Thank Allah for the ACLU protecting terrorists.

We have to give up our freedoms for security! There is no other way! The terrorists are a far bigger threat than the Nazis or Commies!

Thank God for the ACLU.

Filling in for the vacancy left by the Dem Party to provide some push-back to the Fascist Repukes.

Oh man, it'll be great if the ACLU wins and prevents this administration from obtaining informtion about terrorists. Anybody considered investigating them, tos ee if they're getting any terrorist money?

If you were Bin Ladin, would you want the ACLU to win or lose this case?

Oh please. The ACLU advocates for the Constitution. Whats in the world is wrong with that?

Global Citizen-- They advocate for their warped version of the constitution, where fetuses have no rights, but terrorists must have their right to privacy zealously protected.

Put another way, I assume you have no problem with the NRA or HGA? After all, they just advocate for the constitution! Right?

Oh please. "Their warped version of the Constitution"? Puh-lease.

Nobody has ever daid one fucking word about protecting terrorists rights. They have, however, said thet the President has a working set of rules that he needs to obey. We interdicted and prosecuted terrorists under the Vlinton administration with them, and put the perpetrators in jail. The constitution was safe.

And the Supreme Court decided that women's rights cuperceded the rights of the fetus.

Better spin-meisters please.

If you were Bin Ladin, would you want the ACLU to win or lose this case?

If I was Bin Ladin I'd probably want sunny weather, a warm place to sleep, and a nice rack of lamb. Therefore, I'm going to make a point of sleeping out in the rain and eating dog food this month.

Globe:

I can tell how righteously pissed you were when you banged out that message (and I don't blame you) because of all the typos ...

Bob

asdf:

*chuckling*

Bob

Amy Sullivan: stupid, weak, or simply paid off?

What did Amy do?

Bob - *blushing*

But yeah, the Constitution is a fetish of mine. I get really hot under the collar when some morin advocates throwing it in the shredder.

Oh man, it'll be great if the ACLU wins and prevents this administration from obtaining informtion about terrorists.

The administration absolutely should obtain information about potential terrorists, it should just do so with judicial oversight.

Next issue.

If these people believe waterboarding isn't torture, why doesn't someone ask them to demonstrate it?

Thanks for continuing to hit yourselves in the head with a hammer, guys. How do you answer the complaint that everything you object to is already allowed against suspected drug dealers or organized crime figures, but you want to tie the hands of the diabolical Bush and Rove when it comes to the poor misunderstood terrorists.

The ACLU never really challenged the Patriot Act. They passed when it came out. NO money. So, now they've done there 'job' and want money some other place.

Global Citizen-- They advocate for their warped version of the constitution, where fetuses have no rights, but terrorists must have their right to privacy zealously protected.
Posted by: American Hawk

well ... since fetuses are hardly independant persons living and interacting in the same world as the rest of us, then of COURSE the constitution should be appropriately silent about such nonentities. It does, however, make a point about actual humans -- even those accused of a crime -- and how America should deal with them.

... and I'm not sure which 3rd world country you hail from, but in America, accusations of a crime are not evidence of guilt. especially when the accusations are made my the same asshats which have thus far not gotten anything right about terrorism.

Listening to such --- well, stupid, frankly -- people can get you into trouble.

Let me fix that last bit for you mhr: The ACLU a radical left wing outfit whose aims the vast majority of Americans do not agree with until it is their ox getting gored.

Thanks for continuing to hit yourselves in the head with a hammer, guys. How do you answer the complaint that everything you object to is already allowed against suspected drug dealers or organized crime figures, but you want to tie the hands of the diabolical Bush and Rove when it comes to the poor misunderstood terrorists.
Posted by: minion of rove

seriously ... is this true? This is a real question, one which you assert and therefore may have data to back up ... despite the fact that you're a torture-apologising mouth breathing racist.

is there evidence that we routinely allow law enforcement to waterboard and otherwise torture drug dealers and mafiosi? why do I suspect that the lawyers of such would have objections to that ... and that you are making this up and are otherwise completely full of shit?

I'm willing to be wrong, however, provided you actually show some basis for the assertion.

Law enforcement is usually pretty carefula about how they collect the evidence of those who can afford "good" lawyers and stick to the rules lest their evidence be thrown out of court. How the fuck do you arrive at some of these positions?

How do you answer the complaint that everything you object to is already allowed against suspected drug dealers or organized crime figures, but you want to tie the hands of the diabolical Bush and Rove when it comes to the poor misunderstood terrorists.

This complaint is answered by showing that the allegation is false. The same measures are available for gaining intel on terrorists as are available for investigating organized crime:

http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/031027cdt.shtml

The problem is the administration's curious avoidance of judicial oversight, being a nation of laws and not men and all that.

Also, Rove is not a member of the DOJ. Is there some reason he is involved in wiretapping "poor misunderstood terrorists"? Maybe that is part of the problem.

Keep in mind that it's career NSA guys who blew the whistle on illegal wiretapping, not the ACLU.

Instapundit links ominously...

Booga booga.

Calm down, Kevin.

Don't let jealousy get the better of you.

This is too funny. Apple-Bobbing at the Cheney's

If you were Bin Ladin, would you want the ACLU to win or lose this case?

I would like to see the ACLU lose this case. It is imperative to support the Bush administration. They are inept beyond belief. More tax cuts for the wealthy to destroy the social fabric are also seen in this quarter as a strategic goal. If the Bush administration declared a martial emergency and cancelled the elections in 2008, my heart would weep with joy.

Allah akbur! All praise George Bush!!!

Kevin,

Anything happening in Oregon lately?

What's with all the trolls? Was there a trackback?

Sandals-- No, global citizen is always here.

minion of rove wrote: "How do you answer the complaint that everything you object to is already allowed against suspected drug dealers or organized crime figures, but you want to tie the hands of the diabolical Bush and Rove when it comes to the poor misunderstood terrorists."

Well, mostly by laughing, since the assertion is not only false, it's pretty stupid.

I was a long-time member of the ACLU in my liberal days. They have the same problem as some good-government conservative organizations: they have to raise money to survive. People will donate more money for a group on their side than for a pure googoo group. So, little by little, the ACLU has moved left, just as conservative googoo groups have moved right.

E.g., their support for the Bill of Rights has mostly dwindled down to Freedom of Speech and Separation of Church and State. But, support for abortion rights trumps their support for free speech. That is, they support keeping anti-abortion demonstrators far away from the patients. And, SOCAS isn't actually in the Constitution.

One place where they did support Free Speech was McCain Feingold "Campaign Finance Reform." They appropriately opposed it on free speech grounds, but they didn't make much of a fuss, because it was a liberal bill.

American Hawg,

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/hogzilla.asp

Democrats can take the high road and restore pride and Law to our government.

Vote Democratic, vote to restore our pride in America.

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Instapundit sees politics and conspiracies where no one else with a brain would. Of course Malkin and the rest share Insta's afflication. They take the advice of the VP - "It's a no brainer."

http://www.correntewire.com/republican_people_of_the_lie_must_disgorge_the_abu_ghraib_child_rape_photos_videos_judge_rules

Who are the terrorists again?

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The trolls are out in force because they are authoritarians and literally hate us for our liberties. They hate the ACLU for defending those liberties.

They feel that the authorities know what's best for us, so we should obey them. Civil liberties only protect criminals and terrorists, so we shouldn't have them.

Who cares? Nicky Hayden is World Champion today!!!!!! Take that Eurowussies.

That's Instadickhead for you.

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这里有名言警句 名言警句
他是兽人皇帝grubby 兽族皇帝grubbyorc,fighting!
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The ACLU a radical left wing outfit whose aims the vast majority of Americans do not agree with. mhr at 2:48 PM

...At times, the ACLU has defended positions that run counter to liberal thought. In some cases, they have defended groups normally found at the right of the political spectrum, like Christian groups, and ultra-conservatives. Sometimes, they defend groups too far to the left to classify as liberal, such as Marxists and militant labor leaders. The ACLU also maintains a neutral position on some topics, like gun control laws. One of the cornerstones of ACLU philosophy is actually very conservative -- a strict interpretation of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

This policy sometimes leads to cases where the Union defends unpopular people and organizations. The Union has taken on cases to defend the free speech rights of clients as diverse as Ku Klux Klan members, neo-Nazi groups, North American Man/Boy Love Association ...and the Westboro Baptist Church.... In these and other cases, the ACLU has defended the free speech rights of people and organizations even when the content of that speech is in conflict with the ACLU's own positions and goals.
The ACLU also defended Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North[55], whose conviction was tainted by coerced testimony—a violation of his fifth amendment rights.
KKK, neo-Nazi, Oliver North, NAMBLA (Bill O'Reilly's favorite group) Westboro, all fine Republican types

And, SOCAS isn't actually in the Constitution.… ex-liberal at 5:05 PM

And, SOCAS isn't actually in the Constitution...

of The Model Train Engineers Guild of America.

mhr "The ACLU a radical left wing outfit whose aims the vast majority of Americans do not agree with."

Yeah, right. After all, it was the "radical left-wing" ACLU that:
* Convinced a federal court of appeals to overturn the conviction of that noted liberal subversive Oliver North, citing double-jeopardy; and
* Argued for the protection of medical records belonging to that well-known commie-pinko broadcaster, Rush Limbaugh, from the prying eyes of prosecutors on a fishing expedition.

Here's to hoping, mhr, that you will never find yourself in a situation where you might require the ACLU's assistance.

ex-liberal: "And, [separation of church and state] isn't actually in the Constitution."

And there's the wind-up ... and the pitch ... and it's a high fly ball deep to center field -- it's going -- going -- IT'S GONE!!!

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
-- First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

C'mon, Kevin. Can't we get better right-wing trolls here? They've obviously sent in their second string.

uggh. Instapundit and Jonah Goldberg. Now I have to go take a shower.

ik: Instapundit sees politics and conspiracies where no one else with a brain would.

Yep, those Al Gore campaign workers sure are brainless. (I bet you thought Instapundit was a conservative.)

Donal, I suggest you look up "establishment of religion" in some reference book. The 1st Amendment prohibited an official American religion, like Anglican in England. The original understanding of the First Amendment did not call for absolute separation of church and state. In fact, it didn't even prohibit a single state from having an official state religion applying that state only.

Today's equating of the establishment clause with SOCAS was a revised interpretation, introduced in series of 20th century court decisions.

American Hawk writes:

Oh man, it'll be great if the ACLU wins and prevents this administration from obtaining informtion about terrorists.

Tell me - what exactly is the ACLU advocating that prevents the administration from obtaining information about terrorists?

If you were Bin Ladin, would you want the ACLU to win or lose this case?

I am an American, and I want the ACLU to win this case, because I believe in American values. I'm not so sure you do.

Andy,

From the story (did you read that?) the ACLU is upset about a provision of the Patriot Act that authorizes national security letters, which allow the government to obtain records about suspects in terrorism and espionage investigations. You think terrorism and espionage are "American values"?

"...the ACLU is upset about a provision of the Patriot Act that authorizes national security letters, which allow the government to obtain records about suspects in terrorism and espionage investigations..."

"without a judge's approval or a grand jury subpoena."

Sorry, I was being my usual dishonest self when I left that last part off. Due process is an American value, still part of the Constitution the last time I checked.

How do you answer the complaint that everything you object to is already allowed against suspected drug dealers or organized crime figures, but you want to tie the hands of the diabolical Bush and Rove when it comes to the poor misunderstood terrorists.

Really? We kidnap and torture suspected drug dealers and organized crime figures? Subject them to forced drowning, stress positions, etc., and hold them in secret prisons overseas without charges or access to lawyers for years at a time?

Or, as usual, is this just another bald-faced lie?

Interesting idea about the powers already in the hands of the gov't. If Bush can already declare any criminal he wants an "enemy noncombatant" and vamoose them away without trial, why are there so many criminals on the loose?

Re: Stefan's post at 10:47 and mine at 11:31

It's obviously a good idea to read ALL previous posts before posting yourself.

Well, yes. My fault -- sometimes the posts are so stupid I just can't stop myself from responding....

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