The problem with Iraq is that we (and by "we", I mean Rummy and Bush) ran the war like a Business. (complete with circle-jerk war profiteering contracts for Cheney's Halliburton - etc.).

America voted for the "CEO President". This is what happens when you let MBA's make decisions. Too bad that America didn't learn from that lesson in 2001 (Enron) and 2004 (re-selection).

One might ask Why they fight back? Possibly it is because the power that one person can inflict and it's portability and availability (weapons, explosives, etc.)has multiplied. Also the means to coordinate via the technology of the enemy--cell phones, internet, etc.

on the rare occasions when they rebelled the British (like all the other European colonial powers) felt free to crush them in the most brutal manner imaginable.

It that is true, shouldn't America be given a free hand to crush any terrorists in Iraq just as the British were free to crush the terrorists in India? Look at what happened to India. After the British left India, India became a free and democratic state. In the same way, if American troops are given the power to crush the terrorists in any way they want, Iraq would also become free and democratic just as India is.

I thought his other, almost throwaway, argument we more interesting - that the original colonial powers exported people to the colonies.

America is by far a net importer of people - so where's the motivation to go out and colonize other lands? It's just not there. I mean, do they even have malls in Iraq? If not, I'm sure not living there, no matter how flat the taxes.

"Whatever happens we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not" as Belloc said. Well, now they've got the Maxim gun, too.

What a strange argument, Kevin.

You almost seem wistful that we haven't been more brutal in our occupation of Iraq. I guess 600,000 dead Iraqis isn't enough?

Ferguson is a complete tool. He's great for the classroom, however, as an object lesson in bad analysis. I'm sure whichever institution awarded him a doctorate has asked more than once that it be given back.

[W]e (and by "we", I mean Rummy and Bush) ran the war like a Business. (complete with circle-jerk war profiteering contracts for Cheney's Halliburton - etc.).

I believe the MBAs call these things "synergies."

Strongly disagree, Kevin--

The Indians fought back. What made a difference was sea power, and the ability of the Brits to bring ships and men to the shores of a distant country and stick it out. The British spent decades trying to get their far flung empire under control and relied upon their navy to do so. Remember--there were regular army troops AND troops from the British East India Company operating in India, at least until the late 1850s. I mean, are you talking about the entire history, one part of it, or what?

The difference is, the military was a route to economic and social power in Colonial Britain; today, in America, forget it--no one joins the military. The colleges are full of eligible young men and women and thousands of officer billets go unfilled in the military.

If you wanted to be politically viable in 19th Century Britain, you could buy a commission and make a name for yourself, either in the Army or the Navy.

And today, with our current situation? There's no comparison. We still have the last vestiges of the "join up for college money" mentality in the military. These are the people who are still stuck in uniform, either through involuntary recall or enlistment obligation. They're the ones that are getting out with their skills. (Were it not for the $60,000 re-up bonuses, there'd be no one left.)

You're quite right, Kevin, but I have to agree with Jaymay, as well. How is 600,000 dead NOT "rivers of blood"? What exactly does "showing them who's boss" entail, if not killing over half a million Iraqis?

I actually think Ferguson latches on to something interesting. Yes, the Iraqis fight back harder than they might have in prior centuries, but we might have the ability and resources to manage this (I stress MIGHT).

The problem is that we have not been ASKED to do so. No great push for more soldiers, no push for more money to rebuild. NOTHING. But lord forbid we give up our tax cuts. This is what drives me nuts about Sullivan and many others who complain about the recent uptick in spending. If this little bit of money for Iraq (which accounts for much of the increase) causes such heartburn then why drum up a war. Wars have the potential to be expensive in lives and money. Americans (and conservatives in particular) are FAR more interested in a tax cut than in supporting the war that they wanted so badly. BOTTOM LINE - YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH.

By accident or on purpose - Ferguson at least teased that out.

The issue that really dismantled the British Empire was representative government. When the British first moved into India, it made little difference to the average Indian whether their statelet was run by the Raj or by the local princeling; in fact, the average Indian was a good deal better off under the British than he was under whatever hereditary despot had ruled in their place before.

Thus after the ruling elites were either crushed or bought off, there was no substantial popular resistance to colonial rule.

However, the idea of government of and by the people, as evinced in America and a whole swath of European revolutions, spread to the colonies as well, and got the average Indian thinking "why am I being ruled by anyone at all, much less these arrogant foreigners?"

An attitude which was then used by a new breed of local elites, educated by the colonial power and with the same understanding of the world as anyone from the "mother country", to stir the masses into becoming simply too costly to rule over.

In short, early British colonial subjects didn't think the way later ones did.

The Maxim gun was a great advantage, mind you. As were the gunboats on the Yangtze. But the reason for the success and failure of the colonial empires was the simple economics of how costly it is to rule a complacent people versus how costly to rule a rebellious people.

I'd like to see a remake of the Battle of Rorke's Drift where the Zulus have RPGs.

Actually, I wouldn't. I don't like seeing our guys get killed in Iraq, either.

Kevin, your third item: "the West is no longer willing to spill rivers of blood simply to show them who's boss" is the same as some of the argument Fergusen is making, so he's not really "absurd" in your eyes, only 2/3 absurd.
.

Why do they fight back? Because we let them.

I saw this coming early in the invasion. I saw reports on TV, interviews with Iraqis who complained that just before the war started, Saddam distributed huge stockpiles of weapons all over the country, in residential areas, in schools, homes, etc. I remember one Iraqi complaining that the house next door to his was stockpiled with RPGs, artillery shells, and explosives, and he tried to report it to US forces so they'd haul it away and remove the hazard. But he just could not get their attention, so the weapons just sat there, and anyone could loot the stockpiles and haul away as many weapons as they could carry.
Of course it wasn't long before I started hearing reports that almost everyone in Iraq had AK-47s and RPGs stashed in their homes, for "protection."

This was the start of the resistance, and US forces let it happen. They thought that nobody would want to fight, they'd shower us with roses. Saddam planned it this way when he distributed weapons across the country. Saddam was a genius, he lost the war, but he'll win the resistance. We could have stopped it. If it was obvious to me, watching TV reports, why wasn't it obvious to forces on the ground, and their commanders?

some validity in your objections - but you ignore fact that America is not engaged in a typical colonial war which would be all about occupation and subjugation - and that in fact IS the reason we're getting screwed in Iraq - and so there is some legitimacy to Ferguson's claim. It's not about 'rivers of blood to show who's boss' but it is all the same about being the boss if ya wanna engage is wars of empire [like WW2] - and I think that's Ferguson's point. I mean all the 'security' complaints re not enough troops is just a euphemism for we lack the resources to effectively subjugate.

So, you're advocating being ore ruthless? We have been too soft on Iraqi terrorists, I agree. I'm glad to see you're coming around.

Suppose Bush made Al's case with some honesty and planned to decimate the Iraqi population (i.e. kill three million people). There would be no Republican party after that, we would be lucky if the US were still a viable nation.

Kevin, your third item: "the West is no longer willing to spill rivers of blood simply to show them who's boss" is the same as some of the argument Fergusen is making, so he's not really "absurd" in your eyes, only 2/3 absurd.

Right. Kevin views the modern West's current unwillingness to go into "river of blood" mode as a given. Ferguson is exhorting us to get past that kind of foolish, blinkered thinking, and get back to being a serious Empire, willing to spill whatever brown people's blood we need to spill.

After the British left India, India became a free and democratic state.

And it only took 190 years.

As for Ferguson, I'm reminded of the "Old Ballplayers Never Die" feature that Bill James salted throughout his Historical Baseball Abstract: quotations stretching back more than a century from retired players condemning "today's" players for not being tough enough, not knowing the fundamentals, only being in it for the money, on and on ad nauseum . . .

I hate British Carpetbaggers, looking for a new raj.

How about the American Moral Surplus. We dont want an empire. We dont need an empire. And we certianly aren't willing to sacrice ourselves for an empire.

Ferguson is a prick

Fascinating stuff by Ferguson. I wonder what would've happened if those splendid British chaps had tried to conquer Iraq? Wait a minute, they did? And it was a bloody quagmire? No shit?

And gosh, has anything changed in the world since halcyon days of the British Empire. Abundant small arms and explosives... 24/7 TV networks and the internet to spread a message... countless successful insurgencies to study and use as models... the rise of radical Islam... nothing is really coming to mind.

Niall Ferguson is a silly twat. The print media need better trolls.

Re: they fight back. The British did not fare well colonizing nations that fought back. Afghanistan ate the Brits. I would like to see the Iraqis eat Mr. Ferguson, after boiling him in oil.

Britain could do what it did because little to nothing it did was reported on locally and there was no truly representative government, as another poster has noted. This has the effect of supporting Ferguson's argument: regardless of WHY the Brits felt they could shed oceans of blood, they did in fact shed it -- and we cannot unless it is in secret.

In fact, the Lancet study has the effect of "showing" us how much blood has dried in the sands now, even if we did not directly shed a substantial portion of it. It's the exposure of these "secrets" -- Abu Ghraib and so on -- that slows down our success at bloodshed and therefore the kind of repression required to be successful in Ferguson's terms.

I think Ferguson, who in many ways is not even offensive but simply useless, is right that we lack the killer ethos. Bully to us. Ever really read about Kenya?

America's greatest contribution to the world appears to have been the concept of self-determination.

With this idea and the example of our successful revolution - Latin America threw out the Spanish, France threw out their king, and eventually, Europe lost most of their empires.

The strength of the idea of self determination is remarkable. And now that American elites want an empire - well, they probably wish the idea had never been put out there.

Our modern, culturally diverse polity and free trde economy also makes empire more difficult.

There are significant voting blocs who are likely to get seriously pissed as we go mucking around in their homeland; and since we really ought not blow up trading partners, just who the hell can we subjegate for empire? Iceland?

Frankly, I find it fascinating that great American patriots like Al, Hawk, and so many others are publicly standing up for everything that America symbolizes:

Killing vast numbers of innocent people

Torturing people

Subjugating and enslaving entire populations

Truly, with such moral superiority going for us, we would be remiss if we did not issue our brave fighting men and women special belt buckles bearing the inscription "Gott Mit Uns."

Sieg Heil!

This was the start of the resistance, and US forces let it happen. They thought that nobody would want to fight, they'd shower us with roses. Saddam planned it this way when he distributed weapons across the country. Saddam was a genius, he lost the war, but he'll win the resistance. We could have stopped it. If it was obvious to me, watching TV reports, why wasn't it obvious to forces on the ground, and their commanders?

Posted by: charlie don't surf on October 24, 2006 at 12:38 PM

The cynic would say that Bushco knew there would be an insurgency so that the war in Iraq and the 'war on terror' would last for decades. More money for the profiteers.

American incompetence at its best.

And it IS true.

The People of everywhere the British took over were unwilling to be ruled by outsiders either. Difference is, they were supplying arms to them with one hand and fighting them with the other

Americans need to grow up and get a clue.

Ferguson is apparently unaware that the age of colonialism is over. We can't do what the British did a century ago because the world won't stand for it. It is simply not possible for this country, no matter how rich we were or with how much popular support, to act like the imperial powers did 100 years ago. Has he ever heard of the concept of "nationalism"? And universities are actually competing for this guy?

Craigie - it's true Ferguson connects empire building to the export of the motherland's citizens. But he's misguided. I know, big surprise.

The first British Empire did happily export its surplus population to the western colonies, until it needed them to industrialize. Then they tried to impose serious restrictions. But after the French and Indian War with its major land wins, and the subsequent American Revolution, Britain discovered that empire-building was far more efficient if you simply went where the people already were. Indeed, it succeeded in de-industrializing India in the process.

Cheers,

I though you accept a death toll of ~200k Iraqis as a result of the American occupation. Are you saying that this numbers demonstrates reluctance to shed Iraqi blood? What would the number have to be to successfully quail insurgency?
The problems are not unwillingness to kill your enemy; it is that killing one of them produces 10 new ones. The Israeli’s have been fighting the same war for 40 years with no success.
Your other point is that insurgents have the tools and power to succeed is also no based on evidence. The US is still occupying their country that would hardly be classified as success. Note also that the same is true for the Israeli straggle.

As the philosopher Vizzini said:

"Never fight a land war in Asia."

BTW: When is a timetable not bad for US interests in Iraq?

When...

U.S.and Iraq Agrees To Timetable Iraqi leaders have agreed to develop a timeline by the end of the year for progress in stabilizing Iraq, U.S. officials said. Also, the top U.S. commander in Iraq said Iraqi forces should be able to take full control of security in 12-18 months.

From CBS News

The main difference is a leveling in the weapons available at the low end. When the British ruled its empire, the battle was largely between rifles and sticks. Today, insurgents can acquire sophisticated firearms and explosives, that are the equal of frontline infantry, from any number of vendors. Where the weapons are truly unequal, at the high end, the difference in firepower is fairly useless unless you are absolutely ruthless, which Americans, thankfully, are not.

I don't think these are exclusive arguments; certainly the couch potato and lack of attention span theories have something to recommend them. Along with the complete unwillingness to learn languages.

Cranky

Colonization is doing just fine: it's just reversed, for the former colonies are colonizing the 19th century bad guys now. Look at the present demographics in Europe -- and its future. Look at South American drug criminals at work in North America making slaves out of US citizens, not to mention millions of illegal immigrants. I don't see immigrants who want to become Europeans or Americans in those lots. I see colonizers.

If tens of thousands of Europeans went to a Middle Eastern country, even Turkey, and wanted their "rights", what do you think they would get? If tens of thousands of Americans went to a Mexican city and wanted English in the schools and all sorts of public services, what do you think they would get in reply?

Etc. Etc. Iraq was never, ever about imperialism or colonialism. It was a misguided anti-terrorist operation. Colonialism is something entirely different, and it is not even close to being a policy in the US.

Written by a Canadian. We are the canary in the mine, so to speak, and we are not about to keel over, for there is no poison gas of imperialism emanating from the US. Don't be hoodwinked.

The main argument againt the column should be that it's not in the least desirable for any country to have an empire. So it's moot whether the Americans have the stomach for it or the capability to manage one.

Amusing...One of Ferguson's columns on the sidebar is titled The Myopia of Hindsight...which is what I think of when I read his analysis of current events through his 'conservative' filter of history.

Interesting choice in comparing the British Empire's colonizing practice to the US invasion and occupation of Iraq...Perhaps because building Imperial America was the intent all along?...Iraq as the 51st state, or, more likely, an economic colony? Bet that would go over big with middle America...War for fun and profit...

The lack of condemnation of empire-building coming from Ferguson..or Kev..is disturbing. Y'all are debating whether the methods used to carry out a decision were faulty and unrealistic rather than whether or not the decision itself was sound.

on the rare occasions when they rebelled the British (like all the other European colonial powers) felt free to crush them in the most brutal manner imaginable.

Ummm...you mean like the indigenous peoples of North Anerica for example? And that, by and large and after the late 1790's, wasn't 'the British', folks.

The way we amassed our domestic empire - Manifest Destiny' - was a pretty bloody and brutal undertaking.

And American behavior abroad hasn't exactly been benign.

Colonials also fight back because they know that western nations will never start butchering the populations. After we butchered our OWN populations in the World Wars we realized that kind of thing was a very bad idea.

It's not so much that it's wrong, but that it leaves out by far the most important reason for American failure: today's colonials fight back. Britain occupied India with a tiny force because the Indians mostly let them, and on the rare occasions when they rebelled the British (like all the other European colonial powers) felt free to crush them in the most brutal manner imaginable.

No, no, no. Flatly wrong. Yesterday's colonials fought back as well. (It would take me paragraphs and paragraphs to list the many wars and uprisings the British had to fight to conquer and keep their empire). The reason the British were able to do so in the past, and we are not in the present, is due to the lessening of the technology and industrialization gap.

In the 19th century, the British, armed with the most up to date weaponry of the day, and with the tremendous advantages in logistics, supply, communications, medicine, etc. that a modern industrial economy could supply, were quite simply able to overpower their African, Asian and Australiasian opponents, many of whom were armed with only spear and shield. Remember the popular music-hall ditty when Kitchener went to war against the Mahdist forces in Sudan in the 1890s: "whatever happens/ we have got/ the Maxim gun/ and they have not."

In the present day, however, we face opponents who while no match for us on the open battlefield, where we still maintain the edge with our airpower and tanks, have access to sophisticated explosives and small arms, which, especially in crowded urban environments, can even the odds considerably.

A 19th century Pathan armed with dagger and jezail could do nothing against a British warship. A 21st century Pashtun armed with a speedboat crammed with C4 can sink an American destroyer. There's the difference in a nutshell.

I see Keith beat me to the Maxim gun line. Sorry, Keith.

... it leaves out by far the most important reason for American failure: today's colonials fight back.

Sometimes the colonials fought back against the Brits: the 1839 opium war, the boxer rebellion, the Afghanistan war. Sometimes it was other colonials fighting back, as in the Boer war. Britain used the Powell doctine, which sometimes worked.

Remember Kipling:
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Or from the war in Sudan
So ’ere’s to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your ’ome in the Soudan;
You’re a pore benighted ’eathen but a first-class fightin’ man;
An’ ’ere’s to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your ’ayrick ’ead of ’air—
You big black boundin’ beggar—for you broke a British square!

Kevin writes: This is an absurd argument. It's not so much that it's wrong, but that it leaves out by far the most important reason for American failure: today's colonials fight back.

It is indeed an absurd argument, but not because of the reason cited by Kevin (yesterday's colonials fought back, too, they just didn't win very often.). The main reason is: unlike imperial Britain, the USA does not engage in wholesale slaughther. If America acted in the same manner as its imperial predecessor, places like Sadr City and Ramadi would be smoldering ruins, and large concentration camps would be home to tens of thousands of Iraqis.

We're not able or willing to act in this manner, and that's why we should refrain from active empire management.

The main reason is: unlike imperial Britain, the USA does not engage in wholesale slaughther.

Er, the American Indians, the Filipinos, the inhabitants of Berlin, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Vietnamese might disagree with you about our propensity for wholesale slaughter.

If America acted in the same manner as its imperial predecessor, places like Sadr City and Ramadi would be smoldering ruins,

What the fuck? Fallujah was a smoldering ruin. The city was almost completely wiped and depopulated out after our attack on it in November 2004. According to Mike Marqusee of Iraq Occupation Focus writing in the Guardian, "Fallujah's compensation commissioner has reported that 36,000 of the city's 50,000 homes were destroyed, along with 60 schools and 65 mosques and shrines," and only 30% of the inhabitants who lived the pre-attack have returned.

We could rule Iraq if we wanted to, but I don't think that was one of the administration's ambitions.

The war was due to a perfect storm of Bush wanting to get Saddam, Jewish neocons pressing for regime change across the Arab world for the sake of Israel, a couple of hardass non-Jewish neocons (Cheney and Rumfeld) in sync with the program, political correctness (an affirmative action Nat. Sec. Advisor--compare to how Brent Scowcroft kept Bush I from making the same mistake. A PC belief that the Iraqi people "are just like us" and craved democracy and feminism), listening to intelligence the administration wanted to hear, etc.

Wishful thinking allowed the administration to believe they could achieve their goals without having to rule Iraq subsequently. 30-90 day occupation, install Chalabi, and on to Syria.

Might have been a successful occupation if we had used the Iraqi army as Jay Garner wanted to.

"Crushing terrorists." What an evocative phrase. Could we use tanks? Pile drivers? Large dump trucks? Industrial food mixers? And, how do we get them to sit still while we crush them? And, what do we do with them after we've crushed them. Make compost? What a strange notion this "crushing terrorists" thing is.

"What made a difference was sea power, and the ability of the Brits to bring ships and men to the shores of a distant country and stick it out."

"... America is not engaged in a typical colonial war which would be all about occupation and subjugation"

"We dont want an empire. We dont need an empire. And we certianly aren't willing to sacrice ourselves for an empire."

These three comments are on to something. Americans would not support "taking over" another country indefinitely, which was the British goal.

It is so foreign to our self-image that the "best and brightest" of the Republican't Party didn't even plan for being the government of Iraq. They just assumed, I guess, that a government would bloom in the desert like a million flowers, or something.

The British set up efficient governments along military superiority. And the governments they set up often succeeded, albeit with some changes, after the British themselves were forced out.

Yancey Ward: The main difference is a leveling in the weapons available at the low end.

Stefan: The reason the British were able to do so in the past, and we are not in the present, is due to the lessening of the technology and industrialization gap.

That's only part of it. Prior to the mid-19th century, "modern" land weapons just weren't very effective. Much fighting was still done with bayonets. Between the Napoleanic Wars and the American Civil War there were great improvements in firearms (percussion caps, more accurately machined parts, "minnie" ball, early metallic cartridges and repeating firearms). Much of the slaughter during the Civil War occured because commanders were still using Napoleanic era tactics (charging in formation, frontal assaults).

However, much of the British conquest of India occured before these technological changes. It started in earnest in the mid-18th century, with Robert Clive. This despite the fact that they'd been in India since the 17th century. The key factor was disunity amongst the Indian states after the breakup of the Mughal Empire.

The navy certainly played an important logistical role, but its firepower was mostly for use against other European powers. Inland the navy played little role (something about needing water).

Divide and conquer was a key British tactic. They also were generally smart enough not to attack until a weakened potential adversary presented an easy opportunity.

Furthermore, they were happier to buy influence in a client state than fight a war. Even in its heyday about 1/3 of the British Raj was actually client states. Rajas are cheaper than bullets.

The people of Iraq are flatly unwilling to be ruled by outsiders, they have the weaponry to fight back effectively,

Bingo. They have the weaponry their ancestors didn't. That's the difference right there.

and the West is no longer willing to spill rivers of blood simply to show them who's boss.

We're not willing to spill rivers of blood merely to show whose boss? Then where'd those 600,000 Iraqis go?

No, the truth is we're still more than willing to spill the blood -- we're just not willing to admit to ourselves that that's what we're actually doing, or to show it on the news. But if it's out of sight, then it's out of mind, and we're not going to worry our beautiful minds with it....

Does this mean we aren't going to invade the rest of the Middle East?!?

That's only part of it. Prior to the mid-19th century, "modern" land weapons just weren't very effective. Much fighting was still done with bayonets.

It wasn't just the weaponry, it was several other factors which made the weaponry effective, including:

(1) Organization -- the ability to field a modern professional army, organized along regimental lines, well-supplied with uniforms, food, medicine, etc.

(2) Transport -- having a navy which could bring reinforcements of men and material around the globe.

(3) Communication -- being able to communicate with London through the telegraph and, before that, through the navy.

These three comments are on to something. Americans would not support "taking over" another country indefinitely, which was the British goal.

the Wraith of the High Plains is quite often very succinct and to the point. And a sharp point it is.

The goose of empire has traditionally been cooked in the furnace of current events. The Revolution in North America inspired the Bolivarean revolutions of South America. WW I convinced third-world elites that European civilization wasn't that great, and WW II showed that "oriental" troops could beat white troops.

Now, thanks to the inspiring leadership of George Bush, it becomes evident that would-be imperialists can be defeated even by occupied populations. This lesson, I'm sure, will not be lost on other people, in the region, and in the world.

Ferguson needs to be locked in a room and made to copy out in longhand "Shooting an Elephant" until the notion of the romance and duty of empire is driven out of his brain.

And you beat me with your point, Stefan.

Even though the technological disparity between the colonizers and colonized was greater in the 19th and early-20th centuries, resistence still had an impact in terms of lives, the Indian Mutiny, Afghanistan Campaigns, Mahdi Rebellion in Sudan, and the original Iraq occupation, just to name a few, were all highly costly in for the British in terms of lives (and for the "subjects" as well). And if you want to throw in the Easter Uprising and the Boer Wars there are tens of thousands more dead British. All of this is on a scale that we haven't seen in Iraq in terms of American deaths (thankfully).

Also, I think the point about Britain halting immigration at some point early on is wrong and misplaced. Emigration from the British Isles to the US, Canada and Australia was high up through the latter half of the 19th century, well after Industrialization took place. But anyway, Ferguson doesn't mean colonization like that, he means the colonial apparatus. Britain sent huge amounts of administrators and military around the globe to manage their empire. These were mostly low and middle-income Scots who saw serving the empire as a chance for advancement.

the West is no longer willing to spill rivers of blood simply to show them who's boss

Incredibly, some see this as a step backwards. Yes, I'm looking at you, Dr. Krauthammer.

Stefan: the inhabitants of Berlin, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki

None of which were done in the pursuit of empire (though some of your other examples hold up). Wholesale slaughter is more acceptable to most Americans, including me, when you're fighting an enemy that quite literally wants, and very well may, conquer the world.

That aside, area bombing is just not very effective. It kills lots of people but doesn't do that much to disrupt production and transport.

That's why the USAAF concentrated more on industrial/military/transport targets in Europe. Much more effective, as attested to by Albert Speer. The British concentrated on area bombing, as they restricted their less heavily armed planes to night operations. Of course that changed towards the end, when we ran out of industrial targets (the really choice ones having literally gone underground). Dresden was a joint Anglo-American operation.

Japan was a different matter. The atomic bombings were an effective way to end the war. They certainly saved American lives, and probably Japanese ones as well.

Prior to that though LeMay concentrated on area bombing cities. It killed many more people than the atomic bombings, and I question how effective it was. If the atomic bombings hadn't occured, there were plans to switch to attacking transport.

Stefan: Organization ... Transport ... Communication

All are important in warfare, and always have been (they were key Roman advantages too). However, transport and communication (by ship) just nullify some of the home court advantage enjoyed by the country being invaded. Organization was very effective in many British allies. See, for example, the Anglo-Mysore or the Anglo-Zulu wars.

But if the Mughal Empire hadn't broken up, there never would have been a British Raj (at least up north). Similarly, without China's internal problems there would have been no Opium Wars.

These three comments are on to something. Americans would not support "taking over" another country indefinitely, which was the British goal.

Oh really?

Apologize if someone mentioned this already, but one big difference is instant, or near instant, communication. Back in the days of Britishempire, images were not caught on camera and were in places deemed pretty remote where they could be easily covered up. This helped in beating down of the ruled to keep themunder control. Considering there is now not just TeeVee but telephone, telephone cameras, IM, internets, the Google, it makes it hard for the empire to callously beat down the ruled without being caught, and despised.

The Kingdom of Hawaii: Oh really?

Hawaii was one of the last. Taking over whole countries started here on the East Coast. However, sensibilities have changed somewhat.

It also does not count the technological advantages the Brits had over the people they were colonizing. Once that advantage disappeared,
the natives inevitably rebelled and wanted to control their own destiny. There is a line in the movie Becket where Thomas Becket says to Henry II that an occupying power that lasts should never conquer the natives it must corrupt them. Clearly, no one planning the invasion saw the movie.

But they figured out corruption pretty well all by themselves, Aline - there is $800 Million of $1.2 Billion missing from Iraqi coffers.

Ferguson's book was actually a fairly good one for a drooling type, and his reasons for the decline of the American Empire were pretty good. As in his point about the manpower deficit. England and Rome had strict primogeniture. That meant an abundance of younger sons who had to go elsewhere -- India, Burma Kenya, Iraq, etc -- to earn a living. The class of Americans who should be off helping to foment Democracy and representative government are going instead to Wall St., K-Street, Exxon, etc. We've snarked at length about the number (3) of Arabists in the State Department, but there's not simply few Arabists, there's few anything. The tighty-righties -- the guys who allegedly really believe in American Centuries -- haven't simply avoided service in the military. They haven't left the country at all.

Oh really?

You said it!

"America is by far a net importer of people - so where's the motivation to go out and colonize other lands? It's just not there. I mean, do they even have malls in Iraq? If not, I'm sure not living there, no matter how flat the taxes."
__________________

craigie's hit it. Despite all the hyperventilating about an American Empire, the truth is that there is little interest and no incentive in having an empire. TV advertising works just as well and costs less.

Wapiti at 12:50: America's greatest contribution to the world appears to have been the concept of self-determination.

Jasper at 1:55: The main reason is: unlike imperial Britain, the USA does not engage in wholesale slaughter.

Even at the height of the British Empire's strength, the British were more enlightened and respectful of human rights than the United States was at the time.

That's why Sitting Bull led his people into Canada from the US in 1877. He knew that whatever else the Sioux might face in the British Empire, they would at least be better off there under the aegis of "the Great Mother", Queen Victoria, than they would be in the land of the genocidal maniacs to the south.

And there was the underground railroad, another example of people fleeing from the US into the British Empire in search of freedom and a better life.

In fact, one reason the British won so many imperial contests was because they were more likely to have alliances with the natives. They typically had more native allies in North America than the Dutch, French or Americans did, and they had these allies because, while they don't seem that nice by today's standards, they were usually better than the alternatives of the day.

The US used to play the overseas empire game too. What changed is that everybody, the British included, figured out that it's a lot cheaper to outsource imperial control by installing friendly governments in places like Iran or Kuwait, governments that would continue to offer stable, relatively easy access to that country's resources, than it is to run an old-fashioned empire.

anandine wrote:

... it leaves out by far the most important reason for American failure: today's colonials fight back.

Sometimes the colonials fought back against the Brits: the 1839 opium war, the boxer rebellion, the Afghanistan war. Sometimes it was other colonials fighting back, as in the Boer war.
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Truth. The resistance to British colonialism was often very fierce. The British absorbed numerous bloody defeats, usually fought outnumbered, and were often ill-supported. The difference was that the British were willing to take such losses as simply the cost of doing business. Their response to defeat was to send a larger, better equipped army. And another one after that, if need be.

Camel Thongs Don’t Cut the Mustard
“Lookee here Mister Chief Native, I’ll trade you guns and firewater for the land you call “Gusher Canyon”. You know which area I mean, where we put up those oil derricks years ago.”
“Sorry, today is a Sacred Day, ’all praise to Mother Bear‘.”
“Look, screw a bunch of Sacred Days, we’ll throw in fifty aisles worth of jeans. Your daughters will love em, especially the low hippers so’s their little belly buttons can get some air.”
“Not possible, today is sacred day, ‘bless brother antelope.’”
“All right, for Christ sake, you’re killing us. We’ll give you guns, firewater, three Wal Mart’s of enticing jeans, a gross of Estee Bauder nipple and labia piercing Pierce-o-matic Pro Guns, ten tattoo parlors fully equipped and an era’s long subscription to Rap music from both the “Dysfunction Is Me’ and “Misogyny Rocks” labels. And you get bison and camel thongs. Camel thongs from “Allah’s Little Secret” label in every color under the sun. Now do we have a deal?”
“Today is Sacred. All praise our ancestors.”
“Praise your arse. I’ll be back tomorrow. We’re not going away, you know that.”
“Tomorrow is a sacred day.”
“Up your sacred days.”
“Everyday is a sacred day, kneel and bow to the East.”
“Bullshit on your every day is a sacred day horse pucky. You can stick Mother Bear you know where. There’s something you guys want and I’m gonna find out what.”
“Everyday is a sacred day. However.....”
“Yes, yes sacred, totally sacred, but ‘however’ what? You son of a sacred snake, ‘however’ what? What is it you’re considering?”
“Well, remember that line of fissionable material you showed me.... maybe just one more little peek.”
“Tex’, help, we done got us a problem. We’re gonna be here til the cows come home and listen to me for once, jeans and camel thongs are not cuttin’ the mustard.”
"Bubba, shut your trap with the mustard bullshit. These fucks don't have hot dogs. Even I know that."

"Camel Thongs Don"t Cut the Mustard"

The difference was that the British were willing to take such losses as simply the cost of doing business. Their response to defeat was to send a larger, better equipped army. And another one after that, if need be.

That’s a very interesting statement. It’s an accurate description of British response to the American Revolutionary War, but it didn’t work out for them, did it? But it’s always interesting what someone chooses to highlight.

What I choose to highlight is the point about spilling rivers of blood. I think that it is unarguably true that it is today more difficult to get away with slaughtering scores of people, especially when the war is not about national survival.

The many thousands lost in Iraq are atrocious and I think that some of the above commenters misinterpret Kevin’s statement. But by the standards of past centuries, 10, 20, 30 times (just name a huge number) that number of Iraqis may have been slaughtered with impunity.

Today, it’s much harder to hide the number, much harder to throw out some bullshit justification, just much harder to do it with impunity. And boy is that a good thing.

It also strikes me how much farther we need to go down the road toward establishing humane societies. Look at the resistance to information like the Lancet study. Why? It seeks to answer a hugely important question. Why not do as some have suggested and spend a little money on follow-up studies. Why this fear of information?

Kevin

1. Many people in the comments have cited your first historical mistake: the technological advantage Europeans enjoyed over the native inhabitants was huge.

*however* in the case of India this is not so clear. The likes of Tipoo Sahib had modern, European trained armies. He pioneered the modern use of tactical rockets-- the British actually copied from him.

In guerilla type situations (first and second Afghan wars, the Ghurka wars) this technological advantage was nonexistent, and the British lost (or made peace). *this* is very similar to the modern situation -- irregular warfare erodes the advantage of technology. Hence our experience in Palestine in 1949, when the Israelis drove us out, and our not particularly successful struggle with the IRA.

2. A greater advantage we had was superior organisational force. European armies were, by and larger, more disciplined and better organised and led.

(this advantage hasn't changed: the US Army is a far more elite force than any in the modern Middle East in a conventional fight. Even the Jordanians wouldn't be able to stop it. And the Israelis are arguably a western army operating in the Middle East).

3. the third, and key, factor in the British Empire you have completely overlooked.

It was an *Empire* with mercenary armies-- Irish, Scots, Ghurkas to name but 3. The Indian Army was the largest Army in the Empire, larger than the motherland's, and fought in almost every colonial war.

Before there was an Indian Army, there were the sepoys. Even during the Great Mutiny, there were a large number of Indians fighting with the British against their countrymen.

And there were other mercenary and colonial forces. The Ghurkas, the Irish (utterly key to every British military campaign from 1700 onwards), the Scots (ditto), later on the Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders (all key in the Boer War, and both world wars), the Kings African Rifles, the Carribean Regiment.

Something like 100,000 Indians died on the Western Front in WWI. Not to mention all the ones who died invading Iraq in 1915!

In the American Revolution, we had Hessians.

Are we in Iraq for colonialism? I thought we were there for democracy.

What did the Brits tell their soldiers about the mission of occupying the colonies?

Well, it's Tommy this and Tommy that, and step outside you brute,
but it's Tommy bleedin' 'ero when the guns begin to shoot...

Ferguson is just disappointed in the U.S.A. for not wanting to wallow in the glorious excesses that comes with being a power worthy of Empire. That the American people do not yearn to rule the world and make it over in its own image is a let down for Niall; we are just not living up to his expectations.

While it's true that colonials many times fought back against the British, they didn't have AK-47s. I'd say Kalashnikov did more than any man to put third world forces on a stronger position in relation to first world armies. That, and mortars and personal anti-tank cannons and 4th generation warfare and all that.

"other mercenary and colonial forces. The Ghurkas, the Irish (utterly key to every British military campaign from 1700 onwards), the Scots (ditto),"

Doubt that the scots or irish soldiers would have regarded themselves as mercenaries.

"Even during the Great Mutiny, there were a large number of Indians fighting with the British against their countrymen"

Except of course in 1856 the loyal 'indians' would
certainly not have regarded the mutineers as being 'countrymen'. They would have different languages, religions etc.

"Something like 100,000 Indians died on the Western Front in WWI."

Nah, less than half that died in the whole war and then mostly in the middle east.Very few indian troops served on the western front.

So Kevin now views Iraqi and Al Qaeda terrorists killing innocents as "colonials." What makes Kevin and other liberals so irrational on Iraq and military issues?

brian wrote: "What makes Kevin and other liberals so irrational on Iraq and military issues?"

Dear heart, since your post made absolutely no sense whatsoever and did not even remotely describe the views of Kevin or any other "liberal," forgive us if we ask you instead just what it is that makes you so irrational?

To get us moving toward an empire, neocons promised an empire on the cheap -- i.e. using low manpower and low expenditures -- but they would be just as happy with an empire built through massive manpower/firepower and debt. Whether or not we could build an empire, as you seem to think we can't because of resistance and Ferguson believes we can't because of strategic and practical defects, is beside the point of whether we should be in that business at all.

Ferguson and some of the commenters above (eg Pale Rider) have got good points. The US has not committed enough manpower to Iraq and does not have the political will to do so - its not a loss of 'native' life that abhors the US, it is the loss of their own.

The question of the US's financial deficit seems to have short shrift also in the comments. Britain got a huge profit out of Empire as the sole industrial nation in the world for a brief period - that phenomenal growth built their empire. (Note: this is after losing the US, it may be useful to consider British Empire v1 which includes the American colonies and v2 which was the more successful industrialised empire).

Even in the 1850s, Marx was predicting empires would be difficult to maintain in the future as more nations became industrialised and democratic. It would appear that was a good call. The margins have been squeezed on imperialism!

I cannot accept that attention deficiency has a part to play, however. The Internets mean more members of the public are informed and commenting upon these matters than any citizen of any former empire ever has.

Two major features of the British Empire are also getting little mention here. 'Divide and rule' - creating a bureuacracy and government from cliques of mixed-blood or minority groups who could not side with the 'natives' as the majority would never accept them (eg. Burghers of Sri Lanka). Also the British thoroughly believed they were exporting 'civilisation' and set up schools and infrastructure. Like the Python sketch about 'what did the Romans ever do for us?' - empires cannot sustain if they only serve the imperial city - there has to be a WIIFM quotient for the oppressed.

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brian - are you here? I permalinked the conversation we were having the other night that you ran away from. I even blogged the whole thing here. I'm still waiting for my "eureka' moment that will allow me to see clearly and accept all this shit and stop fretting about things like constitational abrogatin and illegal war. Please, by all means, enlighten me. I need a good nights sleep. So make me understand why everything that is happening is a-o-kay.

brian? I'm still waiting. Why, exactly do the terrorists want the Dems to win? Hmmm? that was your position and you failed to state your case. The whole thing is here.