would be the only way to remove China as a player and be the smart tactical move here, both sides will settle for the illusion of progress which will make certain a confrontation further down the road. Everyone knows NK has a nuke because China is allowing it to happen; China thinks they can contain the situation and avoid the unstable scenario they fear: but what if they can't and that bomb ends up somewhere it shouldn't be? China will be responsible for it. Then what? China is locked into actions which must lead to confrontation with west, the flash point are all there: Korea, Taiwan, Japan - it's an Asian powderkeg and, given the way things are playing out, it will blow just as surely as it's Balkan forebearer did.

Baldric is going the correct path, but I am certain the Chinese are using NK to do what America did to Russia. The Chinese learned alot from Reagan. Make America divert its attention in two ways; away from the Middle East and spend money on the stupid Star Wars system. China could take care of this problem rather rapidly if they so choose and since they do not, the powers that be must think it is in their best interest to use NK in this manner.

I am with Baldric on the options. Tell the Chinese that they are the power and if NK does anything, we will hold them responsible!

Kim Jong-Il is a democrat, and like all democrats he will tell whatever lie he thinks will be believed. The only language he will understand is force.

I say you're either with us or against us and China is decidedly not on our side. They're propping up this puppet dictator training his nuclear scientists.

The only answer is a strict trade embargo and a voluntary boycott of chinese goods already in the country. I'm throwing out my toilet brush, shower curtain, bathmat, toilet seat cover, toothbrush, towels, shampoo, showerhead, heat lamp, and combs. I'm keeping the toilet itself until I find an american replacement. Tomorrow I'll start going through another room looking for "made in China" labels and I won't stop till it's all burning in the street.

Come on, be a man Buzzard Boy; I ripped out my toilet and use cheese cloth filled with charcoal to stuff down the hole after I pop a squat. Where is your American Spirit?

And we can always kill two Peking ducks with one stone and torch the local Wal-Mart ...

Bob

Sigh...that sounds considerably less promising. Does anyone see the Bush administration unilaterally lifting the sanctions they just imposed to get North Korea to return to even the six party talks? I don't.

If any of you were in DPRK's situation would you give up nuclear weapons?

Lets say you're considered on your block to be mean, and probably unbalanced. all you've got to protect youself from all of these people are a lot of gaurd dogs that they are terrified of. You know everyone hates you, and you know they want you dead. (not a likely occurance in this country, but assume it for the sake of argument.

Now, all of the sudden a giant of a man buys the lavish house at the end of your street. He promises everyone else on the street that he'll "deal" with you. He's always talking shit on you and you know theres going to be violence. Usually, his size wouldn't an issue, because you have all those dogs. But he has a high powered sniper rifle that can shoot you all the way down the street before you can send your dogs to attack the pretty japanese girl he likes that lives across from you. That's the only threat that's kept you safe all of this time. so you buy a gun. It's not as good gun, but it can shoot that pretty japanese girl, and there is no right and wrong in saving your own hide.

Now, the big guy gets all blustery. How DARE you buy a gun, guns kill people! Nobody on your end of the street has a gun! Besides, he was just talking tough, the big man didn't REALLY mean he was going to shoot you.

Would you trust him after the course of events above? Would you take that chance?

Now O'Reilly would not approve and might have your neighbors boycott your abode, but American Buzzard, try the French Method -

Hole in the floor, with ceramic tile not only surrounding the hole, but with slightly raised areas on which to stand - And, of course, that handy dandy pull chain to the rear - Oh, that lovely whoosh sound. Hey, the French Army still uses them, those pussies they.

Of course, O'Reilly won't tell you about that hidden bidet of his. Next to the falafel stand.

"The irony is, what they really need to do is to get China to get North Korea to stop doing this shit, and it's over."

I spoke last year with a senior pro-market Vietnamese economist. He had met a bunch of North Korean officials on an NK state visit to Vietnam. And he clucked with pity at how ignorant and how far behind they were in their thinking

And you're suggesting what? That DDR officials weren't equally behind in their thinking at a relative time?

Let me put it this way: like with the collapse of the iron curtain, when the current regime in the DPRK falls, it won't be the current officials who will be running the show, so what they do or do not understand is irrelevent.

East Germany watched West German TV.

And North Koreans watch SK TV and listen to SK radio.

[The DDR] had been an industrialized country since the 1870s.

Yes, but SK wasn't, and look where they are now. There is no reason to believe that the *people* of the DPRK will be substantially different with a little assistance. They are not all the robotic drones that the Dear Leader wants you to believe that they are.

[The DDR] had a pethora of advantages that the North Koreans don't have. This is NOT the same thing. It's more like Rumania or Albania, at best.

Not at all. Neither Rumania nor Albania had a first world country willing to unify with them and bring them forward 50 years. The DDR did. And so does the DPRK.

Furthermore, you are underestimating how much of a basketcase the DDR was. This is easy to do retrospectively if you had never visited the place (which I did) and since it all turned out relatively ok in the end.

I had written: But North Korea is not East Germany. The people are different, they've been educated/trained/indoctrinated in juche for fifty years now, and their culture is radically different from what you and I can understand.

and Disputo responded: Yes, quite different. NK has had 50 yrs of indoctrination in juche, whereas EG had 45 years of indoctrination in Marxism. Big difference.

Yes, it is different. The East Germans were western in outlook and culture. They had a basis to understand liberal humanism.

The North Koreans have none of that. Before Kim and juche they had Japanese occupation (which by the history books was pretty darned brutal). Before that was feudalism and warlords.

I repeat: their culture is radically different from what you and I can understand. Talk and dialogue are not familiar concepts to them.

Disputo writes further: There is no reason to believe that the *people* of the DPRK will be substantially different with a little assistance. They are not all the robotic drones that the Dear Leader wants you to believe that they are.

Let's hope not. I've read accounts of NKor defectors who are utterly bewildered by life in South Korea; it takes them a long time to adjust. If by 'little assistance' you mean removal of the DPRK leadership and establishing a humane government, it would take a good generation at least for them to recover.

The DDR wasn't first world (I also visited there prior to the fall of the wall), but it was not in nearly the bad shape the DPRK is in today. I'd like to think the SKors, Japan, and we would work to rebuild the North after Kimmie goes to his grave, but the challenge is substantially greater than what the DDR faced.

Concessions? Concessions? We don't give no stinkin' concessions.

American Buzzard's search and destroy mission, LOL. We know just where he does his blog reading, don't we? Unfortunately, the picture won't leave my head.

Also, Dubya nailed it. Has there EVER been a more pathetic bunch of "diplomats" in charge of our foreign policy? And don't tell me Jimmy Carter. The Chimperor just took him off the hook. At least Carter had some humanitarian interests at heart. The Chimperor is simply a puppet of the Neocons, and they're pointed headed academics who just found their pet ideas don't work in the real world. Like good academics everywhere, they've found that to be very interesting, and they've gone back to their ivory towers to think some more. Leaving the mess behind with no one to clean it up, and with the Chimperor playing over and over again the little record they left him. "Power of liberty. Stay the Course. God's gift of liberty. Democracy over Evil. They want what we want." Like wishing and hoping and stomping his feet and clapping even HARDER can make it work.

Steve White - you and I are on opposite sides more often than not, but you cut to the essence of the issue with that last post. Bravo, Sir.

I don't know and don't much care what Kim Jong said or didn't say (his "words" are not something any sane person would rely upon), but Kevin's post does show the power of the press in characterizing a story or even what someone says. It happens everyday in matters large and small in our country, and it is a reason for reporters to be required to declare their voting record so the reader can factor that in when deciding the importance and credibility of a story. The good reporters, regardless of their politics, will be trusted. All reporters will play it straighter. The biased reporters will be exposed and lose credibility.

Without appologies, I am posting this link to an open letter from Kevin Tillman on evrey thread.

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